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Earlier this evening, user 86.145.193.138 removed a couple of links from the External Links section, including one to the BBC News that I had added a couple of days ago. These links were replaced with a note indicating that news items could be reached via the website of the National Alliance Against Tolls. This organization is strongly hostile to the notion of road pricing, which it describes as "daft". I believe that Wikipedia's NPOV policy implies that relevant news items should be referenced directly, and not via a partisan organization. I have therefore restored the links removed by 86.145.193.138. -- RichardVeryard 23:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I have twice added a line to the 'Criticisms' section, detailing and linking to a current petition against road pricing in the UK. I think that this illustrates the concerns of a majority of the general public on this issue. 'Thisisbossi', why do you keep removing it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.246.81 ( talk) 14 December 2006, 13:40 (UTC)
To hopefully bump this section and garner some additional feedback: I'd appreciate some more response on the inclusion of this petition, which seems to thoroughly violate WP:EL. The History for the article is getting cluttered with people doing little more than update the date and number of this item which supports a bias against the topic; and is one of numerous petitions of its kind. If there is no adequate response as to how this is acceptable within Wikipedia, this will be removed. -- Thisisbossi 22:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Against - Egads no: they are nothing alike! I suspect this to be vandalism on the part of an anonymous contributor, particularly as he/she left no explanation of his/her intentions. I will remove this tag tomorrow barring any legitimate issues in support of a merge. -- Thisisbossi 04:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Against -- as per previous discussions. A toll road is a type of road, whereas road pricing is more of a concept. This would appear to be another example of an unnecessary merge. Incidentally, the merge banners were place on 9th Feb and it will be possible to remove them at the end of the week, since the concensus would appear to be 'against merge'. -- EdJogg 13:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC) Against' -- as per previous discussions and because the rationale behind each is different. Road pricing (or road user charging as it should be called) is about demand management i.e to improve road conditions, tolling is about revenue raising.-- JBellis 20:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Against. Over here in Singapore where road pricing has been around for decades (and which has been the model which London studied before its implimentation), there is incidently no toll road at all. Tolls roads are often typified as being charged for use round-the-clock, as a form of revenue reimbursing the cost of constructing that road specifically. Users often have to pay more the longer they drive along that road, which may be accomplished by passing through multiple gantries. Road pricing typically charged vehicles for entry into a specific zone only during specific periods to ease congestion, and typically involves just one gantry involving a flat fare to be paid irregardless of actual distance travelled within that area. Of course there may be variations, such as the one in Singapore which has two main zones with one within the other, thus there are two gantries to pass through if the user wishes to drive right into the city centre, but the principal of road management remains the same.-- Huaiwei 15:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Against. Road pricing covers entire urban areas, "toll road" only individual roads. Toll road is a subset of road pricing, if anything it should be merged to here. Cambrasa ( talk) 22:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't we mention that this is often called "C-charge" in the UK? (Including media news outlets etc.)
138.243.129.4
07:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
"Note that some libertarians in general, however, favor transfer of roads to private ownership, which is likely to result in tolls for individual roads, set on a profit-maximizing rather than an economic welfare-maximizing basis, which in many cases is likely to lead to a higher toll." -- I'm not sure this is a relevant answer to the libertarian freedom of movement argument. After all, in the libertarian utopia private roads might have tolls, but there wouldn't be high gov't taxes either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.133.86 ( talk • contribs)
True, however roads would no longer be free at the point of usage, which is what the "libertarian" ABD wants to preserve, government or no government Cambrasa ( talk) 22:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm changing this...
"Note that some libertarians in general, however, favour transfer of roads to private ownership, which is likely to result in tolls for individual roads, set on a profit-maximizing rather than an economic welfare-maximizing basis, which in many cases is likely to lead to a higher toll"
...because it doesn't have a citation, it's most likely untrue, and it confuses the issue. Firstly, and most importantly, it's far too bold a statement to make without a citation. Secondly, to libertarians, the whole principle of privatizing the roads is that, within the free market, there will be competition, which lowers prices. This is backed up by the fact that public schools cost twice as much as private schools (here is a sample study: http://www.mackinac.org/archives/1997/s1997-04.pdf); and that pre-1970 interstate airline fares under the regulation of the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) cost twice as much as within state airfares of similar distance (since they were unregulated and dealt with competition) and decreased in price when the CAB deregulated and competition forces started working again; etc etc, there are many examples. Thirdly, there is an invented dichotomy between "profit-maximizing" and "economic welfare-maximizing". The latter is an invented term and misses the fact that, to a libertarian or economist at least, profit-maximizing is welfare-maximizing for the reasons I've already gone over (companies seek profit> compete> prices decrease> to the benefit of all man). 68.81.97.59 ( talk) 01:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In response to the deletion of the New York congestion pricing proposal here, there is no reason (I think) not to include noteworthy proposals from other places, as long as they were considered or studied at the governmental level. Notable failed or stalled proposals are just as important and relevant as implemented ones. It's your job to include them.
From what I found from a web search, Toronto's mayor doesn't want it [1] and Chicago is only in the preliminary stages [2]. If you want to include those cities and others–with sources–you can and I support that. But NY's plan has support at the city and federal level. Even if NY's proposal is ultimately defeated, it has been widely talked about and reported in New York City as much as the New York City 2012 Olympic bid or the West Side Stadium, and is therefore still notable. TLK 'in 08:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the following
Various trials have taken place in British cities - the City of Cambridge in the United Kingdom, for example, had experimented with congestion charging as far back as 1993. [3]
The para implies there was a real live congestion charge in place, and the source notwithstanding, this is not the case. I'm afraid I don't know more, but i'm guessing maybe it was a very small scale trial with a small number of volunteers or something. (I've lived in Cambridge since 1985, and driven in Cambridge for most of that time, so I would certainly have noticed if there had been a congestion charge at any point.)
Of course, Cambridgeshire is bidding for TIF money so a Cambridge congestion charge is on the cards for the future. Roy Badami 20:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Going a step further to the old proposal to merge this article (see above), road pricing is a very general concept from economics, but in practical terms, as I added to the article, it has two distinct objectives: revenue generation and congestion pricing for demand management purposes. Toll roads are the typical example of revenue generation. Charges for using high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes or entering a restricted area of a city are typical examples of using road pricing for congestion management (see [4] for a very comprehensive summary on this subject). Electronic toll collection is a technology that can be use for both of these objectives.
If you look a the specific cases in this article, all but the German one refer to congestion pricing (which I already edit to explain the general economic concept), and most of the cases presented here (Singapore, London, Stockholm, New York, etc.) have their own articles. Therefore, the content of the article as it is now, refers mainly to pricing for congestion management purposes.
My suggestion is to relocate "Road pricing" as a more general separate article, and leave most of the actual text here under a new article's name. The new article's name could be "Traffic congestion pricing" or "Road congestion pricing", even though that the concept and most of existing schemes refer to urban areas, so an alternative will be a specific article named "Urban traffic congestion pricing" (as I called it in the more general congestion pricing article). The specific economic rationale for this pricing system could be included in the article, as it is related with the externalities of auto travel in urban areas, such us air pollution, noise, urban deterioration, and the extra costs and delays impose upon other drivers due to congestion, and mainly, to the more efficient public transportation vehicles.
If this suggestion is accepted, the main "Road pricing" article will have the basic economic rationale for all type of fees, tolls, etc, and a reference for all existing applications in the world. From there, the article will branch out to specific (existing) articles on Toll roads, Electronic toll collection, the proposed new article on "Traffic Congestion Pricing" (from where case specific articles will branch out) and any other related article will be referenced from this new main article.
-- Mariordo ( talk) 14:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
And by the way, there is an article called Electronic Road Pricing which refers only to Singapore, city that for some time was the only one to have an urban congestion pricing scheme in the world, but not anymore, since London, Stockholm and other cities have it (as you can check from this article). I try to change the name for "Singapore's Electronic Road Pricing" and added the "worldwide view" wiki banner, but one of the main contributors of that article deleted, and he does not want to recognize that this is no longer a country-specific scheme. You can see that similar articles are called with country specific tags such as London congestion charge or Stockholm congestion tax or New York congestion pricing. For consistency, I think this change would have also to be made. Mariordo ( talk) 14:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I am proposing to create a new article with a title of Road pricing in the United Kingdom. Does anyone have any comments or observations? Is that the best name? Road pricing is certainly the term used in the UK. I would move some of the detail from this article to this new article. There is also some stray general road pricing content at the bottom of the London congestion charge article that I would integrate. PeterEastern ( talk) 07:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
My edits to the congestion pricing article and to this one have just been reverted with the comments Sorry to revert the whole thing but road pricing is different from congestion pricing, what you are doing is original research. [5] and Rv Good faith edit: your ideas of what road pricing and congestion pricing are is wrong, road pric is more general. [6]
I do agree they are different which is why I did not propose a merge.
Here are the descriptions I included in the about banners for four related article (congestion pricing, road pricing, toll road and road space rationing) to try to make the scope of the articles clearer and reduce overlap:.
Now.. I do agree that one could consider that 'Road pricing' includes 'road tolls' as well as congestion pricing which relates to the use of road space. You will notice that the road pricing banner did not say that road tolls were not a type of road pricing, but only that the article didn't cover road tolls. I do agree that my lead was probably incorrect, which used to read Road pricing (also road user charging, congestion pricing, road tolls) involves charging fees for the use of a road facility for the purpose of reducing transport demand and influencing the transport modal choice. Charges typically are based on the time of day, the number of vehicle occupants, current road congestion levels or possibly other factors.
I am now going to reinstate my last versions or these two articles and adjust the lead of road pricing.
Can I request that we discuss the matter here before reverting again.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 14:12, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
I think you have all done well to bring the issues to the Talk page and discuss them calmly in the way you have. I support what Ebikeguy has said about reviewing proposed changes and coming to consensus before implementing them. As he says, "The articles, as they stand, are mature, and
Congestion pricing is a GA, so it is best that we err on the side of caution before making major changes".
Johnfos (
talk)
20:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
The current lead to this article states: [7]
Road pricing is an economic concept regarding the various direct charges applied for the use of roads. The road charges includes fuel taxes, licence fees, parking taxes, tolls, and congestion charges, including those which may vary by time of day, by the specific road, or by the specific vehicle type, being used.[1] Road pricing has two distinct objectives: revenue generation, usually for road infrastructure financing, and congestion pricing for demand management purposes. Toll roads, toll bridges and toll tunnels are the typical examples of revenue generation, covering maintenance costs or as a means of raising funds for other purposes. Charges for using high-occupancy toll lanes or urban tolls for entering a restricted area of a city are typical examples of using road pricing for congestion management purposes.[2][3]
It is unfortunate that reference 1 is a broken link. I note that reference 2 doesn't mention that fuel taxes, license fees or parking charges are related to road pricing - it only mentions that parking costs may be reduced with reduced traffic. The 3rd reference is probably the best. It is a link to the FHWA road pricing page which doesn't mention fuel taxes etc either: [8]
Road pricing involves charging fees for the use of a roadway facility. The revenue generated may be used to pay for highway operations and maintenance or as the primary source of repayment for long-term debt used to finance a toll facility itself. There are two primary variants: Tolling involves the imposition of a per-use fee on motorists to utilize a highway. Historically, these fees have involved fixed, distance-based tolls that vary by vehicle type, but not by time of day. Their primary purpose has been to generate revenue. Pricing involves the imposition of fees or tolls that vary by level of vehicle demand a highway facility. Also known as congestion pricing, value pricing, variable pricing, peak-period pricing, or market-based pricing - this manages demand by imposing a fee that varies by time of day, location, type of vehicle, number of occupants, or other factors. While pricing generates revenue, this strategy also seeks to manage congestion, environmental impacts, and other external costs occasioned by road users.
That definition does however match well with my most recent version of the lead (which was reverted back the the top one):
Road pricing (also road user charging, congestion pricing, road tolls) involves charging fees for the use of a road facility. More recently charges are often made for the purpose of reducing transport demand and influencing the transport modal choice where charges typically are based on the time of day, the number of vehicle occupants, current road congestion levels or possibly other factors. Traditionally charges were made for Toll roads, Toll bridges and Toll tunnels for the purpose of recovering construction costs, covering maintenance costs or as a means of raising funds for other purposes.[1] Where road pricing is used for the purpose of reducing transport demand it is recommended that charges are based on the costs imposed on others, including environmental costs, social costs and road congestion. Proposals have often been met by sufficient opposition that implementation of schemes has been abandoned. Where schemes have been introduced, traffic volumes have typically dropped by 15% and traffic speeds have increased. (Reference 1 is to the FHWA road pricing page quoted above)
That last version was revert to the first version with the comment 'restoring the article to its original state and definition of road pricing, as supported by reliable sources' which it isn't!
Any thought? -- PeterEastern ( talk) 19:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
I suggest we build up a table of official definitions of road pricing from different organisations. Please add to this table as you see fit. PeterEastern ( talk) 10:02, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Authority | Country | Date | Definition | Comment |
---|---|---|---|---|
Parliament of Victoria | Australia | 2010 | Road pricing, also known as road user charging, involves the application of a direct price on road use. Road pricing is a broad term which is often used to refer to both: comprehensive road pricing, which involves charging road users for travel on all roads within a given road network, such as a particular city, region or nation; and congestion charging, which is more limited in scope than comprehensive road pricing and involves charging road users for travel on specific roads or sections of a road network, particularly during peak periods, with the primary aim of reducing road congestion. It is important to note that a comprehensive road pricing system could include a charge on congestion. There are a number of possible road pricing measures that may be used to implement congestion charging, including: facility charging (tolling) – a charge paid by a motorist for passing through a particular section of road; and cordon and area charging – both measures refer to a charge for accessing a defined part of an urban network, usually linked with a central business district. The primary aim is to ration demand within an area that has highly concentrated road activity. An area scheme differs from a cordon scheme in that, in addition to charging for movements into and out of a defined area, it also charges for movements within the area. Measures for the implementation of comprehensive road pricing are known as network-wide charging, which may incorporate elements of each of the above measures, and may also involve charging a motorist for journeys within a network of different facilities, cordons or areas.3 Comprehensive road pricing, in the form of network-wide pricing, can be applied to a city, region or nationally.4 [9] page 143 | A useful distinction between road pricing and congestion pricing |
Victoria Transport Policy Institute | Canada | 2012 | Road Pricing means that motorists pay directly for driving on a particular roadway or in a particular area. [10] | |
Transport Select Committee | UK | 2005 | A national road pricing system would move away from the current motoring taxation system, to a system in which drivers paid directly to use the road. The charges paid would vary depending on the degree of congestion and be calculated according to the distance travelled. [11] | |
Federal Highway Administration | USA | Current | Road pricing refers to a fee related to the use of a roadway facility. Revenue from these fees can be reinvested in capacity expansion or used to pay for operations and maintenance. Toll revenue, specifically, is also the primary source of repayment for long-term debt issued to finance a toll facility itself. In general, tolling involves the imposition of a per-use fee on motorists for a given highway facility. Historically, these fees have generally been flat tolls that may vary by number of axles and distance driven, but not by time of day. Their primary purpose is to generate revenue. The term pricing, as applied to road usage, entails fees or tolls that vary by level of vehicle demand on the facility. This type of road pricing is also called congestion pricing, value pricing, variable pricing, peak-period pricing, or market-based pricing. This pricing strategy follows that used in other industries to account for and manage demand - for example, airline tickets, cell phone rates, and electricity rates. While pricing generates revenue, as do flat tolls, this strategy also seeks to reduce congestion, environmental impacts, or other external costs occasioned by road users. Road pricing imposes a price on a vehicle's use of the road based on time of day, location, type of vehicle, number of occupants, or other factors. Aside from the generation of revenues, proponents of road pricing cite the fee's potential to reduce the wasted time, fuel, and emissions associated with traffic congestion. Further detail on types of road pricing is also provided in this section. [12] | |
Texas Transportation Institute | USA | Current | An umbrella phrase that covers all charges imposed on those who use roadways. The term includes such traditional revenue sources as fuel taxes and license fees as well as charges that vary with time of day, the specific road used, and vehicle size and weight. [13] | Unusually, this definition includes fuel taxes and 'license fees'. |
There is a continuing discussion about the distinctions between 'road pricing' and 'road congestion pricing'. Possibly we can agree on the definitions of these in this section and then reflect that across the different articles. I have had a quick go at two initial definitions. PeterEastern ( talk) 11:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Question: are congestion charging schemes that incentivise use of green vehicles actually congestion charging schemes, or are the in fact 'road pricing' schemes'. If so then how to we manage them? PeterEastern ( talk) 11:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Please adjust the following definitions below and leave a comment above regarding the change you have made. Lets continue until we are happy with the final text.
I note that the a 'citation needed' tag has been added three times to the lead sentence that reads "Annual vehicle taxation, excise taxes on fuel, and parking charges are not generally considered to be 'road pricing". The claim as written appears to be supported by the terminolgy section which has citations to a number of key sources, all but one of which do not include any mention of fuel taxes or parking charges. It is of course hard to include a citation which relates to the lack of evidence for something directly. I would also like to highlight that my requests to editor making these changes on this subject has not responded to my requests for clarification in earlier sections of this talk page. As such I would suggest that the evidence for the claim is sufficiently clear and that the citation needed tag should be removed. Any thoughts? PeterEastern ( talk) 06:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
For the record, an 'Expert needed' tag was added to this article today with the comment "requesting expert opinion (the editor of the most recent edits seems to be confused about the difference between road pricing and congestion pricing), I have tried to help (see talk but he continues to include content mainly about congestion pricing".
The 3rd para of the lead, which contained a discussion about parking fees and fuel duty was removed at the same time with the comment "(rmv more primary research --> you need a reliable source to say it is a minority view, as written is your original research as you are drawing conclusions from the limited sources available)".
A reference to Google ngram which indicated that the term 'road pricing' came into use in about 1963-1964 was also removed with the comment "rmv blatant original research (the editor draw this conclusion using Google, this is primary research". I note that my questions for clarification on the matter from 22 April remain unanswered.
A similar tag was also added to the Road pricing in the United Kingdom article at the same time with the comment "adding tag to request expert opinion, the editor who created this article seems to be confused about the technical meanings of road pricing and congestion pricing".
I note that my questions for clarification from the 22 April remain unanswered. I was surprised to find that the person from whom I am awaiting these responses has made numerous edits to other motoring related articles, in particular to articles about various models of green vehicles, over this period.
Given the lack of progress and the fact that my involvement in these articles was primarily in order to create clear accurate definitions for them, I am now coming to the conclusion that this matter will not be resolved without arbitration. For the record, virtually every edit I have made to the congestion charging article over the past few weeks has been removed the comments along the lines of 'this is a good article, don't change it'. Personally I think it is a pretty poor article, but that is a subject for another time and another talk page. It is however relevant to this issue.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 07:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
I am signing off from editing this and related articles for the time being after experiencing more reverts and less engagement than with any other subject on Wikipedia over a 4 year period. After one month I have still not had a response from Mariodo to my request for him to justify using certain references to support the claim in the first sentence of the lead that road pricing included fuel taxes and parking charges and then today he again removed the last reference to parking charges and fuel duty from the lead (which clarified that parking charges were not included in any of the definition of road pricing used as a source for this article and that fuel taxes were only included in one out of five definitions).
I have considered raising our disagreement on one of the dispute resolution boards, but have concluded that it is probably not worth the effort because the article is no longer wrong, it just isn't as good as it could be. I will continue to watch the article and may get involved again if any new people start contributing.
For the record I spent about about 30 minutes this evening polishing the wording of the lead to make it read better without changing the meaning. These changes were unfortunately reverted yet again within 12 minutes of my submitting them. I am sure it could be improved, but here it is in case anyone wants to use any of it in the future:
Road pricing (also Road User Charges) are direct charges levied for the use of roads, including road tolls, distance or time based fees, congestion charges and charges designed to discourage use of certain classes of vehicle, fuel sources or more polluting vehicles. These charges may be used primarily for revenue generation, usually for road infrastructure financing; they may alternatively be used to reduce peak transport demand and the associated traffic congestion or incorporate a price for other social and environmental negative externalities associated with a choice of transport such as air pollution, noise and road casualties.
Toll roads, toll bridges and toll tunnels were often used primarily for revenue generation; charges for entering a city centre, for use of low-occupancy vehicles using High-occupancy vehicle lane lanes and for use of vehicles with higher emissions typically include a cost for other externalities. A minority view holds that road pricing includes more generic motoring taxation, such as fuel taxes and annual vehicle license fees. [1] Parking fees are not considered as road pricing. [2]
Many recent road pricing schemes have proved controversial with a number of high profile schemes being cancelled, delayed or scaled back in response to opposition and protest.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 23:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
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Earlier this evening, user 86.145.193.138 removed a couple of links from the External Links section, including one to the BBC News that I had added a couple of days ago. These links were replaced with a note indicating that news items could be reached via the website of the National Alliance Against Tolls. This organization is strongly hostile to the notion of road pricing, which it describes as "daft". I believe that Wikipedia's NPOV policy implies that relevant news items should be referenced directly, and not via a partisan organization. I have therefore restored the links removed by 86.145.193.138. -- RichardVeryard 23:40, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I have twice added a line to the 'Criticisms' section, detailing and linking to a current petition against road pricing in the UK. I think that this illustrates the concerns of a majority of the general public on this issue. 'Thisisbossi', why do you keep removing it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.47.246.81 ( talk) 14 December 2006, 13:40 (UTC)
To hopefully bump this section and garner some additional feedback: I'd appreciate some more response on the inclusion of this petition, which seems to thoroughly violate WP:EL. The History for the article is getting cluttered with people doing little more than update the date and number of this item which supports a bias against the topic; and is one of numerous petitions of its kind. If there is no adequate response as to how this is acceptable within Wikipedia, this will be removed. -- Thisisbossi 22:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Against - Egads no: they are nothing alike! I suspect this to be vandalism on the part of an anonymous contributor, particularly as he/she left no explanation of his/her intentions. I will remove this tag tomorrow barring any legitimate issues in support of a merge. -- Thisisbossi 04:25, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Against -- as per previous discussions. A toll road is a type of road, whereas road pricing is more of a concept. This would appear to be another example of an unnecessary merge. Incidentally, the merge banners were place on 9th Feb and it will be possible to remove them at the end of the week, since the concensus would appear to be 'against merge'. -- EdJogg 13:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC) Against' -- as per previous discussions and because the rationale behind each is different. Road pricing (or road user charging as it should be called) is about demand management i.e to improve road conditions, tolling is about revenue raising.-- JBellis 20:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Against. Over here in Singapore where road pricing has been around for decades (and which has been the model which London studied before its implimentation), there is incidently no toll road at all. Tolls roads are often typified as being charged for use round-the-clock, as a form of revenue reimbursing the cost of constructing that road specifically. Users often have to pay more the longer they drive along that road, which may be accomplished by passing through multiple gantries. Road pricing typically charged vehicles for entry into a specific zone only during specific periods to ease congestion, and typically involves just one gantry involving a flat fare to be paid irregardless of actual distance travelled within that area. Of course there may be variations, such as the one in Singapore which has two main zones with one within the other, thus there are two gantries to pass through if the user wishes to drive right into the city centre, but the principal of road management remains the same.-- Huaiwei 15:34, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
Against. Road pricing covers entire urban areas, "toll road" only individual roads. Toll road is a subset of road pricing, if anything it should be merged to here. Cambrasa ( talk) 22:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Shouldn't we mention that this is often called "C-charge" in the UK? (Including media news outlets etc.)
138.243.129.4
07:50, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
"Note that some libertarians in general, however, favor transfer of roads to private ownership, which is likely to result in tolls for individual roads, set on a profit-maximizing rather than an economic welfare-maximizing basis, which in many cases is likely to lead to a higher toll." -- I'm not sure this is a relevant answer to the libertarian freedom of movement argument. After all, in the libertarian utopia private roads might have tolls, but there wouldn't be high gov't taxes either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.163.133.86 ( talk • contribs)
True, however roads would no longer be free at the point of usage, which is what the "libertarian" ABD wants to preserve, government or no government Cambrasa ( talk) 22:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm changing this...
"Note that some libertarians in general, however, favour transfer of roads to private ownership, which is likely to result in tolls for individual roads, set on a profit-maximizing rather than an economic welfare-maximizing basis, which in many cases is likely to lead to a higher toll"
...because it doesn't have a citation, it's most likely untrue, and it confuses the issue. Firstly, and most importantly, it's far too bold a statement to make without a citation. Secondly, to libertarians, the whole principle of privatizing the roads is that, within the free market, there will be competition, which lowers prices. This is backed up by the fact that public schools cost twice as much as private schools (here is a sample study: http://www.mackinac.org/archives/1997/s1997-04.pdf); and that pre-1970 interstate airline fares under the regulation of the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) cost twice as much as within state airfares of similar distance (since they were unregulated and dealt with competition) and decreased in price when the CAB deregulated and competition forces started working again; etc etc, there are many examples. Thirdly, there is an invented dichotomy between "profit-maximizing" and "economic welfare-maximizing". The latter is an invented term and misses the fact that, to a libertarian or economist at least, profit-maximizing is welfare-maximizing for the reasons I've already gone over (companies seek profit> compete> prices decrease> to the benefit of all man). 68.81.97.59 ( talk) 01:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
In response to the deletion of the New York congestion pricing proposal here, there is no reason (I think) not to include noteworthy proposals from other places, as long as they were considered or studied at the governmental level. Notable failed or stalled proposals are just as important and relevant as implemented ones. It's your job to include them.
From what I found from a web search, Toronto's mayor doesn't want it [1] and Chicago is only in the preliminary stages [2]. If you want to include those cities and others–with sources–you can and I support that. But NY's plan has support at the city and federal level. Even if NY's proposal is ultimately defeated, it has been widely talked about and reported in New York City as much as the New York City 2012 Olympic bid or the West Side Stadium, and is therefore still notable. TLK 'in 08:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the following
Various trials have taken place in British cities - the City of Cambridge in the United Kingdom, for example, had experimented with congestion charging as far back as 1993. [3]
The para implies there was a real live congestion charge in place, and the source notwithstanding, this is not the case. I'm afraid I don't know more, but i'm guessing maybe it was a very small scale trial with a small number of volunteers or something. (I've lived in Cambridge since 1985, and driven in Cambridge for most of that time, so I would certainly have noticed if there had been a congestion charge at any point.)
Of course, Cambridgeshire is bidding for TIF money so a Cambridge congestion charge is on the cards for the future. Roy Badami 20:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Going a step further to the old proposal to merge this article (see above), road pricing is a very general concept from economics, but in practical terms, as I added to the article, it has two distinct objectives: revenue generation and congestion pricing for demand management purposes. Toll roads are the typical example of revenue generation. Charges for using high-occupancy toll (HOT) lanes or entering a restricted area of a city are typical examples of using road pricing for congestion management (see [4] for a very comprehensive summary on this subject). Electronic toll collection is a technology that can be use for both of these objectives.
If you look a the specific cases in this article, all but the German one refer to congestion pricing (which I already edit to explain the general economic concept), and most of the cases presented here (Singapore, London, Stockholm, New York, etc.) have their own articles. Therefore, the content of the article as it is now, refers mainly to pricing for congestion management purposes.
My suggestion is to relocate "Road pricing" as a more general separate article, and leave most of the actual text here under a new article's name. The new article's name could be "Traffic congestion pricing" or "Road congestion pricing", even though that the concept and most of existing schemes refer to urban areas, so an alternative will be a specific article named "Urban traffic congestion pricing" (as I called it in the more general congestion pricing article). The specific economic rationale for this pricing system could be included in the article, as it is related with the externalities of auto travel in urban areas, such us air pollution, noise, urban deterioration, and the extra costs and delays impose upon other drivers due to congestion, and mainly, to the more efficient public transportation vehicles.
If this suggestion is accepted, the main "Road pricing" article will have the basic economic rationale for all type of fees, tolls, etc, and a reference for all existing applications in the world. From there, the article will branch out to specific (existing) articles on Toll roads, Electronic toll collection, the proposed new article on "Traffic Congestion Pricing" (from where case specific articles will branch out) and any other related article will be referenced from this new main article.
-- Mariordo ( talk) 14:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
And by the way, there is an article called Electronic Road Pricing which refers only to Singapore, city that for some time was the only one to have an urban congestion pricing scheme in the world, but not anymore, since London, Stockholm and other cities have it (as you can check from this article). I try to change the name for "Singapore's Electronic Road Pricing" and added the "worldwide view" wiki banner, but one of the main contributors of that article deleted, and he does not want to recognize that this is no longer a country-specific scheme. You can see that similar articles are called with country specific tags such as London congestion charge or Stockholm congestion tax or New York congestion pricing. For consistency, I think this change would have also to be made. Mariordo ( talk) 14:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
I am proposing to create a new article with a title of Road pricing in the United Kingdom. Does anyone have any comments or observations? Is that the best name? Road pricing is certainly the term used in the UK. I would move some of the detail from this article to this new article. There is also some stray general road pricing content at the bottom of the London congestion charge article that I would integrate. PeterEastern ( talk) 07:37, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
My edits to the congestion pricing article and to this one have just been reverted with the comments Sorry to revert the whole thing but road pricing is different from congestion pricing, what you are doing is original research. [5] and Rv Good faith edit: your ideas of what road pricing and congestion pricing are is wrong, road pric is more general. [6]
I do agree they are different which is why I did not propose a merge.
Here are the descriptions I included in the about banners for four related article (congestion pricing, road pricing, toll road and road space rationing) to try to make the scope of the articles clearer and reduce overlap:.
Now.. I do agree that one could consider that 'Road pricing' includes 'road tolls' as well as congestion pricing which relates to the use of road space. You will notice that the road pricing banner did not say that road tolls were not a type of road pricing, but only that the article didn't cover road tolls. I do agree that my lead was probably incorrect, which used to read Road pricing (also road user charging, congestion pricing, road tolls) involves charging fees for the use of a road facility for the purpose of reducing transport demand and influencing the transport modal choice. Charges typically are based on the time of day, the number of vehicle occupants, current road congestion levels or possibly other factors.
I am now going to reinstate my last versions or these two articles and adjust the lead of road pricing.
Can I request that we discuss the matter here before reverting again.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 14:12, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
I think you have all done well to bring the issues to the Talk page and discuss them calmly in the way you have. I support what Ebikeguy has said about reviewing proposed changes and coming to consensus before implementing them. As he says, "The articles, as they stand, are mature, and
Congestion pricing is a GA, so it is best that we err on the side of caution before making major changes".
Johnfos (
talk)
20:15, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
The current lead to this article states: [7]
Road pricing is an economic concept regarding the various direct charges applied for the use of roads. The road charges includes fuel taxes, licence fees, parking taxes, tolls, and congestion charges, including those which may vary by time of day, by the specific road, or by the specific vehicle type, being used.[1] Road pricing has two distinct objectives: revenue generation, usually for road infrastructure financing, and congestion pricing for demand management purposes. Toll roads, toll bridges and toll tunnels are the typical examples of revenue generation, covering maintenance costs or as a means of raising funds for other purposes. Charges for using high-occupancy toll lanes or urban tolls for entering a restricted area of a city are typical examples of using road pricing for congestion management purposes.[2][3]
It is unfortunate that reference 1 is a broken link. I note that reference 2 doesn't mention that fuel taxes, license fees or parking charges are related to road pricing - it only mentions that parking costs may be reduced with reduced traffic. The 3rd reference is probably the best. It is a link to the FHWA road pricing page which doesn't mention fuel taxes etc either: [8]
Road pricing involves charging fees for the use of a roadway facility. The revenue generated may be used to pay for highway operations and maintenance or as the primary source of repayment for long-term debt used to finance a toll facility itself. There are two primary variants: Tolling involves the imposition of a per-use fee on motorists to utilize a highway. Historically, these fees have involved fixed, distance-based tolls that vary by vehicle type, but not by time of day. Their primary purpose has been to generate revenue. Pricing involves the imposition of fees or tolls that vary by level of vehicle demand a highway facility. Also known as congestion pricing, value pricing, variable pricing, peak-period pricing, or market-based pricing - this manages demand by imposing a fee that varies by time of day, location, type of vehicle, number of occupants, or other factors. While pricing generates revenue, this strategy also seeks to manage congestion, environmental impacts, and other external costs occasioned by road users.
That definition does however match well with my most recent version of the lead (which was reverted back the the top one):
Road pricing (also road user charging, congestion pricing, road tolls) involves charging fees for the use of a road facility. More recently charges are often made for the purpose of reducing transport demand and influencing the transport modal choice where charges typically are based on the time of day, the number of vehicle occupants, current road congestion levels or possibly other factors. Traditionally charges were made for Toll roads, Toll bridges and Toll tunnels for the purpose of recovering construction costs, covering maintenance costs or as a means of raising funds for other purposes.[1] Where road pricing is used for the purpose of reducing transport demand it is recommended that charges are based on the costs imposed on others, including environmental costs, social costs and road congestion. Proposals have often been met by sufficient opposition that implementation of schemes has been abandoned. Where schemes have been introduced, traffic volumes have typically dropped by 15% and traffic speeds have increased. (Reference 1 is to the FHWA road pricing page quoted above)
That last version was revert to the first version with the comment 'restoring the article to its original state and definition of road pricing, as supported by reliable sources' which it isn't!
Any thought? -- PeterEastern ( talk) 19:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
I suggest we build up a table of official definitions of road pricing from different organisations. Please add to this table as you see fit. PeterEastern ( talk) 10:02, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
Authority | Country | Date | Definition | Comment |
---|---|---|---|---|
Parliament of Victoria | Australia | 2010 | Road pricing, also known as road user charging, involves the application of a direct price on road use. Road pricing is a broad term which is often used to refer to both: comprehensive road pricing, which involves charging road users for travel on all roads within a given road network, such as a particular city, region or nation; and congestion charging, which is more limited in scope than comprehensive road pricing and involves charging road users for travel on specific roads or sections of a road network, particularly during peak periods, with the primary aim of reducing road congestion. It is important to note that a comprehensive road pricing system could include a charge on congestion. There are a number of possible road pricing measures that may be used to implement congestion charging, including: facility charging (tolling) – a charge paid by a motorist for passing through a particular section of road; and cordon and area charging – both measures refer to a charge for accessing a defined part of an urban network, usually linked with a central business district. The primary aim is to ration demand within an area that has highly concentrated road activity. An area scheme differs from a cordon scheme in that, in addition to charging for movements into and out of a defined area, it also charges for movements within the area. Measures for the implementation of comprehensive road pricing are known as network-wide charging, which may incorporate elements of each of the above measures, and may also involve charging a motorist for journeys within a network of different facilities, cordons or areas.3 Comprehensive road pricing, in the form of network-wide pricing, can be applied to a city, region or nationally.4 [9] page 143 | A useful distinction between road pricing and congestion pricing |
Victoria Transport Policy Institute | Canada | 2012 | Road Pricing means that motorists pay directly for driving on a particular roadway or in a particular area. [10] | |
Transport Select Committee | UK | 2005 | A national road pricing system would move away from the current motoring taxation system, to a system in which drivers paid directly to use the road. The charges paid would vary depending on the degree of congestion and be calculated according to the distance travelled. [11] | |
Federal Highway Administration | USA | Current | Road pricing refers to a fee related to the use of a roadway facility. Revenue from these fees can be reinvested in capacity expansion or used to pay for operations and maintenance. Toll revenue, specifically, is also the primary source of repayment for long-term debt issued to finance a toll facility itself. In general, tolling involves the imposition of a per-use fee on motorists for a given highway facility. Historically, these fees have generally been flat tolls that may vary by number of axles and distance driven, but not by time of day. Their primary purpose is to generate revenue. The term pricing, as applied to road usage, entails fees or tolls that vary by level of vehicle demand on the facility. This type of road pricing is also called congestion pricing, value pricing, variable pricing, peak-period pricing, or market-based pricing. This pricing strategy follows that used in other industries to account for and manage demand - for example, airline tickets, cell phone rates, and electricity rates. While pricing generates revenue, as do flat tolls, this strategy also seeks to reduce congestion, environmental impacts, or other external costs occasioned by road users. Road pricing imposes a price on a vehicle's use of the road based on time of day, location, type of vehicle, number of occupants, or other factors. Aside from the generation of revenues, proponents of road pricing cite the fee's potential to reduce the wasted time, fuel, and emissions associated with traffic congestion. Further detail on types of road pricing is also provided in this section. [12] | |
Texas Transportation Institute | USA | Current | An umbrella phrase that covers all charges imposed on those who use roadways. The term includes such traditional revenue sources as fuel taxes and license fees as well as charges that vary with time of day, the specific road used, and vehicle size and weight. [13] | Unusually, this definition includes fuel taxes and 'license fees'. |
There is a continuing discussion about the distinctions between 'road pricing' and 'road congestion pricing'. Possibly we can agree on the definitions of these in this section and then reflect that across the different articles. I have had a quick go at two initial definitions. PeterEastern ( talk) 11:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Question: are congestion charging schemes that incentivise use of green vehicles actually congestion charging schemes, or are the in fact 'road pricing' schemes'. If so then how to we manage them? PeterEastern ( talk) 11:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Please adjust the following definitions below and leave a comment above regarding the change you have made. Lets continue until we are happy with the final text.
I note that the a 'citation needed' tag has been added three times to the lead sentence that reads "Annual vehicle taxation, excise taxes on fuel, and parking charges are not generally considered to be 'road pricing". The claim as written appears to be supported by the terminolgy section which has citations to a number of key sources, all but one of which do not include any mention of fuel taxes or parking charges. It is of course hard to include a citation which relates to the lack of evidence for something directly. I would also like to highlight that my requests to editor making these changes on this subject has not responded to my requests for clarification in earlier sections of this talk page. As such I would suggest that the evidence for the claim is sufficiently clear and that the citation needed tag should be removed. Any thoughts? PeterEastern ( talk) 06:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
For the record, an 'Expert needed' tag was added to this article today with the comment "requesting expert opinion (the editor of the most recent edits seems to be confused about the difference between road pricing and congestion pricing), I have tried to help (see talk but he continues to include content mainly about congestion pricing".
The 3rd para of the lead, which contained a discussion about parking fees and fuel duty was removed at the same time with the comment "(rmv more primary research --> you need a reliable source to say it is a minority view, as written is your original research as you are drawing conclusions from the limited sources available)".
A reference to Google ngram which indicated that the term 'road pricing' came into use in about 1963-1964 was also removed with the comment "rmv blatant original research (the editor draw this conclusion using Google, this is primary research". I note that my questions for clarification on the matter from 22 April remain unanswered.
A similar tag was also added to the Road pricing in the United Kingdom article at the same time with the comment "adding tag to request expert opinion, the editor who created this article seems to be confused about the technical meanings of road pricing and congestion pricing".
I note that my questions for clarification from the 22 April remain unanswered. I was surprised to find that the person from whom I am awaiting these responses has made numerous edits to other motoring related articles, in particular to articles about various models of green vehicles, over this period.
Given the lack of progress and the fact that my involvement in these articles was primarily in order to create clear accurate definitions for them, I am now coming to the conclusion that this matter will not be resolved without arbitration. For the record, virtually every edit I have made to the congestion charging article over the past few weeks has been removed the comments along the lines of 'this is a good article, don't change it'. Personally I think it is a pretty poor article, but that is a subject for another time and another talk page. It is however relevant to this issue.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 07:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
I am signing off from editing this and related articles for the time being after experiencing more reverts and less engagement than with any other subject on Wikipedia over a 4 year period. After one month I have still not had a response from Mariodo to my request for him to justify using certain references to support the claim in the first sentence of the lead that road pricing included fuel taxes and parking charges and then today he again removed the last reference to parking charges and fuel duty from the lead (which clarified that parking charges were not included in any of the definition of road pricing used as a source for this article and that fuel taxes were only included in one out of five definitions).
I have considered raising our disagreement on one of the dispute resolution boards, but have concluded that it is probably not worth the effort because the article is no longer wrong, it just isn't as good as it could be. I will continue to watch the article and may get involved again if any new people start contributing.
For the record I spent about about 30 minutes this evening polishing the wording of the lead to make it read better without changing the meaning. These changes were unfortunately reverted yet again within 12 minutes of my submitting them. I am sure it could be improved, but here it is in case anyone wants to use any of it in the future:
Road pricing (also Road User Charges) are direct charges levied for the use of roads, including road tolls, distance or time based fees, congestion charges and charges designed to discourage use of certain classes of vehicle, fuel sources or more polluting vehicles. These charges may be used primarily for revenue generation, usually for road infrastructure financing; they may alternatively be used to reduce peak transport demand and the associated traffic congestion or incorporate a price for other social and environmental negative externalities associated with a choice of transport such as air pollution, noise and road casualties.
Toll roads, toll bridges and toll tunnels were often used primarily for revenue generation; charges for entering a city centre, for use of low-occupancy vehicles using High-occupancy vehicle lane lanes and for use of vehicles with higher emissions typically include a cost for other externalities. A minority view holds that road pricing includes more generic motoring taxation, such as fuel taxes and annual vehicle license fees. [1] Parking fees are not considered as road pricing. [2]
Many recent road pricing schemes have proved controversial with a number of high profile schemes being cancelled, delayed or scaled back in response to opposition and protest.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 23:47, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
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Just a heads-up that as part of an editathon I'm leading on June 17, new editors might be making some edits to this article. I'll be following up shortly afterwards to check for copyright compliance and other quality issues and will clean up stuff if needed. Cheers, Clayoquot ( talk | contribs) 23:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)