![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is Toma Tomov a politician or an athlete? Не той е циганин кът всички нас, майка му насрана!
I have added a new section with this title. I have covered education in enough detail, I think, but it would certainly be useful to expand the section with more info on housing and unemployment, perhaps health too.
Moreover, да им еба на циганите, майка им проста.
No-itsme 18:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I still think, these the two passages
"ECRI has correctly observed that members of the Roma community encounter “serious difficulties” “in many spheres of life”. [...] Consequently, this allegation of ECRI is also erroneous."[8]
and
"There had never been a policy of "segregation" of Roma children in the national education system. [...] the word “segregation" with respect to Roma children is inaccurate."[11]
should be removed or paraphrased and definitely be shortened.
They are citations containing other citations from a "Skopje Report" I could not retrieve from the Internet. This causes confusion. If there is a copy of this "Skopje Report" on the net and if the citations relate to the situation of the Roma in Bulgaria it should be cited directly.
Regarding the "official position" it is also important, who defines this position; definitely not the Roma ;-) (see the paragraph I added to the article).
Anilomes 07:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that циганите тряа да са ебат в газа, майка им даеба
As for the cited material, the data are 10 years old. And there are also controversies. On the one hand, it is alleged that ethnic parties are not allowed, while on the other hand, it says that Roma parties failed to win elections for Parliament. BTW, one of the parties in the ruling coalition in Bulgaria at present is ethnic Turk which won elections to a large part due to votes coming from Turkey. Personally, I do not know another country in Europe in which a minority party is in power.
This report of POLITEA is also cited selectively in the new paragraph by failing to mention what it writes for the period after 2001, the participation of parties like EuroRoma in free elections and the reasons why they did not win more representatives (not suppression by government but heterogeity of Roma population, as the report says). The ECRI report was also cited selectively so it gives a red flag that this article (or particular sections of it) is written to serve some agenda (changing the constitution by non-parliamentary means?). This led me to an interesting question: Does the U.S. Constitution allow ethnic parties? Lantonov 08:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Update: I found the Skopje report easily в дебелят ти гъз. See it cited in the respective place in the article. It is not always positive for Bulgaria but as far as it gives space for diverging opinions, it sounds objective. Lantonov 10:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Your recent changes, indeed, are well balanced. Euroroma participated in the 2005 elections in coalition with BSP which won a majority in the National Assembly (the whole coalition). There are at least 2 MPs of Euroroma in Parliament now: Toma Tomov and Tsvetelin Tsvetkov. I am almost sure that there are more but have to find a list of MPs to tell names. Do they have a Roma or Turkish party in Germany? Do you know countries in which they have explicitly Roma parties in Parliament? As for national minorities, Roma and Turks are long ago officially given status of the largest (and increasing proportionally) minorities in Bulgaria. Which Bulgarian law forbids this status? Lantonov 12:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The Danish minority party in Germany interested me, so I found the following citation:
"The differences begin with the political histories of the two, which have been strongly divergent since the Franco-Prussian wars. In their effect upon the present situation only the political events of the past half-century will be considered here. 1945, the end of WW II, marked a turning point in the history of both communities: for the German Danes it meant a sudden drop from supreme status and power into national disgrace and stigma, for the Danish German cause a rise to power, popularity and unprecedented attractiveness, accompanied by a surge in consciousness, ethnic identity, language use and prestige of Danish south of the border. The very opposite happened to German in the north, with concomitant increases and decreases, respectively, in membership. The 'Kieler Erklärung' of 1949 further supported the Danish movement in North Germany; the demise of the German Danes in North Schleswig was not halted by similar assurances until the restoration of German sovereignty and its momentous economic recovery, which made possible the 1955 declarations 'equalizing' both minorities. For the German minority in Denmark, however, the losses were irrecoverable; for the German Danish minority Germany's rise to prominence meant a certain reduction to its committed core population. Still, the Danish minority party has managed to surpass the 5% clause and still maintains at least one representative at the supra-regional government level; the corresponding German party in Denmark has lost its seat."
Differences between Danish Party and Euroroma:
Turks in Germany do not have citizenship because Germany refuses to grant them citizenship status exactly because it does not want to accept them as a minority. Not having citizenship, they do not have a right to vote, neighter a right to found a party or participate in politics in any other way. There are more Turks permanently living in Germany than there are in Bulgaria. Compare the situation with Bulgaria, in which Turks won half of their seats in Parliament by votes driven with buses from Turkey of people with double Bulgarian-Turkish citizenship. If the Danish minority is 0,00625%, how did they win 5% of all the votes in Germany?
As for Roma MPs, read carefully the POLITEIA report. "Evroroma managed to get a vote share of 1.25 percent, which should secure it some state support and help it develop as a political organization of the Roma minority." For the "vote share of 1.25%", do a simple math. BG Parliament has 240 seats. 240 * 1.25% = 3 seats for Euroroma. There is another Roma Party, Free Bulgaria, also in coalition with BSP which has 1 seat. I told you the names of 2 Roma MPs, for the other 2 I must consult the list. Another Roma Party, DROM, participated in another coalition together with Gergyovden, that also won a Roma seat in Parliament, with MP Manush Romanov, who has been a Roma deputy for many years. So there are 4 or 5 Roma representatives in the 40th Parliament, which is now in power. Roma wouldn't win seats in Parliament if not in coalition because it could not pass 4% barrier (which in Germany is 5%), as the POLITEIA report says. Sorry but the large Roma minority in Bulgaria does not trust Roma politicians and votes for Bulgarian parties in elections. How can Roma politicians remedy the situation? Maybe import Roma votes from abroad as the Turks did. Lantonov 05:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The text in the Bulgarian Constitution is: "It is not allowed to form political parties on ethnic, racist, or religious basis, as well as parties who aim usurping the government by non-parliamentary and violent means." This means that one cannot found a party whose members can only be Roma and Bulgarians are not accepted in it, or the opposite, a Bulgarian party that does not accept Roma members. The principle of the party must be something else. For example, the Turkish party is not called "Turkish party" but "Movement for rights and freedoms". It is not founded on ethnic principles but on liberal centrist ideology. It is even a member of the Liberal International. It is open to all ethnicities and in fact in recent years it accepted as members a number of prominent politicians of Bulgarian ethnicity which it put on high position in central and regional government. However, as we see, Roma in Bulgaria are not united in their political views and support parties with divergent political aims. Lantonov 06:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find a list of MPs with their party membership in the page of the Bulgarian Parliament. Lantonov 07:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
"At the 2005 elections, this trend continued. The BSP alliance run Tomov on their lists, the ODS alliance included another Roma organization, DROM, and Evroroma ran alone, failing to win representation in Parliament. As a result, there is currently only 1 Roma representative in the Bulgarian Parliament."
Please see the above citation from the POLITEA source, which is used here for determining the number of Roma MPs in the current Bulgarian parliament. It cannot be used as a proof that there are 4 MPs of Roma origin. I have to reapeat that (judging from the sources I studied) Euroroma is not in the parliament.
Anilomes 08:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no party belonging on the list but you are right - there are no such names there. So let us leave 1 representative unless proven otherwise. Lantonov 16:10, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I've tagged this series of edits as WP:OR. Rough translations of the Bulgarian language refs are provided here. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. RashersTierney ( talk) 22:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
The "Overview" part is fairly racist and based on biased newspapers known for spreading the xenophobic atmosphere against Roma population in Bulgaria.
That overview is shameful. Let's react. I would like to do it myself but my English is poor. Thanks in advance to those who will change that.
Skull33 ( talk) 21:30, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
The article The Roma in Plovdiv is very short and is the only article about Romani people in a particular city rather than a larger geographical area such as a country. As Plovdiv is in Bulgaria, I recommend that The Roma in Plovdiv be merged here. Neelix ( talk) 16:18, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Romani people in Bulgaria. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:52, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Romani people in Bulgaria. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 21:52, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure what, if anything, that is really trying to say. The following clause seems like it's trying to contradict that premise...-- Newbiepedian ( talk · contribs · X! · logs) 00:27, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
how is the fact of negative feelings a discrimination when the further sentences say what kind of people those are ?! having higher crime, unemployment, […] rates, and not many of them attend school. Though most live in poverty, the Romani are represented in Bulgarian mafia and rich Romani crime bosses deal with drug trade and prostitution. […] they have a high rate of child sex workers. -- 77.179.58.160 ( talk) 10:03, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
The National Statistical Institute of Bulgaria, which conducted the 2011 census, declared that "spreading and publishing the results by ethnic group of the 2011 census is a "gross manipulation". Therefore spreading the 2011 census figure in infoboxes disrupts them. I propose it to be removed unless there is a note, stating that this figure is regarded as a gross manipulation by the census conductors. Stevan22 ( talk) 17:29, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Висок относителен дял на неотговорилите на въпросите за „етническа група“ и „майчин език“ и много висок дял на неотговорилите на въпроса за „вероизповедание“. Причините са различни и могат да бъдат дискутирани, но опитите да се прикрие този факт с доброволния характер на тези въпроси не е състоятелен. Тази постановка беше валидна и при преброяването през 2001 г., когато делът на неотговорилите беше различен (много по-малък). Разпространението и публикуването на данни само за отговорилите лица е груба манипулация, която поражда редица спекулации
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Is Toma Tomov a politician or an athlete? Не той е циганин кът всички нас, майка му насрана!
I have added a new section with this title. I have covered education in enough detail, I think, but it would certainly be useful to expand the section with more info on housing and unemployment, perhaps health too.
Moreover, да им еба на циганите, майка им проста.
No-itsme 18:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I still think, these the two passages
"ECRI has correctly observed that members of the Roma community encounter “serious difficulties” “in many spheres of life”. [...] Consequently, this allegation of ECRI is also erroneous."[8]
and
"There had never been a policy of "segregation" of Roma children in the national education system. [...] the word “segregation" with respect to Roma children is inaccurate."[11]
should be removed or paraphrased and definitely be shortened.
They are citations containing other citations from a "Skopje Report" I could not retrieve from the Internet. This causes confusion. If there is a copy of this "Skopje Report" on the net and if the citations relate to the situation of the Roma in Bulgaria it should be cited directly.
Regarding the "official position" it is also important, who defines this position; definitely not the Roma ;-) (see the paragraph I added to the article).
Anilomes 07:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that циганите тряа да са ебат в газа, майка им даеба
As for the cited material, the data are 10 years old. And there are also controversies. On the one hand, it is alleged that ethnic parties are not allowed, while on the other hand, it says that Roma parties failed to win elections for Parliament. BTW, one of the parties in the ruling coalition in Bulgaria at present is ethnic Turk which won elections to a large part due to votes coming from Turkey. Personally, I do not know another country in Europe in which a minority party is in power.
This report of POLITEA is also cited selectively in the new paragraph by failing to mention what it writes for the period after 2001, the participation of parties like EuroRoma in free elections and the reasons why they did not win more representatives (not suppression by government but heterogeity of Roma population, as the report says). The ECRI report was also cited selectively so it gives a red flag that this article (or particular sections of it) is written to serve some agenda (changing the constitution by non-parliamentary means?). This led me to an interesting question: Does the U.S. Constitution allow ethnic parties? Lantonov 08:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Update: I found the Skopje report easily в дебелят ти гъз. See it cited in the respective place in the article. It is not always positive for Bulgaria but as far as it gives space for diverging opinions, it sounds objective. Lantonov 10:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Your recent changes, indeed, are well balanced. Euroroma participated in the 2005 elections in coalition with BSP which won a majority in the National Assembly (the whole coalition). There are at least 2 MPs of Euroroma in Parliament now: Toma Tomov and Tsvetelin Tsvetkov. I am almost sure that there are more but have to find a list of MPs to tell names. Do they have a Roma or Turkish party in Germany? Do you know countries in which they have explicitly Roma parties in Parliament? As for national minorities, Roma and Turks are long ago officially given status of the largest (and increasing proportionally) minorities in Bulgaria. Which Bulgarian law forbids this status? Lantonov 12:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
The Danish minority party in Germany interested me, so I found the following citation:
"The differences begin with the political histories of the two, which have been strongly divergent since the Franco-Prussian wars. In their effect upon the present situation only the political events of the past half-century will be considered here. 1945, the end of WW II, marked a turning point in the history of both communities: for the German Danes it meant a sudden drop from supreme status and power into national disgrace and stigma, for the Danish German cause a rise to power, popularity and unprecedented attractiveness, accompanied by a surge in consciousness, ethnic identity, language use and prestige of Danish south of the border. The very opposite happened to German in the north, with concomitant increases and decreases, respectively, in membership. The 'Kieler Erklärung' of 1949 further supported the Danish movement in North Germany; the demise of the German Danes in North Schleswig was not halted by similar assurances until the restoration of German sovereignty and its momentous economic recovery, which made possible the 1955 declarations 'equalizing' both minorities. For the German minority in Denmark, however, the losses were irrecoverable; for the German Danish minority Germany's rise to prominence meant a certain reduction to its committed core population. Still, the Danish minority party has managed to surpass the 5% clause and still maintains at least one representative at the supra-regional government level; the corresponding German party in Denmark has lost its seat."
Differences between Danish Party and Euroroma:
Turks in Germany do not have citizenship because Germany refuses to grant them citizenship status exactly because it does not want to accept them as a minority. Not having citizenship, they do not have a right to vote, neighter a right to found a party or participate in politics in any other way. There are more Turks permanently living in Germany than there are in Bulgaria. Compare the situation with Bulgaria, in which Turks won half of their seats in Parliament by votes driven with buses from Turkey of people with double Bulgarian-Turkish citizenship. If the Danish minority is 0,00625%, how did they win 5% of all the votes in Germany?
As for Roma MPs, read carefully the POLITEIA report. "Evroroma managed to get a vote share of 1.25 percent, which should secure it some state support and help it develop as a political organization of the Roma minority." For the "vote share of 1.25%", do a simple math. BG Parliament has 240 seats. 240 * 1.25% = 3 seats for Euroroma. There is another Roma Party, Free Bulgaria, also in coalition with BSP which has 1 seat. I told you the names of 2 Roma MPs, for the other 2 I must consult the list. Another Roma Party, DROM, participated in another coalition together with Gergyovden, that also won a Roma seat in Parliament, with MP Manush Romanov, who has been a Roma deputy for many years. So there are 4 or 5 Roma representatives in the 40th Parliament, which is now in power. Roma wouldn't win seats in Parliament if not in coalition because it could not pass 4% barrier (which in Germany is 5%), as the POLITEIA report says. Sorry but the large Roma minority in Bulgaria does not trust Roma politicians and votes for Bulgarian parties in elections. How can Roma politicians remedy the situation? Maybe import Roma votes from abroad as the Turks did. Lantonov 05:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The text in the Bulgarian Constitution is: "It is not allowed to form political parties on ethnic, racist, or religious basis, as well as parties who aim usurping the government by non-parliamentary and violent means." This means that one cannot found a party whose members can only be Roma and Bulgarians are not accepted in it, or the opposite, a Bulgarian party that does not accept Roma members. The principle of the party must be something else. For example, the Turkish party is not called "Turkish party" but "Movement for rights and freedoms". It is not founded on ethnic principles but on liberal centrist ideology. It is even a member of the Liberal International. It is open to all ethnicities and in fact in recent years it accepted as members a number of prominent politicians of Bulgarian ethnicity which it put on high position in central and regional government. However, as we see, Roma in Bulgaria are not united in their political views and support parties with divergent political aims. Lantonov 06:21, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't find a list of MPs with their party membership in the page of the Bulgarian Parliament. Lantonov 07:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
"At the 2005 elections, this trend continued. The BSP alliance run Tomov on their lists, the ODS alliance included another Roma organization, DROM, and Evroroma ran alone, failing to win representation in Parliament. As a result, there is currently only 1 Roma representative in the Bulgarian Parliament."
Please see the above citation from the POLITEA source, which is used here for determining the number of Roma MPs in the current Bulgarian parliament. It cannot be used as a proof that there are 4 MPs of Roma origin. I have to reapeat that (judging from the sources I studied) Euroroma is not in the parliament.
Anilomes 08:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
There is no party belonging on the list but you are right - there are no such names there. So let us leave 1 representative unless proven otherwise. Lantonov 16:10, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I've tagged this series of edits as WP:OR. Rough translations of the Bulgarian language refs are provided here. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. RashersTierney ( talk) 22:31, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
The "Overview" part is fairly racist and based on biased newspapers known for spreading the xenophobic atmosphere against Roma population in Bulgaria.
That overview is shameful. Let's react. I would like to do it myself but my English is poor. Thanks in advance to those who will change that.
Skull33 ( talk) 21:30, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
The article The Roma in Plovdiv is very short and is the only article about Romani people in a particular city rather than a larger geographical area such as a country. As Plovdiv is in Bulgaria, I recommend that The Roma in Plovdiv be merged here. Neelix ( talk) 16:18, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Romani people in Bulgaria. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 13:52, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Romani people in Bulgaria. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 21:52, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure what, if anything, that is really trying to say. The following clause seems like it's trying to contradict that premise...-- Newbiepedian ( talk · contribs · X! · logs) 00:27, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
how is the fact of negative feelings a discrimination when the further sentences say what kind of people those are ?! having higher crime, unemployment, […] rates, and not many of them attend school. Though most live in poverty, the Romani are represented in Bulgarian mafia and rich Romani crime bosses deal with drug trade and prostitution. […] they have a high rate of child sex workers. -- 77.179.58.160 ( talk) 10:03, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
The National Statistical Institute of Bulgaria, which conducted the 2011 census, declared that "spreading and publishing the results by ethnic group of the 2011 census is a "gross manipulation". Therefore spreading the 2011 census figure in infoboxes disrupts them. I propose it to be removed unless there is a note, stating that this figure is regarded as a gross manipulation by the census conductors. Stevan22 ( talk) 17:29, 8 August 2018 (UTC)
Висок относителен дял на неотговорилите на въпросите за „етническа група“ и „майчин език“ и много висок дял на неотговорилите на въпроса за „вероизповедание“. Причините са различни и могат да бъдат дискутирани, но опитите да се прикрие този факт с доброволния характер на тези въпроси не е състоятелен. Тази постановка беше валидна и при преброяването през 2001 г., когато делът на неотговорилите беше различен (много по-малък). Разпространението и публикуването на данни само за отговорилите лица е груба манипулация, която поражда редица спекулации