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This article is beyond a joke, even if we are to accept Eamon Collins account of Nairac's ending in the meat machine (which is the widespread belief around the borderlands anyway). For a guy who disappeared without trace, the extent of knowledge held by one Wikipedia editor about all the treatment he allegedly received is quite impressive. Our omnipresent editor knows, for instance, that Nairac 'was subjected to a succession of exceptionally savage assaults in an attempt to extract information which would have put other lives and future operations at serious risk'. That the mystery of this man is solved here on Wikipedia after 29 years is a truly astounding feat, and I hereby nominate our editor for Wikipedian of the Year award. I'm particularly moved by the strength and courage which Nairac showed in the face of adversity, and we are told that 'These efforts to break Captain Nairac's will failed entirely. Weakened as he was in strength-though not in spirit-by the brutality'- ah yes, how very British of him (Who's writing this: Nick Griffith?) but our omniscient Wikipedia editor continues indicating to us that he knows how many people were in this matter-of-fact room, 'he yet made repeated and spirited (aha ye Gods! that British spirit again!) attempts to escape, but on each occasion was eventually overpowered by the weight of the numbers against him.' All I want to ask now is this: will the writer of this piece kindly present himself to the local crown forces and confess to what is clearly on his conscience? Is mise, El Gringo 06:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Spotted that the military honor he received says it was his "fourth tour"- anyone any details on that? I will be adding in some details Ken Livingstone gave in his 1987 maiden speech to the Holroyd entry.
Fluffy999 23:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
An interesting source of clarification might be the book Faith and Duty written by Nick Curtis MM. (That's his nom de plume but his Military Medal is real.) Nick worked intelligence in Northern Ireland in the seventies and witnessed Nairac's activities first-hand. His testimony is less than flattering.
Tony G
I've changed the name to McErlaine based on the source I added, Toby Harnden's Bandit Country. However there is an online source that states the name used was McAlevey. Bandit Country was published before the Sunday Mirror article, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the Sunday Mirror journalist doesn't have the knowledge or contacts that Harnden does, and a mistake was probably made by the Mirror. Other opinions welcome. One Night In Hackney 303 18:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Tag added as we have allegations that Nairac knew killers etc. Absolute BS. Smear job Weggie 14:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Nairac was certainly a Roman Catholic, but "devout"? Is there any proof of this loosely (if frequently) used adjective? Millbanks 07:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Re Roman Catholic The only evidence that I know of that he was a devout catholic is that he attended a staunchly catholic school. Thannad —Preceding comment was added at 16:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Ref. Edit 11.12.07 Please do not make any add any additional material to the paragraphs I have added as these are taken directly from the source material, unless you have access to the book? This is a controvertial topic so we need this to be 100% free from questions of verifiability Kernel Saunters (talk) 14:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Kernel Saunters: The edits adjusting facts stated are made from my personal knowledge of Robert Nairac's early life. Thankyou Kbservices ( talk) 15:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Kbservices ( talk) 13:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
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The article doesn't say. jeanne ( talk) 13:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I would imagine with that name she was in fact British but in all the photos that I've seen of Nairac, he seems to have had a rather swarthy, foreign aspect to his appearance.Yet, if his mother had been from Mauritius jeanne ( talk) 11:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC), that fact would surely have been noted. jeanne ( talk) 11:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
The question arises as to how Nairac ever hoped to palm himself off as a member of any IRA group, with his accent and appearance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.254.83 ( talk) 11:03, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I would have to agree on the dubiousness of this. Firstly the source varies each time it tells the story, using the term reputed on one occasion, attributing it to someone on another, and stating it as fact on another occasion. Secondly there is no record, other than this source or one Irish newspaper which seemingly repeeats this possibly anecdotal story from the book, of Meehan having ever been a boxer. 2 lines of K 303 13:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The lead as it currently stands does not adequately summarise Nairac's life.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 09:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
The article fails to use the term "Glenanne gang", the name given to the UDR, RUC, UVF members he was allegedy in collusion with.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 09:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
This cat should be removed as he was born in Mauritius to English parents which would make him a Mauritian of English/British ancestry, not the other way around.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 13:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Can we use a non-free image for this article? -- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 17:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm surprised the article does not mention his assocation with Captain Julian Anthony "Tony" Ball. Nairac and Ball led Four Field Survey Troop according to Captain Fred Holroyd which is cited in the Barron Report.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 19:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
As far as I can see having access to all the given sources there is no evidence of him having French ancestry. Having a French sounding name is evidence of nothing and we are trying to keep articles free of WP:OR Kernel Saunters ( talk) 11:46, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
The article says he left Northern Ireland for a period in mid-summer 1975. Kernel Saunters, would you happen to have a source that gives the dates for his absence from Ireland? I'm trying to establish whether he was actually present in Northern Ireland when the Miami Showband attack occurred. Stephen Travers is adament that he oversaw the operation; however, Dillon points out that there is no evidence to back up Travers' claim, additionally one of Dillon's sources says Nairac had not been present at Buskhill on 31 July 1975.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 12:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
The article says Nairac was promoted to captain in September 1975. What was his rank in July 1975? Was he indeed an officer at the time of the Miami Showband massacre? It's strange that Travers was shown just a photo of Nairac after the attack. It could have been done to trap Travers into saying he was the man at the attack when police knew he was out of Ireland at the time. That would make his claim that a British Army officer having been present fall apart. Another thing, we must remember that the IRA have a very good propaganda machine. It's likely that all of this "Nairac having done this and that" is created to justify their brutal killing of him. Even the Pat Finucane Centre says one has to be careful assigning killings to Nairac simply because of his reputation.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 14:34, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
14:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
The article does not say whether or not Nairac was impersonating a real OIRA member (Danny McErlaine) or just gave that as his fictional name but by coincidence there happened to have been an actual IRA member by that name. If Nairac was impersonating McErlaine, the article needs to use the word impersonate.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 14:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not satisfied that the lead provides an adequate summary of the key points in the article. It really needs expansion.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 17:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I am working to establish some hard facts about the career of the late Captain Robert Nairac GC, Grenadier Guards. Captain Nairac, who was working undercover, was abducted, tortured and murdered by the Provisional IRA in May 1977. His body has never been found and the file on his murder has never been closed.
Nairac features in many books, notably The Dirty War by Martin Dillon and Bandit Country: the IRA and South Armagh by Toby Harnden. He is also treated with some attention in the writings of Fred Holroyd and Colin Wallace; neither of whom is a wholly reliable source. In addition, many Press articles have treated, and continue to treat, Nairac and his murder.
Faced with such a plethora of material; some of it misleading, much of it hard to verify, it is hard to establish even a timeline. Much published information is open to doubt. To give a few examples:
An Irish Connection. It is well-known that Nairac developed an early affinity for Ireland and often spent academic holidays there with his friends, the sons of Lord Killanin. However there are persistent rumours that he was actually of southern Irish descent. I have not been able to find any confirmation of this. These rumours seem to have been started by Nairac himself and have been repeated by later biographers. Nicky Curtis states, presumably because he was told by Nairac, that “his father was Irish and Catholic”. This is not true, although Curtis may think it is. In fact, Nairac’s father was Catholic and Franco-Mauritian. His mother was 100% English and Protestant. I think that Nairac very much wished that he had had some Irish blood. Can anyone cast any light on this persistent rumour? I'd be grateful to hear from them.
Place of birth. Robert Nairac was definitely born in 1948 in Mauritius, where his parents lived at the time. However at least one author asserts that he was born in Sunderland, in northern England. Nairac’s parents really did live in Sunderland when he was small. This may have helped to cause the confusion. To complicate matters, the City of Sunderland has adopted Nairac as a “famous son”, along with Sir Henry Havelock and the ancestors of George Washington, who lived nearby at Washington Old Hall. A project is in hand to erect a wall of remembrance to all Sunderland soldiers who have died in action since World War II. (Sunderland has lost its fair share of soldiers in Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan). Nairac’s name will appear on it.
A French Connection. This is much better substantiated. The Nairacs were of French descent, originally from the Bordeaux region. The name is still found there. The wine Chateau Nairac once belonged to the family, although they sold the vineyard in the early nineteenth century. However the Nairac name stuck. Robert Nairac’s branch settled in the Ile Maurice (Mauritius) as planters and landowners and remained there after the island became British, as did most of the French plantocrats. Robert Nairac’s photographs show him looking very southern French, with tough, dark good looks, slightly reminiscent of a young Jean-Paul Belmondo. He has cousins in France (to one of whom I have spoken), Mauritius, the UK and the USA. Most of them seem to be tri-nationals: UK, French and Mauritian.
Old Catholic Gentry. Yes and no. Luke Jennings describes boyhood visits to Nairac’s family’s “almost absurdly beautiful” manor house in Gloucestershire, Master’s Keep. However this house was bought, not inherited. No doubt the Nairacs, with their distinction and aptitude for field sports, fitted easily enough into county society. But they were not long-established in Gloucestershire, nor did they belong to the circle of old English Catholic recusant families whom Evelyn Waugh celebrates in Brideshead Revisited and the Sword of Honour trilogy. Again, they seem to have fitted in well there, too. The Nairac brothers’ education at Ampleforth would have helped this process. Not being an old-established family, they did not have a “family regiment” or a “county regiment” that Robert might have joined as of right. In the event he set his sights high: the Grenadier Guards. He was accepted by that elite regiment, thanks to the connections of his friend Julian Malins’ father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metellus1 ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
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What form did the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains investigation take? Was it a full public inquiry with witnesses summoned? Or did they just go along and ask the British Army a few questions and run into the Lisburn Lie Machine? You would think so if they accepted at face value claims by British Army soldiers that they remember the whereabouts of Nairac on a specific date over 40 years later. Was it led by trained investigators? Geoff Knupfer is described as a forensic scientist, which is a wholly different job. It's one investigation, as was Hidden Hand and the investigations of other people. It is a breach of WP:NPOV to say this one investigation discredits all the others. I also don't see the need to include it twice when I already attempted to include the relevant points in each section of alleged collusion. Please discuss any disputed changes here rather than continuing to edit war, thank you. In addition there's no need to include Kingsmills in the lead since it isn't included in the article (I would suggest Nairac's supposed involvement in that is a fringe theory that deserves no weight whatsoever, and I cannot even find the origin of the idea), and the Miami Showband accusation has not been dismissed by eyewitness evidence since the reference states "However, he said he could never be certain whether or not it was Capt Nairac", which is not dismissing Nairac at all. FDW777 ( talk) 15:49, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Place of birth- his elder brother and sisters were born in Kidderminster. He was not born in the UK. If he was born in Sunderland the birth was not registered. Mothers maiden names was Dykes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.129.78.119 ( talk) 19:57, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
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This article is beyond a joke, even if we are to accept Eamon Collins account of Nairac's ending in the meat machine (which is the widespread belief around the borderlands anyway). For a guy who disappeared without trace, the extent of knowledge held by one Wikipedia editor about all the treatment he allegedly received is quite impressive. Our omnipresent editor knows, for instance, that Nairac 'was subjected to a succession of exceptionally savage assaults in an attempt to extract information which would have put other lives and future operations at serious risk'. That the mystery of this man is solved here on Wikipedia after 29 years is a truly astounding feat, and I hereby nominate our editor for Wikipedian of the Year award. I'm particularly moved by the strength and courage which Nairac showed in the face of adversity, and we are told that 'These efforts to break Captain Nairac's will failed entirely. Weakened as he was in strength-though not in spirit-by the brutality'- ah yes, how very British of him (Who's writing this: Nick Griffith?) but our omniscient Wikipedia editor continues indicating to us that he knows how many people were in this matter-of-fact room, 'he yet made repeated and spirited (aha ye Gods! that British spirit again!) attempts to escape, but on each occasion was eventually overpowered by the weight of the numbers against him.' All I want to ask now is this: will the writer of this piece kindly present himself to the local crown forces and confess to what is clearly on his conscience? Is mise, El Gringo 06:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
Spotted that the military honor he received says it was his "fourth tour"- anyone any details on that? I will be adding in some details Ken Livingstone gave in his 1987 maiden speech to the Holroyd entry.
Fluffy999 23:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
An interesting source of clarification might be the book Faith and Duty written by Nick Curtis MM. (That's his nom de plume but his Military Medal is real.) Nick worked intelligence in Northern Ireland in the seventies and witnessed Nairac's activities first-hand. His testimony is less than flattering.
Tony G
I've changed the name to McErlaine based on the source I added, Toby Harnden's Bandit Country. However there is an online source that states the name used was McAlevey. Bandit Country was published before the Sunday Mirror article, and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the Sunday Mirror journalist doesn't have the knowledge or contacts that Harnden does, and a mistake was probably made by the Mirror. Other opinions welcome. One Night In Hackney 303 18:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Tag added as we have allegations that Nairac knew killers etc. Absolute BS. Smear job Weggie 14:35, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Nairac was certainly a Roman Catholic, but "devout"? Is there any proof of this loosely (if frequently) used adjective? Millbanks 07:46, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Re Roman Catholic The only evidence that I know of that he was a devout catholic is that he attended a staunchly catholic school. Thannad —Preceding comment was added at 16:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Ref. Edit 11.12.07 Please do not make any add any additional material to the paragraphs I have added as these are taken directly from the source material, unless you have access to the book? This is a controvertial topic so we need this to be 100% free from questions of verifiability Kernel Saunters (talk) 14:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Kernel Saunters: The edits adjusting facts stated are made from my personal knowledge of Robert Nairac's early life. Thankyou Kbservices ( talk) 15:09, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Kbservices ( talk) 13:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
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The article doesn't say. jeanne ( talk) 13:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I would imagine with that name she was in fact British but in all the photos that I've seen of Nairac, he seems to have had a rather swarthy, foreign aspect to his appearance.Yet, if his mother had been from Mauritius jeanne ( talk) 11:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC), that fact would surely have been noted. jeanne ( talk) 11:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
The question arises as to how Nairac ever hoped to palm himself off as a member of any IRA group, with his accent and appearance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.254.83 ( talk) 11:03, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I would have to agree on the dubiousness of this. Firstly the source varies each time it tells the story, using the term reputed on one occasion, attributing it to someone on another, and stating it as fact on another occasion. Secondly there is no record, other than this source or one Irish newspaper which seemingly repeeats this possibly anecdotal story from the book, of Meehan having ever been a boxer. 2 lines of K 303 13:42, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
The lead as it currently stands does not adequately summarise Nairac's life.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 09:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
The article fails to use the term "Glenanne gang", the name given to the UDR, RUC, UVF members he was allegedy in collusion with.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 09:42, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
This cat should be removed as he was born in Mauritius to English parents which would make him a Mauritian of English/British ancestry, not the other way around.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 13:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Can we use a non-free image for this article? -- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 17:44, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm surprised the article does not mention his assocation with Captain Julian Anthony "Tony" Ball. Nairac and Ball led Four Field Survey Troop according to Captain Fred Holroyd which is cited in the Barron Report.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 19:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
As far as I can see having access to all the given sources there is no evidence of him having French ancestry. Having a French sounding name is evidence of nothing and we are trying to keep articles free of WP:OR Kernel Saunters ( talk) 11:46, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
The article says he left Northern Ireland for a period in mid-summer 1975. Kernel Saunters, would you happen to have a source that gives the dates for his absence from Ireland? I'm trying to establish whether he was actually present in Northern Ireland when the Miami Showband attack occurred. Stephen Travers is adament that he oversaw the operation; however, Dillon points out that there is no evidence to back up Travers' claim, additionally one of Dillon's sources says Nairac had not been present at Buskhill on 31 July 1975.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 12:21, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
The article says Nairac was promoted to captain in September 1975. What was his rank in July 1975? Was he indeed an officer at the time of the Miami Showband massacre? It's strange that Travers was shown just a photo of Nairac after the attack. It could have been done to trap Travers into saying he was the man at the attack when police knew he was out of Ireland at the time. That would make his claim that a British Army officer having been present fall apart. Another thing, we must remember that the IRA have a very good propaganda machine. It's likely that all of this "Nairac having done this and that" is created to justify their brutal killing of him. Even the Pat Finucane Centre says one has to be careful assigning killings to Nairac simply because of his reputation.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 14:34, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
14:44, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
The article does not say whether or not Nairac was impersonating a real OIRA member (Danny McErlaine) or just gave that as his fictional name but by coincidence there happened to have been an actual IRA member by that name. If Nairac was impersonating McErlaine, the article needs to use the word impersonate.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 14:39, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I'm not satisfied that the lead provides an adequate summary of the key points in the article. It really needs expansion.-- Jeanne Boleyn ( talk) 17:42, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
I am working to establish some hard facts about the career of the late Captain Robert Nairac GC, Grenadier Guards. Captain Nairac, who was working undercover, was abducted, tortured and murdered by the Provisional IRA in May 1977. His body has never been found and the file on his murder has never been closed.
Nairac features in many books, notably The Dirty War by Martin Dillon and Bandit Country: the IRA and South Armagh by Toby Harnden. He is also treated with some attention in the writings of Fred Holroyd and Colin Wallace; neither of whom is a wholly reliable source. In addition, many Press articles have treated, and continue to treat, Nairac and his murder.
Faced with such a plethora of material; some of it misleading, much of it hard to verify, it is hard to establish even a timeline. Much published information is open to doubt. To give a few examples:
An Irish Connection. It is well-known that Nairac developed an early affinity for Ireland and often spent academic holidays there with his friends, the sons of Lord Killanin. However there are persistent rumours that he was actually of southern Irish descent. I have not been able to find any confirmation of this. These rumours seem to have been started by Nairac himself and have been repeated by later biographers. Nicky Curtis states, presumably because he was told by Nairac, that “his father was Irish and Catholic”. This is not true, although Curtis may think it is. In fact, Nairac’s father was Catholic and Franco-Mauritian. His mother was 100% English and Protestant. I think that Nairac very much wished that he had had some Irish blood. Can anyone cast any light on this persistent rumour? I'd be grateful to hear from them.
Place of birth. Robert Nairac was definitely born in 1948 in Mauritius, where his parents lived at the time. However at least one author asserts that he was born in Sunderland, in northern England. Nairac’s parents really did live in Sunderland when he was small. This may have helped to cause the confusion. To complicate matters, the City of Sunderland has adopted Nairac as a “famous son”, along with Sir Henry Havelock and the ancestors of George Washington, who lived nearby at Washington Old Hall. A project is in hand to erect a wall of remembrance to all Sunderland soldiers who have died in action since World War II. (Sunderland has lost its fair share of soldiers in Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan). Nairac’s name will appear on it.
A French Connection. This is much better substantiated. The Nairacs were of French descent, originally from the Bordeaux region. The name is still found there. The wine Chateau Nairac once belonged to the family, although they sold the vineyard in the early nineteenth century. However the Nairac name stuck. Robert Nairac’s branch settled in the Ile Maurice (Mauritius) as planters and landowners and remained there after the island became British, as did most of the French plantocrats. Robert Nairac’s photographs show him looking very southern French, with tough, dark good looks, slightly reminiscent of a young Jean-Paul Belmondo. He has cousins in France (to one of whom I have spoken), Mauritius, the UK and the USA. Most of them seem to be tri-nationals: UK, French and Mauritian.
Old Catholic Gentry. Yes and no. Luke Jennings describes boyhood visits to Nairac’s family’s “almost absurdly beautiful” manor house in Gloucestershire, Master’s Keep. However this house was bought, not inherited. No doubt the Nairacs, with their distinction and aptitude for field sports, fitted easily enough into county society. But they were not long-established in Gloucestershire, nor did they belong to the circle of old English Catholic recusant families whom Evelyn Waugh celebrates in Brideshead Revisited and the Sword of Honour trilogy. Again, they seem to have fitted in well there, too. The Nairac brothers’ education at Ampleforth would have helped this process. Not being an old-established family, they did not have a “family regiment” or a “county regiment” that Robert might have joined as of right. In the event he set his sights high: the Grenadier Guards. He was accepted by that elite regiment, thanks to the connections of his friend Julian Malins’ father. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metellus1 ( talk • contribs) 16:08, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
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On 04 Feb 2016 – Peter Wilson (Northern Ireland kidnapping and disappearance case) ( talk · · hist) was requested to be moved by Tbhotch ( t · c). Since that move might have an impact on the titling of this article, please see the discussion and comment there. Tiggerjay ( talk) 18:04, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
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What form did the Independent Commission for the Location of Victims' Remains investigation take? Was it a full public inquiry with witnesses summoned? Or did they just go along and ask the British Army a few questions and run into the Lisburn Lie Machine? You would think so if they accepted at face value claims by British Army soldiers that they remember the whereabouts of Nairac on a specific date over 40 years later. Was it led by trained investigators? Geoff Knupfer is described as a forensic scientist, which is a wholly different job. It's one investigation, as was Hidden Hand and the investigations of other people. It is a breach of WP:NPOV to say this one investigation discredits all the others. I also don't see the need to include it twice when I already attempted to include the relevant points in each section of alleged collusion. Please discuss any disputed changes here rather than continuing to edit war, thank you. In addition there's no need to include Kingsmills in the lead since it isn't included in the article (I would suggest Nairac's supposed involvement in that is a fringe theory that deserves no weight whatsoever, and I cannot even find the origin of the idea), and the Miami Showband accusation has not been dismissed by eyewitness evidence since the reference states "However, he said he could never be certain whether or not it was Capt Nairac", which is not dismissing Nairac at all. FDW777 ( talk) 15:49, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Place of birth- his elder brother and sisters were born in Kidderminster. He was not born in the UK. If he was born in Sunderland the birth was not registered. Mothers maiden names was Dykes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.129.78.119 ( talk) 19:57, 27 February 2021 (UTC)