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i think that the greek influence on the romans should be stated, i.e., most of their army tactics and what the romans used in every day life was invented by a greek or anotherWillgfass2 21:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)willgfass
Right sure, we all know how well the Romans used the Greek phalanx and the Companion cavalary to expand the republic, NOT. Flamarande 00:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Very true the Romans did take many things from the Greeks, (hence Greco-Roman civilization), but that was all based on culture, the Romans focused on mobile heavy infantry units, their infantry was their main bulk they never really expanded on their calvery, it has historically been considered their weak point in their army, but it was nontheless trained. My point is is that Roman culture was basically the same as Greek culture, such as the ideas of Democracy and Law. However, the Romans never used the Greek's miltary formations or tactics that I am well aware of, i believe thier military derived from the other latin cultures such as the Etruscans. Cmatos1991 17:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Flamarande most scholars wouldn't agree with you. Not only democracy but also the very concept of polis was adapted from the Greeks. Constitution and military were probably the only domains where Rome made its own innovations, although their origins were there too the Athenian constitution and the Greek phalanx. Miskin 17:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The polis was a concept that all Italic peoples adapted from the Italian Greeks. As I said before the Roman Republic did come up with remarkable innovations in the fields of military and state formation. But do not forget the Greek influence in all fields of culture from science to letters. But for someone who believes that Byzantines were just 'Romans' and not Greeks who got potically assimilated to the Roman ecumenical state, this makes quite a contradiction. If we assume that Byzantines were just Romans, then it means that the Roman Empire got finally assimilated into Greek culture and retained nothing from its past, except its very name (and that in Greek). So what you claim about "Roman culture" becomes moot by your own logic. Miskin 18:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I've never used the term "Greek nation", I said "Greek monarchy" which is a mainstream connotation for post-Manzikert Byzantium. Greek-speakers were never a nation in the modern sense before 1821. I think the answer to who is the most important successor of Rome is an abjective one. It depends on someone's criteria on defining "Roman" and the "Romans". For example Byzantium was the only real political successor of the Roman Empire, but as Charlesmagne correcly emphasised the Greeks were neither speakers of the "Roman language" nor possessors of the Roman land, and the city of Rome itself chose the German Emperor as the legimate inheritor of the Empire. Both Byzantium and the Holy Roman Empire started off as Roman Imperial states which imported Latin as their official languages, but soon thereafter they both became Greek and German states respectively. This is only natural if you consider the evolution of civilisation over the centuries. However I brought this up because I think that the Eastern Roman Empire (meaning Byzantium even before the fall of the Western Empire and while it had Latin as an official language) proves the important position of Greek culture in the Roman Empire. In the West all subjected peoples were assimilated and Latinized, but in the East even when Latin was imported for official purposes, it never gained popularity and didn't manage to survive. Miskin 22:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way many Greeks are of the opinion that there is one and only Roman Empire which ends in 1453, and would never accept to call it 'Greek monarchy' at any point, clearly a view which doesn't meet consensus. I'm of the realistic view that a culture is not defined only by means of political continuity, and that when it comes to editing articles wikipedia should always stick to mainstream terminology and should not try to decide between right and wrong. Miskin 22:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Rome dominated Western Eurasia, comprising the majority of its population. This isn't correct. Rome was a city. It was the empire which comprised the majority of the population in Western Eurasia. Rintrah 18:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Another comment: some of this article is written like a high school essay. Why is this in the article: Who was the first emperor? is one of the never ending questions about the Roman Empire.? I am too tired to edit this myself. Perhaps someone else can attend to improving the quality of writing.
I was going to read the whole article, but the First Emperor section thoroughly discouraged me. Rintrah 19:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
"Rome" is very commonly used as shorthand for "the Roman Empire" in multiple sources ranging from academic works to TV, movies and fiction - I don't think we need to change that. The section on the first emperor is an important debate, but still (despite revision) not quite accurate - the title of "Imperator" really referred to generalship and has only assumed the "imperialist" connotation via centuries of subsequent history. Roman emperors themselves were in modern terms essentially military dictators and the "imperial" system a sort of aristocratic militarised slave-owning universal culture with some local and regional liberties and religious tolerance, that evolved slowly in stages from "alleged democratic republic" to "alleged universal empire". So the whole debate is slightly flawed and anachronistic and user Rintrah is right to raise it - however, it does seem worth discussing it as to the modern mind the obvious query is "when did the empire start?" MarkThomas 10:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Alot of this article seems to have been directly copied from various subject textbooks. I myself have wikified the sentence "Our major primary sources include the:" to "Primary sources for this include:" or something similar. A fine tooth comb is needed to clean this article, many parts of it are contradictory to Wiki standards.
Bigbrisco
19:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Apologies if this has already been discussed, did a quick check of the archives. I'm wondering if the word " autocratic" in the opener is quite right - most modern experts tend to speak of Rome as an aristocratic society - not that autocracy is wholly wrong, but it tends to imply that all power is in one person, but in many periods of the empire and at different times, that was not completely the case; senators had real power, as did governers, other members of the imperial family, particular generals and so on. It is certainly true under some emperors but I think classical scholars viewed that sort of absolutism as defective and more enlightened emperors ruled slightly more collaboratively. Opinions please? I think it should say either aristocratic or aristocratic and (sometimes) autocratic. MarkThomas 09:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for all this Varana, I do very much agree with your and others' views above about power deriving from the Emperor. I guess I feel suitably corrected. :-) Maybe I was thinking though that Senators had slightly more power sometimes than is implied in your comments above - true that dictatorial emperors treated them as comical or suppressed them, but some emperors seem to have treated them actively as a parliament. Also the tetrarchy and vicarius periods post-Diocletian I think distributed power more, although quite right, it derived from the emperor(s).
I see from your own page that you do maps sometimes, what do you think of the map issue below I raised, are you able to edit that map? I tried contacting the author but with no response. It is certainly wrong to show Dacia as under Roman rule in AD 14. MarkThomas 16:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Varana. I've just been browsing the Roman_Empire/reorganization mentioned above - this I see has some stage maps in green, but not the multi-coloured integrated map we are discussing - does that mean in effect we need no longer bother what's on this page but should instead focus on the reorg page? Thanks for any guidance. MarkThomas 21:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The map (which is nice and generally very good) seems to show Dacia (modern-day Romania and part of Bulgaria) as being Roman in 14AD, which is wrong - Trajan conquered Dacia in 101-6 - contrast with the map below, also on Wikipedia, showing the supposed extent of the empire in 50AD. How do we go about getting the map re-drawn? I really like it, the colour scheme and simplicity is really good. Mark Thomas 10:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are right RafaelG, and I did not mean to imply the above map should be our only source; merely that it is correct not to show Dacia as part of the empire at that time. Here is the map I am talking about, just to be completely clear. I think this is a great map. Just that Dacia is wrongly colour-coded. MarkThomas 12:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a beautiful new map, thanks for all your efforts with it Varana! Couple of things I noticed - is it just my browser/PC, or is the colour in your key box for 218BC not the same as the one on the map? One other thing - I've often seen empire maps that show parts of the region north of the Black Sea (including part of the Crimea) as Roman - did you leave these off or is it that they were occupied later when other parts of the empire were smaller? MarkThomas 20:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that the conquests of Trajan in Orient should be explained as temporary conquest then lost, as the conquest of Germania by Augustus (wich isn't showed in the map) and present Scotland invaded succesfully by Agrícola who then retreat quickly.
-Fco
How is that even possible if the Roman Republic didn't dissolve until four years later, in 27 BC? -- MosheA 01:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Personally I think it's wrong in the article - a lot of sources show the republic ending effectively at the same time as Augustus assumed supreme power in 31, or else when Ceasar had himself declared Dictator and Imperator in 49BC. MarkThomas 09:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Very entertaining and well-argued piece, thanks Flamarande. :-) I was really just querying the use of the 27BC date as one of the choices, but having checked more extensively and looked in one or two of my own books, I now accept that it is sometimes used. The entry appears to cover the ground pretty well, as does your piece above! MarkThomas 19:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
"...it maintained Roman legal and cultural traditions within a distinctly Greek Orthodox form for another thousand years until it finally succumbed to Latins in 1204, and then the Ottoman Empire on 29 May 1453." This sentence is probably a bit confusing to those unfamilar with Byzantine history -- how can an empire be eradicated twice? Perhaps there should be a brief mention of the greek reconquest, or else leave out the referance to the fourth crusade (as it wasn't the true endpoint). -- 141.157.74.8 17:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Your obviously losing grips with fact. The initial church of Jesus Christ and God was started by what is distinctly today the Greek Orthodox CHurch. The Papacy and the Germanics following the Papal Heresy called Catholism were responsible for teh damage and destruction of the Eastern Empire through the blatant mis use of their powers and through the blasphemous and hell bound condemnation of their satanic actions that called men to aid in wars for their own political agendas.
Ephestion 14:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
User User:Armodios is making a series of fairly extreme and unsupported edits to the lead in connection with the above, having already reverted twice I would be grateful if other editors could also review. Thanks. MarkThomas 19:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Armodios, you've already made it very clear you have strong views on this, but the article uses terms that are widely used elsewhere and any casual reader of Wikipedia deserves a chance to read good quality information on this important subject using words and phrases that are familiar and also explored further and deeper on other pages. "Byzantine" is a very commonly used terminology not just here in Wikipedia but everywhere in both academic and popular literature, on TV, internet sites, etc. It's a very common phenomenon that the modern names for historical movements, nations, cultures, peoples and events are different in various ways to those that were originally used. This too can be explained in Wikipedia but it does not mean that we must use them generally in articles now, since it would be confusing. This is why I and other editors reverted (and will continue to revert if they don't make sense given the above) your recent changes. MarkThomas 11:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Nicknack009, very accurately put. By the way, the Lead of Byzantine Empire also goes to some lengths to explain to the layman the various naming conventions and how the peoples of that empire thought of themselves as well. MarkThomas 12:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Armodius, your discussion belongs in the page Talk:Founding of Rome, as it is about the origin myths of Rome, of which there are many, the "Trojan origin" being just one (and as with many such myths, no actual evidence whatever to back it up). Thanks. MarkThomas 13:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a section about the successor states and there are couple of mistakes about the Turkish claim for the throne of the Roman Empire. The Turkish invasion of Italy stopped in 1481 (with the death of Mehmet II) not in 1480. Also it was more like a retreat than a defeat for Ottomans. Ottoman historians argue that Mehmet decided to use Otranto as the base of his invasion but when he died (some argues that he was poisoned) his plans were not carried on mostly because of the conflict between his sons, Cem Bey and Bayezid (later Bayezid II). Otranto was lost to western powers during this power struggle. With respect, Deliogul 21:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Look, you are not supossed to wait for the anyone's approval (the above "you" - there is no such person) to improve a article. Read first the Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages aka Be Bold (in particular the but don't be reckless section) guildline and then improve the article. If your improvements meet with opposition someone will either revert them and/or put the issue here for proper factfinding/checkup. Don't forget to include your sources (references) at the correct location. Flamarande 16:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The project Roman Empire/reorganization lost its momentum half a year ago. Rewriting the whole Roman Empire article is probably to big a task for the small ancient history community on Wikipedia. I think we might as well remove the talk-box at the top of this page, and declare the project defunct. I guess improving the present article step-by-step is a more realistic endeavor. Any thoughts?-- Hippalus
I've reorganised the levels of the headings of the historical sections relating to the period between Constantine and Theodosius, and added a couple of sentences on the Western Empire between 395 and 474. These are there just to provide some continuity until something better can be added - I hope to do so in a few days but (of course) if anyone else feels like doing so meanwhile, please step in. PWilkinson 20:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
this article line 9 at 5.40PM 4 Feb 2007: "From the time of Augustus to the Fall of the Western Empire, Rome dominated Western Eurasia, comprising the majority of its population."
Not really. Firstly domination is almost better known as occupation. Rome was South of the Baltic, and didn't often include much West of the Rhine in Europe. For majority of Population to be a majority it has to actually be there, and here it is simply not there. It is stretching things a bit to say Rome dominated Europe-you might as well say that the USA dominated the Western Hemisphere, good concept, but wishfull thinking. Sure, Rome wanted to dominate Europe, but who was Herman the German?? He's the guy who says to Rome that it is only wishful thinking, and yes, there is a place for saying that Rome wanted to do this, but history won't hold the rest of this, and Europe is kind of clearly the bulk of the West end of Eurasia as it seems to have been known since the 19th Century in everyplace that I have seen it until just yesterday. Why West Eurasia ? The term is not helping here. Are you trying to form a link to support the current expansions of NATO beyond the Atlantic or of the EU beyond Europe ? There may be better ways to do that, and the placement of this term is confusing.
Rome dominated the Mediteranean and controlled all of the islands and coastal areas and clearly dominated Southwestern Europe. Find a way to say that, because it is the truth. John5Russell3Finley 23:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
What type of jobs did women and men hold in ancient Rome?
Hi everyone. Just wanted to say this is very nice page in my opinion. I specialize in African history and wanted to make a similar table for the Mali Empire article. I'm having trouble getting the table to look right. Does anyone have the template for this info box, cuz its not showing up in the edits. Thnx in advance and keep up the good work.
Scott Free 23:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Nicomedia ( Izmit in modern Turkey, located east of Istanbul, on the Marmara Sea) was the eastern capital of the Roman Empire between 286-324 (until Licinius was defeated by Constantine the Great in 324) during the Tetrarchy system of Diocletian. Constantine also resided in Nicomedia between 324 and 330, until he established Constantinople as the new capital.
Diocletian chose Nicomedia for himself as the capital city of the senior Augustus.
Therefore, Nicomedia should also be added on the capital cities graph at the top of the page. KeremTuncay 14:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
At least one of the two maps should show that the Roman Empire held territory up to the
Oder River, before the
barbarians drove them out, and especially that what is now a large part of the Netherlands (west of the
Rhine River) was part of the Roman Empire, even if only for a few decades.
Chiss Boy
15:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with that. we should have a map like that ¥→ WikiDragon295 20:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to be written from pro-Asian POV. Chiefly the reference to the Roman Empire being a co-superpower with Han China. The Roman Empire encompassed multiple cultures and civilizations, from Egypt to Gaul, from the Carthaginians to Mesopotamians. Han China ruled over a comparable area and population, but ruled over a single ethnicity (cultural ethnicity) and yet was not as unified as the Roman Empire (more a collection of autonomous states rather than Rome's unified government). Also, the reference to the Roman Empire's rule in western Eurasia. The Roman Empire held territory from southern to northern (though not far-northern) Europe, parts of southwestern and Central Asia, and A LOT OF NORTHERN AND EASTERN AFRICA.
Chiss Boy
14:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
According to the article Bay of Kiel, it says that the Romans kept a military presense in Denmark!? This is not cited at all. If it is true, then someone should put a map of the empire with Denmark in its borders.
Kiel and Pliny There is a tantalizing piece of possible evidence of the use of the name in antiquity. Pliny (Book IV.97) is describing the Kattegat and the large number of islands in it, the most famous being Scandinavia. Then,
”quidam haec … tradunt sinum Cylipenum vocari, et in ostio insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum conterminum Cimbris.” ”Some report that there is a bay called Cylipenus and an island, Latris, at its mouth, followed by another bay, Lagnus, coterminous with the Cimbri.” Locations of the bay with its island have been hypothesized as far east as Riga, but Pliny clearly says that it was coterminous with the Cimbri, and the latter were certainly located in Jutland. The Cyli- in Cylipenus is most likely to be Kiel, although whether the bay, the fjord, or both are meant is uncertain. Latris may be a translation into Latin of Langeland, based on the use of the adjective, latus, “wide”, for long. The Romans would have seen it as a wide island. Lagnus must be the Bay of Mecklenburg, or of Lübeck, or both.
Admiral Pliny tells us that the Romans kept a military presence in Denmark, which is contrary to what we are accustomed to thinking about their relationship to the ancient Germanics. He states that the Roman military had intelligence of 23 islands, including Bornholm. Beyond that he isn’t sure. The presence need not have been imposed by the Romans. It may have been simply naval stations permitted by treaty with the Cimbri. Perhaps the first shipyards of Kiel were Roman, but this is only speculation. Mrld 18:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The article lists Latin as the language of the empire and gives a nod to Greek as a later language used in the Eastern Empire. While in terms of official languages this is accurate (the pop-up box does not say "official") in terms of overall usage this is arguably a distortion. Certainly from the outset of the imperial period Greek was the majority language in the Eastern half of the empire. In fact, since the major population centers were in the East I'm fairly certain it was the majority language in the whole empire (I have not seen statistics to confirm this, though). Moreover, Greek was widely used even in Rome (e.g. the surviving quotations from Caesar's assasination in Rome are all Greek, not Latin). Again, I don't have stats as to how prevalent this was in Rome although I have read that it was so prevalent that for some time many in the upper classes had even proposed changing the official language to Greek (i.e. the upper classes in the city itself).
Although this is a detail Western historians have traditionally not wanted to acknowledge it seems worth clarifying in this article. Comments? -- Mcorazao 18:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me who created the bronze of Marcus Aurelius in this article? Thank you.
I changed the statement in the intro
to
Anticipating somebody might want a clearer explanation than my edit comment ...
A few problems with the original statement.
I don't mean to overanalyze but I think it is particularly important that statements in the intro not be misleading. If anybody doesn't like my phrasing please feel free to choose something different.
-- Mcorazao 14:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Dont you think there should be mention of the holy roman empire as a successor to the Roman Empire? Even if it wasn't the Papacy and the Pope recognized it as Rome's successor. The papacy would be one to make this claim as the Roman Catholic Church is the only truly Roman trace of the western empire left.
Alphablast, I reverted the following edit.
Three reasons:
If you or anybody disagree you can feel free to put it back.
-- Mcorazao 04:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Anybody think it's a good idea to lock down this article a bit? This article has been rated very highly and has become fairly mature. Yet I am seeing lots of random edits occurring often by anonymous editors which are compromising the quality of the article.
-- Mcorazao 03:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
There are too many run-on sentences. This example is typical:
Zeno probably expected that the Italians under the leadership of the senate would start a revolt and reorganize the Western Roman Empire,[citation needed] however there are no records of any significant resistance or insurgency against Odoacer.
Please fix these. RedRabbit1983 04:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
User:Pmanderson has finally admitted that there is an Old meaning of the term Republic at the Talk:List of republics page. But instead of including this old term, he states that the Old Meaning of Republic is "monarchy" and so he has added this to List_of_republics#Other_meanings_of_Republic
==Other meanings of Republic==
These were in some respects broader than the present meaning of republic, and would include not only the republics of antiquity, as above, but, for example, the following monarchies:
Since the Oxford English Dictionary last cites this meaning from 1684, it is difficult to tell to which present states it would have been applied.
Can someone explain to me why the Roman Republic has the Newer definition and the Roman Empire has the Older meaning of republic? Can someone who is smarter than me and has a college degree explain this to me? I am having difficulty with this. Is the Roman Empire really a republic?
Is NOT Rome a Classical republic. And if Modern republics diminish religion why was the constitution of Rome divided between Res divina (religious law) and Res publica (secular law)? Is there not a glaring discrepancy here? WHEELER 00:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Don't you think the introductory passage is too long? It should end after the first paragraph.-- Dominik92 16:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I am going to add a Holy Roman Empire section to this article under The Fall of the Western Roman Empire section, because the Holy Roman Empire was a conscience attempt to revive the western empire in Leo III, and Charlemange's eyes, and among other emperor's such as Otto I, and Fredrick I to name a few. It should also be noted (not on this article of course) that in the west the Byzantines were know as the Greek Empire, and the Holy Roman Empire was looked at as an heir.
With these reasons alone the Holy Roman Empire should be noted on this article. If anyone has any problems or concerns to me added the medieval Western Roman Empire to this one please let me know. -- Lucius Sempronius Turpio 07:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
With all that said, still Rome as a political entity, regardless of its ties to the ancient empire, wasnt formally taken off of maps untill 1806. We can debate endlessly here about the Holy Roman Empire, and the Byzantine Empire, and who spoke what, and who had true Translatio Imperii. I do however believe that 1806 should be the offical end date of the empire, because if nothing, that was the end of the Roman Empire, on paper(regardless of the Holy Roman Empire being a true heir to the Western Roman Empire), even though I believe it was.-- Lucius Sempronius Turpio 05:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I find it somewhat peculiar that in this article the term "Roman Empire" is tied so closely to the form of government, i.e. the monarchy. Does this correspond with normal practice in scholarship? In the territorial sense, Rome was an empire long before it ceased to be a republic, and I think that for most people the form of government is not the first thing that comes to mind when confronted with the term "Roman Empire"; rather, it would be the great power that established itself around the Mediterranean after the Punic Wars. "Imperial Rome" (as opposed to the in parallel with the article "Roman Republic") would be more transparent. I find it all the more confusing that the Latin term Imperium Romanum, which has nothing to do with emperorship, is mentioned in the lead, suggesting that it illustrates the term "Roman Empire" as used in the article, which it doesn't.
Iblardi
16:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Then again, something should be done about the infoboxes saying Imperium Romanum for this article and Res publica Romana for the other, as these terms have nothing to do with forms of government and their use in this context is therefore misleading. Imperium means "area of control" and res publica "the common cause" or "the state". They do not simply overlap with the English "Empire" and "Republic". Iblardi 07:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe - and this in only my take on it based on the historians I've read - that the general divisions between Republic and Empire are the forms of government. I don't think anyone can reasonably fail to acknowledge that Rome was an "international empire" since the end of the Samnite Wars, when the Republican forms of government are going strong. However, I think that if you poll 10 professional historians/writers you'll get a general agreement that the "Republican Period" and the "Imperial Period" are separate, and that the internal form of government is the defining factor. Ideally then we should probably not be talking about "Republican" v.s. "Imperial" periods of Roman History, but Monarchy, Republic, Principate, and Dominate (with a footnote for the short-lived Tetrarchy), but these distinct governmental forms break down into three broad categories: Hereditary Monarchy (the Roman Kingdom period), Republican Form (Roman Republic), and Autocracy (Principate and Dominate - sometimes hereditary as in the Julio-Claudian and Flavian dynasties, sometimes not as in the Antonines). This has been - I believe - the rationale for seperating the periods of Roman history to date: not the international relationship of Rome with her neighbors, but the internal structure of Roman politics.
With that said, why not go back to the histories and check when the mottoes are used? Do they appear in inscriptions? When? How? What for? I'm not even sure that it can be unambiguously agreed upon that Rome had a motto. It is possible however; one could look at official inscriptions and monuments and find one, or the other, or both being used in official documents. If one always appears in document pre- Augustus and the other afterawards, that seems to be pretty clear. If both appear mixed, throughout both periods then the use of both is justified. If neither appears as officially part of all documents and edicts, then maybe neither is appropriate and Roman civilization did not have a motto per se. - Vedexent ( talk) - 00:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Even though Rome exerted political control over her neighbors very early in its history until its eventual demise, and that this might be considered an Empire in the same manner of the later British Empire, historians usually distinguish between the republican and imperial periods of Rome based on its form of government and not its international political and military power.
Hrm. I've just come here after seeing rather peculiar edit. While I can see the confilct about the native name of Roman Empire I don't see any rationale behind calling the "Roman Republic" "Imperium Romanum". Perhaps I've missed something. Would it not be simpler to use those and and only those names whose use is well attested - i.e. res publica in both cases, imperium in neither? -- Nema Fakei 10:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The following image:
Is wrong because Iraq was invaded numerous times and Ctesiphon itself was sacked by the Roman army four times, so how could they have only invaded it once?
Once by Trajan
Once by Avidius Cassius
Once by Septimius Severus in which he deported and enslaved many
Once by Galerius, although an earlier attempt was a failure, another in 296 AD worked
Julian invaded Mesopotamia and wa skilled outside of Ctesiphon
Heraclius won a great victory at Nineveh and then marched to Ctesiphon to recieve Perisan armistice terms
Thats a total of 6 invasions, not one. Therefore I will make this edit.
Regards, Tourskin 03:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
So shal I change the text to a few times instead of once. The Honorable Kermanshahi 08:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC) \
It seems that there was never any consensus behind adding the Holy Roman Empire section, especially describing it as a genuine continuation of the actual Roman Empire. Why is this section still there (or at least why has it not been rewritten)?
I propose removing this as it is inconsistent with modern historiography (with all due respect to the Roman Catholic Church). The discussion in the final section regarding states that claimed to be successors is sufficient.
-- Mcorazao 16:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I am going to mark the life span of the Roman Empire from the Battle of Actium in 31 BC, to the abdication of Francis II in 1806.
In 1806 the Roman Empire was on maps, making it the offical date Rome was taken off maps, and ceased to be a political entity. This is all regardless if you dont consider the Holy Roman Empire to be the true heir of the Western Empire!
Do people think the Barbarians just killed all the Romans after 476? The answer is no of course, most of the Germans that took power were already Romanized. The first two German rulers after the fall, Odoacer, and Theodoric the Great even answered to the Byzantine emperor. Roman tradition, and culture didnt just go extinct, as we know because our own society, and cultures in the western world are heavily influenced by Rome.
The people still considered themselves Romans after the fall of Rome, and told there children, and grand-children they were Romans too, this went on for generations, but also while mixing with the Germans too (if you want, check out Romano-Germanic). The Roman populace was never wiped out, and it is debateable that Roman civilian loses were minimal. 300 plus years later there was still a Roman essence among the people.
When things had settled down after all the Choas, and Charlemange was able to unify most of Western Europe again, it was right to revive the empire in the west, he was crowned King of the Romans, and took the title Imperator Augustus. The Byzantine Empress Irene must have reconized Charlemange's Empire as the true Western heir, or she would never have agreed to marry her son to his daughter.
There are many recorded Byzantine and Holy Roman Royal marriages, which further prove that the Byzantines reconized the Roman state in the west. One good example is when in 972, when the Byzantine emperor John I Tzimisces publicly recognized Otto's imperial title and agreed to a marriage between Otto's son and heir Otto II and his niece Theophano.
Saying that the Holy Roman Empire didnt have any real claim to be the the Western Roman Empire is ludacris. But thats not even the debate here! the debate is the offical end of the empire, and that date is 1806 when the last Roman Emperor, Francis II, was abdicated by Napoleon, and Rome, as an Empire was taken off of maps after being on them for millennia.
The history of Rome spans thousands of years of the existence of a city that grew from a small Italian village in the 9th century BC into the center of a vast civilization that dominated the Mediterranean region for centuries, to a Romano-German empire marking the beginning of the Middle Ages!-- Lucius Sempronius Turpio 07:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
(One in my talk-page, other on your and a third one here, one "here" would have been quite enough)
Did the roman empire take over ALL the countries surrounding the medditerrainian sea? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.250.172.74 ( talk) 01:13, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
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i think that the greek influence on the romans should be stated, i.e., most of their army tactics and what the romans used in every day life was invented by a greek or anotherWillgfass2 21:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)willgfass
Right sure, we all know how well the Romans used the Greek phalanx and the Companion cavalary to expand the republic, NOT. Flamarande 00:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Very true the Romans did take many things from the Greeks, (hence Greco-Roman civilization), but that was all based on culture, the Romans focused on mobile heavy infantry units, their infantry was their main bulk they never really expanded on their calvery, it has historically been considered their weak point in their army, but it was nontheless trained. My point is is that Roman culture was basically the same as Greek culture, such as the ideas of Democracy and Law. However, the Romans never used the Greek's miltary formations or tactics that I am well aware of, i believe thier military derived from the other latin cultures such as the Etruscans. Cmatos1991 17:32, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Flamarande most scholars wouldn't agree with you. Not only democracy but also the very concept of polis was adapted from the Greeks. Constitution and military were probably the only domains where Rome made its own innovations, although their origins were there too the Athenian constitution and the Greek phalanx. Miskin 17:36, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
The polis was a concept that all Italic peoples adapted from the Italian Greeks. As I said before the Roman Republic did come up with remarkable innovations in the fields of military and state formation. But do not forget the Greek influence in all fields of culture from science to letters. But for someone who believes that Byzantines were just 'Romans' and not Greeks who got potically assimilated to the Roman ecumenical state, this makes quite a contradiction. If we assume that Byzantines were just Romans, then it means that the Roman Empire got finally assimilated into Greek culture and retained nothing from its past, except its very name (and that in Greek). So what you claim about "Roman culture" becomes moot by your own logic. Miskin 18:26, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I've never used the term "Greek nation", I said "Greek monarchy" which is a mainstream connotation for post-Manzikert Byzantium. Greek-speakers were never a nation in the modern sense before 1821. I think the answer to who is the most important successor of Rome is an abjective one. It depends on someone's criteria on defining "Roman" and the "Romans". For example Byzantium was the only real political successor of the Roman Empire, but as Charlesmagne correcly emphasised the Greeks were neither speakers of the "Roman language" nor possessors of the Roman land, and the city of Rome itself chose the German Emperor as the legimate inheritor of the Empire. Both Byzantium and the Holy Roman Empire started off as Roman Imperial states which imported Latin as their official languages, but soon thereafter they both became Greek and German states respectively. This is only natural if you consider the evolution of civilisation over the centuries. However I brought this up because I think that the Eastern Roman Empire (meaning Byzantium even before the fall of the Western Empire and while it had Latin as an official language) proves the important position of Greek culture in the Roman Empire. In the West all subjected peoples were assimilated and Latinized, but in the East even when Latin was imported for official purposes, it never gained popularity and didn't manage to survive. Miskin 22:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way many Greeks are of the opinion that there is one and only Roman Empire which ends in 1453, and would never accept to call it 'Greek monarchy' at any point, clearly a view which doesn't meet consensus. I'm of the realistic view that a culture is not defined only by means of political continuity, and that when it comes to editing articles wikipedia should always stick to mainstream terminology and should not try to decide between right and wrong. Miskin 22:56, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Rome dominated Western Eurasia, comprising the majority of its population. This isn't correct. Rome was a city. It was the empire which comprised the majority of the population in Western Eurasia. Rintrah 18:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Another comment: some of this article is written like a high school essay. Why is this in the article: Who was the first emperor? is one of the never ending questions about the Roman Empire.? I am too tired to edit this myself. Perhaps someone else can attend to improving the quality of writing.
I was going to read the whole article, but the First Emperor section thoroughly discouraged me. Rintrah 19:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
"Rome" is very commonly used as shorthand for "the Roman Empire" in multiple sources ranging from academic works to TV, movies and fiction - I don't think we need to change that. The section on the first emperor is an important debate, but still (despite revision) not quite accurate - the title of "Imperator" really referred to generalship and has only assumed the "imperialist" connotation via centuries of subsequent history. Roman emperors themselves were in modern terms essentially military dictators and the "imperial" system a sort of aristocratic militarised slave-owning universal culture with some local and regional liberties and religious tolerance, that evolved slowly in stages from "alleged democratic republic" to "alleged universal empire". So the whole debate is slightly flawed and anachronistic and user Rintrah is right to raise it - however, it does seem worth discussing it as to the modern mind the obvious query is "when did the empire start?" MarkThomas 10:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Alot of this article seems to have been directly copied from various subject textbooks. I myself have wikified the sentence "Our major primary sources include the:" to "Primary sources for this include:" or something similar. A fine tooth comb is needed to clean this article, many parts of it are contradictory to Wiki standards.
Bigbrisco
19:10, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Apologies if this has already been discussed, did a quick check of the archives. I'm wondering if the word " autocratic" in the opener is quite right - most modern experts tend to speak of Rome as an aristocratic society - not that autocracy is wholly wrong, but it tends to imply that all power is in one person, but in many periods of the empire and at different times, that was not completely the case; senators had real power, as did governers, other members of the imperial family, particular generals and so on. It is certainly true under some emperors but I think classical scholars viewed that sort of absolutism as defective and more enlightened emperors ruled slightly more collaboratively. Opinions please? I think it should say either aristocratic or aristocratic and (sometimes) autocratic. MarkThomas 09:47, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for all this Varana, I do very much agree with your and others' views above about power deriving from the Emperor. I guess I feel suitably corrected. :-) Maybe I was thinking though that Senators had slightly more power sometimes than is implied in your comments above - true that dictatorial emperors treated them as comical or suppressed them, but some emperors seem to have treated them actively as a parliament. Also the tetrarchy and vicarius periods post-Diocletian I think distributed power more, although quite right, it derived from the emperor(s).
I see from your own page that you do maps sometimes, what do you think of the map issue below I raised, are you able to edit that map? I tried contacting the author but with no response. It is certainly wrong to show Dacia as under Roman rule in AD 14. MarkThomas 16:46, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Varana. I've just been browsing the Roman_Empire/reorganization mentioned above - this I see has some stage maps in green, but not the multi-coloured integrated map we are discussing - does that mean in effect we need no longer bother what's on this page but should instead focus on the reorg page? Thanks for any guidance. MarkThomas 21:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The map (which is nice and generally very good) seems to show Dacia (modern-day Romania and part of Bulgaria) as being Roman in 14AD, which is wrong - Trajan conquered Dacia in 101-6 - contrast with the map below, also on Wikipedia, showing the supposed extent of the empire in 50AD. How do we go about getting the map re-drawn? I really like it, the colour scheme and simplicity is really good. Mark Thomas 10:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you are right RafaelG, and I did not mean to imply the above map should be our only source; merely that it is correct not to show Dacia as part of the empire at that time. Here is the map I am talking about, just to be completely clear. I think this is a great map. Just that Dacia is wrongly colour-coded. MarkThomas 12:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
This is a beautiful new map, thanks for all your efforts with it Varana! Couple of things I noticed - is it just my browser/PC, or is the colour in your key box for 218BC not the same as the one on the map? One other thing - I've often seen empire maps that show parts of the region north of the Black Sea (including part of the Crimea) as Roman - did you leave these off or is it that they were occupied later when other parts of the empire were smaller? MarkThomas 20:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I think that the conquests of Trajan in Orient should be explained as temporary conquest then lost, as the conquest of Germania by Augustus (wich isn't showed in the map) and present Scotland invaded succesfully by Agrícola who then retreat quickly.
-Fco
How is that even possible if the Roman Republic didn't dissolve until four years later, in 27 BC? -- MosheA 01:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Personally I think it's wrong in the article - a lot of sources show the republic ending effectively at the same time as Augustus assumed supreme power in 31, or else when Ceasar had himself declared Dictator and Imperator in 49BC. MarkThomas 09:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Very entertaining and well-argued piece, thanks Flamarande. :-) I was really just querying the use of the 27BC date as one of the choices, but having checked more extensively and looked in one or two of my own books, I now accept that it is sometimes used. The entry appears to cover the ground pretty well, as does your piece above! MarkThomas 19:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
"...it maintained Roman legal and cultural traditions within a distinctly Greek Orthodox form for another thousand years until it finally succumbed to Latins in 1204, and then the Ottoman Empire on 29 May 1453." This sentence is probably a bit confusing to those unfamilar with Byzantine history -- how can an empire be eradicated twice? Perhaps there should be a brief mention of the greek reconquest, or else leave out the referance to the fourth crusade (as it wasn't the true endpoint). -- 141.157.74.8 17:52, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Your obviously losing grips with fact. The initial church of Jesus Christ and God was started by what is distinctly today the Greek Orthodox CHurch. The Papacy and the Germanics following the Papal Heresy called Catholism were responsible for teh damage and destruction of the Eastern Empire through the blatant mis use of their powers and through the blasphemous and hell bound condemnation of their satanic actions that called men to aid in wars for their own political agendas.
Ephestion 14:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
User User:Armodios is making a series of fairly extreme and unsupported edits to the lead in connection with the above, having already reverted twice I would be grateful if other editors could also review. Thanks. MarkThomas 19:40, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Armodios, you've already made it very clear you have strong views on this, but the article uses terms that are widely used elsewhere and any casual reader of Wikipedia deserves a chance to read good quality information on this important subject using words and phrases that are familiar and also explored further and deeper on other pages. "Byzantine" is a very commonly used terminology not just here in Wikipedia but everywhere in both academic and popular literature, on TV, internet sites, etc. It's a very common phenomenon that the modern names for historical movements, nations, cultures, peoples and events are different in various ways to those that were originally used. This too can be explained in Wikipedia but it does not mean that we must use them generally in articles now, since it would be confusing. This is why I and other editors reverted (and will continue to revert if they don't make sense given the above) your recent changes. MarkThomas 11:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks Nicknack009, very accurately put. By the way, the Lead of Byzantine Empire also goes to some lengths to explain to the layman the various naming conventions and how the peoples of that empire thought of themselves as well. MarkThomas 12:51, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Armodius, your discussion belongs in the page Talk:Founding of Rome, as it is about the origin myths of Rome, of which there are many, the "Trojan origin" being just one (and as with many such myths, no actual evidence whatever to back it up). Thanks. MarkThomas 13:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a section about the successor states and there are couple of mistakes about the Turkish claim for the throne of the Roman Empire. The Turkish invasion of Italy stopped in 1481 (with the death of Mehmet II) not in 1480. Also it was more like a retreat than a defeat for Ottomans. Ottoman historians argue that Mehmet decided to use Otranto as the base of his invasion but when he died (some argues that he was poisoned) his plans were not carried on mostly because of the conflict between his sons, Cem Bey and Bayezid (later Bayezid II). Otranto was lost to western powers during this power struggle. With respect, Deliogul 21:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)
Look, you are not supossed to wait for the anyone's approval (the above "you" - there is no such person) to improve a article. Read first the Wikipedia:Be bold in updating pages aka Be Bold (in particular the but don't be reckless section) guildline and then improve the article. If your improvements meet with opposition someone will either revert them and/or put the issue here for proper factfinding/checkup. Don't forget to include your sources (references) at the correct location. Flamarande 16:21, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
The project Roman Empire/reorganization lost its momentum half a year ago. Rewriting the whole Roman Empire article is probably to big a task for the small ancient history community on Wikipedia. I think we might as well remove the talk-box at the top of this page, and declare the project defunct. I guess improving the present article step-by-step is a more realistic endeavor. Any thoughts?-- Hippalus
I've reorganised the levels of the headings of the historical sections relating to the period between Constantine and Theodosius, and added a couple of sentences on the Western Empire between 395 and 474. These are there just to provide some continuity until something better can be added - I hope to do so in a few days but (of course) if anyone else feels like doing so meanwhile, please step in. PWilkinson 20:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
this article line 9 at 5.40PM 4 Feb 2007: "From the time of Augustus to the Fall of the Western Empire, Rome dominated Western Eurasia, comprising the majority of its population."
Not really. Firstly domination is almost better known as occupation. Rome was South of the Baltic, and didn't often include much West of the Rhine in Europe. For majority of Population to be a majority it has to actually be there, and here it is simply not there. It is stretching things a bit to say Rome dominated Europe-you might as well say that the USA dominated the Western Hemisphere, good concept, but wishfull thinking. Sure, Rome wanted to dominate Europe, but who was Herman the German?? He's the guy who says to Rome that it is only wishful thinking, and yes, there is a place for saying that Rome wanted to do this, but history won't hold the rest of this, and Europe is kind of clearly the bulk of the West end of Eurasia as it seems to have been known since the 19th Century in everyplace that I have seen it until just yesterday. Why West Eurasia ? The term is not helping here. Are you trying to form a link to support the current expansions of NATO beyond the Atlantic or of the EU beyond Europe ? There may be better ways to do that, and the placement of this term is confusing.
Rome dominated the Mediteranean and controlled all of the islands and coastal areas and clearly dominated Southwestern Europe. Find a way to say that, because it is the truth. John5Russell3Finley 23:16, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
What type of jobs did women and men hold in ancient Rome?
Hi everyone. Just wanted to say this is very nice page in my opinion. I specialize in African history and wanted to make a similar table for the Mali Empire article. I'm having trouble getting the table to look right. Does anyone have the template for this info box, cuz its not showing up in the edits. Thnx in advance and keep up the good work.
Scott Free 23:00, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Nicomedia ( Izmit in modern Turkey, located east of Istanbul, on the Marmara Sea) was the eastern capital of the Roman Empire between 286-324 (until Licinius was defeated by Constantine the Great in 324) during the Tetrarchy system of Diocletian. Constantine also resided in Nicomedia between 324 and 330, until he established Constantinople as the new capital.
Diocletian chose Nicomedia for himself as the capital city of the senior Augustus.
Therefore, Nicomedia should also be added on the capital cities graph at the top of the page. KeremTuncay 14:37, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
At least one of the two maps should show that the Roman Empire held territory up to the
Oder River, before the
barbarians drove them out, and especially that what is now a large part of the Netherlands (west of the
Rhine River) was part of the Roman Empire, even if only for a few decades.
Chiss Boy
15:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with that. we should have a map like that ¥→ WikiDragon295 20:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This article seems to be written from pro-Asian POV. Chiefly the reference to the Roman Empire being a co-superpower with Han China. The Roman Empire encompassed multiple cultures and civilizations, from Egypt to Gaul, from the Carthaginians to Mesopotamians. Han China ruled over a comparable area and population, but ruled over a single ethnicity (cultural ethnicity) and yet was not as unified as the Roman Empire (more a collection of autonomous states rather than Rome's unified government). Also, the reference to the Roman Empire's rule in western Eurasia. The Roman Empire held territory from southern to northern (though not far-northern) Europe, parts of southwestern and Central Asia, and A LOT OF NORTHERN AND EASTERN AFRICA.
Chiss Boy
14:32, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
According to the article Bay of Kiel, it says that the Romans kept a military presense in Denmark!? This is not cited at all. If it is true, then someone should put a map of the empire with Denmark in its borders.
Kiel and Pliny There is a tantalizing piece of possible evidence of the use of the name in antiquity. Pliny (Book IV.97) is describing the Kattegat and the large number of islands in it, the most famous being Scandinavia. Then,
”quidam haec … tradunt sinum Cylipenum vocari, et in ostio insulam Latrim, mox alterum sinum Lagnum conterminum Cimbris.” ”Some report that there is a bay called Cylipenus and an island, Latris, at its mouth, followed by another bay, Lagnus, coterminous with the Cimbri.” Locations of the bay with its island have been hypothesized as far east as Riga, but Pliny clearly says that it was coterminous with the Cimbri, and the latter were certainly located in Jutland. The Cyli- in Cylipenus is most likely to be Kiel, although whether the bay, the fjord, or both are meant is uncertain. Latris may be a translation into Latin of Langeland, based on the use of the adjective, latus, “wide”, for long. The Romans would have seen it as a wide island. Lagnus must be the Bay of Mecklenburg, or of Lübeck, or both.
Admiral Pliny tells us that the Romans kept a military presence in Denmark, which is contrary to what we are accustomed to thinking about their relationship to the ancient Germanics. He states that the Roman military had intelligence of 23 islands, including Bornholm. Beyond that he isn’t sure. The presence need not have been imposed by the Romans. It may have been simply naval stations permitted by treaty with the Cimbri. Perhaps the first shipyards of Kiel were Roman, but this is only speculation. Mrld 18:55, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The article lists Latin as the language of the empire and gives a nod to Greek as a later language used in the Eastern Empire. While in terms of official languages this is accurate (the pop-up box does not say "official") in terms of overall usage this is arguably a distortion. Certainly from the outset of the imperial period Greek was the majority language in the Eastern half of the empire. In fact, since the major population centers were in the East I'm fairly certain it was the majority language in the whole empire (I have not seen statistics to confirm this, though). Moreover, Greek was widely used even in Rome (e.g. the surviving quotations from Caesar's assasination in Rome are all Greek, not Latin). Again, I don't have stats as to how prevalent this was in Rome although I have read that it was so prevalent that for some time many in the upper classes had even proposed changing the official language to Greek (i.e. the upper classes in the city itself).
Although this is a detail Western historians have traditionally not wanted to acknowledge it seems worth clarifying in this article. Comments? -- Mcorazao 18:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Can anyone tell me who created the bronze of Marcus Aurelius in this article? Thank you.
I changed the statement in the intro
to
Anticipating somebody might want a clearer explanation than my edit comment ...
A few problems with the original statement.
I don't mean to overanalyze but I think it is particularly important that statements in the intro not be misleading. If anybody doesn't like my phrasing please feel free to choose something different.
-- Mcorazao 14:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Dont you think there should be mention of the holy roman empire as a successor to the Roman Empire? Even if it wasn't the Papacy and the Pope recognized it as Rome's successor. The papacy would be one to make this claim as the Roman Catholic Church is the only truly Roman trace of the western empire left.
Alphablast, I reverted the following edit.
Three reasons:
If you or anybody disagree you can feel free to put it back.
-- Mcorazao 04:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Anybody think it's a good idea to lock down this article a bit? This article has been rated very highly and has become fairly mature. Yet I am seeing lots of random edits occurring often by anonymous editors which are compromising the quality of the article.
-- Mcorazao 03:26, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
There are too many run-on sentences. This example is typical:
Zeno probably expected that the Italians under the leadership of the senate would start a revolt and reorganize the Western Roman Empire,[citation needed] however there are no records of any significant resistance or insurgency against Odoacer.
Please fix these. RedRabbit1983 04:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
User:Pmanderson has finally admitted that there is an Old meaning of the term Republic at the Talk:List of republics page. But instead of including this old term, he states that the Old Meaning of Republic is "monarchy" and so he has added this to List_of_republics#Other_meanings_of_Republic
==Other meanings of Republic==
These were in some respects broader than the present meaning of republic, and would include not only the republics of antiquity, as above, but, for example, the following monarchies:
Since the Oxford English Dictionary last cites this meaning from 1684, it is difficult to tell to which present states it would have been applied.
Can someone explain to me why the Roman Republic has the Newer definition and the Roman Empire has the Older meaning of republic? Can someone who is smarter than me and has a college degree explain this to me? I am having difficulty with this. Is the Roman Empire really a republic?
Is NOT Rome a Classical republic. And if Modern republics diminish religion why was the constitution of Rome divided between Res divina (religious law) and Res publica (secular law)? Is there not a glaring discrepancy here? WHEELER 00:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Don't you think the introductory passage is too long? It should end after the first paragraph.-- Dominik92 16:15, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I am going to add a Holy Roman Empire section to this article under The Fall of the Western Roman Empire section, because the Holy Roman Empire was a conscience attempt to revive the western empire in Leo III, and Charlemange's eyes, and among other emperor's such as Otto I, and Fredrick I to name a few. It should also be noted (not on this article of course) that in the west the Byzantines were know as the Greek Empire, and the Holy Roman Empire was looked at as an heir.
With these reasons alone the Holy Roman Empire should be noted on this article. If anyone has any problems or concerns to me added the medieval Western Roman Empire to this one please let me know. -- Lucius Sempronius Turpio 07:16, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
With all that said, still Rome as a political entity, regardless of its ties to the ancient empire, wasnt formally taken off of maps untill 1806. We can debate endlessly here about the Holy Roman Empire, and the Byzantine Empire, and who spoke what, and who had true Translatio Imperii. I do however believe that 1806 should be the offical end date of the empire, because if nothing, that was the end of the Roman Empire, on paper(regardless of the Holy Roman Empire being a true heir to the Western Roman Empire), even though I believe it was.-- Lucius Sempronius Turpio 05:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
I find it somewhat peculiar that in this article the term "Roman Empire" is tied so closely to the form of government, i.e. the monarchy. Does this correspond with normal practice in scholarship? In the territorial sense, Rome was an empire long before it ceased to be a republic, and I think that for most people the form of government is not the first thing that comes to mind when confronted with the term "Roman Empire"; rather, it would be the great power that established itself around the Mediterranean after the Punic Wars. "Imperial Rome" (as opposed to the in parallel with the article "Roman Republic") would be more transparent. I find it all the more confusing that the Latin term Imperium Romanum, which has nothing to do with emperorship, is mentioned in the lead, suggesting that it illustrates the term "Roman Empire" as used in the article, which it doesn't.
Iblardi
16:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Then again, something should be done about the infoboxes saying Imperium Romanum for this article and Res publica Romana for the other, as these terms have nothing to do with forms of government and their use in this context is therefore misleading. Imperium means "area of control" and res publica "the common cause" or "the state". They do not simply overlap with the English "Empire" and "Republic". Iblardi 07:05, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe - and this in only my take on it based on the historians I've read - that the general divisions between Republic and Empire are the forms of government. I don't think anyone can reasonably fail to acknowledge that Rome was an "international empire" since the end of the Samnite Wars, when the Republican forms of government are going strong. However, I think that if you poll 10 professional historians/writers you'll get a general agreement that the "Republican Period" and the "Imperial Period" are separate, and that the internal form of government is the defining factor. Ideally then we should probably not be talking about "Republican" v.s. "Imperial" periods of Roman History, but Monarchy, Republic, Principate, and Dominate (with a footnote for the short-lived Tetrarchy), but these distinct governmental forms break down into three broad categories: Hereditary Monarchy (the Roman Kingdom period), Republican Form (Roman Republic), and Autocracy (Principate and Dominate - sometimes hereditary as in the Julio-Claudian and Flavian dynasties, sometimes not as in the Antonines). This has been - I believe - the rationale for seperating the periods of Roman history to date: not the international relationship of Rome with her neighbors, but the internal structure of Roman politics.
With that said, why not go back to the histories and check when the mottoes are used? Do they appear in inscriptions? When? How? What for? I'm not even sure that it can be unambiguously agreed upon that Rome had a motto. It is possible however; one could look at official inscriptions and monuments and find one, or the other, or both being used in official documents. If one always appears in document pre- Augustus and the other afterawards, that seems to be pretty clear. If both appear mixed, throughout both periods then the use of both is justified. If neither appears as officially part of all documents and edicts, then maybe neither is appropriate and Roman civilization did not have a motto per se. - Vedexent ( talk) - 00:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Even though Rome exerted political control over her neighbors very early in its history until its eventual demise, and that this might be considered an Empire in the same manner of the later British Empire, historians usually distinguish between the republican and imperial periods of Rome based on its form of government and not its international political and military power.
Hrm. I've just come here after seeing rather peculiar edit. While I can see the confilct about the native name of Roman Empire I don't see any rationale behind calling the "Roman Republic" "Imperium Romanum". Perhaps I've missed something. Would it not be simpler to use those and and only those names whose use is well attested - i.e. res publica in both cases, imperium in neither? -- Nema Fakei 10:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
The following image:
Is wrong because Iraq was invaded numerous times and Ctesiphon itself was sacked by the Roman army four times, so how could they have only invaded it once?
Once by Trajan
Once by Avidius Cassius
Once by Septimius Severus in which he deported and enslaved many
Once by Galerius, although an earlier attempt was a failure, another in 296 AD worked
Julian invaded Mesopotamia and wa skilled outside of Ctesiphon
Heraclius won a great victory at Nineveh and then marched to Ctesiphon to recieve Perisan armistice terms
Thats a total of 6 invasions, not one. Therefore I will make this edit.
Regards, Tourskin 03:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
So shal I change the text to a few times instead of once. The Honorable Kermanshahi 08:35, 9 August 2007 (UTC) \
It seems that there was never any consensus behind adding the Holy Roman Empire section, especially describing it as a genuine continuation of the actual Roman Empire. Why is this section still there (or at least why has it not been rewritten)?
I propose removing this as it is inconsistent with modern historiography (with all due respect to the Roman Catholic Church). The discussion in the final section regarding states that claimed to be successors is sufficient.
-- Mcorazao 16:37, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I am going to mark the life span of the Roman Empire from the Battle of Actium in 31 BC, to the abdication of Francis II in 1806.
In 1806 the Roman Empire was on maps, making it the offical date Rome was taken off maps, and ceased to be a political entity. This is all regardless if you dont consider the Holy Roman Empire to be the true heir of the Western Empire!
Do people think the Barbarians just killed all the Romans after 476? The answer is no of course, most of the Germans that took power were already Romanized. The first two German rulers after the fall, Odoacer, and Theodoric the Great even answered to the Byzantine emperor. Roman tradition, and culture didnt just go extinct, as we know because our own society, and cultures in the western world are heavily influenced by Rome.
The people still considered themselves Romans after the fall of Rome, and told there children, and grand-children they were Romans too, this went on for generations, but also while mixing with the Germans too (if you want, check out Romano-Germanic). The Roman populace was never wiped out, and it is debateable that Roman civilian loses were minimal. 300 plus years later there was still a Roman essence among the people.
When things had settled down after all the Choas, and Charlemange was able to unify most of Western Europe again, it was right to revive the empire in the west, he was crowned King of the Romans, and took the title Imperator Augustus. The Byzantine Empress Irene must have reconized Charlemange's Empire as the true Western heir, or she would never have agreed to marry her son to his daughter.
There are many recorded Byzantine and Holy Roman Royal marriages, which further prove that the Byzantines reconized the Roman state in the west. One good example is when in 972, when the Byzantine emperor John I Tzimisces publicly recognized Otto's imperial title and agreed to a marriage between Otto's son and heir Otto II and his niece Theophano.
Saying that the Holy Roman Empire didnt have any real claim to be the the Western Roman Empire is ludacris. But thats not even the debate here! the debate is the offical end of the empire, and that date is 1806 when the last Roman Emperor, Francis II, was abdicated by Napoleon, and Rome, as an Empire was taken off of maps after being on them for millennia.
The history of Rome spans thousands of years of the existence of a city that grew from a small Italian village in the 9th century BC into the center of a vast civilization that dominated the Mediterranean region for centuries, to a Romano-German empire marking the beginning of the Middle Ages!-- Lucius Sempronius Turpio 07:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
(One in my talk-page, other on your and a third one here, one "here" would have been quite enough)
Did the roman empire take over ALL the countries surrounding the medditerrainian sea? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.250.172.74 ( talk) 01:13, August 29, 2007 (UTC)