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This could be told as an Irish joke but it is true.
They may not be everywhere but I saw some recently on the N11 road. -- RHaworth 10:09, 2005 Apr 3 (UTC)
They are usually at the end of motorway off-ramps... -- Rdd 4 July 2005 23:38 (UTC)
They most certainly exist on onramps, but not on the back of every sign, even on the very very old dual carraigeways (nass, stillorgan) -- Kiand 17:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
These are still placed on new motorways/dual-carriageways. There are also confirmation destination signs just where off-ramps leave the carriageway - they are of little use as it's not like you can change your mind at the point where you can read them. The morale of the story - don't assume signposting in Ireland is useful or well-thought out. zoney ♣ talk 00:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems to treat them as independent entities and doesn't cover interconnections particularly well. Looking at map I see the M1 stops near Dundalk, but the route continues north through the international border, round Newry, and then meeting up the the other M1 near Lisburn. Morwen - Talk 16:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of roads in Dublin city classified as Jxx roads. I can't find out wht the J stands for. Does anyone know?
Is there a better way to explain how route numbers work in this country. People keep making the same mistake thinking that N routes and M routes are separate (like A roads and M roads in the UK). They aren't. All M roads in Ireland are part of a national primary route (e.g. N1, N7). The roads which were previously N roads before being bypassed by motorway are no longer N roads. In many cases, signage does not always reflect this change (although a dead giveaway is usually the brand new signs erected at the beginning/end of the bypass which list an R road designation on the directions for the bypassed route).
Also, in urban areas, the signposted N routes do not always adhere to the legislated routes. A case in point is the N7 in Limerick. The new southern bypass has been signposted as the N7, and the road into Limerick through Castletroy is signposted as an R route on the new signage (at the beginning of bypass, and the junction with the road to Murroe). However, the existing N7 signage is still in place along that road into the city (the Dublin road), including recent signage on the N7 Parkway scheme (completed prior to the southern bypass).
The legislated route (not updated to show the southern bypass now being the N7) continues into the city, across to King's Island, and along the Northern Relief Road.
Have a look at some maps, the situation on the ground, and the statute book to see the mess for this route! Note that on the N7, only the Naas Motorway is included in this 1994 act (motorway sections are highlighted in Block capitals.
In short, the system itself is confusing, and the lax implementation on the ground all the more so. Have I described it under the Route Number Inheritance section as best as possible?
I wonder can we write to the minister responsible, looking for definitive routes to be set in the statute books again, and regularly updated as needed?
zoney ♣ talk 14:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
It say in the "Roads in the Republic of Ireland" section about a type of road which is a layer of stones set in 6mm of bitumen. I believe this is called "chip seal" and is used in some places in New Zealand. Can anyone add corrections/other info?
This article contains much valuable information but it has serious problems of style and POV. It needs to be Wikified.
Right in the first para we have:
"It is true to say that many rural roads, even in Northern Ireland, remain an 'exciting' ride. For an unforgettable example, drive from Charleville to Macroom in County Cork; all the stereotypical components are present, from road 'surface' and potholes, to junctions and vicious bends (often combined for added thrills)."
And there's a para ending: "Among the Irish motoring public, surface dressing is becoming taboo and someday the councils will realise this" (blatant POV). Ryancolm 10:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to come up with a fact-box for National secondary roads; below is my first attempt in the N80 article:
Destinations (NW to SE) | |
---|---|
One problem; it could do with the route-marker logo which appears in all the Motorway and Primary route articles (usually supplied by User:Zoney as far as I can tell).
The box (right) here is obviously copied and modified from the Primary N-series articles; adjusted for the fact that very few towns are bypassed and the roads don't have interchanges.
Would any genius out there like to try and come up with a more refined info-box so we can apply it to my planned series on Nat secondary roads?
I think such a series is a good way of cataloguing the geography of Ireland as they pass through all the main towns, hills, lakes, historic sites etc - they can be built into the link to all of these. Some graphic which maps the road with the various connections (towns, villages, junctions, sites, hills, points of interest, rivers and so forth) in some stylised manner would be great.
And for roads train-spotters we could give the carriageway standard of the various sections; these roads will be evolving for the next 20 years or more. ( Sarah777 22:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC))
R154 Destinations (SE to NW) |
---|
|
This is better, it includes road connections/junctions. Still need route-marker logo to give it a nice presentation. HOW are these generated? ( Sarah777 23:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC))
Why is there only one article for the roads of Ireland? Whilst the railway network on the island of Ireland is two systems which are very much interlinked: joint serivce (enterprise), same gauge, same loco models, same signalling systems etcl, the road networks are not. Across the border there are roads that link and both drive on the same side of the road but that is about where the similarities end. Whilst there are some difference between NI and GB in relation to roads, for example the numbering system, number plate format and licencing body (the DVLA doesn't cover NI) the actual rules of the road are UK-wide.
For example aspects that are the same as the rest of the UK but different to the Republic include:
The government body responsible for roads in NI, the Roads Service, is not a UK-wide authority but since devolution to Scotland and Wales there responsibility for roads is done on a
Constituent country basis anyhow.
This is not being proposed from a political position but from a perspective to build a more logical setup here on Wiki. There are as many differences between the roads of NI and the Republic as there are between any two continential European countries but there we seperate articles for each country. At the moment the Roads in the United Kingdom, IMHO stupidly, directs to Great Britain road numbering scheme which is a problems that needs solving ASAP and as part of that there should be inclusion of NI as it is very much part of the UK when it comes to roads and driving. Therefore I propose that this article should be changed to Roads of the Republic of Ireland, which is pretty much what it already is, and information about Northern Ireland merged into a new UK-wide article. -- Achmelvic 11:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
And rest assured, there will be objections here too. ( Sarah777 21:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
I added a map. What are we supposed to do with these request boxes? Delete? Wait till the guy who put it there comes back? ( Sarah777 20:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC))
Why are there no subsections for National Secondary roads and Regional Roads? They're both under "Other Roads". I'll try to tidy it up a bit, if nobody minds. Ga2re2t 09:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The table below is pure speculation. It belongs on the talk page, not the main article. I have removed it from there and transferred it here. See WP:NOR -- Red King 15:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Below is a list of national primary road dual carriageways where the redesignation would be feasible.
Route | Section | Potential Handicaps | Viable Solution |
N2 | 17km N2 Finglas - Ashbourne High Quality Dual Carriageway Scheme | There would be no alternative access to the M50/N2 Interchange on current route if it was redesignated motorway in its entirety. | Redesignate the scheme as the M2 Motorway from Rath, North of Ashbourne to a point 1.45km north of the M50/N2 interchange and leave remainder as the N2. This would allow access and egress to the alternative R135 (old N2) at Coldwinters and 320m south of Kilshane Cross and therefore allow 15.5km of the 17km scheme to be redesignated motorway. |
N1 | North of Dundalk to border with Northern Ireland | Requires the co-operation of the Northern Ireland government. There may be problems identifying an alternate route for non-motorway traffic particularly along the section that lies within NI. | Complete parallel road to good standard. Secure commitment from NI to legally redesignate their section of the road at the same time as the section in the Republic is changed. |
N6 | Entire route from Kinnegad to Galway | The N6 Athlone bypass is an older scheme which was built to a slightly lower standard. This may require upgrade. | Upgrade N6 Athlone bypass. |
N7 | Limerick to Mountrath at terminus of current M7 motorway, including Limerick Ring Road. | None | N/A |
N8 | Urlingford-Fermoy and Watergrasshill-Cork | The Watergrasshill-Glanmire-Dunkettle Interchange section of the N8 consists of older schemes where there is not total control of access. Also curvature of the road is quite significant. | Redesign access/entrance to the N8 along Watergrasshill-Cork section. Reduce speed limit to 100 km/h to preserve safety due to bends. |
N9 | Kilcullen-Waterford | Section inside new N25 Waterford bypass has at-grade roundabouts. | Remove roundabouts or exclude this short section from designation. |
N11 | Rathnew-Gorey | There are speed restrictions and private accesses from the curent end of the M11 at Fassaroe through to the start of the Newtown bypass. There is no parallel road between Newtown and Ashford. The section between Rathnew and Arklow is single carriageway. The recently opened Gorey bypass is joined to the Arklow Bypass via a seamless changeover, but the new section bypassing Gorey is not up to Motorway standard. | Major work required and parallel roads along the entire route (including the Glen of the Downs - try that!!). And the brand new Gorey bypass would need to be realigned and upgraded which is not likely to happen within the next 20 years |
N18 | Limerick-Galway | Section from Limerick to N19 Shannon junction is below spec, featuring frontage access, median breaks and incomplete junctions. | Upgrade this section. Close median, reconstruct and/or add junctions, provide parallel service road. (Note: This route has not been included in the current round of redesignations.) |
Please follow the format above and add other routes you are familiar with which are likely to be redesignated as Motorway (e.g N6,N7,N11 etc) given the enactment of the Roads Act 2007
For the UK roads we now have lists of roads to cover them off and keep them out of the articles. Should we be looking to do something similar here? Also there is overlap between this article and Roads in the United Kingdom. Whatever I put in there I am also adding here. There is not enough info for a separate Roads in Northern Ireland yet I don't believe. Regan123 ( talk) 19:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The widened Lucan/Palmerstown bypass will not be motorway - several problems with it not least of which are the direct accesses for the Hermitage golf club, Texaco/Foxhunter, Spa Hotel, McCoys and even a couple of private houses. Some, but not all of these, will be taken out by access roads even then the access roads will go nowhere except the N4. Even after widening the speed limit will still only be 80km/h. The old road is subsumed between Leixlip and Lucan - the only alternative route would be rather windy R120 and R149. Rdd ( talk) 19:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I did a bit of addition and worked out the approximate lengths that each motorway in Ireland will be by 2015. I added it to the page.
I also added on the prospect of a possible M18 motorway as well. The only motorway length I'm not sure about is the M11. If somebody wishes to correct that, please do... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trans5999 ( talk • contribs) 17:13, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Due to the size of this article, would it be wise to have a separate Motorways in Ireland page, as is the case for several countries?
eg. Freeways in Australia, Highways in Croatia, List of autopistas and autovías in Spain.
This would be especially relevant as the number of motorways is set to increase dramatically! Sulmac ( talk) 09:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Massive improvements have been made to this lately. Well done! Seighean ( talk) 21:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
The World Roads Portal is at Peer Review, if any editors know of any articles, images, news items or DYKs which could be added to the Portal, please add them directly to the portal or contact .... SriMesh | talk 19:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Look at N86 road (Ireland) (or nearly any Irish roads page). With the new(ish) template at the bottom is there a need for the links in "See also" to the articles on National, Secondary and Regional roads? Any views? Sarah777 ( talk) 11:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I redirected Roads in Northern Ireland to the Roads in the United Kingdom article. As the UK article addresses technical aspects pertaining to roads in Northern Ireland such as primary destinations, taxation, road signs etc, it seemed a logical destination for the redirect. Alastairward ( talk) 00:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
What is its provenance? It reads to me as unambiguous WP:OR. Where are the motorways in the south? or the north? Where is this place called "Eire" (sic)? Why are the N4 and N5 into Mayo tagged as 'other border roads' [yes, yes, I know, but that would be even more PoV!]. I propose we delete it and so provoke someone into providing a new one that has some connection with the real world! -- Red King ( talk) 19:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
You may like to know that I have created a wiki which you can view here. The wiki is in its very early stages and I know you road nutters will provide comprehensive cover on Irish roads, seeing that most of the road articles on the encyclopedia are adequate rather than great. I have created some of the motorways and a navigation template, next up is an infobox and incentives. Sarah777 , being the expert that you are, I wouldn't be surprised if you were to my new wiki what Toon Ganondorf was to Robot Wars Wiki...-- The Master of Mayhem ( talk, contribs, email) 13:07, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
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This could be told as an Irish joke but it is true.
They may not be everywhere but I saw some recently on the N11 road. -- RHaworth 10:09, 2005 Apr 3 (UTC)
They are usually at the end of motorway off-ramps... -- Rdd 4 July 2005 23:38 (UTC)
They most certainly exist on onramps, but not on the back of every sign, even on the very very old dual carraigeways (nass, stillorgan) -- Kiand 17:16, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
These are still placed on new motorways/dual-carriageways. There are also confirmation destination signs just where off-ramps leave the carriageway - they are of little use as it's not like you can change your mind at the point where you can read them. The morale of the story - don't assume signposting in Ireland is useful or well-thought out. zoney ♣ talk 00:02, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
It seems to treat them as independent entities and doesn't cover interconnections particularly well. Looking at map I see the M1 stops near Dundalk, but the route continues north through the international border, round Newry, and then meeting up the the other M1 near Lisburn. Morwen - Talk 16:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
There are a number of roads in Dublin city classified as Jxx roads. I can't find out wht the J stands for. Does anyone know?
Is there a better way to explain how route numbers work in this country. People keep making the same mistake thinking that N routes and M routes are separate (like A roads and M roads in the UK). They aren't. All M roads in Ireland are part of a national primary route (e.g. N1, N7). The roads which were previously N roads before being bypassed by motorway are no longer N roads. In many cases, signage does not always reflect this change (although a dead giveaway is usually the brand new signs erected at the beginning/end of the bypass which list an R road designation on the directions for the bypassed route).
Also, in urban areas, the signposted N routes do not always adhere to the legislated routes. A case in point is the N7 in Limerick. The new southern bypass has been signposted as the N7, and the road into Limerick through Castletroy is signposted as an R route on the new signage (at the beginning of bypass, and the junction with the road to Murroe). However, the existing N7 signage is still in place along that road into the city (the Dublin road), including recent signage on the N7 Parkway scheme (completed prior to the southern bypass).
The legislated route (not updated to show the southern bypass now being the N7) continues into the city, across to King's Island, and along the Northern Relief Road.
Have a look at some maps, the situation on the ground, and the statute book to see the mess for this route! Note that on the N7, only the Naas Motorway is included in this 1994 act (motorway sections are highlighted in Block capitals.
In short, the system itself is confusing, and the lax implementation on the ground all the more so. Have I described it under the Route Number Inheritance section as best as possible?
I wonder can we write to the minister responsible, looking for definitive routes to be set in the statute books again, and regularly updated as needed?
zoney ♣ talk 14:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
It say in the "Roads in the Republic of Ireland" section about a type of road which is a layer of stones set in 6mm of bitumen. I believe this is called "chip seal" and is used in some places in New Zealand. Can anyone add corrections/other info?
This article contains much valuable information but it has serious problems of style and POV. It needs to be Wikified.
Right in the first para we have:
"It is true to say that many rural roads, even in Northern Ireland, remain an 'exciting' ride. For an unforgettable example, drive from Charleville to Macroom in County Cork; all the stereotypical components are present, from road 'surface' and potholes, to junctions and vicious bends (often combined for added thrills)."
And there's a para ending: "Among the Irish motoring public, surface dressing is becoming taboo and someday the councils will realise this" (blatant POV). Ryancolm 10:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to come up with a fact-box for National secondary roads; below is my first attempt in the N80 article:
Destinations (NW to SE) | |
---|---|
One problem; it could do with the route-marker logo which appears in all the Motorway and Primary route articles (usually supplied by User:Zoney as far as I can tell).
The box (right) here is obviously copied and modified from the Primary N-series articles; adjusted for the fact that very few towns are bypassed and the roads don't have interchanges.
Would any genius out there like to try and come up with a more refined info-box so we can apply it to my planned series on Nat secondary roads?
I think such a series is a good way of cataloguing the geography of Ireland as they pass through all the main towns, hills, lakes, historic sites etc - they can be built into the link to all of these. Some graphic which maps the road with the various connections (towns, villages, junctions, sites, hills, points of interest, rivers and so forth) in some stylised manner would be great.
And for roads train-spotters we could give the carriageway standard of the various sections; these roads will be evolving for the next 20 years or more. ( Sarah777 22:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC))
R154 Destinations (SE to NW) |
---|
|
This is better, it includes road connections/junctions. Still need route-marker logo to give it a nice presentation. HOW are these generated? ( Sarah777 23:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC))
Why is there only one article for the roads of Ireland? Whilst the railway network on the island of Ireland is two systems which are very much interlinked: joint serivce (enterprise), same gauge, same loco models, same signalling systems etcl, the road networks are not. Across the border there are roads that link and both drive on the same side of the road but that is about where the similarities end. Whilst there are some difference between NI and GB in relation to roads, for example the numbering system, number plate format and licencing body (the DVLA doesn't cover NI) the actual rules of the road are UK-wide.
For example aspects that are the same as the rest of the UK but different to the Republic include:
The government body responsible for roads in NI, the Roads Service, is not a UK-wide authority but since devolution to Scotland and Wales there responsibility for roads is done on a
Constituent country basis anyhow.
This is not being proposed from a political position but from a perspective to build a more logical setup here on Wiki. There are as many differences between the roads of NI and the Republic as there are between any two continential European countries but there we seperate articles for each country. At the moment the Roads in the United Kingdom, IMHO stupidly, directs to Great Britain road numbering scheme which is a problems that needs solving ASAP and as part of that there should be inclusion of NI as it is very much part of the UK when it comes to roads and driving. Therefore I propose that this article should be changed to Roads of the Republic of Ireland, which is pretty much what it already is, and information about Northern Ireland merged into a new UK-wide article. -- Achmelvic 11:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
And rest assured, there will be objections here too. ( Sarah777 21:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC))
I added a map. What are we supposed to do with these request boxes? Delete? Wait till the guy who put it there comes back? ( Sarah777 20:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC))
Why are there no subsections for National Secondary roads and Regional Roads? They're both under "Other Roads". I'll try to tidy it up a bit, if nobody minds. Ga2re2t 09:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
The table below is pure speculation. It belongs on the talk page, not the main article. I have removed it from there and transferred it here. See WP:NOR -- Red King 15:05, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Below is a list of national primary road dual carriageways where the redesignation would be feasible.
Route | Section | Potential Handicaps | Viable Solution |
N2 | 17km N2 Finglas - Ashbourne High Quality Dual Carriageway Scheme | There would be no alternative access to the M50/N2 Interchange on current route if it was redesignated motorway in its entirety. | Redesignate the scheme as the M2 Motorway from Rath, North of Ashbourne to a point 1.45km north of the M50/N2 interchange and leave remainder as the N2. This would allow access and egress to the alternative R135 (old N2) at Coldwinters and 320m south of Kilshane Cross and therefore allow 15.5km of the 17km scheme to be redesignated motorway. |
N1 | North of Dundalk to border with Northern Ireland | Requires the co-operation of the Northern Ireland government. There may be problems identifying an alternate route for non-motorway traffic particularly along the section that lies within NI. | Complete parallel road to good standard. Secure commitment from NI to legally redesignate their section of the road at the same time as the section in the Republic is changed. |
N6 | Entire route from Kinnegad to Galway | The N6 Athlone bypass is an older scheme which was built to a slightly lower standard. This may require upgrade. | Upgrade N6 Athlone bypass. |
N7 | Limerick to Mountrath at terminus of current M7 motorway, including Limerick Ring Road. | None | N/A |
N8 | Urlingford-Fermoy and Watergrasshill-Cork | The Watergrasshill-Glanmire-Dunkettle Interchange section of the N8 consists of older schemes where there is not total control of access. Also curvature of the road is quite significant. | Redesign access/entrance to the N8 along Watergrasshill-Cork section. Reduce speed limit to 100 km/h to preserve safety due to bends. |
N9 | Kilcullen-Waterford | Section inside new N25 Waterford bypass has at-grade roundabouts. | Remove roundabouts or exclude this short section from designation. |
N11 | Rathnew-Gorey | There are speed restrictions and private accesses from the curent end of the M11 at Fassaroe through to the start of the Newtown bypass. There is no parallel road between Newtown and Ashford. The section between Rathnew and Arklow is single carriageway. The recently opened Gorey bypass is joined to the Arklow Bypass via a seamless changeover, but the new section bypassing Gorey is not up to Motorway standard. | Major work required and parallel roads along the entire route (including the Glen of the Downs - try that!!). And the brand new Gorey bypass would need to be realigned and upgraded which is not likely to happen within the next 20 years |
N18 | Limerick-Galway | Section from Limerick to N19 Shannon junction is below spec, featuring frontage access, median breaks and incomplete junctions. | Upgrade this section. Close median, reconstruct and/or add junctions, provide parallel service road. (Note: This route has not been included in the current round of redesignations.) |
Please follow the format above and add other routes you are familiar with which are likely to be redesignated as Motorway (e.g N6,N7,N11 etc) given the enactment of the Roads Act 2007
For the UK roads we now have lists of roads to cover them off and keep them out of the articles. Should we be looking to do something similar here? Also there is overlap between this article and Roads in the United Kingdom. Whatever I put in there I am also adding here. There is not enough info for a separate Roads in Northern Ireland yet I don't believe. Regan123 ( talk) 19:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The widened Lucan/Palmerstown bypass will not be motorway - several problems with it not least of which are the direct accesses for the Hermitage golf club, Texaco/Foxhunter, Spa Hotel, McCoys and even a couple of private houses. Some, but not all of these, will be taken out by access roads even then the access roads will go nowhere except the N4. Even after widening the speed limit will still only be 80km/h. The old road is subsumed between Leixlip and Lucan - the only alternative route would be rather windy R120 and R149. Rdd ( talk) 19:05, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I did a bit of addition and worked out the approximate lengths that each motorway in Ireland will be by 2015. I added it to the page.
I also added on the prospect of a possible M18 motorway as well. The only motorway length I'm not sure about is the M11. If somebody wishes to correct that, please do... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trans5999 ( talk • contribs) 17:13, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Due to the size of this article, would it be wise to have a separate Motorways in Ireland page, as is the case for several countries?
eg. Freeways in Australia, Highways in Croatia, List of autopistas and autovías in Spain.
This would be especially relevant as the number of motorways is set to increase dramatically! Sulmac ( talk) 09:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
Massive improvements have been made to this lately. Well done! Seighean ( talk) 21:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
The World Roads Portal is at Peer Review, if any editors know of any articles, images, news items or DYKs which could be added to the Portal, please add them directly to the portal or contact .... SriMesh | talk 19:07, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Look at N86 road (Ireland) (or nearly any Irish roads page). With the new(ish) template at the bottom is there a need for the links in "See also" to the articles on National, Secondary and Regional roads? Any views? Sarah777 ( talk) 11:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I redirected Roads in Northern Ireland to the Roads in the United Kingdom article. As the UK article addresses technical aspects pertaining to roads in Northern Ireland such as primary destinations, taxation, road signs etc, it seemed a logical destination for the redirect. Alastairward ( talk) 00:15, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
What is its provenance? It reads to me as unambiguous WP:OR. Where are the motorways in the south? or the north? Where is this place called "Eire" (sic)? Why are the N4 and N5 into Mayo tagged as 'other border roads' [yes, yes, I know, but that would be even more PoV!]. I propose we delete it and so provoke someone into providing a new one that has some connection with the real world! -- Red King ( talk) 19:56, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
You may like to know that I have created a wiki which you can view here. The wiki is in its very early stages and I know you road nutters will provide comprehensive cover on Irish roads, seeing that most of the road articles on the encyclopedia are adequate rather than great. I have created some of the motorways and a navigation template, next up is an infobox and incentives. Sarah777 , being the expert that you are, I wouldn't be surprised if you were to my new wiki what Toon Ganondorf was to Robot Wars Wiki...-- The Master of Mayhem ( talk, contribs, email) 13:07, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
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