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When the two editors who seem to have a stranglehold on this talkpage, and thus the article, have either moved on or at least stop digressing every thread into tangents thus repelling other editors away and insisting that every change they don't like be sent through their preferred processes I'd be happy to offer opinions and clean-up efforts again. Frankly, if the wisdom of covering a subjects early life at the beginning of their article is edit-warred on I don't see much point in remaining. IMHO, it's a disservice to our readers as well as common sense. I offer my best wishes to those who remain. -- Banjeboi 15:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
OK, this is kind of a tit-for-tat exercise, so I will answer your points, and then I would like to resume looking just at the article. 1. I've answed this elsewhere, and as I've also said, it's less important when the reasons were given if the main objective is to improve the article. Simply, the comment made by more than one editor is that a dual chronology creates a disjointed effect. Nobody has convinced me otherwise, and I can't see an argument anywhere that says "no, it's not disjointed". 2. I agree that you are not my leader, but you certainly seem to comment on everything and you keep on going until other editors give up and move on. That can't be good for any article. 3. I think you are misreading WP:STYLE. It doesn't address the specific layout or structural issues under discussion. Further it is a 'guideline' only, meaning that even those things that are explicitly stated are not mandatory if editors choose otherwise. Most of what is covered under this style guideline are topics such as naming conventions and maintaining consistency within a given article. Nothing says that the structure can't be changed. What you really should be concerned about is WP:CONSENSUS, something we clearly do not have. 4. I agree with "quality over quantity". I also feel that a fairly inexperienced editor who has only contributed to one article, should at some point ponder "maybe I don't know everything". You're throwing comments at editors who have edited over a long period of time, over a range of article types and who have seen numerous articles and talk page discussions. You seem a little too sure that you have all the answers, but I don't doubt that you have good intentions. 5. I am glad you are aware of WP:OWN. 6. The edits had no consensus. I've not disputed that, so please do not invite me to now. My comment was that if you had allowed the edits to stand just long enough for people to comment, it might have allowed the article to advance. Instead you put it back to where it was, and whatever chance there was of something being built from it, you knocked it on the head. It wasn't necessarily the wrong thing to do, but it wasn't helpful either. Sometimes it's useful to look outside the square and outside the policies, even if you ultimately return. 7. "collaborative editing, guidelines, and consensus" are important to me, and I've been around long enough to know what they all mean, and to have participated in them on numerous occasions. I never said I didn't think them worthwhile to continue with here, so please don't put words in my mouth. And thank you, I'll be sure not to let the door hit me in the arse if I walk away. 8. This is a major point. Just because the article has stood in a certain way for a period of time, doesn't make it right. I've seen 100s of shoddy articles stripped bare and rebuilt over the years I've been here, and we should be thankful that they didn't remain in a particular shape just because they'd always been so. That's a counterproductive way of viewing any article. You are very one-eyed about it though. Yes, I identified several articles that use a similar structure, but you fail to mention I found almost as many that don't. I'll explain why I think the structure is a problem, but I'll comment in a separate area, so that if anyone wishes to comment, they can. 9. So are we all, but you seem to be setting yourself up as the editor who must be satisfied before anything can be done. Rossrs ( talk) 14:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Is there a consensus among editors here, at least for now, to go with the article structure contributed by User:Banjeboi? Gwen Gale ( talk) 22:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
This is long, but please be patient.
Currently the article is broken into sections and subsections that are individually easy to read. If someone comes to the article and wants to read only about Sharon Tate's murder, or only about the sex crime case or only about a certain period in Polanski's filmmaking career, the article accommodates that reader and they can read what they want and then leave. I don't think the structure is "terrible" but I think it is less successful when read from the start to the end.
Imagine someone who is not very familiar with Polanski, visiting the article and reading it from the beginning to the end. Forget the lead, just for now. It's basically OK. They start reading the article. A bit about his early life. His film work. He seems to have done nothing between 1968 and 1973. Interesting. 5 years of nothing. Then in the "Return to Europe" section, the first sentence ... "Polanski's first feature following Sharon Tate's murder ..." What ???? Sharon Tate was murdered??? But wait, she starred in one of Polanski's films, so why would he be concerned? It's not like they were married or anything... at least, the article doesn't say they were. Last we heard of Sharon she was in the "Gérard Brach collaborations" section, where she was happily starring in The Fearless Vampire Killers (1967) and now it's 1971 and she's been murdered?? OK, keep reading. Now I'm confused. In the last paragraph he made Chinatown in 1973, and now he's in Europe making The Tragedy of MacBeth in 1971? Did he get there by time-machine? And what of "clearly intended to evoke the Manson killings"? Manson who? Back to the Tardis and he's having a second 1973, and making another film. Not Chinatown which he made a few paragraphs ago, but something called What? So by now I'm not thinking What?, but I am thinking WTF? Finally, it's 1976. So Polanski makes a film called The Tenant (1976).... then "Unwilling to work in the United States after 1978 for fear of jail, Polanski continued to work in Europe." I'm surprised that they'd want to put him in jail for making The Tenant. (I've seen it, and ... yes, maybe they should put him in jail!) OK, keep reading.... "to the memory of his late wife, Sharon Tate." So we find out she's dead before we find out they were married? Later - "Polanski did not attend the Academy Awards ceremony in Hollywood because he would have been arrested once he set foot in the United States." Why are they still chasing him? And then, "Prior to his September 2009 arrest in Switzerland...." OK, they got him, and we still haven't spilt the beans about why. Agatha Christie would have even given a clue, and somehow we forgot to read the lead section, probably because we thought we could just read the article. So keep on reading... well he's been married a few times, and for those of us who were wondering who Sharon Tate was, finally an entire paragraph about her. So that odd sentence at the beginning of "Return to Europe" was right after all, and all that blood in The Tragedy of MacBeth was about Sharon. Makes sense now. Keep reading. "Sexual assualt case". Well no wonder he was so anxious about being arrested! And oh, he sued Vanity Fair a few years ago. Big deal. Now that's a crazy stream to have to wade through, and I've intentionally pointed out the absurdities, because, to me, the structure is absurd.
At the end of the career section (2009), we jump unexpectedly back to 1959 to his first marriage, and then discuss two keys episodes in his life. The 1969 murder of his wife, which is mentioned but not explained in the early section of his article, and the 1977 sex case that ruined his life which is alluded to a few times in the career section but not mentioned. I think a narrative form would allow the article as a complete entity to make sense. It currently doesn't make sense unless you feel inclined to jump from section to section each time someone is unexpectedly murdered, or the police start chasing Roman for no apparent reason.
I think it needs more than moving a few sections here and there, and this is what I would suggest:
1. The whole article is all over the place, like nobody has ever read it from start to finish. It needs work. We need to go through from start to finish and ensure that everything is easily understood.
2. Move the "Sharon Tate's murder" section to sit after discussion of Rosemary's Baby and maintain the header. In the paragraphs discussing The Fearless Vampire Killers, mention that Polanski and Tate began a relationship during this time and were subsequently married. Her murder is echoed in The Tragedy of MacBeth and it would not be inappropriate to mention the bloody nature of the film in a more specific context than that offered by Pauline Kael. These changes would connect Polanski and Tate professionally and personally and would give some context to the impact her murder had on Polanski.
3. Look at the key points contained in "Sexual assault case". The main part of it - ie the crime and Polanski's flight from justice takes place between March 1977 and February 1978. If this part of the section - retaining the header - was placed before the sentence that begins "Unwilling to work in the United States after 1978 for fear of jail", it would achieve a couple of things. Firstly, the "unwilling to work" sentence would make sense, but more importantly it would establish that his choices and options regarding where he worked and lived from that point on, were a direct result of these events. It's safe to assume that his career would have taken a different path, so this is a key event, not only in his personal life, but in his career from that time on. The other points relating to the lawsuit of 1988 and Polanski's 1993 agreement are important, but too brief to be given a subsection header. They are secondary points, and I think could be dealt with in one of two ways. a. Subsume them into the article without header, but within the context of the time in which they occurred, or b. Have a section dealing with his 2009 arrest, with a subheader. A paragraph discussing his arrest could refer back to these points. I'm not sure which way would be best, but to maintain visibility, I think option b.
4. The Vanity Fair case - this is not a key event in his life. It could be included in his article within the appropriate timeline. Nothing really hinges on it. It doesn't need a section that implies it is of equal importance/relevance to the other sections.
5. There is too much
WP:OR in the discussion of Polanski's films, and not enough sourcing.
6. If all these changes were made, the section headers would need to be updated.
Satyajit Ray,
Janet Jackson and
Michael Jackson are all
featured articles that use dates within the headers. This may be useful, and "Sharon Tate's murder", "Sexual assault case" and "Arrest in 2009" (or "Arrest in Switzerland") could be suitable subheaders that would ensure these points are still easy to identify, and are not diminished by being subsumed into the article text.
These are just a few thoughts, and any comments are welcome, of course. I truly believe this is not currently an article to be proud of. Rossrs ( talk) 15:17, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC) Other opinions sought to review balance of this bio. See above discussions for key issues. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I've been following this dispute for the last couple of days and believe the article is being altered at such a pace that it can't possibly have been edited by consensus. It seems to me that without dwelling on the details the framework of the article first needs to be addressed. If the sequence of the sections and what sections there should be can be agreed upon then at least that's a start, and each section can then be methodically worked through. Betty Logan ( talk) 20:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Well, that is a broad comment, there has been some editing and there was some reverting to the original position could you clarify and please provide a couple of comparison edits so we can see the difference that you are talking about. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm perplexed. I started a section Talk:Roman Polanski#Narrative vs. non-narrative form and other suggested changes in which I went through the article from start to finish and commented on possible use of sections and structure, and I'm perplexed that there are editors saying the sections need appraisal, while ignoring a discussion that was started specifically to explore that issue. Rossrs ( talk) 08:51, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
This article definitely needs an enema (read: BOLD edit). I think the bifurcation between career and personal life actually serves to confuse the reader, especially given the fact that aspects of his personal life are closely intertwined with his career (future wife starred in film he directs, wife's murder appears to influence his direction, photo shoot he is doing leads to sexual assault, etc.). I would suggest uniting them in a chronological fashion (as in Michael Jackson). And get rid of the huge clutter in career! Is it really necessary to have large paragraph descriptions of each film he made? Or at least put them in a separate filmology section or something. Moogwrench ( talk) 15:20, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
It's unbelievable that anyone would want to put an "early life" section after his career. What's even more perverse is to have his early life, about which there is tons of information, and is a source for much of his future film career inspirations, as only a fraction of material dealing with his personal legal issues.
Having recently seen the article and some of the discussions, it's pretty obvious there are two kinds of philosophies at work: 1. That he was a leading international film director/producer/actor; and 2. he was a sex-offender, rapist, fugitive from various places, criminal defendant, etc. This 2nd group is defending their view based on over-valuing current events "news items" and are basically creating a narration of personal life incidents. This would be equivalent to taking any Hollywood actor and adding overweighted sections dealing with their divorces, court cases, extramarital affairs, drug-taking, alcoholism, etc., of which the gossip sections of any hollywood paper or women's talk show can provide and endless summer of detail.
There is already a separate "main article" about these cases, one of which, at 46KB, which is longer than the bios of most American celebrities or directors, and longer than the "career" section here, is support for this opinion. The bio of John Huston, for example, one of the world's greatest and most prolific directors, is less than half the size of Polanski's sex-assault article.
It's obvious that those from group #2 have a strong personal desire to put as much of these "personal" legal, crime issues into the bio, and that the bio now resembles an issue of "Hollywood Reporter" with an introductory section about the person's career. Note that a category for "American film director" (aka "director of American films") was removed in favor of "rapist," "prisoner," "fugitive," "sex-offender" categories. As a result, the 2nd group seems to have undermined the definition of a bio based on the key source of his notability and diverted it into a sex-focused crime investigation from a single event — celebrity-worship at its worse manifestations.
Because it looks ridiculous to have an "early life" section mixed in with longer, multiple murder, sex, magazine-lawsuit cases, it should be placed before his career. Topics should be in a logical chronological order, rather than haphazard or based on current-event news value order. Hopefully there are a few of the group #1 crowd around that might agree. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 18:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Its been raised to move the Early Life portion of Personal Life to being Ahead of the Career grouping. The change would be pulling intact that entire section, and placing it above. Any Objections? -- Tombaker321 ( talk) 01:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
As there is only one "against," and it's based on a clear statement, "Internet based biographies are quite often written with a chronological perspective, but they are usually written by amateurs . . .", there is really no valid objection that's been put forward. This is the internet, and we are amateurs. I speculate that in the future most would wonder why putting "early life" before "career" was ever an issue. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 01:20, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Two vs two is not unanimity. Another argued against voting at all. One contested one of the nos. What do you mean? I didn't bold, but I say no. Two say yes. Two say no. Two are arguing other points. Proofreader77 ( talk) 01:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Based on this discussion, there is no unanimity, but (and I've commented in more detail as a "support" comment) 100% of the 43 FA-Class (actors/filmmakers) articles, use a format of "early life" (or similar) before career discussion. We are not going to get unanimity, nor should we feel that a decision can't be made without it. This discussion isn't necessary as there is a very clear course, established over time by the numerous editors and reviewers who have worked on or appraised each of the 43 articles. That's enough to justify making the change. We need to see a strong case for the "against" and if that's not quickly provided, we should wrap this up and move on to the areas where the standard course of action is not so clearly demonstrated. Rossrs ( talk) 00:33, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The reason why "Early life" should stay with "Personal life" will be made evident in small increments... with a focus on (rhetorical analysis of) specific changes/by whom/when ... diffs and (viewership) data. Let's start with some viewing data: Polanski's arrest September 27 - 310K views Oct., Nov- Proofreader77 ( talk) 05:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
(a)
Page as it appeared 1 year ago
(b)
Revision as of 14:34, 30 July 09 Sinneed (Restructure of work. Drop sections among films.) [Also see June]
(c) 9/21 page structure
prior to arrest
(d)
Revision as of 17:37, 28 Sept 09 Cenarium (reorganize sections per talk)
(e)
Revision as of 06:38, 14 Oct 09 209.6.238.201 (consolidate bio sections under "biography" heading)
--
Proofreader77 (
talk)
06:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Now, what's that got to do with "Early life" placement? His early life is dramatic, too. He didn't grow up in placid Kansas. Nazi invasion. Separated from mother/father. Mother dies in Auschwitz. Raised by others, under Communism... Proofreader77 ( talk) 06:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
But some (perhaps weighter) ideas of BLP come into play here ... Polanski is notable because he is an accomplished/celebrated film director... Proofreader77 ( talk) 07:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
To Rossrs, I specifically argue Polanski's life/career split is sui generis ... and should be handled in a way that fits its unique circumstances. And that includes keeping Early life as part of Personal life. It is an eventful Personal life - the Early life as well. Those coming to read just that, should find it together. Proofreader77 ( talk) 07:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The probation report that recommended no incarceration for Polanski did not fail to mention what Polanski had survived/endured as a child. Those who believe "no excuses" should be heard (or thought) regarding Polanski may prefer that part of the story far away from the sexual assault case ... which other than the lede, is all most will read. Proofreader77 ( talk) 07:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Given that there is a lot of disagreement over basic layout of the article, in addition to numerous specific points about structure and content, I think it may be useful to have a sandbox in which to show or highlight proposed edits, rather than attempting to describe them. A lot of words have been written, and I think the intention is not always clear. It may be easier to discuss points if we can actually see what is being suggested. All it would require is the diff to show other editors what is being suggested, and because nothing would be lost from the history, anyone could edit it as they see fit, and everyone would have the opportunity to link to a version of the article as he or she believes it should be. The article itself could be left free of any potentially damaging edits or reverts. After consensus is reached, it could then be listed for deletion. I'm willing to set one up in my user space. Rossrs ( talk) 08:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Wikiwatcher1: You responded to what I wrote, but why here? I approached the question of starting a sandbox, and whether or not you agree with me, I did at least attempt to present a case for it. Nobody has to agree with it, but you dismissed it without giving a reason other than your opinion - "That would be a step backward, IMO." That's the only sentence that relates directly to my comment. Most of your reply addressed a comment that I had made about Sharon Tate in another section, and that's where you could've commented. I've discussed my thoughts about Sharon Tate and Polanski's reaction on a few occasions, and it's all buried in archives now, and I can't expect anyone to go through reading it. I'll make the points again seperately, but I honestly don't think it's "tabloid" material, and maybe you could "imagine, with an open mind" a way of assuming more in the way of good faith. Even after I said not to assume to know what I was considering and to wait until you hear it, you say that with an open mind you can only imagine a tabloid approach, and to me that doesn't read like the attitude of someone with an open mind. Rossrs ( talk) 08:18, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
How is Roman Polanski not a french rapist, when it is defined by californian law, that you're one if you have sexuel intercourse with a girl who is 13 years old? Andj2134saeo23412 ( talk) 20:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
He was convicted of a crime though. There are many people who are listed as rapists within Wikipedia that were never convicted in any court in the United States of America. Should they be excluded from any list of rapists within Wikipedia? What one culture considers rape may not be the same thing in another country. In one country what Polanski did might be considered rape in another it might not be considered anything. If ~~ GB fan ~~ is making the argument that Polanski not be listed as a rapist here then by that logic there must be thousands of other pages that need to be changed so that they comply with one specific set of cultural standards. Most USA citizens would probably consider what Polanski did commit as being rape because of the specific circumstances regardless of the legal definition of the conviction he received. In any case, he would still be considered a sex offender in the USA. Imagine a person who stole something, would they be called a theif or would they be called something that is more in line with the specific crime that they commited, like say grand larcenist or petty larcenist. A title sometimes depends on the individuals giving the title rather that the person receiving it. What one person condiders a crime another may see as a heroic triumph. In this case I hope that we can all see that Polanski commited a terrible crime to a child and that he deserves an appropriate title with regards to that act. While he could also be certainly be considered a rapist by many standards, he is currently listed as a sex offender, and this seems to be apt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 19:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
He was convicted of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor, this would place him in the sex offender registry. Since he has not been sentenced and the case not completed I don't think that he is yet in any registry but he is considered a sex offender in the USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 20:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
There are many people in the USA who are sex offenders are are supposed to be in these registries but are not. He still fits the legal defenition of a sex offender and is considered one by the law. He was convicted of his crime but was never sentenced. Just because he is on the run in another country does not mean that is is still not considered a sex offender by the USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 20:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Most every source within Wikipdedia can be denouced the way that you have just denouced one. Here is another source that can be used in place of the one that I did http://www.vachss.com/mission/roman_polanski.html. Here is another one http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Polanski-conviction-details-revealed/article-592814-detail/article.html There are several other sources already in the page that cite his conviction as well.
Here is also the legal definition of a sex offender
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sex+offender —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 20:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
In addition, after closer examination he seems to fit nearly every defenition of sex offender that I could find. It appears that it is an apt term and should be a part of his description in this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 21:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
What consensus? Gwen Gale ( talk) 01:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that under US law you are not convicted until you are sentenced and Polanski never was. Polanski is not a convicted rapist. Part of the problem is that he wants to withdraw his plea and enter a new one, but the Californian DA won't allow this unless he appears in person. Legally he's only at the point where he has been charged with statutory rape. Betty Logan ( talk) 14:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
He needs to be in the rapist category. Urban XII ( talk) 02:39, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The 3 sections dealing with legal cases take up 28% of the body (i.e. excluding filmography, etc.) of the article. There are already links to articles for those, such as the sexual assault case, which is 46Kb long! Since this is supposed to be a bio about a movie director, I think that those matters should be reduced significantly and all of the Perry Masons out there can use the case links to expand any more. I have seen a number of director reference books and all of them have spent only a few sentences summarizing them, with 99% of the bio discussing details of his films. Can we take a straw poll to reduce those sections?
Reduce:
Case for Keeping As Is. Unfortunately the legal cases are very significant to Polanski. Polanski is a current event, readers will be coming to this link for information. Compressing the information is not needed, we have the resources, we have done the checking, and the inclusion of some ASCII text is hardly a resource drain or bandwidth hit. "As Is" is already a compromise, that is working well enough for now. --
Tombaker321 (
talk)
04:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Keep as is:
The section on the rape case needs to be expanded upon. I'm unhappy about recent developments as far as this article is concerned. This person is equally notable as a child rapist and the section is currently too short. Urban XII ( talk) 02:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The statutory rapist category has been removed after lengthy discussion here a few weeks ago by multiple editors, also the French and Polish sex offender cats, soon he will be an innocent man, could someone dig out those discussions about the cats so we can open it back up again? Off2riorob ( talk) 15:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I have also left a message on the BLP noticeboard asking for input. ~~ GB fan ~~ talk 17:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
"soon he will be an innocent man"? While this is obviously bullshit, also note our WP:CHRYSTAL policy. This is a convicted child rapist, end of story. Urban XII ( talk) 02:44, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | → | Archive 15 |
When the two editors who seem to have a stranglehold on this talkpage, and thus the article, have either moved on or at least stop digressing every thread into tangents thus repelling other editors away and insisting that every change they don't like be sent through their preferred processes I'd be happy to offer opinions and clean-up efforts again. Frankly, if the wisdom of covering a subjects early life at the beginning of their article is edit-warred on I don't see much point in remaining. IMHO, it's a disservice to our readers as well as common sense. I offer my best wishes to those who remain. -- Banjeboi 15:37, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
OK, this is kind of a tit-for-tat exercise, so I will answer your points, and then I would like to resume looking just at the article. 1. I've answed this elsewhere, and as I've also said, it's less important when the reasons were given if the main objective is to improve the article. Simply, the comment made by more than one editor is that a dual chronology creates a disjointed effect. Nobody has convinced me otherwise, and I can't see an argument anywhere that says "no, it's not disjointed". 2. I agree that you are not my leader, but you certainly seem to comment on everything and you keep on going until other editors give up and move on. That can't be good for any article. 3. I think you are misreading WP:STYLE. It doesn't address the specific layout or structural issues under discussion. Further it is a 'guideline' only, meaning that even those things that are explicitly stated are not mandatory if editors choose otherwise. Most of what is covered under this style guideline are topics such as naming conventions and maintaining consistency within a given article. Nothing says that the structure can't be changed. What you really should be concerned about is WP:CONSENSUS, something we clearly do not have. 4. I agree with "quality over quantity". I also feel that a fairly inexperienced editor who has only contributed to one article, should at some point ponder "maybe I don't know everything". You're throwing comments at editors who have edited over a long period of time, over a range of article types and who have seen numerous articles and talk page discussions. You seem a little too sure that you have all the answers, but I don't doubt that you have good intentions. 5. I am glad you are aware of WP:OWN. 6. The edits had no consensus. I've not disputed that, so please do not invite me to now. My comment was that if you had allowed the edits to stand just long enough for people to comment, it might have allowed the article to advance. Instead you put it back to where it was, and whatever chance there was of something being built from it, you knocked it on the head. It wasn't necessarily the wrong thing to do, but it wasn't helpful either. Sometimes it's useful to look outside the square and outside the policies, even if you ultimately return. 7. "collaborative editing, guidelines, and consensus" are important to me, and I've been around long enough to know what they all mean, and to have participated in them on numerous occasions. I never said I didn't think them worthwhile to continue with here, so please don't put words in my mouth. And thank you, I'll be sure not to let the door hit me in the arse if I walk away. 8. This is a major point. Just because the article has stood in a certain way for a period of time, doesn't make it right. I've seen 100s of shoddy articles stripped bare and rebuilt over the years I've been here, and we should be thankful that they didn't remain in a particular shape just because they'd always been so. That's a counterproductive way of viewing any article. You are very one-eyed about it though. Yes, I identified several articles that use a similar structure, but you fail to mention I found almost as many that don't. I'll explain why I think the structure is a problem, but I'll comment in a separate area, so that if anyone wishes to comment, they can. 9. So are we all, but you seem to be setting yourself up as the editor who must be satisfied before anything can be done. Rossrs ( talk) 14:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Is there a consensus among editors here, at least for now, to go with the article structure contributed by User:Banjeboi? Gwen Gale ( talk) 22:34, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
This is long, but please be patient.
Currently the article is broken into sections and subsections that are individually easy to read. If someone comes to the article and wants to read only about Sharon Tate's murder, or only about the sex crime case or only about a certain period in Polanski's filmmaking career, the article accommodates that reader and they can read what they want and then leave. I don't think the structure is "terrible" but I think it is less successful when read from the start to the end.
Imagine someone who is not very familiar with Polanski, visiting the article and reading it from the beginning to the end. Forget the lead, just for now. It's basically OK. They start reading the article. A bit about his early life. His film work. He seems to have done nothing between 1968 and 1973. Interesting. 5 years of nothing. Then in the "Return to Europe" section, the first sentence ... "Polanski's first feature following Sharon Tate's murder ..." What ???? Sharon Tate was murdered??? But wait, she starred in one of Polanski's films, so why would he be concerned? It's not like they were married or anything... at least, the article doesn't say they were. Last we heard of Sharon she was in the "Gérard Brach collaborations" section, where she was happily starring in The Fearless Vampire Killers (1967) and now it's 1971 and she's been murdered?? OK, keep reading. Now I'm confused. In the last paragraph he made Chinatown in 1973, and now he's in Europe making The Tragedy of MacBeth in 1971? Did he get there by time-machine? And what of "clearly intended to evoke the Manson killings"? Manson who? Back to the Tardis and he's having a second 1973, and making another film. Not Chinatown which he made a few paragraphs ago, but something called What? So by now I'm not thinking What?, but I am thinking WTF? Finally, it's 1976. So Polanski makes a film called The Tenant (1976).... then "Unwilling to work in the United States after 1978 for fear of jail, Polanski continued to work in Europe." I'm surprised that they'd want to put him in jail for making The Tenant. (I've seen it, and ... yes, maybe they should put him in jail!) OK, keep reading.... "to the memory of his late wife, Sharon Tate." So we find out she's dead before we find out they were married? Later - "Polanski did not attend the Academy Awards ceremony in Hollywood because he would have been arrested once he set foot in the United States." Why are they still chasing him? And then, "Prior to his September 2009 arrest in Switzerland...." OK, they got him, and we still haven't spilt the beans about why. Agatha Christie would have even given a clue, and somehow we forgot to read the lead section, probably because we thought we could just read the article. So keep on reading... well he's been married a few times, and for those of us who were wondering who Sharon Tate was, finally an entire paragraph about her. So that odd sentence at the beginning of "Return to Europe" was right after all, and all that blood in The Tragedy of MacBeth was about Sharon. Makes sense now. Keep reading. "Sexual assualt case". Well no wonder he was so anxious about being arrested! And oh, he sued Vanity Fair a few years ago. Big deal. Now that's a crazy stream to have to wade through, and I've intentionally pointed out the absurdities, because, to me, the structure is absurd.
At the end of the career section (2009), we jump unexpectedly back to 1959 to his first marriage, and then discuss two keys episodes in his life. The 1969 murder of his wife, which is mentioned but not explained in the early section of his article, and the 1977 sex case that ruined his life which is alluded to a few times in the career section but not mentioned. I think a narrative form would allow the article as a complete entity to make sense. It currently doesn't make sense unless you feel inclined to jump from section to section each time someone is unexpectedly murdered, or the police start chasing Roman for no apparent reason.
I think it needs more than moving a few sections here and there, and this is what I would suggest:
1. The whole article is all over the place, like nobody has ever read it from start to finish. It needs work. We need to go through from start to finish and ensure that everything is easily understood.
2. Move the "Sharon Tate's murder" section to sit after discussion of Rosemary's Baby and maintain the header. In the paragraphs discussing The Fearless Vampire Killers, mention that Polanski and Tate began a relationship during this time and were subsequently married. Her murder is echoed in The Tragedy of MacBeth and it would not be inappropriate to mention the bloody nature of the film in a more specific context than that offered by Pauline Kael. These changes would connect Polanski and Tate professionally and personally and would give some context to the impact her murder had on Polanski.
3. Look at the key points contained in "Sexual assault case". The main part of it - ie the crime and Polanski's flight from justice takes place between March 1977 and February 1978. If this part of the section - retaining the header - was placed before the sentence that begins "Unwilling to work in the United States after 1978 for fear of jail", it would achieve a couple of things. Firstly, the "unwilling to work" sentence would make sense, but more importantly it would establish that his choices and options regarding where he worked and lived from that point on, were a direct result of these events. It's safe to assume that his career would have taken a different path, so this is a key event, not only in his personal life, but in his career from that time on. The other points relating to the lawsuit of 1988 and Polanski's 1993 agreement are important, but too brief to be given a subsection header. They are secondary points, and I think could be dealt with in one of two ways. a. Subsume them into the article without header, but within the context of the time in which they occurred, or b. Have a section dealing with his 2009 arrest, with a subheader. A paragraph discussing his arrest could refer back to these points. I'm not sure which way would be best, but to maintain visibility, I think option b.
4. The Vanity Fair case - this is not a key event in his life. It could be included in his article within the appropriate timeline. Nothing really hinges on it. It doesn't need a section that implies it is of equal importance/relevance to the other sections.
5. There is too much
WP:OR in the discussion of Polanski's films, and not enough sourcing.
6. If all these changes were made, the section headers would need to be updated.
Satyajit Ray,
Janet Jackson and
Michael Jackson are all
featured articles that use dates within the headers. This may be useful, and "Sharon Tate's murder", "Sexual assault case" and "Arrest in 2009" (or "Arrest in Switzerland") could be suitable subheaders that would ensure these points are still easy to identify, and are not diminished by being subsumed into the article text.
These are just a few thoughts, and any comments are welcome, of course. I truly believe this is not currently an article to be proud of. Rossrs ( talk) 15:17, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC) Other opinions sought to review balance of this bio. See above discussions for key issues. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 19:50, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I've been following this dispute for the last couple of days and believe the article is being altered at such a pace that it can't possibly have been edited by consensus. It seems to me that without dwelling on the details the framework of the article first needs to be addressed. If the sequence of the sections and what sections there should be can be agreed upon then at least that's a start, and each section can then be methodically worked through. Betty Logan ( talk) 20:15, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Well, that is a broad comment, there has been some editing and there was some reverting to the original position could you clarify and please provide a couple of comparison edits so we can see the difference that you are talking about. Off2riorob ( talk) 22:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I'm perplexed. I started a section Talk:Roman Polanski#Narrative vs. non-narrative form and other suggested changes in which I went through the article from start to finish and commented on possible use of sections and structure, and I'm perplexed that there are editors saying the sections need appraisal, while ignoring a discussion that was started specifically to explore that issue. Rossrs ( talk) 08:51, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
This article definitely needs an enema (read: BOLD edit). I think the bifurcation between career and personal life actually serves to confuse the reader, especially given the fact that aspects of his personal life are closely intertwined with his career (future wife starred in film he directs, wife's murder appears to influence his direction, photo shoot he is doing leads to sexual assault, etc.). I would suggest uniting them in a chronological fashion (as in Michael Jackson). And get rid of the huge clutter in career! Is it really necessary to have large paragraph descriptions of each film he made? Or at least put them in a separate filmology section or something. Moogwrench ( talk) 15:20, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
It's unbelievable that anyone would want to put an "early life" section after his career. What's even more perverse is to have his early life, about which there is tons of information, and is a source for much of his future film career inspirations, as only a fraction of material dealing with his personal legal issues.
Having recently seen the article and some of the discussions, it's pretty obvious there are two kinds of philosophies at work: 1. That he was a leading international film director/producer/actor; and 2. he was a sex-offender, rapist, fugitive from various places, criminal defendant, etc. This 2nd group is defending their view based on over-valuing current events "news items" and are basically creating a narration of personal life incidents. This would be equivalent to taking any Hollywood actor and adding overweighted sections dealing with their divorces, court cases, extramarital affairs, drug-taking, alcoholism, etc., of which the gossip sections of any hollywood paper or women's talk show can provide and endless summer of detail.
There is already a separate "main article" about these cases, one of which, at 46KB, which is longer than the bios of most American celebrities or directors, and longer than the "career" section here, is support for this opinion. The bio of John Huston, for example, one of the world's greatest and most prolific directors, is less than half the size of Polanski's sex-assault article.
It's obvious that those from group #2 have a strong personal desire to put as much of these "personal" legal, crime issues into the bio, and that the bio now resembles an issue of "Hollywood Reporter" with an introductory section about the person's career. Note that a category for "American film director" (aka "director of American films") was removed in favor of "rapist," "prisoner," "fugitive," "sex-offender" categories. As a result, the 2nd group seems to have undermined the definition of a bio based on the key source of his notability and diverted it into a sex-focused crime investigation from a single event — celebrity-worship at its worse manifestations.
Because it looks ridiculous to have an "early life" section mixed in with longer, multiple murder, sex, magazine-lawsuit cases, it should be placed before his career. Topics should be in a logical chronological order, rather than haphazard or based on current-event news value order. Hopefully there are a few of the group #1 crowd around that might agree. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 18:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Its been raised to move the Early Life portion of Personal Life to being Ahead of the Career grouping. The change would be pulling intact that entire section, and placing it above. Any Objections? -- Tombaker321 ( talk) 01:54, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
As there is only one "against," and it's based on a clear statement, "Internet based biographies are quite often written with a chronological perspective, but they are usually written by amateurs . . .", there is really no valid objection that's been put forward. This is the internet, and we are amateurs. I speculate that in the future most would wonder why putting "early life" before "career" was ever an issue. -- Wikiwatcher1 ( talk) 01:20, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Two vs two is not unanimity. Another argued against voting at all. One contested one of the nos. What do you mean? I didn't bold, but I say no. Two say yes. Two say no. Two are arguing other points. Proofreader77 ( talk) 01:35, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
Based on this discussion, there is no unanimity, but (and I've commented in more detail as a "support" comment) 100% of the 43 FA-Class (actors/filmmakers) articles, use a format of "early life" (or similar) before career discussion. We are not going to get unanimity, nor should we feel that a decision can't be made without it. This discussion isn't necessary as there is a very clear course, established over time by the numerous editors and reviewers who have worked on or appraised each of the 43 articles. That's enough to justify making the change. We need to see a strong case for the "against" and if that's not quickly provided, we should wrap this up and move on to the areas where the standard course of action is not so clearly demonstrated. Rossrs ( talk) 00:33, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The reason why "Early life" should stay with "Personal life" will be made evident in small increments... with a focus on (rhetorical analysis of) specific changes/by whom/when ... diffs and (viewership) data. Let's start with some viewing data: Polanski's arrest September 27 - 310K views Oct., Nov- Proofreader77 ( talk) 05:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
(a)
Page as it appeared 1 year ago
(b)
Revision as of 14:34, 30 July 09 Sinneed (Restructure of work. Drop sections among films.) [Also see June]
(c) 9/21 page structure
prior to arrest
(d)
Revision as of 17:37, 28 Sept 09 Cenarium (reorganize sections per talk)
(e)
Revision as of 06:38, 14 Oct 09 209.6.238.201 (consolidate bio sections under "biography" heading)
--
Proofreader77 (
talk)
06:08, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Now, what's that got to do with "Early life" placement? His early life is dramatic, too. He didn't grow up in placid Kansas. Nazi invasion. Separated from mother/father. Mother dies in Auschwitz. Raised by others, under Communism... Proofreader77 ( talk) 06:59, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
But some (perhaps weighter) ideas of BLP come into play here ... Polanski is notable because he is an accomplished/celebrated film director... Proofreader77 ( talk) 07:22, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
To Rossrs, I specifically argue Polanski's life/career split is sui generis ... and should be handled in a way that fits its unique circumstances. And that includes keeping Early life as part of Personal life. It is an eventful Personal life - the Early life as well. Those coming to read just that, should find it together. Proofreader77 ( talk) 07:35, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
The probation report that recommended no incarceration for Polanski did not fail to mention what Polanski had survived/endured as a child. Those who believe "no excuses" should be heard (or thought) regarding Polanski may prefer that part of the story far away from the sexual assault case ... which other than the lede, is all most will read. Proofreader77 ( talk) 07:53, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Given that there is a lot of disagreement over basic layout of the article, in addition to numerous specific points about structure and content, I think it may be useful to have a sandbox in which to show or highlight proposed edits, rather than attempting to describe them. A lot of words have been written, and I think the intention is not always clear. It may be easier to discuss points if we can actually see what is being suggested. All it would require is the diff to show other editors what is being suggested, and because nothing would be lost from the history, anyone could edit it as they see fit, and everyone would have the opportunity to link to a version of the article as he or she believes it should be. The article itself could be left free of any potentially damaging edits or reverts. After consensus is reached, it could then be listed for deletion. I'm willing to set one up in my user space. Rossrs ( talk) 08:32, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) Wikiwatcher1: You responded to what I wrote, but why here? I approached the question of starting a sandbox, and whether or not you agree with me, I did at least attempt to present a case for it. Nobody has to agree with it, but you dismissed it without giving a reason other than your opinion - "That would be a step backward, IMO." That's the only sentence that relates directly to my comment. Most of your reply addressed a comment that I had made about Sharon Tate in another section, and that's where you could've commented. I've discussed my thoughts about Sharon Tate and Polanski's reaction on a few occasions, and it's all buried in archives now, and I can't expect anyone to go through reading it. I'll make the points again seperately, but I honestly don't think it's "tabloid" material, and maybe you could "imagine, with an open mind" a way of assuming more in the way of good faith. Even after I said not to assume to know what I was considering and to wait until you hear it, you say that with an open mind you can only imagine a tabloid approach, and to me that doesn't read like the attitude of someone with an open mind. Rossrs ( talk) 08:18, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
How is Roman Polanski not a french rapist, when it is defined by californian law, that you're one if you have sexuel intercourse with a girl who is 13 years old? Andj2134saeo23412 ( talk) 20:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
He was convicted of a crime though. There are many people who are listed as rapists within Wikipedia that were never convicted in any court in the United States of America. Should they be excluded from any list of rapists within Wikipedia? What one culture considers rape may not be the same thing in another country. In one country what Polanski did might be considered rape in another it might not be considered anything. If ~~ GB fan ~~ is making the argument that Polanski not be listed as a rapist here then by that logic there must be thousands of other pages that need to be changed so that they comply with one specific set of cultural standards. Most USA citizens would probably consider what Polanski did commit as being rape because of the specific circumstances regardless of the legal definition of the conviction he received. In any case, he would still be considered a sex offender in the USA. Imagine a person who stole something, would they be called a theif or would they be called something that is more in line with the specific crime that they commited, like say grand larcenist or petty larcenist. A title sometimes depends on the individuals giving the title rather that the person receiving it. What one person condiders a crime another may see as a heroic triumph. In this case I hope that we can all see that Polanski commited a terrible crime to a child and that he deserves an appropriate title with regards to that act. While he could also be certainly be considered a rapist by many standards, he is currently listed as a sex offender, and this seems to be apt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 19:59, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
He was convicted of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor, this would place him in the sex offender registry. Since he has not been sentenced and the case not completed I don't think that he is yet in any registry but he is considered a sex offender in the USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 20:17, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
There are many people in the USA who are sex offenders are are supposed to be in these registries but are not. He still fits the legal defenition of a sex offender and is considered one by the law. He was convicted of his crime but was never sentenced. Just because he is on the run in another country does not mean that is is still not considered a sex offender by the USA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 20:28, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
Most every source within Wikipdedia can be denouced the way that you have just denouced one. Here is another source that can be used in place of the one that I did http://www.vachss.com/mission/roman_polanski.html. Here is another one http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Polanski-conviction-details-revealed/article-592814-detail/article.html There are several other sources already in the page that cite his conviction as well.
Here is also the legal definition of a sex offender
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sex+offender —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 20:54, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
In addition, after closer examination he seems to fit nearly every defenition of sex offender that I could find. It appears that it is an apt term and should be a part of his description in this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.252.164.47 ( talk) 21:00, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
What consensus? Gwen Gale ( talk) 01:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to point out that under US law you are not convicted until you are sentenced and Polanski never was. Polanski is not a convicted rapist. Part of the problem is that he wants to withdraw his plea and enter a new one, but the Californian DA won't allow this unless he appears in person. Legally he's only at the point where he has been charged with statutory rape. Betty Logan ( talk) 14:12, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
He needs to be in the rapist category. Urban XII ( talk) 02:39, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The 3 sections dealing with legal cases take up 28% of the body (i.e. excluding filmography, etc.) of the article. There are already links to articles for those, such as the sexual assault case, which is 46Kb long! Since this is supposed to be a bio about a movie director, I think that those matters should be reduced significantly and all of the Perry Masons out there can use the case links to expand any more. I have seen a number of director reference books and all of them have spent only a few sentences summarizing them, with 99% of the bio discussing details of his films. Can we take a straw poll to reduce those sections?
Reduce:
Case for Keeping As Is. Unfortunately the legal cases are very significant to Polanski. Polanski is a current event, readers will be coming to this link for information. Compressing the information is not needed, we have the resources, we have done the checking, and the inclusion of some ASCII text is hardly a resource drain or bandwidth hit. "As Is" is already a compromise, that is working well enough for now. --
Tombaker321 (
talk)
04:11, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
Keep as is:
The section on the rape case needs to be expanded upon. I'm unhappy about recent developments as far as this article is concerned. This person is equally notable as a child rapist and the section is currently too short. Urban XII ( talk) 02:41, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
The statutory rapist category has been removed after lengthy discussion here a few weeks ago by multiple editors, also the French and Polish sex offender cats, soon he will be an innocent man, could someone dig out those discussions about the cats so we can open it back up again? Off2riorob ( talk) 15:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
I have also left a message on the BLP noticeboard asking for input. ~~ GB fan ~~ talk 17:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
"soon he will be an innocent man"? While this is obviously bullshit, also note our WP:CHRYSTAL policy. This is a convicted child rapist, end of story. Urban XII ( talk) 02:44, 26 November 2009 (UTC)