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Thank Jove! Alright, then.
Some thoughts: 1. A History of the Roman Empire article may be overkill... Ancient Egypt covers a specific geographic area over a very long period of time. The Roman Empire is a political entity. I think that its opening para should point to the entity from which it evolved out of and its final paragraphs should point to the entities which evolved out of it, to wit, Latin Europe, the Byzantine state, and the Islamic Caliphate. I think the issue of history is best addressed through a brief overview linking to the other topical articles. Each of the Emperors has a full Wikipedia article; several of the political periods, such as the 'Good' Emperors, the Third Century Crisis and the Tetrarchy, have articles; all a history overview should nees to do is link to them. 2. I really liked the Dutch article; it was a featured article of the nl.wikipedia site. I encourage everyone here to eyeball it, to get a sense of its length and how it covered the topics, even if you can't understand all of the words.
Ddama 23:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The city of Rome was founded by the Latin people on a river in the center of Italy. It was a good location, which gave them a chance to control all of Italy. It put them near to the midpoint of the Mediterranean Sea. Two other groups lived in what is now Italy: the Greeks in the south, and the Etruscans in the north. The Latins borrowed some ideas from both peoples. In 509 B.C., Latins overthrew the Etruscan king who had ruled over his people and over Latium. The Latins said Latium was now a republic. The people had the power to vote and choose leaders. -- For full discussion see: [1]
No, it was copied and pasted from here: [3] by someone of the name Constantine. One who obviously believes the term 'Roman Empire' should be swapped with the term 'Latin Empire'. 69.211.92.115 14:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Mohammad al-Assad
No, we couldn't. The Latin were a people leaving in central Italy, in Latium, and Rome was (despite some mixture) a Latin city, but the Empire was conquered by the Romans and not by the Latins. The Empire has always been called "Roman". Last but not least, there is an entity called "Latin Empire", existing from 1204 to 1261 in the city of Constantinople. Str1977 23:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I moved the following over from the article, as I don't understand its rationale in the historical narrative, especially in an overview section.
Str1977 23:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is this the "Christian Empire"? Constantine to Theodosius? Julian the Apostate doesn't count? Christendom, the Christian Empire, is generally dated from 390 to the present.
The section title is problematic but for other reasons.
Julian only reigned for a few years and thus can be glossed over as an intermission.
What is more problematic is that the section ends with 395, whereas the "Christian Empire" lasted way beyond that date. (That's like writing a section on the Migrations and calling it Middle Ages). Also, officially the Empire became Christian only in 390.
Maybe, something like "Constantine and successors" would fit better.
Also, there is an inaccuracy about the Thessalonica riots. The people rebelled because Theodosius had a famous cart driver arrested (who was accused of homosexuality), but they didn't rebel against any new laws.
The same passage was inaccurate in another way, overstating the importance of Ambrose's act. It confirmed the place of the Emperor inside and not above the Church. It didn't lead to a Church dominance over the Emperor and it hadn't anything to do with the Church "outlasting" the Western part of the Empire. That had reasons in military, economics, politics and the routs of the migrating people. Str1977 23:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Another thing I don't understand is why the article has a sections "Constantine & successors" and "Late Antiquity in the West" and then returns to Constantine again? Wouldn't it be better to move forward chronologically? Str1977 23:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Now I understand the title "the Christian Empire" - dealing with the Empire becoming Christian. I have retitled it again and moved it to a better place. I also moved "Late Antiquitiy in the West", retitled, to a better place. Str1977 00:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The glasses icon now take a visitor to the 3D pictures, which have been reprocessed to have far fewer artifacts. Free glasses are available on line. Google "free glasses". There were over 30 million glasses shipped in 2005, so it has great potential, especially with young people. A group of editors has been working on the new dual link approach for 3D. 3dnatureguy 23:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The following recently deleted text contains useful information, which should be returned to the article, if it could be presented as a report of a referenced source:
No, Masamax, it is not a lie. The paragraph talks about "the civil wars of the later empire" - this a bit awkward (though the vagueness of "later" redeems the misusing of "Empire" common on WP - up to the title). By this it refers to the civil wars of 68/69 or 193 or of the 3rd century. No one tried to return to a government without a princeps (except the Senate in 41). Str1977 09:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Cato's war against Caesar? This article is about the EMPIRE isn't it? We aren't talking about the Republic. By later empire, one means after Augustus in this context. Cato (along with Pomphey), fought to save the republic, not to restore it as, at the time, it still existed. One of the primary reasons for the civil wars of the first century, as soon as Caesar had conquered Gual, was over if the republic would last or not. Caesar was assassinated by senators who wanted to save the republic. The 1st and 2nd Triumvirates (Caesar, Pompey and Crasus, then Octavian, Antony and Lepitus) where made of either Republicans (such as Pompey and Antony) or Caesarians (such as Caesar and Octavian). The fighting THEN was over republic or empire. As soon as the first couple of generations after the Augustus became emperor had died, no one was interested in a restoration of the republic. No one wanted to go back to the dual co-consul system. No one had any faith in the senate. No one thought that there was anything good about the republic. They saw the republic as good to rule a small city-state in central Italy, but ineffective to rule a world empire. Most even didn't see any difference between the days of the later republic and the times they were living in. Remember, republics didn't even become fashionable until the 18th century AD. Political theorists such as Montesquieu thought monarchies were best. The Roman Emperor was thinly vieled at least as a constitutional monarchy until about the reign of Diocletian. No one was interested in a restoration of the republic. The only way this can be proven conclusively is if we can find somewhere a list of the reasons for EVERY civil war the empire ever fought. I think the paragraph is fine. Politicaljunkie6 12:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know how much traffic this or other similar Roman threads get? How many people actively edit these types of threads? Politicaljunkie6 13:03, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Something needs to be done about "cultural developments," "sources" and "Christianization of the empire." These are somewhat irrelevent. This should look more like a timeline than it does.
There is somewhat of a proportionality problem. Does Commodus really deserve so much more attention than all the Antonines combined? Trajan alone should get far more written about him than Commodus.
There isn't that much on the crisis of the third century, which there should be.
Do we really need a section (a whole paragraph at that) on the 1,100 year history of the Byzantine empire in this article?
Plus the organization is a mess. It really should be organized by dynasties.
How is the reorganization coming?
(this unsigned comment was made by Politicaljunkie6)
I have made an adjustment to the end of the section on the byzantine empire. The Byzantines did call themselves Roman up to their demise, but "Romaioi" had also confusingly been taken up by Greeks as a self-identifier, meaning a Greek-speaker or a Roman citizen of greek ancestry. "Romaioi" has been out of favour in Greece for more than 200 years , and contrary to the previous edit, paradoxically denotes greeks rather than Romans in modern greece.
I just did a major overhall to this page over on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire/reorganization. It basically is the same as what we already have, only it is much more organized and flows much nicer. Would anyone object towards me replacing the current page with this new page? Most of what is on the new page I just copied and pasted, so there weren't any major changes. Politicaljunkie6 01:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Once all the existing Roman Empire sub-sections have been fitted into the developing outline, we can begin to work out some text that will be more than a timeline of Emperors and battle dates, which does remain one aspect of an improved article nevertheless. Talk:Roman Empire/reorganization remains an open forum for suggestions and progress reports. -- Wetman 06:50, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is wikipedia's own page on the Byzantine empire :
"The Byzantines identified themselves as Romans (Rwma?oi – Romans) which, by the 12th century, had already become a synonym for a Hellene (?llhn – Greek). However, the term was used for mainly legal and administrative purposes. The Byzantines preferred to call themselves Romioi (Rwmio? – Christian Greeks with Roman citizenship)."
Does anyone have the map of the Roman Empire at its greatest extent? Thanks Zmmz 05:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I am looking for a "map of the Roman Empire under Emperor Claudius" (which would include Britannia and would not include Dacia or Mesopotamia), and I am also interrested in a map which shows the "divided empire" (with the Western Roman Empire in red, and the eastern Roman Empire in purple, please? pretty please?). Thanx
If you happen to see an map which I can use, will you please tell me? I would be much obliged
I tried to contact the author of the single map of Western Roman Empire, to ask him for more maps but I can´t find him (the imagepage hasn´t any history sheet), so if any of you know an user who would be willing to make the maps I need, would you please tell me? Thanx a million Flamarande 10:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is a map in 400AD [4]
Map in 1 AD (Claudius reign)
Another in 395 AD
--
Hadrian1
16:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
It is also a Dutch featured article. General Eisenhower 22:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the section on the Roman Empire's legacy say that the intellectual history derived from the Greeks applies to the Western world rather than the world as a whole? scotsboyuk
Okay, as anyone can see by the history of the reorganization article, it has been largely abandoned. It is simply way to booring to continue it singlehandledly, and thereby I propose a merge asap. Hopefully it will improve the article (I believe it will). Flamarande 14:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a good picture but it's in a bad place in the article. I'm going to just remove it for now and can someone elese put it somewhere elese in the article: [[Image:Statue-Augustus.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Octavian, widely known as [[Augustus]], founder of the Roman empire]] -- Scott3 01:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Please do not use the word "Goth." Use either Ostrogoth or Visigoth, as they are two distinct Germanic tribes. Thanks, MedievalScholar 19:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The starting and introductionary paragraphs are bluntly confusing. What is this nonsense of senators being executed and all? I wanted an introduction to What the Roman Empire was (thankfully its still there) and not what happened to senators. If, When and maygbe when I need to know that, I shall visit the area of wikipedia which deals with that areas. Arctic-Editor 16:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The calculation for the area of the Roman Empire seems terribly precise (and pedantically unecessary!) But was it really the largest of the Classical Empires? What about that of Alexander the Great or, more to the point, the Empire of China? White Guard 02:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
You are probably right about the empire of Alexander, though it may be interesting to do a comparison. China, I think, is slightly more problematic. By the time of the Han Dynasty (206BC-220AD) imperial power had extended west to Xinjang, and into the northern parts of Vietnam and Korea. This is a significant area of land and must be equal to-if not greater than-than the maximum extent of the Roman Empire under Trajan? White Guard 02:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
It really should only be land area that is taken into consideration, and I imagine the calculation in this article has been determined on that basis alone. White Guard 04:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The Han Empire was larger. See largest empire of the ancient world. White Guard 02:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The reorganization subpage needs an ample amount of work! So instead of editing the main article, make edits to the reorganization subpage to speed up the process. Also, I suggest breaking the subpage article into different articles - a perfect example of this would be the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season. SGFF 17:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
What made the Roman Empire successful enough to establish 250 years of relative peace and stability starting around when Caeser and Augustus where in control?
The Roman Empire was never truely stable. In fact that 250 year period of peace you are refering to, the Pax Romana was the the begining of the end for the Roman Empire. What happened during that period of time was this: the Romans ceased any further major campaigns which ended the flow of plunder money which for every constantly expanding empire is critical, they began to integrate germanic tribes and other northern Europeans into their armies. This inparticular is a key factor for why the empire fell. At the begining of the Roman Republic the armies we loyal to the country and to the government, when the Roman Empire came around the people were begining to become more loyal to the general rather than the goverment.(that is why you see generals walking into Rome, taking over with miltary dominance and then being assassinated later on.) When the Roman Republic was active, which is arguably Rome's climax, the army was mainly Italian soldiors that fought for their country, when the germnas were integrated during the Roman Empire they felt no attachment to the empire and were more dedicated the the man that payed them and led them to victories, the General. This is what truely marks the begining of the end for the Roman Empire.
Cmatos1991
17:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah this is true but something I forgot to do yesterday was that I firmly believe that Christianity had a key role in the fall o the empire. If you think about it when Christianity was introduced into Roman culture with it's beliefs of Peace Love and Harmony it could have negativly affected the war-like attitude of the Roman War Machine. Yes I agree that this was the process of transformation. I did not finish what I had fully intended to say yesterday because I had to leave that is why the passage ended so suddenly. Cmatos1991 17:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I have just finished this article, but i'm afraid my english is not very good, would someone like to take a look? — Argentino ( talk/ cont.) 19:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be on this page?
Paul W 23/10/06
Hi all...just changed the dates at the top of the article to reflect the standard interpretation; it seems to me that listing the "ancient" Roman Empire as ending is 1453 is problematic at best and, at worst, completely disregards the enormous differences between Byzantium (especially after the mid-7th century) and the old empire. Dppowell 04:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
No you are completely wrong on this. Contemporary historical scholarship recognises that the 'Byzantine Empire' was the continuation of the Roman Empire - that is the Roman Empire itself. I suggest you read the following which will confirm this for you:
Byzantine scholars also asserted their continuity as the Roman Empire. See:
Also look at this list of Roman emperors. If you insist on the date 476 then the article should be renamed the Western Roman Empire Roydosan 15:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Dppowell I haven't proved your point at all. You might also like to read:
Gibbon, E. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: v. 4-6 ISBN: 1857151925
which concludes when? In 476? No. It concludes in 1453. More recent scholarship has stressed the continuation of Rome through the ERE as you will find if you bother to look at the books I cited above. And yes you did dispute that the Byzantine Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire - you claimed it was a successor state. To be a successor state there would need to be some sort of break between the first state and the succeeding state. Search high and low cause you ain't going to find one. Also it is far from ludicrous to claim that the Roman Empire ended in 1453 because that is what happened. Claiming anything else is nothing but ignorance and a continuation, knowingly or otherwise, of the enlightenment intellectuals prejudice which sought to denigrate and diminish the place of the Byzantine Empire in history. Roydosan 10:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
And you are correct that a lot of historians use the date of 476 as a cut off point for histories of teh Roman Empire. However they invariably state that it continued in the East until 1453. Roydosan 10:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Dppowell, your assertion that because Marcus Aurelius would no longer recognise it the empire can no longer be termed Roman is utterly ridiculous. Are countries supposed to remain in a time warp if they are to keep their names according to your definition? Yes of course it transformed to the extent that it would have been beyond recognition to someone from the first-third centuries AD - but that doesn't mean it wasn't Roman; that's just progress. As for your claims about OR - this just proves your ignorance about the matter. Try reading some books on the subject. Varana, I'm not disputing the use of Byzantine to distinguish between the early and late empires. The terminology is useful and I wasn't arguing against it. My point is that if dates are to be used then 1453 is clearly the only definitive date for the end of the empire. This isn't revisionism but just what almost every book on the subject states - that after the fall of the empire in the west the empire of the east continued for a thousand years. The fact that many people are ignorant of this is no reason to deny it. Encyclopedias should state the facts not confirm people in their mistaken views - especially when the date of 1453 is corroborated by most academic scholars. Roydosan 10:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok well maybe you should actually read the rest of this article and then you will discover that your interpretation is at variance with it as well as with modern scholarship. If all you can do is claim that you have a better knowledge of the subject without offering any evidence in favour of your inaccurate assessment then it seems to me like you've lost the argument. Roydosan 15:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
No I don't think so since I see no good reason not to restore the dates to the beginning of the article. If you can come up with no better argument than you have read and written on the subject without coming up with some good reasons why you are right I fail to see how you have proved your point. Roydosan 16:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
What consensus? Two other people commented. Hardly enough for a consensus and you are the one who started this by removing the dates in the first place. If anything they should have been left in place before a consensus was reached. Instead you arbitrarily removed them from the article. Roydosan 16:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Thank Jove! Alright, then.
Some thoughts: 1. A History of the Roman Empire article may be overkill... Ancient Egypt covers a specific geographic area over a very long period of time. The Roman Empire is a political entity. I think that its opening para should point to the entity from which it evolved out of and its final paragraphs should point to the entities which evolved out of it, to wit, Latin Europe, the Byzantine state, and the Islamic Caliphate. I think the issue of history is best addressed through a brief overview linking to the other topical articles. Each of the Emperors has a full Wikipedia article; several of the political periods, such as the 'Good' Emperors, the Third Century Crisis and the Tetrarchy, have articles; all a history overview should nees to do is link to them. 2. I really liked the Dutch article; it was a featured article of the nl.wikipedia site. I encourage everyone here to eyeball it, to get a sense of its length and how it covered the topics, even if you can't understand all of the words.
Ddama 23:51, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The city of Rome was founded by the Latin people on a river in the center of Italy. It was a good location, which gave them a chance to control all of Italy. It put them near to the midpoint of the Mediterranean Sea. Two other groups lived in what is now Italy: the Greeks in the south, and the Etruscans in the north. The Latins borrowed some ideas from both peoples. In 509 B.C., Latins overthrew the Etruscan king who had ruled over his people and over Latium. The Latins said Latium was now a republic. The people had the power to vote and choose leaders. -- For full discussion see: [1]
No, it was copied and pasted from here: [3] by someone of the name Constantine. One who obviously believes the term 'Roman Empire' should be swapped with the term 'Latin Empire'. 69.211.92.115 14:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Mohammad al-Assad
No, we couldn't. The Latin were a people leaving in central Italy, in Latium, and Rome was (despite some mixture) a Latin city, but the Empire was conquered by the Romans and not by the Latins. The Empire has always been called "Roman". Last but not least, there is an entity called "Latin Empire", existing from 1204 to 1261 in the city of Constantinople. Str1977 23:12, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I moved the following over from the article, as I don't understand its rationale in the historical narrative, especially in an overview section.
Str1977 23:18, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is this the "Christian Empire"? Constantine to Theodosius? Julian the Apostate doesn't count? Christendom, the Christian Empire, is generally dated from 390 to the present.
The section title is problematic but for other reasons.
Julian only reigned for a few years and thus can be glossed over as an intermission.
What is more problematic is that the section ends with 395, whereas the "Christian Empire" lasted way beyond that date. (That's like writing a section on the Migrations and calling it Middle Ages). Also, officially the Empire became Christian only in 390.
Maybe, something like "Constantine and successors" would fit better.
Also, there is an inaccuracy about the Thessalonica riots. The people rebelled because Theodosius had a famous cart driver arrested (who was accused of homosexuality), but they didn't rebel against any new laws.
The same passage was inaccurate in another way, overstating the importance of Ambrose's act. It confirmed the place of the Emperor inside and not above the Church. It didn't lead to a Church dominance over the Emperor and it hadn't anything to do with the Church "outlasting" the Western part of the Empire. That had reasons in military, economics, politics and the routs of the migrating people. Str1977 23:32, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Another thing I don't understand is why the article has a sections "Constantine & successors" and "Late Antiquity in the West" and then returns to Constantine again? Wouldn't it be better to move forward chronologically? Str1977 23:37, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Now I understand the title "the Christian Empire" - dealing with the Empire becoming Christian. I have retitled it again and moved it to a better place. I also moved "Late Antiquitiy in the West", retitled, to a better place. Str1977 00:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
The glasses icon now take a visitor to the 3D pictures, which have been reprocessed to have far fewer artifacts. Free glasses are available on line. Google "free glasses". There were over 30 million glasses shipped in 2005, so it has great potential, especially with young people. A group of editors has been working on the new dual link approach for 3D. 3dnatureguy 23:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The following recently deleted text contains useful information, which should be returned to the article, if it could be presented as a report of a referenced source:
No, Masamax, it is not a lie. The paragraph talks about "the civil wars of the later empire" - this a bit awkward (though the vagueness of "later" redeems the misusing of "Empire" common on WP - up to the title). By this it refers to the civil wars of 68/69 or 193 or of the 3rd century. No one tried to return to a government without a princeps (except the Senate in 41). Str1977 09:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Cato's war against Caesar? This article is about the EMPIRE isn't it? We aren't talking about the Republic. By later empire, one means after Augustus in this context. Cato (along with Pomphey), fought to save the republic, not to restore it as, at the time, it still existed. One of the primary reasons for the civil wars of the first century, as soon as Caesar had conquered Gual, was over if the republic would last or not. Caesar was assassinated by senators who wanted to save the republic. The 1st and 2nd Triumvirates (Caesar, Pompey and Crasus, then Octavian, Antony and Lepitus) where made of either Republicans (such as Pompey and Antony) or Caesarians (such as Caesar and Octavian). The fighting THEN was over republic or empire. As soon as the first couple of generations after the Augustus became emperor had died, no one was interested in a restoration of the republic. No one wanted to go back to the dual co-consul system. No one had any faith in the senate. No one thought that there was anything good about the republic. They saw the republic as good to rule a small city-state in central Italy, but ineffective to rule a world empire. Most even didn't see any difference between the days of the later republic and the times they were living in. Remember, republics didn't even become fashionable until the 18th century AD. Political theorists such as Montesquieu thought monarchies were best. The Roman Emperor was thinly vieled at least as a constitutional monarchy until about the reign of Diocletian. No one was interested in a restoration of the republic. The only way this can be proven conclusively is if we can find somewhere a list of the reasons for EVERY civil war the empire ever fought. I think the paragraph is fine. Politicaljunkie6 12:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone know how much traffic this or other similar Roman threads get? How many people actively edit these types of threads? Politicaljunkie6 13:03, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Something needs to be done about "cultural developments," "sources" and "Christianization of the empire." These are somewhat irrelevent. This should look more like a timeline than it does.
There is somewhat of a proportionality problem. Does Commodus really deserve so much more attention than all the Antonines combined? Trajan alone should get far more written about him than Commodus.
There isn't that much on the crisis of the third century, which there should be.
Do we really need a section (a whole paragraph at that) on the 1,100 year history of the Byzantine empire in this article?
Plus the organization is a mess. It really should be organized by dynasties.
How is the reorganization coming?
(this unsigned comment was made by Politicaljunkie6)
I have made an adjustment to the end of the section on the byzantine empire. The Byzantines did call themselves Roman up to their demise, but "Romaioi" had also confusingly been taken up by Greeks as a self-identifier, meaning a Greek-speaker or a Roman citizen of greek ancestry. "Romaioi" has been out of favour in Greece for more than 200 years , and contrary to the previous edit, paradoxically denotes greeks rather than Romans in modern greece.
I just did a major overhall to this page over on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire/reorganization. It basically is the same as what we already have, only it is much more organized and flows much nicer. Would anyone object towards me replacing the current page with this new page? Most of what is on the new page I just copied and pasted, so there weren't any major changes. Politicaljunkie6 01:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Once all the existing Roman Empire sub-sections have been fitted into the developing outline, we can begin to work out some text that will be more than a timeline of Emperors and battle dates, which does remain one aspect of an improved article nevertheless. Talk:Roman Empire/reorganization remains an open forum for suggestions and progress reports. -- Wetman 06:50, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Here is wikipedia's own page on the Byzantine empire :
"The Byzantines identified themselves as Romans (Rwma?oi – Romans) which, by the 12th century, had already become a synonym for a Hellene (?llhn – Greek). However, the term was used for mainly legal and administrative purposes. The Byzantines preferred to call themselves Romioi (Rwmio? – Christian Greeks with Roman citizenship)."
Does anyone have the map of the Roman Empire at its greatest extent? Thanks Zmmz 05:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I am looking for a "map of the Roman Empire under Emperor Claudius" (which would include Britannia and would not include Dacia or Mesopotamia), and I am also interrested in a map which shows the "divided empire" (with the Western Roman Empire in red, and the eastern Roman Empire in purple, please? pretty please?). Thanx
If you happen to see an map which I can use, will you please tell me? I would be much obliged
I tried to contact the author of the single map of Western Roman Empire, to ask him for more maps but I can´t find him (the imagepage hasn´t any history sheet), so if any of you know an user who would be willing to make the maps I need, would you please tell me? Thanx a million Flamarande 10:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is a map in 400AD [4]
Map in 1 AD (Claudius reign)
Another in 395 AD
--
Hadrian1
16:54, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
It is also a Dutch featured article. General Eisenhower 22:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't the section on the Roman Empire's legacy say that the intellectual history derived from the Greeks applies to the Western world rather than the world as a whole? scotsboyuk
Okay, as anyone can see by the history of the reorganization article, it has been largely abandoned. It is simply way to booring to continue it singlehandledly, and thereby I propose a merge asap. Hopefully it will improve the article (I believe it will). Flamarande 14:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a good picture but it's in a bad place in the article. I'm going to just remove it for now and can someone elese put it somewhere elese in the article: [[Image:Statue-Augustus.jpg|left|thumb|200px|Octavian, widely known as [[Augustus]], founder of the Roman empire]] -- Scott3 01:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Please do not use the word "Goth." Use either Ostrogoth or Visigoth, as they are two distinct Germanic tribes. Thanks, MedievalScholar 19:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The starting and introductionary paragraphs are bluntly confusing. What is this nonsense of senators being executed and all? I wanted an introduction to What the Roman Empire was (thankfully its still there) and not what happened to senators. If, When and maygbe when I need to know that, I shall visit the area of wikipedia which deals with that areas. Arctic-Editor 16:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
The calculation for the area of the Roman Empire seems terribly precise (and pedantically unecessary!) But was it really the largest of the Classical Empires? What about that of Alexander the Great or, more to the point, the Empire of China? White Guard 02:02, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
You are probably right about the empire of Alexander, though it may be interesting to do a comparison. China, I think, is slightly more problematic. By the time of the Han Dynasty (206BC-220AD) imperial power had extended west to Xinjang, and into the northern parts of Vietnam and Korea. This is a significant area of land and must be equal to-if not greater than-than the maximum extent of the Roman Empire under Trajan? White Guard 02:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
It really should only be land area that is taken into consideration, and I imagine the calculation in this article has been determined on that basis alone. White Guard 04:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The Han Empire was larger. See largest empire of the ancient world. White Guard 02:34, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
The reorganization subpage needs an ample amount of work! So instead of editing the main article, make edits to the reorganization subpage to speed up the process. Also, I suggest breaking the subpage article into different articles - a perfect example of this would be the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season. SGFF 17:47, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
What made the Roman Empire successful enough to establish 250 years of relative peace and stability starting around when Caeser and Augustus where in control?
The Roman Empire was never truely stable. In fact that 250 year period of peace you are refering to, the Pax Romana was the the begining of the end for the Roman Empire. What happened during that period of time was this: the Romans ceased any further major campaigns which ended the flow of plunder money which for every constantly expanding empire is critical, they began to integrate germanic tribes and other northern Europeans into their armies. This inparticular is a key factor for why the empire fell. At the begining of the Roman Republic the armies we loyal to the country and to the government, when the Roman Empire came around the people were begining to become more loyal to the general rather than the goverment.(that is why you see generals walking into Rome, taking over with miltary dominance and then being assassinated later on.) When the Roman Republic was active, which is arguably Rome's climax, the army was mainly Italian soldiors that fought for their country, when the germnas were integrated during the Roman Empire they felt no attachment to the empire and were more dedicated the the man that payed them and led them to victories, the General. This is what truely marks the begining of the end for the Roman Empire.
Cmatos1991
17:20, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Yeah this is true but something I forgot to do yesterday was that I firmly believe that Christianity had a key role in the fall o the empire. If you think about it when Christianity was introduced into Roman culture with it's beliefs of Peace Love and Harmony it could have negativly affected the war-like attitude of the Roman War Machine. Yes I agree that this was the process of transformation. I did not finish what I had fully intended to say yesterday because I had to leave that is why the passage ended so suddenly. Cmatos1991 17:25, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I have just finished this article, but i'm afraid my english is not very good, would someone like to take a look? — Argentino ( talk/ cont.) 19:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be on this page?
Paul W 23/10/06
Hi all...just changed the dates at the top of the article to reflect the standard interpretation; it seems to me that listing the "ancient" Roman Empire as ending is 1453 is problematic at best and, at worst, completely disregards the enormous differences between Byzantium (especially after the mid-7th century) and the old empire. Dppowell 04:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
No you are completely wrong on this. Contemporary historical scholarship recognises that the 'Byzantine Empire' was the continuation of the Roman Empire - that is the Roman Empire itself. I suggest you read the following which will confirm this for you:
Byzantine scholars also asserted their continuity as the Roman Empire. See:
Also look at this list of Roman emperors. If you insist on the date 476 then the article should be renamed the Western Roman Empire Roydosan 15:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Dppowell I haven't proved your point at all. You might also like to read:
Gibbon, E. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: v. 4-6 ISBN: 1857151925
which concludes when? In 476? No. It concludes in 1453. More recent scholarship has stressed the continuation of Rome through the ERE as you will find if you bother to look at the books I cited above. And yes you did dispute that the Byzantine Empire was the continuation of the Roman Empire - you claimed it was a successor state. To be a successor state there would need to be some sort of break between the first state and the succeeding state. Search high and low cause you ain't going to find one. Also it is far from ludicrous to claim that the Roman Empire ended in 1453 because that is what happened. Claiming anything else is nothing but ignorance and a continuation, knowingly or otherwise, of the enlightenment intellectuals prejudice which sought to denigrate and diminish the place of the Byzantine Empire in history. Roydosan 10:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
And you are correct that a lot of historians use the date of 476 as a cut off point for histories of teh Roman Empire. However they invariably state that it continued in the East until 1453. Roydosan 10:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Dppowell, your assertion that because Marcus Aurelius would no longer recognise it the empire can no longer be termed Roman is utterly ridiculous. Are countries supposed to remain in a time warp if they are to keep their names according to your definition? Yes of course it transformed to the extent that it would have been beyond recognition to someone from the first-third centuries AD - but that doesn't mean it wasn't Roman; that's just progress. As for your claims about OR - this just proves your ignorance about the matter. Try reading some books on the subject. Varana, I'm not disputing the use of Byzantine to distinguish between the early and late empires. The terminology is useful and I wasn't arguing against it. My point is that if dates are to be used then 1453 is clearly the only definitive date for the end of the empire. This isn't revisionism but just what almost every book on the subject states - that after the fall of the empire in the west the empire of the east continued for a thousand years. The fact that many people are ignorant of this is no reason to deny it. Encyclopedias should state the facts not confirm people in their mistaken views - especially when the date of 1453 is corroborated by most academic scholars. Roydosan 10:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok well maybe you should actually read the rest of this article and then you will discover that your interpretation is at variance with it as well as with modern scholarship. If all you can do is claim that you have a better knowledge of the subject without offering any evidence in favour of your inaccurate assessment then it seems to me like you've lost the argument. Roydosan 15:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
No I don't think so since I see no good reason not to restore the dates to the beginning of the article. If you can come up with no better argument than you have read and written on the subject without coming up with some good reasons why you are right I fail to see how you have proved your point. Roydosan 16:07, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
What consensus? Two other people commented. Hardly enough for a consensus and you are the one who started this by removing the dates in the first place. If anything they should have been left in place before a consensus was reached. Instead you arbitrarily removed them from the article. Roydosan 16:19, 3 November 2006 (UTC)