I endorse the proposal made by Richardshusr that articles specifically dealing with aspects of the Roman Catholic Church be titled “Roman Catholic Church and x," with term “Roman Catholic Church” appearing at the first mention in the article, and acceptance of the use of the term “Catholic Church” subsequently. My rationale for this position is as follows:
Conclusion: I completely respect the desire of some editors to affirm the unbroken claims of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome. Nobody wants to undermine the Roman Communion's claim to being a Catholic Church, merely to challenge its exclusive proprietary claim to being the Catholic Church, bar others - as though their self-definitions were of no consequence, or were false, or were mistaken or misleading in some way. The reality is that pluralism exists and therefore creates ambiguity. The reality is that there is more than one group that self-identifies as the Catholic Church, a fact recognised even by the Roman Communion by concessions made in its self-designation. Likewise, WP also needs to establish a reasonable way of acknowledging diverse claims and ambiguous definitions, regardless of what individual editors may think of their legitimacy. The title "Roman Catholic Church" represents a compromise position, one that admittedly may not make everyone happy, but one that acknowledges a real, post-Reformation-world situation - namely that there exists a Catholic Church in communion with Rome, and Catholic Churches (as they identify themselves) who are not. There is a problem, but it is easily soluble. The term Roman Catholic Church is unambiguous, it is one understood by everyone, it recognises the existence of other traditions' claims to being Catholic, and it is part of the Roman Communion's own self-identity. As such, it addresses all possible problems and objections, and is a solution which is truly neutral. Fishhead64 01:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been browsing through many articles related to the Catholic Church, and I think some of the mess was produced by an unfortunate choice at the beginning: making a full redirect from [Catholic Church] to [Roman Catholic Church]. Most of the debate seems to focus on challenging/defending the claim that Benedict XVI, or his predecessors, are the true head of the Only Catholic Church; i.e. Peter's Primacy.--- The redirect is a waste of a useful name. Perhaps the simplest solution would be using [Catholic Church] as a disambiguation page, pointing to the several articles under this umbrella. [Early Catholic Church] (when it was assumed it was Catholic by definition), [Roman Catholic Church] (under Benedict XVI), [Eastern Catholic Churches] (under Benedict), [English Catholic Church] (under Elizabeth II), etc.--- Louie 16:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that in most contexts, the term "Catholic Church" can only refer to one entity or group of people, so it's not really ambiguous. Just to name a few possibilities: "CC canon law", "CC liturgy", "CC theology", "CC hierarchy", "CC lay apostolate" all seem clear to me. The only one that might be ambiguous to me is "CC liturgy." However, if some things like "CC liturgy" is ambiguous, how about creating a dab template to go at the top of all CC articles stating that some view the "Catholic Church" in a wider sense, and pointing to article(s) about that?
Also, if "Catholic Church" is ambiguous and considered POV, why are there not similar arguments over at "Unity Church" and "Apostolic Church"? Or at "Orthodox Church"? Those names also seem to make a theological claim that others dispute. But most people accept them as names that have evolved to a identify a theo-ecological niche. The exclusivist claims are disputed, not the identifying name. Gimmetrow 16:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Gimmetrow here. I don't see much ambiguity, though I do see the importance of acknowledging that other denominations claim "catholicity" as an attribute.
Part of the question also seems to be: is there any alternative material. So, for example, if we create article titles of "RCC canon law", "RCC theology" and "RCC hierarchy", is there anything to then say in a "CC canon law" article other than setting it to redirect to "RCC canon law" or simply having a note at "CC canon law" saying, "You're probably looking for CC canon law, but in the mean time, please not that some churches not in union with the pope claim catholicity as an attribute."
That said, if the only way to write articles in relative peace is to name them all RCC and X, I'm willing to, so long as we don't have waste untold keystrokes by using the full "RCC" term every single time we refer to the Church in the body of the article. Brendanhodge 18:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I can see that articles on "Catholicism" seem ambiguous enough to warrant a proper dab page. Why not make an article on the Anglican understanding of "Catholic" and link to that from dab pages at "Catholic", "Catholicism", and "Catholic Church"? RCC articles could use "Catholic" or "Catholic Church" in the article itself, where the first occurance of either term would link to the dab page? I'm sure there's a reason why this wouldn't work, right? Gimmetrow 02:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The forced use of the term "Roman" in every title related to the Catholic Church defies all common sense, which really needs to be the over-riding consideration here. Catholics and most others rarely use the term. Given the hopelessly limited usefulness of the WP search engine, each search lacking the term "Roman" would yield very little. I realize that there are theological disputes here which ought to be and are well documented in several locations, but common sense needs to prevail in titling articles so users can find what they are looking for. Titling for the purpose of satisfying a minority POV is impractical and absurd. Besides, this debate will not be resolved until the titling issue is resolved because a constant parade will of Catholic users will join the fray. This I have seen myself over the past two months. -- Vaquero100 07:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
This should have a simple, logical resolution. There is apparently only one entity that uses "Catholic Church" as its name. The title of the article describing that entity should match its name. Any other entities having similar names should be listed on a disambiguation page. The entry for "Church of Christ" demonstrates this approach. The "Church of Christ" disambiguation page lists other groups that have or have had similar names, and it also links to "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" when defining the theological concept. I don't see why the treatment of the Catholic Church should be inconsistent with that of the Church of Christ. SynKobiety 02:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Howdy. Sorry I haven't been around for a while. After a few weeks on the road, am getting back to the routines...
It seems that a common sense approach to the CC/RCC issue is forming. It is hard to find new things to say on the topic, but the obvious observations here are 1)that there is only one entity which uses CC as its proper name; 2)Most people understand the term, CC, to refer to that entity; 3)There are ways to accommodate the more ambiguous uses of the term, "cc" by reference to a dab page.
CC really should be the name of the current RCC page and there should be no problem with the ancillary pages titled "CC and X."
Good to be back. -- Vaquero100 18:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
For those looking for a background on the terms CC and RCC, check this link from Catholic Answers:
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm.
I ( SynKobiety) believe that it would be instructive to post a section of Wikipedia:Naming conflict here:
Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name.
Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.
Where a name includes geographical directions such as North, East, South or West (in a local language), the full name should be translated into English: hence East Timor, not Timor-Leste; South Ossetia, not Yuzhnaya Osetiya; West Java, not Jawa Barat.
Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Cabindans use the term in a descriptive sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a prescriptive approach, arguing that this usage should not be allowed.
Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide.
In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.
-End of Wikipedia:Naming conflict quote
The Wikipedia guidelines for naming are crystal clear - You are all Maputans who oppose using "Catholic Church" as the name of the article describing "the institution headed by the Bishop of Rome." In this instance, therefore, using the term "Catholic Church" or "Catholics" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Catholics call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Anglican or Orthodox objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Anglican or Orthodox POV. SynKobiety 01:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Fishhead, I don't think anyone deputized you to manhandle this page any more than you already have. It is not for you to decide whether this conversation is over or not. Your determination to shove your POV down our throats is already repugnant as it is. Why don't you at least have the decency to ask what others think about taking it to some other level of authority?
You have held this page hostage. You have your way. What are you protesting? What could possibly be your complaint? I think the hostages ought to decide when, how and where we will take this discussion.-- Vaquero100 04:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, in the real world WP has no authority to change the name of the Catholic Church. So, this debate will not end no matter the level the decision is made. Catholics will not tolerate the injustice of misnaming the Catholic Church. I know you want this to end. But it never will, Fishhead until justice is done. --
Vaquero100
04:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, it is you unwillingness to abide by the opinion of independent third parties on this page that concerns me. You are clearly standing alone in this discussion. No doubt this displeases you. So, rather than take it like we Catholic have had to, you have to appeal to a higher authority. This is all the more ironic given that you were the one to start this discussion which now to you appears so inadequate. -- Vaquero100 15:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Fishhead64, this is a good faith effort to have published Wikipedia naming conventions applied to this article. Your primary objection has been that "Catholic Church" is ambiguous. The conventions don't specify that titles be 100% free of ambiguity (if anything truly could be), but specify that article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize and that when naming an article about specific groups we should always use the terminology which those individuals or organizations use. "Catholic Church" best meets this standard as the title for the article describing the "institution headed by the Bishop of Rome." SynKobiety 18:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This article and a lot of the Catholic content of the Wikipedia is being controlled by editors critical of the Catholic Church and in particular committed to the principles that the Catholic Church cannot be permitted to self-identify, and that critics of the Catholic Church get to determine what is written to identify, define, and describe the Catholic Church. No other religion, or for that matter, organization, has it own self-identification suppressed in the Wikipedia. patsw 02:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur with your statement, Patsw. Anti-Catholicism like any form of bigotry is fundamentally irrational and therefore it's adherents like "Archie Bunker" are often blind to it. Anglicans and their Baptist progeny are the worst violators of all human decency and intellectual integrity. Anglicans who play "protestant" to Protestants and "catholic" to Catholics need to learn the scripture "one cannot serve two masters." This is particularly true at this moment when Anglo-Catholics practice their empty triumphalism while practicing gay bishops ignore the very tradition they profess to embody, thus leading their church down the toilet.
How ironic to have Episcopalians on WP protest how catholic they are and how important the rosary is to them while their church drifts further and further from anything resembling the gospel and the historic church.-- Vaquero100 04:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Any perceptions I have of the Anglican Communion are perceptions born of facts. U2charist? yikes! and as it turns out this was not the only one, this has actually become a common event repeated throughout the country. What a sham! and what a shame.-- Vaquero100 15:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
"Methinks" your more-Catholic-than-the-Pope protestations are the modern electronic equivalent of "rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vaquero100 ( talk • contribs)
I have made the following apology on the Anglicanism Talk Page. It is worth repeating on this page:
I would like to offer my apologies to the Anglicans on WP and especially those who edit this page. I realize that I have let my frustration boil over into some outrageous verbal vengence on this page in recent weeks. This was clearly out of order. I regret the offenses I have given.
I might add here that I did go to confession today, and am now in much better spirits. Accordingly, I have made the resolve to "amend my life" as the Act of Contrition states and this applies to WP.
Have a good night. -- Vaquero100 02:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd urge all editors to please wait for a conclusion to be made before editing articles regarding this naming controversy. This is specifically addressing Vaquero100 ( talk · contribs) who has sidestepped this process to purge the word "Roman" from wikilinks and article titles. If the consensus is reached that RCC is the name wikipedia should use, then we need to use that across the board. The the consensus is reached that CC is the name to be used, then we use that across the board. If we reach some compromise then we use both under the provisions we set forth. But until we reach a decision, it seems to me to be rogue editing to avoid this discussion and change articles to whatever naming convesion we personally favor. Maybe I was too bold in doing this, but I urge everyone to revert any edits of this nature that are going on while an open discussion is still underway. Everyone, please respect the current policy, and this process (which has yet to reach a consensus).-- Andrew c 18:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Since Fishhead64's ambiquity objection was addressed almost three weeks ago, there has been no discussion. Can we assume assent? SynKobiety 18:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe it was addressed, merely the same arguments were rehearsed. The existence of such pages as Catholic, Catholic Church (disambiguation), One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and Catholicism - not to mention this and many parallel discussions on naming - provide ample evidence of the ambiguity of the term "Catholic Church." There has never been an articulation of why "Roman Catholic" is misleading or offensive - indeed, it is a common term, used non-pejoratively, to describe only one entity: The Communion under the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. So, no, we cannot assume assent, especially given the discussion in Wikipedia:Categories for deletion [1], and on the administrators' noticeboard [2] and [3] Fishhead64 01:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Fishhead64, if you don't believe that your objections have been addressed then please describe how the counter-arguments fall short. It is evasive of you to lamely state that they were "merely the same arguments." This talk page was created by you to be the forum to discuss this issue. I am trying to do that. If you can't produce verifiable reasons to support your position that are relevant to Wikipedia naming conventions, then concede the point. Otherwise, you are just POV pushing. If you can only support your position by pointing to Wikipedia articles which you have edited then you are using a circular argument. Keep in mind that in resolving ambiguity through assessing common usage, we are advised to 'Exclude "Wikipedia" from the search.' SynKobiety 04:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
It's often difficult to maintain a moderate position in the presence of extremes attempting to draw one way or another. This is evident in the problems of naming the Church headed by the bishop of Rome. Many Wikipedia articles refer to that Church as the Roman Catholic Church, while others refer to it as the Catholic Church. Current Wikipedia practice admits both names. Nevertheless, there are a small number of editors seeking to rename "Catholic Church" articles to "Roman Catholic Church" and another small number of editors seeking to rename "Roman Catholic Church" articles to "Catholic Church." On the contrary, the status quo should be maintained. Articles should keep whatever title they have had historically, and this for two main reasons. First, it reflects a profound balance in regard to NPOV policy. Second, renaming articles is disruptive to productive editing.
The names "Catholic Church" and "Roman Catholic Church" both reflect a theological opinion, and exclusive use of either effectively supports a POV. Thus, a mixed use is the most appropriate, and also reflects the current Wikipedia practice. For instance, the "main" article is at Roman Catholic Church, however the space at Catholic Church is a redirect. This situation, determined by vote and reflecting consensus, is an amazing balance. Neither term is used exclusively, and there is something for both sides to like and dislike. There are many other subarticles using "Roman Catholic Church" in the title, and others using "Catholic Church". WikiProject Catholicism at one time proposed a category tree structure that included both terms. [5] We have articles at Canon law (Catholic Church) and Catholic Church hierarchy, and others at History of the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholicism by country. I'm not really sure what Vaquero and SynKobiety want, but if it involves moving the main article to Catholic Church that seems to upset the profound balance the community has developed. Vaquero should not be doing page moves and category blanking. On the other hand, attempts to rename existing articles to include "Roman" are likewise upsetting that delicate balance. [6] [7] [8] [9] Both must stop.
Article renames are also disruptive to wikipedia. These articles are linked from other articles, and when they are renamed, some redirects become double redirects. When double redirects do not function properly they must be fixed, taking time away productive editing. Thus, any rename should be done with care. According to an old axiom of law, a change in law is an evil, and the new law must be justified as proportionately better than the disruption of a change. When an arguably arbitrary decision has been made already about the naming of some article, unless there is a substantial basis for changing it, the decision should be accepted. [10]
This naming dispute has taken time away from other tasks I would prefer to do. I would like a resolution. Gimmetrow 03:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Cardinal (catholicism) has existed for nearly 4 years, and I can find no evidence that anyone has ever argued for its renaming. If you are now saying it should be renamed, you should explain coherently why numerous Wiki editors have not renamed it in all this time. Likewise, the current situation at Roman Catholic Church had the input of many editors and reflects a wide consensus; that is it disliked about equally by both extremes is a good sign it is the correct solution. If you really want a formal naming convention, the best thing to do is not to create some new system radically different than current wikipedia practice. Rather, formalize that current practice so that only limited exceptions need to be changed. Gimmetrow 21:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Believe me if you tried to touch Anglicanism the way Anglicans abuse the CC page, you'd be blocked. Vaquero100 05:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
"The dog-in-the manger policy of so many Anglicans who cannot take the name of Catholics for themselves, because popular usage has never sanctioned it as such, but who on the other hand will not concede it to the members of the Church of Rome...."
Quote from Administrator George's Talkpage follows:
I read you think "Catholic Church" is nasty. George, you are clearly new to this debate and your British and Anglican background suggest that you may be unfamiliar with the nomenclature of the Catholic Church as well as the thoroughly established use of "Catholic Church" in reference to those in communion with Rome. Please see this page for a more thorough treatment of the subject matter: CC vs. RCC Vaquero100 17:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
End Quote.
WP is in a truly pathetic state. Fishhead does not need to and can cannot be forced to engage with the intellect in this tyranny of the majority. Dont expect him or anyone else to be anything but smug and condesceding.
WP lacks the courage to follow its own convictions in this case. This should be a real source of embarassment.
Vaquero100 05:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
What about:
Just to name a few? Can one reasonably argue that these are entirely unambiguous? As they currently are named, there seems to be no compelling reason why an editor could not begin including information about other denominations in the Catholic tradition. Fishhead64 00:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
In fairness, I should point out that I have tagged some of the above articles and categories as requested moves in an effort to broaden the discussion (and - to be honest - hopefully to retitle these to less ambiguous names). I will post this information on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglicanism talk page in effort invite discussion, and would invite my Roman Catholic friends to do the same at Wikipedia: WikiProject Catholicism. I don't know that this will necessarily result in consensus, but it might result in greater clarity. Fishhead64 05:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I am new to Wikipedia and have been watching this conversation for a few weeks. As I am just finding my way around, what is the process for moving these articles? Can somebody help me? -- Vita Dulcedo et Spes Nostra 20:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, SynKobiety. I will look into these in a minute...
Andrew c, I am pretty new here, but I have been reading up on this controversy. I don't understand how you can blank the Catholic devotions article and at the same time say no one should change article names because there is no consensus. That strikes me as a bit underhanded. And you only did this a couple of days ago. Can we talk about this? I would think that article should be restored until a consensus is reached, just as you are saying for the other articles. -- Vita Dulcedo et Spes Nostra 05:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Vita Dulcedo et Spes Nostra ( talk · contribs) repeated the same comment to all the move proposal pages (which I think shouldn't have been proposed in the middle of a discussion because it takes the debate to half a dozen different articles instead of here). Anyway, here is the comment:
And I'd like to reply here. First of all, anecdotal evidence that RCC is a slur in Ukraine is a little problematic due to the language differences and the nature of anecdotal evidence (content in wikipedia needs to be WP:V with WP:RS). The next issue is that os self identification. If more than one church self identifies as The Catholic Church, wikipedia policy states disambiguation. So in this case, we'd need to disambiguate the pages with something like Catholic Church (Communion with Rome), instead of using the much more common use of RCC. The whole issue here is IF there are churches besides the RCC that self identify as The Catholic Church. Sure, if you were to walk up to the average person here in Richmond, Virginia and ask them who the Catholic Church was, they'd probably all refer to the RCC. It is this level of recognition that I believe motivates editors to ignore disambiguation issues here (if everyone knows what you are talking about, why disambiguate?). On the other hand, WP:BIAS and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion come into play. To make matters worse, the word catholic has a number of meanings, and some Christians are offended that a lower case meaning of the word is being 'stolen' (in their opinions) by the capital use of the word. I personally don't care much about the theological issues involved here, although a number of other editors have voiced concerns in this matter. It boils down to how can we refer to this Church in a manner that avoids bias and is clear, not just to the majority of people living in Richmond, Virginia, but also to individuals in churches that self identify as The Catholic Church who aren't part of the RCC. I'm not sure there is an answer to this issue. A compromise is probably the best route (as Fishhead64 has proposed months ago). -- Andrew c 14:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to summarize my main points:
On articles dealing with doctrines or beliefs, I think using RCC would work. An EC reading the article Roman Catholic sacraments or Roman Catholic bishop could possibly view it as content pertaining to a separate Church that they happen to agree with. There may be some EC content but for these topics involves minor differences like naming (eg. eparchy/diocese). On the other hand, in articles related to jurisdiction or church structure, the EC position is more critical. ECs would not consider EC patriarchs or episcopate part of the RCC hierarchy (except perhaps for EC cardinals) but rather part of the CC hierarchy. Since there is no juridical "Catholic Church" in the Anglican sense, I don't see how it can be ambiguous to use CC in the context of hierarchy. On the other hand, where the RCC and ECs differ significantly, articles should probably be separate, eg, "Eastern Catholic vestments" and "Roman Catholic vestments", with each page linked on the other. Finally, there are some situations where an article uses the term "Catholic" in a fairly general sense, like Catholic spirituality or Catholic liturgy - it would seem an inclusive sense would work here. So what does this give:
I don't expect this is the end product, but how would something like this sound? Gimmetrow 15:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Gimmetrow, I really like how you've focused on some solid solutions here. I think we're definitely beating a dead horse on the "bias" issue; someone is always going to be offended no matter what we do! Note again from Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Ambiguity_persists:
Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
As for the Google search recommendation in the naming conflict guideline, I think SynK's Yahoo search study is a good indication of "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize":
Applying
catholic -"roman catholic" -"orthodox catholic" -"old catholic" -"anglican catholic" -wikipedia
as the search term in Yahoo will return uses of the word "Catholic" without common qualifiers. When reviewing these unqualified uses of "Catholic", you would have to drill down into the list past the 970th place to find the first use of "Catholic" to refer to anything other than "institution headed by the Bishop of Rome."
General name quibbling aside, in order to make some progress on this issue, we should probably list as many CC/RCC articles as possible (categorized in the three or four categories you list above) and then get a vote for each one. While this is tedious, I think it's the only way to meet the goal of this proposal. It looks like we can't make a blanket statement that all CC pages should exclude "Roman" since that term is useful in some cases, particularly when Church hierarchy is concerned. -- J. J. 17:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
No one asserted here in good faith, that there is more than one church that self-identifies as the Catholic Church. The assertions made here are that other churches self-identify with some other proper name and indicate they are "part of" the Catholic Church (in caps)(Catholic in character), or "a" catholic church (in lower case), among several(instance of catholic), or both.
Of course, there are spurious claims on the Internet that there is no such thing as the Catholic Church or that there are several Catholic Church's with equally valid claims to that as a singular proper name. There is no ambiguity, at least in the sense the Wikipedia recognizes, there is one and only one church that self-identifes as the Catholic Church and all major reference works recognize this. patsw 14:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
In my experience, when people say "Catholic Church", no one – and I mean no one – is talking about Church of England. History books on the reformation in England have no difficulty with "Catholic Church" vs. "Church of England". Go to Dublin, walk into St. Patrick's, and ask anyone there if the church is "Catholic". The answers is "No, go to St. Mary's / Whitefriar, this is Church of Ireland." If a stranger in town asks where the "Catholic Church" is, will anyone point to St. George's Episcopal? No, I think not. If we are attempting to be clear, we should use words as they are actually used, imho, - Lostcaesar 06:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm Catholic, a KofC member, a former liturgy committee member, and an occasional choirboy, and I firmly believe that this article should remain with the current title to avoid any ambiguity and to avoid giving offense to others who consider themselves Catholic. -- Sar e kOfVulcan 06:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Quoting myself from another page on the same topic:
I give you the following quote by the Holy Father. [13]
If the pope can refer to "Roman Catholics" for clarity, so can we.-- Sar e kOfVulcan 06:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
So I don't know what happened to not editing article names until this discussion was over, but Consecrated life in the Roman Catholic Church has been moved back to Consecrated life (Catholic Church) (look at the history, it has gone back and forth a number of times, once by me.. opps :P) Anyway, the bigger question is I came across Religious life. Look where that term redirects to. I was unaware that the Catholic Church had a monopolgy on the term "religious life". It seems to me that there is a more global page that that term should redirect to, but I was wondering if anyone watching this page could chime in. Any thoughts?-- Andrew c 06:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Fishhead for finding a good page for religious life's redirect. As for the pointing of fingers. I honestly do not care who did what, when. I admit, before I came to this discussion a few weeks ago, I was reverting moves left and right. I since decided that it amounts to edit warring due to the lack of consensus here. I came here and urged EVERYONE (including YOU), to please stop making edits regarding the name. So we have some articles that are in one style, and some articles that are in another style. Big deal, we can work that out after this discussion is closed. However, editing DURING the discussion seems to be a spit in the face of this consensus process (and yes, we are all getting impatient because it has dragged on for months and months). But seriously, I am not going to make and edits regarding the name of articles, can we all agree to stop for the time being?-- Andrew c 20:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
As editors know, this question has been a matter of extensive, sometimes heated debate over a period of some six months. It is consuming a good deal of my editorial time and energy, and I'm sure that of other users as well. It is also leading to apparent ill-will between certain editors. We have tried requests for comment and mediation during this period, and sometimes have been tantalizingly close to resolution. Alas, the debate continues to be unresolved. I want to propose that we nominate this dispute for arbitration. Thoughts? Fishhead64 19:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The dispute is that some editors (including myself) support the self-identification' of the Catholic Church and some editors oppose such self-identification. By "Catholic Church" I specifically mean the one church that identifies itself with this proper name and not those churches who self-identify with another proper name, and claim a catholic character or a connection to the Catholic Church. patsw 21:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I realize that Fishhead want to end this debate. He is tired of it. I am too, but I will not tire of defending was is just. Patsw, has said it well. WP is clear about favoring the self naming of an institution. Resistance to application of this policy is a matter of deeply ingrained bias cultivated over centuries. No other entity, neither the English crown, nor the Archbishop of Canterbury, nor WP has the authority to change the name of the Catholic Church. The often cited OED was compiled in Oxford at the height of the Oxford Movement and has a deeply ingrained bias as does the Encyclopedia Britannica. The single source of credible and verifiable evidence for the proper name of the Catholic Church is the official and non-diplomatic documents of the Holy See. To ignore this is do a grave injustice and is a profoundly anti-Catholic act as WP singles out just this one instution for complete disregard of its self identity. Short of this recognition, no WP process will satisfy the demand for justice and this issue will not die. So, buck up, Fishhead, if you are utterly committed to renaming of the Catholic Church and erradicating its name on WP, be prepared to duke it out for as long as you edit WP. Catholics have long memories of Anglican oppression. IRELAND, QUEBEC, ELIZABETH, JAMES, ST. JOHN FISHER, ST. THOMAS MORE etc. Quit the bloodshed and we will have peace. Vaquero100 02:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I support using the full name 'Roman Catholic Church' to distinguish this body from others that either call themselves the 'Catholic Church' or use 'Catholic Church' as part of their name. Examples include the Orthodox Catholic Church of America, Apostolic Catholic Orthodox Church, and the Holy Catholic Church (Anglican Rite). There's no question that the Roman Catholic Church calls itself Catholic. So do other churches. It should not be taken as insult or some sort of anti-papist slur, just as a more precise identification. In a similar vein, many people talk about the Methodist Church when they really mean the United Methodist Church, which is by far the largest of more than 40 methodist denominations. I support using the full name of the United Methodist Church for the same reason. Wesley 17:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church in the glossary defines Catholic Church
Catholic Church The Church established by Christ on the foundation of the Apostles, possessing the fullness of the means of salvation which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. [18]
Also from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Does Fishhead64 believe this defines her Communion? - SynKobiety 13:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Is Fishhead a girl errr woman? Figures.
Vaquero100
05:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. "Dominus Jesus" On the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church
This debate seems to be getting hung up on self-identification. However, self-identification is not part of the primary standard for Wikipedia naming. The principal rule for naming is "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Common recognisability, lack of ambiguity, ease of linking; not self-identification. Other policies that may be relevant are the three principal content-guiding policies, Neutral Point of View, Verifiability and No Original Research; and the guidelines on Naming Conflicts. I can't help feeling that this debate would be far more productive concentrating on the things actually required by policy, rather than on this question of self-identification which seems of dubious relevance. TSP 15:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The internal/external document argument is completely bogus. Every document we can quote is a PUBLIC document. Internal documents are kept in the Vatican archives! Documents addressed to other Churches or representatives of other churches are diplomatic discourse. The only authoritative body of documents we have to go on are Conciliar documents, the CCC, encyclicals, motu proprio documents and apostolic constitutions.
The names of individual Latin Rite Catholic parishes can clearly include "Roman" in their name because that is a reference to the Western Church which is what they are part of. However, when talking about the entire Catholic Church, Roman is inappropriate because Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are Catholic but not Roman. Vaquero100 23:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew c, I apologize for that last outburst but he is a known Catholic-bater AND and administrator! Anyway, I am not aware of a Church that calls itself the "Catholic Church" other that this one. Linguistically, it would be almost impossible to accomplish as the Catholic Church really is everywhere and those who would be most motivated to call themselves thus would always want to make a distinction because they usually have a beef with the CC. The closes I know of is a very small sect, the True Catholic Church, which ironically has no problem on WP for having a POV name.
To answer your other question, I would have no problem with the title The Catholic Church, but others might. That sounds to me even more excusivist. But if this distinction without a difference is helpful to some, I am willing to make that compromise. Vaquero100 03:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The usage, The Catholic Church, is discouraged at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name) - SynKobiety 14:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
TSP, I hate to tell you this but you did not read far enough down the page. Please look at this section: WP:NCON#Dealing_with_self-identifying_terms. WP is very, very clear that the preferred name is to be used for self-identifying entities. It is also clear that the NPOV policy is contextualized in these cases. WP conventions indicate that it is not POV to "report" self identifying entities by their preferred name regardless of how others feel about that name.
TSP, you have been away for a long time. It is good to see you back. I've done a lot of research on this question from the point of view of WP policy and conventions. It is all written up here: CC vs. RCC. You might want to look it over.
Andrew c, for those familiar with Vatican documents several points are clear in regard to your message above. "Why on earth do they use the term "Roman" in all those documents." I'll forgive the "they" in your comments. First, compared to the enormous volumes of documents published by the Holy See, these several mentions are infinitessimally few. Furthermore, all of these instances are examples of diplomatic messages and communiqués which employ a very defferential language in reference to the adressees. The Holy See has a very elaborate hierarchy of communications with explicit levels of authority. Diplomatic messages are of the lowest level of authority and are considered virtually worthless for determining doctrine or teaching or anything official. On the contrary, those documents of the highest authority are Ecumenical Council, Motu Proprio, Encyclical and Apostolic Constitution documents. As you will see if you look over CC vs. RCC, there have been only five references to "Roman Catholic Church" in all the Church's most authoritative documents of the last 250 years. That is longer than the US has been a nation! The last occurance was 56 years ago. Looking at Consiliar documents alone, which are the highest form of teaching in the Catholic Church, there is not one instance of such wording in 2000 years of history and 21 ecumenical councils. That to me is very convincing. I have asked you many times before to look over that page of arguments and you continue to come up with arguments and questions which are clearly addressed there. Would you please take a couple of minutes and look it over? Compared to all the time you have put into this issue already, it would not take long to read it. This might save us all a lot of ink.
And, Fishhead, yikes. The Anglican idea of "Catholic Church" has no teaching, no canon law, no visible head, no systematic theology. It has a mish-mash of conficting ideas, claims, teachings and organizations, but it is not a real entity. It is an idea without a content. That is why no one except a few Anglican ministers in Britain and an Archbishop of Canterbury ever reference it. If it shows up on Google, it is so far down the list that its obscurity warrents it little more than a mention on WP. WP is intended for the common reader, not the specialist. The common reader would never look up "Catholic Church" to find information on anything but the ancient Catholic Church centered on Rome. You also should take a moment to look over this page: CC vs. RCC because you really dont have an argument. Opinion on WP is beginning to change because the evidence in favor of the Catholic Church's name is utterly and completely overwhelming. Furthermore, it is a serious injustice to single out the Catholic Church as the one entity which WP excepts from its very clear naming policy. To single out one institution in such a way is to reveal a bias which WP cannot afford to harbor. The scant evidence you provide for another use is so isolated and confined in actual use that it is really laughable that anyone would find Catholic Church confusing. Your Church has been working hard for 450 years to force the Catholic Church to change its name. It hasn't happened and it wont happen. And WP policy is to recognize an institution by its own preferred name. Vaquero100 20:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I just did another search that you all might find interesting. I did a search on "Roman" on an online "Catechism of the Catholic Church." The results are
[20]. Every instance of the word Roman was a reference to one of the following:
There was not a single reference in the entire CCC where "Roman" was used to refer to the entire Church, East and West, contered on Rome. It is clear that the emphasis on the dignity of the Eastern Rites forces in Catholic use the term Roman to only refer to the Western Church and not the Catholic Church as a whole. As has been said before many times, "Roman" is not to be applied to the Eastern Catholic Churches whose tradition is centered on Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria, but not Rome. In the eyes of the Catholic Church, Roman refers to the Western Church and communion with Rome does not make a Church "Western" or "Roman."
Now I need to add this to my list of arguments.... Vaquero100 20:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Allow me to quote you back to yourself, Guy:
I wonder which hoary old argument has just been revived? Could it perhaps be the perenial demand by the Papists to move their article from Roman Catholic Church to Catholic Church? I must wander along and have a look - maybe there will be a new argument this time. Yes, yes, I know - the triumph of hope over experience... Just zis Guy you know? 21:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Vaquero100 03:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I still think the best solution that makes both sides give in, is to have the main article stay RCC, and have the first initial link in an article be to the Roman Catholic Church. However, susbsequent usages in an article can use CC all they want, so the word "Roman" is only in the article once. As for article titles, if an article covers byzantine rite or any POV from orthodox, old catholics, etc then it can simply have CC in the title, but if an article does not included these other POVs, it should have RCC in the title. It's not perfect, but hopefully everyone will be willing to compromise in order to end this long process? -- Andrew c 13:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
That is not a compromise. It continues a usage that conflicts with Wikipedia guidelines. The best solution would have the main article named "Catholic Church," with "Roman Catholic Church" redirecting there. The the existing link at the top of the article to Catholic Church (disambiguation) should remain.- SynKobiety 14:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
While Fishhead's mind has not been changed, I think that there is evidence that the concensus of last March (I think it was 17 to7) in favor of "Roman" is now dissipating. The proposal in March was not argued from WP policies but from theological POV which simply allowed the majority to vote their theological POV. As Catholics are the minority among English speakers, the Anglican position carried. This is precisely why WP convenions are written to favor the preference of the named entity so that a minority entity has some protection. Now that the arguments are framed from a WP policy standpoint, the recent votes have moved strongly in favor of CC, not RCC. It is interesting to note that Fishhead has found other interests to work on since those votes have been taken (on Catholic spirituality, Catholic devotions etc.). I used to be afraid of votes because I had seen how they went in March. Fishhead on the other hand wanted to bring things to a vote. But, the tide is changing... Vaquero100 14:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
It has been 10 days since Fishhead has spoken on this topic. I dont know if this is an abdication, but it seems that the only ones speaking for Roman right now are the ones working on a compromise, Gimmetrow and Andrew c. Does it make sense to speak for a position which at this time no one seems interested in advotating?
At this point, I think the CC position has more than answered all the Anglican objections--and more importantly more than demonstrated its case in terms of WP. As much as I respect the attempt at a compromise, it is really is uncalled for and unnecessary from a WP policy perspective. Vaquero100 15:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
There are other (small, schismatic) Catholic groups, such as Old Catholics and the Polish National Catholic Church, as well as Conclavists such as the true Catholic Church and the Palmarian Catholic Church, that are out of communion with Rome. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 21:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I endorse the proposal made by Richardshusr that articles specifically dealing with aspects of the Roman Catholic Church be titled “Roman Catholic Church and x," with term “Roman Catholic Church” appearing at the first mention in the article, and acceptance of the use of the term “Catholic Church” subsequently. My rationale for this position is as follows:
Conclusion: I completely respect the desire of some editors to affirm the unbroken claims of the Catholic Church in communion with Rome. Nobody wants to undermine the Roman Communion's claim to being a Catholic Church, merely to challenge its exclusive proprietary claim to being the Catholic Church, bar others - as though their self-definitions were of no consequence, or were false, or were mistaken or misleading in some way. The reality is that pluralism exists and therefore creates ambiguity. The reality is that there is more than one group that self-identifies as the Catholic Church, a fact recognised even by the Roman Communion by concessions made in its self-designation. Likewise, WP also needs to establish a reasonable way of acknowledging diverse claims and ambiguous definitions, regardless of what individual editors may think of their legitimacy. The title "Roman Catholic Church" represents a compromise position, one that admittedly may not make everyone happy, but one that acknowledges a real, post-Reformation-world situation - namely that there exists a Catholic Church in communion with Rome, and Catholic Churches (as they identify themselves) who are not. There is a problem, but it is easily soluble. The term Roman Catholic Church is unambiguous, it is one understood by everyone, it recognises the existence of other traditions' claims to being Catholic, and it is part of the Roman Communion's own self-identity. As such, it addresses all possible problems and objections, and is a solution which is truly neutral. Fishhead64 01:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I've been browsing through many articles related to the Catholic Church, and I think some of the mess was produced by an unfortunate choice at the beginning: making a full redirect from [Catholic Church] to [Roman Catholic Church]. Most of the debate seems to focus on challenging/defending the claim that Benedict XVI, or his predecessors, are the true head of the Only Catholic Church; i.e. Peter's Primacy.--- The redirect is a waste of a useful name. Perhaps the simplest solution would be using [Catholic Church] as a disambiguation page, pointing to the several articles under this umbrella. [Early Catholic Church] (when it was assumed it was Catholic by definition), [Roman Catholic Church] (under Benedict XVI), [Eastern Catholic Churches] (under Benedict), [English Catholic Church] (under Elizabeth II), etc.--- Louie 16:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems to me that in most contexts, the term "Catholic Church" can only refer to one entity or group of people, so it's not really ambiguous. Just to name a few possibilities: "CC canon law", "CC liturgy", "CC theology", "CC hierarchy", "CC lay apostolate" all seem clear to me. The only one that might be ambiguous to me is "CC liturgy." However, if some things like "CC liturgy" is ambiguous, how about creating a dab template to go at the top of all CC articles stating that some view the "Catholic Church" in a wider sense, and pointing to article(s) about that?
Also, if "Catholic Church" is ambiguous and considered POV, why are there not similar arguments over at "Unity Church" and "Apostolic Church"? Or at "Orthodox Church"? Those names also seem to make a theological claim that others dispute. But most people accept them as names that have evolved to a identify a theo-ecological niche. The exclusivist claims are disputed, not the identifying name. Gimmetrow 16:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Gimmetrow here. I don't see much ambiguity, though I do see the importance of acknowledging that other denominations claim "catholicity" as an attribute.
Part of the question also seems to be: is there any alternative material. So, for example, if we create article titles of "RCC canon law", "RCC theology" and "RCC hierarchy", is there anything to then say in a "CC canon law" article other than setting it to redirect to "RCC canon law" or simply having a note at "CC canon law" saying, "You're probably looking for CC canon law, but in the mean time, please not that some churches not in union with the pope claim catholicity as an attribute."
That said, if the only way to write articles in relative peace is to name them all RCC and X, I'm willing to, so long as we don't have waste untold keystrokes by using the full "RCC" term every single time we refer to the Church in the body of the article. Brendanhodge 18:16, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I can see that articles on "Catholicism" seem ambiguous enough to warrant a proper dab page. Why not make an article on the Anglican understanding of "Catholic" and link to that from dab pages at "Catholic", "Catholicism", and "Catholic Church"? RCC articles could use "Catholic" or "Catholic Church" in the article itself, where the first occurance of either term would link to the dab page? I'm sure there's a reason why this wouldn't work, right? Gimmetrow 02:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The forced use of the term "Roman" in every title related to the Catholic Church defies all common sense, which really needs to be the over-riding consideration here. Catholics and most others rarely use the term. Given the hopelessly limited usefulness of the WP search engine, each search lacking the term "Roman" would yield very little. I realize that there are theological disputes here which ought to be and are well documented in several locations, but common sense needs to prevail in titling articles so users can find what they are looking for. Titling for the purpose of satisfying a minority POV is impractical and absurd. Besides, this debate will not be resolved until the titling issue is resolved because a constant parade will of Catholic users will join the fray. This I have seen myself over the past two months. -- Vaquero100 07:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
This should have a simple, logical resolution. There is apparently only one entity that uses "Catholic Church" as its name. The title of the article describing that entity should match its name. Any other entities having similar names should be listed on a disambiguation page. The entry for "Church of Christ" demonstrates this approach. The "Church of Christ" disambiguation page lists other groups that have or have had similar names, and it also links to "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" when defining the theological concept. I don't see why the treatment of the Catholic Church should be inconsistent with that of the Church of Christ. SynKobiety 02:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
Howdy. Sorry I haven't been around for a while. After a few weeks on the road, am getting back to the routines...
It seems that a common sense approach to the CC/RCC issue is forming. It is hard to find new things to say on the topic, but the obvious observations here are 1)that there is only one entity which uses CC as its proper name; 2)Most people understand the term, CC, to refer to that entity; 3)There are ways to accommodate the more ambiguous uses of the term, "cc" by reference to a dab page.
CC really should be the name of the current RCC page and there should be no problem with the ancillary pages titled "CC and X."
Good to be back. -- Vaquero100 18:57, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
For those looking for a background on the terms CC and RCC, check this link from Catholic Answers:
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb3.htm.
I ( SynKobiety) believe that it would be instructive to post a section of Wikipedia:Naming conflict here:
Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. Wikipedia does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name.
Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.
Where a name includes geographical directions such as North, East, South or West (in a local language), the full name should be translated into English: hence East Timor, not Timor-Leste; South Ossetia, not Yuzhnaya Osetiya; West Java, not Jawa Barat.
Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Cabindans use the term in a descriptive sense: that is what they call themselves. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term. They take a prescriptive approach, arguing that this usage should not be allowed.
Wikipedia should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Wikipedia can, or should, decide.
In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.
-End of Wikipedia:Naming conflict quote
The Wikipedia guidelines for naming are crystal clear - You are all Maputans who oppose using "Catholic Church" as the name of the article describing "the institution headed by the Bishop of Rome." In this instance, therefore, using the term "Catholic Church" or "Catholics" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Catholics call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Anglican or Orthodox objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Anglican or Orthodox POV. SynKobiety 01:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Fishhead, I don't think anyone deputized you to manhandle this page any more than you already have. It is not for you to decide whether this conversation is over or not. Your determination to shove your POV down our throats is already repugnant as it is. Why don't you at least have the decency to ask what others think about taking it to some other level of authority?
You have held this page hostage. You have your way. What are you protesting? What could possibly be your complaint? I think the hostages ought to decide when, how and where we will take this discussion.-- Vaquero100 04:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore, in the real world WP has no authority to change the name of the Catholic Church. So, this debate will not end no matter the level the decision is made. Catholics will not tolerate the injustice of misnaming the Catholic Church. I know you want this to end. But it never will, Fishhead until justice is done. --
Vaquero100
04:55, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
On the contrary, it is you unwillingness to abide by the opinion of independent third parties on this page that concerns me. You are clearly standing alone in this discussion. No doubt this displeases you. So, rather than take it like we Catholic have had to, you have to appeal to a higher authority. This is all the more ironic given that you were the one to start this discussion which now to you appears so inadequate. -- Vaquero100 15:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Fishhead64, this is a good faith effort to have published Wikipedia naming conventions applied to this article. Your primary objection has been that "Catholic Church" is ambiguous. The conventions don't specify that titles be 100% free of ambiguity (if anything truly could be), but specify that article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize and that when naming an article about specific groups we should always use the terminology which those individuals or organizations use. "Catholic Church" best meets this standard as the title for the article describing the "institution headed by the Bishop of Rome." SynKobiety 18:16, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
This article and a lot of the Catholic content of the Wikipedia is being controlled by editors critical of the Catholic Church and in particular committed to the principles that the Catholic Church cannot be permitted to self-identify, and that critics of the Catholic Church get to determine what is written to identify, define, and describe the Catholic Church. No other religion, or for that matter, organization, has it own self-identification suppressed in the Wikipedia. patsw 02:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur with your statement, Patsw. Anti-Catholicism like any form of bigotry is fundamentally irrational and therefore it's adherents like "Archie Bunker" are often blind to it. Anglicans and their Baptist progeny are the worst violators of all human decency and intellectual integrity. Anglicans who play "protestant" to Protestants and "catholic" to Catholics need to learn the scripture "one cannot serve two masters." This is particularly true at this moment when Anglo-Catholics practice their empty triumphalism while practicing gay bishops ignore the very tradition they profess to embody, thus leading their church down the toilet.
How ironic to have Episcopalians on WP protest how catholic they are and how important the rosary is to them while their church drifts further and further from anything resembling the gospel and the historic church.-- Vaquero100 04:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Any perceptions I have of the Anglican Communion are perceptions born of facts. U2charist? yikes! and as it turns out this was not the only one, this has actually become a common event repeated throughout the country. What a sham! and what a shame.-- Vaquero100 15:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
"Methinks" your more-Catholic-than-the-Pope protestations are the modern electronic equivalent of "rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vaquero100 ( talk • contribs)
I have made the following apology on the Anglicanism Talk Page. It is worth repeating on this page:
I would like to offer my apologies to the Anglicans on WP and especially those who edit this page. I realize that I have let my frustration boil over into some outrageous verbal vengence on this page in recent weeks. This was clearly out of order. I regret the offenses I have given.
I might add here that I did go to confession today, and am now in much better spirits. Accordingly, I have made the resolve to "amend my life" as the Act of Contrition states and this applies to WP.
Have a good night. -- Vaquero100 02:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd urge all editors to please wait for a conclusion to be made before editing articles regarding this naming controversy. This is specifically addressing Vaquero100 ( talk · contribs) who has sidestepped this process to purge the word "Roman" from wikilinks and article titles. If the consensus is reached that RCC is the name wikipedia should use, then we need to use that across the board. The the consensus is reached that CC is the name to be used, then we use that across the board. If we reach some compromise then we use both under the provisions we set forth. But until we reach a decision, it seems to me to be rogue editing to avoid this discussion and change articles to whatever naming convesion we personally favor. Maybe I was too bold in doing this, but I urge everyone to revert any edits of this nature that are going on while an open discussion is still underway. Everyone, please respect the current policy, and this process (which has yet to reach a consensus).-- Andrew c 18:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
Since Fishhead64's ambiquity objection was addressed almost three weeks ago, there has been no discussion. Can we assume assent? SynKobiety 18:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe it was addressed, merely the same arguments were rehearsed. The existence of such pages as Catholic, Catholic Church (disambiguation), One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and Catholicism - not to mention this and many parallel discussions on naming - provide ample evidence of the ambiguity of the term "Catholic Church." There has never been an articulation of why "Roman Catholic" is misleading or offensive - indeed, it is a common term, used non-pejoratively, to describe only one entity: The Communion under the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. So, no, we cannot assume assent, especially given the discussion in Wikipedia:Categories for deletion [1], and on the administrators' noticeboard [2] and [3] Fishhead64 01:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Fishhead64, if you don't believe that your objections have been addressed then please describe how the counter-arguments fall short. It is evasive of you to lamely state that they were "merely the same arguments." This talk page was created by you to be the forum to discuss this issue. I am trying to do that. If you can't produce verifiable reasons to support your position that are relevant to Wikipedia naming conventions, then concede the point. Otherwise, you are just POV pushing. If you can only support your position by pointing to Wikipedia articles which you have edited then you are using a circular argument. Keep in mind that in resolving ambiguity through assessing common usage, we are advised to 'Exclude "Wikipedia" from the search.' SynKobiety 04:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
It's often difficult to maintain a moderate position in the presence of extremes attempting to draw one way or another. This is evident in the problems of naming the Church headed by the bishop of Rome. Many Wikipedia articles refer to that Church as the Roman Catholic Church, while others refer to it as the Catholic Church. Current Wikipedia practice admits both names. Nevertheless, there are a small number of editors seeking to rename "Catholic Church" articles to "Roman Catholic Church" and another small number of editors seeking to rename "Roman Catholic Church" articles to "Catholic Church." On the contrary, the status quo should be maintained. Articles should keep whatever title they have had historically, and this for two main reasons. First, it reflects a profound balance in regard to NPOV policy. Second, renaming articles is disruptive to productive editing.
The names "Catholic Church" and "Roman Catholic Church" both reflect a theological opinion, and exclusive use of either effectively supports a POV. Thus, a mixed use is the most appropriate, and also reflects the current Wikipedia practice. For instance, the "main" article is at Roman Catholic Church, however the space at Catholic Church is a redirect. This situation, determined by vote and reflecting consensus, is an amazing balance. Neither term is used exclusively, and there is something for both sides to like and dislike. There are many other subarticles using "Roman Catholic Church" in the title, and others using "Catholic Church". WikiProject Catholicism at one time proposed a category tree structure that included both terms. [5] We have articles at Canon law (Catholic Church) and Catholic Church hierarchy, and others at History of the Roman Catholic Church and Roman Catholicism by country. I'm not really sure what Vaquero and SynKobiety want, but if it involves moving the main article to Catholic Church that seems to upset the profound balance the community has developed. Vaquero should not be doing page moves and category blanking. On the other hand, attempts to rename existing articles to include "Roman" are likewise upsetting that delicate balance. [6] [7] [8] [9] Both must stop.
Article renames are also disruptive to wikipedia. These articles are linked from other articles, and when they are renamed, some redirects become double redirects. When double redirects do not function properly they must be fixed, taking time away productive editing. Thus, any rename should be done with care. According to an old axiom of law, a change in law is an evil, and the new law must be justified as proportionately better than the disruption of a change. When an arguably arbitrary decision has been made already about the naming of some article, unless there is a substantial basis for changing it, the decision should be accepted. [10]
This naming dispute has taken time away from other tasks I would prefer to do. I would like a resolution. Gimmetrow 03:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Cardinal (catholicism) has existed for nearly 4 years, and I can find no evidence that anyone has ever argued for its renaming. If you are now saying it should be renamed, you should explain coherently why numerous Wiki editors have not renamed it in all this time. Likewise, the current situation at Roman Catholic Church had the input of many editors and reflects a wide consensus; that is it disliked about equally by both extremes is a good sign it is the correct solution. If you really want a formal naming convention, the best thing to do is not to create some new system radically different than current wikipedia practice. Rather, formalize that current practice so that only limited exceptions need to be changed. Gimmetrow 21:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Believe me if you tried to touch Anglicanism the way Anglicans abuse the CC page, you'd be blocked. Vaquero100 05:45, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
"The dog-in-the manger policy of so many Anglicans who cannot take the name of Catholics for themselves, because popular usage has never sanctioned it as such, but who on the other hand will not concede it to the members of the Church of Rome...."
Quote from Administrator George's Talkpage follows:
I read you think "Catholic Church" is nasty. George, you are clearly new to this debate and your British and Anglican background suggest that you may be unfamiliar with the nomenclature of the Catholic Church as well as the thoroughly established use of "Catholic Church" in reference to those in communion with Rome. Please see this page for a more thorough treatment of the subject matter: CC vs. RCC Vaquero100 17:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
End Quote.
WP is in a truly pathetic state. Fishhead does not need to and can cannot be forced to engage with the intellect in this tyranny of the majority. Dont expect him or anyone else to be anything but smug and condesceding.
WP lacks the courage to follow its own convictions in this case. This should be a real source of embarassment.
Vaquero100 05:36, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
What about:
Just to name a few? Can one reasonably argue that these are entirely unambiguous? As they currently are named, there seems to be no compelling reason why an editor could not begin including information about other denominations in the Catholic tradition. Fishhead64 00:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
In fairness, I should point out that I have tagged some of the above articles and categories as requested moves in an effort to broaden the discussion (and - to be honest - hopefully to retitle these to less ambiguous names). I will post this information on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Anglicanism talk page in effort invite discussion, and would invite my Roman Catholic friends to do the same at Wikipedia: WikiProject Catholicism. I don't know that this will necessarily result in consensus, but it might result in greater clarity. Fishhead64 05:14, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Hello. I am new to Wikipedia and have been watching this conversation for a few weeks. As I am just finding my way around, what is the process for moving these articles? Can somebody help me? -- Vita Dulcedo et Spes Nostra 20:29, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice, SynKobiety. I will look into these in a minute...
Andrew c, I am pretty new here, but I have been reading up on this controversy. I don't understand how you can blank the Catholic devotions article and at the same time say no one should change article names because there is no consensus. That strikes me as a bit underhanded. And you only did this a couple of days ago. Can we talk about this? I would think that article should be restored until a consensus is reached, just as you are saying for the other articles. -- Vita Dulcedo et Spes Nostra 05:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Vita Dulcedo et Spes Nostra ( talk · contribs) repeated the same comment to all the move proposal pages (which I think shouldn't have been proposed in the middle of a discussion because it takes the debate to half a dozen different articles instead of here). Anyway, here is the comment:
And I'd like to reply here. First of all, anecdotal evidence that RCC is a slur in Ukraine is a little problematic due to the language differences and the nature of anecdotal evidence (content in wikipedia needs to be WP:V with WP:RS). The next issue is that os self identification. If more than one church self identifies as The Catholic Church, wikipedia policy states disambiguation. So in this case, we'd need to disambiguate the pages with something like Catholic Church (Communion with Rome), instead of using the much more common use of RCC. The whole issue here is IF there are churches besides the RCC that self identify as The Catholic Church. Sure, if you were to walk up to the average person here in Richmond, Virginia and ask them who the Catholic Church was, they'd probably all refer to the RCC. It is this level of recognition that I believe motivates editors to ignore disambiguation issues here (if everyone knows what you are talking about, why disambiguate?). On the other hand, WP:BIAS and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion come into play. To make matters worse, the word catholic has a number of meanings, and some Christians are offended that a lower case meaning of the word is being 'stolen' (in their opinions) by the capital use of the word. I personally don't care much about the theological issues involved here, although a number of other editors have voiced concerns in this matter. It boils down to how can we refer to this Church in a manner that avoids bias and is clear, not just to the majority of people living in Richmond, Virginia, but also to individuals in churches that self identify as The Catholic Church who aren't part of the RCC. I'm not sure there is an answer to this issue. A compromise is probably the best route (as Fishhead64 has proposed months ago). -- Andrew c 14:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Just to summarize my main points:
On articles dealing with doctrines or beliefs, I think using RCC would work. An EC reading the article Roman Catholic sacraments or Roman Catholic bishop could possibly view it as content pertaining to a separate Church that they happen to agree with. There may be some EC content but for these topics involves minor differences like naming (eg. eparchy/diocese). On the other hand, in articles related to jurisdiction or church structure, the EC position is more critical. ECs would not consider EC patriarchs or episcopate part of the RCC hierarchy (except perhaps for EC cardinals) but rather part of the CC hierarchy. Since there is no juridical "Catholic Church" in the Anglican sense, I don't see how it can be ambiguous to use CC in the context of hierarchy. On the other hand, where the RCC and ECs differ significantly, articles should probably be separate, eg, "Eastern Catholic vestments" and "Roman Catholic vestments", with each page linked on the other. Finally, there are some situations where an article uses the term "Catholic" in a fairly general sense, like Catholic spirituality or Catholic liturgy - it would seem an inclusive sense would work here. So what does this give:
I don't expect this is the end product, but how would something like this sound? Gimmetrow 15:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Gimmetrow, I really like how you've focused on some solid solutions here. I think we're definitely beating a dead horse on the "bias" issue; someone is always going to be offended no matter what we do! Note again from Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#Ambiguity_persists:
Bear in mind that Wikipedia is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.
As for the Google search recommendation in the naming conflict guideline, I think SynK's Yahoo search study is a good indication of "what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize":
Applying
catholic -"roman catholic" -"orthodox catholic" -"old catholic" -"anglican catholic" -wikipedia
as the search term in Yahoo will return uses of the word "Catholic" without common qualifiers. When reviewing these unqualified uses of "Catholic", you would have to drill down into the list past the 970th place to find the first use of "Catholic" to refer to anything other than "institution headed by the Bishop of Rome."
General name quibbling aside, in order to make some progress on this issue, we should probably list as many CC/RCC articles as possible (categorized in the three or four categories you list above) and then get a vote for each one. While this is tedious, I think it's the only way to meet the goal of this proposal. It looks like we can't make a blanket statement that all CC pages should exclude "Roman" since that term is useful in some cases, particularly when Church hierarchy is concerned. -- J. J. 17:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
No one asserted here in good faith, that there is more than one church that self-identifies as the Catholic Church. The assertions made here are that other churches self-identify with some other proper name and indicate they are "part of" the Catholic Church (in caps)(Catholic in character), or "a" catholic church (in lower case), among several(instance of catholic), or both.
Of course, there are spurious claims on the Internet that there is no such thing as the Catholic Church or that there are several Catholic Church's with equally valid claims to that as a singular proper name. There is no ambiguity, at least in the sense the Wikipedia recognizes, there is one and only one church that self-identifes as the Catholic Church and all major reference works recognize this. patsw 14:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
In my experience, when people say "Catholic Church", no one – and I mean no one – is talking about Church of England. History books on the reformation in England have no difficulty with "Catholic Church" vs. "Church of England". Go to Dublin, walk into St. Patrick's, and ask anyone there if the church is "Catholic". The answers is "No, go to St. Mary's / Whitefriar, this is Church of Ireland." If a stranger in town asks where the "Catholic Church" is, will anyone point to St. George's Episcopal? No, I think not. If we are attempting to be clear, we should use words as they are actually used, imho, - Lostcaesar 06:06, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm Catholic, a KofC member, a former liturgy committee member, and an occasional choirboy, and I firmly believe that this article should remain with the current title to avoid any ambiguity and to avoid giving offense to others who consider themselves Catholic. -- Sar e kOfVulcan 06:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Quoting myself from another page on the same topic:
I give you the following quote by the Holy Father. [13]
If the pope can refer to "Roman Catholics" for clarity, so can we.-- Sar e kOfVulcan 06:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
So I don't know what happened to not editing article names until this discussion was over, but Consecrated life in the Roman Catholic Church has been moved back to Consecrated life (Catholic Church) (look at the history, it has gone back and forth a number of times, once by me.. opps :P) Anyway, the bigger question is I came across Religious life. Look where that term redirects to. I was unaware that the Catholic Church had a monopolgy on the term "religious life". It seems to me that there is a more global page that that term should redirect to, but I was wondering if anyone watching this page could chime in. Any thoughts?-- Andrew c 06:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Fishhead for finding a good page for religious life's redirect. As for the pointing of fingers. I honestly do not care who did what, when. I admit, before I came to this discussion a few weeks ago, I was reverting moves left and right. I since decided that it amounts to edit warring due to the lack of consensus here. I came here and urged EVERYONE (including YOU), to please stop making edits regarding the name. So we have some articles that are in one style, and some articles that are in another style. Big deal, we can work that out after this discussion is closed. However, editing DURING the discussion seems to be a spit in the face of this consensus process (and yes, we are all getting impatient because it has dragged on for months and months). But seriously, I am not going to make and edits regarding the name of articles, can we all agree to stop for the time being?-- Andrew c 20:20, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
As editors know, this question has been a matter of extensive, sometimes heated debate over a period of some six months. It is consuming a good deal of my editorial time and energy, and I'm sure that of other users as well. It is also leading to apparent ill-will between certain editors. We have tried requests for comment and mediation during this period, and sometimes have been tantalizingly close to resolution. Alas, the debate continues to be unresolved. I want to propose that we nominate this dispute for arbitration. Thoughts? Fishhead64 19:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
The dispute is that some editors (including myself) support the self-identification' of the Catholic Church and some editors oppose such self-identification. By "Catholic Church" I specifically mean the one church that identifies itself with this proper name and not those churches who self-identify with another proper name, and claim a catholic character or a connection to the Catholic Church. patsw 21:18, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
I realize that Fishhead want to end this debate. He is tired of it. I am too, but I will not tire of defending was is just. Patsw, has said it well. WP is clear about favoring the self naming of an institution. Resistance to application of this policy is a matter of deeply ingrained bias cultivated over centuries. No other entity, neither the English crown, nor the Archbishop of Canterbury, nor WP has the authority to change the name of the Catholic Church. The often cited OED was compiled in Oxford at the height of the Oxford Movement and has a deeply ingrained bias as does the Encyclopedia Britannica. The single source of credible and verifiable evidence for the proper name of the Catholic Church is the official and non-diplomatic documents of the Holy See. To ignore this is do a grave injustice and is a profoundly anti-Catholic act as WP singles out just this one instution for complete disregard of its self identity. Short of this recognition, no WP process will satisfy the demand for justice and this issue will not die. So, buck up, Fishhead, if you are utterly committed to renaming of the Catholic Church and erradicating its name on WP, be prepared to duke it out for as long as you edit WP. Catholics have long memories of Anglican oppression. IRELAND, QUEBEC, ELIZABETH, JAMES, ST. JOHN FISHER, ST. THOMAS MORE etc. Quit the bloodshed and we will have peace. Vaquero100 02:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I support using the full name 'Roman Catholic Church' to distinguish this body from others that either call themselves the 'Catholic Church' or use 'Catholic Church' as part of their name. Examples include the Orthodox Catholic Church of America, Apostolic Catholic Orthodox Church, and the Holy Catholic Church (Anglican Rite). There's no question that the Roman Catholic Church calls itself Catholic. So do other churches. It should not be taken as insult or some sort of anti-papist slur, just as a more precise identification. In a similar vein, many people talk about the Methodist Church when they really mean the United Methodist Church, which is by far the largest of more than 40 methodist denominations. I support using the full name of the United Methodist Church for the same reason. Wesley 17:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church in the glossary defines Catholic Church
Catholic Church The Church established by Christ on the foundation of the Apostles, possessing the fullness of the means of salvation which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. [18]
Also from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
Does Fishhead64 believe this defines her Communion? - SynKobiety 13:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Is Fishhead a girl errr woman? Figures.
Vaquero100
05:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. "Dominus Jesus" On the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church
This debate seems to be getting hung up on self-identification. However, self-identification is not part of the primary standard for Wikipedia naming. The principal rule for naming is "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Common recognisability, lack of ambiguity, ease of linking; not self-identification. Other policies that may be relevant are the three principal content-guiding policies, Neutral Point of View, Verifiability and No Original Research; and the guidelines on Naming Conflicts. I can't help feeling that this debate would be far more productive concentrating on the things actually required by policy, rather than on this question of self-identification which seems of dubious relevance. TSP 15:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
The internal/external document argument is completely bogus. Every document we can quote is a PUBLIC document. Internal documents are kept in the Vatican archives! Documents addressed to other Churches or representatives of other churches are diplomatic discourse. The only authoritative body of documents we have to go on are Conciliar documents, the CCC, encyclicals, motu proprio documents and apostolic constitutions.
The names of individual Latin Rite Catholic parishes can clearly include "Roman" in their name because that is a reference to the Western Church which is what they are part of. However, when talking about the entire Catholic Church, Roman is inappropriate because Eastern Rite Catholic Churches are Catholic but not Roman. Vaquero100 23:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Andrew c, I apologize for that last outburst but he is a known Catholic-bater AND and administrator! Anyway, I am not aware of a Church that calls itself the "Catholic Church" other that this one. Linguistically, it would be almost impossible to accomplish as the Catholic Church really is everywhere and those who would be most motivated to call themselves thus would always want to make a distinction because they usually have a beef with the CC. The closes I know of is a very small sect, the True Catholic Church, which ironically has no problem on WP for having a POV name.
To answer your other question, I would have no problem with the title The Catholic Church, but others might. That sounds to me even more excusivist. But if this distinction without a difference is helpful to some, I am willing to make that compromise. Vaquero100 03:34, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
The usage, The Catholic Church, is discouraged at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (definite and indefinite articles at beginning of name) - SynKobiety 14:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
TSP, I hate to tell you this but you did not read far enough down the page. Please look at this section: WP:NCON#Dealing_with_self-identifying_terms. WP is very, very clear that the preferred name is to be used for self-identifying entities. It is also clear that the NPOV policy is contextualized in these cases. WP conventions indicate that it is not POV to "report" self identifying entities by their preferred name regardless of how others feel about that name.
TSP, you have been away for a long time. It is good to see you back. I've done a lot of research on this question from the point of view of WP policy and conventions. It is all written up here: CC vs. RCC. You might want to look it over.
Andrew c, for those familiar with Vatican documents several points are clear in regard to your message above. "Why on earth do they use the term "Roman" in all those documents." I'll forgive the "they" in your comments. First, compared to the enormous volumes of documents published by the Holy See, these several mentions are infinitessimally few. Furthermore, all of these instances are examples of diplomatic messages and communiqués which employ a very defferential language in reference to the adressees. The Holy See has a very elaborate hierarchy of communications with explicit levels of authority. Diplomatic messages are of the lowest level of authority and are considered virtually worthless for determining doctrine or teaching or anything official. On the contrary, those documents of the highest authority are Ecumenical Council, Motu Proprio, Encyclical and Apostolic Constitution documents. As you will see if you look over CC vs. RCC, there have been only five references to "Roman Catholic Church" in all the Church's most authoritative documents of the last 250 years. That is longer than the US has been a nation! The last occurance was 56 years ago. Looking at Consiliar documents alone, which are the highest form of teaching in the Catholic Church, there is not one instance of such wording in 2000 years of history and 21 ecumenical councils. That to me is very convincing. I have asked you many times before to look over that page of arguments and you continue to come up with arguments and questions which are clearly addressed there. Would you please take a couple of minutes and look it over? Compared to all the time you have put into this issue already, it would not take long to read it. This might save us all a lot of ink.
And, Fishhead, yikes. The Anglican idea of "Catholic Church" has no teaching, no canon law, no visible head, no systematic theology. It has a mish-mash of conficting ideas, claims, teachings and organizations, but it is not a real entity. It is an idea without a content. That is why no one except a few Anglican ministers in Britain and an Archbishop of Canterbury ever reference it. If it shows up on Google, it is so far down the list that its obscurity warrents it little more than a mention on WP. WP is intended for the common reader, not the specialist. The common reader would never look up "Catholic Church" to find information on anything but the ancient Catholic Church centered on Rome. You also should take a moment to look over this page: CC vs. RCC because you really dont have an argument. Opinion on WP is beginning to change because the evidence in favor of the Catholic Church's name is utterly and completely overwhelming. Furthermore, it is a serious injustice to single out the Catholic Church as the one entity which WP excepts from its very clear naming policy. To single out one institution in such a way is to reveal a bias which WP cannot afford to harbor. The scant evidence you provide for another use is so isolated and confined in actual use that it is really laughable that anyone would find Catholic Church confusing. Your Church has been working hard for 450 years to force the Catholic Church to change its name. It hasn't happened and it wont happen. And WP policy is to recognize an institution by its own preferred name. Vaquero100 20:13, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I just did another search that you all might find interesting. I did a search on "Roman" on an online "Catechism of the Catholic Church." The results are
[20]. Every instance of the word Roman was a reference to one of the following:
There was not a single reference in the entire CCC where "Roman" was used to refer to the entire Church, East and West, contered on Rome. It is clear that the emphasis on the dignity of the Eastern Rites forces in Catholic use the term Roman to only refer to the Western Church and not the Catholic Church as a whole. As has been said before many times, "Roman" is not to be applied to the Eastern Catholic Churches whose tradition is centered on Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria, but not Rome. In the eyes of the Catholic Church, Roman refers to the Western Church and communion with Rome does not make a Church "Western" or "Roman."
Now I need to add this to my list of arguments.... Vaquero100 20:36, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Allow me to quote you back to yourself, Guy:
I wonder which hoary old argument has just been revived? Could it perhaps be the perenial demand by the Papists to move their article from Roman Catholic Church to Catholic Church? I must wander along and have a look - maybe there will be a new argument this time. Yes, yes, I know - the triumph of hope over experience... Just zis Guy you know? 21:01, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
Vaquero100 03:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
I still think the best solution that makes both sides give in, is to have the main article stay RCC, and have the first initial link in an article be to the Roman Catholic Church. However, susbsequent usages in an article can use CC all they want, so the word "Roman" is only in the article once. As for article titles, if an article covers byzantine rite or any POV from orthodox, old catholics, etc then it can simply have CC in the title, but if an article does not included these other POVs, it should have RCC in the title. It's not perfect, but hopefully everyone will be willing to compromise in order to end this long process? -- Andrew c 13:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
That is not a compromise. It continues a usage that conflicts with Wikipedia guidelines. The best solution would have the main article named "Catholic Church," with "Roman Catholic Church" redirecting there. The the existing link at the top of the article to Catholic Church (disambiguation) should remain.- SynKobiety 14:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
While Fishhead's mind has not been changed, I think that there is evidence that the concensus of last March (I think it was 17 to7) in favor of "Roman" is now dissipating. The proposal in March was not argued from WP policies but from theological POV which simply allowed the majority to vote their theological POV. As Catholics are the minority among English speakers, the Anglican position carried. This is precisely why WP convenions are written to favor the preference of the named entity so that a minority entity has some protection. Now that the arguments are framed from a WP policy standpoint, the recent votes have moved strongly in favor of CC, not RCC. It is interesting to note that Fishhead has found other interests to work on since those votes have been taken (on Catholic spirituality, Catholic devotions etc.). I used to be afraid of votes because I had seen how they went in March. Fishhead on the other hand wanted to bring things to a vote. But, the tide is changing... Vaquero100 14:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
It has been 10 days since Fishhead has spoken on this topic. I dont know if this is an abdication, but it seems that the only ones speaking for Roman right now are the ones working on a compromise, Gimmetrow and Andrew c. Does it make sense to speak for a position which at this time no one seems interested in advotating?
At this point, I think the CC position has more than answered all the Anglican objections--and more importantly more than demonstrated its case in terms of WP. As much as I respect the attempt at a compromise, it is really is uncalled for and unnecessary from a WP policy perspective. Vaquero100 15:19, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
There are other (small, schismatic) Catholic groups, such as Old Catholics and the Polish National Catholic Church, as well as Conclavists such as the true Catholic Church and the Palmarian Catholic Church, that are out of communion with Rome. Arch O. La Grigory Deepdelver 21:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)