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Last time I checked, we called him Rollo the Brave in English.... JHK
Gange Hrolf was not the Rollo of Normandy
Were we to use consensus nomenclature, the article would be entitled Rollo I, Duke of Normandy -- do you mind? Got the R the G from Hollister, BTW JHK
Was there a Rollo II? If not, he's plain "Rollo, Duke of Normandy". Except on conversion he aparently adopted the name Robert and is given in some lists as Robert I (which means renumbering all the later Roberts). Aaaaargh! User:David Parker
PS. Is Rollo really French, or just their rendition of his original name?
I have to second the AAAARRRRGGHHH... I just found a source that questions whether Hrolf/Rollo can actually be fairly called a "duke" at all! Excerpts from Rosamond McKitterick's, "The Frankish Kingdom under the Carolingians, 751-987", (Longman) 1983:
Ack! Does this mean he is, in consensus nomenclature,
NO signed Stalker
... or what?? Anyone know where current thinking is on this? -- April
Does anybody know if Rollo's size (height / weight) was ever documented? To earn the nickname 'the walker' he must have been rather large.
I'm confused. I got here from
Battle of Soissons where it says that Rollo died in the battle. However
June 15 says that
Robert I of France died in that battle and his article seems to confirm that. Where these two different men who died on the same day at the same battle or are they the same person? Please fix all the articles I cited accordingly. --
mav 03:58, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Someone (maybe me when I can find time) needs to do a section on his wife and kiddies. William is mentioned, but not Gerloc/Adele, who married William III of Aquitaine. -- Michael K. Smith 01:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I remember seeing in a tour guide some years ago that Hrolf was supposed to have been interred at Notre-Dame in Rouen. Anybody know? -- Michael K. Smith 01:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Does it strike anyone that the list of refs is a hodge-podge? It looks like the original author (or someone) just threw in every book they could find that had "viking" in the title. I would not feel comfortable deleting any of these -- since they're not "wrong," just pointless -- but this method dilutes the untility of the list. -- Michael K. Smith 01:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
re the last bit on the house of windsor & descent from rollo - thought the windsorites were formally of hanover & prior to that a distinct break w/ the house of orange from holland & prior to that other distinct houses ie tudors, plantangents and finally william I's family? how could eliza ii be directly related? royal lines die out etc etc etc
I am a direct descendant of Rollo (20 generations back father to son all the way down, but the surname has changed a few times during that time - mainly due to titles or inheritances). With daughters its even more so.
Chewings72 seems to think that it isn't interesting that Danny Dyer of all people can prove his descent from Rollo. I disagree, it is very interesting. -- 82.13.113.45 ( talk) 10:06, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
A small research about Rollo of Normandy.
1. A Danish Prince:
The statement of the Norman
Dudo of Saint-Quentin ("De Moribus et Actis Primorum
Normanniae Ducum") that Rollo was a Danish prince. (Dudo a much more recent and living alot nearer the regions concerned).
2. Wrote on Request of Rollo´s grandson: Dudo wrote Rollo´s story some 60 years after Rollo's death (d.931) at the request of his grandson Richard I.
Snorre (The Icelandic saga) wrote his saga tree centuries later. And he lived on Iceland!)
Iceland is a island very far away from Normandy. Settled by peaceful settlers who were seeking green fields.
3. Yet another proof that the Icelandic saga is mostly fiction: Snorre's inconsistency in describing "Hrolf" father as a dear friend of King Harold Fairhair, yet relating Hrolf's assault on Viken as if an enemy.
4. Another Hrolf!: The existence of another Jarl Hrolf in Normandy, whom Orkneyinga Saga aka the Icelandic Snorre may have mistaken for Rollo. Or maybe he just wanted Rollo of Normandy to be Icelandic.
5. Reference to other Danes: Dudo's reference to Rollo's brother Gorm( Gurim), who arrived in France in the company of his "uncle Sigfred” (Sigfred III). (Ragnar's son, and of Godfrid, the son of Harold Klak," who played a prominent role in the Battle of Saulcourt in 881. Harald Klak was the one who arrived with 60 ships in Normandy).
6. Born in Denmark: Benoit de St. More; Chronique des Ducs de Normandie (Writed about 1190): States that Rollo was born in Fakse in his native country. This is presumably Fakse in Stevns in eastern Zealand of Denmark, which agrees very well with Dudo's account that Rollo fled to Scania (Skåne) (near Fakse), just on the other side of the Sound, and the place name examples in Skåne and Normandy.
7. Same place names. A study of the place names of Normandy has shown that several names appear to be direct translations of the Danish province until 1650´s Scania/ Skåne in the south of Sweden) places, e.g. Yvetot (from Ivetofta) and Bourgebue (from Borgeby). Witch also agrees with Dudo, that they fled to Skåne.
8. Language influence: Here clearly tells the “ Old Norse language” article, that the old language of Denmark and most of Sweden also were spoken in some places in the Normandy in its earlier days. It should be noties that the Danes and Norwegians not spoken that same language. Danish and Norwegian/Icelandic was NOT the same language.
9. Saxo: Saxo Grammaticus. Also claim in his Gesta Danorum -wrote about 1185, that Rollo was Danish. (But he properly used some sources from Dudo).
10. Could be a son of Ivar Boneless: "Origin and History of the Montgomerys...", B. G. de Montgomery, (William Blackwood and Sons Ltd, Edinburgh and London, 1948)...pp. 30-32:
The author cites as proof of his contention that Rollo was the son of Ivar. The Dane Ivar the Boneless, who died. 872),” (But i think that is very doubtful.)
11. Invited the major of Fakse: That Rollo had orgin in Fakse, was remembered in Normandy in 1911, when major Haxthausen of Fakse was invited to the to the big Millenium Festivals in Rouen, as a representative of Rollo´s native soil.
Source from the turist/history site of Fakse: http://www.fixfaxe.dk/sevaerd/rollostenen.htm
Here is some qoutes from Dudo of Saint-Quentin´s “De moribus et actis primorum Normannie Ducum”
This one i think many Danish scholar are familiar with:
Just send ambassadors to them to find out what they themselves say." Then Ragnold: "Go swiftly, we pray, to find out their purpose." Anstign replied: "I will not go alone." On the contrary, they sent with him two warriors skillful in the Dacian language. Coming upon the riverbank, they stood still, saying: "Counts of royal power command you to say who you are, and whence you have come, and what you are planning to do." Truly they replied: "We are Danes. Carried here from Dacia (Denmark), we have come to take Francia by assault." Yet they: "What authority does your lord discharge?" They replied: "None, for we men are of equal power."
Here he say that was from Dacia himself, and NOT Iceland.
Read it here. http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/11-conquest
more Dudo:
The Franks is at its knees and is forced to make peace with the Danes (Dacians) Rollo will make peace on the condition that he get Carls daughter and the duchy of Normandy. 932 he is baptised and gets the Christian name Robert. Now he rebuild the land and build churches. Five years before his death he gives the throne to his son Wilhelm I. Rollo properly dies in 932.
Vilhelm of Jumièges is a monk from Normandy writed it about 1070. (also before Orkneyinga Saga FROM ICELAND! were writed).
From Vilhelm of Jumièges: Guillaume de Jumièges Gesta Normannorum.
Quote: The father sends him (the son) to the city Bayeux, and gave him to his “commander” to learn Danish (Danica) language. Under the protection of Boso. So he could give his –from the outcountrys, the right answars. [ut ibi lingua eruditus Danica, suis exterisque hominibus sciret apte dare responsa]”
from the same text.
Rollos reputation was so great that king Harald of Denmark ( Harald Klak) (Danorum rex) flied to Normandy with 60 ships after his brother Sven had taken the power in Denmark. The mighty and noble duke (Rollo) Received Harald with glory and gave him the province of Coutances until he was strong enough to return and retake the lost realm.
That is also drawed on the The Bayeux Tapestry.
That tells about those who arrived in Normandy were Danes. Harald Klak was also in front in 815, in a big sea battle. When the Franks for the first and only time tryed to invade Jutland, Denmark. There isn´t made a Harald Klak page yet.
>>>>Conclusion: Rollo is from Denmark. -most likely
Fakse,
Zealand.<<<<
Ofcouse no one can proof anything like we can´t proof that Neil Armstrong was the first man on the Moon. But there is surely alot more proof and give alot more sence that Rollo was from Denmark , and not from a island far away. There is also evidens for that the Danes had conflics with the Francians in that time, and centuries before. Look at
Danevirke etc.
In the old town
Fakse (Today known as Faxe, after the
Faxe brawery) in Zealand, Denmark, ca. 35 km. South-west from
Copenhagen. Is there a monument for Rollo. Called Rollostenen (The Rollo stone). Also a School called Rolloskolen (The Rollo school).
The National-museum in Denmark have a temporary exhibition about The Bayeux Tapestry. The exhibition also shows those old founds in Denmark from Normandy. And alot of Anglo-saxon coins (over 30.000 i think). And also cites as proof of it, that Denmark was a big trading partner with Normandy, witch also agrees with Dudo.
http://www.nationalmuseet.dk/sw20385.asp
Read Dudo of St. Quentin's Gesta Normannorum here: http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/dudindex.html
--Comanche cph 02:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
No! All this all this is wrong. Rollo of Normandy is a guy named Gange Hrolf from Iceland and he was so big that he couldnt sit on his own horse. ~~ writed by a ingorant Norwegian.
Answar:
The Icelandic Orkneyinga saga is not a strictly historical work. The saga is as much a piece of medieval literature as historical documentation and, written some three centuries after some of the events it records. There is found examples of obviously fictional elements - such as Earl Sigurd's raven banner, the poisoned shirt of Earl Harald, elements of the Hrolf Ganger saga and the foundation of Oslo etc.
You can also see on the Oslo article under history how wrong the Snorre Saga is.
According to the Norse sagas (The Snorre saga), Oslo was founded around 1048 by king Harald Hardråde. Recent archaeological research has uncovered Christian burials from before 1000, evidence of a preceding urban settlement. This called for the celebration of Oslo's millennium in 2000.
This is actually a funny statement as the article contradict it self, and show how ignorant some Norwegians are over for Norwegian History. On the Jelling stones from the late 900´s it say clearly that Harald Bluetooth invaded South Norway ( Viken).
And dont forget Harald Bluetooth of Denmark were the one who Christinized the Danes, and proberly also the Norwegians as the founds of Christian burials says. Harald Bluetooth founded Christania (later renamed to Oslo in the 1600´s) in about 950. Viken and more of Norway was properly a Danish Colonial until the Kalmar Union.
--Comanche cph 02:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I have answered you here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oslo#Answar_to_Barend --Comanche cph 16:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I don´t write the Rollo stone as a proof. But why arent you coment all the other proofs???? What source do you have for the Rollo statue in ålesund was a gift from Rouen? You know that many place names a Rouen match Danish place Names.
But anyway, What´s happen 1000 years later, can´t we use as a proof for anything. --Comanche cph 21:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Im not moving any theory, where do you get that from? But Rollo was not known by any tekst as Hrolf. Only the icelandic saga. So his name on other wiki-pages should either be Rollo or Robert. okay?
Ok, forget the Rollostone, is was not used as a proof, i may delete it! Instend Comment the atleast 10 other sources!
The statue in ålesund was also send to Fargo in USA as a copy. So why and when does the Americans come into this, was he also from America now? I think this make the questian about that gift very distrustful. But anyway. That dosent proof anything, like said before.
The place names was used from Scania, with was they Rollo fleed from with his men. -according to Dudo. And remember that Norway first adopted the Danish language during the Kalmar union in 1300´s to 1800´s, when scholar in Norway learned Danish, instead of the old Norwegian.
All writers from Normandy state that he is Denmark and not the Hrolt Ganger from Iceland. So why should we trust a saga who has been proven with alot of fault and fiction, writed 300 years later?
So in you eyes Dudo of Saint-Quentin, Benoit de St. More and Vilhelm of Jumièges all lived before Snorre, and closer the the events, must be faking??
--Comanche cph 21:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
There is not much evidence that supports the theory that the majority of Normans were Norwegian, they seem to have been Danish (especially from what is now Sweden) and the Normans themselves claim that Rollo was from Denmark, not Norway. Snorre was not a Norman, but an Icelandic, and thus it is more likely that the Norman sources were more correct about the founder of their country than the Icelandic source. Danish or Norwegian nationalism shouldn't come into play here, the fact is that Rollo was Danish, as confirmed by Norman sources, and not Norwegian. - ExplorainCaptain — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.189.209 ( talk) 20:53, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
It is not confermed by norman sources he was danish, not at all. The norman sources say he was from Dacia, witch also could mean Scandinavia. We know from english sources that the anglo saxons rearly distinguished danes from norwegians, calling them all danes. This is because we spoke in "danish tongue". Why should the french be different? Further on, Fakse, or Fasge - could just as well be Fauske, witch is a place in Møre - Norway. This place is, unlike Faxe in Denmark, surrounded by high mountains, as Dudo describes. And acording to the saga litterature Rollo was from Møre. Rollo is the latin name for Hrolf. There is no mentioning of Rollo in any danish sources, but several in the icelandic sagas and the Orkneyingar saga...strange that such a prominant "dane" wouldnt be mentioned in Saxo Grammaticus. No norwegian would remove the danish theory, however allot of danes seems to want to remove the norwegian claim. That is nationalism my friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
As a vote is one of the steps on Wikipedias policy on resolving disputes I would like to suggest one. Add your four~ under the solution you support.
But why a vote? What is wrong this, it´s tells about both theorys!
--Comanche cph 14:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Comanche: If you agree that Rollo could have been Rolf the Ganger then why are you still contesting it in other articles? Inge 15:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I do NOT agree with the pro-Icelandic fairytale. But that´s not the issue here. We have a article tells about both theories of the Duke of Normandy. But it seems like many Norwegians in here, like you, don´t wanna accept that. --Comanche cph 16:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Mattamatikk: I havent yet figured out how to replay on talk, so ill write here. You cant say all other theories are rubbish. Dacia was also a name used to describe all of Scandinavia, not only Denmark. Besides, Dudo says Rollos birthplace was surrounded by high mountains...there are no mountains in Denmark. The french sources say he was from Fakse, however this could easily be Fauske witch is in Møre & Romsdal, the place the Icelandic sagas claim Rollo was from. Fauske is surrounded by high mountains. In most ways, the description Dudo gives fits Norway better. Besides, it is common among historians both in France, Norway and England to believe he was from Norway, judging from the sources of both Dudo and the Icelandic sagas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
In the article it says Dacia was also used as another name for Denmark. Seems a bit fishy to me. Can anyone confirm or refute this? The Land 20:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Article says: "Danelaw inhabitants were in no way, shape or form, partial to the Normans". What does it mean? Friends, or enemies?
The result of the proposal was move Rollo of Normandy -> Rollo. Andrewa ( talk) 06:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
All the dukes from William II (the Conqueror) on do not use a standard ducal title. Only the dukes from William I (Longsword) to Richard III use the standard form. Robert II (the Magnificient) is being reconsidered. Rollo should not be moved to Rollo, Duke of Normandy, the consistent title, because he was not really "Duke of Normandy". Rollo is clear enough and simplest. Srnec ( talk) 23:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not clear on the nominaton. What does Srnec want the article moved to? GoodDay ( talk) 17:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. GoodDay ( talk) 17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed this edit because the claim of the Kvenland origin it is based entirely on this website which is not a WP:RS. The rest of the cited sources are WP:Primary sources, most of which doesn't even mention Rollo. There is also a question of undue weight, since this theory doesn't seem generally accepted. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 07:14, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Up till now, the information pertaining to Rollo's origins, based on medieval accounts, have lacked sources. No sources have been included for that at all - zero.
Thus, the medieval accounts in question and the info relating to Rollo's family lineage will now be presented in slightly more detail, with links and some quotes included. Appropriate sources are provided, and more can be added.
The information added is widely discussed in literature and among historians, and the sources given are reliable, verifiable and fitting for Wikipedia standards. The same sources are also used for other closely related information elsewhere in Wikipedia.
The validity of the statement according to which "most would now agree that a certain conclusion can never be reached" cannot be verified. Thus, that claim can be replaced by simply noting that the topic continues to be debated (or continues to be under disagreement). Johansdotter ( talk) 01:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
An explanatory headline and the terms "claimed", "suggests" and "possibly" were added in the text. In addition to secondary sources, primary sources were left for validation of the quotes and translations presented, not for support of "theories" (Note: old sources too can be viewed as "secondary" sources if they tackle and analyze occurrences which happened earlier in the past and if those occurrences had already been reported in primary sources before). The various heroic figures presented in the medieval accounts are interpreted in various ways by historians, some as mythological and others as figures who possibly may have existed, despite of some figures in some cases having been likened to "gods" (compare to Russian tsars, Stalin and Kim Jong Il being likened to gods by many of their followers in more recent history). The following was added to the paragraph:
"In the center of controversy about Rollo's origins are the heroic figures who based on various medieval accounts could be claimed to have shared a bloodline with Rollo. Some of these figures are interpreted to have been mythological or semi-mythological by many historians, while others interpret at least some key figures to have been real. Professor Emeritus Kyösti Julku for instance points out that no errors have been found in the geographical information presented in the Orkneyinga saga. Why should we then suspect that the people discussed in the saga were not real, Julku asks. [source]" Johansdotter ( talk) 08:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I will back up a bit and go through my objections step by step. You write "The Yngling "Fairhair dynasty" lineage introduced in Hversu Noregr byggðist ("How Norway was settled") and the Orkneyinga and Heimskringla sagas suggests a line of Rollo going back to Fornjót, the primeval "king" who "reigned over" Finland and Kvenland". Fine, that information may or may not be notable for inclusion in the article. Problem is that with the array of sources (the abovementioned citation overkill) you cited I could not find a single one of them mentioning anything about Rollo. So the first step for you is to provide a source that states exactly this. At that point it may be primary or secondary, but of course the wording in the article will vary based on the nature of the source.
Now, the rest of the problem with your additions is that you take this claim (A) of Rollos Ynglinge heritage, and from this you add a bunch of stuff about the Ynglinge dynasty and the supposed relations to that dynasty with older mythological or real individuals (B). None of the stuff in B mentions Rollo or his supposed connection to that dynasty, that connection is something you as an editor has made for us. That is the definition of synthesis, and since you are using mostly primary sources it is probably closer to original research. I suggest you actually take your time to read the Wikipedia:Synthesis and Wikipedia:Original research policies regarding this.
If no scholar has made this connection in reliable secondary sources but you still insist on mentioning it in this article, the only option you have is to propose the theory yourself in a peer reviewed journal or other reliable source, see to it that is generally approved and then we can talk about adding it to Wikipedia. I hope that this has made the nature of my objections clearer to you, and that it may be of help to you in finding acceptable sources for this. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 10:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Mattamatikk ( talk) 02:08, 5 September 2013 (UTC) Question:
1. Did Dudo and Benoist de Sainte-Maure claim that Rollo was from "Fasge", "Faxe" or "Fakse"? And i see the author of the article identifies Fakse with Faxe in Denmark. Well, he should also include the fact that it could be Fauske in Norway. Fauske is, unlike Faxe in Denmark, surrounded by "high alps". Fauske is a place in Møre, witch the Icelandic sagas claim Rollo hailed from.
2. The author specifies that Icelandic and Norwegian historians identified Rollo with "Gange Hrolf" - insinuating that they somewhat stands alone in this theory, witch is higly uncorrect.
The whole section of Rollos origin seems biased.
i've added the malaterra reference to rollo as a norwegian because it is interesting, but i'm a little unclear as to why it's been ignored. malaterra's history is wonky, no doubt. however, he was writing from italy at roughly the same time as the norman invasion of england, which makes him a relatively early source. he would have lacked any of the political motivations that dudo or jumierges may have had to connect the norman dukes to denmark. dudo is certainly known to have fabricated a few things here and there. further, 'dane' is an ambiguous term, in context. with malaterra, there's no reason to think he would have been expressing anything other than the understood knowledge of the time. as far as i can see, he's the best source we've got.
certainly, the malaterra reference is older than the sagas (as they exist in written form).
what i'm a little iffy about is if the translation is accurate. i suppose it could have merely been overlooked, it is after all an italo-norman history rather than a franco-norman history. but i'd have to collectively slap all historians of the period for missing this, if that's the case. so, could we get an expert check the translation? if the translation is accurate, i think this answers the question.
it doesn't, however, corroborate the sagas. not exactly, anyways. it simply fixes rollo's background as norwegian. i'll let the experts take it from there and get back to me on it.
I think this section is biased towards danish origin:
"Rollo was a powerful Viking leader of contested origin. Dudo of Saint-Quentin, in his De moribus et actis primorum Normannorum ducum,[3] tells of a powerful Danish nobleman at loggerheads with the king of Denmark, who had two sons, Gurim and Rollo; upon his death, Rollo was expelled and Gurim killed. William of Jumièges also mentions Rollo's prehistory in his Gesta Normannorum Ducum, but states that he was from the Danish town of Fakse. Wace, writing some 300 years after the event in his Roman de Rou, also mentions the two brothers (as Rou and Garin), as does the Orkneyinga Saga.
Norwegian and Icelandic historians identified Rollo instead with Ganger Hrolf (Hrolf, the Walker), a son of Rognvald Eysteinsson, Earl of Møre, in Western Norway, based on medieval Norwegian and Icelandic sagas. The oldest source of this version is the Latin Historia Norvegiae, written in Norway at the end of the 12th century. This Hrolf fell foul of the Norwegian king Harald Fairhair, and became a Jarl in Normandy. The nickname "the Walker", "Ganger" in Norse, came from being so big that no horse could carry him.
Geoffrey of Malaterra, in his The Deeds of Count Roger of Calabria & Sicily & of Duke Robert Guiscard his brother claims Rollo "sailed boldly from Norway".[4]
The question of Rollo's origins was a matter of heated dispute between Norwegian and Danish historians of the 19th and early 20th centuries, particularly in the run-up to Normandy's millennium anniversary in 1911. Today, the debate continues."
The author make it seem like the general consensus amongst historians is that of Rollos Danish origin, while only Icelandic and Norwegian historians tend to dispute this. Acording to http://snl.no/Gange-Rolv ( /info/en/?search=Store_norske_leksikon) Swedish, Danish and German historians tend to favour the Danish origin, while English, French and Norwegian historians tend to favour the norwegian origin.
I wote for a rewrite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk ( talk • contribs) 03:12, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
I removed the 2013 in reference to the television series. Since it is on-going as of 2015, I thought referencing the History Channel would be more appropriate and wear better as time goes on. Hamaxides ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
The intro to this article says that Rollo/Robert was sometimes known as Robert I, but later the article refers to a clearly separate person Robert I assuming the throne of France. It would be helpful if this potential confusion could be clarified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.62.30 ( talk) 08:45, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
both edits undue and reverted. Esnertofidel ( talk) 11:35, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
can one with working knowledge of latin provide a translation of the dais of rollo's grave? google translator only gives partial translation, and is not useful. Esnertofidel ( talk) 18:29, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
So I deleted some statement in the Origin section that claimed Western Norway to be under danish hegemony during Rollos time. This is not historical correct, and was not backed up by sources. Viken however was a disputed erea between Danes and Norwegians during Rollos time. Viken is located in Eastern Norway, not western. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk ( talk • contribs) 00:51, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
There's no conclusive origin of Rollo, so I see no reason to put one there until historians and archaeologists have found one. We only know he was either Danish or Norwegian, or even both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.185.210.96 ( talk) 21:16, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I agree entirely that we should not merge the identities of Rollo and Ganger Rolf in the early section of the article, as though this was accepted by all historians. Discussion of his origins (with sources) should be balanced and confined to the Origins section. I have overhauled the article in line with this. In the process I have removed the repeated references to a secondary source from 1942 that seems to have been heavily biased in favour of the Ganger Rolf identification and added references to Robert Ferguson's Hammer and the Cross (2009) which incorporates the most recent scholarship and does not seem biased either way. Genie ( talk) 16:49, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I noticed inside the Name section. /info/en/?search=Rollo#Name
His first name Hrólfr -> Rollo -> Robert has been explained. His nickname Göngu -> Ganger -> Walker has not been explained. So maybe we should add it?
FYI, Icelandic to English translation for Göngu https://translate.google.com/?#auto/en/g%C3%B6ngu
Additional Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=5xHntaYOYncC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=carolingian+king+too+big+to+ride+a+horse&source=bl&ots=sSi9Qv83zC&sig=MjuONsy-WAEYNoC98-kW9kithiM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwix6JD8-v3NAhXFVh4KHSnWBYsQ6AEIKzAC#v=onepage&q=carolingian%20king%20too%20big%20to%20ride%20a%20horse&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigerleapgorge ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
@ Malik047 and Genie: You are both close to breaching WP:3RR, so please hash out a consensus here on the talk page. Saying "see talk page" in an edit summary is unproductive if neither of you have participated on the talk page (though I see Genie at least commented today). clpo13( talk) 16:58, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I had read the article last month and found little of substance about the subject "Rollo", there was a lot about opinions of different historians and many comments about items that could not be confirmed, which is hardly surprising considering how long ago he lived. I added a number of items from an 1839 book about the life of Rollo (Duncan, Jonathan (1839). The Dukes of Normandy from the time of King Rollo to the expulsion of King John. Joseph Rickerby and Harvey & Darton.). User:Genie has since deleted all but one reference to the book I had posted and the article has again reverted to little of substance about the subject. No explanation has been given for the deletion of cited information.
The Biography section has almost nothing about his time before France and almost nothing about his time in France. There is almost more about Rollo in the article Charles the Simple. 20% of current "Biography" section says - "Modern analyses of the region's place names reveal Scandinavian settlements stretching from the Seine valley to the coast, and from Rouen to Dieppe. However, compared to settlements along eastern England (especially East Anglia and Yorkshire), the appearance of Norse elements in place names was far from widespread or entrenched. The occurrence of the Gallo-Roman suffix "-ville" after Norse names is evidence for this." - what has this got to do with the biography of Rollo ?
Can we please have something about Rollo and his life in the article, with suitable short comments by various historians if the disagree and with just a covering brief statement that almost nothing can be verified. Ânes-pur-sàng ( talk) 14:24, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
I would be very happy to delete the section on place-names, which really does not tell us anything about Rollo personally. In fact I was thinking about doing that. As for giving no explanation, I have in fact given a detailed explanation earlier on this page of the changes that I felt were required in this article. As I said earlier in the discussion of this page, it really would not help to add speculation from an historian published in 1839. If we cite secondary sources, we should use recent ones, reflecting modern scholarship. Next to nothing can be verified about Rollo's life, as you say. So let's stick to facts that can be confirmed, or at least are acknowledged by modern scholars to be reasonable deductions. Genie ( talk) 14:34, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Added - I have deleted the paragraph on place-names. Genie ( talk) 14:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Someone keeps adding irrelevant, unsourced information about a Swiss castle. 219.77.82.21 ( talk) 12:36, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Mainly a comment. The quote "Old Norse: Hrólfr;" isn't really correct, the Vikings used a different alphabet, known as Runes. Hence is "Rolf" just as good as "Hrólfr". "Rolf" is also a name carried by quite a few men in Sweden, Denmark and Norway still today. I also can see that someone else have stated that "Rollo" wasn't "Gaange Rolf", but according to Scandinavian sources are these two names referring to one and the same person. "Gå" or "Gaa" means "walk" and the reason he didn't ride , appears to be that he was too heavy. Boeing720 ( talk) 00:47, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Same difference, the runes that would have been used (ᚼᚱᚢᛚᚠᚱ in the younger Futhark) express the same phonemes as "Hrólfr" or "Hrolfʀ", depending on if you prefer West or East Norse. "Rolf" is the modern version that developed from East Norse over a period way past Rollo's death (first known occurrence on the undated Forshedastenen as the variant "Rhulf", some time past the late 11th century), and thus not equivalent. "Hrólfr"/"Hrolfʀ" are also the academically accepted spellings of the name in Old Norse, at least using the Latin alphabet. 134.76.63.198 ( talk) 13:39, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Danish:
Andui furent Daneis, mais mult furent di[uers]
Rou fist alkes a dreit, Hasteins fist a envers (Andresen edition, page 36, available on
Internet Archive)
I assume the 'di[uers]' is because of manuscript damage. Hasteins is Hastein. Rough translation is 'they were both Danish, but they were very different ... what Rollo did the right way up, Hasteins did upside down' (this is of course a metaphor, and I can't find a better way to express it). Renard Migrant ( talk) 13:56, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Britannica is a tertiary source. The content that is being repeatedly restored is sourced to Britannica, is repetitious and somewhat off-topic, and has some overlinking and grammar issues. Nor is the History Channel a good source either. Also, as an aside, it isn't "Robert 1 of France" .... Please self-revert and actually discuss the concerns here on the talk page. -- Ealdgyth ( talk) 14:50, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Oh?! Where is picture of the statue of Rollo? I think there had been the photo in this page , and we should get it back to this Wikipedia page!— TRAMPJP ( talk) 07:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE says that "images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative". MOS:LEADIMAGE goes on to say that the lead image should be the "type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works" and that "lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic."
Now, a 13th-century illustration from a genealogy book in which all illustrated people look more or less the same, all dressed in 13th-century clothes too, is neither significant nor the type of image used in high-quality reference works. It conveys no information about Rollo, thus serving no purpose other than decorating the infobox. Surtsicna ( talk) 17:00, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
The use of the image is perfectly OK. I see no problems with significance and relevance, and it is not only "primarily decorative" which would rather apply to the picture of a flower.-- Berig (talk) 20:05, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing the point here, but for the life of me, why would the use of the representative image of Rollo be any different from the use of the representative image of Baldwin IV of Jerusalem that Surtsicna is currently putting through for Good Article status? In fact, all of the medieval art work images in that article are depictions.— Bill Reid | ( talk) 18:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Alright, why is this considered unnoteworthy? He shows up in the base game for a fabricated sequence but is then completely cut from the actual historical event he is known for even though he did actually appear in early concept art for it. 144.51.12.38 ( talk) 01:47, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
The paragraph that starts with "Rollo is the great-great-great-grandfather ... " seems to have weird edits.
I was editing a clarification of the text, as Empress Matilda (related to Rollo) is a woman and therefore the House of Plantagenet has maternal influence from her. It was removed due to claims of missing sources, even when the text itself says empress Matilda sired Henry II. Either remove the entire Paragraph or rewrite the "Descendants" text stating that Rollo only had descendants through Matilda. ZaneHistory ( talk) 18:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Thofinn is fist name , Robert I was taken at conversion . Retired to Orkney in " retirement " 2600:1002:B054:9D47:0:2A:BB6A:8301 ( talk) 19:34, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
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Last time I checked, we called him Rollo the Brave in English.... JHK
Gange Hrolf was not the Rollo of Normandy
Were we to use consensus nomenclature, the article would be entitled Rollo I, Duke of Normandy -- do you mind? Got the R the G from Hollister, BTW JHK
Was there a Rollo II? If not, he's plain "Rollo, Duke of Normandy". Except on conversion he aparently adopted the name Robert and is given in some lists as Robert I (which means renumbering all the later Roberts). Aaaaargh! User:David Parker
PS. Is Rollo really French, or just their rendition of his original name?
I have to second the AAAARRRRGGHHH... I just found a source that questions whether Hrolf/Rollo can actually be fairly called a "duke" at all! Excerpts from Rosamond McKitterick's, "The Frankish Kingdom under the Carolingians, 751-987", (Longman) 1983:
Ack! Does this mean he is, in consensus nomenclature,
NO signed Stalker
... or what?? Anyone know where current thinking is on this? -- April
Does anybody know if Rollo's size (height / weight) was ever documented? To earn the nickname 'the walker' he must have been rather large.
I'm confused. I got here from
Battle of Soissons where it says that Rollo died in the battle. However
June 15 says that
Robert I of France died in that battle and his article seems to confirm that. Where these two different men who died on the same day at the same battle or are they the same person? Please fix all the articles I cited accordingly. --
mav 03:58, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Someone (maybe me when I can find time) needs to do a section on his wife and kiddies. William is mentioned, but not Gerloc/Adele, who married William III of Aquitaine. -- Michael K. Smith 01:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
I remember seeing in a tour guide some years ago that Hrolf was supposed to have been interred at Notre-Dame in Rouen. Anybody know? -- Michael K. Smith 01:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Does it strike anyone that the list of refs is a hodge-podge? It looks like the original author (or someone) just threw in every book they could find that had "viking" in the title. I would not feel comfortable deleting any of these -- since they're not "wrong," just pointless -- but this method dilutes the untility of the list. -- Michael K. Smith 01:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
re the last bit on the house of windsor & descent from rollo - thought the windsorites were formally of hanover & prior to that a distinct break w/ the house of orange from holland & prior to that other distinct houses ie tudors, plantangents and finally william I's family? how could eliza ii be directly related? royal lines die out etc etc etc
I am a direct descendant of Rollo (20 generations back father to son all the way down, but the surname has changed a few times during that time - mainly due to titles or inheritances). With daughters its even more so.
Chewings72 seems to think that it isn't interesting that Danny Dyer of all people can prove his descent from Rollo. I disagree, it is very interesting. -- 82.13.113.45 ( talk) 10:06, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
A small research about Rollo of Normandy.
1. A Danish Prince:
The statement of the Norman
Dudo of Saint-Quentin ("De Moribus et Actis Primorum
Normanniae Ducum") that Rollo was a Danish prince. (Dudo a much more recent and living alot nearer the regions concerned).
2. Wrote on Request of Rollo´s grandson: Dudo wrote Rollo´s story some 60 years after Rollo's death (d.931) at the request of his grandson Richard I.
Snorre (The Icelandic saga) wrote his saga tree centuries later. And he lived on Iceland!)
Iceland is a island very far away from Normandy. Settled by peaceful settlers who were seeking green fields.
3. Yet another proof that the Icelandic saga is mostly fiction: Snorre's inconsistency in describing "Hrolf" father as a dear friend of King Harold Fairhair, yet relating Hrolf's assault on Viken as if an enemy.
4. Another Hrolf!: The existence of another Jarl Hrolf in Normandy, whom Orkneyinga Saga aka the Icelandic Snorre may have mistaken for Rollo. Or maybe he just wanted Rollo of Normandy to be Icelandic.
5. Reference to other Danes: Dudo's reference to Rollo's brother Gorm( Gurim), who arrived in France in the company of his "uncle Sigfred” (Sigfred III). (Ragnar's son, and of Godfrid, the son of Harold Klak," who played a prominent role in the Battle of Saulcourt in 881. Harald Klak was the one who arrived with 60 ships in Normandy).
6. Born in Denmark: Benoit de St. More; Chronique des Ducs de Normandie (Writed about 1190): States that Rollo was born in Fakse in his native country. This is presumably Fakse in Stevns in eastern Zealand of Denmark, which agrees very well with Dudo's account that Rollo fled to Scania (Skåne) (near Fakse), just on the other side of the Sound, and the place name examples in Skåne and Normandy.
7. Same place names. A study of the place names of Normandy has shown that several names appear to be direct translations of the Danish province until 1650´s Scania/ Skåne in the south of Sweden) places, e.g. Yvetot (from Ivetofta) and Bourgebue (from Borgeby). Witch also agrees with Dudo, that they fled to Skåne.
8. Language influence: Here clearly tells the “ Old Norse language” article, that the old language of Denmark and most of Sweden also were spoken in some places in the Normandy in its earlier days. It should be noties that the Danes and Norwegians not spoken that same language. Danish and Norwegian/Icelandic was NOT the same language.
9. Saxo: Saxo Grammaticus. Also claim in his Gesta Danorum -wrote about 1185, that Rollo was Danish. (But he properly used some sources from Dudo).
10. Could be a son of Ivar Boneless: "Origin and History of the Montgomerys...", B. G. de Montgomery, (William Blackwood and Sons Ltd, Edinburgh and London, 1948)...pp. 30-32:
The author cites as proof of his contention that Rollo was the son of Ivar. The Dane Ivar the Boneless, who died. 872),” (But i think that is very doubtful.)
11. Invited the major of Fakse: That Rollo had orgin in Fakse, was remembered in Normandy in 1911, when major Haxthausen of Fakse was invited to the to the big Millenium Festivals in Rouen, as a representative of Rollo´s native soil.
Source from the turist/history site of Fakse: http://www.fixfaxe.dk/sevaerd/rollostenen.htm
Here is some qoutes from Dudo of Saint-Quentin´s “De moribus et actis primorum Normannie Ducum”
This one i think many Danish scholar are familiar with:
Just send ambassadors to them to find out what they themselves say." Then Ragnold: "Go swiftly, we pray, to find out their purpose." Anstign replied: "I will not go alone." On the contrary, they sent with him two warriors skillful in the Dacian language. Coming upon the riverbank, they stood still, saying: "Counts of royal power command you to say who you are, and whence you have come, and what you are planning to do." Truly they replied: "We are Danes. Carried here from Dacia (Denmark), we have come to take Francia by assault." Yet they: "What authority does your lord discharge?" They replied: "None, for we men are of equal power."
Here he say that was from Dacia himself, and NOT Iceland.
Read it here. http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/11-conquest
more Dudo:
The Franks is at its knees and is forced to make peace with the Danes (Dacians) Rollo will make peace on the condition that he get Carls daughter and the duchy of Normandy. 932 he is baptised and gets the Christian name Robert. Now he rebuild the land and build churches. Five years before his death he gives the throne to his son Wilhelm I. Rollo properly dies in 932.
Vilhelm of Jumièges is a monk from Normandy writed it about 1070. (also before Orkneyinga Saga FROM ICELAND! were writed).
From Vilhelm of Jumièges: Guillaume de Jumièges Gesta Normannorum.
Quote: The father sends him (the son) to the city Bayeux, and gave him to his “commander” to learn Danish (Danica) language. Under the protection of Boso. So he could give his –from the outcountrys, the right answars. [ut ibi lingua eruditus Danica, suis exterisque hominibus sciret apte dare responsa]”
from the same text.
Rollos reputation was so great that king Harald of Denmark ( Harald Klak) (Danorum rex) flied to Normandy with 60 ships after his brother Sven had taken the power in Denmark. The mighty and noble duke (Rollo) Received Harald with glory and gave him the province of Coutances until he was strong enough to return and retake the lost realm.
That is also drawed on the The Bayeux Tapestry.
That tells about those who arrived in Normandy were Danes. Harald Klak was also in front in 815, in a big sea battle. When the Franks for the first and only time tryed to invade Jutland, Denmark. There isn´t made a Harald Klak page yet.
>>>>Conclusion: Rollo is from Denmark. -most likely
Fakse,
Zealand.<<<<
Ofcouse no one can proof anything like we can´t proof that Neil Armstrong was the first man on the Moon. But there is surely alot more proof and give alot more sence that Rollo was from Denmark , and not from a island far away. There is also evidens for that the Danes had conflics with the Francians in that time, and centuries before. Look at
Danevirke etc.
In the old town
Fakse (Today known as Faxe, after the
Faxe brawery) in Zealand, Denmark, ca. 35 km. South-west from
Copenhagen. Is there a monument for Rollo. Called Rollostenen (The Rollo stone). Also a School called Rolloskolen (The Rollo school).
The National-museum in Denmark have a temporary exhibition about The Bayeux Tapestry. The exhibition also shows those old founds in Denmark from Normandy. And alot of Anglo-saxon coins (over 30.000 i think). And also cites as proof of it, that Denmark was a big trading partner with Normandy, witch also agrees with Dudo.
http://www.nationalmuseet.dk/sw20385.asp
Read Dudo of St. Quentin's Gesta Normannorum here: http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/dudindex.html
--Comanche cph 02:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
No! All this all this is wrong. Rollo of Normandy is a guy named Gange Hrolf from Iceland and he was so big that he couldnt sit on his own horse. ~~ writed by a ingorant Norwegian.
Answar:
The Icelandic Orkneyinga saga is not a strictly historical work. The saga is as much a piece of medieval literature as historical documentation and, written some three centuries after some of the events it records. There is found examples of obviously fictional elements - such as Earl Sigurd's raven banner, the poisoned shirt of Earl Harald, elements of the Hrolf Ganger saga and the foundation of Oslo etc.
You can also see on the Oslo article under history how wrong the Snorre Saga is.
According to the Norse sagas (The Snorre saga), Oslo was founded around 1048 by king Harald Hardråde. Recent archaeological research has uncovered Christian burials from before 1000, evidence of a preceding urban settlement. This called for the celebration of Oslo's millennium in 2000.
This is actually a funny statement as the article contradict it self, and show how ignorant some Norwegians are over for Norwegian History. On the Jelling stones from the late 900´s it say clearly that Harald Bluetooth invaded South Norway ( Viken).
And dont forget Harald Bluetooth of Denmark were the one who Christinized the Danes, and proberly also the Norwegians as the founds of Christian burials says. Harald Bluetooth founded Christania (later renamed to Oslo in the 1600´s) in about 950. Viken and more of Norway was properly a Danish Colonial until the Kalmar Union.
--Comanche cph 02:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I have answered you here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oslo#Answar_to_Barend --Comanche cph 16:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I don´t write the Rollo stone as a proof. But why arent you coment all the other proofs???? What source do you have for the Rollo statue in ålesund was a gift from Rouen? You know that many place names a Rouen match Danish place Names.
But anyway, What´s happen 1000 years later, can´t we use as a proof for anything. --Comanche cph 21:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Im not moving any theory, where do you get that from? But Rollo was not known by any tekst as Hrolf. Only the icelandic saga. So his name on other wiki-pages should either be Rollo or Robert. okay?
Ok, forget the Rollostone, is was not used as a proof, i may delete it! Instend Comment the atleast 10 other sources!
The statue in ålesund was also send to Fargo in USA as a copy. So why and when does the Americans come into this, was he also from America now? I think this make the questian about that gift very distrustful. But anyway. That dosent proof anything, like said before.
The place names was used from Scania, with was they Rollo fleed from with his men. -according to Dudo. And remember that Norway first adopted the Danish language during the Kalmar union in 1300´s to 1800´s, when scholar in Norway learned Danish, instead of the old Norwegian.
All writers from Normandy state that he is Denmark and not the Hrolt Ganger from Iceland. So why should we trust a saga who has been proven with alot of fault and fiction, writed 300 years later?
So in you eyes Dudo of Saint-Quentin, Benoit de St. More and Vilhelm of Jumièges all lived before Snorre, and closer the the events, must be faking??
--Comanche cph 21:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
There is not much evidence that supports the theory that the majority of Normans were Norwegian, they seem to have been Danish (especially from what is now Sweden) and the Normans themselves claim that Rollo was from Denmark, not Norway. Snorre was not a Norman, but an Icelandic, and thus it is more likely that the Norman sources were more correct about the founder of their country than the Icelandic source. Danish or Norwegian nationalism shouldn't come into play here, the fact is that Rollo was Danish, as confirmed by Norman sources, and not Norwegian. - ExplorainCaptain — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.189.209 ( talk) 20:53, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
It is not confermed by norman sources he was danish, not at all. The norman sources say he was from Dacia, witch also could mean Scandinavia. We know from english sources that the anglo saxons rearly distinguished danes from norwegians, calling them all danes. This is because we spoke in "danish tongue". Why should the french be different? Further on, Fakse, or Fasge - could just as well be Fauske, witch is a place in Møre - Norway. This place is, unlike Faxe in Denmark, surrounded by high mountains, as Dudo describes. And acording to the saga litterature Rollo was from Møre. Rollo is the latin name for Hrolf. There is no mentioning of Rollo in any danish sources, but several in the icelandic sagas and the Orkneyingar saga...strange that such a prominant "dane" wouldnt be mentioned in Saxo Grammaticus. No norwegian would remove the danish theory, however allot of danes seems to want to remove the norwegian claim. That is nationalism my friend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk ( talk • contribs) 19:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
As a vote is one of the steps on Wikipedias policy on resolving disputes I would like to suggest one. Add your four~ under the solution you support.
But why a vote? What is wrong this, it´s tells about both theorys!
--Comanche cph 14:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Comanche: If you agree that Rollo could have been Rolf the Ganger then why are you still contesting it in other articles? Inge 15:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I do NOT agree with the pro-Icelandic fairytale. But that´s not the issue here. We have a article tells about both theories of the Duke of Normandy. But it seems like many Norwegians in here, like you, don´t wanna accept that. --Comanche cph 16:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Mattamatikk: I havent yet figured out how to replay on talk, so ill write here. You cant say all other theories are rubbish. Dacia was also a name used to describe all of Scandinavia, not only Denmark. Besides, Dudo says Rollos birthplace was surrounded by high mountains...there are no mountains in Denmark. The french sources say he was from Fakse, however this could easily be Fauske witch is in Møre & Romsdal, the place the Icelandic sagas claim Rollo was from. Fauske is surrounded by high mountains. In most ways, the description Dudo gives fits Norway better. Besides, it is common among historians both in France, Norway and England to believe he was from Norway, judging from the sources of both Dudo and the Icelandic sagas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk ( talk • contribs) 19:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
In the article it says Dacia was also used as another name for Denmark. Seems a bit fishy to me. Can anyone confirm or refute this? The Land 20:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Article says: "Danelaw inhabitants were in no way, shape or form, partial to the Normans". What does it mean? Friends, or enemies?
The result of the proposal was move Rollo of Normandy -> Rollo. Andrewa ( talk) 06:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
All the dukes from William II (the Conqueror) on do not use a standard ducal title. Only the dukes from William I (Longsword) to Richard III use the standard form. Robert II (the Magnificient) is being reconsidered. Rollo should not be moved to Rollo, Duke of Normandy, the consistent title, because he was not really "Duke of Normandy". Rollo is clear enough and simplest. Srnec ( talk) 23:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not clear on the nominaton. What does Srnec want the article moved to? GoodDay ( talk) 17:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. GoodDay ( talk) 17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed this edit because the claim of the Kvenland origin it is based entirely on this website which is not a WP:RS. The rest of the cited sources are WP:Primary sources, most of which doesn't even mention Rollo. There is also a question of undue weight, since this theory doesn't seem generally accepted. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 07:14, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Up till now, the information pertaining to Rollo's origins, based on medieval accounts, have lacked sources. No sources have been included for that at all - zero.
Thus, the medieval accounts in question and the info relating to Rollo's family lineage will now be presented in slightly more detail, with links and some quotes included. Appropriate sources are provided, and more can be added.
The information added is widely discussed in literature and among historians, and the sources given are reliable, verifiable and fitting for Wikipedia standards. The same sources are also used for other closely related information elsewhere in Wikipedia.
The validity of the statement according to which "most would now agree that a certain conclusion can never be reached" cannot be verified. Thus, that claim can be replaced by simply noting that the topic continues to be debated (or continues to be under disagreement). Johansdotter ( talk) 01:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
An explanatory headline and the terms "claimed", "suggests" and "possibly" were added in the text. In addition to secondary sources, primary sources were left for validation of the quotes and translations presented, not for support of "theories" (Note: old sources too can be viewed as "secondary" sources if they tackle and analyze occurrences which happened earlier in the past and if those occurrences had already been reported in primary sources before). The various heroic figures presented in the medieval accounts are interpreted in various ways by historians, some as mythological and others as figures who possibly may have existed, despite of some figures in some cases having been likened to "gods" (compare to Russian tsars, Stalin and Kim Jong Il being likened to gods by many of their followers in more recent history). The following was added to the paragraph:
"In the center of controversy about Rollo's origins are the heroic figures who based on various medieval accounts could be claimed to have shared a bloodline with Rollo. Some of these figures are interpreted to have been mythological or semi-mythological by many historians, while others interpret at least some key figures to have been real. Professor Emeritus Kyösti Julku for instance points out that no errors have been found in the geographical information presented in the Orkneyinga saga. Why should we then suspect that the people discussed in the saga were not real, Julku asks. [source]" Johansdotter ( talk) 08:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
I will back up a bit and go through my objections step by step. You write "The Yngling "Fairhair dynasty" lineage introduced in Hversu Noregr byggðist ("How Norway was settled") and the Orkneyinga and Heimskringla sagas suggests a line of Rollo going back to Fornjót, the primeval "king" who "reigned over" Finland and Kvenland". Fine, that information may or may not be notable for inclusion in the article. Problem is that with the array of sources (the abovementioned citation overkill) you cited I could not find a single one of them mentioning anything about Rollo. So the first step for you is to provide a source that states exactly this. At that point it may be primary or secondary, but of course the wording in the article will vary based on the nature of the source.
Now, the rest of the problem with your additions is that you take this claim (A) of Rollos Ynglinge heritage, and from this you add a bunch of stuff about the Ynglinge dynasty and the supposed relations to that dynasty with older mythological or real individuals (B). None of the stuff in B mentions Rollo or his supposed connection to that dynasty, that connection is something you as an editor has made for us. That is the definition of synthesis, and since you are using mostly primary sources it is probably closer to original research. I suggest you actually take your time to read the Wikipedia:Synthesis and Wikipedia:Original research policies regarding this.
If no scholar has made this connection in reliable secondary sources but you still insist on mentioning it in this article, the only option you have is to propose the theory yourself in a peer reviewed journal or other reliable source, see to it that is generally approved and then we can talk about adding it to Wikipedia. I hope that this has made the nature of my objections clearer to you, and that it may be of help to you in finding acceptable sources for this. -- Saddhiyama ( talk) 10:43, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
-- Mattamatikk ( talk) 02:08, 5 September 2013 (UTC) Question:
1. Did Dudo and Benoist de Sainte-Maure claim that Rollo was from "Fasge", "Faxe" or "Fakse"? And i see the author of the article identifies Fakse with Faxe in Denmark. Well, he should also include the fact that it could be Fauske in Norway. Fauske is, unlike Faxe in Denmark, surrounded by "high alps". Fauske is a place in Møre, witch the Icelandic sagas claim Rollo hailed from.
2. The author specifies that Icelandic and Norwegian historians identified Rollo with "Gange Hrolf" - insinuating that they somewhat stands alone in this theory, witch is higly uncorrect.
The whole section of Rollos origin seems biased.
i've added the malaterra reference to rollo as a norwegian because it is interesting, but i'm a little unclear as to why it's been ignored. malaterra's history is wonky, no doubt. however, he was writing from italy at roughly the same time as the norman invasion of england, which makes him a relatively early source. he would have lacked any of the political motivations that dudo or jumierges may have had to connect the norman dukes to denmark. dudo is certainly known to have fabricated a few things here and there. further, 'dane' is an ambiguous term, in context. with malaterra, there's no reason to think he would have been expressing anything other than the understood knowledge of the time. as far as i can see, he's the best source we've got.
certainly, the malaterra reference is older than the sagas (as they exist in written form).
what i'm a little iffy about is if the translation is accurate. i suppose it could have merely been overlooked, it is after all an italo-norman history rather than a franco-norman history. but i'd have to collectively slap all historians of the period for missing this, if that's the case. so, could we get an expert check the translation? if the translation is accurate, i think this answers the question.
it doesn't, however, corroborate the sagas. not exactly, anyways. it simply fixes rollo's background as norwegian. i'll let the experts take it from there and get back to me on it.
I think this section is biased towards danish origin:
"Rollo was a powerful Viking leader of contested origin. Dudo of Saint-Quentin, in his De moribus et actis primorum Normannorum ducum,[3] tells of a powerful Danish nobleman at loggerheads with the king of Denmark, who had two sons, Gurim and Rollo; upon his death, Rollo was expelled and Gurim killed. William of Jumièges also mentions Rollo's prehistory in his Gesta Normannorum Ducum, but states that he was from the Danish town of Fakse. Wace, writing some 300 years after the event in his Roman de Rou, also mentions the two brothers (as Rou and Garin), as does the Orkneyinga Saga.
Norwegian and Icelandic historians identified Rollo instead with Ganger Hrolf (Hrolf, the Walker), a son of Rognvald Eysteinsson, Earl of Møre, in Western Norway, based on medieval Norwegian and Icelandic sagas. The oldest source of this version is the Latin Historia Norvegiae, written in Norway at the end of the 12th century. This Hrolf fell foul of the Norwegian king Harald Fairhair, and became a Jarl in Normandy. The nickname "the Walker", "Ganger" in Norse, came from being so big that no horse could carry him.
Geoffrey of Malaterra, in his The Deeds of Count Roger of Calabria & Sicily & of Duke Robert Guiscard his brother claims Rollo "sailed boldly from Norway".[4]
The question of Rollo's origins was a matter of heated dispute between Norwegian and Danish historians of the 19th and early 20th centuries, particularly in the run-up to Normandy's millennium anniversary in 1911. Today, the debate continues."
The author make it seem like the general consensus amongst historians is that of Rollos Danish origin, while only Icelandic and Norwegian historians tend to dispute this. Acording to http://snl.no/Gange-Rolv ( /info/en/?search=Store_norske_leksikon) Swedish, Danish and German historians tend to favour the Danish origin, while English, French and Norwegian historians tend to favour the norwegian origin.
I wote for a rewrite. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk ( talk • contribs) 03:12, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
I removed the 2013 in reference to the television series. Since it is on-going as of 2015, I thought referencing the History Channel would be more appropriate and wear better as time goes on. Hamaxides ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 19:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
The intro to this article says that Rollo/Robert was sometimes known as Robert I, but later the article refers to a clearly separate person Robert I assuming the throne of France. It would be helpful if this potential confusion could be clarified? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.174.62.30 ( talk) 08:45, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
both edits undue and reverted. Esnertofidel ( talk) 11:35, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
can one with working knowledge of latin provide a translation of the dais of rollo's grave? google translator only gives partial translation, and is not useful. Esnertofidel ( talk) 18:29, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
So I deleted some statement in the Origin section that claimed Western Norway to be under danish hegemony during Rollos time. This is not historical correct, and was not backed up by sources. Viken however was a disputed erea between Danes and Norwegians during Rollos time. Viken is located in Eastern Norway, not western. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattamatikk ( talk • contribs) 00:51, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
There's no conclusive origin of Rollo, so I see no reason to put one there until historians and archaeologists have found one. We only know he was either Danish or Norwegian, or even both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.185.210.96 ( talk) 21:16, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I agree entirely that we should not merge the identities of Rollo and Ganger Rolf in the early section of the article, as though this was accepted by all historians. Discussion of his origins (with sources) should be balanced and confined to the Origins section. I have overhauled the article in line with this. In the process I have removed the repeated references to a secondary source from 1942 that seems to have been heavily biased in favour of the Ganger Rolf identification and added references to Robert Ferguson's Hammer and the Cross (2009) which incorporates the most recent scholarship and does not seem biased either way. Genie ( talk) 16:49, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I noticed inside the Name section. /info/en/?search=Rollo#Name
His first name Hrólfr -> Rollo -> Robert has been explained. His nickname Göngu -> Ganger -> Walker has not been explained. So maybe we should add it?
FYI, Icelandic to English translation for Göngu https://translate.google.com/?#auto/en/g%C3%B6ngu
Additional Source: https://books.google.com/books?id=5xHntaYOYncC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=carolingian+king+too+big+to+ride+a+horse&source=bl&ots=sSi9Qv83zC&sig=MjuONsy-WAEYNoC98-kW9kithiM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwix6JD8-v3NAhXFVh4KHSnWBYsQ6AEIKzAC#v=onepage&q=carolingian%20king%20too%20big%20to%20ride%20a%20horse&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tigerleapgorge ( talk • contribs) 21:49, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
@ Malik047 and Genie: You are both close to breaching WP:3RR, so please hash out a consensus here on the talk page. Saying "see talk page" in an edit summary is unproductive if neither of you have participated on the talk page (though I see Genie at least commented today). clpo13( talk) 16:58, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
I had read the article last month and found little of substance about the subject "Rollo", there was a lot about opinions of different historians and many comments about items that could not be confirmed, which is hardly surprising considering how long ago he lived. I added a number of items from an 1839 book about the life of Rollo (Duncan, Jonathan (1839). The Dukes of Normandy from the time of King Rollo to the expulsion of King John. Joseph Rickerby and Harvey & Darton.). User:Genie has since deleted all but one reference to the book I had posted and the article has again reverted to little of substance about the subject. No explanation has been given for the deletion of cited information.
The Biography section has almost nothing about his time before France and almost nothing about his time in France. There is almost more about Rollo in the article Charles the Simple. 20% of current "Biography" section says - "Modern analyses of the region's place names reveal Scandinavian settlements stretching from the Seine valley to the coast, and from Rouen to Dieppe. However, compared to settlements along eastern England (especially East Anglia and Yorkshire), the appearance of Norse elements in place names was far from widespread or entrenched. The occurrence of the Gallo-Roman suffix "-ville" after Norse names is evidence for this." - what has this got to do with the biography of Rollo ?
Can we please have something about Rollo and his life in the article, with suitable short comments by various historians if the disagree and with just a covering brief statement that almost nothing can be verified. Ânes-pur-sàng ( talk) 14:24, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
I would be very happy to delete the section on place-names, which really does not tell us anything about Rollo personally. In fact I was thinking about doing that. As for giving no explanation, I have in fact given a detailed explanation earlier on this page of the changes that I felt were required in this article. As I said earlier in the discussion of this page, it really would not help to add speculation from an historian published in 1839. If we cite secondary sources, we should use recent ones, reflecting modern scholarship. Next to nothing can be verified about Rollo's life, as you say. So let's stick to facts that can be confirmed, or at least are acknowledged by modern scholars to be reasonable deductions. Genie ( talk) 14:34, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Added - I have deleted the paragraph on place-names. Genie ( talk) 14:41, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Someone keeps adding irrelevant, unsourced information about a Swiss castle. 219.77.82.21 ( talk) 12:36, 25 January 2017 (UTC)
Mainly a comment. The quote "Old Norse: Hrólfr;" isn't really correct, the Vikings used a different alphabet, known as Runes. Hence is "Rolf" just as good as "Hrólfr". "Rolf" is also a name carried by quite a few men in Sweden, Denmark and Norway still today. I also can see that someone else have stated that "Rollo" wasn't "Gaange Rolf", but according to Scandinavian sources are these two names referring to one and the same person. "Gå" or "Gaa" means "walk" and the reason he didn't ride , appears to be that he was too heavy. Boeing720 ( talk) 00:47, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Same difference, the runes that would have been used (ᚼᚱᚢᛚᚠᚱ in the younger Futhark) express the same phonemes as "Hrólfr" or "Hrolfʀ", depending on if you prefer West or East Norse. "Rolf" is the modern version that developed from East Norse over a period way past Rollo's death (first known occurrence on the undated Forshedastenen as the variant "Rhulf", some time past the late 11th century), and thus not equivalent. "Hrólfr"/"Hrolfʀ" are also the academically accepted spellings of the name in Old Norse, at least using the Latin alphabet. 134.76.63.198 ( talk) 13:39, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
Danish:
Andui furent Daneis, mais mult furent di[uers]
Rou fist alkes a dreit, Hasteins fist a envers (Andresen edition, page 36, available on
Internet Archive)
I assume the 'di[uers]' is because of manuscript damage. Hasteins is Hastein. Rough translation is 'they were both Danish, but they were very different ... what Rollo did the right way up, Hasteins did upside down' (this is of course a metaphor, and I can't find a better way to express it). Renard Migrant ( talk) 13:56, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
Britannica is a tertiary source. The content that is being repeatedly restored is sourced to Britannica, is repetitious and somewhat off-topic, and has some overlinking and grammar issues. Nor is the History Channel a good source either. Also, as an aside, it isn't "Robert 1 of France" .... Please self-revert and actually discuss the concerns here on the talk page. -- Ealdgyth ( talk) 14:50, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
Oh?! Where is picture of the statue of Rollo? I think there had been the photo in this page , and we should get it back to this Wikipedia page!— TRAMPJP ( talk) 07:57, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE says that "images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative". MOS:LEADIMAGE goes on to say that the lead image should be the "type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works" and that "lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic."
Now, a 13th-century illustration from a genealogy book in which all illustrated people look more or less the same, all dressed in 13th-century clothes too, is neither significant nor the type of image used in high-quality reference works. It conveys no information about Rollo, thus serving no purpose other than decorating the infobox. Surtsicna ( talk) 17:00, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
The use of the image is perfectly OK. I see no problems with significance and relevance, and it is not only "primarily decorative" which would rather apply to the picture of a flower.-- Berig (talk) 20:05, 20 February 2022 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing the point here, but for the life of me, why would the use of the representative image of Rollo be any different from the use of the representative image of Baldwin IV of Jerusalem that Surtsicna is currently putting through for Good Article status? In fact, all of the medieval art work images in that article are depictions.— Bill Reid | ( talk) 18:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Alright, why is this considered unnoteworthy? He shows up in the base game for a fabricated sequence but is then completely cut from the actual historical event he is known for even though he did actually appear in early concept art for it. 144.51.12.38 ( talk) 01:47, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
The paragraph that starts with "Rollo is the great-great-great-grandfather ... " seems to have weird edits.
I was editing a clarification of the text, as Empress Matilda (related to Rollo) is a woman and therefore the House of Plantagenet has maternal influence from her. It was removed due to claims of missing sources, even when the text itself says empress Matilda sired Henry II. Either remove the entire Paragraph or rewrite the "Descendants" text stating that Rollo only had descendants through Matilda. ZaneHistory ( talk) 18:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
Thofinn is fist name , Robert I was taken at conversion . Retired to Orkney in " retirement " 2600:1002:B054:9D47:0:2A:BB6A:8301 ( talk) 19:34, 15 January 2023 (UTC)