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Note. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 02:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I have finished my trim, it took considerable time to remove the links to sites advocating child rape, repeated sources and unreliable sources. Please take more care when suggesting or linking sources - at minimum they should be reliable (which means no blogs and given the amount of scholarly coverage, newspapers should be used judiciously) and absolutely no links to pro-child rape websites either as primary sources or as convenience links to sources. I also removed the chunk of text pasted at the bottom, arguably a copyright violation and possibly irrelevant as it didn't seem to mention Rind et al. If a source is immediately useful, it would be much better to simply edit the main page to include it. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 15:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Sexual violence is one of the most horrific weapons of war, an instrument of terror used against women. Yet huge numbers of men are also victims.
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: Text "Society" ignored (
help); Text "The Observer" ignored (
help) Today, associating a research study with rape and child rape in polite society is a new weapon of psychological warefare, domination, degradation and humiliation. Some of this degradation of the Rind research has already been documented in my wall of words. Publicly associating those innocent scholars with child rape, and whose scholarly work was deleted from my list, may be a form of "degradation ceremony." Source: Garfinkel J. (1956) ("Conditions of successful degradation ceremonies" American Journal of Sociology Volume 61, pp. 420-424) A degradation ceremony is assigning stigma to these journal authors for supporting the research of Rind et al.(1998), so no Wikipedia editor will want to see what these authors' wrote. A scientist or researcher who is publicly associated with child rape (as done above), is stigmatized, and by definition, a researcher or writer with a stigma is not quite human. They have been de-graded, and they are fundamentally flawed as human beings. They now have "a spoiled identity." This is all relevant to the experience of the Rind controversy.I've been relatively polite up until now. That ceases with the ANI posting. There is no fucking way that it will ever, ever be appropriate to link to sites advocating for child rape. For you to suggest, and keep linking to, and keep arguing for the inclusion of these sites is unacceptable. It doesn't matter how many people you want to step in - it's child rape, and if you don't see the problem with linking to those sites, you need to get off of this one. You're fucking right I'm not willing to wait for a third opinion, any sort of advocacy for child rape is wrong, and wikipedia is sullied by association if any of those child rape advocacy sites are ever included on our pages - including talk pages. If you want to link your IP address to sites advocating child rape and do the work of mining them for sources that could be included on the page, fine - post those sources. But there is ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING REASON for the actual sites to be linked. They will never be reliable, they are not a fringe theory that deserves minority coverage, they are advocating for something illegal, immoral and unethical that the wikipedia community has consistently said is unacceptable. They are not even convenient links as there is no guarantee the content has not been edited to present a bias.
I shouldn't have to make points based on policies and guidelines - wikipedia is a mainstream site and pedophilia is just about the most heinous crime found within the Western world. It is beyond common sense that continuing to link to these sites is worse than inappropriate. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 02:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
What was this and this then? You have three experienced editors saying you should stop linking to these sites. Leadership council is still on this page, but is also not a reliable source. Drop it. How many times do I have to say it, links to sites that advocate child rape are unacceptable, will never be acceptable, and are never going to be valid convenience links. Ever. Sources do not need to be convenient, they must merely exist and be reliable. If readers have to visit a library instead of a webpage advocating for the rape of children, all except the child rapists will thank us. Fucking drop it. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 11:22, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
This exceeds TLDR and is not compatible with WP:TPG. See my comment below. Johnuniq ( talk) 01:43, 10 January 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Radvo: If you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement. This applies to talk and article pages. See Wikipedia:Copyright#Linking_to_copyrighted_works.
Wikipedia's approach to health-related topics is very conservative. The kinds of sources required to support health-related claims in this article include only, to all intents and purposes, scholarly reviews published in respected peer-reviewed journals. See WP:MEDRS.
Editing Wikipedia articles requires politeness, assumption of good faith on behalf of other editors, and a firm grasp of our editing policies (you must understand the policies you've been pointed to on this talk page, and quite a few others that will be pointed out to you as you transgress them). Particularly on controversial articles like this, the only practical way for a new editor to make significant change is to put the exact words of a proposed edit, alongside any existing text it may be replacing, and citing the WP:MEDRS-compliant source that says precisely what your edit says, but in different words and structure, on this talk page for others to consider. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 13:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC) Updated 04:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Johnuniq wrote to Radov: "If there is ... an actionable suggestion for an improvement to this article, please post it in a new section." He then closed my edit and closed his comment from view. This message appears if you open my edit with the button on the right side:
"The following discussion has been closed."
Correction: It was hardly open for anyone to see! I want my post opened up for discussion here. If frank discussion is refused here, alternatively, everything (the harassment, the libel,the vulgarity, and repeated insult, the tampering with my posted photo of McMartin, the archiving of my 10 day old edit to Archive2, the redacting of all my edits, etc.) will pulled together and presented at WP:WQA. It will take a couple of days to pull the detail of my mistreatment together, but this may be my best option to establish a better working climate here with all editors for the longer run. I will learn something for myself, too.
Anthonyhcole suggested an alternative way to go forward. Anthonyhcole wrote:
This suggests how we might work together on this article in the future. See the full text of Anthonyhcole's edit above. I support this. What do other active editors here think about this recommendation? Do Herostratus, Truthinwriting, Legitimus, Johnuniq and other currently active editors, agree to this "Cole recommendation"? Or does anyone have any modification to the Cole recommendation to suggest? Correct me if I'm wrong, I am under the impression that we already discussed, and tentatively agreed, in the past month, that there are different parts of this Rind et al. article. One part summarizes the Rind study, so the reader receives a good summary of what the study reported. The other part of our article relates, in a NPOV, the controversy. Especially for the part of the article that reports the summary of the Rind meta-analysis, and the WP:Lead, do we agree to give up using WP:BEBOLD and work as Anthonyhcole suggests? IMHO, WP:BEBOLD is not appropriate for such a sensitive, controversial, and difficult-to-grasp mathematical study. See also WP:TECHNICAL and fringe results; outside the mainstream of common sense, as, IMHO, the ideas in these articles may also help editors.
Those who have read and understand meta-analysis (see WP:TECHNICAL), are in a position to write good numbers to summarize it for the Wikipedia reader. Encyclopedia articles should not " tell lies to children" in the sense of giving editors an easy path to the feeling that they understand something, at the price that what they then understand is wrong." IMHO, some of what editors believe is true about the Rind study is false. One has to read the study, and even then, without the background in meta-analysis and research methods, it is hard to understand.
Anthonyhcole suggests, "you must understand the policies you've been pointed to on this talk page..." That does not only apply to me. Editors don't have to agree about a topic to collaborate on a great article. It takes mutual respect and a willingness to abide by referenced sources and site policy. No editor, no matter how experienced, or how much he feels he owns this topic, sets policy without consensus or reference to written Wikipedia references. Sustained discussion shows that I am trying to identify the problems, clarify my thoughts and situation here, and find solutions. For a much longer version of this edit, see the version that Johnuniq hid from view without my permission or consent WP:TALK, And Johnuniq closed the discussion of my longer post without adequate justification. I protest the lack of consensus, but am willing to move on, if we now get back to editing work.
Aside 1:I will not to knowingly post any URL's or scholarly articles that violate copyright laws, even in a secondary way. Avoiding copyright violation is Wikipedia policy, and the right thing to do! This has nothing to do with false accusations of advocacy of child rape, The Leadership Council is apparently guilty of the same copyright violations as Everything you wanted to know about The Rind Controversy, (that is, the Rind part of mhamic.org,) so it cannot be linked for journal article listings from the Leadership Council either.
Aside2: Johnuniq suggests that "reports about editor behavior are started at WP:WQA" As started above, I am the victim of impolite, uncivil and other difficult communications and I seek redress. We can settle this here, or we can settle this at [WP:WQA]. I resent some of the language and insult that has been directed towards me. I feel bullied out of posting real work on the main page here. Herostratus, WLU, and one IP address will be named in my complaint. I will take my time to throughly document my case from various locations on Wikipedia. I will post it at WP:WQA.
This may be a lengthly process because I am collecting so much detail. I may postpone or change my mind, if things shape up here, preferring instead to edit, with dignity and respect, the main article than go through a lengthly process. Let's see how things go here in the next few days.... Radvo ( talk)
Hello, Rind et al. controversy. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
"Stephanie Dallam and Anne Salter have pointed out that Rind and Bauserman have had associations with age of consent reform organizations." Isn't this an invalid guilt-by-association argument? I can't remeber, but i think Rind responded to this in some way. 85.183.82.188 ( talk) 23:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I know. Hence i was asking if somebody remembers Rinds reply to it, because i think he did. 85.183.82.188 ( talk) 16:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Click here to see the names of a number of State legislatures that condemned, or considered condemning, the Rind et al. (1998) study in the Spring of 1999.. This matter has not been well researched here, and needs a volunteer to email the advocates for this effort and find the exact texts of those State resolutions on line. The sample of additional states includes possibly Delaware, Illinois, New Jersey, Oregon, and Pennsylvania.
The media debate climaxed in the unprecedented condemnation of a research paper by government legislatures in the Spring and Summer of 1999. There was much overlap in the texts of the condemnations of the various legislatures, as if they all came from the same source. The State of Alaska was first on May 11, 1999 with (CSHJR 36). [1] Alaska Bill No 36 state of Alaska
A similar resolution passed the Oklahoma state senate on the 27th day of May, 1999 [2]
Oklahoma expressed concern that
The Rind et al. (1998) paper was condemned by the federal government, starting with the United States House of Representatives (HCR 107) on July 12, 1999, The vote in favor of the resolution in the House was 355-0, with 13 Members voting "present". [3] does not verify text - WLU The vote in the U.S. House of Representatives was followed two weeks later by a voice voice in the United States Senate. Bill 106 Bill 106 [4] It passed the Senate concurrently on July 30th, 1999 U.S. House of Representatives & Senate concurrent resolution. The Federal government condemnation included this language about harm, and using the Rind report in the criminal law:
California. Resolution, SJR 17, condemning Rind et al. (1998) passed the California Senate on September 3, 1999, by a vote of 40-0. Emphasizing the possible use of the Rind et al. study in the local courts, California's resolution includes a non-binding request that defense attorneys and courts disregard the controversial Rind report. (These ideas may have come from the attorney hired by the advocacy group called The Leadership Council, [Stephanie Dallam, Dr. Fink, et al.] which [with the Family Council?], may have been coaching the legislatures. Details of this coaching of legislatures appears in one of the books in the Sources list.
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help)Radvo ( talk) 05:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Why has all the above been posted here? Material in an article should be based on secondary sources. If there is a suggestion that the article contain extracts from legislation, the situation is no way—articles do not contain items cherry picked by editors to show some point of view. Please do not use reference notation on talk pages: just show a link or a title if required. Johnuniq ( talk) 06:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Radvo, what's your reason for changing "NAMBLA" to "NAMbLA" in the article? Herostratus ( talk) 06:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
I integrated the content of two sections that were sourced by Carol Tavris's article in Society. I made a complex edit, and put that edit into the first paragraph of the Controversies section.
WLU reverted it because of too much analysis and too much verbiage.
I moved a photo, and was beginning to edit to make things more concise as requested. Before I could even begin to post by work to reduce the verbiage, I was reverted a second time. Dontbite I will file a complaint if this continues.
Johnuniq objected to wording in the second sentence. I immediately removed the entire sentence. I was following BRD.
I then made a number of edits to remove analysis and verbage to meet WLU's objection.
I would like to discuss the paragraph, as it now exits after my series of edits to make this more concise. How can we work to improve this paragraph?
Please discuss the issues you have with the edit here on this talk page and work things out. Please be specific. I will consider and negotiate future changes. Please do not revert this again until you discuss. I prefer to make the discussed changes myself. If you don't like what I have done the next time, we can continue the discussion here.
I am using WLU's preferred mode of working. He refuses Anthonhcole's suggestion that we discuss things first, as I would prefer. I believe we should all follow the same rules. See my previous attempts to get some discussion going about how editors work on this topic.
I am using what I understand to be BRD..
Radvo ( talk) 05:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Could we agree here that before an editor reverts another editor's work, the editor who plans to revert should open a new section and explain the revert in detail BEFORE the revert is made. Then if an editor gets reverted, he/she can go immediately to the talk page and find out the problem. After I was twice reverted today, I looked on the TALK page,and saw no detail for the reason for the reverts, so I assumed I was being reverted for the reasons in the edit summaries, and that was all the feedback I was going to get. So, I used the information in the edit summary to make the requested changes. And I was reverted a second time as I was making the changes. I had get back to my work to make the changes requested. That is why I twice reverted to get back to my work to make it more concise, and to removed the sentence that was objected to. What do editors here think of this proposal? Radvo ( talk) 06:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
WLU: We are reporting the Rind results. You removed from the article something about willing and consensual. There are two separate phenomena: (1) harm and (2) willingness. Rind found them to be statistically correlated. Maybe you would use words like: they are "inherently related" to each other. Rind is impossible to understand if you insist that CSA (as variably defined) is not consensual by definition. Some things you already are convinced of causes a lot of cognitive dissonance for you. The problem may be, in part, with the definition of willing, consensual, CSA, but let's just accept the Rind results as they are. The critique comes later. A made-up example: a 21 year old has a sexual relationship with a 15 year old. The 15 year old experiences the sex as consensual, willing, harmless. There are no measures showing the 15 year old is harmed, traumatized. When the 15 year old gets to college, the individual completes a questionnaire and reports things as experienced. The experience was, in some places, not "consensual" by law; it was immoral by many accepted and respected standards. But it may very well have been willing if the person reports it that way on a questionnaire. The researcher, nevertheless, says, because of the ages involved, this is CSA. The researcher and Rind think of a case like this as consensual CSA. You resist that idea very stongly, but if you want to understand Rind, you cannot reject what he reports because of some definition you have. Rind gets the data of that experience with the study from the professional literature, and puts that study in his "mixed" category; these studies have samples that included both consenting and non-consenting subjects. You are fighting the source if you don't accept these mixed samples (of consensual and non-consensual CSA). Accept the Source, as is. Critique later. You wrote above:
"while Rind et al. did suggest not all abuse is harmful, it is still not consensual by definition ... - care must be taken not to word the article in such a way that the abuse as portrayed as innocuous or harmless".
That's non-sense! You don't know or understand the study. I don't know how to tell you this without your getting upset: In Rind's study, some CSA, as it is sometimes and variably defined by the authors of the 59 studies, is harmless, not harmful. In the example I gave above, you can imagine that some college student, included in some CSA study, was at one time the 15 year old, (These were self reports by college students.) Your prior definitions are irrelevant to reporting what the Source (and the authors of the 59 studies) report. The definition of CSA is not up to you. The variable definition of CSA was up to the researchers who completed the 59 studies. (This poor construct of CSA gets discussed as a problem later.) This goes farther: Rind suggested that one reason CSA is not harmful has to do with "willingness". If you refuse to permit that a relationship between a 21 year old and a 15 year old might be perceived by both participants as willing and harmless, you cannot understand and accept what Rind reports. If simply accepting and understanding what Rind wrote is a problem for you, maybe you should be editing another topic. Rind has to go with the data from the 15,000 subjects. You resist and interfere with what the source reports. It would also be easier if you stopped trying to critique the results and the CSA construct. Save that for later after you understand what Rind did. Can you understand and accept this? Rind wrote:
"These finding indicated that inclusion of willingness eliminated the relationship [between CSA and malajustment] in the mixed category (that is, studies by other researchers that included consenting and non-consenting subjects), implying that willingness itself was not [statistically] associated with psychological maladjustment in the case of males." Source: http://books.google.ca/books?lr=&id=NqT0GCxUDJsC&q=willingness#v=snippet&q=willingness&f=false Advances in social & organizational psychology: a tribute to Ralph Rosnow By Donald A. Hantula January 4, 2006 Routledge Taylor and Francis Group ISBN 10 0805855904 page 172. Radvo (talk) 9:22 pm, Today (UTC−5) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radvo ( talk • contribs) 02:30, 13 January 2012 (UTC) Radvo ( talk) 02:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC) Fine, but WLU is an experienced editor who knows that personal opinions are not adequate for writing an article at Wikipedia (and there is no need to worry about causing upset—that only occurs when somone repeatedly posts long passages that are not focused on what can be done to improve the article). What text in the article has a problem? What source provides what information that shows there is a problem? Johnuniq ( talk) 03:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Rind et al. did respond to the U.S. Congress. In fact, some of this response should be used to balance the Congressional condemnation in the article. Here is the Rind et al. response:
Claiming among other things that "all credible studies in this area ... condemn child sexual abuse as criminal and harmful to children," and citing a 1982 Supreme Court opinion that expressed this view, House Congressional Resolution 107 proclaimed our study to be "severely flawed." It condemned and denounced "all suggestions in the article ... that indicate that sexual relationships between adults and 'willing' children are less harmful than believed and might be positive for 'willing' children."
[snip]
This [Congressional] resolution was built on the criticisms made by NARTH, " Dr. Laura," the Family Research Council, and The Leadership Council. Its specific comments and wording were heavily drawn from the Alaska resolution, which was itself based on some of these criticisms. Given that we have just shown these criticisms to be without merit [see citation below], the characterization of our study as "severely flawed" must be seen as invalid.
It is not the case that all credible studies have concluded harm, as our review amply demonstrated, unless concluding harm is viewed as a prerequisite to judging a study "credible."
The 1982 Supreme Court opinion was made when CSA research was relatively scant and unsophisticated; in our review, almost all the studies (57 of 59) were published after 1982.
Willingness is in fact relevant to outcome. We neither stated nor implied that CSA might be positive for willing children, as "positive" in this context connotes beneficial. Instead, we accurately summarized what the students themselves reported in terms of perceived reactions and effects, some of which were positive.
Finally, using the best methodology involves being strongly grounded in methodological logic (specifically regarding issues of generalizability and causality) and statistical precision, qualities that characterized our review above most others.
[End]
Source of the above: Rind, B; Tromovitch P; Bauserman R (2000). "Condemnation of a scientific article: A chronology and refutation of the attacks and a discussion of threats to the integrity of science". Sexuality and Culture 4 (2): 1–62. doi:10.1007/s12119-000-1025-5 page 42-3. This article provides a great deal of detail and is highly recommended to other editors here. -- Radvo ( talk) 05:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Here is another quote that is Rind's response to Congress:
The fact that the U.S. government condemned our review indicates nothing negative about the review's merits, although our critics have often advanced this specious argument. The history of science and philosophy is filled with important and even great works that have conflicted with prevailing opinion and have then been condemned, banned, or burned following campaigns by moral crusaders and power holders. If anything, such treatment speaks to a work's genuine merit, rather than to its invalidity. Source: Rosnow R. L; Hantala,D.A. Advances in social and organizational Psychology: a Tribute to Ralph L. Rosnow Page 190.
The second post to this TALK page, more that 3 years ago, asked for an explanation of the study. Too much controversy and negativity was a problem here from the very start. This negativity chases new editors away. Bite
That old post reads:
Lots of progress has been made in three years, but I am not satisfied with the removal of most of Truthinwriting's 'Findings in brief' section by an editor who probably has not read the study, refuses to read it, and is not qualified to write a short summary of the findings or results. He doesn't know that he doesn't know the material and he doesn't know that I know he doesn't know the material. Telling how many participants were included in the study and how many studies were meta-analyzed is good, but we had to discuss that at great length to even get that in the article. What about the Rind results? There is little about the results in the current page.
Truthinwriting has read the study, and even understands it. I alerted Dr. Rind to this "Findings in Brief' summary, he read it, and said it was a good summary of the results of the 32 page jargon laden study. What is the problem with including it here? The 'Finding in brief' section was removed without Truthinwriting's consent or mine. We are lectured about consensus, and then Herostratus and WLU work without consensus, or even asking for consensus.
How about an appendix summarizing the entire study, not just the study itself.
Or start an entirely new topic starting with the Findings in brief section and a very professional tone. And then dealing only with the methodological and statistical problems on that page. Why should editors who have read and understood the study have to educate editors about the very basics of the study because the inexperienced editors refusal to do their homework? We can't do their homework for others. If the Pedophile Article Watch sends someone over to oversee things, we editors of the new page will demand from the appropriate Adminstration authority that the PAW representative must have read and understood the 1997 and 1998 papers. Otherwise that PAW representative is unwelcome to edit content of the paper and certainly not redact what editors who read the study may write. The new page would avoid discussing the controversy outside the scholarly circles. (The current article could deal more thoroughly with The Family Research Council, The Leadership Council, Radio Talk show hosts Dr. Laura and Dom Giordano, the state and Congressional condemnation, the lobbying, the fear of malpractice suites, etc.
Should we split this article in two and start a new page with just the Rindings in Brief section, and only editors who have read and understood the study may participate and edit. Others will be redacted unless they make unusually talented posts based on good secondary sources. Maybe in a year or two, the two articles might be merged together again.
The "controversy part" can stay here, and editors here need to read only the dozens of secondary sources, not the original Rind material? They can continue with The Leadership Council's fetish of linking the Rind article with advocacy organizations,, etc. as they have for years. The professionals I am looking to work with may not want to sully their professional experience and credentials with this biased crap, and the BRDDDDD.. I would rather work with peers and professionals above my pay grade, psychologists, sexologists, and statisticians who can handle the complexity and the significance of this powerful material.
BRD is not appropriate for people who have not read the study. There is just too much to explain. The Anthonyhcole method is superior, but we have no consensun on using it.
I would especially like to read Truthinwriting's response to this, if he is still watching these ideas. Radvo ( talk) 21:04, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I need to ask something important at this juncture. Do you have any personal association with Bruce Rind, Philip Tromovitch, or Robert Bauserman? Are you one of those three, or were you ever a colleague of any of them? Did you have anything to do with the work of these three related to this paper? The reason I ask is not a condemnation, but rather a matter of policy on conflicts of interest. You would not be blocked or punished in any way if you are, nor barred from editing this article, but rather it simply creates the necessity for proper disclosure and consideration for due weight. I highly recommend you read this specific section of the COI policy as it reads almost exactly like our interactions with you thus far on this article. And for pete's sake, try to keep your reply under 1000 characters. Legitimus ( talk) 22:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Sadly, Radvo seem to have read the actual study and thus almost anything he contributes here will be based on that, rather than popular opinion which is what Wikipedia should represent. Juice Leskinen ( talk) 23:17, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
I would encourage anyone connected with Radvo to explain that posting long screeds is unhelpful—really unhelpful, as it makes it too difficult to see any substantive point. Yes, this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, but there are many hundreds of contentious topics here which all go through the phase evident recently in this article: new editors arrive to right great wrongs but they seldom take the time to listen to experienced editors, and eventually find themselves blocked as being unable to collaborate. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Yeah I don't believe Radvo for a second he's not Dr. Rind. He posts the same way he lectures when I had his class at Temple back in '07 or '08, with the rambling topics and lack of structure. I used to fall asleep in that class. Plus, Radvo talks to Dr. Rind on the phone and has his personal e-mail? That's mighty convenient. And his obvious fervor for painting Rind and this paper as "brilliant"... given Rind's entire publication history for the past 15 years has been nothing but responses and counter-claim pieces on this paper, with a few on restaurant tipping for flavor. I mean who do you think you're fooling? Not that there's anything wrong with it if you are Dr. Rind. The COI policy isn't like the pedo policy; you can still edit. But the other users deserve to know who they are dealing with when someone so vehemently tries to defend this factually accurate but sociologically moronic paper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.231.63.96 ( talk) 21:12, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
The Controversy Section contains this clause:
Dr. Rind, Dr. Tromovitch, and Dr. Bauserman are not public figures and are relatively unknown. This statement is an insult, inflammatory and offensive, and repeating this in the Wikipedia article prejudices the reader from judging the Rind Report on its scientific merit.
Dr. Rind asks the editors here to please delete this repetition of Dr. Laura's libelous statement.
If this cannot be settled with the editors directly, the discussion here, and this appeal, will be taken to the BLP noticeboard. -- Radvo ( talk) 23:20, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
WLU made one sentence, at the end of the Lead, describing the Ulrich et al. (2005) replication of Rind et al. (1998), invisible to the reader. But that sentence still can be seen when in edit mode. Here is WLU's edit. WLU's edit summary was: "SRMHP not pubmed indexed, which calls for considerable caution."
WLU: Can you point to a WP: policy that states we cannot use, in the Lead, as a reliable secondary source, a scholarly journal that is not "pubmed indexed"? I looked but could not find any Wikipedia guidance on that. I would like to see that policy myself. Do you, or any other editor here, have the WP:URL? If there is no adequate response here, I will seek a neutral third opinion outside this TALK section.
The hidden sentence reads:
Some of our previous TALK about SRMHP pasted here:
WLU: This is speculation: SRMHP's editor, Dr. Scott O. Lilienfild, may be widely regarded as a fiercely independent whistle blower, and may have alienated the medical and psychological community with "his" muckraking Journal that aggressively exposes unsupported claims in the medical and social science disciplines. "The establishment", in turn, may refuse his journal a listing on Pubmed. That might be a way for "the establishment" to retaliate against him because of his aggressive whistle-blowing approach to pseudoscience. Or Dr. Lilienfeld may just fiercely guard his independence, and refuses to submit to some Pubmed requirement for listing. He quit the APA when, at first, the organization refused to publish his embarrassing [to the APA] article: Lilienfeld, S O (2002). "When Worlds Collide: Social Science, Politics and the Rind et al. (1998) Child Abuse Meta-Analysis" (PDF). The American Psychologist 57 (3): 177–187. PMID 11905116. Archived from the original on 2003–04–29.
(BTW, Rind et al. controversy quotes this Lilienfeld article 7 times; so there is no "considerable caution" about using him as a source when he writes for the American Psychologist, just "considerable caution" about the journal he edits.) Should I e-mail Dr. Lilienfeld and ask him why his journal is not pubmed listed? On the other hand, I cannot imagine an answer from Dr. Lilienfield that would make your "considerable caution" about SRMHP any less.
I have noticed that, to avoid the controversy, a group of on-line psychiatrists referenced Ulrich et al. (2005-6) with the full citation and abstract—instead of citing the controversial Rind et al. (1998). Take a look at this psychiatrist's post to an Internet help forum. Here's the link. He/she mentions Rind et al. (1998), but does not give its citation or its abstract. This psychiatrist points out to his client that the Rind study was replicated (without giving a citation to the original) and then gives the full citation and link to the abstract for the Ulrich replication. This psychiatrist argues that the successful replication of Rind et al. (1998) is a strong argument for the validity of the results of the later. This on-line psychiatrist gives me the impression that he/she thinks the non-controversial replication is even more important than the original because it is not tainted with the controversy and Congressional condemnation.
Here's the link again. Please read the text to the bottom; I want all editors here to see that this independent psychiatrist has a very different "attitude" toward Rind et al. (1998) and Heather et al. (2005-6) than the editors here who are sympathetic to the unwarranted aggression I associate with editors, like Herostratus, associated with the Pedophile Article Watch PAW. I would love to have this psychiatrist join Wikipedia and bring his sympathetic attitude here, to counterbalance the disrespectful PAW attitudes, but I will NOT invite him to edit here, as that would be WP:MEAT.
In case the link I gave twice above does not work, here is the relevant part:
[Start quote from Psychforums.com: "Ask a Psychiatrist"]
[End quote]
In the interest of full disclosure: I am not the psychiatrist who wrote that response on line. No COI.
I ask the editors here to comment on my desire to make again visible, in the Lead, the one sentence about Ulrich's replication (This sentence is also pasted into the first indented paragraph above). -- Radvo ( talk) 18:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
It's very simple: The article more than meets Wikipedias criteria for inclusion. A much lower standard is in place here, you could pretty much use a newspaper article as a source here. That being said, if there is anything in the actual study that is dubious then it could be well worth discussing and might in the end lead us to remove it from the article. Until then, it remains a valid source. Juice Leskinen ( talk) 20:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
That is, go ahead and make your edit unless some spectacular counter-argument comes up in the near future. Juice Leskinen ( talk) 20:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
July 1998 - the paper by Bruce Rind, Philip Tromovitch and Robert Bauserman was published in Psychological Bulletin.
December 1998 - the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) criticized the study for its methodology and conclusions. Criticism of it began to appear on the internet.
March, 1999 - it was then attacked by The Wanderer, a Catholic religious newspaper, talk show host Dom Giordano, and Dr. Laura Schlessinger. In response, the APA declared in a press statement that "the sexual abuse of children is wrong and harmful to its victims" and that "the findings of a research project within an APA journal is in no way an endorsement."
In an internal APA email refFowler, R. (1999). "RE: APA statements". Child Maltreatment Researchers (Mailing List), Retrieved from http://www.ndacan.cornell.edu/cmrlpostings/msg01569.html/ref the President of the APA, Raymond Fowler, wrote
Many critics have demanded that APA repudiate the study. Because the article has attracted so much attention, we have carefully reviewed the process by which it was approved for publication and the soundness of the methodology and analysis. This study passed the journal's rigorous peer review process and has, since the controversy, been reviewed again by an expert in statistical analysis who affirmed that it meets current standards and that the methodology, which is widely used by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) to develop guidelines, is sound.
June 9, 1999 - the president of the APA, Raymond Fowler, announced in an open letter to Representative Tom DeLay that there was to be an independent review of the controversial paper.
July 12, 1999] - the United States House of Representatives unanimously passed a resolution declaring that "sexual relations between children and adults are abusive, exploitive, and reprehensible, and should never be considered or labeled as harmless or acceptable." It condemned the study specifically on the grounds that "pedophiles and organizations, such as the North American Man-Boy Love Association, that advocate laws to permit sex between adults and children are exploiting the study to promote and justify child sexual abuse." [1] The resolution was passed unanimously in the Senate.
September 15, 1999 - the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), whom APA under political pressure had asked for an independent review of the article, did refuse to review the article again in order to respond to its political rejection saying that: We see no reason to second guess the process of peer review used by the APA journal in its decision to publish the article in question. While not without its imperfections, peer review is well established as a standard mechanism for maintaining the flow of scientific information that scientists can refer to, critique or build on. After examining all the materials available to the committee, we saw no clear evidence of improper application of methodology or other questionable practices on the part of the article's authors.
The Committee also wishes to express its grave concerns with the politicization of the debate over the article's methods and findings. In reviewing the set of background materials available to us, we found it deeply disconcerting that so many of the comments made by those in the political arena and in the media indicate a lack of understanding of the analysis presented by the authors or misrepresented the article's findings. All citizens, especially those in a position of public trust, have a responsibility to be accurate about the evidence that informs their public statements. We see little indication of that from the most vocal on this matter, behaviour that the Committee finds very distressing.
The AAAS's Committee of Scientific Freedom and Responsibility reported that they "saw no clear evidence of improper application of methodology or other questionable practices on the part of the article's authors." However, AAAS also added that "if there were such problems, uncovering them would be the task of those reviewing it prior to publication or to readers of the published article" and attached the following disclaimer: "The fact that the Committee has chosen not to proceed with an evaluation of the article in the Psychological Bulletin should not be seen either as endorsement or criticism of it." (p. 3)
March 2002 - The fact that politics has intervened in the field of science has raised many from researchers concerned about its implications for the independence of the scientific peer-reviewing process. Some, including two Psychological Bulletin editors, call Raymond Fowler's June 9 letter a capitulation to political pressure. The affair was also later discussed in issue of another APA journal, American Psychologist.-- Radvo ( talk) 04:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Is the a new section you want to add or what are we supposed to do here? -- Juice Leskinen ( talk) 18:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Rind et al. mentions consent and this is quite a controversial issue that has been completely erased from the current article. Few people seem to understand what they actually claimed and get all riled up over their overactive imaginations. Is it possible to explain it so people understand and including it in the article, or does peoples brains just shut-off when the topic is brought before their eyes?
(feel free to read the original article if you have no idea what I'm talking about)— Juice Leskinen ( talk) 21:33, 24 January 2012 (UTC) Indeed many facets of this work seem to get hung up on both terminology and unfortunate implications. What specifically did you have in mind? I am reading the original text and I am not clear how consent is defined according to the paper. Legitimus ( talk) 21:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
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Controversies cloud APA convention - Premier psychological body's reports on child abuse still draw criticism Duin, Julia. "Controversies cloud APA convention - Premier psychological body's reports on child abuse still draw criticism." The Washington Times 12 Aug. 1999, 2, A CULTURE, ET CETERA: A2. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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Controversies cloud APA convention - Premier psychological body's reports on child abuse still draw criticism Duin, Julia. "Controversies cloud APA convention - Premier psychological body's reports on child abuse still draw criticism." The Washington Times 12 Aug. 1999, 2, A CULTURE, ET CETERA: A2. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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MENTAL HEALTH STUDIES RILE CONSERVATIVES SCRIPPS HOWARD, JOAN LOWY. "MENTAL HEALTH STUDIES RILE CONSERVATIVES." Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH) 21 Aug. 1999, FINAL / ALL, RELIGION: 3F. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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Group drops plans for review of child sex-abuse study BURLING, STACEY. "Group drops plans for review of child sex-abuse study." Milwaukee Journal Sentinel 21 Nov. 1999, Early, A News: 14. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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UMKC scholar's views on pedophilia rile many FRANEY, LYNN. "UMKC scholar's views on pedophilia rile many." Kansas City Star, The (MO) 1 Apr. 2002, METROPOLITAN, METRO: B1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Professor's views on pedophilia draw fire - UMKC faculty member's writings suggest not all sex with children is 'evil. ' [Last Name], [First Name]. "Professor's views on pedophilia draw fire - UMKC faculty member's writings suggest not all sex with children is 'evil. '." Columbia Daily Tribune (MO) 1 Apr. 2002,: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005 Abrams, Dan. "THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005." MSNBC 15 Dec. 2005, News, International: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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A Question of Resilience Times, New York. "A Question of Resilience." Ocala Star-Banner (FL) 30 Apr. 2006,: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
AROUND TOWN [Last Name], [First Name]. "AROUND TOWN." Sun, The: Lisle (IL) 9 Jun. 2006, AROUND TOWN: 9. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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DESPITE STIR, SEX-ABUSE STUDY WON'T BE REVIEWED SOME SAW THE WORK AS PRO-PEDOPHILIA. A GROUP ASKED TO REVIEW IT SAID IT COULD FIND NO REASON TO. Burling, Stacey. "DESPITE STIR, SEX-ABUSE STUDY WON'T BE REVIEWED SOME SAW THE WORK AS PRO-PEDOPHILIA. A GROUP ASKED TO REVIEW IT SAID IT COULD FIND NO REASON TO.." Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) 17 Nov. 1999, SF, NATIONAL: A20. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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Sexual-abuse study disgusts concerned dad Schlessinger, Dr. Laura. "Sexual-abuse study disgusts concerned dad." The Dallas Morning News 15 Apr. 1999, THIRD, TODAY: 8C. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Apparition of Lolita nation? Saunders, Debra. "Apparition of Lolita nation?." The Washington Times 28 Mar. 1999, 2, B COMMENTARY: B4. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Lolita Nation SAUNDERS, DEBRA J.. "Lolita Nation." THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE 28 Mar. 1999, SUNDAY, EDITORIAL: 7. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Critics assail study affirming pedophilia - Reaction flares on Internet, talk radio Duin, Julia. "Critics assail study affirming pedophilia - Reaction flares on Internet, talk radio." The Washington Times 23 Mar. 1999, 2, A: A1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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-- Radvo ( talk) 16:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
A symposium, entitled De Andere Kant van de Medaille. Over de Vraag: Is Pedofilie Misbruik van Kinderen? (The Other Side of the Coin. About the Question: Is Pedophilia Child Abuse?) was held in Rotterdam on December 18, 1998: an academic paper, written by Bruce Rind, Robert Bauserman, and Philip Tromovitch, was read in English at this conference; the paper reported on the two meta-analyses and was titled An Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Based on Nonclinical Samples
The Pauluskerk (St. Paul's Church) is a parish of the Netherlands Reformed Church, located in Rotterdam. For twenty years, the Church, in association with the interdenominational Foundation for Church Social Work, and its pastor the Rev. Hans Visser] advocated for, and spiritually ministered to, drug addicts, the homeless, refugees, illegal aliens, transvestites, transsexuals, and adults attracted to minors. A biography was written about Rev. Visser and his charitable work with these outcasts, and he has himself written at least 19 books, of which 10 have world catolog numbers. The Pastor states in his church's brochure that, just as the church does not advocate drug use, but attempts "to eliminate a burden on drug users, " the church does not advocate sexual acts between adults and minors, and certainly not sexual abuse, but "seeks to nuance the present hysterical persecution of pedophiles as a sexual minority, and begin a dialogue with both them and society about what is truly abusive behavior, and how pedophile sexuality can be exercised responsibly and ethically." (Reference source: Misunderstood Intimacy: A Pastoral Approach to Pedophilia, Rotterdam: Stichting voor Kerkelijk Sociale Arbeid, 1999, p. 4).
Stephanie Dallam (2002) (Pg 129) reported that the Rev. Hans Visser edited a book with the same name as the conference, and the author devoted a section of the book to describing the results of Rind et al.'s (1998) research. For roughly 15 years, from the late 1980's until about 2004 (needs research to confirm dates), the legal age of consent in the Netherlands was 12 years of age. -- Radvo ( talk) 21:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)— Radvo ( talk) 03:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"In the behavioral sciences, modern works may make passing reference to the study, but largely ignore its more controversial conclusions. [33] "
This reference seems to lead to a book, usually a page number is proper when using books. Can someone give the page number and preferable a quite of the text used to support the statement in the article. The reason I wonder is because this does seem to clash a bit with reality so it would be good to see that this really holds up to scrutiny. -- Juice Leskinen ( talk) 00:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
If anyone feels strongly about keeping the quoted text, please let me know because I aim to remove it fairly soon unless someone can explain exactly how the source relates to the text. Juice Leskinen ( talk) 18:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC) I own that book. I do not have it with me at this moment, but I can get it later today. It's a general psychology book (which was chosen because it offers the most basic views of the field in general) and contains a chapter section on abuse. All I remember is the Rind study is cited once, for a sentence that is something to do with coercion increasing the severity of later mental health issues. Will report back later. Legitimus ( talk) 19:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
717 Rind, B; Tromovitch P, Bauserman R (1998). "A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples". Psychological Bulletin 124 (1): 22–53
326 McNally, RJ (2003). "Progress and controversy in the study of posttraumatic stress disorder" (PDF). Annual Review of Psychology 54: 229–252.
277 Holmes, WC; Slap GB (1999). "Sexual abuse of boys: definition, prevalence, correlates, sequelae, and management". Journal of the American Medical Association 280
195 Rind, B; Tromovitch P (1997). "A meta-analytic review of findings from national samples on psychological correlates of child sexual abuse". The Journal of Sex Research34 (3): 237–255.
92 Salter, A (2003). Predators: pedophiles, rapists, and other sex offenders: who they are, how they operate, and how we can protect ourselves and our children. New York: Basic Books
87 Lilienfeld, SO (2002). "When Worlds Collide: Social Science, Politics and the Rind et al. (1998) Child Abuse Meta-Analysis" (PDF). The American Psychologist 57 (3): 177–187. PMID 11905116
80 Dallam, SJ; et al. (2001). "The effects of child sexual abuse: Comment on Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman (1998)" (PDF). Psychological bulletin 127 (6): 715–33
77 Ondersma SJ et al. (November 2001). "Sex with children is abuse: Comment on Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman (1998)"] (PDF). Psychol Bull 127 (6): 707–14.
42 Rind, B; Bauserman R; Tromovitch P (2001). "The condemned meta-analysis on child sexual abuse; Good science and long-overdue skepticism". Skeptical Inquirer: 68–72.
42 Rind, B; Tromovitch P; Bauserman R (2001). "The validity and appropriateness of methods, analyses, and conclusions in Rind et al. (1998): A rebuttal of victimological critique f Psychological Bulletin 127
32 Senn, TE; Carey, MP; Vanable, PA; Coury-Doniger, P; Urban, M (Oct 2007). "Characteristics of Sexual Abuse in Childhood and Adolescence Influence Sexual Risk Behavior in Adulthood". Arch Sex Behav 36 (5)
31 Spiegel, J (2003). Sexual Abuse of Males: The Sam Model of Theory and Practice. Routledge. pp. 9. ISBN 1560324031
31 Rind, B; Tromovitch P; Bauserman R (2000). "Condemnation of a scientific article: A chronology and refutation of the attacks and a discussion of threats to the integrit. Sexuality and Culture 4 (2): 1–62.
21 Garrison, E. G.; Kobor, P. C. (2002). "Weathering a political storm. A contextual perspective on a psychological research controversy". The American psychologist 57 (3): 165–175
13 Dallam, SJ (2001). "Science or Propaganda? An Examination of Rind, Tromovitch and Bauserman". Journal of Child Sexual Abuse ( Haworth Press) 9 (3/4): 109–134.
10 Baird, B. N. (2002). "Politics, operant conditioning, Galileo, and the American Psychological Association's response to Rind et al. (1998)". The American psychologist 57 (3): 189–19
9 Spiegel, D. (2000). "Suffer the children: Long-term effects of sexual abuse". Society 37 (4): 18–12. doi: doi: 10.1007%2FBF02912286
8 Tavris, C. (2000). "The uproar over sexual abuse research and its findings". Society 37 (4): 15–17. doi: doi: 10.1007%2FBF02912285
5 Tice, PP; Whittenburg JA, Baker G, Lemmey DE. (2000). "The real controversy about child sexual abuse research: Contradictory findings and critical issues not
5 Whitfield CL; Silberg JL; Fink PJ. Misinformation concerning child sexual abuse and adult survivors.
5 Whittenburg, JA; Tice PP; Baker G; Lemmey DE (2000). "A critical appraisal of the 1998 meta-analytic review of child sexual abuse outcomes reported by Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman". Journal of Child S
2 Rind, B (2006). "Meta Analysis, Moral Panic, Congressional Condemnation, and Science: A Personal Journey". Rosnow RL; Hantula DA. Advances in social & organizational psychology: a tribute to Ralph Rosnow
0 Dallam In Whitfield CL; Silberg JL; Fink PJ. Misinformation concerning child sexual abuse and adult survivors. Routledge
0 Ulrich, Heather (June 9, 2007). "Examining the variability in the long term adjustment of child sexual abuse victims" (PDF). University of Montana
no listing on Google Advance scholar: Wood, Samuel H.; Wood, Ellen Meiksins; Boyd, Denise (2008). The world of psychology. Boston, Mass.: Pearson/Allyn and Bacon
no listing on Google Advance scholar: Ulrich, Heather; Randolph Mickey, Acheson Shawn (2005-06). "Child Sexual Abuse: A Replication of the Meta-analytic Examination of Child Sexual Abuse by Rind, Tromo— Radvo ( talk) 00:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
It could be that the scholarly community and the public interested in this topic do not know of Heather Ulrich et al.'s replication of Rind et al. (1998). Even Google Scholar doesn't know about Ulrich, though it does report on other articles in The SRMHP. Wikipedia, with its larger public readership, would provide a useful service to science and to the public by immediately spreading the information about Ulrich's replication and creating interest in it. There is currently one sentence at the end of the Lead that has formatting that makes that sentence about Ulrich's replication invisible to the public. We would like to know if editors would object if we make that sentence now visible. User Legisimus wants to read Ulrich et al. first, we'll wait for her. What about the opinion of User WLU who placed the formating around the sentence, and what is the opinion about this suggestion among other editors?
The relatively high scholarly interest above in Holmes and Slap's article, entitled "Sexual abuse of boys: definition, prevalence, correlates, sequelae, and management" might be especially noted. The scholarly community, and the public, will be well served if we attend somewhat more to the sexual abuse of boys in our Wikipedia article. What do Rind et al., and their critics, and the controversy have to offer to the public and scientific community, on this matter of scholarly interest? There is such relevant information in both the scholarly articles, and in the other secondary media resources that document the controversy, if editors here were willing to focus and study these scholarly and other secondary sources for that specific information, too. Radvo ( talk) 16:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)— Radvo ( talk) 23:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
“ | The analysis and conclusions by Rind et al. (1998) proved to be extremely controversial. Pedophilia advocacy groups used the study to support their view that sexual encounters between children and adults are not detrimental and therefore should be legal. | ” |
“ | The initial meta-analysis of the 18 psychological correlates yielded very similar results in both metaanalyses. Both studies indicated all correlates to be significant except for locus of control. However, the current meta-analysis found that self-esteem was not a significant correlate. After correcting for the homogeneity of the variance, we found that only six of the correlates remained significant. This finding differs from Rind et al.'s (1998) findings as a result of differing methods used to correct for heterogeneous variances....Therefore, Rind et al.'s (1998) finding that 17 of the 18 psychological correlates were significantly associated with child sexual abuse was not supported in the current meta-analysis. | ” |
“ | However, the current meta-analysis found that the psychological correlates that were reported as a function of family factors that could be computed were statistically significant. | ” |
“ | Some individuals may argue that Rind et al.'s (1998) analysis and this reexamination provide support for those who question or deny that child sexual abuse can sometimes be associated with severe psychological harm. The authors of the current research would hesitate to support such a general statement. Instead, our results, and the results of the Rind et al. meta-analysis, can be interpreted as providing a hopeful and positive message to therapists, parents, and children. Child sexual abuse does not necessarily lead to long-term harm. The finding that there is a possibility of a positive prognosis for future adjustment in child sexual abuse victims can play an integral part in therapy. We suggest that future research focus on the potential moderating variables (i. e., family environment characteristics, therapeutic interventions, or possible genetic predispositions) that enable certain individuals to be resilient in the face of sexual abuse. | ” |
We ask the question: "How can this controversial article, its results, the views of its 3 authors, best be described?" It is not the editors' job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own, or the majority, view and then defend those edits against all comers. This article, about the controversial Rind Report, will ideally describe the study, the results, and the 3 authors' views, no matter how misguided or repugnant they are to some readers.
Because this topic is controversial and likely to be WP: CHALLENGED, an editor will remove material that is WP: UNSOURCED. Opinions must be WP:SUBSTANTIATED And editors are limited in the extent they may present their own point of view. Wikipedia pages may not be used for any form of advocacy.
The earlier contested sentence reads, in part:
What did Rind et al. (1998) conclude? This is settled by quoting, or paraphrasing, as accurately and as fairly as possible, what Dr. Rind, Dr. Tromovitch, and Dr. Bauserman concluded in Rind et al. (1998). Those who have not read the study may not insert their own words. They will be challenged.
Take care to WP: NOTADVOCATE a particular view as the view of the authors if it is not found in the source.
Here is the citation: Rind, B; Tromovitch P, Bauserman R (1998). " A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples". Psychological Bulletin 124 (1): 22–53. doi: doi: 10.1037%2F0033-2909.124.1.22. PMID 9670820. Link of the full text of the study..
A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples. Psychological Bulletin 124 (1): 22–53. doi: doi: 10.1037%2F0033-2909.124.1.22. PMID 9670820.
"Morally repugnant" is not substantiated in Rind et al. (1998), but it is easy to substantiate that majority viewpoint with reference to commonly accepted reference texts. Instead of edit waring, does anyone have the beginnings of a proposal for including this idea of "morally repugnant"? Just don't attribute them to Rind, Bauserman, or Tromovitch; they wrote the source and they didn't use the term. That "morally repugnant" has to be attributed to another secondary source.
Here are, IMHO, three relevant quotes from Rind et al. (1998).
Quote from Page 47, the last page.
Two quotes from page 45:
End
(Aside #1)
I would like include somehow in the main article, Rind et al's, Kilpatrick's, Money's & Weinrich's scientific definition "abuse." See the middle quote above. We accept how "abuse" is defined morally and in the law. How to define "abuse" for the scientists who measure its effects and want to predict its effects? By definition, the scientist cannot measure moral or spiritual harm, so if CSA is defined only morally or legally, it has no predictive value. The scientist has to come up with a definition that he/she can measure.
(Aside #2)
-- Something different --
Males and females (on average) view CSA differently.
Quote form Page 43
What is your point? Do you want to remove the sentence "The authors Rind et al. (1998) concluded that... this does not mean it is not wrong or morally repugnant behavior"? That's reasonable I suppose. Herostratus ( talk) 02:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, I'd be leery of relying too much on interpreting the primary source. Is there a not source such a "John Erudite Neutralreporter noted that Rind had said such-and-such" or something? That'd be better. (Granted, this applies also to extracting from the Congressional Motion, where we were on "opposite sides" of the issue, so I dunno. But we do want to be real careful re interpreting primary sources.) Herostratus ( talk) 02:34, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, Radvo, you added a load of claims in the following edit: [5] most of which are not supported by the sources we have now. My cleaning of that section fixed that problem. You now recreated it. So, feel free to either clean it up again, and/or add sources that correspond to the claims you have made.
Thanks. Juice Leskinen 20:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
"Derogatory comments about another contributor may be removed by any editor." No personal attacks Juice Leskinen 21:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Hi 194. Welcome to Rind et al. controversy. Thanks for all the compliments above. You can be very gracious and complimentary, and it's nice to read that part of you that likes to complment, too. Haven't we met here before? I have a lot of demands on my time just now, so no long sceed now, but I want to at least acknowledge that I have read all of the above. When I was a kid I used to get in verbal spats like that. This makes me feel like a kid again. I may respond in a bit childish way here. I hope this does not offend anyone.
Juice took some words about "CSA causing harm" out of the article. I argued with him that its removal was a mistake. At first, he added the words to the sentence "societal belief" and claimed that Ondersma was the source. That was great. Then he thought about it some more, and then he put those words about "CSA causing harm" back in. He did that himself because he wanted to be responsive and collaborative. You may not have seen that, because once he put those words about "harm" back in, I felt he was giving me "permission" to immediately elaborated on what he wrote—before you probably even saw it. (Now I am on the carpet with him for going too far. I'll find some sources or delete some text to respond to his complaint tomorrow.) Are you happy with how things in the edit turned out for now? If you are, we couldn't have done it without Juice's expert help. We had to go thru that process. That's the genius of Wikipedia. Would you change or improve the wording still more somehow in that sentence? Are you feeling good that the majority view is getting some coverage here, too? Or if it's not yet perfect, can we work together to improve that sentence some more? Maybe Juice will even help us, if we take his views into consideration and we ask him in a nice way. We would be honored is you would choose to collaborate with us in making a great article. You've lurked enough. That shows your interest in what is going on here. We have work to do... Use your talents to help us as you can. Give this a try.
Juice: You obviously know the scholarly literature. I want you to do what you have to do so you stick around. There is a little flag on your signature; you may be especially watched. You're the kid with the eyeglasses on this board who does the homework. We need you to make this article "good." But if I can give you a bit of unsolicited advise: when you have having a fight with someone, the person who is cussing you out, may not be too receptive to learning some of the finer points of the scholarly literature from you at that time. Because of the special scrutiny you are being given, it might be best to just walk away. But I read what you wrote, and I thought that stuff you were writing was very insightful! I understand what you were saying, and I think I might agree with you. So: Help me; teach me. I will try to make a good student for you. Here's a crazy idea. Since you know the literature, suppose you do User:194 a favor. Give him/her a couple of juicy facts and studies from the literature that User:194 wants to hear. There are some decent studies that claim harm; but, okay already, they aren't your favorites. Share some of that scholarly information with him/her here. Imagine that Wikipedia has just retained you at $1,000. per hour to make User:194's case on this board. For that kind of money, with your mastery of the literature, you could come up with lots of studies and arguments and make a great case for him/her. Use your skills and mastery of the literature to help to make an excellent brief. Defense attorneys do this for their clients all the time. You can do this because you know a lot, and importantly you probably know the weaknesses of your own case, too. If you build User:194's trust, if you build a lot of political capital on this board, User:194 might, in time, get to tolerate you—because you are useful in getting User:194's voice heard, When you took words out of the article, I speculate she may have felt you were silencing her voice. She wasn't going to have that. She made her voice very clearly known. So give her a voice in the article, and he/she may find you kind of useful. And she won't have to cuss you out to get a rise out of you. In time, he/she might even return the favor, he/she might let you know how you can more effectively make your case, what places in the argument you may not go, and how to survive here, too.
Here's a minor research study I saw today; it piqued my interest and mild amusement: Girls who are sexually abused are 25% more likely to carry weapons as adolescents. The researcher actually claimed there is a direct causal effect. See Annie Oakley's girls. I figure those adolescent are damn sure, now that they are bigger and teen, they are not going to let anyone abuse them again! Now that's a form of resilience and strong locus of control we can appreciate in such a girl. The weapon gives the feeling that no one will take advantage of her again. That's a kind of comfort such a girl may need. Both of you: how many kids are harmed by sexual abuse is a matter of fact, not to be settled by a shouting match. Even one child who is harmed by child rape (or anything else) is one child too many! Children need our love and our protection. And "it takes a village to raise a child", and we can all do our part to make the community and the world safer and happier for children. We don't want to write anything in the main article that puts kids in danger of harm. I like to think that facts are our friends, and it's wrong to shoot the messenger who brings us facts that we cannot tolerate! Since you guys broke some rules, I figured I would follow this rule WP: IGNORE writing this. But I meant well. When you guys are finished quarreling, I'll be ready to get back to the work of collaboratively making this article better. Specific suggestions on how to improve that sentence, and how to get out of the hot seat with Juice, are especially welcome Let's give more effort to getting along and working collaboratively together... -- Radvo ( talk) 03:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Note. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 02:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I have finished my trim, it took considerable time to remove the links to sites advocating child rape, repeated sources and unreliable sources. Please take more care when suggesting or linking sources - at minimum they should be reliable (which means no blogs and given the amount of scholarly coverage, newspapers should be used judiciously) and absolutely no links to pro-child rape websites either as primary sources or as convenience links to sources. I also removed the chunk of text pasted at the bottom, arguably a copyright violation and possibly irrelevant as it didn't seem to mention Rind et al. If a source is immediately useful, it would be much better to simply edit the main page to include it. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 15:40, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Sexual violence is one of the most horrific weapons of war, an instrument of terror used against women. Yet huge numbers of men are also victims.
{{
cite news}}
: Text "Society" ignored (
help); Text "The Observer" ignored (
help) Today, associating a research study with rape and child rape in polite society is a new weapon of psychological warefare, domination, degradation and humiliation. Some of this degradation of the Rind research has already been documented in my wall of words. Publicly associating those innocent scholars with child rape, and whose scholarly work was deleted from my list, may be a form of "degradation ceremony." Source: Garfinkel J. (1956) ("Conditions of successful degradation ceremonies" American Journal of Sociology Volume 61, pp. 420-424) A degradation ceremony is assigning stigma to these journal authors for supporting the research of Rind et al.(1998), so no Wikipedia editor will want to see what these authors' wrote. A scientist or researcher who is publicly associated with child rape (as done above), is stigmatized, and by definition, a researcher or writer with a stigma is not quite human. They have been de-graded, and they are fundamentally flawed as human beings. They now have "a spoiled identity." This is all relevant to the experience of the Rind controversy.I've been relatively polite up until now. That ceases with the ANI posting. There is no fucking way that it will ever, ever be appropriate to link to sites advocating for child rape. For you to suggest, and keep linking to, and keep arguing for the inclusion of these sites is unacceptable. It doesn't matter how many people you want to step in - it's child rape, and if you don't see the problem with linking to those sites, you need to get off of this one. You're fucking right I'm not willing to wait for a third opinion, any sort of advocacy for child rape is wrong, and wikipedia is sullied by association if any of those child rape advocacy sites are ever included on our pages - including talk pages. If you want to link your IP address to sites advocating child rape and do the work of mining them for sources that could be included on the page, fine - post those sources. But there is ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING REASON for the actual sites to be linked. They will never be reliable, they are not a fringe theory that deserves minority coverage, they are advocating for something illegal, immoral and unethical that the wikipedia community has consistently said is unacceptable. They are not even convenient links as there is no guarantee the content has not been edited to present a bias.
I shouldn't have to make points based on policies and guidelines - wikipedia is a mainstream site and pedophilia is just about the most heinous crime found within the Western world. It is beyond common sense that continuing to link to these sites is worse than inappropriate. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 02:48, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
What was this and this then? You have three experienced editors saying you should stop linking to these sites. Leadership council is still on this page, but is also not a reliable source. Drop it. How many times do I have to say it, links to sites that advocate child rape are unacceptable, will never be acceptable, and are never going to be valid convenience links. Ever. Sources do not need to be convenient, they must merely exist and be reliable. If readers have to visit a library instead of a webpage advocating for the rape of children, all except the child rapists will thank us. Fucking drop it. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 11:22, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
This exceeds TLDR and is not compatible with WP:TPG. See my comment below. Johnuniq ( talk) 01:43, 10 January 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Radvo: If you know or reasonably suspect that an external Web site is carrying a work in violation of the creator's copyright, do not link to that copy of the work. Knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement. This applies to talk and article pages. See Wikipedia:Copyright#Linking_to_copyrighted_works.
Wikipedia's approach to health-related topics is very conservative. The kinds of sources required to support health-related claims in this article include only, to all intents and purposes, scholarly reviews published in respected peer-reviewed journals. See WP:MEDRS.
Editing Wikipedia articles requires politeness, assumption of good faith on behalf of other editors, and a firm grasp of our editing policies (you must understand the policies you've been pointed to on this talk page, and quite a few others that will be pointed out to you as you transgress them). Particularly on controversial articles like this, the only practical way for a new editor to make significant change is to put the exact words of a proposed edit, alongside any existing text it may be replacing, and citing the WP:MEDRS-compliant source that says precisely what your edit says, but in different words and structure, on this talk page for others to consider. -- Anthonyhcole ( talk) 13:14, 9 January 2012 (UTC) Updated 04:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Johnuniq wrote to Radov: "If there is ... an actionable suggestion for an improvement to this article, please post it in a new section." He then closed my edit and closed his comment from view. This message appears if you open my edit with the button on the right side:
"The following discussion has been closed."
Correction: It was hardly open for anyone to see! I want my post opened up for discussion here. If frank discussion is refused here, alternatively, everything (the harassment, the libel,the vulgarity, and repeated insult, the tampering with my posted photo of McMartin, the archiving of my 10 day old edit to Archive2, the redacting of all my edits, etc.) will pulled together and presented at WP:WQA. It will take a couple of days to pull the detail of my mistreatment together, but this may be my best option to establish a better working climate here with all editors for the longer run. I will learn something for myself, too.
Anthonyhcole suggested an alternative way to go forward. Anthonyhcole wrote:
This suggests how we might work together on this article in the future. See the full text of Anthonyhcole's edit above. I support this. What do other active editors here think about this recommendation? Do Herostratus, Truthinwriting, Legitimus, Johnuniq and other currently active editors, agree to this "Cole recommendation"? Or does anyone have any modification to the Cole recommendation to suggest? Correct me if I'm wrong, I am under the impression that we already discussed, and tentatively agreed, in the past month, that there are different parts of this Rind et al. article. One part summarizes the Rind study, so the reader receives a good summary of what the study reported. The other part of our article relates, in a NPOV, the controversy. Especially for the part of the article that reports the summary of the Rind meta-analysis, and the WP:Lead, do we agree to give up using WP:BEBOLD and work as Anthonyhcole suggests? IMHO, WP:BEBOLD is not appropriate for such a sensitive, controversial, and difficult-to-grasp mathematical study. See also WP:TECHNICAL and fringe results; outside the mainstream of common sense, as, IMHO, the ideas in these articles may also help editors.
Those who have read and understand meta-analysis (see WP:TECHNICAL), are in a position to write good numbers to summarize it for the Wikipedia reader. Encyclopedia articles should not " tell lies to children" in the sense of giving editors an easy path to the feeling that they understand something, at the price that what they then understand is wrong." IMHO, some of what editors believe is true about the Rind study is false. One has to read the study, and even then, without the background in meta-analysis and research methods, it is hard to understand.
Anthonyhcole suggests, "you must understand the policies you've been pointed to on this talk page..." That does not only apply to me. Editors don't have to agree about a topic to collaborate on a great article. It takes mutual respect and a willingness to abide by referenced sources and site policy. No editor, no matter how experienced, or how much he feels he owns this topic, sets policy without consensus or reference to written Wikipedia references. Sustained discussion shows that I am trying to identify the problems, clarify my thoughts and situation here, and find solutions. For a much longer version of this edit, see the version that Johnuniq hid from view without my permission or consent WP:TALK, And Johnuniq closed the discussion of my longer post without adequate justification. I protest the lack of consensus, but am willing to move on, if we now get back to editing work.
Aside 1:I will not to knowingly post any URL's or scholarly articles that violate copyright laws, even in a secondary way. Avoiding copyright violation is Wikipedia policy, and the right thing to do! This has nothing to do with false accusations of advocacy of child rape, The Leadership Council is apparently guilty of the same copyright violations as Everything you wanted to know about The Rind Controversy, (that is, the Rind part of mhamic.org,) so it cannot be linked for journal article listings from the Leadership Council either.
Aside2: Johnuniq suggests that "reports about editor behavior are started at WP:WQA" As started above, I am the victim of impolite, uncivil and other difficult communications and I seek redress. We can settle this here, or we can settle this at [WP:WQA]. I resent some of the language and insult that has been directed towards me. I feel bullied out of posting real work on the main page here. Herostratus, WLU, and one IP address will be named in my complaint. I will take my time to throughly document my case from various locations on Wikipedia. I will post it at WP:WQA.
This may be a lengthly process because I am collecting so much detail. I may postpone or change my mind, if things shape up here, preferring instead to edit, with dignity and respect, the main article than go through a lengthly process. Let's see how things go here in the next few days.... Radvo ( talk)
Hello, Rind et al. controversy. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.
"Stephanie Dallam and Anne Salter have pointed out that Rind and Bauserman have had associations with age of consent reform organizations." Isn't this an invalid guilt-by-association argument? I can't remeber, but i think Rind responded to this in some way. 85.183.82.188 ( talk) 23:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
I know. Hence i was asking if somebody remembers Rinds reply to it, because i think he did. 85.183.82.188 ( talk) 16:02, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Click here to see the names of a number of State legislatures that condemned, or considered condemning, the Rind et al. (1998) study in the Spring of 1999.. This matter has not been well researched here, and needs a volunteer to email the advocates for this effort and find the exact texts of those State resolutions on line. The sample of additional states includes possibly Delaware, Illinois, New Jersey, Oregon, and Pennsylvania.
The media debate climaxed in the unprecedented condemnation of a research paper by government legislatures in the Spring and Summer of 1999. There was much overlap in the texts of the condemnations of the various legislatures, as if they all came from the same source. The State of Alaska was first on May 11, 1999 with (CSHJR 36). [1] Alaska Bill No 36 state of Alaska
A similar resolution passed the Oklahoma state senate on the 27th day of May, 1999 [2]
Oklahoma expressed concern that
The Rind et al. (1998) paper was condemned by the federal government, starting with the United States House of Representatives (HCR 107) on July 12, 1999, The vote in favor of the resolution in the House was 355-0, with 13 Members voting "present". [3] does not verify text - WLU The vote in the U.S. House of Representatives was followed two weeks later by a voice voice in the United States Senate. Bill 106 Bill 106 [4] It passed the Senate concurrently on July 30th, 1999 U.S. House of Representatives & Senate concurrent resolution. The Federal government condemnation included this language about harm, and using the Rind report in the criminal law:
California. Resolution, SJR 17, condemning Rind et al. (1998) passed the California Senate on September 3, 1999, by a vote of 40-0. Emphasizing the possible use of the Rind et al. study in the local courts, California's resolution includes a non-binding request that defense attorneys and courts disregard the controversial Rind report. (These ideas may have come from the attorney hired by the advocacy group called The Leadership Council, [Stephanie Dallam, Dr. Fink, et al.] which [with the Family Council?], may have been coaching the legislatures. Details of this coaching of legislatures appears in one of the books in the Sources list.
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help)Radvo ( talk) 05:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Why has all the above been posted here? Material in an article should be based on secondary sources. If there is a suggestion that the article contain extracts from legislation, the situation is no way—articles do not contain items cherry picked by editors to show some point of view. Please do not use reference notation on talk pages: just show a link or a title if required. Johnuniq ( talk) 06:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Radvo, what's your reason for changing "NAMBLA" to "NAMbLA" in the article? Herostratus ( talk) 06:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
I integrated the content of two sections that were sourced by Carol Tavris's article in Society. I made a complex edit, and put that edit into the first paragraph of the Controversies section.
WLU reverted it because of too much analysis and too much verbiage.
I moved a photo, and was beginning to edit to make things more concise as requested. Before I could even begin to post by work to reduce the verbiage, I was reverted a second time. Dontbite I will file a complaint if this continues.
Johnuniq objected to wording in the second sentence. I immediately removed the entire sentence. I was following BRD.
I then made a number of edits to remove analysis and verbage to meet WLU's objection.
I would like to discuss the paragraph, as it now exits after my series of edits to make this more concise. How can we work to improve this paragraph?
Please discuss the issues you have with the edit here on this talk page and work things out. Please be specific. I will consider and negotiate future changes. Please do not revert this again until you discuss. I prefer to make the discussed changes myself. If you don't like what I have done the next time, we can continue the discussion here.
I am using WLU's preferred mode of working. He refuses Anthonhcole's suggestion that we discuss things first, as I would prefer. I believe we should all follow the same rules. See my previous attempts to get some discussion going about how editors work on this topic.
I am using what I understand to be BRD..
Radvo ( talk) 05:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Could we agree here that before an editor reverts another editor's work, the editor who plans to revert should open a new section and explain the revert in detail BEFORE the revert is made. Then if an editor gets reverted, he/she can go immediately to the talk page and find out the problem. After I was twice reverted today, I looked on the TALK page,and saw no detail for the reason for the reverts, so I assumed I was being reverted for the reasons in the edit summaries, and that was all the feedback I was going to get. So, I used the information in the edit summary to make the requested changes. And I was reverted a second time as I was making the changes. I had get back to my work to make the changes requested. That is why I twice reverted to get back to my work to make it more concise, and to removed the sentence that was objected to. What do editors here think of this proposal? Radvo ( talk) 06:05, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
WLU: We are reporting the Rind results. You removed from the article something about willing and consensual. There are two separate phenomena: (1) harm and (2) willingness. Rind found them to be statistically correlated. Maybe you would use words like: they are "inherently related" to each other. Rind is impossible to understand if you insist that CSA (as variably defined) is not consensual by definition. Some things you already are convinced of causes a lot of cognitive dissonance for you. The problem may be, in part, with the definition of willing, consensual, CSA, but let's just accept the Rind results as they are. The critique comes later. A made-up example: a 21 year old has a sexual relationship with a 15 year old. The 15 year old experiences the sex as consensual, willing, harmless. There are no measures showing the 15 year old is harmed, traumatized. When the 15 year old gets to college, the individual completes a questionnaire and reports things as experienced. The experience was, in some places, not "consensual" by law; it was immoral by many accepted and respected standards. But it may very well have been willing if the person reports it that way on a questionnaire. The researcher, nevertheless, says, because of the ages involved, this is CSA. The researcher and Rind think of a case like this as consensual CSA. You resist that idea very stongly, but if you want to understand Rind, you cannot reject what he reports because of some definition you have. Rind gets the data of that experience with the study from the professional literature, and puts that study in his "mixed" category; these studies have samples that included both consenting and non-consenting subjects. You are fighting the source if you don't accept these mixed samples (of consensual and non-consensual CSA). Accept the Source, as is. Critique later. You wrote above:
"while Rind et al. did suggest not all abuse is harmful, it is still not consensual by definition ... - care must be taken not to word the article in such a way that the abuse as portrayed as innocuous or harmless".
That's non-sense! You don't know or understand the study. I don't know how to tell you this without your getting upset: In Rind's study, some CSA, as it is sometimes and variably defined by the authors of the 59 studies, is harmless, not harmful. In the example I gave above, you can imagine that some college student, included in some CSA study, was at one time the 15 year old, (These were self reports by college students.) Your prior definitions are irrelevant to reporting what the Source (and the authors of the 59 studies) report. The definition of CSA is not up to you. The variable definition of CSA was up to the researchers who completed the 59 studies. (This poor construct of CSA gets discussed as a problem later.) This goes farther: Rind suggested that one reason CSA is not harmful has to do with "willingness". If you refuse to permit that a relationship between a 21 year old and a 15 year old might be perceived by both participants as willing and harmless, you cannot understand and accept what Rind reports. If simply accepting and understanding what Rind wrote is a problem for you, maybe you should be editing another topic. Rind has to go with the data from the 15,000 subjects. You resist and interfere with what the source reports. It would also be easier if you stopped trying to critique the results and the CSA construct. Save that for later after you understand what Rind did. Can you understand and accept this? Rind wrote:
"These finding indicated that inclusion of willingness eliminated the relationship [between CSA and malajustment] in the mixed category (that is, studies by other researchers that included consenting and non-consenting subjects), implying that willingness itself was not [statistically] associated with psychological maladjustment in the case of males." Source: http://books.google.ca/books?lr=&id=NqT0GCxUDJsC&q=willingness#v=snippet&q=willingness&f=false Advances in social & organizational psychology: a tribute to Ralph Rosnow By Donald A. Hantula January 4, 2006 Routledge Taylor and Francis Group ISBN 10 0805855904 page 172. Radvo (talk) 9:22 pm, Today (UTC−5) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Radvo ( talk • contribs) 02:30, 13 January 2012 (UTC) Radvo ( talk) 02:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC) Fine, but WLU is an experienced editor who knows that personal opinions are not adequate for writing an article at Wikipedia (and there is no need to worry about causing upset—that only occurs when somone repeatedly posts long passages that are not focused on what can be done to improve the article). What text in the article has a problem? What source provides what information that shows there is a problem? Johnuniq ( talk) 03:59, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Rind et al. did respond to the U.S. Congress. In fact, some of this response should be used to balance the Congressional condemnation in the article. Here is the Rind et al. response:
Claiming among other things that "all credible studies in this area ... condemn child sexual abuse as criminal and harmful to children," and citing a 1982 Supreme Court opinion that expressed this view, House Congressional Resolution 107 proclaimed our study to be "severely flawed." It condemned and denounced "all suggestions in the article ... that indicate that sexual relationships between adults and 'willing' children are less harmful than believed and might be positive for 'willing' children."
[snip]
This [Congressional] resolution was built on the criticisms made by NARTH, " Dr. Laura," the Family Research Council, and The Leadership Council. Its specific comments and wording were heavily drawn from the Alaska resolution, which was itself based on some of these criticisms. Given that we have just shown these criticisms to be without merit [see citation below], the characterization of our study as "severely flawed" must be seen as invalid.
It is not the case that all credible studies have concluded harm, as our review amply demonstrated, unless concluding harm is viewed as a prerequisite to judging a study "credible."
The 1982 Supreme Court opinion was made when CSA research was relatively scant and unsophisticated; in our review, almost all the studies (57 of 59) were published after 1982.
Willingness is in fact relevant to outcome. We neither stated nor implied that CSA might be positive for willing children, as "positive" in this context connotes beneficial. Instead, we accurately summarized what the students themselves reported in terms of perceived reactions and effects, some of which were positive.
Finally, using the best methodology involves being strongly grounded in methodological logic (specifically regarding issues of generalizability and causality) and statistical precision, qualities that characterized our review above most others.
[End]
Source of the above: Rind, B; Tromovitch P; Bauserman R (2000). "Condemnation of a scientific article: A chronology and refutation of the attacks and a discussion of threats to the integrity of science". Sexuality and Culture 4 (2): 1–62. doi:10.1007/s12119-000-1025-5 page 42-3. This article provides a great deal of detail and is highly recommended to other editors here. -- Radvo ( talk) 05:10, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Here is another quote that is Rind's response to Congress:
The fact that the U.S. government condemned our review indicates nothing negative about the review's merits, although our critics have often advanced this specious argument. The history of science and philosophy is filled with important and even great works that have conflicted with prevailing opinion and have then been condemned, banned, or burned following campaigns by moral crusaders and power holders. If anything, such treatment speaks to a work's genuine merit, rather than to its invalidity. Source: Rosnow R. L; Hantala,D.A. Advances in social and organizational Psychology: a Tribute to Ralph L. Rosnow Page 190.
The second post to this TALK page, more that 3 years ago, asked for an explanation of the study. Too much controversy and negativity was a problem here from the very start. This negativity chases new editors away. Bite
That old post reads:
Lots of progress has been made in three years, but I am not satisfied with the removal of most of Truthinwriting's 'Findings in brief' section by an editor who probably has not read the study, refuses to read it, and is not qualified to write a short summary of the findings or results. He doesn't know that he doesn't know the material and he doesn't know that I know he doesn't know the material. Telling how many participants were included in the study and how many studies were meta-analyzed is good, but we had to discuss that at great length to even get that in the article. What about the Rind results? There is little about the results in the current page.
Truthinwriting has read the study, and even understands it. I alerted Dr. Rind to this "Findings in Brief' summary, he read it, and said it was a good summary of the results of the 32 page jargon laden study. What is the problem with including it here? The 'Finding in brief' section was removed without Truthinwriting's consent or mine. We are lectured about consensus, and then Herostratus and WLU work without consensus, or even asking for consensus.
How about an appendix summarizing the entire study, not just the study itself.
Or start an entirely new topic starting with the Findings in brief section and a very professional tone. And then dealing only with the methodological and statistical problems on that page. Why should editors who have read and understood the study have to educate editors about the very basics of the study because the inexperienced editors refusal to do their homework? We can't do their homework for others. If the Pedophile Article Watch sends someone over to oversee things, we editors of the new page will demand from the appropriate Adminstration authority that the PAW representative must have read and understood the 1997 and 1998 papers. Otherwise that PAW representative is unwelcome to edit content of the paper and certainly not redact what editors who read the study may write. The new page would avoid discussing the controversy outside the scholarly circles. (The current article could deal more thoroughly with The Family Research Council, The Leadership Council, Radio Talk show hosts Dr. Laura and Dom Giordano, the state and Congressional condemnation, the lobbying, the fear of malpractice suites, etc.
Should we split this article in two and start a new page with just the Rindings in Brief section, and only editors who have read and understood the study may participate and edit. Others will be redacted unless they make unusually talented posts based on good secondary sources. Maybe in a year or two, the two articles might be merged together again.
The "controversy part" can stay here, and editors here need to read only the dozens of secondary sources, not the original Rind material? They can continue with The Leadership Council's fetish of linking the Rind article with advocacy organizations,, etc. as they have for years. The professionals I am looking to work with may not want to sully their professional experience and credentials with this biased crap, and the BRDDDDD.. I would rather work with peers and professionals above my pay grade, psychologists, sexologists, and statisticians who can handle the complexity and the significance of this powerful material.
BRD is not appropriate for people who have not read the study. There is just too much to explain. The Anthonyhcole method is superior, but we have no consensun on using it.
I would especially like to read Truthinwriting's response to this, if he is still watching these ideas. Radvo ( talk) 21:04, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
I need to ask something important at this juncture. Do you have any personal association with Bruce Rind, Philip Tromovitch, or Robert Bauserman? Are you one of those three, or were you ever a colleague of any of them? Did you have anything to do with the work of these three related to this paper? The reason I ask is not a condemnation, but rather a matter of policy on conflicts of interest. You would not be blocked or punished in any way if you are, nor barred from editing this article, but rather it simply creates the necessity for proper disclosure and consideration for due weight. I highly recommend you read this specific section of the COI policy as it reads almost exactly like our interactions with you thus far on this article. And for pete's sake, try to keep your reply under 1000 characters. Legitimus ( talk) 22:13, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Sadly, Radvo seem to have read the actual study and thus almost anything he contributes here will be based on that, rather than popular opinion which is what Wikipedia should represent. Juice Leskinen ( talk) 23:17, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
I would encourage anyone connected with Radvo to explain that posting long screeds is unhelpful—really unhelpful, as it makes it too difficult to see any substantive point. Yes, this is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit, but there are many hundreds of contentious topics here which all go through the phase evident recently in this article: new editors arrive to right great wrongs but they seldom take the time to listen to experienced editors, and eventually find themselves blocked as being unable to collaborate. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Yeah I don't believe Radvo for a second he's not Dr. Rind. He posts the same way he lectures when I had his class at Temple back in '07 or '08, with the rambling topics and lack of structure. I used to fall asleep in that class. Plus, Radvo talks to Dr. Rind on the phone and has his personal e-mail? That's mighty convenient. And his obvious fervor for painting Rind and this paper as "brilliant"... given Rind's entire publication history for the past 15 years has been nothing but responses and counter-claim pieces on this paper, with a few on restaurant tipping for flavor. I mean who do you think you're fooling? Not that there's anything wrong with it if you are Dr. Rind. The COI policy isn't like the pedo policy; you can still edit. But the other users deserve to know who they are dealing with when someone so vehemently tries to defend this factually accurate but sociologically moronic paper. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.231.63.96 ( talk) 21:12, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
The Controversy Section contains this clause:
Dr. Rind, Dr. Tromovitch, and Dr. Bauserman are not public figures and are relatively unknown. This statement is an insult, inflammatory and offensive, and repeating this in the Wikipedia article prejudices the reader from judging the Rind Report on its scientific merit.
Dr. Rind asks the editors here to please delete this repetition of Dr. Laura's libelous statement.
If this cannot be settled with the editors directly, the discussion here, and this appeal, will be taken to the BLP noticeboard. -- Radvo ( talk) 23:20, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
WLU made one sentence, at the end of the Lead, describing the Ulrich et al. (2005) replication of Rind et al. (1998), invisible to the reader. But that sentence still can be seen when in edit mode. Here is WLU's edit. WLU's edit summary was: "SRMHP not pubmed indexed, which calls for considerable caution."
WLU: Can you point to a WP: policy that states we cannot use, in the Lead, as a reliable secondary source, a scholarly journal that is not "pubmed indexed"? I looked but could not find any Wikipedia guidance on that. I would like to see that policy myself. Do you, or any other editor here, have the WP:URL? If there is no adequate response here, I will seek a neutral third opinion outside this TALK section.
The hidden sentence reads:
Some of our previous TALK about SRMHP pasted here:
WLU: This is speculation: SRMHP's editor, Dr. Scott O. Lilienfild, may be widely regarded as a fiercely independent whistle blower, and may have alienated the medical and psychological community with "his" muckraking Journal that aggressively exposes unsupported claims in the medical and social science disciplines. "The establishment", in turn, may refuse his journal a listing on Pubmed. That might be a way for "the establishment" to retaliate against him because of his aggressive whistle-blowing approach to pseudoscience. Or Dr. Lilienfeld may just fiercely guard his independence, and refuses to submit to some Pubmed requirement for listing. He quit the APA when, at first, the organization refused to publish his embarrassing [to the APA] article: Lilienfeld, S O (2002). "When Worlds Collide: Social Science, Politics and the Rind et al. (1998) Child Abuse Meta-Analysis" (PDF). The American Psychologist 57 (3): 177–187. PMID 11905116. Archived from the original on 2003–04–29.
(BTW, Rind et al. controversy quotes this Lilienfeld article 7 times; so there is no "considerable caution" about using him as a source when he writes for the American Psychologist, just "considerable caution" about the journal he edits.) Should I e-mail Dr. Lilienfeld and ask him why his journal is not pubmed listed? On the other hand, I cannot imagine an answer from Dr. Lilienfield that would make your "considerable caution" about SRMHP any less.
I have noticed that, to avoid the controversy, a group of on-line psychiatrists referenced Ulrich et al. (2005-6) with the full citation and abstract—instead of citing the controversial Rind et al. (1998). Take a look at this psychiatrist's post to an Internet help forum. Here's the link. He/she mentions Rind et al. (1998), but does not give its citation or its abstract. This psychiatrist points out to his client that the Rind study was replicated (without giving a citation to the original) and then gives the full citation and link to the abstract for the Ulrich replication. This psychiatrist argues that the successful replication of Rind et al. (1998) is a strong argument for the validity of the results of the later. This on-line psychiatrist gives me the impression that he/she thinks the non-controversial replication is even more important than the original because it is not tainted with the controversy and Congressional condemnation.
Here's the link again. Please read the text to the bottom; I want all editors here to see that this independent psychiatrist has a very different "attitude" toward Rind et al. (1998) and Heather et al. (2005-6) than the editors here who are sympathetic to the unwarranted aggression I associate with editors, like Herostratus, associated with the Pedophile Article Watch PAW. I would love to have this psychiatrist join Wikipedia and bring his sympathetic attitude here, to counterbalance the disrespectful PAW attitudes, but I will NOT invite him to edit here, as that would be WP:MEAT.
In case the link I gave twice above does not work, here is the relevant part:
[Start quote from Psychforums.com: "Ask a Psychiatrist"]
[End quote]
In the interest of full disclosure: I am not the psychiatrist who wrote that response on line. No COI.
I ask the editors here to comment on my desire to make again visible, in the Lead, the one sentence about Ulrich's replication (This sentence is also pasted into the first indented paragraph above). -- Radvo ( talk) 18:21, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
It's very simple: The article more than meets Wikipedias criteria for inclusion. A much lower standard is in place here, you could pretty much use a newspaper article as a source here. That being said, if there is anything in the actual study that is dubious then it could be well worth discussing and might in the end lead us to remove it from the article. Until then, it remains a valid source. Juice Leskinen ( talk) 20:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
That is, go ahead and make your edit unless some spectacular counter-argument comes up in the near future. Juice Leskinen ( talk) 20:51, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
July 1998 - the paper by Bruce Rind, Philip Tromovitch and Robert Bauserman was published in Psychological Bulletin.
December 1998 - the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) criticized the study for its methodology and conclusions. Criticism of it began to appear on the internet.
March, 1999 - it was then attacked by The Wanderer, a Catholic religious newspaper, talk show host Dom Giordano, and Dr. Laura Schlessinger. In response, the APA declared in a press statement that "the sexual abuse of children is wrong and harmful to its victims" and that "the findings of a research project within an APA journal is in no way an endorsement."
In an internal APA email refFowler, R. (1999). "RE: APA statements". Child Maltreatment Researchers (Mailing List), Retrieved from http://www.ndacan.cornell.edu/cmrlpostings/msg01569.html/ref the President of the APA, Raymond Fowler, wrote
Many critics have demanded that APA repudiate the study. Because the article has attracted so much attention, we have carefully reviewed the process by which it was approved for publication and the soundness of the methodology and analysis. This study passed the journal's rigorous peer review process and has, since the controversy, been reviewed again by an expert in statistical analysis who affirmed that it meets current standards and that the methodology, which is widely used by the National Institutes of Health (NIH) to develop guidelines, is sound.
June 9, 1999 - the president of the APA, Raymond Fowler, announced in an open letter to Representative Tom DeLay that there was to be an independent review of the controversial paper.
July 12, 1999] - the United States House of Representatives unanimously passed a resolution declaring that "sexual relations between children and adults are abusive, exploitive, and reprehensible, and should never be considered or labeled as harmless or acceptable." It condemned the study specifically on the grounds that "pedophiles and organizations, such as the North American Man-Boy Love Association, that advocate laws to permit sex between adults and children are exploiting the study to promote and justify child sexual abuse." [1] The resolution was passed unanimously in the Senate.
September 15, 1999 - the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), whom APA under political pressure had asked for an independent review of the article, did refuse to review the article again in order to respond to its political rejection saying that: We see no reason to second guess the process of peer review used by the APA journal in its decision to publish the article in question. While not without its imperfections, peer review is well established as a standard mechanism for maintaining the flow of scientific information that scientists can refer to, critique or build on. After examining all the materials available to the committee, we saw no clear evidence of improper application of methodology or other questionable practices on the part of the article's authors.
The Committee also wishes to express its grave concerns with the politicization of the debate over the article's methods and findings. In reviewing the set of background materials available to us, we found it deeply disconcerting that so many of the comments made by those in the political arena and in the media indicate a lack of understanding of the analysis presented by the authors or misrepresented the article's findings. All citizens, especially those in a position of public trust, have a responsibility to be accurate about the evidence that informs their public statements. We see little indication of that from the most vocal on this matter, behaviour that the Committee finds very distressing.
The AAAS's Committee of Scientific Freedom and Responsibility reported that they "saw no clear evidence of improper application of methodology or other questionable practices on the part of the article's authors." However, AAAS also added that "if there were such problems, uncovering them would be the task of those reviewing it prior to publication or to readers of the published article" and attached the following disclaimer: "The fact that the Committee has chosen not to proceed with an evaluation of the article in the Psychological Bulletin should not be seen either as endorsement or criticism of it." (p. 3)
March 2002 - The fact that politics has intervened in the field of science has raised many from researchers concerned about its implications for the independence of the scientific peer-reviewing process. Some, including two Psychological Bulletin editors, call Raymond Fowler's June 9 letter a capitulation to political pressure. The affair was also later discussed in issue of another APA journal, American Psychologist.-- Radvo ( talk) 04:43, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Is the a new section you want to add or what are we supposed to do here? -- Juice Leskinen ( talk) 18:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Rind et al. mentions consent and this is quite a controversial issue that has been completely erased from the current article. Few people seem to understand what they actually claimed and get all riled up over their overactive imaginations. Is it possible to explain it so people understand and including it in the article, or does peoples brains just shut-off when the topic is brought before their eyes?
(feel free to read the original article if you have no idea what I'm talking about)— Juice Leskinen ( talk) 21:33, 24 January 2012 (UTC) Indeed many facets of this work seem to get hung up on both terminology and unfortunate implications. What specifically did you have in mind? I am reading the original text and I am not clear how consent is defined according to the paper. Legitimus ( talk) 21:49, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Giordano: Psychiatrists driving him mad Giordano, Dom. "Giordano: Psychiatrists driving him mad." News Gleaner (Philadelphia, PA) 25 Jun. 2003, News: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
PITTS CONDEMNS CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE REPORT LAWMAKERS DISTORT FINDINGS, AUTHORS SAY Schreiber, Ernest. "PITTS CONDEMNS CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE REPORT LAWMAKERS DISTORT FINDINGS, AUTHORS SAY." Lancaster New Era (PA) 22 May, 1999, L: A-6. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
LOCAL STUDY ON PEDOPHILIA IS RAISING A NATIONAL FUROR Burling, Stacey. "LOCAL STUDY ON PEDOPHILIA IS RAISING A NATIONAL FUROR." Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) 10 Jun. 1999, SF, NATIONAL: A01. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
HOUSE DECRIES A CHILD-SEXUAL-ABUSE STUDY THE REPORT, PUBLISHED LAST YEAR, SAID THAT LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF THE ENCOUNTERS WERE NOT AS SERIOUS AS MANY BELIEVED. Burling, Stacey. "HOUSE DECRIES A CHILD-SEXUAL-ABUSE STUDY THE REPORT, PUBLISHED LAST YEAR, SAID THAT LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF THE ENCOUNTERS WERE NOT AS SERIOUS AS MANY BELIEVED.." Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) 13 Jul. 1999, SF, NATIONAL: A11. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
DESPITE STIR, SEX-ABUSE STUDY WON'T BE REVIEWED SOME SAW THE WORK AS PRO-PEDOPHILIA. A GROUP ASKED TO REVIEW IT SAID IT COULD FIND NO REASON TO. Burling, Stacey. "DESPITE STIR, SEX-ABUSE STUDY WON'T BE REVIEWED SOME SAW THE WORK AS PRO-PEDOPHILIA. A GROUP ASKED TO REVIEW IT SAID IT COULD FIND NO REASON TO.." Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) 17 Nov. 1999, SF, NATIONAL: A20. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Object to lowering age of consent [Last Name], [First Name]. "Object to lowering age of consent." Reporter, The (Lansdale, PA) 8 Jun. 2002, News: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Sex, age, consent and the courts Staff Writer, MATT PACENZA. "Sex, age, consent and the courts." Times Union, The (Albany, NY) 7 Aug. 2005, 3, Main: A1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Life's journey is a myth-busting affair - PSYCHOLOGY Duffy, Michael. "Life's journey is a myth-busting affair - PSYCHOLOGY." Sydney Morning Herald, The (Australia) 13 Mar. 2010, First, Spectrum: 12. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
AROUND TOWN [Last Name], [First Name]. "AROUND TOWN." Sun, The: Lisle (IL) 9 Jun. 2006, AROUND TOWN: 9. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
A Question of Resilience Times, New York. "A Question of Resilience." Ocala Star-Banner (FL) 30 Apr. 2006,: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005 Abrams, Dan. "THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005." MSNBC 15 Dec. 2005, News, International: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012. (part 1)
THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005 Abrams, Dan. "THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005." MSNBC 15 Dec. 2005, News, International: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012. (part 2)
Professors' book on homosexuality will be published [Last Name], [First Name]. "Professors' book on homosexuality will be published." Chronicle Herald, The (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) 14 Oct. 2005, Nova Scotia: B7. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
American publisher kills Acadia profs' tome on history of gay sex [Last Name], [First Name]. "American publisher kills Acadia profs' tome on history of gay sex." Chronicle Herald, The (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) 1 Oct. 2005, Front: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
The Trauma Society - I. II. III. IV. V. Satel, Sally. "The Trauma Society - I. II. III. IV. V.." New Republic, The 19 May, 2003, Books & The Arts: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Why we’re still in the dark about sex The Hartford Courant, GARRET CONDON. "Why we’re still in the dark about sex." Repository, The (Canton, OH) 8 Oct. 2002, Lifestyle: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
STUDIES PUSH CHANGE IN SOCIETY'S VIEW OF PEDOPHILIA O'KEEFE, MARK. "STUDIES PUSH CHANGE IN SOCIETY'S VIEW OF PEDOPHILIA." St. Paul Pioneer Press (MN) 17 Jun. 2002, City, EXPRESS: F6. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Internet Child Porn: DARK IMAGES; Obsessed viewers defy categorization Kita, Walter. "Internet Child Porn: DARK IMAGES; Obsessed viewers defy categorization." New Haven Register (CT) 5 May, 2002, Main News: a1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Promoting pedophilia - Attempts to legitimize adult-child sex on rise McCain, Robert Stacy. "Promoting pedophilia - Attempts to legitimize adult-child sex on rise." The Washington Times 19 Apr. 2002, NATION CULTURE, ET CETERA: A02. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Professor's views on pedophilia draw fire - UMKC faculty member's writings suggest not all sex with children is 'evil. ' [Last Name], [First Name]. "Professor's views on pedophilia draw fire - UMKC faculty member's writings suggest not all sex with children is 'evil. '." Columbia Daily Tribune (MO) 1 Apr. 2002,: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
UMKC scholar's views on pedophilia rile many FRANEY, LYNN. "UMKC scholar's views on pedophilia rile many." Kansas City Star, The (MO) 1 Apr. 2002, METROPOLITAN, METRO: B1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Group drops plans for review of controversial child sex-abuse study Burling, Stacey. "Group drops plans for review of controversial child sex-abuse study." The Dallas Morning News 3 Dec. 1999, THIRD, NEWS: 51A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Psychologists abandon child sex-abuse study Cite 'politicization' Knight Ridder Newspapers, Stacey Burling. "Psychologists abandon child sex-abuse study Cite 'politicization'." Charleston Gazette (WV) 28 Nov. 1999,: P11D. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
K6740 BC-MED-SEXABUSE 11-17 072 [Last Name], [First Name]. "K6740 BC-MED-SEXABUSE 11-17 072." Hawk Eye, The (Burlington, IA) 21 Nov. 1999, National: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Group drops plans for review of child sex-abuse study BURLING, STACEY. "Group drops plans for review of child sex-abuse study." Milwaukee Journal Sentinel 21 Nov. 1999, Early, A News: 14. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
APA [Last Name], [First Name]. "APA." Hawk Eye, The (Burlington, IA) 16 Nov. 1999, Commentary: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
MENTAL HEALTH STUDIES RILE CONSERVATIVES SCRIPPS HOWARD, JOAN LOWY. "MENTAL HEALTH STUDIES RILE CONSERVATIVES." Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH) 21 Aug. 1999, FINAL / ALL, RELIGION: 3F. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Battle over values heats up News Service, Scripps Howard. "Battle over values heats up." The Cincinnati Post 19 Aug. 1999, Final, News: 6A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
CHRISTIAN RIGHT'S HACKLES RAISED BY SEX STUDIES LOWY, JOAN. "CHRISTIAN RIGHT'S HACKLES RAISED BY SEX STUDIES." Scripps Howard News Service 18 Aug. 1999, Scripps Howard News ServiceNational/Health Science Technology: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Controversies cloud APA convention - Premier psychological body's reports on child abuse still draw criticism Duin, Julia. "Controversies cloud APA convention - Premier psychological body's reports on child abuse still draw criticism." The Washington Times 12 Aug. 1999, 2, A CULTURE, ET CETERA: A2. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
MISGUIDED UPROAR OVER SEXUAL ABUSE STUDY MUDDIES WATERS TAVRIS, CAROL. "MISGUIDED UPROAR OVER SEXUAL ABUSE STUDY MUDDIES WATERS." Sun-Sentinel 23 Jul. 1999, Broward Metro, EDITORIAL: 23A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Advocates for the good win with time, effort Wade F. Horn, Dr.. "Advocates for the good win with time, effort." The Washington Times 29 Jun. 1999, 2, E FAMILY TIMES FATHERLY ADVICE: E2. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Legitimizing Pedophilia Opens Door to Predators LaRue, Jan. "Legitimizing Pedophilia Opens Door to Predators." The Washington Times 14 Jun. 1999, Vol. 15, No. 22, FAIR COMMENT: 28. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Child sex abuse report draws fire New York Times Service, Erica Goode. "Child sex abuse report draws fire." Charleston Gazette (WV) 13 Jun. 1999,: P16A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Child sex abuse finds a defender Byrne, Dennis. "Child sex abuse finds a defender." Chicago Sun-Times 13 Jun. 1999, LATE SPORTS FINAL, EDITORIAL: 33. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Report brings flurry of criticismReport on child sex abuse trivializes its effects, critics claimBy ERICA GOODE [Last Name], [First Name]. "Report brings flurry of criticismReport on child sex abuse trivializes its effects, critics claimBy ERICA GOODE." Salina Journal, The (KS) 13 Jun. 1999, News: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Outrage over study forces retreat on research [Last Name], [First Name]. "Outrage over study forces retreat on research." Hutchinson News, The (KS) 11 Jun. 1999,: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
APA buckles under criticism MYERS, JIM. "APA buckles under criticism." Tulsa World 11 Jun. 1999, Final Home Edition, NEWS: 8. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Science falls to advocacy Cobb, Dan. "Science falls to advocacy." Victoria Advocate, The (TX) 11 Jun. 1999,: 10A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
AMERICA STILL IN THE DARK ABOUT SEX - POLITICAL AGENDAS CRIMP RESEARCH INTO BEHAVIOR CONDON, GARRET. "AMERICA STILL IN THE DARK ABOUT SEX - POLITICAL AGENDAS CRIMP RESEARCH INTO BEHAVIOR." Hartford Courant, The (CT) 30 May, 2002, 7 SPORTS FINAL, MAIN: A1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
How low will we go? Tolerance of pedophilia looms as next step in descent Thomas, Cal. "How low will we go? Tolerance of pedophilia looms as next step in descent." Sun, The (Baltimore, MD) 26 Nov. 2003, FINAL, EDITORIAL: 17A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
How low will we go? Tolerance of pedophilia looms as next step in descent Thomas, Cal. "How low will we go? Tolerance of pedophilia looms as next step in descent." Sun, The (Baltimore, MD) 26 Nov. 2003, FINAL, EDITORIAL: 17A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
AMERICA STILL IN THE DARK ABOUT SEX - POLITICAL AGENDAS CRIMP RESEARCH INTO BEHAVIOR CONDON, GARRET. "AMERICA STILL IN THE DARK ABOUT SEX - POLITICAL AGENDAS CRIMP RESEARCH INTO BEHAVIOR." Hartford Courant, The (CT) 30 May, 2002, 7 SPORTS FINAL, MAIN: A1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Report brings flurry of criticismReport on child sex abuse trivializes its effects, critics claimBy ERICA GOODE [Last Name], [First Name]. "Report brings flurry of criticismReport on child sex abuse trivializes its effects, critics claimBy ERICA GOODE." Salina Journal, The (KS) 13 Jun. 1999, News: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Legitimizing Pedophilia Opens Door to Predators LaRue, Jan. "Legitimizing Pedophilia Opens Door to Predators." The Washington Times 14 Jun. 1999, Vol. 15, No. 22, FAIR COMMENT: 28. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Advocates for the good win with time, effort Wade F. Horn, Dr.. "Advocates for the good win with time, effort." The Washington Times 29 Jun. 1999, 2, E FAMILY TIMES FATHERLY ADVICE: E2. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
MISGUIDED UPROAR OVER SEXUAL ABUSE STUDY MUDDIES WATERS TAVRIS, CAROL. "MISGUIDED UPROAR OVER SEXUAL ABUSE STUDY MUDDIES WATERS." Sun-Sentinel 23 Jul. 1999, Broward Metro, EDITORIAL: 23A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Controversies cloud APA convention - Premier psychological body's reports on child abuse still draw criticism Duin, Julia. "Controversies cloud APA convention - Premier psychological body's reports on child abuse still draw criticism." The Washington Times 12 Aug. 1999, 2, A CULTURE, ET CETERA: A2. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
CHRISTIAN RIGHT'S HACKLES RAISED BY SEX STUDIES LOWY, JOAN. "CHRISTIAN RIGHT'S HACKLES RAISED BY SEX STUDIES." Scripps Howard News Service 18 Aug. 1999, Scripps Howard News ServiceNational/Health Science Technology: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Battle over values heats up News Service, Scripps Howard. "Battle over values heats up." The Cincinnati Post 19 Aug. 1999, Final, News: 6A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
MENTAL HEALTH STUDIES RILE CONSERVATIVES SCRIPPS HOWARD, JOAN LOWY. "MENTAL HEALTH STUDIES RILE CONSERVATIVES." Plain Dealer, The (Cleveland, OH) 21 Aug. 1999, FINAL / ALL, RELIGION: 3F. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
APA [Last Name], [First Name]. "APA." Hawk Eye, The (Burlington, IA) 16 Nov. 1999, Commentary: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Group drops plans for review of child sex-abuse study BURLING, STACEY. "Group drops plans for review of child sex-abuse study." Milwaukee Journal Sentinel 21 Nov. 1999, Early, A News: 14. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
K6740 BC-MED-SEXABUSE 11-17 072 [Last Name], [First Name]. "K6740 BC-MED-SEXABUSE 11-17 072." Hawk Eye, The (Burlington, IA) 21 Nov. 1999, National: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Psychologists abandon child sex-abuse study Cite 'politicization' Knight Ridder Newspapers, Stacey Burling."Psychologists abandon child sex-abuse study Cite 'politicization'." Charleston Gazette (WV) 28 Nov. 1999,: P11D. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Group drops plans for review of controversial child sex-abuse study Burling, Stacey. "Group drops plans for review of controversial child sex-abuse study." The Dallas Morning News 3 Dec. 1999, THIRD, NEWS: 51A. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
UMKC scholar's views on pedophilia rile many FRANEY, LYNN. "UMKC scholar's views on pedophilia rile many." Kansas City Star, The (MO) 1 Apr. 2002, METROPOLITAN, METRO: B1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Professor's views on pedophilia draw fire - UMKC faculty member's writings suggest not all sex with children is 'evil. ' [Last Name], [First Name]. "Professor's views on pedophilia draw fire - UMKC faculty member's writings suggest not all sex with children is 'evil. '." Columbia Daily Tribune (MO) 1 Apr. 2002,: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Promoting pedophilia - Attempts to legitimize adult-child sex on rise McCain, Robert Stacy. "Promoting pedophilia - Attempts to legitimize adult-child sex on rise." The Washington Times 19 Apr. 2002, NATION CULTURE, ET CETERA: A02. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Internet Child Porn: DARK IMAGES; Obsessed viewers defy categorization Kita, Walter. "Internet Child Porn: DARK IMAGES; Obsessed viewers defy categorization." New Haven Register (CT) 5 May, 2002, Main News: a1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
STUDIES PUSH CHANGE IN SOCIETY'S VIEW OF PEDOPHILIA O'KEEFE, MARK. "STUDIES PUSH CHANGE IN SOCIETY'S VIEW OF PEDOPHILIA." St. Paul Pioneer Press (MN) 17 Jun. 2002, City, EXPRESS: F6. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Why we’re still in the dark about sex The Hartford Courant, GARRET CONDON. "Why we’re still in the dark about sex." Repository, The (Canton, OH) 8 Oct. 2002, Lifestyle: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
The Trauma Society - I. II. III. IV. V. Satel, Sally. "The Trauma Society - I. II. III. IV. V.." New Republic, The 19 May, 2003, Books & The Arts: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
American publisher kills Acadia profs' tome on history of gay sex [Last Name], [First Name]. "American publisher kills Acadia profs' tome on history of gay sex." Chronicle Herald, The (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) 1 Oct. 2005, Front: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Professors' book on homosexuality will be published [Last Name], [First Name]. "Professors' book on homosexuality will be published." Chronicle Herald, The (Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) 14 Oct. 2005, Nova Scotia: B7. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005 Abrams, Dan. "THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005." MSNBC 15 Dec. 2005, News, International: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005 Abrams, Dan. "THE ABRAMS REPORT For December 15, 2005." MSNBC 15 Dec. 2005, News, International: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
A Question of Resilience Times, New York. "A Question of Resilience." Ocala Star-Banner (FL) 30 Apr. 2006,: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
AROUND TOWN [Last Name], [First Name]. "AROUND TOWN." Sun, The: Lisle (IL) 9 Jun. 2006, AROUND TOWN: 9. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Giordano: Psychiatrists driving him mad Giordano, Dom. "Giordano: Psychiatrists driving him mad." News Gleaner (Philadelphia, PA) 25 Jun. 2003, News: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
HOUSE DECRIES A CHILD-SEXUAL-ABUSE STUDY THE REPORT, PUBLISHED LAST YEAR, SAID THAT LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF THE ENCOUNTERS WERE NOT AS SERIOUS AS MANY BELIEVED. Burling, Stacey. "HOUSE DECRIES A CHILD-SEXUAL-ABUSE STUDY THE REPORT, PUBLISHED LAST YEAR, SAID THAT LONG-TERM EFFECTS OF THE ENCOUNTERS WERE NOT AS SERIOUS AS MANY BELIEVED.." Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) 13 Jul. 1999, SF, NATIONAL: A11. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
DESPITE STIR, SEX-ABUSE STUDY WON'T BE REVIEWED SOME SAW THE WORK AS PRO-PEDOPHILIA. A GROUP ASKED TO REVIEW IT SAID IT COULD FIND NO REASON TO. Burling, Stacey. "DESPITE STIR, SEX-ABUSE STUDY WON'T BE REVIEWED SOME SAW THE WORK AS PRO-PEDOPHILIA. A GROUP ASKED TO REVIEW IT SAID IT COULD FIND NO REASON TO.." Philadelphia Inquirer, The (PA) 17 Nov. 1999, SF, NATIONAL: A20. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Object to lowering age of consent [Last Name], [First Name]. "Object to lowering age of consent." Reporter, The (Lansdale, PA) 8 Jun. 2002, News: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Sex, age, consent and the courts Staff Writer, MATT PACENZA. "Sex, age, consent and the courts." Times Union, The (Albany, NY) 7 Aug. 2005, 3, Main: A1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Psychology group regrets publishing pedophilia report - Practice not always harmful, article said Duin, Julia. "Psychology group regrets publishing pedophilia report - Practice not always harmful, article said." The Washington Times 10 Jun. 1999, 2, A NATION: A10. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Outrage over study forces retreat on research [Last Name], [First Name]. "Outrage over study forces retreat on research." Associated Press Archive 10 Jun. 1999,: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Coburn condemns psychological study MYERS, JIM. "Coburn condemns psychological study." Tulsa World 2 Jun. 1999, Final Home Edition, NEWS: 11. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Thank Heaven for Little Boys Plotz, David. "Thank Heaven for Little Boys." Slate (USA) 28 May, 1999, strange bedfellow: NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Hill joins pedophilia-study critics - Lawmakers urge professional journal to disavow report Duin, Julia. "Hill joins pedophilia-study critics - Lawmakers urge professional journal to disavow report." The Washington Times 13 May, 1999, 2, A NATION: A4. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Baffling conclusions about child sex abuse Wade F. Horn, Dr.. "Baffling conclusions about child sex abuse." The Washington Times 20 Apr. 1999, 2, E FAMILY TIMES FATHERLY ADVICE: E2. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Pedophilia made to look benign Laura Schlessinger, Dr.. "Pedophilia made to look benign." The Washington Times 20 Apr. 1999, 2, E FAMILY TIMES TALKING WITH DR. LAURA: E1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
PEDOPHILIA STUDY IS 'JUNK SCIENCE' SCHLESSINGER, DR. LAURA. "PEDOPHILIA STUDY IS 'JUNK SCIENCE'." Post-Tribune (IN) 18 Apr. 1999, ALL, LIFESTYLE: D7. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Sexual-abuse study disgusts concerned dad Schlessinger, Dr. Laura. "Sexual-abuse study disgusts concerned dad." The Dallas Morning News 15 Apr. 1999, THIRD, TODAY: 8C. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Apparition of Lolita nation? Saunders, Debra. "Apparition of Lolita nation?." The Washington Times 28 Mar. 1999, 2, B COMMENTARY: B4. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Lolita Nation SAUNDERS, DEBRA J.. "Lolita Nation." THE SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE 28 Mar. 1999, SUNDAY, EDITORIAL: 7. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
Critics assail study affirming pedophilia - Reaction flares on Internet, talk radio Duin, Julia. "Critics assail study affirming pedophilia - Reaction flares on Internet, talk radio." The Washington Times 23 Mar. 1999, 2, A: A1. NewsBank. Web. 26 Jan. 2012.
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-- Radvo ( talk) 16:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
A symposium, entitled De Andere Kant van de Medaille. Over de Vraag: Is Pedofilie Misbruik van Kinderen? (The Other Side of the Coin. About the Question: Is Pedophilia Child Abuse?) was held in Rotterdam on December 18, 1998: an academic paper, written by Bruce Rind, Robert Bauserman, and Philip Tromovitch, was read in English at this conference; the paper reported on the two meta-analyses and was titled An Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Based on Nonclinical Samples
The Pauluskerk (St. Paul's Church) is a parish of the Netherlands Reformed Church, located in Rotterdam. For twenty years, the Church, in association with the interdenominational Foundation for Church Social Work, and its pastor the Rev. Hans Visser] advocated for, and spiritually ministered to, drug addicts, the homeless, refugees, illegal aliens, transvestites, transsexuals, and adults attracted to minors. A biography was written about Rev. Visser and his charitable work with these outcasts, and he has himself written at least 19 books, of which 10 have world catolog numbers. The Pastor states in his church's brochure that, just as the church does not advocate drug use, but attempts "to eliminate a burden on drug users, " the church does not advocate sexual acts between adults and minors, and certainly not sexual abuse, but "seeks to nuance the present hysterical persecution of pedophiles as a sexual minority, and begin a dialogue with both them and society about what is truly abusive behavior, and how pedophile sexuality can be exercised responsibly and ethically." (Reference source: Misunderstood Intimacy: A Pastoral Approach to Pedophilia, Rotterdam: Stichting voor Kerkelijk Sociale Arbeid, 1999, p. 4).
Stephanie Dallam (2002) (Pg 129) reported that the Rev. Hans Visser edited a book with the same name as the conference, and the author devoted a section of the book to describing the results of Rind et al.'s (1998) research. For roughly 15 years, from the late 1980's until about 2004 (needs research to confirm dates), the legal age of consent in the Netherlands was 12 years of age. -- Radvo ( talk) 21:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)— Radvo ( talk) 03:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
"In the behavioral sciences, modern works may make passing reference to the study, but largely ignore its more controversial conclusions. [33] "
This reference seems to lead to a book, usually a page number is proper when using books. Can someone give the page number and preferable a quite of the text used to support the statement in the article. The reason I wonder is because this does seem to clash a bit with reality so it would be good to see that this really holds up to scrutiny. -- Juice Leskinen ( talk) 00:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
If anyone feels strongly about keeping the quoted text, please let me know because I aim to remove it fairly soon unless someone can explain exactly how the source relates to the text. Juice Leskinen ( talk) 18:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC) I own that book. I do not have it with me at this moment, but I can get it later today. It's a general psychology book (which was chosen because it offers the most basic views of the field in general) and contains a chapter section on abuse. All I remember is the Rind study is cited once, for a sentence that is something to do with coercion increasing the severity of later mental health issues. Will report back later. Legitimus ( talk) 19:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
717 Rind, B; Tromovitch P, Bauserman R (1998). "A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples". Psychological Bulletin 124 (1): 22–53
326 McNally, RJ (2003). "Progress and controversy in the study of posttraumatic stress disorder" (PDF). Annual Review of Psychology 54: 229–252.
277 Holmes, WC; Slap GB (1999). "Sexual abuse of boys: definition, prevalence, correlates, sequelae, and management". Journal of the American Medical Association 280
195 Rind, B; Tromovitch P (1997). "A meta-analytic review of findings from national samples on psychological correlates of child sexual abuse". The Journal of Sex Research34 (3): 237–255.
92 Salter, A (2003). Predators: pedophiles, rapists, and other sex offenders: who they are, how they operate, and how we can protect ourselves and our children. New York: Basic Books
87 Lilienfeld, SO (2002). "When Worlds Collide: Social Science, Politics and the Rind et al. (1998) Child Abuse Meta-Analysis" (PDF). The American Psychologist 57 (3): 177–187. PMID 11905116
80 Dallam, SJ; et al. (2001). "The effects of child sexual abuse: Comment on Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman (1998)" (PDF). Psychological bulletin 127 (6): 715–33
77 Ondersma SJ et al. (November 2001). "Sex with children is abuse: Comment on Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman (1998)"] (PDF). Psychol Bull 127 (6): 707–14.
42 Rind, B; Bauserman R; Tromovitch P (2001). "The condemned meta-analysis on child sexual abuse; Good science and long-overdue skepticism". Skeptical Inquirer: 68–72.
42 Rind, B; Tromovitch P; Bauserman R (2001). "The validity and appropriateness of methods, analyses, and conclusions in Rind et al. (1998): A rebuttal of victimological critique f Psychological Bulletin 127
32 Senn, TE; Carey, MP; Vanable, PA; Coury-Doniger, P; Urban, M (Oct 2007). "Characteristics of Sexual Abuse in Childhood and Adolescence Influence Sexual Risk Behavior in Adulthood". Arch Sex Behav 36 (5)
31 Spiegel, J (2003). Sexual Abuse of Males: The Sam Model of Theory and Practice. Routledge. pp. 9. ISBN 1560324031
31 Rind, B; Tromovitch P; Bauserman R (2000). "Condemnation of a scientific article: A chronology and refutation of the attacks and a discussion of threats to the integrit. Sexuality and Culture 4 (2): 1–62.
21 Garrison, E. G.; Kobor, P. C. (2002). "Weathering a political storm. A contextual perspective on a psychological research controversy". The American psychologist 57 (3): 165–175
13 Dallam, SJ (2001). "Science or Propaganda? An Examination of Rind, Tromovitch and Bauserman". Journal of Child Sexual Abuse ( Haworth Press) 9 (3/4): 109–134.
10 Baird, B. N. (2002). "Politics, operant conditioning, Galileo, and the American Psychological Association's response to Rind et al. (1998)". The American psychologist 57 (3): 189–19
9 Spiegel, D. (2000). "Suffer the children: Long-term effects of sexual abuse". Society 37 (4): 18–12. doi: doi: 10.1007%2FBF02912286
8 Tavris, C. (2000). "The uproar over sexual abuse research and its findings". Society 37 (4): 15–17. doi: doi: 10.1007%2FBF02912285
5 Tice, PP; Whittenburg JA, Baker G, Lemmey DE. (2000). "The real controversy about child sexual abuse research: Contradictory findings and critical issues not
5 Whitfield CL; Silberg JL; Fink PJ. Misinformation concerning child sexual abuse and adult survivors.
5 Whittenburg, JA; Tice PP; Baker G; Lemmey DE (2000). "A critical appraisal of the 1998 meta-analytic review of child sexual abuse outcomes reported by Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman". Journal of Child S
2 Rind, B (2006). "Meta Analysis, Moral Panic, Congressional Condemnation, and Science: A Personal Journey". Rosnow RL; Hantula DA. Advances in social & organizational psychology: a tribute to Ralph Rosnow
0 Dallam In Whitfield CL; Silberg JL; Fink PJ. Misinformation concerning child sexual abuse and adult survivors. Routledge
0 Ulrich, Heather (June 9, 2007). "Examining the variability in the long term adjustment of child sexual abuse victims" (PDF). University of Montana
no listing on Google Advance scholar: Wood, Samuel H.; Wood, Ellen Meiksins; Boyd, Denise (2008). The world of psychology. Boston, Mass.: Pearson/Allyn and Bacon
no listing on Google Advance scholar: Ulrich, Heather; Randolph Mickey, Acheson Shawn (2005-06). "Child Sexual Abuse: A Replication of the Meta-analytic Examination of Child Sexual Abuse by Rind, Tromo— Radvo ( talk) 00:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
It could be that the scholarly community and the public interested in this topic do not know of Heather Ulrich et al.'s replication of Rind et al. (1998). Even Google Scholar doesn't know about Ulrich, though it does report on other articles in The SRMHP. Wikipedia, with its larger public readership, would provide a useful service to science and to the public by immediately spreading the information about Ulrich's replication and creating interest in it. There is currently one sentence at the end of the Lead that has formatting that makes that sentence about Ulrich's replication invisible to the public. We would like to know if editors would object if we make that sentence now visible. User Legisimus wants to read Ulrich et al. first, we'll wait for her. What about the opinion of User WLU who placed the formating around the sentence, and what is the opinion about this suggestion among other editors?
The relatively high scholarly interest above in Holmes and Slap's article, entitled "Sexual abuse of boys: definition, prevalence, correlates, sequelae, and management" might be especially noted. The scholarly community, and the public, will be well served if we attend somewhat more to the sexual abuse of boys in our Wikipedia article. What do Rind et al., and their critics, and the controversy have to offer to the public and scientific community, on this matter of scholarly interest? There is such relevant information in both the scholarly articles, and in the other secondary media resources that document the controversy, if editors here were willing to focus and study these scholarly and other secondary sources for that specific information, too. Radvo ( talk) 16:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)— Radvo ( talk) 23:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
“ | The analysis and conclusions by Rind et al. (1998) proved to be extremely controversial. Pedophilia advocacy groups used the study to support their view that sexual encounters between children and adults are not detrimental and therefore should be legal. | ” |
“ | The initial meta-analysis of the 18 psychological correlates yielded very similar results in both metaanalyses. Both studies indicated all correlates to be significant except for locus of control. However, the current meta-analysis found that self-esteem was not a significant correlate. After correcting for the homogeneity of the variance, we found that only six of the correlates remained significant. This finding differs from Rind et al.'s (1998) findings as a result of differing methods used to correct for heterogeneous variances....Therefore, Rind et al.'s (1998) finding that 17 of the 18 psychological correlates were significantly associated with child sexual abuse was not supported in the current meta-analysis. | ” |
“ | However, the current meta-analysis found that the psychological correlates that were reported as a function of family factors that could be computed were statistically significant. | ” |
“ | Some individuals may argue that Rind et al.'s (1998) analysis and this reexamination provide support for those who question or deny that child sexual abuse can sometimes be associated with severe psychological harm. The authors of the current research would hesitate to support such a general statement. Instead, our results, and the results of the Rind et al. meta-analysis, can be interpreted as providing a hopeful and positive message to therapists, parents, and children. Child sexual abuse does not necessarily lead to long-term harm. The finding that there is a possibility of a positive prognosis for future adjustment in child sexual abuse victims can play an integral part in therapy. We suggest that future research focus on the potential moderating variables (i. e., family environment characteristics, therapeutic interventions, or possible genetic predispositions) that enable certain individuals to be resilient in the face of sexual abuse. | ” |
We ask the question: "How can this controversial article, its results, the views of its 3 authors, best be described?" It is not the editors' job to edit Wikipedia so that it reflects our own, or the majority, view and then defend those edits against all comers. This article, about the controversial Rind Report, will ideally describe the study, the results, and the 3 authors' views, no matter how misguided or repugnant they are to some readers.
Because this topic is controversial and likely to be WP: CHALLENGED, an editor will remove material that is WP: UNSOURCED. Opinions must be WP:SUBSTANTIATED And editors are limited in the extent they may present their own point of view. Wikipedia pages may not be used for any form of advocacy.
The earlier contested sentence reads, in part:
What did Rind et al. (1998) conclude? This is settled by quoting, or paraphrasing, as accurately and as fairly as possible, what Dr. Rind, Dr. Tromovitch, and Dr. Bauserman concluded in Rind et al. (1998). Those who have not read the study may not insert their own words. They will be challenged.
Take care to WP: NOTADVOCATE a particular view as the view of the authors if it is not found in the source.
Here is the citation: Rind, B; Tromovitch P, Bauserman R (1998). " A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples". Psychological Bulletin 124 (1): 22–53. doi: doi: 10.1037%2F0033-2909.124.1.22. PMID 9670820. Link of the full text of the study..
A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples. Psychological Bulletin 124 (1): 22–53. doi: doi: 10.1037%2F0033-2909.124.1.22. PMID 9670820.
"Morally repugnant" is not substantiated in Rind et al. (1998), but it is easy to substantiate that majority viewpoint with reference to commonly accepted reference texts. Instead of edit waring, does anyone have the beginnings of a proposal for including this idea of "morally repugnant"? Just don't attribute them to Rind, Bauserman, or Tromovitch; they wrote the source and they didn't use the term. That "morally repugnant" has to be attributed to another secondary source.
Here are, IMHO, three relevant quotes from Rind et al. (1998).
Quote from Page 47, the last page.
Two quotes from page 45:
End
(Aside #1)
I would like include somehow in the main article, Rind et al's, Kilpatrick's, Money's & Weinrich's scientific definition "abuse." See the middle quote above. We accept how "abuse" is defined morally and in the law. How to define "abuse" for the scientists who measure its effects and want to predict its effects? By definition, the scientist cannot measure moral or spiritual harm, so if CSA is defined only morally or legally, it has no predictive value. The scientist has to come up with a definition that he/she can measure.
(Aside #2)
-- Something different --
Males and females (on average) view CSA differently.
Quote form Page 43
What is your point? Do you want to remove the sentence "The authors Rind et al. (1998) concluded that... this does not mean it is not wrong or morally repugnant behavior"? That's reasonable I suppose. Herostratus ( talk) 02:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, I'd be leery of relying too much on interpreting the primary source. Is there a not source such a "John Erudite Neutralreporter noted that Rind had said such-and-such" or something? That'd be better. (Granted, this applies also to extracting from the Congressional Motion, where we were on "opposite sides" of the issue, so I dunno. But we do want to be real careful re interpreting primary sources.) Herostratus ( talk) 02:34, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, Radvo, you added a load of claims in the following edit: [5] most of which are not supported by the sources we have now. My cleaning of that section fixed that problem. You now recreated it. So, feel free to either clean it up again, and/or add sources that correspond to the claims you have made.
Thanks. Juice Leskinen 20:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
"Derogatory comments about another contributor may be removed by any editor." No personal attacks Juice Leskinen 21:58, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Hi 194. Welcome to Rind et al. controversy. Thanks for all the compliments above. You can be very gracious and complimentary, and it's nice to read that part of you that likes to complment, too. Haven't we met here before? I have a lot of demands on my time just now, so no long sceed now, but I want to at least acknowledge that I have read all of the above. When I was a kid I used to get in verbal spats like that. This makes me feel like a kid again. I may respond in a bit childish way here. I hope this does not offend anyone.
Juice took some words about "CSA causing harm" out of the article. I argued with him that its removal was a mistake. At first, he added the words to the sentence "societal belief" and claimed that Ondersma was the source. That was great. Then he thought about it some more, and then he put those words about "CSA causing harm" back in. He did that himself because he wanted to be responsive and collaborative. You may not have seen that, because once he put those words about "harm" back in, I felt he was giving me "permission" to immediately elaborated on what he wrote—before you probably even saw it. (Now I am on the carpet with him for going too far. I'll find some sources or delete some text to respond to his complaint tomorrow.) Are you happy with how things in the edit turned out for now? If you are, we couldn't have done it without Juice's expert help. We had to go thru that process. That's the genius of Wikipedia. Would you change or improve the wording still more somehow in that sentence? Are you feeling good that the majority view is getting some coverage here, too? Or if it's not yet perfect, can we work together to improve that sentence some more? Maybe Juice will even help us, if we take his views into consideration and we ask him in a nice way. We would be honored is you would choose to collaborate with us in making a great article. You've lurked enough. That shows your interest in what is going on here. We have work to do... Use your talents to help us as you can. Give this a try.
Juice: You obviously know the scholarly literature. I want you to do what you have to do so you stick around. There is a little flag on your signature; you may be especially watched. You're the kid with the eyeglasses on this board who does the homework. We need you to make this article "good." But if I can give you a bit of unsolicited advise: when you have having a fight with someone, the person who is cussing you out, may not be too receptive to learning some of the finer points of the scholarly literature from you at that time. Because of the special scrutiny you are being given, it might be best to just walk away. But I read what you wrote, and I thought that stuff you were writing was very insightful! I understand what you were saying, and I think I might agree with you. So: Help me; teach me. I will try to make a good student for you. Here's a crazy idea. Since you know the literature, suppose you do User:194 a favor. Give him/her a couple of juicy facts and studies from the literature that User:194 wants to hear. There are some decent studies that claim harm; but, okay already, they aren't your favorites. Share some of that scholarly information with him/her here. Imagine that Wikipedia has just retained you at $1,000. per hour to make User:194's case on this board. For that kind of money, with your mastery of the literature, you could come up with lots of studies and arguments and make a great case for him/her. Use your skills and mastery of the literature to help to make an excellent brief. Defense attorneys do this for their clients all the time. You can do this because you know a lot, and importantly you probably know the weaknesses of your own case, too. If you build User:194's trust, if you build a lot of political capital on this board, User:194 might, in time, get to tolerate you—because you are useful in getting User:194's voice heard, When you took words out of the article, I speculate she may have felt you were silencing her voice. She wasn't going to have that. She made her voice very clearly known. So give her a voice in the article, and he/she may find you kind of useful. And she won't have to cuss you out to get a rise out of you. In time, he/she might even return the favor, he/she might let you know how you can more effectively make your case, what places in the argument you may not go, and how to survive here, too.
Here's a minor research study I saw today; it piqued my interest and mild amusement: Girls who are sexually abused are 25% more likely to carry weapons as adolescents. The researcher actually claimed there is a direct causal effect. See Annie Oakley's girls. I figure those adolescent are damn sure, now that they are bigger and teen, they are not going to let anyone abuse them again! Now that's a form of resilience and strong locus of control we can appreciate in such a girl. The weapon gives the feeling that no one will take advantage of her again. That's a kind of comfort such a girl may need. Both of you: how many kids are harmed by sexual abuse is a matter of fact, not to be settled by a shouting match. Even one child who is harmed by child rape (or anything else) is one child too many! Children need our love and our protection. And "it takes a village to raise a child", and we can all do our part to make the community and the world safer and happier for children. We don't want to write anything in the main article that puts kids in danger of harm. I like to think that facts are our friends, and it's wrong to shoot the messenger who brings us facts that we cannot tolerate! Since you guys broke some rules, I figured I would follow this rule WP: IGNORE writing this. But I meant well. When you guys are finished quarreling, I'll be ready to get back to the work of collaboratively making this article better. Specific suggestions on how to improve that sentence, and how to get out of the hot seat with Juice, are especially welcome Let's give more effort to getting along and working collaboratively together... -- Radvo ( talk) 03:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)