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Hey I just cleaned up some vandalism that completely destroyed the "early life" discussion. I'd watch out for a repeat offence. Sbfenian1916 ( talk) 14:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Parts of this article sounds imperialistic: ...and as a statesman, since retreat, or even delay, would have put back the civilization of India for years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.79.196 ( talk) 02:19, 13 March 2005 (UTC)
Hornplease 07:05, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I thought no one would glorifies colonial past anymore. No one in right mind, writing about these events would write words like villains, Mohemmadans (condesending slangs for Muslims) etc. This certainly is a language that *no one* uses anymore.
The 1911 Britannica is a historical document, which presents us with a facts colored by the spirit of the time. To judge its language by our standards is, at least, an anachronysm.
I think it is we today who are biased, we are against the British Empire these days it seems, and it seems as if you are considered bad for liking the Empire and recognising it's contributions...
I agree, the contributions of the British Raj was undeniable, and the PC attitudes of today's readers is sickening when you consider that it was only the British Raj that allowed India to emerge as a united nation in the first place, by which time the Raj had become obselete, leading to today's foolish derogative remarks about it. The comments made about Mohammedans and other comments like 'natives' should be seen as they are, a insight into the beliefs of a culture long since past, which inevitably had both good points and bad.
I don't get what you mean that 'contributions were undeniable' (since it is just an unsubstantiated proposition I can very much say that British sucked life out of people) or 'British Raj that allowed India to emerge as a united nation in the first place'. I thought that British created partition on the basis of religion: There was nothing as Pakistan before Raj. I also find is sickening that someone can a find anything good with Raj. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.56.158.35 ( talk • contribs)
The myth that the British Empire "united" India for the first time has been widely discredited.
I think a lot of people agree that this article needs a complete rewrite. Clive is such an important topic and his influence on Indian and British history is major but I hope none of the contributors will mind me saying that this article really needs attention badly. I don't feel enough of an expert on the subject myself but I hope nobody will be offended by my tagging it for a complete rewrite -- this is not intended to reflect on any particular contributor so far. The reasons I believe it needs a rewrite are:
-- Richard Clegg 16:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I DISAGREE. Much of what you find 'offensive' is actually your own bias, Ragib. "Native" simply means people that were 'native' to the land; i.e. inhabitants before the 'immigrants' arrived. "Mohammedan," while arcaic, means "Muslims." There is nothing derogatory about either of these terms. And, while statements supporting the 'civilizing mission' ideology need to be scaled back, they should not be done so at the expense of the historic record. For example, if we said "the British bandit Robert Clive barbarically invaded India," well that would be spinning in the other direction. Like it or no, Clive was just the top of a large bureaucracy that, without him, probably would have succeeded in the conquest of India anyway. 70.89.83.190 23:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I actually think the article in its current form contains too much useful information to be completely re-written, so I am removing the re-write tag. The lengthy quotes from Macaulay should perhaps be cut (I will reference them and leave them for the time being) although they are classics of Historical writing. I have done my best to remove the more objectionable phrases and give a more neutral POV, but more needs to be done. Sikandarji 08:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that I'd rather make do with what the learned authors of the 1911 Britannica had to say than the half-baked opinions of 16-year-old high school students and net nerds with an interest in history. I really doubt that any community alteration will improve the content here. Most changes are likely to be anachronistic revisions designed to paint the british as evil imperial villains oppressing the poor natives of bongo bongo land.--Corinthian 20:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I think there's a lot which needs doing to this article. I've made a start. Hopefully lots of others will join in. This is an important article.
Any other opinions? Hopefully we can work together to make this a really good article. (Having said taht, I'm going to be away for a few days but I hope to contribute more soon). -- Richard Clegg 23:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I have a bit of a soft spot for both the 1911 Britannica and Macaulay (such portentous prose) so I can't quite bring myself to wield the knife (also we do risk losing a lot of very detailed info). However I appreciate that much of it is far from being NPOV, and given that we can't change the quotations from Macaulay (I've checked them against the original text to ensure they are accurate) they may have to be axed. Sikandarji 23:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
OK -- I've pushed on with this and tackled the start of his second journey to India. I hope people find my language an improvement -- I've also corrected some parts which I think were incorrect (Deputy Governor, not Governor). I've tried to present the facts neutrally. My main source was John Kaey's book that I cite. Estimates of forces are contemporary and I state that they may be overestimates simply because that would be a tendancy. I have cut down the section on the Black Hole of Calcutta -- there is no need to go into how many were killed in this article since the interested reader can read the article itself. I hope what I have said about it is uncontestable (I do not have the Busteed reference). I have also removed some of the history of Calcutta (this is not the place to talk about Job Charnock, interesting as he is.
I have tried not to make statements which would either glorify or vilify Clive. (The reason I mention his refusal to take treasure after Fort St. David is that at the time and for some time afterwards, in Britain, Clive was criticised for being a profiteer and that will be addressed later in the article when I get to editing that). Please feel free to edit as you see fit. -- Richard Clegg 20:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I have added the weasel tag . Bharatveer 09:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please remove "In general, however, the state of Bengal under Clive's administration after Plassey was a wretched one, as the Company sought to extract the maximum revenue possible from the peasantry to fund military campaigns, and corruption was widespread amongst Company officials, whilst Mir Jafar was also compelled to extortions on a vast scale in order to replenish his treasury, so efficiently emptied by Clive." or cite references to prove it is true. Ditto "Macaulay's ringing endorsement of Clive seems ludicrous today, as Bengal suffered from appalling exactions and famine under his rule and that of his immediate successors; his own ambition and desire for personal gain set the tone for the administration of the province until the Permanent Settlement 30 years later, as Bengal's unhappy peasantry were bled dry by the corrupt exactions of Company Officials and Zamindars." - 86.130.233.183 19:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The article appears much improve, hence the new tag. Some citations would be nice and some more facts. Otherwise I see no reason for cleanup any longer
'Parts of this article sounds imperialistic: '...and as a statesman, since retreat, or even delay, would have put back the civilization of India for years;'since it is just an unsubstantiated proposition I can very much say that British sucked life out of people';'I also find is sickening that someone can a find anything good with Raj'
I think I can probably find something good about the raj, how about this? Without the British Empire, the modern Indian nation would very likely not exist; the area probably would have been subjugated by a Japanese dictatorship since 1940, and it is incredibly likely that democracy would not flourish there. What is more, had the British not colonised India, the French or Portuguese would have, in which case, the attainment of Indian independence would probably have been an even bloodier affair than it was in Indochina, and Angola! In summary, India, and the numerous gangs of politically correct (and usually historically incorrect) thugs have a few quite significant things to thank Great Britain and Her Empire for, along with men like Robert Clive, and the Duke of Wellington(regardless of their motives), who made the aforementioned possible.
Comment added by User:DHR1815
Political correctness,these days looks like anything that contradicts the "white man's burden" is PC. Robert Clive ruined a once thriving Bengal economy and lead to the 1770-1773 famine of Bengal. I DO NOT see how Clive can be viewed as positive by anyone. On the contrary it was the loot from the colonies primarily India (India,Pakistan and Bangladesh) that transformed Britain from a poor third world country to a leading power,how is that for un-PC. Non-PC can cut both ways. We have nothing to thank the British Empire for, other than looting us dry. Any case even if Japan had annexed India in 1940,5 years of Japanese domination would be nowhere as destructive as 200 years of British misrule. I can even argue in a non-PC manner that the present immigrants from South Asia and Carribean give Britain a moral compass that it lacks. So please quit trying to argue as to the greatness of British Rule
If you genuinely believe these things to be historical facts rather than your own political opiniopns coloured by your nationalist convictions, then I recommen you cite some credible sources and then show how they attach not only to the life of Robert Clive but also to this very discussion. 90.197.233.36 ( talk) 02:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
First, prove that Bengal was thriving, and give a citation for a reputable source. Second, offer some evidence that "loot" transformed Britain. As for the accusation of "looting dry" this is simply rhetoric, not an honest, historically based attempt to discuss the issue. I won't waste time on the idiocy of arguing about a hypothetical 5 years of Japanese rule. As for Britain's moral compass, your claims are far more racist than anything said about Clive.
A person who conspirated in a very evil manner to ruin the independence of a great nation of old heritage and wisdom should not be considered a great man under any pre-text. That should be the spirit of mankind in thr 21st century.
freemind
That's all very pretty to think, but it's not history. It seems to me that this entire thread of conversation is positively *laced* with bias and self-interest. This article is not about the British Raj; nor is it about the 21st Century POV; nor is it about the "spirit of mankind," whatever the crap that means. The article is about Robert Clive, and I would submit that reliable historical sources about Robert Clive ought to be relied upon (whatever their biases) before, and if necessary to the exclusion of, Wikipedia participants who cannot provide comparable or superior sources. At any rate, the article-less brand of English people are using in this thread is so abominable as to be incomprehensible in some instances; I suggest you deal with that issue before you consider rewriting anything. In conclusion: get over yourselves, folks. This preoccupation with ego-political bickering is a major reason Wikipedia is disregarded -and when regarded, disrespected- by historians, teachers and intelligent people everywhere. -Maalox
If anyone is interested, kindly read this article of mine written sometime ago: Robert Clive: His compulsions. You may follow this link: [1]
I have not had the time to read the article here, nor the debate. May be I will come later when I have time. I came to collect some details; incidently I saw the debate here. -- Ved from Victoria Institutions 15:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
History cannot be altered for the sake of political correctness. It would be wrong to undermine Lord Clive's contributions to the East India Company and to India. The British Empire created India as we know it today and the East India Company's role in uniting the native provinces was undeniable.-Guest —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.1.226.91 ( talk) 11:20, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
The India 'as we know it' was not created by British or the East India company: it would be a very strong statement if we did not consider the longer history of Indian peninsula. India as an entity with periods of unity alternating with periods of disunity has been documented from at least from King Ashoka (304-322BCE)period. The last such empire was Mughal King Aurangezeb (1618 to 1907 AD). Teh empires ruled by two emperors, two millenium apart, encompass majority of what was known as India and thier empires are similar to the British Empire of indian subcontinent. To argue that British united India, is historical shortsightedness. But it is the fact that british on this occasion helped uniting India and there were other strong contenders for uniting India at that time including the Marathas. For more discussion on these see Amarthya sen's Argumentative Indian. (Amartya Sen. 2005 The argumentative Indian, Allen Lane Publishers Barani76 ( talk) 12:07, 10 May 2013 (UTC) Barani76
After having read this entire page, I can say nothing more except it smacks or glorifying the gory deds Clive did. And he paid for it at the end too by committing suicide. All those people who want to talk about Clive should look into whether he went stark mad leading him to suicide. That would be the real lesson to learn from Clive: not to do evil deeds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.190.94 ( talk) 03:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Yours is an interesting perspnal and moral perspective but, as you would be the first to agree, it does not seem underpinned by any verifiable fact nor to be relevant to the discussion of the subject. 90.197.233.36 ( talk) 02:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The practices of the Early East Indian company officials are documented by Harvard Social Historian- Nicholas Dirks in his book 'The scandal of empire'. (The scandal of empire-India and the creation of Imperial Britain, Nicholas Dirks, 2006, Harvard Univeristy Press ISBN-13: 978-8178241753). He argues with reasonable evidence that the East India company employees were involved in fraud, usury, and murders (of their own employees if anyone tried to put the house in order if necessary) let alone twisting the historical facts. The deeds of East India company officials and the consequences (famine of bengal 1770), has created lot of uneasiness among the politicians, MPs - some of whom wanted to bring the people to account. i.e perhaps they are not personal enemies of Robert Clive. The end of Clive by suicide has been attributed to the end of his political ambitions- which is a possible explanation (in the absence of other reliable explanations). Barani76 ( talk) 12:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The scond part of this needed a better cleanup than I could provide but I've watered down some of the cheerleading for Empire and some of the Indian reaction, neither of which are much help in creating a credible article. Also, cut out some of the Indian-English eupemisms and love of multiple-clause sentences to make the second half a little more readable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.147.121 ( talk) 08:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The text still isnt perfect but worst of the imperialistic Anglocentric language has been progressively extracted. The citations are still lacking, though. Does anyone have an ongoing problem with the neutrality of the article as it stands? Mdw0 ( talk) 04:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure if this should be included in the article because it is minor. Clive or his descendant of the same name was mentioned in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984) during the banquet scene in Pangkot palace. Indiana Jones remarks, "there are events more interesting, going back to the time of Clive." (The quote may not be exact as I am quoting from my memory.)
Just a thought. I was going to add it myself but didn't know if it would be a meaningful contribution to the article.
History_Educator —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.33.200.95 ( talk) 02:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
It says that his occupation was a plumber. (See the caption under the first picture.) Is this true??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.33.200.95 ( talk) 02:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
As a young Indian, I do not care that Robert Clive and the BEIC came and colonized the subcontinent. I am not defending imperialism in any way. Neither am I providing an apologia for the wanton economic exploitation of the land perpetrated by the colonisers. Whether we like it or not we had always been overrun by invaders throughout our long history. Why? Maybe the fault is with in ourselves and not the proverbial stars. Much smaller countries and peoples have defended their land and driven out the invaders against greater odds. But such a thing never happened in the course of Indian history. Even the much hailed first war of independence of 1857 ended in failure. The foreign invaders virtually came, saw, conquered and then ruled, happily ever after.
We Indians could never provide a united front to the invaders as we were consumed in bickering with each other and being at each others throats all the time. And the cherry on this pie was the regressive philosophy of ‘Chaturvarnya’ which rejected egalitarianism and relegated a large section of the population to the margins and kept them subservient. To these people, it did not matter who the rulers of the land were, as they remained oppressed, forever at the mercy of their upper caste masters , forever denied the fruits of equality, liberty and justice. So I don’t think we, Indians should look at the actions of Robert Clive through any moralistic goggles. He did whatever he did by the rules of the playbook of his day and presumably had many admirable qualities. Otherwise how would you explain his plethoric successes in the sub continent? All said and done we are pretty much even for our colonial experience. Some might say we are even better for it. I don’t give a damn and if at all, let us learn from our mistakes and move on. ( Mksuraj ( talk) 20:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC))
"Clive was awarded with an Irish peerage and was created Baron Clive of Plassey co Clare and bought lands in County Limerick and County Clare, Ireland. He named part of his lands near Limerick City, Plassey. Following Irish independence, these lands became state property. In the 1970s a technical college, which later became University of Limerick, was built at Plassey." I take it he did this before he committed suicide yet I would like to point out that this quote comes after the part about his death. I know this is niggling but it does disrupt the flow of the end of the article. 161.76.194.213 ( talk) 11:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
His trial is a considerably more important event than has been given credit for. The effect on british views and especially those of radical writers, such as Thomas Paine, is very important in world history. Essentially it paraded atrocities committed by the nobility like Lord Clive in front of the entire nation. I know this is painted with a broad brush, I am writing a paper on this, I will find sources and bring them back. Just thought I would put in a word first. Adrianturcato ( talk) 18:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Order of Bath Award. The statement he was invested with the Order in 1772, rather late in his life, merits checking against other sources. The painting by George Clive (illustration to this article) dated c.1764 shows him wear what I identify as the collar of the Order with the pendant 'three crowns' badge that became solely that of the Order's Civil Division when the Order was divided into classes long after Clive's lifetime. Cloptonson ( talk) 18:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC) A check in the Complete Peerage revealed he was awarded the Order in 1764 but not invested with it until 1772. Cloptonson ( talk) 18:33, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Death - Unhelpful Citation. The citation to the statement he committed suicide by "stabbing himself with a penknife" offers no evidence about the alleged means; it links to a BBC news article about Clive's tortoise which only states Clive "committed suicide". The circumstances of his death merit more learned investigation. He is also alleged to have cut his throat and (more commonly) to have died from overdose of opium (which could have been accidental, given the circumstances of his health). Appreciably, it does not help that his death appears not to have been subject to coroner's inquest or autopsy, and that it occurred before the introduction of death certification in the 19th century. Cloptonson ( talk) 19:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC) I have removed the link, inputting its full details against the account, later in the article, of the tortoise, and outlined the varying reported causes of his death, cited to two modern biographers who produced identically titled books on Clive, both published same year (1974). Cloptonson ( talk) 19:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
"The European Trading companies still acknowledged the The relationship between the Europeans in India was influenced by a series of wars and treaties on mainland Europe." Whom - the Emperor? 211.225.30.91 ( talk) 11:44, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
In the mention of the movie, "Clive of India", there is a note after Colin Clive - that he wasn't a relation to Robert Clive. In Colin Clive's page, he is listed as being related. Jtyroler ( talk) 21:01, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
It seems surprising that there isn't a specific section in which Clive's dictatorial behaviour is criticised. In many circles, especially in India, Clive is seen as little more than a brutal imperialist. Not mentioning this negative legacy at all pushes the POV out of balance. Mdw0 ( talk) 07:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
The VA Museum notes 52 folios for the Small Clive Album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aero13792468 ( talk • contribs) 12:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
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Why not including "His Excellency"? Gz deleted ( talk) 03:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
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Clive, despite his military accomplishments, was never appointed to the Board of Directors (known as Court of Directors then). He was seen by elite class as nothing more than a handy killing machine with zero business acumen.
Please add this information to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4C28:194:520:5E26:AFF:FEFE:75AC ( talk) 07:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved Armbrust The Homunculus 14:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Robert Clive → Clive of India – On 15 December 2013 User:Solomon7968 moved this article from Robert Clive, 1st Baron Clive to Robert Clive citing WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. I don't think either apply. WP:COMMONNAME would certainly be "Clive of India", and WP:CONCISE says that "[t]he basic goal of conciseness is balancing brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic in a way the average person searching for it will recognize": I'd consider myself moderately well-educated, but if I had been asked in a pub-quiz what Clive of India's first name was, I'd have had to think for a bit. I really don't think the "average person" searching for this subject would go for "Robert Clive" as their first option. Opera hat ( talk) 02:04, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.This needs broader discussion than the scope of this requested move; perhaps input form Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United Kingdom etc. My hypothesis is taking out the "1st Baron Clive" part from the article title will help in increasing page views in the long run. Indeed the article traffic has increased after the move. People of similar level of notability like say Warren Hastings are perfectly recognisable in their real name although the average reader (i.e. not so well versed in Indian history) have no clue that Warren is "Hastings of India". Solomon 7968 15:30, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Adam Smith was a contemporary of Clive, so he is a WP:PRIMARY source and can be only used for regular facts with due caution. Anything bordering analysis (such as criticism) needs secondary academic sources (there are truckloads of them in this case). Any objection to this? Solomon 7968 08:17, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Quote: was a British officer and soldier of fortune who established the military and political supremacy of the East India Company in Bengal. He is credited with securing India, and the wealth that followed, for the British crown. END OF QUOTE
Most of the adjectives and suggestive and descriptive words are wrong, and mischievous. The general spirit of most of this and similar articles on India pages reflect the general low quality standards of the modern Pakistan/Indian academic textbooks.
Clive was not a British 'officer' nor a soldier of fortune. He secured not 'India', if this term is to mean conquering a nation called India. He was possibly the person who laid the foundation of the nation that can be called British-India.
The suggestive words: securing the wealth that followed' is also quite mischievous. It does seem to suggest that the East India Company was on a looting mission in the subcontinent, instead of doing trade, in a location that had no sensible law and order mechanism or machinery. East India Company, though it functioned under the licence of the British Crown, was not on a looting mission.
Moreover the article writer seems to suggest in the above words that the common people of the subcontinent were fools to support the East India Company. The real fact was that in a geographical location wherein around 99% of the common man was under slavish conditions, not only the East India Company, but even its greatest official Robert Clive was seen as a social liberator force. Everything good and of substantial quality in the Indian subcontinent (Pakistan, India & Bangladesh)can be traced back to the endevours of East India Company.
It is possible that Indian subcontinent academic article writers may not agree with the suggestion that the common man does also want some liberation from the shackles placed on them by the governing folks of their country. Indian academics currently gather between 40 to 75 thousand rupees per month for 13 months a year, and a huge or rather astronomical pension/perks, in a nation where the common man's monthly earnings are just between 2000 to 15000 rupees with no other social security. These self-conceited, selfish academics can afford to waste everyone's time by writing suggestive writings about the greatest social liberator force this subcontinent has seen in a couple of thousand years.
The question is how is Wikipedia allowing these crooks to write such nonsense that simply suggests that the people who supported the East India Company were fools, and these grand, conceited modern Indian academics are sort of know-alls.
See these words:
QUOTE: In 1744 Clive's father acquired for him a position as a "factor" or "writer" END OF QUOTE it seems to suggest that Clive's father got in a great post in a great company, when actually it was just a job in a English trading company.
QUOTE: working as little more than a glorified assistant shopkeeper, END OF QUOTE. Does the writer have some problem that he has to insert adjectives to each and every mention of any work or doing? His or her personal prejudices are entering into an arena wherein at best he or she can at best be mentioned as unfit to enter.
SIGNED-- 117.204.80.58 ( talk) 05:38, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
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In the lead, it says "when Clive first arrived, India was dominated by the atrocities of the Mongols...". Surely Mongols should actually be Mughals. Indian history is not my specialty, but I am not aware of any Mongol presence in 18th century India, which was dominated by the Mughal empire. Can someone who actually knows a thing or two about 18th century India check this out and fix it if necessary? If I'm right, it's quite an embarrassing error... A2soup ( talk) 00:34, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
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The lede section of this article contains the following sentence, which was added by screen name "103.140.83.43" on 8 November 2019:
"He caused the biggest genocide in the history of Bengal and India and killed over one million Bengalis after winning the Battle of Plassey."
This sentence is false. I have therefore deleted it because:
The Great Bengal famine is estimated to have killed 10 million Indians, including Bengalis, but this famine occurred in 1770, after Clive had left India in 1767.
VexorAbVikipædia ( talk) 08:24, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
This article is quite poor. Clive's reputation is not controversial, it is blatantly negative. I will be amending the article based on scholarship produced in last 20-30 years. HISTRS applies. TrangaBellam ( talk) 11:47, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Who was appointed for the first time by the Robert climb to draw the map of India 2405:205:1586:4FD4:0:0:F68:28AC ( talk) 05:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Hey I just cleaned up some vandalism that completely destroyed the "early life" discussion. I'd watch out for a repeat offence. Sbfenian1916 ( talk) 14:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Parts of this article sounds imperialistic: ...and as a statesman, since retreat, or even delay, would have put back the civilization of India for years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.171.79.196 ( talk) 02:19, 13 March 2005 (UTC)
Hornplease 07:05, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I thought no one would glorifies colonial past anymore. No one in right mind, writing about these events would write words like villains, Mohemmadans (condesending slangs for Muslims) etc. This certainly is a language that *no one* uses anymore.
The 1911 Britannica is a historical document, which presents us with a facts colored by the spirit of the time. To judge its language by our standards is, at least, an anachronysm.
I think it is we today who are biased, we are against the British Empire these days it seems, and it seems as if you are considered bad for liking the Empire and recognising it's contributions...
I agree, the contributions of the British Raj was undeniable, and the PC attitudes of today's readers is sickening when you consider that it was only the British Raj that allowed India to emerge as a united nation in the first place, by which time the Raj had become obselete, leading to today's foolish derogative remarks about it. The comments made about Mohammedans and other comments like 'natives' should be seen as they are, a insight into the beliefs of a culture long since past, which inevitably had both good points and bad.
I don't get what you mean that 'contributions were undeniable' (since it is just an unsubstantiated proposition I can very much say that British sucked life out of people) or 'British Raj that allowed India to emerge as a united nation in the first place'. I thought that British created partition on the basis of religion: There was nothing as Pakistan before Raj. I also find is sickening that someone can a find anything good with Raj. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.56.158.35 ( talk • contribs)
The myth that the British Empire "united" India for the first time has been widely discredited.
I think a lot of people agree that this article needs a complete rewrite. Clive is such an important topic and his influence on Indian and British history is major but I hope none of the contributors will mind me saying that this article really needs attention badly. I don't feel enough of an expert on the subject myself but I hope nobody will be offended by my tagging it for a complete rewrite -- this is not intended to reflect on any particular contributor so far. The reasons I believe it needs a rewrite are:
-- Richard Clegg 16:18, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I DISAGREE. Much of what you find 'offensive' is actually your own bias, Ragib. "Native" simply means people that were 'native' to the land; i.e. inhabitants before the 'immigrants' arrived. "Mohammedan," while arcaic, means "Muslims." There is nothing derogatory about either of these terms. And, while statements supporting the 'civilizing mission' ideology need to be scaled back, they should not be done so at the expense of the historic record. For example, if we said "the British bandit Robert Clive barbarically invaded India," well that would be spinning in the other direction. Like it or no, Clive was just the top of a large bureaucracy that, without him, probably would have succeeded in the conquest of India anyway. 70.89.83.190 23:21, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I actually think the article in its current form contains too much useful information to be completely re-written, so I am removing the re-write tag. The lengthy quotes from Macaulay should perhaps be cut (I will reference them and leave them for the time being) although they are classics of Historical writing. I have done my best to remove the more objectionable phrases and give a more neutral POV, but more needs to be done. Sikandarji 08:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
I think that I'd rather make do with what the learned authors of the 1911 Britannica had to say than the half-baked opinions of 16-year-old high school students and net nerds with an interest in history. I really doubt that any community alteration will improve the content here. Most changes are likely to be anachronistic revisions designed to paint the british as evil imperial villains oppressing the poor natives of bongo bongo land.--Corinthian 20:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I think there's a lot which needs doing to this article. I've made a start. Hopefully lots of others will join in. This is an important article.
Any other opinions? Hopefully we can work together to make this a really good article. (Having said taht, I'm going to be away for a few days but I hope to contribute more soon). -- Richard Clegg 23:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I have a bit of a soft spot for both the 1911 Britannica and Macaulay (such portentous prose) so I can't quite bring myself to wield the knife (also we do risk losing a lot of very detailed info). However I appreciate that much of it is far from being NPOV, and given that we can't change the quotations from Macaulay (I've checked them against the original text to ensure they are accurate) they may have to be axed. Sikandarji 23:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
OK -- I've pushed on with this and tackled the start of his second journey to India. I hope people find my language an improvement -- I've also corrected some parts which I think were incorrect (Deputy Governor, not Governor). I've tried to present the facts neutrally. My main source was John Kaey's book that I cite. Estimates of forces are contemporary and I state that they may be overestimates simply because that would be a tendancy. I have cut down the section on the Black Hole of Calcutta -- there is no need to go into how many were killed in this article since the interested reader can read the article itself. I hope what I have said about it is uncontestable (I do not have the Busteed reference). I have also removed some of the history of Calcutta (this is not the place to talk about Job Charnock, interesting as he is.
I have tried not to make statements which would either glorify or vilify Clive. (The reason I mention his refusal to take treasure after Fort St. David is that at the time and for some time afterwards, in Britain, Clive was criticised for being a profiteer and that will be addressed later in the article when I get to editing that). Please feel free to edit as you see fit. -- Richard Clegg 20:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I have added the weasel tag . Bharatveer 09:56, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
Can someone please remove "In general, however, the state of Bengal under Clive's administration after Plassey was a wretched one, as the Company sought to extract the maximum revenue possible from the peasantry to fund military campaigns, and corruption was widespread amongst Company officials, whilst Mir Jafar was also compelled to extortions on a vast scale in order to replenish his treasury, so efficiently emptied by Clive." or cite references to prove it is true. Ditto "Macaulay's ringing endorsement of Clive seems ludicrous today, as Bengal suffered from appalling exactions and famine under his rule and that of his immediate successors; his own ambition and desire for personal gain set the tone for the administration of the province until the Permanent Settlement 30 years later, as Bengal's unhappy peasantry were bled dry by the corrupt exactions of Company Officials and Zamindars." - 86.130.233.183 19:32, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The article appears much improve, hence the new tag. Some citations would be nice and some more facts. Otherwise I see no reason for cleanup any longer
'Parts of this article sounds imperialistic: '...and as a statesman, since retreat, or even delay, would have put back the civilization of India for years;'since it is just an unsubstantiated proposition I can very much say that British sucked life out of people';'I also find is sickening that someone can a find anything good with Raj'
I think I can probably find something good about the raj, how about this? Without the British Empire, the modern Indian nation would very likely not exist; the area probably would have been subjugated by a Japanese dictatorship since 1940, and it is incredibly likely that democracy would not flourish there. What is more, had the British not colonised India, the French or Portuguese would have, in which case, the attainment of Indian independence would probably have been an even bloodier affair than it was in Indochina, and Angola! In summary, India, and the numerous gangs of politically correct (and usually historically incorrect) thugs have a few quite significant things to thank Great Britain and Her Empire for, along with men like Robert Clive, and the Duke of Wellington(regardless of their motives), who made the aforementioned possible.
Comment added by User:DHR1815
Political correctness,these days looks like anything that contradicts the "white man's burden" is PC. Robert Clive ruined a once thriving Bengal economy and lead to the 1770-1773 famine of Bengal. I DO NOT see how Clive can be viewed as positive by anyone. On the contrary it was the loot from the colonies primarily India (India,Pakistan and Bangladesh) that transformed Britain from a poor third world country to a leading power,how is that for un-PC. Non-PC can cut both ways. We have nothing to thank the British Empire for, other than looting us dry. Any case even if Japan had annexed India in 1940,5 years of Japanese domination would be nowhere as destructive as 200 years of British misrule. I can even argue in a non-PC manner that the present immigrants from South Asia and Carribean give Britain a moral compass that it lacks. So please quit trying to argue as to the greatness of British Rule
If you genuinely believe these things to be historical facts rather than your own political opiniopns coloured by your nationalist convictions, then I recommen you cite some credible sources and then show how they attach not only to the life of Robert Clive but also to this very discussion. 90.197.233.36 ( talk) 02:31, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
First, prove that Bengal was thriving, and give a citation for a reputable source. Second, offer some evidence that "loot" transformed Britain. As for the accusation of "looting dry" this is simply rhetoric, not an honest, historically based attempt to discuss the issue. I won't waste time on the idiocy of arguing about a hypothetical 5 years of Japanese rule. As for Britain's moral compass, your claims are far more racist than anything said about Clive.
A person who conspirated in a very evil manner to ruin the independence of a great nation of old heritage and wisdom should not be considered a great man under any pre-text. That should be the spirit of mankind in thr 21st century.
freemind
That's all very pretty to think, but it's not history. It seems to me that this entire thread of conversation is positively *laced* with bias and self-interest. This article is not about the British Raj; nor is it about the 21st Century POV; nor is it about the "spirit of mankind," whatever the crap that means. The article is about Robert Clive, and I would submit that reliable historical sources about Robert Clive ought to be relied upon (whatever their biases) before, and if necessary to the exclusion of, Wikipedia participants who cannot provide comparable or superior sources. At any rate, the article-less brand of English people are using in this thread is so abominable as to be incomprehensible in some instances; I suggest you deal with that issue before you consider rewriting anything. In conclusion: get over yourselves, folks. This preoccupation with ego-political bickering is a major reason Wikipedia is disregarded -and when regarded, disrespected- by historians, teachers and intelligent people everywhere. -Maalox
If anyone is interested, kindly read this article of mine written sometime ago: Robert Clive: His compulsions. You may follow this link: [1]
I have not had the time to read the article here, nor the debate. May be I will come later when I have time. I came to collect some details; incidently I saw the debate here. -- Ved from Victoria Institutions 15:23, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
History cannot be altered for the sake of political correctness. It would be wrong to undermine Lord Clive's contributions to the East India Company and to India. The British Empire created India as we know it today and the East India Company's role in uniting the native provinces was undeniable.-Guest —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.1.226.91 ( talk) 11:20, August 23, 2007 (UTC)
The India 'as we know it' was not created by British or the East India company: it would be a very strong statement if we did not consider the longer history of Indian peninsula. India as an entity with periods of unity alternating with periods of disunity has been documented from at least from King Ashoka (304-322BCE)period. The last such empire was Mughal King Aurangezeb (1618 to 1907 AD). Teh empires ruled by two emperors, two millenium apart, encompass majority of what was known as India and thier empires are similar to the British Empire of indian subcontinent. To argue that British united India, is historical shortsightedness. But it is the fact that british on this occasion helped uniting India and there were other strong contenders for uniting India at that time including the Marathas. For more discussion on these see Amarthya sen's Argumentative Indian. (Amartya Sen. 2005 The argumentative Indian, Allen Lane Publishers Barani76 ( talk) 12:07, 10 May 2013 (UTC) Barani76
After having read this entire page, I can say nothing more except it smacks or glorifying the gory deds Clive did. And he paid for it at the end too by committing suicide. All those people who want to talk about Clive should look into whether he went stark mad leading him to suicide. That would be the real lesson to learn from Clive: not to do evil deeds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.190.94 ( talk) 03:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Yours is an interesting perspnal and moral perspective but, as you would be the first to agree, it does not seem underpinned by any verifiable fact nor to be relevant to the discussion of the subject. 90.197.233.36 ( talk) 02:33, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
The practices of the Early East Indian company officials are documented by Harvard Social Historian- Nicholas Dirks in his book 'The scandal of empire'. (The scandal of empire-India and the creation of Imperial Britain, Nicholas Dirks, 2006, Harvard Univeristy Press ISBN-13: 978-8178241753). He argues with reasonable evidence that the East India company employees were involved in fraud, usury, and murders (of their own employees if anyone tried to put the house in order if necessary) let alone twisting the historical facts. The deeds of East India company officials and the consequences (famine of bengal 1770), has created lot of uneasiness among the politicians, MPs - some of whom wanted to bring the people to account. i.e perhaps they are not personal enemies of Robert Clive. The end of Clive by suicide has been attributed to the end of his political ambitions- which is a possible explanation (in the absence of other reliable explanations). Barani76 ( talk) 12:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
The scond part of this needed a better cleanup than I could provide but I've watered down some of the cheerleading for Empire and some of the Indian reaction, neither of which are much help in creating a credible article. Also, cut out some of the Indian-English eupemisms and love of multiple-clause sentences to make the second half a little more readable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.139.147.121 ( talk) 08:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The text still isnt perfect but worst of the imperialistic Anglocentric language has been progressively extracted. The citations are still lacking, though. Does anyone have an ongoing problem with the neutrality of the article as it stands? Mdw0 ( talk) 04:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure if this should be included in the article because it is minor. Clive or his descendant of the same name was mentioned in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom (1984) during the banquet scene in Pangkot palace. Indiana Jones remarks, "there are events more interesting, going back to the time of Clive." (The quote may not be exact as I am quoting from my memory.)
Just a thought. I was going to add it myself but didn't know if it would be a meaningful contribution to the article.
History_Educator —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.33.200.95 ( talk) 02:30, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
It says that his occupation was a plumber. (See the caption under the first picture.) Is this true??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.33.200.95 ( talk) 02:37, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
As a young Indian, I do not care that Robert Clive and the BEIC came and colonized the subcontinent. I am not defending imperialism in any way. Neither am I providing an apologia for the wanton economic exploitation of the land perpetrated by the colonisers. Whether we like it or not we had always been overrun by invaders throughout our long history. Why? Maybe the fault is with in ourselves and not the proverbial stars. Much smaller countries and peoples have defended their land and driven out the invaders against greater odds. But such a thing never happened in the course of Indian history. Even the much hailed first war of independence of 1857 ended in failure. The foreign invaders virtually came, saw, conquered and then ruled, happily ever after.
We Indians could never provide a united front to the invaders as we were consumed in bickering with each other and being at each others throats all the time. And the cherry on this pie was the regressive philosophy of ‘Chaturvarnya’ which rejected egalitarianism and relegated a large section of the population to the margins and kept them subservient. To these people, it did not matter who the rulers of the land were, as they remained oppressed, forever at the mercy of their upper caste masters , forever denied the fruits of equality, liberty and justice. So I don’t think we, Indians should look at the actions of Robert Clive through any moralistic goggles. He did whatever he did by the rules of the playbook of his day and presumably had many admirable qualities. Otherwise how would you explain his plethoric successes in the sub continent? All said and done we are pretty much even for our colonial experience. Some might say we are even better for it. I don’t give a damn and if at all, let us learn from our mistakes and move on. ( Mksuraj ( talk) 20:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC))
"Clive was awarded with an Irish peerage and was created Baron Clive of Plassey co Clare and bought lands in County Limerick and County Clare, Ireland. He named part of his lands near Limerick City, Plassey. Following Irish independence, these lands became state property. In the 1970s a technical college, which later became University of Limerick, was built at Plassey." I take it he did this before he committed suicide yet I would like to point out that this quote comes after the part about his death. I know this is niggling but it does disrupt the flow of the end of the article. 161.76.194.213 ( talk) 11:33, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
His trial is a considerably more important event than has been given credit for. The effect on british views and especially those of radical writers, such as Thomas Paine, is very important in world history. Essentially it paraded atrocities committed by the nobility like Lord Clive in front of the entire nation. I know this is painted with a broad brush, I am writing a paper on this, I will find sources and bring them back. Just thought I would put in a word first. Adrianturcato ( talk) 18:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
Order of Bath Award. The statement he was invested with the Order in 1772, rather late in his life, merits checking against other sources. The painting by George Clive (illustration to this article) dated c.1764 shows him wear what I identify as the collar of the Order with the pendant 'three crowns' badge that became solely that of the Order's Civil Division when the Order was divided into classes long after Clive's lifetime. Cloptonson ( talk) 18:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC) A check in the Complete Peerage revealed he was awarded the Order in 1764 but not invested with it until 1772. Cloptonson ( talk) 18:33, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
Death - Unhelpful Citation. The citation to the statement he committed suicide by "stabbing himself with a penknife" offers no evidence about the alleged means; it links to a BBC news article about Clive's tortoise which only states Clive "committed suicide". The circumstances of his death merit more learned investigation. He is also alleged to have cut his throat and (more commonly) to have died from overdose of opium (which could have been accidental, given the circumstances of his health). Appreciably, it does not help that his death appears not to have been subject to coroner's inquest or autopsy, and that it occurred before the introduction of death certification in the 19th century. Cloptonson ( talk) 19:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC) I have removed the link, inputting its full details against the account, later in the article, of the tortoise, and outlined the varying reported causes of his death, cited to two modern biographers who produced identically titled books on Clive, both published same year (1974). Cloptonson ( talk) 19:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
"The European Trading companies still acknowledged the The relationship between the Europeans in India was influenced by a series of wars and treaties on mainland Europe." Whom - the Emperor? 211.225.30.91 ( talk) 11:44, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
In the mention of the movie, "Clive of India", there is a note after Colin Clive - that he wasn't a relation to Robert Clive. In Colin Clive's page, he is listed as being related. Jtyroler ( talk) 21:01, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
It seems surprising that there isn't a specific section in which Clive's dictatorial behaviour is criticised. In many circles, especially in India, Clive is seen as little more than a brutal imperialist. Not mentioning this negative legacy at all pushes the POV out of balance. Mdw0 ( talk) 07:18, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
The VA Museum notes 52 folios for the Small Clive Album. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aero13792468 ( talk • contribs) 12:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
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Why not including "His Excellency"? Gz deleted ( talk) 03:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
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Clive, despite his military accomplishments, was never appointed to the Board of Directors (known as Court of Directors then). He was seen by elite class as nothing more than a handy killing machine with zero business acumen.
Please add this information to the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4C28:194:520:5E26:AFF:FEFE:75AC ( talk) 07:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved Armbrust The Homunculus 14:10, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Robert Clive → Clive of India – On 15 December 2013 User:Solomon7968 moved this article from Robert Clive, 1st Baron Clive to Robert Clive citing WP:COMMONNAME and WP:CONCISE. I don't think either apply. WP:COMMONNAME would certainly be "Clive of India", and WP:CONCISE says that "[t]he basic goal of conciseness is balancing brevity with sufficient information to identify the topic in a way the average person searching for it will recognize": I'd consider myself moderately well-educated, but if I had been asked in a pub-quiz what Clive of India's first name was, I'd have had to think for a bit. I really don't think the "average person" searching for this subject would go for "Robert Clive" as their first option. Opera hat ( talk) 02:04, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.This needs broader discussion than the scope of this requested move; perhaps input form Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United Kingdom etc. My hypothesis is taking out the "1st Baron Clive" part from the article title will help in increasing page views in the long run. Indeed the article traffic has increased after the move. People of similar level of notability like say Warren Hastings are perfectly recognisable in their real name although the average reader (i.e. not so well versed in Indian history) have no clue that Warren is "Hastings of India". Solomon 7968 15:30, 7 January 2014 (UTC)
Adam Smith was a contemporary of Clive, so he is a WP:PRIMARY source and can be only used for regular facts with due caution. Anything bordering analysis (such as criticism) needs secondary academic sources (there are truckloads of them in this case). Any objection to this? Solomon 7968 08:17, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Quote: was a British officer and soldier of fortune who established the military and political supremacy of the East India Company in Bengal. He is credited with securing India, and the wealth that followed, for the British crown. END OF QUOTE
Most of the adjectives and suggestive and descriptive words are wrong, and mischievous. The general spirit of most of this and similar articles on India pages reflect the general low quality standards of the modern Pakistan/Indian academic textbooks.
Clive was not a British 'officer' nor a soldier of fortune. He secured not 'India', if this term is to mean conquering a nation called India. He was possibly the person who laid the foundation of the nation that can be called British-India.
The suggestive words: securing the wealth that followed' is also quite mischievous. It does seem to suggest that the East India Company was on a looting mission in the subcontinent, instead of doing trade, in a location that had no sensible law and order mechanism or machinery. East India Company, though it functioned under the licence of the British Crown, was not on a looting mission.
Moreover the article writer seems to suggest in the above words that the common people of the subcontinent were fools to support the East India Company. The real fact was that in a geographical location wherein around 99% of the common man was under slavish conditions, not only the East India Company, but even its greatest official Robert Clive was seen as a social liberator force. Everything good and of substantial quality in the Indian subcontinent (Pakistan, India & Bangladesh)can be traced back to the endevours of East India Company.
It is possible that Indian subcontinent academic article writers may not agree with the suggestion that the common man does also want some liberation from the shackles placed on them by the governing folks of their country. Indian academics currently gather between 40 to 75 thousand rupees per month for 13 months a year, and a huge or rather astronomical pension/perks, in a nation where the common man's monthly earnings are just between 2000 to 15000 rupees with no other social security. These self-conceited, selfish academics can afford to waste everyone's time by writing suggestive writings about the greatest social liberator force this subcontinent has seen in a couple of thousand years.
The question is how is Wikipedia allowing these crooks to write such nonsense that simply suggests that the people who supported the East India Company were fools, and these grand, conceited modern Indian academics are sort of know-alls.
See these words:
QUOTE: In 1744 Clive's father acquired for him a position as a "factor" or "writer" END OF QUOTE it seems to suggest that Clive's father got in a great post in a great company, when actually it was just a job in a English trading company.
QUOTE: working as little more than a glorified assistant shopkeeper, END OF QUOTE. Does the writer have some problem that he has to insert adjectives to each and every mention of any work or doing? His or her personal prejudices are entering into an arena wherein at best he or she can at best be mentioned as unfit to enter.
SIGNED-- 117.204.80.58 ( talk) 05:38, 3 April 2015 (UTC)
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In the lead, it says "when Clive first arrived, India was dominated by the atrocities of the Mongols...". Surely Mongols should actually be Mughals. Indian history is not my specialty, but I am not aware of any Mongol presence in 18th century India, which was dominated by the Mughal empire. Can someone who actually knows a thing or two about 18th century India check this out and fix it if necessary? If I'm right, it's quite an embarrassing error... A2soup ( talk) 00:34, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
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The lede section of this article contains the following sentence, which was added by screen name "103.140.83.43" on 8 November 2019:
"He caused the biggest genocide in the history of Bengal and India and killed over one million Bengalis after winning the Battle of Plassey."
This sentence is false. I have therefore deleted it because:
The Great Bengal famine is estimated to have killed 10 million Indians, including Bengalis, but this famine occurred in 1770, after Clive had left India in 1767.
VexorAbVikipædia ( talk) 08:24, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
This article is quite poor. Clive's reputation is not controversial, it is blatantly negative. I will be amending the article based on scholarship produced in last 20-30 years. HISTRS applies. TrangaBellam ( talk) 11:47, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
Who was appointed for the first time by the Robert climb to draw the map of India 2405:205:1586:4FD4:0:0:F68:28AC ( talk) 05:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)