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The result of the move request was: pages moved. ( non-admin closure) Steel1943 ( talk) 17:00, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
– Not the primary topic. See for example, page views and google search. DrKay ( talk) 16:42, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Speedy close. Duplicate RM and as noted we don't use slashes ( non-admin closure). Crouch, Swale ( talk) 16:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Malani →
Malani/Roko Malani – The requested move denies a full background of the historical names of both Roko Malani and Malani. The person that was alive 200 years ago has maternal links to the family at the latter part of the article. Disambiguation only arises when information are in pieces and not packaged together with academic sourced Fijian history. Why were the quoted articles including the Malani definition in the Fijian dictionary deleted?
Saqiwa (
talk) 13:47, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Saqiwa, only in a few very rare cases such as in articles about royal houses do we talk about an entire family tree. The family tree must be notable in and of itself, otherwise we just link to related articles. The article jumps between a Roko Malani who died in 1833 to a Roko Malani who was alive in 1879, and is confusing as it jumps between lineages without a clear connection between them. Which sources discuss Roko Malani's (1754–1833) descendants as a whole? – Thjarkur (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Thjarkur Ok go ahead and change the title to Roko Malani. Roko Malani (Lau) who died in 1833 is the grandnephew of the Roko Malani (Lau) who was visiting another province (Ra) in 1879 and named the child that was born on the morning of his visit as Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani. They were from different provinces. By coincidence in 1910, Roko Malani's younger brother, (Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei)'s daughter, Adi Senirewa was visiting her cousin, Adi Maopa (Ratu Sukuna's mother)at the Ra Provincial Office in Nanukuloa when the people of Nakorotubu decided to traditionally approach her to be the wife of the young Roko Malani who was a constabulary officer in Levuka town. Saqiwa ( talk) 05:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Thjarkur Other Roko Malani persons are listed for clarity to the article. Saqiwa ( talk) 09:43, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Marchjuly ( talk) Ok, as you have requested in my Saqiwa ( talk), I will take a break but please understand that I was not trying to compete and be on top of other editors. I just hope that fellow administrators/editors may be able to learn a thing or two from my observation and concerns at the oppressive and strongman tactics to my contributions in 'Other' Roko Malani, Nakorotubu, Roko Tui Bau, Monarchy of Fiji, Tui Viti, Vunivalu of Bau, etc. The first Roko Malani article was not well sourced and I actually assisted with the 2 back up sources, likewise for Niumataiwalu as a high chief from Verata, etc. Ironically, the selective and unfair editing observed from the past continues with the unjustified removal of my contributions to articles like 'Other' Roko Malani, Nakorotubu, Roko Tui Bau, Monarchy of Fiji, Tui Viti, Vunivalu of Bau, etc. I shun your view that I will not go far but all that I was trying to do was to assist Wikipedia with complete information and not disjointed to misrepresent and benefit one particular group. As I have raised in the past, historical information about Fiji have been used to further political, commercial and individual agendas. Even for the article on Nakorotubu, the deletion of the correct sub district names like Kavula is really strange considering that back up sources like the UNICEF report and the Wikipedia Fiji House of Chiefs clearly outlines the correct names that I have been trying to edit correctly. For your information, the Nakorotubu marine area contains minerals and oil deposits which have been targeted with misinformation to create instability and dispute with the local people in order to justify access opportunities by external interested parties. Ok, fellow Wikipedia editors, for everybody's peace, I will now take a walk. God Bless Fiji. Saqiwa ( talk) 06:31, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
This next part is more in response to your "Break from Roko Malani article" post that this thread has now become. It's not really the kind of thing discussed on article talk pages but I'll post it here as a courtesy.I think what needs to be determined is what the real focus of this article is intended to be. Is "Roko Malani" the name of a specific person or is it them name of some sort of hereditary/tribal title? It currently reads as if it's about a particular individual named "Roko Malani" and if that's the case then that's what the article content should be about; it shouldn't include content about other individuals named "Roko Malani". In other words, it shouldn't be made into a disambiguation page to provide information about all individuals named "Roko Malani".
For example, look at the page John Smith. That is what Wikipedia refers to as a "disambiguation page" or "dab page". Basically, a dab page is list of all Wikipedia pages which have a common title, but have been disambiguated accordingly to allow separate Wikipedia articles about each "John Smith" mentioned on the page to be created. All of the entries on the dab page represent articles about different people named John Smith. It's basically a page of Wikilinks to each of these individual articles, sort of like a Wikipedia phone book for people named "John Smith". So, if there's lots of people throughout Fijian history named "Roko Malani", then it might be appropriate to create a dab page titled "Roko Malani", where links to all of their respective articles can be listed; however, it would be inappropriate to add all of that information to any one single Wikipedia article about a particular "Roko Malani". Instead, if you think these other "Roko Malani" are notable enough per WP:BIO to have Wikipedia articles created about them, then you can create these articles. I would suggest that you work on a draft first and submit it to WP:AFC for review, but that's up to you. If it turns out that some or all of these "Roko Malani" are not considered to be Wikipedia notable for stand-alone articles to be written about them, then content about them shouldn't be added to an article about this "Roko Malani" simply because they share the same name. Now, if there's some kind of connection (family, etc.) between this "Roko Malani" and the others that goes beyond just sharing the same name, then perhaps that can be mentioned in proper context. Editors shouldn't, however, try to WP:COATRACK an article about other Roko Malanis into this article because that's neither how Wikipedia works nor is intended to work.
On the other hand, if "Roko Malani" is more of a hereditary/religious/tribal title like King of England, Dali Lama, Pope, etc., then the page should be written as such and not as if it's about a particular person named "Roko Malani". It might then be possible to provide some content about each person who has held the title of "Roko Malani" throughout history, but that shouldn't be the focus of the article and the content about each person should be limited per WP:NOTEVERYTHING and also be supported by citations to reliable sources for verification purposes.
-- Marchjuly ( talk) 08:02, 15 October 2019 (UTC)If you want to take a break from this article for awhile or even from editing altogether, then you can decide to do so. We are, after all, WP:VOLUNTEERS. However, you need to try and understand that it's not the purpose of this article or any Wikipedia article to try and resolve real world problems regarding Fiji and how it's being reported or not be reported in the reliable sources. Wikipedia's role is not to seek out the ultimate truth about things, but only reflect what reliable sources (ideally independent and secondary) are saying about things.
References
1. Roko Malani (1879-1933) [1] of Ra. Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1) was the son of Ratu Amenatave Dewalarua and Seleima Veinoyaki and grandson of Ra chief, Ratu Meli Salabogi (1) who is mentioned in the W.J. Smythe report. [2].Married Adi Asinate Senirewa from the Vuanirewa clan, the daughter of Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei (younger brother of Roko Malani (2) (died 1890) that named him at birth).
2. Roko Malani (1937-2013) [3] of Ra. Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (2), the brother of Adi Laufitu Malani and grandson of Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1) traditionally endorsed and spent a night at Vatanitawake in Bau during the Vunivalu of Bau installation in 1959. [4] [5]
References
Saqiwa ( talk) 04:41, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
Marchjuly ( talk). Your latest comment not to force the article on Roko Malani on (talk) raised to me a question if this is a really free editing online article? I thought that we are all volunteers here and no group of phantom editors should be dictating or feel good about a particular article, so what is really the problem? My editing history proves that there is indeed ulterior motives with the continuous changes in reasonings. Refer to the latest Nakorotubu editing history today, it is obvious that some Fiji historical information is definitely being suppressed and covered up. Saqiwa ( talk) 05:32, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Saqiwa (
talk) 05:50, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
I have no problems with your threats since you can selectively pull your justifications.Even Thjarkur has not responded for days to the above edits but you just jump in when I have posted something on after waiting for days. Saqiwa ( talk) 06:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Interesting that the main Roko Malani article was all of sudden clean up to be up to standard with the wikipedia rules. Question, why was the other 2 Roko Malani articles not assisted in the same way. All of a sudden, sources from ISBN books became part of the article. Why was not the same extent of assistance given to the 2 Roko Malani from Ra? Saqiwa ( talk) 07:09, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
[[Ra Province|Ra]]
so that it leads to the correct target article. --
Marchjuly (
talk) 07:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
References
Saqiwa ( talk) 12:08, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
[[Ra]]
. The correct way to link to "
Ra Province" is [[Ra Province]]
. If you simply link to the word "Ra" it will take you to the article
Ra which is about an Egyptian god and doesn't have anything to do with Fiji. If you want to just use the word "Ra" in your posts and link to the article about "Ra Province", you're going to have to
WP:PIPE format the link as [[Ra Province|Ra]]
; it will look like
Ra, but it will take the reader to the correct target article. If you read this and still don't understand what I mean, click on
Ra (formatted as [[Ra]]
) and then click on
Ra (formatted as [[Ra Province|Ra]]
and perhaps you'll understand better. Both links look the same to the reader, but they are formatted to take the reader to different articles. You don't need to add references to this talk page like this: <ref>reference name</ref>
. You can do that, but the software will automatically display the references at the bottom of this page by default unless you also use a template like
Template:Reflist-talk to tell the software where to display the references. If the references are displayed at the bottom of the page, they will eventually be separated from the relevant discussion when someone adds a new post at the bottom of the page. Sometimes when discussing sources on a talk page, it's easier just to link to them like [url address source name]
with an
embedded link instead; for example, if I wanted to discuss a source, I could add a link to it as [www.example.com sourcename]
in the relevant sentence which would look like
sourcename to the reader. Embedded links shouldn't be added to articles, but they are OK to use on talk pages.I'm not sure what you're trying to show with the Fijian-English dictionary source; perhaps that can be used to show where the name "Malani" comes from in a Wikipedia article like
Malani, but it doesn't real establish the notability of any of the three Roku Malani's being discussed on this talk page, and it's doesn't clearly establish any relationship between the three (at least not as you're describing things). You need to be careful and avoid
WP:SYN and not combine your personal knowledge/interpretations with what a reliable source says or combine what's found in different reliable sources into something neither of them are really saying. I've looked at
page 159 of the dictionary you're trying to cite and there is no entry for "Malani"; it's possible you've gotten the page number wrong since there is a mention of "Malani" as a name on page 153 in the definition for "Mala" as in "Mala ni vosa", but only states that it's a "family name in Lau originally, but now famously at Nakorotubu, Ra." It doesn't say anything about these three Roku Malanis or them being related to one another maternally. That may be something you know from school or somewhere else and it may be true, but
Wikipedia requires verifiability and dictionary doesn't support the content you want to add.If these other two Roko Milanis aren't suitable for you to write separate Wikipedia articles about (i.e. they are not
Wikipedia notable), then it may be possible to add their names to an article like
List of Fijians. Since they don't already have articles written about them, other editors may disagree with doing so and ask you to provide a citation to a reliable source in support. You can try adding their names and a single sentence about them to that article (be consistent with the other entries). If your edit is challenged by another editor, then follow
WP:BRD and discuss things at
Talk:List of Fijians. --
Marchjuly (
talk) 01:43, 19 October 2019 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated Stub-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The result of the move request was: pages moved. ( non-admin closure) Steel1943 ( talk) 17:00, 20 September 2019 (UTC)
– Not the primary topic. See for example, page views and google search. DrKay ( talk) 16:42, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Speedy close. Duplicate RM and as noted we don't use slashes ( non-admin closure). Crouch, Swale ( talk) 16:28, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
Malani →
Malani/Roko Malani – The requested move denies a full background of the historical names of both Roko Malani and Malani. The person that was alive 200 years ago has maternal links to the family at the latter part of the article. Disambiguation only arises when information are in pieces and not packaged together with academic sourced Fijian history. Why were the quoted articles including the Malani definition in the Fijian dictionary deleted?
Saqiwa (
talk) 13:47, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Saqiwa, only in a few very rare cases such as in articles about royal houses do we talk about an entire family tree. The family tree must be notable in and of itself, otherwise we just link to related articles. The article jumps between a Roko Malani who died in 1833 to a Roko Malani who was alive in 1879, and is confusing as it jumps between lineages without a clear connection between them. Which sources discuss Roko Malani's (1754–1833) descendants as a whole? – Thjarkur (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Thjarkur Ok go ahead and change the title to Roko Malani. Roko Malani (Lau) who died in 1833 is the grandnephew of the Roko Malani (Lau) who was visiting another province (Ra) in 1879 and named the child that was born on the morning of his visit as Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani. They were from different provinces. By coincidence in 1910, Roko Malani's younger brother, (Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei)'s daughter, Adi Senirewa was visiting her cousin, Adi Maopa (Ratu Sukuna's mother)at the Ra Provincial Office in Nanukuloa when the people of Nakorotubu decided to traditionally approach her to be the wife of the young Roko Malani who was a constabulary officer in Levuka town. Saqiwa ( talk) 05:55, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@ Thjarkur Other Roko Malani persons are listed for clarity to the article. Saqiwa ( talk) 09:43, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Marchjuly ( talk) Ok, as you have requested in my Saqiwa ( talk), I will take a break but please understand that I was not trying to compete and be on top of other editors. I just hope that fellow administrators/editors may be able to learn a thing or two from my observation and concerns at the oppressive and strongman tactics to my contributions in 'Other' Roko Malani, Nakorotubu, Roko Tui Bau, Monarchy of Fiji, Tui Viti, Vunivalu of Bau, etc. The first Roko Malani article was not well sourced and I actually assisted with the 2 back up sources, likewise for Niumataiwalu as a high chief from Verata, etc. Ironically, the selective and unfair editing observed from the past continues with the unjustified removal of my contributions to articles like 'Other' Roko Malani, Nakorotubu, Roko Tui Bau, Monarchy of Fiji, Tui Viti, Vunivalu of Bau, etc. I shun your view that I will not go far but all that I was trying to do was to assist Wikipedia with complete information and not disjointed to misrepresent and benefit one particular group. As I have raised in the past, historical information about Fiji have been used to further political, commercial and individual agendas. Even for the article on Nakorotubu, the deletion of the correct sub district names like Kavula is really strange considering that back up sources like the UNICEF report and the Wikipedia Fiji House of Chiefs clearly outlines the correct names that I have been trying to edit correctly. For your information, the Nakorotubu marine area contains minerals and oil deposits which have been targeted with misinformation to create instability and dispute with the local people in order to justify access opportunities by external interested parties. Ok, fellow Wikipedia editors, for everybody's peace, I will now take a walk. God Bless Fiji. Saqiwa ( talk) 06:31, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
This next part is more in response to your "Break from Roko Malani article" post that this thread has now become. It's not really the kind of thing discussed on article talk pages but I'll post it here as a courtesy.I think what needs to be determined is what the real focus of this article is intended to be. Is "Roko Malani" the name of a specific person or is it them name of some sort of hereditary/tribal title? It currently reads as if it's about a particular individual named "Roko Malani" and if that's the case then that's what the article content should be about; it shouldn't include content about other individuals named "Roko Malani". In other words, it shouldn't be made into a disambiguation page to provide information about all individuals named "Roko Malani".
For example, look at the page John Smith. That is what Wikipedia refers to as a "disambiguation page" or "dab page". Basically, a dab page is list of all Wikipedia pages which have a common title, but have been disambiguated accordingly to allow separate Wikipedia articles about each "John Smith" mentioned on the page to be created. All of the entries on the dab page represent articles about different people named John Smith. It's basically a page of Wikilinks to each of these individual articles, sort of like a Wikipedia phone book for people named "John Smith". So, if there's lots of people throughout Fijian history named "Roko Malani", then it might be appropriate to create a dab page titled "Roko Malani", where links to all of their respective articles can be listed; however, it would be inappropriate to add all of that information to any one single Wikipedia article about a particular "Roko Malani". Instead, if you think these other "Roko Malani" are notable enough per WP:BIO to have Wikipedia articles created about them, then you can create these articles. I would suggest that you work on a draft first and submit it to WP:AFC for review, but that's up to you. If it turns out that some or all of these "Roko Malani" are not considered to be Wikipedia notable for stand-alone articles to be written about them, then content about them shouldn't be added to an article about this "Roko Malani" simply because they share the same name. Now, if there's some kind of connection (family, etc.) between this "Roko Malani" and the others that goes beyond just sharing the same name, then perhaps that can be mentioned in proper context. Editors shouldn't, however, try to WP:COATRACK an article about other Roko Malanis into this article because that's neither how Wikipedia works nor is intended to work.
On the other hand, if "Roko Malani" is more of a hereditary/religious/tribal title like King of England, Dali Lama, Pope, etc., then the page should be written as such and not as if it's about a particular person named "Roko Malani". It might then be possible to provide some content about each person who has held the title of "Roko Malani" throughout history, but that shouldn't be the focus of the article and the content about each person should be limited per WP:NOTEVERYTHING and also be supported by citations to reliable sources for verification purposes.
-- Marchjuly ( talk) 08:02, 15 October 2019 (UTC)If you want to take a break from this article for awhile or even from editing altogether, then you can decide to do so. We are, after all, WP:VOLUNTEERS. However, you need to try and understand that it's not the purpose of this article or any Wikipedia article to try and resolve real world problems regarding Fiji and how it's being reported or not be reported in the reliable sources. Wikipedia's role is not to seek out the ultimate truth about things, but only reflect what reliable sources (ideally independent and secondary) are saying about things.
References
1. Roko Malani (1879-1933) [1] of Ra. Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1) was the son of Ratu Amenatave Dewalarua and Seleima Veinoyaki and grandson of Ra chief, Ratu Meli Salabogi (1) who is mentioned in the W.J. Smythe report. [2].Married Adi Asinate Senirewa from the Vuanirewa clan, the daughter of Roko Vilisoni Tuiketei (younger brother of Roko Malani (2) (died 1890) that named him at birth).
2. Roko Malani (1937-2013) [3] of Ra. Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (2), the brother of Adi Laufitu Malani and grandson of Ratu Kuliniyasi Roko Malani (1) traditionally endorsed and spent a night at Vatanitawake in Bau during the Vunivalu of Bau installation in 1959. [4] [5]
References
Saqiwa ( talk) 04:41, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
Marchjuly ( talk). Your latest comment not to force the article on Roko Malani on (talk) raised to me a question if this is a really free editing online article? I thought that we are all volunteers here and no group of phantom editors should be dictating or feel good about a particular article, so what is really the problem? My editing history proves that there is indeed ulterior motives with the continuous changes in reasonings. Refer to the latest Nakorotubu editing history today, it is obvious that some Fiji historical information is definitely being suppressed and covered up. Saqiwa ( talk) 05:32, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Saqiwa (
talk) 05:50, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
I have no problems with your threats since you can selectively pull your justifications.Even Thjarkur has not responded for days to the above edits but you just jump in when I have posted something on after waiting for days. Saqiwa ( talk) 06:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
Interesting that the main Roko Malani article was all of sudden clean up to be up to standard with the wikipedia rules. Question, why was the other 2 Roko Malani articles not assisted in the same way. All of a sudden, sources from ISBN books became part of the article. Why was not the same extent of assistance given to the 2 Roko Malani from Ra? Saqiwa ( talk) 07:09, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
[[Ra Province|Ra]]
so that it leads to the correct target article. --
Marchjuly (
talk) 07:37, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
References
Saqiwa ( talk) 12:08, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
[[Ra]]
. The correct way to link to "
Ra Province" is [[Ra Province]]
. If you simply link to the word "Ra" it will take you to the article
Ra which is about an Egyptian god and doesn't have anything to do with Fiji. If you want to just use the word "Ra" in your posts and link to the article about "Ra Province", you're going to have to
WP:PIPE format the link as [[Ra Province|Ra]]
; it will look like
Ra, but it will take the reader to the correct target article. If you read this and still don't understand what I mean, click on
Ra (formatted as [[Ra]]
) and then click on
Ra (formatted as [[Ra Province|Ra]]
and perhaps you'll understand better. Both links look the same to the reader, but they are formatted to take the reader to different articles. You don't need to add references to this talk page like this: <ref>reference name</ref>
. You can do that, but the software will automatically display the references at the bottom of this page by default unless you also use a template like
Template:Reflist-talk to tell the software where to display the references. If the references are displayed at the bottom of the page, they will eventually be separated from the relevant discussion when someone adds a new post at the bottom of the page. Sometimes when discussing sources on a talk page, it's easier just to link to them like [url address source name]
with an
embedded link instead; for example, if I wanted to discuss a source, I could add a link to it as [www.example.com sourcename]
in the relevant sentence which would look like
sourcename to the reader. Embedded links shouldn't be added to articles, but they are OK to use on talk pages.I'm not sure what you're trying to show with the Fijian-English dictionary source; perhaps that can be used to show where the name "Malani" comes from in a Wikipedia article like
Malani, but it doesn't real establish the notability of any of the three Roku Malani's being discussed on this talk page, and it's doesn't clearly establish any relationship between the three (at least not as you're describing things). You need to be careful and avoid
WP:SYN and not combine your personal knowledge/interpretations with what a reliable source says or combine what's found in different reliable sources into something neither of them are really saying. I've looked at
page 159 of the dictionary you're trying to cite and there is no entry for "Malani"; it's possible you've gotten the page number wrong since there is a mention of "Malani" as a name on page 153 in the definition for "Mala" as in "Mala ni vosa", but only states that it's a "family name in Lau originally, but now famously at Nakorotubu, Ra." It doesn't say anything about these three Roku Malanis or them being related to one another maternally. That may be something you know from school or somewhere else and it may be true, but
Wikipedia requires verifiability and dictionary doesn't support the content you want to add.If these other two Roko Milanis aren't suitable for you to write separate Wikipedia articles about (i.e. they are not
Wikipedia notable), then it may be possible to add their names to an article like
List of Fijians. Since they don't already have articles written about them, other editors may disagree with doing so and ask you to provide a citation to a reliable source in support. You can try adding their names and a single sentence about them to that article (be consistent with the other entries). If your edit is challenged by another editor, then follow
WP:BRD and discuss things at
Talk:List of Fijians. --
Marchjuly (
talk) 01:43, 19 October 2019 (UTC)