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I have noticed the discussion on the validity of the title of Prince born by Prince Nicolo Boncompagni-Ludovisi and of that of Prince of Piombino. The view taken here that the use of European titles is somehow improper and that therefore their bearers should be ridiculed, or at best referred to as styled, displays a mistaken and factually incorrect view of history and, indeed, the present day legal treatment of such titles. It seems that the editor of the page on Prince Nicolo’s wife does not accept that her husband should be given the title Prince on the pages of Wikipedia – although he is so referred to on other parts of the English language Wikipedia and also in other language Wiki sites. Such an attitude reflects a personal bias that is inappropriate in a source which purports to be authoritative.
The first point is that these titles were created by lawful authorities with the right to pass to descendants according to various forms. In the case of the title of Prince Boncompagni-Ludovisi, the Holy Roman Empire was a lawful authority, the title was created according to the proper forms and passed to all descendants in the male line (and to females until marriage). There has never been any form of retroactive law to repeal the grant of this or any other Holy Roman Empire title and indeed, since the abolition of the Empire in 1806, no body exists that could effect such abolition. The title of Prince of Piombino was granted as an immediate sovereign fief of the same Empire and continued to be held by the heirs of the first grantee, but as a feudatory along with Elba, of the Crown of Naples, after passing to the Boncompagni-Ludovisi family by inheritance, until Piombino was confiscated by the French in 1799. It was then promised to be returned to the Boncompagni-Ludovisi heirs at the Congress of Vienna but, instead, was ultimately incorporated into Tuscany (Article 100 of the Acts of the Congress of Vienna of 9 June 1815), with the title of Prince of Piombino consistently recognised for the head of the Boncompagni-Ludovisi family by the Powers. This title descends by male primogeniture (as do the other Boncompagni-Ludovisi titles of Prince of Venosa and Duke of Sora and Arce, etc).
These titles have never been abolished; the Italian Republic does not recognise their use but has not attempted to deprive the descendants of the grantees of such titles of their titles, which have never been abolished or suppressed in Italian law – Italian law merely provides that they cannot be used in official documents as they are not recognised; despite, this a junior member of the family who received the grand cross of Merit of the Italian Republic was accorded the use of the title prince in the diploma and on the official web site of the Order of Merit. The Italian Republic does recognise legal predicati, and those of the Princes Boncompagni-Ludovisi, including that of Piombino.
The Holy See, however, continues to recognise titles granted by past Popes and, indeed, these and other titles granted by lawful authority are used at the Papal Court. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta whose sovereign status is recognised by 103 states, including Italy, also recognises legitimately accorded noble titles and uses them in official acts (and members of the Boncompagni-Ludovisio family who are knights of Malta have been accorded the title of Prince on their diploma and in other official acts).
GuyStairSainty ( talk) 10:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC) Guy Sainty, www.chivalricorders.org (guy@nospam.sainty.org) - for the entry on the Boncompagni-Ludovisi family see http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/piombgen.htm
I see a person described as "Hullaballoo Wolfowitz" has questioned my credentials in regard to my comments below on the titles of Prince Nicola Boncompagni-Ludovisi; my web site www.chivalricorders.org is widely cited (including as a source on Wikipedia) and is compiled from a variety of sources - in the case of this particular family, the Almanach de Gotha (the last entry on this family was in the 1943 edition, where on page 390 the birth of Prince Nicolo to Prince Gregorio and his wife is recorded), the Starke Genealogisches Handbuch der Furstlichen Hauser, volume XIV 1991, Ruvigny Titled Nobility of Europe, 1914, the Enciclopedia Storico-Nobiliare Italiana, by Vittorio Spreti Volume II, and the Libro d'Oro della Nobilta Italiana (most recent edition XXIII, volume XXVII, 2005-2009) all of which I have in complete sets in my library. In addition I am a member of the Royal Academy of Heraldry and Genealogy in Madrid, and have published articles on nobility and royalty in numerous scholarly magazines. I have never seen or even heard of any person by the name of Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ever publishing anything on European nobility or royalty and am bemused at this suggestion that such matters as genealogy are matters of opinion, rather than fact.
This article [1], a puff piece, says as much.
It has been widely substantiated that Rita does not possess a Harvard MBA. It would be good to list the ISBN number for her books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StyleIcons ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I feel that I am " the coward that edited this page."
Since the editor, User:Princessrbl, claims to be Jenrette herself (see previous link), then she represents a conflict of interest and has taken a decidedly uncivil tone.
Princessrbl, please post your concerns with the article here (and in a civil tone) so that they can be dealt with in an appropriate manner. Your attack against me, or anyone else, does not help. Nor does blanking the page.
As for the admin that protected the page, I'd like to request that you also protect the image of Jenrette. If she is willing to disrupt Wikipedia by page blanking and name calling, it follows that she may try to blank the image page on Commons as well. If you are not an admin on Commons, I'm requesting that you ask an admin there to protect it for us. Thanks, Dismas| (talk) 05:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
While there's a complete lack of high quality sources for Jenrette's second marriage (no doubt because of its marginal notability), I suppose we have to use something. How about this: [2]? And is anyone completely opposed to leaving "prince" in? -- NeilN talk ♦ contribs 00:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I have known Rita for almost two decades. We first met through the theatre and while Rita was appearing on stage in one play, she graciously agreed to do a staged reading of one of mine.
Thereafter, Rita and I became close friends and we shared many experiences--some filled with joy and laughter and others less happy. So what's new?
Rita's notoriety has frequently been the source of pain for her. I have observed that many women, in particular, are prone to saying unkind things about her without any real basis in fact. The fact that Rita is an extraordinarily beautiful woman hasn't made her life any easier in many respects.
Throughout our long friendship, I have found Rita to be honest, generous, and reliable. I am proud to have her as one of my dearest friends.
-- Gordon Osmond ( talk) 13:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not trying to be controversial or libelous, but calling her second pictorial "semi-nude" would be stretching common definition of nudity. Google image searches don't lie. Every contemporary newspaper article I found about the pictorial using Google news search, referred to it as nude.
Calling it simply a "pictorial in Playboy" conveys the message without provoking a controversy. G&E ( talk) 18:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Why for heavens sake does only one of our good old notorious authors (see history of this article) delete at least twice a day all well and 100% referenced historical facts about the noble italian family of Jenrettes husband Prince Nicolo Boncompagni Ludovisi (see chapter "Second marriage") and about her own clearly stated descent from a noble english family (see chapter "Family history"), or her degree obtained at Harvard Business School and finally the awards she won as a stage actress etc? Why has all of this this daily been replaced by historically wrong, slanderous and libelous details or completely deleted as pretended "poorly referenced", whilst instead clearly and 100% proven by a multitude of best and first class references?! If people are not familiar with these evident facts on europeen nobility that can be looked up easily in each library (also in the US, of course) or in the internet (google books etc.), why do they have to be deleted and replaced by libelous and completely wrong pretensions like "the couple styles themselves as Prince and Princess..." or her husbands "claims to be..."? Sorry to insist from a professional point of view as a historian, but they a r e Prince and Princess Boncompagni Ludovisi even though these titles are of no particular political meaning nowadays! Why is it ignored, by deleting the whole chapter over and over again, that noble titles were restituted to all italian nobility after the Congress of Vienna in 1815 (Art. 100), after having taken away from Napoleon only temporarily in 1806? What about reading the books proposed in the annotations instead of replacing right things by completely wrong ones? What about those ten thousands of hits under the name of Boncompagni Ludovisi at google?! Why has the following link been deleted at least 25 times by o n l y that one and only specific Wikipedia author who claims himself to be, let's say God or whatever even if it proves easily and undoubtedly the royal descent of that family and as well of Jenrettes husband: http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/piombgen.htm
This is all slightly disappointing and obviously rather weird...
Or: Why insisting constantly that Prince Boncompagni Ludovisi should be called a "perfume entrepreneur" for it is completely evident, that he just comissioned a fragrance only once in his lifetime on the occasion of his wedding with Rita Jenrette in 2009? Only try to find a second fragrance he presumingly has created! Nothing, sorry....!! All of this is absolutely ignorant and absurd.
I want to have your clear opinion on this subject, hopefully from serious authors not fighting a private battle against a living person or claiming themselves as kinds of Sheriff of the Internet. This has to be stopped right now! That controversial author in question states on his page being in the past that much in conflict with other authors that he therefore once retired from Wikipedia for a long, long, long time to keep, as he writes, his grandchildren instead!! Good gracious... Probably he is a good guy who enjoys his retirement in his 60's somewhere in the midwest but as his contributions on this page shows too clearly, he's absolutely destructive and ignores all best proven facts, printed in a thousands of serious history books, published on a thousands of web-pages etc. ets...(just get on his talk page to see his obstructions on many other Wiki pages, and mostly against all comprehension and logics!!!)
My suggestion: man has never landed on the moon and the earth is a disk. Easy to ignore 500 years of science and history if you just insist long enough on Wikipedia! Sorry this is not my level...poor world...
As I can see right now all of my references and text has been completely removed by this author once again: all of my well proven and clearly researched historical facts concerning unquestioned history of one of the best reputed italian noble families. His explanation: "generally referenced by self-published/vanity presssources"!!! This is, there is no other explanation in sight, obviously mad... calling references of the leading historical and genaelogical reviews and compendiums (held for example by Library of Congress etc. etc) "self published"!!! Help!!!!!! Please help by your contributions to verify the true facts and protect them against stupid obstruction!!
(please all of you, excuse my unperfect english, I'm unfortunately no native speaker...hope you got the clear purpose of my message even so...thanks a lot!) Heinsteindesign (talk) 17:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heinsteindesign ( talk • contribs)
I, for one, am thoroughly bemused by this manufactured controversy over the use of titles. The grant of noble titles were by legal acts of the legal authorities of states. Such acts were merely a small part of a vast amount of laws and legal acts by these states. Some of these acts have been specifically repealed or amended but a vast amount of past laws, if not repealed or amended, are still valid. The grant of titles of nobility by states unless that grant is specifically repealed are still valid; the fact that some countries have repealed the privileges attached to such titles does not affect the continuity of the title (most states repealed nobiliary privileges but none cancelled past grants of titles). Individuals may be prissy about this and decide, rather discourteously, that they are not going to "recognise" a legal title merely because they object to the concept of hereditary nobility, but such prejudices cannot affect the legal reality and the obligation of Wikipedia, if it hopes to be authoritative, in giving genuine titles where they are genuine and dednying the use of false ones where not. If Wikipedia aspires, as I believe it does, to be an accurate reference source, then it needs to consult with people who actually know something about this instead of relying on ill-informed guess work.
As a simple analogy one might take the title of professor, which is a "title" and which in the US is given very widely but in the UK is customarily restricted to the "chair" of the academic department. Should a British commentator therefore legitimately withhold the title of professor from a US person who is generally considered worthy of the title, because that is not British pactice?
The British royal Court Circular customarily uses royal and noble titles, when genuine, for citizens whose titles are not recognised or used by the state of which the individual is a citizen. To give one example, the birthday of King Constantine of the Hellenes is announced, every year, in the official Coirt circular as "Toay is the birthday of HM King Constantine II of the Hellenes". The Greek government at one time complained about this, but the British Royal Household simply ignored the complaint. Similarly the birthday of "HRH Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia" is announced in a similar fashion. In fact the Crown Prince now lives in the royal palace in Belgrade and is universally referred to as such, even as Alexander II (which would be his regnal title), in the press, and indeed by the government, - this despite the fact that Yugoslavia no longer exists and the monarchy was abolished in 1946 and neither royal nor noble titles are recognised in Yugoslavia or the successor states thereof. Another example would be that of Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna of Russia - everyone knows what happened in Russia in 1917-18, and Russian law does not recognise either noble or royal titles. However, in 1991 the Union of the Russian Nobility was given the building of the former Museum of Marxism-Leninism in St Petersburg and the Grand Duchess is not only officially invited to functions in Russia with her imperial titles (and at the recent enthronement of the Patriarch of Moscow she was given a special place, and seated just across the table from Prime Minister Putin at the official luncheon), but the Order of St Nicholas the Miracle Worker, founded in 1924 in exile by her grandfather, is officially authorised by the Russian state and the Duma, or Council of this Order, is actually situated in the Russian Ministry of Defence.
The Holy See, a sovereign state, accords noble titles to Italian citizens despite their non recognition (but not abolition, by the Republic); for example, the title of Prince is given in the Annuario Pontificio to the hereditary Assistants to the Papal throne, Prince Colonna, Prince of Paliano, and Prince Torlonia, Prince of Fucino, etc. When Marquess Sacchetti was an offcier of the Papal household his title of Marquess was likewise given in the Annuario Pontificio and announcements in the Acta Apostolciae Sedis when the heads of formerly reigning families are granted audiences, use the proper royal titles. Italy, needless to say, does not object to this practice. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta, likewise a sovereign entity in International law, also recognises noble titles and usaes them in its official functions; indeed, when officers of the Order with Italian titles are received or invited to official Italian ceremonies, their Italian noble titles are used because they are recognised by the SMOM and the invitations are accorded to them by virue of their functions in the SMOM.
The bigger problem is the use of false titles; perhaps Wikipedia editors might pay greater attention to this misuse. Guy Stair Sainty
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the guardian, newspaper of impeccable credentials, has referred to the subject as Prince Nicolò in articles dealing with villa aurora, most recently today: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/14/the-princess-and-the-caravaggio-bitter-dispute-rages-over-roman-villa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.36.71 ( talk) 20:05, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
I just happened across this article:
I take no position on the Princely title controversy except to say that much of the (over a decade old now) debate up above doesn't really address the core policy point here which is probably WP:COMMONNAME rather than any technicalities of the law. I do think, though, that it is likely that "Rita Jenrette" isn't the name she goes by these days, and that the name of this article should be changed. I had never heard of her before today, other than maybe hearing of the couple back in the ABSCAM days.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:08, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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I have noticed the discussion on the validity of the title of Prince born by Prince Nicolo Boncompagni-Ludovisi and of that of Prince of Piombino. The view taken here that the use of European titles is somehow improper and that therefore their bearers should be ridiculed, or at best referred to as styled, displays a mistaken and factually incorrect view of history and, indeed, the present day legal treatment of such titles. It seems that the editor of the page on Prince Nicolo’s wife does not accept that her husband should be given the title Prince on the pages of Wikipedia – although he is so referred to on other parts of the English language Wikipedia and also in other language Wiki sites. Such an attitude reflects a personal bias that is inappropriate in a source which purports to be authoritative.
The first point is that these titles were created by lawful authorities with the right to pass to descendants according to various forms. In the case of the title of Prince Boncompagni-Ludovisi, the Holy Roman Empire was a lawful authority, the title was created according to the proper forms and passed to all descendants in the male line (and to females until marriage). There has never been any form of retroactive law to repeal the grant of this or any other Holy Roman Empire title and indeed, since the abolition of the Empire in 1806, no body exists that could effect such abolition. The title of Prince of Piombino was granted as an immediate sovereign fief of the same Empire and continued to be held by the heirs of the first grantee, but as a feudatory along with Elba, of the Crown of Naples, after passing to the Boncompagni-Ludovisi family by inheritance, until Piombino was confiscated by the French in 1799. It was then promised to be returned to the Boncompagni-Ludovisi heirs at the Congress of Vienna but, instead, was ultimately incorporated into Tuscany (Article 100 of the Acts of the Congress of Vienna of 9 June 1815), with the title of Prince of Piombino consistently recognised for the head of the Boncompagni-Ludovisi family by the Powers. This title descends by male primogeniture (as do the other Boncompagni-Ludovisi titles of Prince of Venosa and Duke of Sora and Arce, etc).
These titles have never been abolished; the Italian Republic does not recognise their use but has not attempted to deprive the descendants of the grantees of such titles of their titles, which have never been abolished or suppressed in Italian law – Italian law merely provides that they cannot be used in official documents as they are not recognised; despite, this a junior member of the family who received the grand cross of Merit of the Italian Republic was accorded the use of the title prince in the diploma and on the official web site of the Order of Merit. The Italian Republic does recognise legal predicati, and those of the Princes Boncompagni-Ludovisi, including that of Piombino.
The Holy See, however, continues to recognise titles granted by past Popes and, indeed, these and other titles granted by lawful authority are used at the Papal Court. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta whose sovereign status is recognised by 103 states, including Italy, also recognises legitimately accorded noble titles and uses them in official acts (and members of the Boncompagni-Ludovisio family who are knights of Malta have been accorded the title of Prince on their diploma and in other official acts).
GuyStairSainty ( talk) 10:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC) Guy Sainty, www.chivalricorders.org (guy@nospam.sainty.org) - for the entry on the Boncompagni-Ludovisi family see http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/piombgen.htm
I see a person described as "Hullaballoo Wolfowitz" has questioned my credentials in regard to my comments below on the titles of Prince Nicola Boncompagni-Ludovisi; my web site www.chivalricorders.org is widely cited (including as a source on Wikipedia) and is compiled from a variety of sources - in the case of this particular family, the Almanach de Gotha (the last entry on this family was in the 1943 edition, where on page 390 the birth of Prince Nicolo to Prince Gregorio and his wife is recorded), the Starke Genealogisches Handbuch der Furstlichen Hauser, volume XIV 1991, Ruvigny Titled Nobility of Europe, 1914, the Enciclopedia Storico-Nobiliare Italiana, by Vittorio Spreti Volume II, and the Libro d'Oro della Nobilta Italiana (most recent edition XXIII, volume XXVII, 2005-2009) all of which I have in complete sets in my library. In addition I am a member of the Royal Academy of Heraldry and Genealogy in Madrid, and have published articles on nobility and royalty in numerous scholarly magazines. I have never seen or even heard of any person by the name of Hullaballoo Wolfowitz ever publishing anything on European nobility or royalty and am bemused at this suggestion that such matters as genealogy are matters of opinion, rather than fact.
This article [1], a puff piece, says as much.
It has been widely substantiated that Rita does not possess a Harvard MBA. It would be good to list the ISBN number for her books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by StyleIcons ( talk • contribs) 21:05, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I feel that I am " the coward that edited this page."
Since the editor, User:Princessrbl, claims to be Jenrette herself (see previous link), then she represents a conflict of interest and has taken a decidedly uncivil tone.
Princessrbl, please post your concerns with the article here (and in a civil tone) so that they can be dealt with in an appropriate manner. Your attack against me, or anyone else, does not help. Nor does blanking the page.
As for the admin that protected the page, I'd like to request that you also protect the image of Jenrette. If she is willing to disrupt Wikipedia by page blanking and name calling, it follows that she may try to blank the image page on Commons as well. If you are not an admin on Commons, I'm requesting that you ask an admin there to protect it for us. Thanks, Dismas| (talk) 05:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
While there's a complete lack of high quality sources for Jenrette's second marriage (no doubt because of its marginal notability), I suppose we have to use something. How about this: [2]? And is anyone completely opposed to leaving "prince" in? -- NeilN talk ♦ contribs 00:04, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
I have known Rita for almost two decades. We first met through the theatre and while Rita was appearing on stage in one play, she graciously agreed to do a staged reading of one of mine.
Thereafter, Rita and I became close friends and we shared many experiences--some filled with joy and laughter and others less happy. So what's new?
Rita's notoriety has frequently been the source of pain for her. I have observed that many women, in particular, are prone to saying unkind things about her without any real basis in fact. The fact that Rita is an extraordinarily beautiful woman hasn't made her life any easier in many respects.
Throughout our long friendship, I have found Rita to be honest, generous, and reliable. I am proud to have her as one of my dearest friends.
-- Gordon Osmond ( talk) 13:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not trying to be controversial or libelous, but calling her second pictorial "semi-nude" would be stretching common definition of nudity. Google image searches don't lie. Every contemporary newspaper article I found about the pictorial using Google news search, referred to it as nude.
Calling it simply a "pictorial in Playboy" conveys the message without provoking a controversy. G&E ( talk) 18:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Why for heavens sake does only one of our good old notorious authors (see history of this article) delete at least twice a day all well and 100% referenced historical facts about the noble italian family of Jenrettes husband Prince Nicolo Boncompagni Ludovisi (see chapter "Second marriage") and about her own clearly stated descent from a noble english family (see chapter "Family history"), or her degree obtained at Harvard Business School and finally the awards she won as a stage actress etc? Why has all of this this daily been replaced by historically wrong, slanderous and libelous details or completely deleted as pretended "poorly referenced", whilst instead clearly and 100% proven by a multitude of best and first class references?! If people are not familiar with these evident facts on europeen nobility that can be looked up easily in each library (also in the US, of course) or in the internet (google books etc.), why do they have to be deleted and replaced by libelous and completely wrong pretensions like "the couple styles themselves as Prince and Princess..." or her husbands "claims to be..."? Sorry to insist from a professional point of view as a historian, but they a r e Prince and Princess Boncompagni Ludovisi even though these titles are of no particular political meaning nowadays! Why is it ignored, by deleting the whole chapter over and over again, that noble titles were restituted to all italian nobility after the Congress of Vienna in 1815 (Art. 100), after having taken away from Napoleon only temporarily in 1806? What about reading the books proposed in the annotations instead of replacing right things by completely wrong ones? What about those ten thousands of hits under the name of Boncompagni Ludovisi at google?! Why has the following link been deleted at least 25 times by o n l y that one and only specific Wikipedia author who claims himself to be, let's say God or whatever even if it proves easily and undoubtedly the royal descent of that family and as well of Jenrettes husband: http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/piombgen.htm
This is all slightly disappointing and obviously rather weird...
Or: Why insisting constantly that Prince Boncompagni Ludovisi should be called a "perfume entrepreneur" for it is completely evident, that he just comissioned a fragrance only once in his lifetime on the occasion of his wedding with Rita Jenrette in 2009? Only try to find a second fragrance he presumingly has created! Nothing, sorry....!! All of this is absolutely ignorant and absurd.
I want to have your clear opinion on this subject, hopefully from serious authors not fighting a private battle against a living person or claiming themselves as kinds of Sheriff of the Internet. This has to be stopped right now! That controversial author in question states on his page being in the past that much in conflict with other authors that he therefore once retired from Wikipedia for a long, long, long time to keep, as he writes, his grandchildren instead!! Good gracious... Probably he is a good guy who enjoys his retirement in his 60's somewhere in the midwest but as his contributions on this page shows too clearly, he's absolutely destructive and ignores all best proven facts, printed in a thousands of serious history books, published on a thousands of web-pages etc. ets...(just get on his talk page to see his obstructions on many other Wiki pages, and mostly against all comprehension and logics!!!)
My suggestion: man has never landed on the moon and the earth is a disk. Easy to ignore 500 years of science and history if you just insist long enough on Wikipedia! Sorry this is not my level...poor world...
As I can see right now all of my references and text has been completely removed by this author once again: all of my well proven and clearly researched historical facts concerning unquestioned history of one of the best reputed italian noble families. His explanation: "generally referenced by self-published/vanity presssources"!!! This is, there is no other explanation in sight, obviously mad... calling references of the leading historical and genaelogical reviews and compendiums (held for example by Library of Congress etc. etc) "self published"!!! Help!!!!!! Please help by your contributions to verify the true facts and protect them against stupid obstruction!!
(please all of you, excuse my unperfect english, I'm unfortunately no native speaker...hope you got the clear purpose of my message even so...thanks a lot!) Heinsteindesign (talk) 17:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Heinsteindesign ( talk • contribs)
I, for one, am thoroughly bemused by this manufactured controversy over the use of titles. The grant of noble titles were by legal acts of the legal authorities of states. Such acts were merely a small part of a vast amount of laws and legal acts by these states. Some of these acts have been specifically repealed or amended but a vast amount of past laws, if not repealed or amended, are still valid. The grant of titles of nobility by states unless that grant is specifically repealed are still valid; the fact that some countries have repealed the privileges attached to such titles does not affect the continuity of the title (most states repealed nobiliary privileges but none cancelled past grants of titles). Individuals may be prissy about this and decide, rather discourteously, that they are not going to "recognise" a legal title merely because they object to the concept of hereditary nobility, but such prejudices cannot affect the legal reality and the obligation of Wikipedia, if it hopes to be authoritative, in giving genuine titles where they are genuine and dednying the use of false ones where not. If Wikipedia aspires, as I believe it does, to be an accurate reference source, then it needs to consult with people who actually know something about this instead of relying on ill-informed guess work.
As a simple analogy one might take the title of professor, which is a "title" and which in the US is given very widely but in the UK is customarily restricted to the "chair" of the academic department. Should a British commentator therefore legitimately withhold the title of professor from a US person who is generally considered worthy of the title, because that is not British pactice?
The British royal Court Circular customarily uses royal and noble titles, when genuine, for citizens whose titles are not recognised or used by the state of which the individual is a citizen. To give one example, the birthday of King Constantine of the Hellenes is announced, every year, in the official Coirt circular as "Toay is the birthday of HM King Constantine II of the Hellenes". The Greek government at one time complained about this, but the British Royal Household simply ignored the complaint. Similarly the birthday of "HRH Crown Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia" is announced in a similar fashion. In fact the Crown Prince now lives in the royal palace in Belgrade and is universally referred to as such, even as Alexander II (which would be his regnal title), in the press, and indeed by the government, - this despite the fact that Yugoslavia no longer exists and the monarchy was abolished in 1946 and neither royal nor noble titles are recognised in Yugoslavia or the successor states thereof. Another example would be that of Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna of Russia - everyone knows what happened in Russia in 1917-18, and Russian law does not recognise either noble or royal titles. However, in 1991 the Union of the Russian Nobility was given the building of the former Museum of Marxism-Leninism in St Petersburg and the Grand Duchess is not only officially invited to functions in Russia with her imperial titles (and at the recent enthronement of the Patriarch of Moscow she was given a special place, and seated just across the table from Prime Minister Putin at the official luncheon), but the Order of St Nicholas the Miracle Worker, founded in 1924 in exile by her grandfather, is officially authorised by the Russian state and the Duma, or Council of this Order, is actually situated in the Russian Ministry of Defence.
The Holy See, a sovereign state, accords noble titles to Italian citizens despite their non recognition (but not abolition, by the Republic); for example, the title of Prince is given in the Annuario Pontificio to the hereditary Assistants to the Papal throne, Prince Colonna, Prince of Paliano, and Prince Torlonia, Prince of Fucino, etc. When Marquess Sacchetti was an offcier of the Papal household his title of Marquess was likewise given in the Annuario Pontificio and announcements in the Acta Apostolciae Sedis when the heads of formerly reigning families are granted audiences, use the proper royal titles. Italy, needless to say, does not object to this practice. The Sovereign Military Order of Malta, likewise a sovereign entity in International law, also recognises noble titles and usaes them in its official functions; indeed, when officers of the Order with Italian titles are received or invited to official Italian ceremonies, their Italian noble titles are used because they are recognised by the SMOM and the invitations are accorded to them by virue of their functions in the SMOM.
The bigger problem is the use of false titles; perhaps Wikipedia editors might pay greater attention to this misuse. Guy Stair Sainty
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the guardian, newspaper of impeccable credentials, has referred to the subject as Prince Nicolò in articles dealing with villa aurora, most recently today: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/14/the-princess-and-the-caravaggio-bitter-dispute-rages-over-roman-villa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.48.36.71 ( talk) 20:05, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
I just happened across this article:
I take no position on the Princely title controversy except to say that much of the (over a decade old now) debate up above doesn't really address the core policy point here which is probably WP:COMMONNAME rather than any technicalities of the law. I do think, though, that it is likely that "Rita Jenrette" isn't the name she goes by these days, and that the name of this article should be changed. I had never heard of her before today, other than maybe hearing of the couple back in the ABSCAM days.-- Jimbo Wales ( talk) 14:08, 20 April 2023 (UTC)