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"Gypsies is more common than "both Roma and Rroma people" and according to Wikipedia policy, the title should be the most common version.
That's not a complete comparison though. "Roma" would also return lots of hits, although we're then faced with the issue of the Italian name for Rome being the same. But the point stands that comparing "Roma people" to "Gypsies" isn't comparing like with like. Cordless Larry ( talk) 16:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Which wikipedia policy? The imaginary one in your head, or this one? Here are three key points from that policy page (please take special note of the third one):
So, considering the actual wikipedia policy specifically contradicts your argument, please stop. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 18:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
This is not the appropriate place to debate a Wikipedia policy. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 19:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I really think it would be best if we stop fueling this debate any further. There are clear and specific wikipedia guidelines on this issue ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity)) so any further discussion seems to be a waste of time. Rezistenta, if you want to call in arbitration, you are more than welcome to do so. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 21:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Rezistenta is right. As long as the term "Gipsy" is more often use than the term "Roma" (or something like that), we shoult use the denomination "Gipsy" in order to handle according to Wikipedia rules without making exceptions. -- Olahus ( talk) 11:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
No, that's only part of the issue. The other point from the policy is also important:
So even if Gypsy was the most commonly used, because a significant number of people find it offensive, we are to go with the more neutral term, Roma. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 16:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I tink, the article shold be renamed into Gypsies. They are rules in Wikipedia and we must respect them. I suppose in this case the point of the user Rezistenta. -- Feierabend ( talk) 13:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The Gypsies invented this words like Roma and others to create an confusion with Romanians that are latins and came from Daco-Romans and have nothing to do with nomad gypsies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.17.97 ( talk • contribs) 23:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was No Move. Hús ö nd 20:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
As per above. Marc KJH ( talk) 15:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
read the discussion upper in the page, this aspects were already discussed Rezistenta ( talk) 16:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
There are many reasons for moving this article, I will make a short summary for you :
Thanks. My reponse to point 1 would be that we should instead make this article about Roma people and move anything about other groups to the relevant articles. On point 2, I don't think we should be naming articles based on what the term used in the late 1990s was, but rather on what the term used today is. On point 3, isn't this what Template:Otheruses templates are for? Cordless Larry ( talk) 17:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Just to focus on point 2 for a moment, what's the evidence that Gypsy is the more frequently used term? Cordless Larry ( talk) 17:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Not only that this page shouldn't be called Gypsies, but it should be returned to the previous name of "Romani People" because this page is about the Romani People.
Not only that these forever tryings to hide the Romani People term are ridiculous, but they are also against the Wikipedia policy. I'm not even voting here for the reasons above. AKoan ( talk) 09:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Please add my vote as it all seems too confusing and long winded. I am from a Romani family which I feel gives me certain preference on this discussion as it is about my people. I am not ther best in reading and writing but my experience on the matter is probably more important than many. My vote - I am very Strongly against the use of the word Gypsy - Gypsy is considerred an insult amongst my family . I am for the use of Roms - Romane / Romani people. Against Roma people as this term is grammatically incorrect. --many thanks - Tsigan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk) 20:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
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Additionally, we're dealing with a question more nuanced than Move vs. Don't Move. The scope of the article is called into question in this discussion - should the article be about the Roma people exclusively, or about the various peoples who have been called Gypsies?
Perhaps the best solution is a combination of the two: one article on the Roma people, similar to our articles on other ethnic groups, and one article on Gypsies, which describes the history of the term, and explains how it has been applied historically to the Roma people as well as to others. The latter article could also deal with the more recent controversy in which the term is seen as offensive. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Vote (continued, pasted from below)
This is a survey/straw poll count. It is not binding. It tries to approximate a solution like WP:NCI#Ethnic and national identities's WP:IMOS#Derry / Londonderry with special attention to WP:PNSD#Deletion, moving and featuring in an effort to present an estimate of community opinion on WP:RM#2008-03-23, which will soon become backlog. It starts with Talk:Roma people#Survey's first edit on 2008-03-23 and ends with its last edit on 2008-03-27
NB: It's hard to check this and write it at the same time, so I may miss the mark a little but here it comes. Registered Users:
Anonymous Users:
In an AFD vote, usually only the strong, medium, or weak positions of registered voters are counted. In none of those three sections did Agree achieve majority. Including neutral and anonymous positions creates 5 more sections, in none of which did Agree achieve majority. I will report that the participants of this straw poll, in general, opposed the requested move report on WP:RM#2008-03-23 where I think further discussion should continue. :)-- Thecurran ( talk) 03:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The concept Romanies is abused by the Gypsy activists (I mean by that not ethnic Gypsies, but political minded activists who hide a political agenda). During the ancient times, Romania meant the Roman Empire, and because after Diocletian (around year 283) the empire moved its center of power in the Balkans, the Eastern Roman Empire was synonymous with Romania. Therefore, all citizens of these society (starting with Caracalla, the emperor who empowered all free living human beings in the empire to call themselves roman citizens) were Romans. Greeks called themselves, romaioi, jews called themselves romaniotes, etc. The Gypsies came in this part of the world about the year 1000 where called by the Romaioi, Atsinganoi. Later on, some groups, who lived in the proximity of the latins of the Balkans, the vlahs, or the romanians (calling themselve also ruma, rum, aromanian, arman which created the patronim Armani) starting calling themselves ruma/roma.
In 1949 Tito, who tried to control Yugoslavia through a divisive policy, founded the first a "Roma" political activism. From that moment, the "Roma" activism was entrenched in the leftist (communist) camp, being financed and stimulated by leftist ideologies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.86.3 ( talk) 16:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
(Roma people means Roms people - should be Romani people) - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
the appalling social and economic situation of the Roma, who account for between 8 and 10 percent of Hungary's 10 million people that means 800,000-1,000,000. -- Marc KJH ( talk) 17:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Why aren't the archive links working? Rezistenta ( talk) 23:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Now, could someone please fix the archives? A huge (and I think I could say a very important) chunk of the previous discussions is currently missing. They can still be accessed, sure (via earlier diffs of this talk page), but it really would be nice if someone could fix this. Whether that means putting the archives back or putting some of the formerly archived information on the main discussion page, I personally think either way is fine. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 13:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I am from a Romani family and my family find the title "Gypsy" very offensive. The title is short for Egyptian which in todays time we know is definetely not what we are. I thought we lived in a time of political correctness. I can understand gypsy being directed here but to actually have it in the title. Please remove the word from the title as surely this is wrong. Tsigans / Cigans is acceptable as this is a title used by many Romani groups themselves. signed "Chavo" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk • contribs) 23:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually many people that try to call themselves "gypsy" are just plain old travellers and don't even have "Romani" blood. This especially the case in the UK and the United States where normal European travellers are looking for an identity. The Gitanos of Spain call themselves Kale or Gitano / Cigano (from Tsigane). Gipsy Kings only used the word "Gypsy" to recognised of their background to the universal market. The name is probably more to do with marketing their music as opposed to a name they use amongst their own people. Signed 'Chavo' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
This article appears to have been moved from Roma people to Gypsies (Roma people) without consensus for the move, by User:Marc KJH. I have restored it to the original version. Jeepday ( talk) 13:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
being a gypsy myself I must say untill few years ago I never heard about the term Roma or Romani for our group, the new term is certainly not pushed by us but more probable by others, we use the term cigane or tsigane to desigante ourselves not roma or romani .. I wanted to clarify this because I see many untrue things probably commented by non-gypsies 82.103.71.98 ( talk) 03:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
The word Rom means 'husband / respected married male' and his wife is a Romni in most Romani groups. Some Roms may call themselves Tsigane as a racial group but never "Gypsy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 22:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
English Romanichals refer to the "Roma" coming into England from Eastern Europe as "Roms". Roma translates into the English language as "Roms". Roma is the Romani way of spelling Rom as a plural. This article is in the English language and not Romani - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
Indeed, I think this whole dispute is silly. On one side one has "minority rights" guys that would not accept "gypsy", and on the other you have guys that won't accept "roma", even if it's used by a sizeable part of media nowadays.
And nobody proposes the actual middle way, which is to present both names (and others, such as Tsigan) on an equal basis, just like it's done in dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster. Dpotop ( talk) 16:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what the current name is, but beware that any of Roma, Gypsy is OK (there are reliable sources for both). For Tsigan is not so clear, because it's about English language usage. So, I still think this dispute is stupid, and the only issue here is explaining that both names are OK, and why. And then, you make a link and that's it. Dpotop ( talk) 19:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone agree that the external links section needs cutting down? I propose deleting any dead links, getting rid of those to NGOs that are locally based in cities (such as Leeds) and just leaving the major national or international ones, and getting rid of some of the resource-type links. Cordless Larry ( talk) 11:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
It is not Roma homeland. Roma in English translates as "Roms" as 'a' makes the word a plural. Therefore by saying Roma homeland we are saying Roms homeland. It is Romani Homeland. If you say Rom's Homeland then Rom's is a reference to a single Rom - correct? - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
Section seems like a complete WP:CRUFT anyway and probably an attempt by some European freak to get rid of Roma people as being discussed here: [5] based on a supposed nostalgic desire that may or may not have been expressed by Roma people. Desione ( talk) 00:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Go for it then. Create a "Roma interaction with modern India" section. Would be good. Lihaas ( talk) 14:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
There's great injustice for The Romanian Nation to use the name Roma, Romani for Gypsies. It's a big confusion. The strangers can say that Romania is the land of the Gypsies. See Romani for Gypsies. This is an aberation. Or Roma. What's that? That's sh...t. Nobody asked Romanians if they agree with that and that's a shame to hide the Gypsies behind the Romanians. Romanian - different - Gypsy or Roma. Unless use the term Rroma for no confusion. I don't care that in English they ended to call Roma. The rules are made by man. Romania is the land of Romanian Nation. The minority of Gypsy Etnie should not use the name of country. How about Francs for Gypsy from France instead French people? Nice isn't that? Or Brits instead British people? Corect? Or Hongory insteand Hungarians? True? Should I continue? Ok. Germa for Germans, Itals for Italians, Spans for Spanish, etc. So Ady from Japan , Tara unde poate iti vei lumina mintea, you in quality of Romanian not as Gypsy or "Rroma" and not Roma, you must watch for interest of your country. It's about identity of Romanians (Rumanians) Nation and not about discrimination. It's about the right to exist with the name in respect. The Gypsies can build their respect with an solid education and decently instead steeling Romanians identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.76.113 ( talk) 21:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
My friend... The Rom or Roma name has nothing to do with Romania - "There is no etymological connection between the name Roma (ethnicity) and the city of Rome, ancient Rome, Romania, the Romanian people or the Romanian language." It is a mere coincidence! Read the etymological section of the article before saying such... ignorant platitudes! The Ogre ( talk) 00:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
What strange coincidence! In my ignorance, there's almost no difference between Romanians and Romanies. You must listen first very carefully the name and after that you can make the difference. It's very nice to observe in my ignorance that for the first time it was Roma, after that it was Romanes, after Romani and now Romanies. In what language are you writing in this page? I suppose that it is English. Ok, then, why do you decline that words in the Gypsies language in English. How nice, you ignorant. You can do better then speaking lies and acuzing me for ignorance. Let's be clear : what's the image of Romania in Europe? A land that provides Gypsy children to the streets of Europe. So why me, why should I be Gypsy? Only because I'm Romanian, not Gypsy (see confusion Romani, Romanies, Romanes). You can say all the great things, that make a noble man. Romanians are Romanians and the Gypsies are Gypsies. Every people can chose his way of beeing. Romanians have already one (Romania is a country of Romanian Nation; remember the name), so The gypsies can now chose their way respecting the others. See Romanians. Do that and that's ok. Please don't tell me bulsh..ts like English already chosed the name for the Gypsies. You can see the name's variety for theese. Now it's a proces to define theese peoples (the gypsies). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv ( talk • contribs) 05:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC) — Nomád Terv ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
(moved from attempted re-start of identical duscussion in a new section):
There's great injustice for The Romanian Nation to use the name Roma, Romani for Gypsies. It's a big confusion. The strangers can say that Romania is the land of the Gypsies. See Romani for Gypsies. This is an aberation. Or Roma. What's that? That's sh...t. Nobody asked Romanians if they agree with that and that's a shame to hide the Gypsies behind the Romanians. Romanian - different - Gypsy or Roma. Unless use the term Rroma for no confusion. I don't care that in English they ended to call Roma. The rules are made by man. Romania is the land of Romanian Nation. The minority of Gypsy Etnie should not use the name of country. How about Francs for Gypsy from France instead French people? Nice isn't that? Or Brits instead British people? Corect? Or Hongory insteand Hungarians? True? Should I continue? Ok. Germa for Germans, Itals for Italians, Spans for Spanish, etc. So, it's about identity of Romanians (Rumanians) Nation and not about discrimination. It's about the right to exist with the name in respect. The Gypsies can build their respect with an solid education and decently instead steeling Romanians identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In the English language Romani for the Romani Gypsy people is recognised. Romani for Romanians is not recognised within the English language - simple. Rumania and Rumanians is recognised within the English language. If you have a hang up then use the latter form of the word - thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk) 20:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
'for Hardless Larry : Dear I'trying to make You understand that I have the right to say that. Others like you
don't understand that. So, for every day that this article exists I consider that it's my duty to write those words. If you don't like it shut up and don't interfere in this.' —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
78.96.153.180 (
talk)
17:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
NT - are you trying to make a point? Why then would you do this [6]? it is contrary to your stated goal of disambiguating the two groups. Please make your points in a more civil and constructive way. István ( talk) 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Romania should go back to writing Rumania which is an alternate English way of spelling it and is also used by Romanians themselves. The only other possible way of spelling Romani is Ramani as the word may derive from the Indic word Raman, but this is not proven. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
Is there any proof of the claim that Norway forced them to be sterilized till 1977? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.185.104 ( talk) 20:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Are the Banjara Romani? The reference for the population in India specifically says Banjara -- Maurice45 ( talk) 14:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Where did this end up? I've reviewed some of the online resources that are referenced here (footnotes 67, 68, 69) and they do NOT provide any evidence that the Banjara are in anyway related to the Roma.
"The Gypsies" book by Angus Fraser on pages 26-30 provides some background to the debate. This section linking the Banjara and Roma should be removed or edited to indicate that the Banjara-Roma link is an unattested claim. --
Vickramj (
talk)
13:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course the Banjara are not Romani. They do not even know the word unless through Europeans teaching them of the Romani people in Europe. The Romani may have Banjara blood in them but the Banjara do not come from the Romani people - signed Tsigan. - —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
77.96.254.123 (
talk •
contribs) 29 July 2008
Ok, so we start from the fact that the Roma people originated from Multan. Right, so Multan is in Pakistan, the southern Punjab region of Pakistan. Yet the author of this article fails to mention this anywhere. Why does the article state that Multan is in Rajahstan? I would advise the person to pick up a South Asia map frankly.
And why so many references to "Indian Subcontinent" when you know that Roma people originated from Multan? Do you realise how big the "Indian Subcontinent" actually is? A good 1.6 billion people live there, spread across half a dozen countries.
This article is so geographically challenged that its not even funny. I know a few Indians on wikipedia use the British Raj version of the Indian map so they can call all things Pakistan, Indian, but for the sake of knowledge please correct this. Thank you.
--
Xinjao (
talk)
17:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
In fact, speaking of that "Origins" section - it seems (to me, at least) that a lot of the information there is either misleading or (as in the case of the "Jatts-Rajputs-Khatris") total nonsense Maybe these problems can be taken care of later, probably when this page is in a more stable state. For now, though, let me repeat my question and put it in bold print, just in case people failed to notice:
Anyone opposed to removing the paragraphs inserted here? They were included by a banned sockpuppet of a banned user. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 21:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
this is not nonsiense any more than other present theories. Lets be sensible. It is proven that the Roms speak a different root language to the Domari / Ghorbati tribes of Asia so therefore left India completely independent to the Domari / Ghorbati who were probably taken to Persian as musician. The Roms leaving India due to war is a very sensible suggestion. more so than suggestions that Rom comes from Dom even thought the Indian root language is different and the word Rom means 'husband' like the Indian word Raman. It seems too coincidentental that Romano / Romani has its root from Roman which is again very close to Raman. The evidence is more sensible than saying Rom = Dom. Using trades as a means to tie the two together is also of no use as they are just doing trades available at the time whether metal work, wood work, entertainment as is seen with all nomadic people. Is an Italian resturant owner in America related to a Turkish resturant owner because they have adapted to the America market with the same trades? - please get real. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
In the "origins" section it said the Nazis claimed the Roma "weren't 'Aryan' (whatever that term means)". I cut out the parenthetical bit, dropped the quotes around the term Aryan and linked the word to the Wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.225.162.219 ( talk) 17:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The changes are not "unexplained" - the edit summary includes the explanation:
"[...]not backed up by sources" -- Kuaichik ( talk) 06:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Data on the number of Roma in Hungary is being changed, so I think it should be discussed what are the "real" numbers and what references can be considered as reliable. Timur lenk ( talk) 10:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
In Hungary, ethnicity is a question of choice. While it is a politically very liberal solution, it can be sometimes problematic. Ways of deciding ethnicity can be asking mother tongue, cultural affinity or ethnic identity, or to ask others (neighbors) about the given persons ethnicity or can be the enumerator's decision. The latter two "methods" use mainly external characters so it can be very offensive to consider someone to be a member of an ethnicity that she or he seems to be part of.
I don't think it is a problem to indicate more data - the point is the reliable primary reference. The basic problem with estimates is that they are based on some kind of "objective" parameters (skin color, way of life and habits etc.) or in other words, prejudice - however, ethnicity is a very subjective characteristic of a person, not something that can be "diagnosed" by others. Timur lenk ( talk) 15:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry but what kind of argumentation and tone is that? Please study netiquette on use of ALL CAPS. Yelling does not replace arguments. The name “Roma” is of Romany origin, the Roma (or, in your words, Gypsies) refer to themselves as “rom” in the Romany language - it is clearly described in the article. The sources stating a population of 1,000,000 Roma in Hungary give little or no info on "the procedure of estimating the real number of this populace". Again, please stick to verifiable data. Thank you. Timur lenk ( talk) 01:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I apologize for my last comment here. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 23:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
(Cut and pasted here from below as I didn't know about this discussion): I'm removing romaweb.hu, a governmental site exclusively dealing with Roma people. László Hablicsek himself says his study is not neutral, because the author is involved (see page 4, bolded in Hungarian).
The European Roma Rights Centre (ERRC) is an international public interest law organisation engaging in a range of activities aimed at combating anti-Romani racism and human rights abuse of Roma.
Doesn't qualify as a neutral source for disputed data.
Demos is acceptable (a foundation not exclusively dealing with Roma people), they estimate Romas' number between 450000 and 600000 (page 45).
IHT (European edition of NYT) is a reliable source estimating the number of Roma in Hungary between 500000 and 1 million. But there is
also a NYT article talking about Roma "who make up between 6 and 8 percent of Hungary's population of some 10 million". Which means between 600000 and 800000. I'm adding the NYT article.
The Romnews source is not a neutral source, their reliability is also questionable.
The United Nations estimates the number of Roma in Hungary
around 600000. Reliable, neutral source, I'm adding it.
Squash Racket (
talk)
09:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
It's a bit strange that NYT and its European edition, IHT estimated the number of Roma in Hungary quite differently. NYT says 600000 to 800000, IHT says 500000 to 1 million(!). Can these sources be considered reliable regarding these numbers? What was their source for these estimations? Squash Racket ( talk) 11:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Re: this - They're "generally arrested...at a much higher rate"? What does that even mean? That sometimes the police say, "Eh, I'm tired of imprisoning 'gypsies'. Let's go after (insert name of some other minority) instead!"?
No offense intended, by the way. Bulgaria is just one of the countries listed in that report. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 20:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Under this term I found "Some authorities[citation needed] recognize five main groups:" a citation is needed. I probably found a relevant article, but I am new here, so would rather discuss it before making changes. So this article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=31389 has the descriptions of these groups, but it itself has this article as a citation. (Fraser, A. The Gypsies. Oxford: Blackwell Publishers, 1992.)
And I am not sure , which one, we should site, because the later, is not available online. Studentmed ( talk) 15:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The word Roma means 'Roms'. It is not "Roms communities", it is "Romani communities". - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
There are lot of articles in established journals about the health of people living in Roma settlements. I think we should either start a new article about their health or , we should add some information about their health to this existing article. Comments/ suggestions?? Studentmed ( talk) 19:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The article mentions "indigenous religion". What is the Roma indigenous religion? yokyle ( talk) 04:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
The word Roma means 'Roms'. It is not "Roms Religion", it is "Romani Religion". - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
So, for some time, especially since Romania was accepted in EU, we have a serious problem in Romani-related articles, concerning the Romanian users and their seemingly never-ending identity crisis. They don't listen to anyone, they don't want to present any serious argumentation, they only resort incessantly to the tactic known in Romanian as ţigăneală. What should we do with them? As if it wouldn't be enough the amount of work pending in Romani-related articles, now we have to waste our time with their desire to make history by all means right here on Wikipedia.
For those who don't know the background of the problem, let's detail its main points. For both Romanies and Romanians, the integration in the modern world meant coping with the imagery of parallel exonyms used by the others, Gypsy, respectively V(a)lah. In both cases, it was promoted the endonym, in order to go beyond stereotypes and bring their identity in the modern world. For the Romanies the naming issues stopped here. However, the Romanians embarked on a series of name-related identity experiments whose results we may see in endless blah on this talk page and vandalisms in the Romani articles. The name Romanian (Român in contemporary Romanian language) itself is a modern creation. Their endonym was Rumîn until a century and a half ago, but they changed it to Român in order to look more similar to Rome, the city of their ancestors. The background was their fear that they are not European enough, an obsession unchanged until nowadays. For someone living in Romania it can't pass a day without hearing integrarea în Europa (integration in Europe), adaptarea la valorile europene (adaptation to the European values), or without being reminded about the popular distinction between Romania and Europe [23] [24]..
Not solving yet these uncertainties, now they found another possibility to pursue their habit of ethnic name changes, hence we see this continuous Romanian violence on Romani-related articles. The issue in a nutshell: the Romanians found that the Romanies have a name too close to their new one, unleashing their identity paranoia. The delusion's result: hey, you have a name too similar to my own, what would the others think about me, change yours immediately!
Here I should remind that there are countless names worldwide differing only by few letters, but, unless there is an identity crisis there, nobody gives a damn on their closeness. Everybody knows what they mean, they have enough neurons in their head to make a distinction between how sound Slovakia and Slovenia, Prussian and Russian (as other users said previously). However, we have the Romanian guys here on Wikipedia and also in real life, with a revolutionary vision on such matters. This is something like a linguistic rebellion started by the English word unknown, demanding to be written from now on as un-know-n, with short stops in pronunciation for the two dashes, so that every speaker should never forget its shocking origin and, on the other hand, to replace the word noun with vdhjgrynmhdsfyr, so that to alleviate unknown's fear that noun would violate its linguistic identity. I think it is not necessary the opinion of a linguist or, better, of a psychiatrist to see the mechanisms of such approach.
In this manner, we can see how the Romani-related articles became mostly a Romanian affair. We have represented here the usual types of persons that appear also in real life around this issue. We have Bogdangiusca, the Romanian intellectual Mitică-stlye, the "little Parisian" bearing centuries-old inferiority complexes, always comparing Romania with Western Europe and using, inside the Romanian environment, the "blaming the Gypsy" technique to explain the differences, while outside this environment, the "hiding the Gypsy" technique to appease his fears of lacking Europeanness. I wrote earlier about his work on hiding the cultural presence of the Romanies in Romania. The situation is now mostly the same as one year ago. Without discussion, only with a fallacious reason, he moved this article from "Romani people" to "Roma people". For the same purpose, he proposed for deletion the articles Names of the Romani people, Roma (Romani subgroup). Also I see he started the article Slavery in Romania, using fringe-theories known only in Romania. According to them, the Romanians are absolved of any guilt concerning this historical issue, because the Romanies came as slaves (!) in contemporary Romania. The neighboring populations allegedly enslaved them first and for some inscrutable reasons they gave them to the Romanians. Plus, he is too conceited to talk to Romanies, he does not communicate, only sometimes gives short notices.
He is an administrator, this status making him the local hero [25] [26] of the outward Romanian extremists. And he does not mind letting them do the dirty work. Rezistenta, former Adrianzax, the extremist who eulogize Bogdan, is an user who should have been banned long time ago. He comes with conspiracy theories with paranoid scenarios about how the Romanies will take over Romania. However, unsurprisingly, the things he blame on the Romanies can be applied to him, the notion of psychological projection describing well his behavior. He gave countless threats to users who do not fit his agenda, he disrupted the editing process with reverts giving fallacious explanations, Bogdangiusca-style (no need for examples, most of his edits are of this kind), he deleted the talk of other users [27] [28], also he keeps deleting the talk on his own user page [29] [30]. He has no respect for logic and morality, coming with invented words like Domani (in his attempt to change the name of the Romanies), he supports the pejorative term gypsy, but he does not mind elsewhere to say that it is different from Romani [31] in order to hide things.
An old acquaintance of this talk page, Dpotop, is representative for the Romanians going abroad, thus out of soap-bubble of the Romanian society, experiencing the tough reality of the difference between the imagery ingrained at home about the Romanians as one of the greatest people ever and the fact that the outsiders tend to name the capital of Romania as either Budapest or Sofia. "Blaming the Gypsy" technique is an easy solution for such people, making him too ending attracted to this article like a butterfly to a lamp.
Somewhere in the background, is Dahn, the Romanian intellectual with a self-assured worldview, not needing to rely on the Romanies in order to create the Romanian identity or to resort to scapegoatism. Unfortunately he is not yet representative for the Romanian society, inevitably, being the subject of violence from the "resistant" Romanian users.
We had also an episode of the Gypsimpics, the on-going Olympics of Gypsiness from Central Europe. However, here too the Romanians are the bad guys, they are on offensive against the others.
My view is that this Gypsy fixation of the Romanians has gone too far, already it has done many damages in the prospects of inter-ethnic communication, while a good Romanian saying reminds that it is necessary să laşi loc de bună ziua ("to let room for a hello"). What should I say to them? Why your obsession with imaginea României în străinătate ("the image of Romania abroad"), theoretically a very good thing, should be transposed in reality only through the paranoid fears about lacking Europeaness? Nothing good will come from this. It only shows your identity problems. Look at the Spaniards, theoretically in the same position as you, with originally non-European influences, be they Arabic, Romani, Jewish. However, they were self-assured about who they were, they considered these influences as European, who says now they are not Europeans? Moreover, they benefit from the presence of the Romanies there (saying Flamenco is enough). BTW, you too consider Flamenco as European. But in Romania... the authorities bribe the team from Travel Channel to film only the Romanians, but not the Romanies, some days ago the organizers of the Traditional Handicrafts' Fair from Bucharest tried to forbid the presence of the Romani craftsmen, allegedly because they were not registered correctly. It was necessary to fight legally and to prove that the registering happened correctly.
And here what kind of image are you making? Who represents you? This? If you would have been really concerned about your image, you should have been the first to kick out this "Romanian", in order to keep a civilized behavior on Romanian-concerning issues. He is one of the Gypsiest persons I ever saw. Here I want to say that personally I do not accept to be named Gypsy, Gypsy is someone fitting the Gypsy stereotypes. And considering the Romanian activity on Romani-related articles, I invite everyone decide who are the the winners of the Gypsimpcs. I guess that if there would be somewhere willingness on your side to make an U turn and reconsider your Gypsy fixation, you will have some work to do, because I see that the others found your weak point. A weak point that only invites problems. And obviously letting your "resistants" do the dirty work, only adds problems and barbarism.
Look at the Italians, theoretically in the same position as you: if someone googles Romani, rather than Romanians and Romanies it is rather likely to encounter something related to Rome, due to its higher visibility and economic importance. Did they say that the Romanies are attempting to hijack their identity and the name of their Roman ancestors? No, obviously, they are not such idiot. Now, don't tell me that "who are we compared to the Italians and so on...". If you do not have self-confidence, then build it, don't jump on the others. Face your issues, what would your neighbors think about you when they will find out that you put on their shoulders the burden of slavery from Romania? If you feel less visible than the Romanies, don't try to obliterate us. Nothing good will come out of this on any of the sides. Work on your Romanian-related articles to become visible, instead coming here and displaying your cowardness. Do you really expect us to give up? Citing from the personal page one of the faithful Romanian contributors to this talk page:
I see that Romani persons started to use the term V(a)lah instead Romanian, as a counterpart to this violence.
As a conclusion, the fact is that currently something is rotten in Romania, namely this Gypsy addiction. The notion of Gypsy is like a drug, "blaming the Gypsy" torpids the pains, gives egoistic satisfactions, makes possible all kind of surrealistic visions of the world. But of course, there is the reverse, a society continuously " high on Gypsy" is incapable to face the reality, the best thing they can do being to hide their addiction. Last year I wrote on this talk page how the Romanian prime minister blamed Romanies for the image problems of the Romanian citizens in Italy. However, at that moment, the cases cited in the Italian media were only about ethnic Romanians [32] [33]. Hence, they waited until November, when finally there appeared a Romani case ("Mailat case"), to start the usual scapegoatism, immediately reverberating also on Wikipedia, giving new fuel to the post EU admission violence.
Hopefully, there will appear some ways for the Romanians to face the reality, otherwise they will be only on the losing side (here concerning me too, because I have Romanian citizenship). Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 16:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Re: Rezistenta's last comment: True, not everybody agrees with Prof. Hancock. For that matter, though, not everybody agrees with anybody, right? Besides, this does not seem to be one of those areas where any scholars refute Prof. Hancock per se - even Prof. Matras uses the word "Romani" instead of "Roma," as you can see here. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 19:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
It's possible that Roma IS more common than Romani people, but
Alternately, we could use "Romani people" which
Ordinarily, I'm all for "most common wins" but there's a legitimate reason why that would cause confusion in this case. This seems like an easy NPOV solution to me, siding neither with Roma or Romanies. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 22:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
The last time I expressed a view on this talk page was on April Fool's Day, so I don't understand why my name appears in this extremist rant by User:Desiphral. I also refrained from editing the article itself, exactly because I know to what extremes some pro-Romani NGOs and their representatives are ready to push their discourse. I won't get into technicalities here. I will simply remind this unhappy Romanian citizen of Roma ethnicity that he lives in a country that allowed Roma to live and multiply to a larger degree than any surrounding or Western country. This is true even today: If he does not believe me, I suggest he follows the news of Western countries, especially in what regards expulsions of Romanian citizens and the fact that nobody wants around what the French call fr:Gens du voyage. Now, problems exist, and I never said Romania is the greatest country, etc, which is what this guy seems to imply. So, problems have existed and exist, in particular in what concerns the integration of Roma. However, I think these guys should cut the crap concerning "historical guilt", and "it's your fault we do not integrate". I understand Desiphral would want the entire Romanian GDP, and maybe all EU aid be dedicated to Roma, but this is not feasible. Moreover, this discourse is simply drawing away attention from *the main problem* of pro-Roma efforts, which is the following: What was proved to work on Roma integration is not throwing money to the problem, because such money ends up in the accounts of a few NGOs and mafia leaders. Instead, what works is a slow process of: (1) education, (2) sedentarization, which is a constant in Western culture, not just in Romania, and (3) anti-discrimination education of the majority population. All of these are already on the way. Like in the US for the African-Americans, I would say, except they were already sedentarized. Dpotop ( talk) 19:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
That infobox is enormously long, and it's mostly just populations by country. Any way we could make that section collapsible? - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 15:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
With respect to the tile 'Roma people' then I agree this is wrong.
The word Roma is using Romani grammar as it is the plural of Rom using the Romani 'a' for grammar. To quote
The word Rroma / Roma is not an English word, but is with Romani grammar and is the plural of the word Rom. In the English language it is ‘Roms’. English mixed blooded Romanichal travellers of the UK who come into contact with the fuller blooded Rroma of the continent have always referred to them as ‘Roms’. It is Gaje (non-Romani) scholars that are now calling them Roma.
The tile should either be Roms or Romane / Romani people.
Using the terminating letter 'e' in the english is not wrong as english has words like 'Cafe' which sound the same. As for being called 'Gypsy'. No Rom calls themself a gypsy unless to gaje.
But Baxtalo
It mentions Romani / Romane tribes called Luri.
Is this correct as I was of the understanding the Luri were in Asia and were an un-related Domari tribe speaking a different Indic language to the Roms?
The Etymology and also the section on asia and the middle east is very incorrect and unbacked up by any proven facts and needs to be corrected. There is no proven ties between the Ghorbati (Domii) of asia and the Rroma from of Europe. The section refers to Asian nomadic groups as 'Gypsy' even though they have no past connection or mistaken connection to Egypt.
In Ghorbati / Domari they speak a language from a different origin to the Romani language.
Romani for example uses Rajasthani grammar of o on masculine words (i.e. Miro / Muro = my (masculine). Domari uses the typical Hindi grammar of Mera. Romani uses the Rajasthani / Rajputti word Kako for 'uncle' whereas Ghorbati uses the different rooted Indian word Mamun.
Romani words for brother, sister, house, horse & over there are; Phral, Phen, Kher (pronounced like the English word 'care'), Khuro (meaning ‘Colt’) and Othe which are all like modern Panjabi Phra, Phen, Khar, Khora, Othe.
Domii / Domari uses the following; Bar, Beynam, Gar, Gori & Hundar. Compare this to modern Hindi; Bhai, Bahin, Ghar, Gura & Udhar. We can now see that the Romani language uses Rajasthani / Rajputti grammar and borrows from Panjabi whereas Domii / Domari doesn't. Domii / Domari also has three gender where as Romani like modern Rajasthani / Panjabi etc only has two. This shows the two peoples had different home territories whilst still in India as we can see they spoke different languages / dialects. If there is any connection between the two then it goes back further into India as the two spoke different Indian languages and if thiere is a connection then it is still not as yet a proven or accepted fact, hence the article on here being incorrect.
In addition to this the article in the first paragraph says how the word Dom means man and then in the next paragraph points out how the Romani word Rom means 'married man'. Interestingly not all Romani tribes call themselves Roma but just use the word Rom meaning 'husband'. Most do use the word Romani (f), Romano (m) & Romane (p) which are all gender variations of the word Roman. Something else this article fails to point out is the Sanskrit word Raman also meaning 'husband / married man'.
The same way the word Lolo (m) Loli (f) meaning 'red' derives from lala / lali, Romano (m) Romani (f) could derive from Ramana / Ramani. The female equiverlent of Rom is Romni. Both could be short spoken corruptions of Raman and Ramani.
To include Romani with the word Gypsy is very politically incorrect as many if not most Roms find this word offensive. The word Gypsy means 'Egyptian' and the Romani people are not from Egypt.
There should be a seperate page explaining the word Gypsy and how it is short for the word Egytian and how the word was mistakenly applied to Roms. It can also cover how many people mistakenly used the word today as an alternative to traveller or nomadic group.
If people then choose to look further into the Roms / Romani people they can link from that page. This way it is not the least bit offensive or degrading to the Romani people. It also covers any arguement with the basic FACTS (which is what this site is supposed to be about). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk) 22:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
The infobox lists India with 5,794,000 Romani, more than any other country, but the section of the article on population states the following: "The largest population of Romanies is found in the Balkan peninsula; significant numbers also live in the Americas, the former Soviet Union, Western Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa." India's not even mentioned here. Can someone explain this? – SJL 15:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Italy has started fingerprinting Roma living within its territory. I don't have time at the moment to incorporate this information into the article myself, but maybe someone else will. – SJL 15:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I was about to undo this good faith edit, but I thought about it again.
See, that edit is fine, but the wording sounds a bit odd. It says "This widely dispersed ethnic group lives across the world, not only in Eurasia, but also in the Americas and the Middle East." But...the Middle East is in Eurasia! :-P
And yet there is another problem. What should it be changed to? The original said that the Romanies live "not only in Europe, but also in the Americas and the Middle East." But there are Romanies in Iran (and possibly other borderline "Middle Eastern" countries), and it seems that there are also Romanies in China and even Singapore (though I still maintain that there are no Romanies known to live in India). So, should it be changed back to "Europe," or to something like "...Europe...the Americas and Asia"? -- Kuaichik ( talk) 23:20, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure what a founder population is. It would help to link to an article that covers that information. 70.16.2.17 ( talk) 10:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Just saw Rezistenta revert of my edit. Well, my edit was a change of a non-member edit. I was going to revert this edit, but i bothered to look at the sources (of which there are multiple) and saw the max number was 19.4m. These are not my numbers. These are numbers of already sourced edits. The max was 19.4m that's why the site says a MAX. number for "Other estimations." Not even the prime estimation that is still disputed, but the OTHER estimations. in future can people please DISCUSS before all but minor edits on such a big article. Lihaas ( talk) 00:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I responded to Rezistenta on his user page in an entirely civil manner saying after he explained the info made more sense. but before edits people need to discuss (this often happens that people jump to edits, without discussion, i myself have been guilty of this. but this is also happened before that civility and reason brought about a better conclusion). The previous number said 22.4m so I looked at all the sources, and, at the time, the 19.4m, which did seem high, was pegged next to Romani. The fact the English wikipedia used foreign language sources can cause confusion, even though it is legitimate. And also assuming good faith is equal to assuming changed are not made as vandalism. It does not mean "how was I support to know..." I don't know if Rezistenta has read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility but it'll help to prevent further flare ups. I could have been in my right mind to report this but I see Themightyquill has done so. (Thank you for your support in preserving civility, even though our edits didn't agree we can still be civil and discuss) There are other occasions (for example: see the original page for Zana Krasniqi) with blatant POV violations, but, on that occassion at least, I re did the article, and the others made edits back to keep it as a better POV. Lihaas ( talk) 16:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
In this edit, AKoan reverted the edits of an IP user. However, in doing so, he changed the original estimate for the number of Romani people in the world from the original "15 million or more" to "15 million." Before his edit (and that of another IP), the article originally said "15 million or more."
Shouldn't it be kept the way it was before, i.e. "15 million or more"? Clearly, there are controversies regarding the number of Romanies in various countries, and not all Romanies have been accounted for on Wikipedia (not even in the more exhaustive list Romani people by country!). For example, there are (apparently) Romanies in China and Singapore, but you can't see China or Singapore in that list. (In fact, it's quite possible that there are no estimates available for the number of Romanies in China or Singapore.) -- Kuaichik ( talk) 23:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
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"Gypsies is more common than "both Roma and Rroma people" and according to Wikipedia policy, the title should be the most common version.
That's not a complete comparison though. "Roma" would also return lots of hits, although we're then faced with the issue of the Italian name for Rome being the same. But the point stands that comparing "Roma people" to "Gypsies" isn't comparing like with like. Cordless Larry ( talk) 16:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Which wikipedia policy? The imaginary one in your head, or this one? Here are three key points from that policy page (please take special note of the third one):
So, considering the actual wikipedia policy specifically contradicts your argument, please stop. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 18:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
This is not the appropriate place to debate a Wikipedia policy. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 19:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
I really think it would be best if we stop fueling this debate any further. There are clear and specific wikipedia guidelines on this issue ( Wikipedia:Naming conventions (identity)) so any further discussion seems to be a waste of time. Rezistenta, if you want to call in arbitration, you are more than welcome to do so. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 21:30, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Rezistenta is right. As long as the term "Gipsy" is more often use than the term "Roma" (or something like that), we shoult use the denomination "Gipsy" in order to handle according to Wikipedia rules without making exceptions. -- Olahus ( talk) 11:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
No, that's only part of the issue. The other point from the policy is also important:
So even if Gypsy was the most commonly used, because a significant number of people find it offensive, we are to go with the more neutral term, Roma. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 16:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
I tink, the article shold be renamed into Gypsies. They are rules in Wikipedia and we must respect them. I suppose in this case the point of the user Rezistenta. -- Feierabend ( talk) 13:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
The Gypsies invented this words like Roma and others to create an confusion with Romanians that are latins and came from Daco-Romans and have nothing to do with nomad gypsies —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.140.17.97 ( talk • contribs) 23:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The result of the proposal was No Move. Hús ö nd 20:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
As per above. Marc KJH ( talk) 15:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
read the discussion upper in the page, this aspects were already discussed Rezistenta ( talk) 16:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
There are many reasons for moving this article, I will make a short summary for you :
Thanks. My reponse to point 1 would be that we should instead make this article about Roma people and move anything about other groups to the relevant articles. On point 2, I don't think we should be naming articles based on what the term used in the late 1990s was, but rather on what the term used today is. On point 3, isn't this what Template:Otheruses templates are for? Cordless Larry ( talk) 17:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Just to focus on point 2 for a moment, what's the evidence that Gypsy is the more frequently used term? Cordless Larry ( talk) 17:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Not only that this page shouldn't be called Gypsies, but it should be returned to the previous name of "Romani People" because this page is about the Romani People.
Not only that these forever tryings to hide the Romani People term are ridiculous, but they are also against the Wikipedia policy. I'm not even voting here for the reasons above. AKoan ( talk) 09:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Please add my vote as it all seems too confusing and long winded. I am from a Romani family which I feel gives me certain preference on this discussion as it is about my people. I am not ther best in reading and writing but my experience on the matter is probably more important than many. My vote - I am very Strongly against the use of the word Gypsy - Gypsy is considerred an insult amongst my family . I am for the use of Roms - Romane / Romani people. Against Roma people as this term is grammatically incorrect. --many thanks - Tsigan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk) 20:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
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Additionally, we're dealing with a question more nuanced than Move vs. Don't Move. The scope of the article is called into question in this discussion - should the article be about the Roma people exclusively, or about the various peoples who have been called Gypsies?
Perhaps the best solution is a combination of the two: one article on the Roma people, similar to our articles on other ethnic groups, and one article on Gypsies, which describes the history of the term, and explains how it has been applied historically to the Roma people as well as to others. The latter article could also deal with the more recent controversy in which the term is seen as offensive. - GTBacchus( talk) 21:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Vote (continued, pasted from below)
This is a survey/straw poll count. It is not binding. It tries to approximate a solution like WP:NCI#Ethnic and national identities's WP:IMOS#Derry / Londonderry with special attention to WP:PNSD#Deletion, moving and featuring in an effort to present an estimate of community opinion on WP:RM#2008-03-23, which will soon become backlog. It starts with Talk:Roma people#Survey's first edit on 2008-03-23 and ends with its last edit on 2008-03-27
NB: It's hard to check this and write it at the same time, so I may miss the mark a little but here it comes. Registered Users:
Anonymous Users:
In an AFD vote, usually only the strong, medium, or weak positions of registered voters are counted. In none of those three sections did Agree achieve majority. Including neutral and anonymous positions creates 5 more sections, in none of which did Agree achieve majority. I will report that the participants of this straw poll, in general, opposed the requested move report on WP:RM#2008-03-23 where I think further discussion should continue. :)-- Thecurran ( talk) 03:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
The concept Romanies is abused by the Gypsy activists (I mean by that not ethnic Gypsies, but political minded activists who hide a political agenda). During the ancient times, Romania meant the Roman Empire, and because after Diocletian (around year 283) the empire moved its center of power in the Balkans, the Eastern Roman Empire was synonymous with Romania. Therefore, all citizens of these society (starting with Caracalla, the emperor who empowered all free living human beings in the empire to call themselves roman citizens) were Romans. Greeks called themselves, romaioi, jews called themselves romaniotes, etc. The Gypsies came in this part of the world about the year 1000 where called by the Romaioi, Atsinganoi. Later on, some groups, who lived in the proximity of the latins of the Balkans, the vlahs, or the romanians (calling themselve also ruma, rum, aromanian, arman which created the patronim Armani) starting calling themselves ruma/roma.
In 1949 Tito, who tried to control Yugoslavia through a divisive policy, founded the first a "Roma" political activism. From that moment, the "Roma" activism was entrenched in the leftist (communist) camp, being financed and stimulated by leftist ideologies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.86.3 ( talk) 16:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
(Roma people means Roms people - should be Romani people) - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
the appalling social and economic situation of the Roma, who account for between 8 and 10 percent of Hungary's 10 million people that means 800,000-1,000,000. -- Marc KJH ( talk) 17:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Why aren't the archive links working? Rezistenta ( talk) 23:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Now, could someone please fix the archives? A huge (and I think I could say a very important) chunk of the previous discussions is currently missing. They can still be accessed, sure (via earlier diffs of this talk page), but it really would be nice if someone could fix this. Whether that means putting the archives back or putting some of the formerly archived information on the main discussion page, I personally think either way is fine. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 13:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I am from a Romani family and my family find the title "Gypsy" very offensive. The title is short for Egyptian which in todays time we know is definetely not what we are. I thought we lived in a time of political correctness. I can understand gypsy being directed here but to actually have it in the title. Please remove the word from the title as surely this is wrong. Tsigans / Cigans is acceptable as this is a title used by many Romani groups themselves. signed "Chavo" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk • contribs) 23:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually many people that try to call themselves "gypsy" are just plain old travellers and don't even have "Romani" blood. This especially the case in the UK and the United States where normal European travellers are looking for an identity. The Gitanos of Spain call themselves Kale or Gitano / Cigano (from Tsigane). Gipsy Kings only used the word "Gypsy" to recognised of their background to the universal market. The name is probably more to do with marketing their music as opposed to a name they use amongst their own people. Signed 'Chavo' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk • contribs) 21:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
This article appears to have been moved from Roma people to Gypsies (Roma people) without consensus for the move, by User:Marc KJH. I have restored it to the original version. Jeepday ( talk) 13:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
being a gypsy myself I must say untill few years ago I never heard about the term Roma or Romani for our group, the new term is certainly not pushed by us but more probable by others, we use the term cigane or tsigane to desigante ourselves not roma or romani .. I wanted to clarify this because I see many untrue things probably commented by non-gypsies 82.103.71.98 ( talk) 03:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
The word Rom means 'husband / respected married male' and his wife is a Romni in most Romani groups. Some Roms may call themselves Tsigane as a racial group but never "Gypsy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 ( talk) 22:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
English Romanichals refer to the "Roma" coming into England from Eastern Europe as "Roms". Roma translates into the English language as "Roms". Roma is the Romani way of spelling Rom as a plural. This article is in the English language and not Romani - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
Indeed, I think this whole dispute is silly. On one side one has "minority rights" guys that would not accept "gypsy", and on the other you have guys that won't accept "roma", even if it's used by a sizeable part of media nowadays.
And nobody proposes the actual middle way, which is to present both names (and others, such as Tsigan) on an equal basis, just like it's done in dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster. Dpotop ( talk) 16:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what the current name is, but beware that any of Roma, Gypsy is OK (there are reliable sources for both). For Tsigan is not so clear, because it's about English language usage. So, I still think this dispute is stupid, and the only issue here is explaining that both names are OK, and why. And then, you make a link and that's it. Dpotop ( talk) 19:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone agree that the external links section needs cutting down? I propose deleting any dead links, getting rid of those to NGOs that are locally based in cities (such as Leeds) and just leaving the major national or international ones, and getting rid of some of the resource-type links. Cordless Larry ( talk) 11:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
It is not Roma homeland. Roma in English translates as "Roms" as 'a' makes the word a plural. Therefore by saying Roma homeland we are saying Roms homeland. It is Romani Homeland. If you say Rom's Homeland then Rom's is a reference to a single Rom - correct? - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
Section seems like a complete WP:CRUFT anyway and probably an attempt by some European freak to get rid of Roma people as being discussed here: [5] based on a supposed nostalgic desire that may or may not have been expressed by Roma people. Desione ( talk) 00:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Go for it then. Create a "Roma interaction with modern India" section. Would be good. Lihaas ( talk) 14:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
There's great injustice for The Romanian Nation to use the name Roma, Romani for Gypsies. It's a big confusion. The strangers can say that Romania is the land of the Gypsies. See Romani for Gypsies. This is an aberation. Or Roma. What's that? That's sh...t. Nobody asked Romanians if they agree with that and that's a shame to hide the Gypsies behind the Romanians. Romanian - different - Gypsy or Roma. Unless use the term Rroma for no confusion. I don't care that in English they ended to call Roma. The rules are made by man. Romania is the land of Romanian Nation. The minority of Gypsy Etnie should not use the name of country. How about Francs for Gypsy from France instead French people? Nice isn't that? Or Brits instead British people? Corect? Or Hongory insteand Hungarians? True? Should I continue? Ok. Germa for Germans, Itals for Italians, Spans for Spanish, etc. So Ady from Japan , Tara unde poate iti vei lumina mintea, you in quality of Romanian not as Gypsy or "Rroma" and not Roma, you must watch for interest of your country. It's about identity of Romanians (Rumanians) Nation and not about discrimination. It's about the right to exist with the name in respect. The Gypsies can build their respect with an solid education and decently instead steeling Romanians identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.116.76.113 ( talk) 21:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
My friend... The Rom or Roma name has nothing to do with Romania - "There is no etymological connection between the name Roma (ethnicity) and the city of Rome, ancient Rome, Romania, the Romanian people or the Romanian language." It is a mere coincidence! Read the etymological section of the article before saying such... ignorant platitudes! The Ogre ( talk) 00:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
What strange coincidence! In my ignorance, there's almost no difference between Romanians and Romanies. You must listen first very carefully the name and after that you can make the difference. It's very nice to observe in my ignorance that for the first time it was Roma, after that it was Romanes, after Romani and now Romanies. In what language are you writing in this page? I suppose that it is English. Ok, then, why do you decline that words in the Gypsies language in English. How nice, you ignorant. You can do better then speaking lies and acuzing me for ignorance. Let's be clear : what's the image of Romania in Europe? A land that provides Gypsy children to the streets of Europe. So why me, why should I be Gypsy? Only because I'm Romanian, not Gypsy (see confusion Romani, Romanies, Romanes). You can say all the great things, that make a noble man. Romanians are Romanians and the Gypsies are Gypsies. Every people can chose his way of beeing. Romanians have already one (Romania is a country of Romanian Nation; remember the name), so The gypsies can now chose their way respecting the others. See Romanians. Do that and that's ok. Please don't tell me bulsh..ts like English already chosed the name for the Gypsies. You can see the name's variety for theese. Now it's a proces to define theese peoples (the gypsies). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv ( talk • contribs) 05:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC) — Nomád Terv ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
(moved from attempted re-start of identical duscussion in a new section):
There's great injustice for The Romanian Nation to use the name Roma, Romani for Gypsies. It's a big confusion. The strangers can say that Romania is the land of the Gypsies. See Romani for Gypsies. This is an aberation. Or Roma. What's that? That's sh...t. Nobody asked Romanians if they agree with that and that's a shame to hide the Gypsies behind the Romanians. Romanian - different - Gypsy or Roma. Unless use the term Rroma for no confusion. I don't care that in English they ended to call Roma. The rules are made by man. Romania is the land of Romanian Nation. The minority of Gypsy Etnie should not use the name of country. How about Francs for Gypsy from France instead French people? Nice isn't that? Or Brits instead British people? Corect? Or Hongory insteand Hungarians? True? Should I continue? Ok. Germa for Germans, Itals for Italians, Spans for Spanish, etc. So, it's about identity of Romanians (Rumanians) Nation and not about discrimination. It's about the right to exist with the name in respect. The Gypsies can build their respect with an solid education and decently instead steeling Romanians identity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nomád Terv ( talk • contribs) 16:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
In the English language Romani for the Romani Gypsy people is recognised. Romani for Romanians is not recognised within the English language - simple. Rumania and Rumanians is recognised within the English language. If you have a hang up then use the latter form of the word - thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk) 20:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
'for Hardless Larry : Dear I'trying to make You understand that I have the right to say that. Others like you
don't understand that. So, for every day that this article exists I consider that it's my duty to write those words. If you don't like it shut up and don't interfere in this.' —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
78.96.153.180 (
talk)
17:36, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
NT - are you trying to make a point? Why then would you do this [6]? it is contrary to your stated goal of disambiguating the two groups. Please make your points in a more civil and constructive way. István ( talk) 19:31, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Romania should go back to writing Rumania which is an alternate English way of spelling it and is also used by Romanians themselves. The only other possible way of spelling Romani is Ramani as the word may derive from the Indic word Raman, but this is not proven. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
Is there any proof of the claim that Norway forced them to be sterilized till 1977? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.185.104 ( talk) 20:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Are the Banjara Romani? The reference for the population in India specifically says Banjara -- Maurice45 ( talk) 14:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Where did this end up? I've reviewed some of the online resources that are referenced here (footnotes 67, 68, 69) and they do NOT provide any evidence that the Banjara are in anyway related to the Roma.
"The Gypsies" book by Angus Fraser on pages 26-30 provides some background to the debate. This section linking the Banjara and Roma should be removed or edited to indicate that the Banjara-Roma link is an unattested claim. --
Vickramj (
talk)
13:31, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Of course the Banjara are not Romani. They do not even know the word unless through Europeans teaching them of the Romani people in Europe. The Romani may have Banjara blood in them but the Banjara do not come from the Romani people - signed Tsigan. - —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
77.96.254.123 (
talk •
contribs) 29 July 2008
Ok, so we start from the fact that the Roma people originated from Multan. Right, so Multan is in Pakistan, the southern Punjab region of Pakistan. Yet the author of this article fails to mention this anywhere. Why does the article state that Multan is in Rajahstan? I would advise the person to pick up a South Asia map frankly.
And why so many references to "Indian Subcontinent" when you know that Roma people originated from Multan? Do you realise how big the "Indian Subcontinent" actually is? A good 1.6 billion people live there, spread across half a dozen countries.
This article is so geographically challenged that its not even funny. I know a few Indians on wikipedia use the British Raj version of the Indian map so they can call all things Pakistan, Indian, but for the sake of knowledge please correct this. Thank you.
--
Xinjao (
talk)
17:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
In fact, speaking of that "Origins" section - it seems (to me, at least) that a lot of the information there is either misleading or (as in the case of the "Jatts-Rajputs-Khatris") total nonsense Maybe these problems can be taken care of later, probably when this page is in a more stable state. For now, though, let me repeat my question and put it in bold print, just in case people failed to notice:
Anyone opposed to removing the paragraphs inserted here? They were included by a banned sockpuppet of a banned user. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 21:40, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
this is not nonsiense any more than other present theories. Lets be sensible. It is proven that the Roms speak a different root language to the Domari / Ghorbati tribes of Asia so therefore left India completely independent to the Domari / Ghorbati who were probably taken to Persian as musician. The Roms leaving India due to war is a very sensible suggestion. more so than suggestions that Rom comes from Dom even thought the Indian root language is different and the word Rom means 'husband' like the Indian word Raman. It seems too coincidentental that Romano / Romani has its root from Roman which is again very close to Raman. The evidence is more sensible than saying Rom = Dom. Using trades as a means to tie the two together is also of no use as they are just doing trades available at the time whether metal work, wood work, entertainment as is seen with all nomadic people. Is an Italian resturant owner in America related to a Turkish resturant owner because they have adapted to the America market with the same trades? - please get real. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
In the "origins" section it said the Nazis claimed the Roma "weren't 'Aryan' (whatever that term means)". I cut out the parenthetical bit, dropped the quotes around the term Aryan and linked the word to the Wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.225.162.219 ( talk) 17:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The changes are not "unexplained" - the edit summary includes the explanation:
"[...]not backed up by sources" -- Kuaichik ( talk) 06:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Data on the number of Roma in Hungary is being changed, so I think it should be discussed what are the "real" numbers and what references can be considered as reliable. Timur lenk ( talk) 10:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
In Hungary, ethnicity is a question of choice. While it is a politically very liberal solution, it can be sometimes problematic. Ways of deciding ethnicity can be asking mother tongue, cultural affinity or ethnic identity, or to ask others (neighbors) about the given persons ethnicity or can be the enumerator's decision. The latter two "methods" use mainly external characters so it can be very offensive to consider someone to be a member of an ethnicity that she or he seems to be part of.
I don't think it is a problem to indicate more data - the point is the reliable primary reference. The basic problem with estimates is that they are based on some kind of "objective" parameters (skin color, way of life and habits etc.) or in other words, prejudice - however, ethnicity is a very subjective characteristic of a person, not something that can be "diagnosed" by others. Timur lenk ( talk) 15:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry but what kind of argumentation and tone is that? Please study netiquette on use of ALL CAPS. Yelling does not replace arguments. The name “Roma” is of Romany origin, the Roma (or, in your words, Gypsies) refer to themselves as “rom” in the Romany language - it is clearly described in the article. The sources stating a population of 1,000,000 Roma in Hungary give little or no info on "the procedure of estimating the real number of this populace". Again, please stick to verifiable data. Thank you. Timur lenk ( talk) 01:34, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I apologize for my last comment here. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 23:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
(Cut and pasted here from below as I didn't know about this discussion): I'm removing romaweb.hu, a governmental site exclusively dealing with Roma people. László Hablicsek himself says his study is not neutral, because the author is involved (see page 4, bolded in Hungarian).
The European Roma Rights Centre (ERRC) is an international public interest law organisation engaging in a range of activities aimed at combating anti-Romani racism and human rights abuse of Roma.
Doesn't qualify as a neutral source for disputed data.
Demos is acceptable (a foundation not exclusively dealing with Roma people), they estimate Romas' number between 450000 and 600000 (page 45).
IHT (European edition of NYT) is a reliable source estimating the number of Roma in Hungary between 500000 and 1 million. But there is
also a NYT article talking about Roma "who make up between 6 and 8 percent of Hungary's population of some 10 million". Which means between 600000 and 800000. I'm adding the NYT article.
The Romnews source is not a neutral source, their reliability is also questionable.
The United Nations estimates the number of Roma in Hungary
around 600000. Reliable, neutral source, I'm adding it.
Squash Racket (
talk)
09:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
It's a bit strange that NYT and its European edition, IHT estimated the number of Roma in Hungary quite differently. NYT says 600000 to 800000, IHT says 500000 to 1 million(!). Can these sources be considered reliable regarding these numbers? What was their source for these estimations? Squash Racket ( talk) 11:21, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Re: this - They're "generally arrested...at a much higher rate"? What does that even mean? That sometimes the police say, "Eh, I'm tired of imprisoning 'gypsies'. Let's go after (insert name of some other minority) instead!"?
No offense intended, by the way. Bulgaria is just one of the countries listed in that report. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 20:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
Under this term I found "Some authorities[citation needed] recognize five main groups:" a citation is needed. I probably found a relevant article, but I am new here, so would rather discuss it before making changes. So this article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=31389 has the descriptions of these groups, but it itself has this article as a citation. (Fraser, A. The Gypsies. Oxford: Blackwell Publishers, 1992.)
And I am not sure , which one, we should site, because the later, is not available online. Studentmed ( talk) 15:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The word Roma means 'Roms'. It is not "Roms communities", it is "Romani communities". - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
There are lot of articles in established journals about the health of people living in Roma settlements. I think we should either start a new article about their health or , we should add some information about their health to this existing article. Comments/ suggestions?? Studentmed ( talk) 19:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The article mentions "indigenous religion". What is the Roma indigenous religion? yokyle ( talk) 04:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
The word Roma means 'Roms'. It is not "Roms Religion", it is "Romani Religion". - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk • contribs) 29 July 2008
So, for some time, especially since Romania was accepted in EU, we have a serious problem in Romani-related articles, concerning the Romanian users and their seemingly never-ending identity crisis. They don't listen to anyone, they don't want to present any serious argumentation, they only resort incessantly to the tactic known in Romanian as ţigăneală. What should we do with them? As if it wouldn't be enough the amount of work pending in Romani-related articles, now we have to waste our time with their desire to make history by all means right here on Wikipedia.
For those who don't know the background of the problem, let's detail its main points. For both Romanies and Romanians, the integration in the modern world meant coping with the imagery of parallel exonyms used by the others, Gypsy, respectively V(a)lah. In both cases, it was promoted the endonym, in order to go beyond stereotypes and bring their identity in the modern world. For the Romanies the naming issues stopped here. However, the Romanians embarked on a series of name-related identity experiments whose results we may see in endless blah on this talk page and vandalisms in the Romani articles. The name Romanian (Român in contemporary Romanian language) itself is a modern creation. Their endonym was Rumîn until a century and a half ago, but they changed it to Român in order to look more similar to Rome, the city of their ancestors. The background was their fear that they are not European enough, an obsession unchanged until nowadays. For someone living in Romania it can't pass a day without hearing integrarea în Europa (integration in Europe), adaptarea la valorile europene (adaptation to the European values), or without being reminded about the popular distinction between Romania and Europe [23] [24]..
Not solving yet these uncertainties, now they found another possibility to pursue their habit of ethnic name changes, hence we see this continuous Romanian violence on Romani-related articles. The issue in a nutshell: the Romanians found that the Romanies have a name too close to their new one, unleashing their identity paranoia. The delusion's result: hey, you have a name too similar to my own, what would the others think about me, change yours immediately!
Here I should remind that there are countless names worldwide differing only by few letters, but, unless there is an identity crisis there, nobody gives a damn on their closeness. Everybody knows what they mean, they have enough neurons in their head to make a distinction between how sound Slovakia and Slovenia, Prussian and Russian (as other users said previously). However, we have the Romanian guys here on Wikipedia and also in real life, with a revolutionary vision on such matters. This is something like a linguistic rebellion started by the English word unknown, demanding to be written from now on as un-know-n, with short stops in pronunciation for the two dashes, so that every speaker should never forget its shocking origin and, on the other hand, to replace the word noun with vdhjgrynmhdsfyr, so that to alleviate unknown's fear that noun would violate its linguistic identity. I think it is not necessary the opinion of a linguist or, better, of a psychiatrist to see the mechanisms of such approach.
In this manner, we can see how the Romani-related articles became mostly a Romanian affair. We have represented here the usual types of persons that appear also in real life around this issue. We have Bogdangiusca, the Romanian intellectual Mitică-stlye, the "little Parisian" bearing centuries-old inferiority complexes, always comparing Romania with Western Europe and using, inside the Romanian environment, the "blaming the Gypsy" technique to explain the differences, while outside this environment, the "hiding the Gypsy" technique to appease his fears of lacking Europeanness. I wrote earlier about his work on hiding the cultural presence of the Romanies in Romania. The situation is now mostly the same as one year ago. Without discussion, only with a fallacious reason, he moved this article from "Romani people" to "Roma people". For the same purpose, he proposed for deletion the articles Names of the Romani people, Roma (Romani subgroup). Also I see he started the article Slavery in Romania, using fringe-theories known only in Romania. According to them, the Romanians are absolved of any guilt concerning this historical issue, because the Romanies came as slaves (!) in contemporary Romania. The neighboring populations allegedly enslaved them first and for some inscrutable reasons they gave them to the Romanians. Plus, he is too conceited to talk to Romanies, he does not communicate, only sometimes gives short notices.
He is an administrator, this status making him the local hero [25] [26] of the outward Romanian extremists. And he does not mind letting them do the dirty work. Rezistenta, former Adrianzax, the extremist who eulogize Bogdan, is an user who should have been banned long time ago. He comes with conspiracy theories with paranoid scenarios about how the Romanies will take over Romania. However, unsurprisingly, the things he blame on the Romanies can be applied to him, the notion of psychological projection describing well his behavior. He gave countless threats to users who do not fit his agenda, he disrupted the editing process with reverts giving fallacious explanations, Bogdangiusca-style (no need for examples, most of his edits are of this kind), he deleted the talk of other users [27] [28], also he keeps deleting the talk on his own user page [29] [30]. He has no respect for logic and morality, coming with invented words like Domani (in his attempt to change the name of the Romanies), he supports the pejorative term gypsy, but he does not mind elsewhere to say that it is different from Romani [31] in order to hide things.
An old acquaintance of this talk page, Dpotop, is representative for the Romanians going abroad, thus out of soap-bubble of the Romanian society, experiencing the tough reality of the difference between the imagery ingrained at home about the Romanians as one of the greatest people ever and the fact that the outsiders tend to name the capital of Romania as either Budapest or Sofia. "Blaming the Gypsy" technique is an easy solution for such people, making him too ending attracted to this article like a butterfly to a lamp.
Somewhere in the background, is Dahn, the Romanian intellectual with a self-assured worldview, not needing to rely on the Romanies in order to create the Romanian identity or to resort to scapegoatism. Unfortunately he is not yet representative for the Romanian society, inevitably, being the subject of violence from the "resistant" Romanian users.
We had also an episode of the Gypsimpics, the on-going Olympics of Gypsiness from Central Europe. However, here too the Romanians are the bad guys, they are on offensive against the others.
My view is that this Gypsy fixation of the Romanians has gone too far, already it has done many damages in the prospects of inter-ethnic communication, while a good Romanian saying reminds that it is necessary să laşi loc de bună ziua ("to let room for a hello"). What should I say to them? Why your obsession with imaginea României în străinătate ("the image of Romania abroad"), theoretically a very good thing, should be transposed in reality only through the paranoid fears about lacking Europeaness? Nothing good will come from this. It only shows your identity problems. Look at the Spaniards, theoretically in the same position as you, with originally non-European influences, be they Arabic, Romani, Jewish. However, they were self-assured about who they were, they considered these influences as European, who says now they are not Europeans? Moreover, they benefit from the presence of the Romanies there (saying Flamenco is enough). BTW, you too consider Flamenco as European. But in Romania... the authorities bribe the team from Travel Channel to film only the Romanians, but not the Romanies, some days ago the organizers of the Traditional Handicrafts' Fair from Bucharest tried to forbid the presence of the Romani craftsmen, allegedly because they were not registered correctly. It was necessary to fight legally and to prove that the registering happened correctly.
And here what kind of image are you making? Who represents you? This? If you would have been really concerned about your image, you should have been the first to kick out this "Romanian", in order to keep a civilized behavior on Romanian-concerning issues. He is one of the Gypsiest persons I ever saw. Here I want to say that personally I do not accept to be named Gypsy, Gypsy is someone fitting the Gypsy stereotypes. And considering the Romanian activity on Romani-related articles, I invite everyone decide who are the the winners of the Gypsimpcs. I guess that if there would be somewhere willingness on your side to make an U turn and reconsider your Gypsy fixation, you will have some work to do, because I see that the others found your weak point. A weak point that only invites problems. And obviously letting your "resistants" do the dirty work, only adds problems and barbarism.
Look at the Italians, theoretically in the same position as you: if someone googles Romani, rather than Romanians and Romanies it is rather likely to encounter something related to Rome, due to its higher visibility and economic importance. Did they say that the Romanies are attempting to hijack their identity and the name of their Roman ancestors? No, obviously, they are not such idiot. Now, don't tell me that "who are we compared to the Italians and so on...". If you do not have self-confidence, then build it, don't jump on the others. Face your issues, what would your neighbors think about you when they will find out that you put on their shoulders the burden of slavery from Romania? If you feel less visible than the Romanies, don't try to obliterate us. Nothing good will come out of this on any of the sides. Work on your Romanian-related articles to become visible, instead coming here and displaying your cowardness. Do you really expect us to give up? Citing from the personal page one of the faithful Romanian contributors to this talk page:
I see that Romani persons started to use the term V(a)lah instead Romanian, as a counterpart to this violence.
As a conclusion, the fact is that currently something is rotten in Romania, namely this Gypsy addiction. The notion of Gypsy is like a drug, "blaming the Gypsy" torpids the pains, gives egoistic satisfactions, makes possible all kind of surrealistic visions of the world. But of course, there is the reverse, a society continuously " high on Gypsy" is incapable to face the reality, the best thing they can do being to hide their addiction. Last year I wrote on this talk page how the Romanian prime minister blamed Romanies for the image problems of the Romanian citizens in Italy. However, at that moment, the cases cited in the Italian media were only about ethnic Romanians [32] [33]. Hence, they waited until November, when finally there appeared a Romani case ("Mailat case"), to start the usual scapegoatism, immediately reverberating also on Wikipedia, giving new fuel to the post EU admission violence.
Hopefully, there will appear some ways for the Romanians to face the reality, otherwise they will be only on the losing side (here concerning me too, because I have Romanian citizenship). Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 16:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Re: Rezistenta's last comment: True, not everybody agrees with Prof. Hancock. For that matter, though, not everybody agrees with anybody, right? Besides, this does not seem to be one of those areas where any scholars refute Prof. Hancock per se - even Prof. Matras uses the word "Romani" instead of "Roma," as you can see here. -- Kuaichik ( talk) 19:37, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
It's possible that Roma IS more common than Romani people, but
Alternately, we could use "Romani people" which
Ordinarily, I'm all for "most common wins" but there's a legitimate reason why that would cause confusion in this case. This seems like an easy NPOV solution to me, siding neither with Roma or Romanies. - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 22:16, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
The last time I expressed a view on this talk page was on April Fool's Day, so I don't understand why my name appears in this extremist rant by User:Desiphral. I also refrained from editing the article itself, exactly because I know to what extremes some pro-Romani NGOs and their representatives are ready to push their discourse. I won't get into technicalities here. I will simply remind this unhappy Romanian citizen of Roma ethnicity that he lives in a country that allowed Roma to live and multiply to a larger degree than any surrounding or Western country. This is true even today: If he does not believe me, I suggest he follows the news of Western countries, especially in what regards expulsions of Romanian citizens and the fact that nobody wants around what the French call fr:Gens du voyage. Now, problems exist, and I never said Romania is the greatest country, etc, which is what this guy seems to imply. So, problems have existed and exist, in particular in what concerns the integration of Roma. However, I think these guys should cut the crap concerning "historical guilt", and "it's your fault we do not integrate". I understand Desiphral would want the entire Romanian GDP, and maybe all EU aid be dedicated to Roma, but this is not feasible. Moreover, this discourse is simply drawing away attention from *the main problem* of pro-Roma efforts, which is the following: What was proved to work on Roma integration is not throwing money to the problem, because such money ends up in the accounts of a few NGOs and mafia leaders. Instead, what works is a slow process of: (1) education, (2) sedentarization, which is a constant in Western culture, not just in Romania, and (3) anti-discrimination education of the majority population. All of these are already on the way. Like in the US for the African-Americans, I would say, except they were already sedentarized. Dpotop ( talk) 19:23, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
That infobox is enormously long, and it's mostly just populations by country. Any way we could make that section collapsible? - TheMightyQuill ( talk) 15:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
With respect to the tile 'Roma people' then I agree this is wrong.
The word Roma is using Romani grammar as it is the plural of Rom using the Romani 'a' for grammar. To quote
The word Rroma / Roma is not an English word, but is with Romani grammar and is the plural of the word Rom. In the English language it is ‘Roms’. English mixed blooded Romanichal travellers of the UK who come into contact with the fuller blooded Rroma of the continent have always referred to them as ‘Roms’. It is Gaje (non-Romani) scholars that are now calling them Roma.
The tile should either be Roms or Romane / Romani people.
Using the terminating letter 'e' in the english is not wrong as english has words like 'Cafe' which sound the same. As for being called 'Gypsy'. No Rom calls themself a gypsy unless to gaje.
But Baxtalo
It mentions Romani / Romane tribes called Luri.
Is this correct as I was of the understanding the Luri were in Asia and were an un-related Domari tribe speaking a different Indic language to the Roms?
The Etymology and also the section on asia and the middle east is very incorrect and unbacked up by any proven facts and needs to be corrected. There is no proven ties between the Ghorbati (Domii) of asia and the Rroma from of Europe. The section refers to Asian nomadic groups as 'Gypsy' even though they have no past connection or mistaken connection to Egypt.
In Ghorbati / Domari they speak a language from a different origin to the Romani language.
Romani for example uses Rajasthani grammar of o on masculine words (i.e. Miro / Muro = my (masculine). Domari uses the typical Hindi grammar of Mera. Romani uses the Rajasthani / Rajputti word Kako for 'uncle' whereas Ghorbati uses the different rooted Indian word Mamun.
Romani words for brother, sister, house, horse & over there are; Phral, Phen, Kher (pronounced like the English word 'care'), Khuro (meaning ‘Colt’) and Othe which are all like modern Panjabi Phra, Phen, Khar, Khora, Othe.
Domii / Domari uses the following; Bar, Beynam, Gar, Gori & Hundar. Compare this to modern Hindi; Bhai, Bahin, Ghar, Gura & Udhar. We can now see that the Romani language uses Rajasthani / Rajputti grammar and borrows from Panjabi whereas Domii / Domari doesn't. Domii / Domari also has three gender where as Romani like modern Rajasthani / Panjabi etc only has two. This shows the two peoples had different home territories whilst still in India as we can see they spoke different languages / dialects. If there is any connection between the two then it goes back further into India as the two spoke different Indian languages and if thiere is a connection then it is still not as yet a proven or accepted fact, hence the article on here being incorrect.
In addition to this the article in the first paragraph says how the word Dom means man and then in the next paragraph points out how the Romani word Rom means 'married man'. Interestingly not all Romani tribes call themselves Roma but just use the word Rom meaning 'husband'. Most do use the word Romani (f), Romano (m) & Romane (p) which are all gender variations of the word Roman. Something else this article fails to point out is the Sanskrit word Raman also meaning 'husband / married man'.
The same way the word Lolo (m) Loli (f) meaning 'red' derives from lala / lali, Romano (m) Romani (f) could derive from Ramana / Ramani. The female equiverlent of Rom is Romni. Both could be short spoken corruptions of Raman and Ramani.
To include Romani with the word Gypsy is very politically incorrect as many if not most Roms find this word offensive. The word Gypsy means 'Egyptian' and the Romani people are not from Egypt.
There should be a seperate page explaining the word Gypsy and how it is short for the word Egytian and how the word was mistakenly applied to Roms. It can also cover how many people mistakenly used the word today as an alternative to traveller or nomadic group.
If people then choose to look further into the Roms / Romani people they can link from that page. This way it is not the least bit offensive or degrading to the Romani people. It also covers any arguement with the basic FACTS (which is what this site is supposed to be about). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.254.123 ( talk) 22:39, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
The infobox lists India with 5,794,000 Romani, more than any other country, but the section of the article on population states the following: "The largest population of Romanies is found in the Balkan peninsula; significant numbers also live in the Americas, the former Soviet Union, Western Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa." India's not even mentioned here. Can someone explain this? – SJL 15:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Italy has started fingerprinting Roma living within its territory. I don't have time at the moment to incorporate this information into the article myself, but maybe someone else will. – SJL 15:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
I was about to undo this good faith edit, but I thought about it again.
See, that edit is fine, but the wording sounds a bit odd. It says "This widely dispersed ethnic group lives across the world, not only in Eurasia, but also in the Americas and the Middle East." But...the Middle East is in Eurasia! :-P
And yet there is another problem. What should it be changed to? The original said that the Romanies live "not only in Europe, but also in the Americas and the Middle East." But there are Romanies in Iran (and possibly other borderline "Middle Eastern" countries), and it seems that there are also Romanies in China and even Singapore (though I still maintain that there are no Romanies known to live in India). So, should it be changed back to "Europe," or to something like "...Europe...the Americas and Asia"? -- Kuaichik ( talk) 23:20, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure what a founder population is. It would help to link to an article that covers that information. 70.16.2.17 ( talk) 10:11, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
Just saw Rezistenta revert of my edit. Well, my edit was a change of a non-member edit. I was going to revert this edit, but i bothered to look at the sources (of which there are multiple) and saw the max number was 19.4m. These are not my numbers. These are numbers of already sourced edits. The max was 19.4m that's why the site says a MAX. number for "Other estimations." Not even the prime estimation that is still disputed, but the OTHER estimations. in future can people please DISCUSS before all but minor edits on such a big article. Lihaas ( talk) 00:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I responded to Rezistenta on his user page in an entirely civil manner saying after he explained the info made more sense. but before edits people need to discuss (this often happens that people jump to edits, without discussion, i myself have been guilty of this. but this is also happened before that civility and reason brought about a better conclusion). The previous number said 22.4m so I looked at all the sources, and, at the time, the 19.4m, which did seem high, was pegged next to Romani. The fact the English wikipedia used foreign language sources can cause confusion, even though it is legitimate. And also assuming good faith is equal to assuming changed are not made as vandalism. It does not mean "how was I support to know..." I don't know if Rezistenta has read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Civility but it'll help to prevent further flare ups. I could have been in my right mind to report this but I see Themightyquill has done so. (Thank you for your support in preserving civility, even though our edits didn't agree we can still be civil and discuss) There are other occasions (for example: see the original page for Zana Krasniqi) with blatant POV violations, but, on that occassion at least, I re did the article, and the others made edits back to keep it as a better POV. Lihaas ( talk) 16:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
In this edit, AKoan reverted the edits of an IP user. However, in doing so, he changed the original estimate for the number of Romani people in the world from the original "15 million or more" to "15 million." Before his edit (and that of another IP), the article originally said "15 million or more."
Shouldn't it be kept the way it was before, i.e. "15 million or more"? Clearly, there are controversies regarding the number of Romanies in various countries, and not all Romanies have been accounted for on Wikipedia (not even in the more exhaustive list Romani people by country!). For example, there are (apparently) Romanies in China and Singapore, but you can't see China or Singapore in that list. (In fact, it's quite possible that there are no estimates available for the number of Romanies in China or Singapore.) -- Kuaichik ( talk) 23:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)