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I want to bring the dead external web-links in the [ 'Usage outside of scholarly discussion' Section] to the attention of a Wikipedia administrator within the next week, unless this matter can reach some strong consensus here on the TALK page. I am not so familiar with the rules and policies and how they are implemented, but eager to learn the rules and operate within them.
To the appropriate Wikipedia authority or Administrator:
I am a new editor, as of the beginning of December. I need an authoritative answer from an administrator (or similar). I asked about this on the TALK page, and I now raise this matter with an administrator.
In the section [ 'Usage outside of scholarly discussion' in Wikipedia's Rind et al. Controversy article], three websites are named; one link is active; two links are dead, one link should be upgraded to a different section of the website.
All four websites are active here, so editors may see the active links that might be placed into the article: [ NAMbLA] [ The RBT Files at Ipce], [ The Male Homosexual Attraction to Minors Information Center MHAMic] [ Everything you wanted to know about The Rind Controversy MHAMic] This last is a different section of the previous website; the latter deals only with the Rind et al controversy. If by posting these links here I have violated any rule or policy, please delete only the active links immediately.
The question I have is about the permissibility of making these web-links active in the article itself.
According to Dr. Dallam, a highly esteemed, anti-Rind advocate, often used as a reliable source to explain the controversy in this article, these websites were allegedly and inappropriately misusing Rind's scholarly article for political advantage, and these websites are identified in the Wikipedia article for verification purposes. The NAMbLA link in the article works thru another Wikipedia article; with just two clicks of the mouse, one is on the NAMbLA website. The other external links do not work in the article. Since these are links to the work of unknowns, they are NOT referred to in the article as reliable sources. The three links are named, so the Wikipedia reader can verify for him-herself the alleged misuse of the Rind scholarly article on these fringe and non-mainstream websites. The links are associated by Dr. Dallam with tiny fringe organizations that advocate age-of-consent reform. The web-links are external to, and heatedly controversial within, Wikipedia.
Here's my question that needs an authoritative answer: Assuming the consensus of editors of this article is to keep this section of the article as it is, would fixing these dead external links violate any Wikipedia rule, viz. regarding Copyright, using quality sources for verification, or the Wikipedia Policy on Child Protection? Or would active external links be too controversial, and therefore unwanted? I just what to know. If the consensus is to not make these links active, I will obviously have to yield to the consensus.
An alternative view of the editing might go like this: Naming and activating these links might be like placing active external links to variations of the Flat Earth Society, clearly a fringe group, within which nested web-sites are links to many articles from mainstream sources that are allegedly being cited "inappropriately" for the political purposes of the 'Belief in the Earth is Flat Revival'. The purpose of associating the study with favorable reviews and citations by variations of the Flat Earth Society is solely to discredit the study's authors, especially, as noted twice in the article, in court (i.e., with judges and juries). The Wikipedia article and the controversy are maybe saying: "The Rind et al. 1998 meta-analysis must be discredited and trashed because it is 'trumpeted' by the Flat Earth Society on its website."
The first Wikipedia paragraph in the 'Usage outside...' Section is IMHO a "guilt by association" fallacy, a kind of ad hominem attack on Rind et al., a claim that a former Wikipedia editor feels is necessary to repeat in Wikipeida's voice in this Wikipedia article to give the fallacious argument additional weight. The argument goes like this: The mathematical research produced by the Rind et al trio was reviewed or cited favorably on the website of these 3 despicable fringe groups. Therefore, the Wikipedia must also come, by implication, to guilt by association, that Rind et al (and Heather Ulrich et al.) must be morally wrong and despicable like those tiny fringe groups." I edited an alternative version of this section that may be mostly reinstated.
I am considering an alternative edit: The entire "Usage outside of scholarly discussion" section should be dropped from the Wikipedia article entirely. That may not reach consensus either. If the article is rewritten in a NPOV to avoid sullying the reputation of the esteemed Wikepedia with the ad hominem and "guilt by association" attack on Rind et al., and, by implication, on Heather Ulrich et al. (who did a replication of the calculations in 2005, and arrived at identical results) (all six authors are covered by relevant [ BLP policies]), then I want to know if the dead external links must remain inactive to comply with one or more Wikipedia rules or policies.
There is another aspect to this: I bookmarked [ Everything you wanted to know about The Rind Controversy MHAMic] on my personal page so I could easily find that link again, and was attacked for that, and all my contributions to this article were cherry picked out of the article by two anonymous editors. I have since removed that link from my user page, and have no intention of putting it back there. I speculate that its the source of the text, and the link to a controversial bibliography that is most protested. But I like the quality source links in the article. Radvo ( talk) 01:01, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
This Section was put together, by "cut and paste," to facilitate discussion. There is some material, in the previous TALK section, about TruthinWriting's proposals for the Introduction, his points (1), (2), (3) and (4). None of that is here. Truthinwriting had an idea to include more information about the samples; to simplify, none of the sample information has been pasted here either. This section focuses on Truthinwriting's proposals for his point (5), and the related discussion. Since there was so much extra material in the previous section, I cut and pasted only what I thought was relevant to discussing his point (5). All the original material is in the previous section, as previously posted. Maybe, some of you will find this shortened version helpful for making a decision about the wording for the adjustments to the Introduction. If any relevant material was accidentally omitted, I apologize in advance. If you want something additional included, please feel free to add or paste it below. I have put together a tentative composite of the entire Introduction (which Wikipedia calls Lead), with some small revisions throughout the entire text, at the end the paste below. The links do not work because of my cut and paste. Radvo
[Start of Paste ********************* This first part is from Truthinwriting]
numerous age of consent reform organizations / attorney usage): ...I am now wondering if a complete rewrite with that basic info included might be a better way to go vis-a-vis consensus among us? This is just off-the-top-of-my-head, but perhaps something like:
That wording probably needs work, but perhaps this way we can get away from some of the problems that have been being discussed.
Regarding (6: moving Ulrich replication higher into the Intro): I still think this is a good idea, but I am waiting for the dust to settle on (5) first. :-) Truthinwriting
As I wrote that quick possible replacement text, I realized I didn't have any sources for it. Perhaps that is a problem; if so, we are back to deletion as the way to go. Something like you wrote (Radvo?) above [far below] is fine too, with a little adjustment, but might be hard to source as well. Nevertheless, the controversy probably would not have occurred if people were not worried about some sort of changes occurring, hence there must be some sources somewhere. I'll keep my eyes open. Truthinwriting (talk) 07:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
The last sentence of the intro is currently presented with two sources. It currently reads:
This sentence strikes me as problematic in various ways. I have not read Spiegel's 2003 book (nor do I have a copy). Is anyone here familiar with it? I do have the other source as a word-searchable PDF (Ondersma et al. 2001), but it does not seem to mention anything about defense attorney usage.
Even if it is true that the Rind et al. paper was used in court cases, if that issue is to be raised on this Wikipedia page shouldn't it be balanced with more information and reasoning? After all, courts should use scientific evidence when it is available... [Joke deleted for brevity] [U]nless we know what those court cases were about, the current wording is potentially biasing or outright incorrect (e.g., you can not minimize harm when there is no harm). Further, the Rind et al. paper may have been used by prosecutors as well, since it provides information on when harm might occur and when it might not (hence only mentioning defense attorney usage seems unbalanced regarding something we probably have no reliable information about).
Additionally, I do not see a need for that particular sentence in the intro. Given that the intro reads fine without it, I suggest it be deleted since that will save a lot of work and contention for everyone. If something like the sentence should stay, perhaps a simple edit will make it less problematic. For example:
(6) The issue of moving a reference to the Ulrich replication study higher up into the page was also raised at one point. I don't know if that is critical or not, but I think it is a good idea and putting it at the end of the intro makes sense to me. [snip]
a new final paragraph of the intro might read something like:
5 I will need to do some additional research about the legal case part of it. Off the top of my head, the cases where this study were invoked are all in defense; I have never heard of it being brought up by the prosecution or plaintiff. Furthermore, the parts I recall about a few cases were pretty shameless. In Arizona v. Steward, Steward was a teacher who'd molested multiple boys as young as 5 years old. He was a predator. Rind et al was quoted during the sentencing phase as an attempt to gain leniency by claiming the harm was minimal. In Watson v. Roman Catholic Church, the expert witness attempted to use Rind as a basis for his statement that there is no association between sexual abuse and maladjustment. Obviously a gross misstatement of Rind, but the defense team did it anyway. These two cases demonstrate minimization in one, and denial of harm in the other. There was at least one other case that used Rind as a defense tactic, but I don't recall and will have to look for it. I don't have much to say on (6) other than it seems unnecessary to work it into the lead. It is worth noting that the journal that published Ulrich's study (SRMHP) is not a well known one. Without saying too much about myself personally, I have access to arguably the largest scholarly library in the world, yet SRMHP is not carried in regular collections nor available online. I will have to special order it as a hardcopy in order to examine the details.Legitimus (talk) 03:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The Rind article is mostly out of the radar for now. Regarding a direct connection between the Rind meta-analyses and advocacy for lowering or abolishing age of consent. I'd like to see a few specific quotes, or even one quote or one URL, verifying this direct connection to advocacy for abolishing or lowering age of consent. Can this claim of a direct connection be currently verified on line, or in the current literature? Has there been any published report of any of these groups anywhere adocating the lowering of the age in recent years? My impression is that the ages of consent have been rising in a few countries. This statement of linkage may have taken on the status of an urban myth; like propaganda, it is repeated so that everyone "knows" it is true, and there is no need for hard evidence. But where is the hard evidence on-line? in recent publications? If there is evidence, and someone has published that recently, the evidence should not be that hard to find. My impression from Wikipeida is that these activist groups are diminishing, and a few individuals maybe hang on to maintain a website for the group. Radvo (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't have more Sources for what was happening with those Age of Consent organizations in 1998--2001, I have already challenged the NPOV and the veracity of the underlined text in the original sentence, and now in Truthinwriting's suggested edit. My impression is that it's just not true 13+ years later. And it is not fair (NPOV) to immediately associate the scholarly study in the Introduction with the political activism of tiny intensely despised fringe groups. Wikipedia would be perpetuating an Urban Legend, a guilt by association fallacy and a delusion that serves the purposes of those hostile to (and fearful of) this study, and its associated replication. For veracity, I'd like to see some updated argument from a hated advocacy organization today "quoting" the connection between the Rind study and legal reform. Does anyone have a current "quote"? We have no updated third party reference Source for such a direct connection to age of consent reform. I agree with Truthinwriting that we not include either the original or an edited sentence as part of the introduction. If something like this sentence should stay, this sentence is verifiable, a little bit more NPOV IMHO, and less likely be challenged for veracity "The International Pedophile and Child Emancipation documentation service enthusiastically documents the study, and attorneys have used the study in court. (cite)" The mission statement of the IPCE states the group is for scholarly documentation and discussion, and is NOT a [political] action organization. It does not advocate legal reform. Another matter: The first sentence is too long. To shorten it, I suggest deleting "that even though CSA may not result in harm, this does not mean it is not wrong or morally repugnant behavior." "Repugnant" injects editor bias and appears no where in the original Rind text; see original quote below. I substituted this text directly from the Rind original: "that lack of harmfulness does not imply lack of wrongfulness". For reference, here is a full quote that is found in 1998 Rind et al. on page 47:
So, finally, here is another suggested version of the last paragraph of the introduction, for your consideration:
Radvo (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Questions: Do we need a corrected, and updated to 2011, NPOV source for the inappropriate use, in the US courts, of the Rind study by defense attorneys? Or does our attempt at verification, with this specific 2003 source, fail? Do we delete the sentence from the article's introduction if source verification fails with both cited sources (footnotes 4 [Spiegel] and 5 [Ondersma])? Might other editors help out? Radvo (talk) 23:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC) Another thought about the failed reference source, in the Introduction, for the clause:
The earliest version of this idea seems to have been edited into the Introduction of this article on March 16th, 2006 as an unsourced opinion/observation, contributed by Will Beback. Later editors added to, revised, deleted, and rephrased Will Beback's clause, but none of these versions was correctly sourced or footnoted either. Since the clause is not properly sourced, and since I gave other reasons above to delete this clause, the clause should be removed. Radvo (talk) 05:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your note on my talk page. I don't recall the circumstances of my edit five years ago. The edit summary makes it appear that I was restoring text rather than adding it freshly. However I don't have time to research it. Will Beback talk 19:59, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
The line that says
should stay, or at least something like it. The first part presents a significant aspect of the topic and should be in the lead, per WP:LEAD, especially since it is covered lower in the article. The "defense attorneys" part of the line should probably stay as well, but I don't mind if that part is removed.
Thirdly, child asexual abuse -- specifically adults engaging in sexual activity with prepubescents or early pubescents -- is considered to cause harm by most of the psychological/medical community (and I'm not talking about 18-year-olds with 13-year-olds), which is why the Rind study was and is still so controversial...not just because of moral beliefs. ... Yes, Rind says that child sexual abuse may not cause harm, but that is the point. This article is supposed to be about what the Rind study reports and the reactions to that report. It cannot be helped that most researchers and the general public have severely criticized the findings. Flyer22 (talk) 21:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
About WP:LEAD, read it...the whole page if you need to. I'm the experienced Wikipedia editor here, unless you aren't as new as you claim to be, and I am letting you know that a piece of information you are trying to get removed from the lead belongs in the lead. WP:LEAD is clear about why. You say "There are no good sources for that idea. I don't like the idea because I don't think it is true." I say WP:Verifiability says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." This information is backed to reliable, published sources. And I don't know why you keep talking down to me, as though I am some under-educated idiot who just "goes with the flow." My belief that
has nothing to do with believing "urban legend." It has to do with what I have witnessed on forums among pedophiles and those like them advocating for ages of consent to be lowered. I witnessed this with my own eyes. It was not by word of mouth. But of course we go by reliable, published sources here at Wikipedia, not by personal experience.....Flyer22 (talk) 10:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
This paragraph is just about the claim of a direct connection between Dr. Rind's meta-analysis and age of consent reform advocacy. Flyer22, you wrote above: "This information [about the direct connection between the Rind paper and advocacy for legal reform] is backed to reliable, published sources." The contested clause offers no such reliable sources in the footnotes, (or the page numbers cited are wrong or missing). Most of the full text in the two reliable sources, listed in footnotes 4 and 5, is available on line. The sources are reliable sources in general, but they don't specifically back up what is said in the article's Introduction. There is a difference between being a reliable source in general, and a reliable source backing a specific claim. Please correct me if I missed it. What is the page number in these two reference sources that "backs" up "this information?" Neither of these two sources ever even mentioned the Ipce or MHAMic websites. [SNIP, for brevity] Three organizations are identified in the article as advocacy organizations, but they are clearly fringe and NOT RELIABLE SOURCES! I looked at the MAHMic and Ipce sites. [SNIP for brevity] Well, SURPRISE! They are not age of consent advocacy organizations. Those fringe organizations are documentation services, they list, reference, and document publications and articles. I could not find any trace of evidence on these specific websites of advocacy for legal reform and associating legal change with the Rind study.
The introduction, IMHO, includes a fallacy called 'guilt by association' for the 6 researchers who authored the 3 studies. The 6 living authors are smeared with the accusation that they exonerate pedophiles. I gave a psychologist Carol Tarvis quote from a good source to support this claim of a "pedophile exoneration smear", but the reliable source was removed (with all my other edits). Where is the reliable source for that libel? Wikipedia itself? So, there is a BLP issue here, too.
I challenge any claim that NAMBLA uses the Rind study to support its political advocacy (in the Wikipedia Introduction) because the claim is not supported by a reliable source, as Wikipedia defines one. Flyer22 (above) teaches us that truth is not as important as supplying a reliable source. She teaches a hard lesson to swallow, but it's the correct lesson. [SNIP for brevity]. Radvo (talk) 10:00, 24 December 2011 (UT
Truth is an issue for Wikipedia, which is why that part of the line of WP:Verifiability is currently contested (as seen with its "under discussion" tag). It's just that reliable sourcing and keeping people from objecting to things because they don't like it are more important.
If we take away the "age of consent" part that is in the lead and lower part of the article, there is still the matter of the fact that pedo-advocacy websites have used the Rind study to argue that child sexual abuse does not cause harm. Some of those very people used to edit Wikipedia before they were blocked and/or banned. We would also get random pedo-pushing editors (IPs or registered) citing Rind as their proof that child sexual abuse does not cause harm. And this is also the reason that the Rind study is even at the MHAMIC website. [SNIP of unrelated material for brevity] Flyer22 (talk) 11:22, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
I've already explained to you why pedophiles supporting the Rind study belongs in the lead and in the lower part of the article. It is a significant aspect of this controversy...that some pedophile groups saw it as validation that their actions were not harming children. That is not original research, but fact. Fix the wording and/or take care of the sources, if problematic, and leave it in the article. If by "CSA industry," you mean all the researchers against child sexual abuse, I don't see how they were "humiliated when all of their research produced between 1966 and 1995 yielded the results Rind found." No, the were offended by Rind. Not embarrassed because Rind proved them wrong. Flyer22 (talk) 23:28, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
That suggested text [by Truthwriting; first entry above] is brilliant, and insightful! It may be too original. This brilliant summary of the underlying issues should NOT be stated in Wikipedia's voice,... Rather, something like this should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where true and justified, described as widespread views... [I changed my mind on this edit; it this can be inserted without challenge, I support this edit, and have included it in the text of the full Introduction below .Radvo] Something like this (that follows) might be more easily sourced...
Someone please shorten that "off the cuff" remark for me, Radvo ( talk) 00:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC) [Of course, this has the same problem as some of the other suggestions above. What is the reference source for this summary? Or is none needed?]
None of these efforts to discredit Rind contradict the simple fact Heather Ulrich et al. replicated the study in 2005, and came up with the identical results. That is very powerful information! I am delighted to read that you [Truthinwriting] see the importance of including the Ulrich replication in the Introduction. ... Radvo (talk) 03:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
[End of all Paste]
New text: Here is my tentative composite from all of above, that may fail Wikipedia's verification requirement, but maybe this can be revised with the texts from reliable sources here. This is the entire Introduction, including some clarifying changes to the first and second paragraph.
Revisions, comments, suggestions, and objections of all editors are invited for discussion here. Radvo ( talk) 00:26, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
About the edit contributed by Legitimus on December 15, 2011.
She added to the 'Findings in brief' section: "The definition of CSA varied significantly between samples, most including victims as old as 17, and also included non-contact offenses (such as exhibitionism)." [1]
About the last clause: "The [Rind et al. 1998] definition of CSA ...included non-contact offenses (such as exhibitionism)."
On page 29, the word "offenses" does not appear. "Offenses" is a legal term. We don't have information that all of these acts of CSA were legally prosecuted. The many samples were college students, not prisoners. To avoid introducing confusion, a non-legal term might be used instead of "offenses."
Rind et al. 1998 states: "Types of CSA ... varied from study to study, including [CSA] acts such as an invitation to do something sexual, exhibitionism, fondling, masturbation, oral sex, attempted intercourse, and completed intercourse." The researchers also added: "the prevalence of less severe types is likely to be underestimated."( Rind 1998, page 30)
The common sense implication of including the "non-contact offenses (such as exhibitionism)" clause is that Rind et al. used a definition of CSA that was too broad, and the overly broad definition of CSA included everything, 17 year olds (who are not children), invitations to sex, and, maybe, including the kitchen sink! So the reader of the Wikipedia might come to the conclusion, as expected by common sense, that Rind's faulty and varied definitions of CSA were the reason why the "CSA construct" failed to predict expected harm in the effect size calculations.
However, such an implication, perhaps wrongly suggested by including this clause, is not supported by the study itself on page 44-45. "Multiple regression analyses showed that the intensity of the relationship between CSA and adjustment varied reliably as a function of gender, level of consent, and the interaction of these two factors. ... It is noteworthy that neither the level of contact nor the interaction between gender and level of contact was related to intensity. These latter results failed to provide support for the common [sense] belief that contact sex is more harmful than noncontact sex or that contact sex for girls is especially harmful"[underlining added to the original].
"The near-zero correlation between penetration and outcome is consistent with the multiple regression analysis finding that contact sex did not moderate adjustment. This result provides empirical support for Finkelhor's (1979 , p. 103) [Finkelhor,D. (1979). Sexually victimized children. New York: The Free Press.Page 103] observation that our society's view of intercourse as the most damaging form of CSA is 'a well-ingrained prejudice' unsupported by research." To ensure that the Wikipedia article does not wrongly validate factual misinformation about what the study reports and perpetuate a "well-ingrained prejudice," (identified by Finkelhor) the clause identified here from the Findings in Brief section should be carefully balanced with information that comes from Rind et al. 1998 (pages 29, 30, 44, 45) and Finkelhor 1979 (page 103).
Since this section is entitled, Findings in brief, it reflects what is presented in Rind et al. 1998. Information that contradicts the presentation of Rind et al. 1998 and Finkelhor 1979, is not included in this "Findings in Brief" section, but is included in the article in other sections. The way the text now reads may correctly reflect the "Findings in brief", but that one identified clause may need additional balance information, so the reader does not make a wrong inference that the Rind et al. 1998 results came from so many non-contact offenses (that the reader may wrongly think are less likely to be harmful).
I may not have phrased this fully, tactfully or NPOV enough. I may not have the wording above exactly correct, according to other pages of Rind 1998 or various Wikipedia guidelines. If so, I apologize. Please check and correct. This is a work in progress on the TALK page, and other editors are invited to correct and improve this information with additional text, corrections, and page numbers. Radvo ( talk) 17:25, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Truthinwriting responds: . Happy New Year! (and more thoughts, responses, & comments)
If the "several" versus "a number of" versus <the actual number of samples&participants> is settled, skip to my next paragraph now. If it is still being discussed: I have one of the Oxford English dictionaries on my computer and it specifically lists "a number of" as meaning "several", which it specifically defines as "more than two but not many". My sense growing up in the U.S. is that several is usually referring to something in the single digits and a number of might be larger but still carries the implication of relatively-speaking, few. Hence as I mentioned before "a number of" appears to be incorrect, the exact numbers are objective and neutral and provide facts from which a reader can judge the scope for themself, hence the exact numbers seem to be the way to go.
Regarding the concern about "valorizing" the study, I don't see how any of the edits being discussed would valorize anything. The two topics were: including the exact number of samples/participants and the wording "designed to be nationally representative". These are both objective facts and are important, basic information for the Wikipedia reader. I doubt readers would see either as valorizing, but if they did it would probably be because they (i.e., the reader) were drawing a conclusion based on the facts. As I understand it, Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia that provides facts with a NPOV, so that people can draw their own conclusions. So as long as we maintain a NPOV, provide relevant facts, and keep our personal interpretations to a minimum, we should be on solid ground for informing the public and meeting the goals of both Wikipedia and the page. So in summary on this "valorizing" issue, I don't see any problem; the biggest danger, perhaps, is that we'll selectively omit facts that readers should have to make informed conclusions (hence my bias for always including more information, and more specific information, rather than less; this should also help minimize concerns about cherry-picking).
Regarding the "attorney use"-type material in the Lead, I have nothing really new to say. There must have been concerns about change or there would have been no controversy, but we need to have verifiable sources for the page. Hence I still favor deletion or rewording to an indefinite-phrasing that will not need sourcing, perhaps something like: "Perhaps the controversy occurred, in part, because of concern about the use of the study to argue for changes in the law ...". Writing it that way ("Perhaps ..., in part, ...") might allow the basic idea to be included but reduce problems with sourcing. Or would this still need to be sourced? Radvo offered an "off the cuff" possible phrasing and asked for comments/edits, following is my quick adjustment of that (posted above at 00:15, 27 December 2011). Mostly I just removed a few adjectives that could be interpreted as unsourced conclusions and refocused the wording on the 1998 study which was where the controversy was focused (if memory serves, there were few, if any, criticisms of the national study).
"There had been concern, expressed on radio talk shows, in right wing advocacy organizations, in newspaper and magazine articles, and even in the U.S. Congress. Critics appeared to fear that the Rind et al. 1998 meta-analysis could be used to advocate effectively for change in the age of consent laws. Concern was expressed about possible injustice for victims of CSA, and that the controversial results of the Rind et al. study might be misused in court, without appropriate skepticism, to the detriment of victims of CSA."
I read the sourced pages of the Spiegel book (thanks for pointing out they are available on the web!), and they do not support the current wording, but they might partially support the above wording. However, if the above is okay without sources, then perhaps that is the way to go.
Radvo suggested a revised version of the Lead (posted above on 00:26, 29 December 2011). I have no major objections to it as a replacement, though I have a lot of minor word-choice type suggestions I will want to make if we use it. I won't offer those suggestions now, since it will be a waste of time if we don't move toward that offering and I want to relax more during this winter break, but I support it and I'd be happy to go over it and repost it here if people want to see how I recommend it be adjusted.
Re: alternatives to the word "offenses": That word does imply a legal offense, especially given the mention of laws, Congress, and so on in the upper part of the page, hence we should avoid it where practical. Additionally, many of the events that were categorized as CSA might not even have been illegal in the jurisdiction where they occurred, hence the page should probably avoid anything that indicates something was illegal or not, unless we are sure about it (e.g., a sexual relationship between a 16-year-old and a 26-year-old might be legal but categorized as CSA under one of the CSA definitions used by the researchers). As for alternative wording: "event", "incident", or "experience" might work, especially if preceded by the adjective "sexual".
The sentence in question is currently worded: "The definition of CSA varied significantly between samples, most including victims as old as 17, and also included non-contact offenses (such as exhibitionism)."
I think any of the three above alternatives works well here. My larger concern with this sentence is the use of the word "victims". Many of these people did not view themselves as victims and in a case such as the example above (16 w/ 26) the word victim would just be incorrect. Hence I suggest changing victim to individuals or people, since victim would violate NPOV and be incorrect in many cases.
The most recent concern raised dealt with concern about misrepresenting the makeup of the samples (e.g., all having overly wide definitions) and that this may have been careless or a fault of Rind et al. (at least, I think that was the concern; I was not clear on exactly which phrase was at issue). For the most part, the data and issue related to this probably belongs as a separate entry in the "Criticism and response" section, rather than in the "Findings in brief" section. Hence I suggest someone put together a sourced "Criticism and response" sub-section titled something like Definitional issues, and include a sourced criticism (I'm sure I can find one for this) with a sourced Rind et al. response (or relevant information from the original article, if it is there; again, I'm sure I can find this if I look for it). Truthinwriting ( talk) 10:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
This section is for discussing issues around definitions, or definitional issues.
Define "CSA": The definitions of CSA varied among 59 studies
Ames, A. & Houston, D.A., "Legal, social, and biological definitions of pedophilia," Archives of Sexual Behavior, vol. 19, 1990, pp. 333-342.
Researchers from Indiana University elaborate on the distinction between child molestation and pedophilia, writing that confusion of the two hinders scientific understanding.
Feierman, J., "Introduction and A Biosocial Overview," in Feierman, J., ed., Pedophilia: Biosocial Dimensions, New York: Springer-Verlag, 1990a, pp. 1-68.
Jay Feierman of the University of New Mexico defines pedophilia, pedosexual behavior, ephebophilia, hebephilia, and ephebosexual behavior. He also discusses the relationship between adult-minor sexual behavior and child sexual abuse in terms of consent and harm.
Fergusson, D.M. & Mullen, P.E., Childhood sexual abuse: An evidence based perspective, Thousand Oaks, California: Sage Publications, 1999.
David M. Fergusson and Paul E. Mullen describe the way in which CSA is defined based on normative moral standards, and explain why there can never be a single universal definition of CSA. They criticize the popular belief among professionals and the public that CSA is a syndrome identifiable by certain symptoms. They also find fault with "trite conclusions" about CSA that are "chanted like sacred mantras." They propose a straightforward scientific approach to definitional problems.
Freund, K., "Assessment of pedophilia," in Cook, M. & Howells, K. (Eds.), Adult sexual interest in children, London: Academic Press, 1981, pp. 139-179.
Kurt Freund of the University of Toronto makes a distinction between pedophilia and hebephilia, and describes misleading conclusions that result from criminological research which confuses pedophilia with pedosexual behavior.
Green, R., “Is pedophilia a mental disorder?”, Archives of Sexual Behavior, vol. 31, no. 6, 2002, pp. 467-471.
British sexologist Richard Green describes changing definitions of pedophilia in successive editions of DSM and writes that the current definition is logically incoherent. He writes that it fails to meet the DSM’s own criteria for classification as a mental disorder.
Haugaard, J.J. & Emery, R.E., "Methodological issues in child sexual abuse research," Child Abuse & Neglect, vol. 13, 1989, pp. 89-100.
University of Virginia researchers describe their study which found that the definition of CSA significantly affects findings regarding the prevalence and consequences of CSA.
Okami, P. & Goldberg, A., "Personality Correlates of Pedophilia: Are They Reliable Indicators?", Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 29, No. 3, 1992, pp. 297-328.
UCLA researchers describe common inconsistent usage of the terms child and pedophilia--usage based on law and morality rather than science. They explain in detail why sex offenders against children are most likely a very different group of people from pedophiles. They also criticize the use of terms that suggest violence to refer to adult-child sexual interactions when overwhelming data show a lack of force or violence in such interactions. They argue in favor of making a distinction between actual violence and moral violation.
Sandfort, T., Boys on their contacts with men: A study of sexually expressed friendships, New York: Global Academic Publishers, 1987.
University of Utrecht researcher Theodorus Sandfort defines children according to Dutch law as those under age 16, and accordingly defines pedophile and pedosexuality. He argues in favor of limiting the term abuse to situations in which the adult uses his power or some other method to compel the child to have sex with him.
West, D.J. & Woodhouse, T.P., "Sexual encounters between boys and adults," in Li, C.K., West, D.J., & Woodhouse, T.P., Children’s sexual encounters with adults, London: Duckworth, 1990, pp. 3-137.
British researchers describe varying definitions of "child" and "abuse" found among researchers, and argue against the use of the blanket term "abuse" for all sexual contacts between minors and adults. Criticism and Response
Truthinwriting wrote: The most recent concern raised dealt with concern about misrepresenting the makeup of the samples (e.g., all having overly wide definitions) and that this may have been careless or a fault of Rind et al. (at least, I think that was the concern; I was not clear on exactly which phrase was at issue). For the most part, the data and issue related to this probably belongs as a separate entry in the "Criticism and response" section... Hence I suggest someone put together a sourced "Criticism and response" sub-section titled something like Definitional issues, and include a sourced criticism (I'm sure I can find one for this) with a sourced Rind et al. response (or relevant information from the original article, if it is there; again, I'm sure I can find this if I look for it). Truthinwriting (talk) 10:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Radvo wrote: The sexual experiences (CSA) ... included verbal "invitations to do something sexual" and exhibitionism, both of which do not involve [any] touching. Go to last section: Appendix, to see a list of the definitions.
See also the Section above entitled: Request for balance, for one phrase, found in the 'Findings in brief' Section. Also, non-legal alternative sought for the word "offenses."
[end quote]
Define "Child" The Definition of "the child" in CSA varied in the 59 studies, sometimes using the legal definition and sometimes using the biological definition.
Criticism and Response
Radvo wrote: Twenty of the 59 studies classified adolescents as old as 16 or 17 [years old] as "children" confusing the legal definition of the child (or the definition of the legal "minor") with the biological definition. See the column three of the appendix of footnote 1; http://www.ipce.info/library_3/rbt/metaana.htm
Define "Offenses" Do we use that here in this article only as its meaning in the law?
Radvo ( talk) 00:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Flyer22 asked me to have a look, I'm only just getting to it.
The page above is so horribly long I am reluctant to even try to read it. My preference is to edit the main page boldly and see what the result is. I've made some changes; the biggest difference is to remove the numbers - these sorts of details are appropriate for the body, not the lead. Even for the body, the numbers aren't necessarily a great idea (it would help if they were commented on by other sources to indicate if, and why they are significant) as it's a lot of detail for what is essentially a methodological issue.
The actual changes since November 12th have been relatively minimal ( after mine). The biggest one is obviously the addition of the "findings in brief" section. I don't think the section is a great idea - it's too much detail, and the general reader of wikipedia would lack the background and context to know if the findings mentioned are good or bad. I think it would be better to interstitch the relevant details with the criticisms rather than attempt to duplicate the paper's abstract.
I've been looking for an excuse to review this page for a while now, I'll use this interest as a kick in the ass. I'll see if I have the leisure time to work on a rewrite. If my edits were excessively objectionable, then consider this a blanket permission to revert and (sigh) direct me to the appropriate section of the talk page above. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 21:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
The Rind et al. controversy was one of the moral panics, spread by the media and the advocacy groups, from time to time, this panic unique because it involves a jargon-laden mathematical based article in the scientific literature, Few people have access to the article, have read it, or would understand it even if they did. They rely on people they trust to interpret it for them. This moral panic followed similar well documented moral panics around Satanic ritual abuse and Day-care sex-abuse hysteria in the 1980's and early 1990's. These hysteriae and moral panics command considerable interest and are well documented in the Wikipedia. (See the McMartin_preschool_trial, the Kern county child abuse cases, the Outreau trial a similar case in France, Peter Hugh McGregor Elliscase, a similar case in New Zealand, the Wee Care Nursery School case, the Wenatchee child abuse prosecutions, the South Ronaldsay child abuse scandal a similar legal case from rural Scotland. People did serious time in prison, but many of the so called perpetrators were exonerated in the end. These moral panics were followed in the 1990's by a very different kind of moral panic that involved Dissociative identity disorder, Multiple Personality Disorder, confabulation, recovered memory syndrome, False memory syndrome, and similar Memory Controversies. These things got the clinicians involved in them in serious civil law suits, and they were losing their shirts. This maybe even involved Dissociative identity disorder in popular culture; many enjoy a good mystery. Some of this was focused on remembering childhood incest, as a form of therapy. The psychiatrists, psychotherapists, and clinicians, who were involved in the later, were in 1999 creating and maintaining the controversy around the Rind et al. report (working thru the legislatures, through Stephanie Dallam, and several their advocacy organizations, many named in this article). The clinicians were being hit with law suits for psychiatric malpractice, and saw Rind's work as a threat in court that had to be neutralized. No one was being imprisoned, but financial security for some therapists was being seriously threatened. So they brought out the big guns, and put Stephanie Dallam out front. Social psychologist [ Carol Tarvis] called them on this from the very start, offering this interesting detail: "These clinicians want to kill the Rind study because they fear that it will be used to support malpractice claims against their fellow therapists." Dr. Tarvis wrote in Society magazine [8]: "Indeed, a group of them, whose members read like a "Who's Who" in the multiple personality disorder and recovered-memories business, made this fear explicit in a memo to the CEO of the American Psychological Association: "In addition to the fact that we, as a group, wish to protect the integrity of psychotherapy, we also want to protect good psychotherapists from attack and from financial ruin as a result of [civil law] suits that are costly both financially and emotionally."
This is just a section to list the sources that might be found that are not currently integrated on the page. Don't bother using the {{ reflist}} template, it just makes things more complicated. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 14:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Our ability to comment, summarize or discuss may be hamstrung by a lack of full-text sources, expecially to dozens of articles in the professional journals. We may need some help sorting thru all this, and picking out what is most useful. So, just to get things started, I have included convenience links to web sites until we can sort out how editors can access the full text in the professional journals. If this is not permitted for temprary use on a TALK page and forbidden by Wikipedia policy, please let me know what the policy is. I want to work completely within the rules and policies. Radvo.
WLU kindly contributed this chart (below) to the Rind et al. Controversy on September 29, 2009. To save editors unnecessary work, I returned this chart here from Archive 1. It seems that this material was not used. Possibly because of lack of interest by those who have access to the journals, and/or the lack of access to the full text of the articles by those who have the interest. Radvo
Citation | Year | Used |
---|---|---|
Rind, B (2000). "Science versus orthodoxy: Anatomy of the congressional condemnation of a scientific article and reflections on remedies for future ideological attacks". Applied and Preventive Psychology. 9 (4): 211–226.
doi:
10.1016/S0962-1849(00)80001-3. {{
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|
2000 | 0 |
Spiegel, D (2000). "The price of abusing children and numbers". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (2): 63–6. doi: 10.1007/s12119-000-1026-4. | 2000 | 0 |
Rind, B (2001). "Moralistic psychiatry, procrustes' bed, and the science of child sexual abuse: A response to Spiegel". Sexuality & Culture. 5 (1): 79–89.
doi:
10.1007/s12119-001-1012-5. {{
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|
2001 | 0 |
Sher, KJ (2002). "Publication of Rind et al. (1998). The editors' perspective".
The American Psychologist. 57 (3): 206–10.
PMID
11905121. {{
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|
2002 | 0 |
Rind, B (1999). "Interpretation of research on sexual abuse of boys".
JAMA. 281 (23): 2185.
PMID
10376568. {{
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|
1999 | 0 |
Oellerich, TD (2000). "Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman: Politically incorrect—Scientifically correct". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (2): 67–81. doi: 10.1007/s12119-000-1027-3. | 2000 | 0 |
Rind, B (2000). "Debunking the false allegation of "statistical abuse": A reply to Speigel". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (2): 101–111.
doi:
10.1007/s12119-000-1029-1. {{
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|
2000 | 0 |
NOTE:Conference presentation, dubious reliability; I think it's the one cited by Salter
|
1998 | 0 |
Speigel, D (2000). "Real effects of real child sexual abuse". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (4): 99–105. doi: 10.1007/s12119-000-1006-8. | 2000 | 0 |
Hyde, JS (2003). "The use of meta-analysis in understanding the effects of child sexual abuse". Sexual development in childhood: Volume 7 of The Kinsey Institute series.
Indiana University Press. pp. 82–91.
ISBN
0253342430. {{
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2003 | 0 |
Baird, BN (2002). "Politics, operant conditioning, Galileo, and the American Psychological Association's response to Rind et al. (1998)". The American Psychologist. 57 (3): 189–92. PMID 11905117. | 2002 | 0 |
Grover, S (2003). "On Power Differentials and Children's Rights: A Dissonance Interpretation of the Rind and Associates (1998) Study on Child Sexual Abuse". Ethical Human Sciences and Services. 5 (1): 21–33. | 2003 | 0 |
Pittenger, DJ (2003). "Intellectual freedom and editorial responsibilities within the context of controversial research". Ethics & Behavior. 13 (2): 105–25. PMID 14552312. | 2003 | 0 |
Mirkin, H (2000). "Sex, science, and sin: The Rind report, sexual politics and American scholarship". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (2): 82–100. doi: 10.1007/s12119-000-1028-2. | 2000 | 0 |
Sternberg, RJ (2002). "Everything you need to know to understand the current controversies you learned from psychological research. A comment on the Rind and Lilienfeld controversies". The American Psychologist. 57 (3): 193–7. PMID 11905118. | 2002 | 0 |
I have to quit now. I will tweak this page and check the links another time. Radvo ( talk) 00:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Unless there is discussion that leads me to hold off or change my plan, in a few days I plan to make the following four adjustments to the introductory paragraphs on the article page. For readers looking for a concise read of this post, items (1), (2), and (3) are probably not contentious, and the result of doing items (4), (5) and (6) are presented in the last paragraph below.
(1) The first sentence says the 1998 paper was based on "several" samples, but this is not correct. I plan to adjust the wording to include the specific data from the primary analyses. Current wording: "...several samples of college students."; proposed wording: "...58 independent samples of college students containing data on over 15,000 individuals.".
(2) The second sentence of the introduction mentions the 1997 national meta-analysis, but provides almost no information about it. To have informed readers of Wikipedia who have the relevant background to understand the controversy, I plan to add an additional phrase at the end of the current sentence which lets readers know the scope of that article in a parallel fashion to the prior sentence on the 1998 college paper. Suggested addition: "... that examined 10 independent samples designed to be nationally representative based on data from more than 8,500 participants."
(3) The second paragraph uses the phrasing "the construct of CSA was questionably valid;". I think that wording my be hard to understand for some readers, hence I plan to change it to: "the construct of CSA as it had been defined by researchers was of questionable scientific validity;".
(4) The first sentence of the last paragraph contains the wording "...and denied that their findings implied current moral...". The use of the word denied has a negative valence suggesting Rind et al. acted improperly. The word denied might be appropriate in other contexts (e.g., when they responded to a criticism) but this intro is not yet dealing with specific criticisms. Hence I plan to change the wording to: "... and indicated that their findings did not imply current moral..."
I hope to make the above four edits in a few days.
(5) The last sentence of the intro is currently presented with two sources. It currently reads: "Numerous age of consent reform organizations have quoted the paper in support of their efforts to lower or rescind age of consent laws, and defense attorneys have used the study to argue for minimizing harm in child sexual abuse cases." This sentence strikes me as problematic in various ways. I have not read Spiegel's 2003 book (nor do I have a copy). Is anyone here familiar with it? I do have the other source as a word-searchable PDF (Ondersma et al. 2001), but it does not seem to mention anything about defense attorney usage.
Even if it is true that the Rind et al. paper was used in court cases, if that issue is to be raised on this Wikipedia page shouldn't it be balanced with more information and reasoning? After all, courts should use scientific evidence when it is available, hence more accurate wording might be "...and defense attorneys have appropriately used the study to argue that harm did not occur in their client's case, due to the willingness of the minor's participation and the enjoyment the young person received as a result of their interactions." No, don't worry, I am not suggesting we actually write anything like that on the page but I present it here to make the point that unless we know what those court cases were about, the current wording is potentially biasing or outright incorrect (e.g., you can not minimize harm when there is no harm). Further, the Rind et al. paper may have been used by prosecutors as well, since it provides information on when harm might occur and when it might not (hence only mentioning defense attorney usage seems unbalanced regarding something we probably have no reliable information about).
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help)[Truthinwriting continues:] Additionally, I do not see a need for that particular sentence in the intro. Given that the intro reads fine without it, I suggest it be deleted since that will save a lot of work and contention for everyone. If something like the sentence should stay, perhaps a simple edit will make it less problematic. For example: "Numerous age of consent reform organizations have quoted the paper in support of their efforts to lower or rescind age of consent laws, and attorneys have used the study in court."
Feedback on this is welcome and desired.
(6) The issue of moving a reference to the Ulrich replication study higher up into the page was also raised at one point. I don't know if that is critical or not, but I think it is a good idea and putting it at the end of the intro makes sense to me. I have not yet obtained a copy of the Ulrich paper hence I have only read the abstract, but even that seems clear enough to add a note about it at the end of the intro.
Considering (4), (5), and (6), a new final paragraph of the intro might read something like: "Rind et al. concluded with a statement that even though CSA may not result in harm, this does not mean it is not wrong or morally repugnant behavior and indicated that their findings did not imply current moral and legal prohibitions against CSA should be changed. [Delete: Numerous age of consent reform organizations have quoted the paper in support of their efforts to lower or rescind age of consent laws, and attorneys have used the study in court.] Ulrich et al.[cite], seven years after the publication of the Rind et al. meta-analysis, published a replication of it in the Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice that confirmed Rind et al.'s main findings." Truthinwriting ( talk) 01:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
[Comment by Radvo:]
I just made four edits as per my TALK posting a week ago.
(1) Re: "several". Although "a number of" or similar wording is an improvement over "several", it still carries an implication of "not that many, at least, relatively speaking". The example of G-type stars is a good example, because is shows that in comparison to type M & K stars, relatively speaking, there are few G-type stars. Rind et al. used nearly 100% of the extent college-sample studies, their search of the literature was nearly exhaustive (regrettably, I suspect my source for this was one of their talks, rather than the paper itself). Although discussions may still be ongoing, since it sounds like there is no serious objection to using the exact numbers from the article I have edited them in as I proposed a week ago.
(2) I didn't notice any objections to (2), though perhaps they were waiting for a decision on (1) to be made first. In any case, I did add the parallel information on the national meta-analysis, as proposed.
(3) I didn't notice any objections to (3). I adjusted the wording as proposed.
(4) I didn't notice any objections to (4). I adjusted the wording as proposed.
Those four items constitute the editing changes I made today.
Regarding (5: numerous age of consent reform organizations / attorney usage): I still think the current wording is problematic for reasons presented earlier. I am now wondering if a complete rewrite with that basic info included might be a better way to go vis-a-vis consensus among us? This is just off-the-top-of-my-head, but perhaps something like: "After publication of the Rind et al. findings, there has been concern that the paper would be used by organizations that wish to change the age of consent laws (e.g., to lower the legal age of consent or to eliminate an age of consent for willing sexual relationships). Additionally there has been concern that the article would be misused in court to argue that little or no harm occurred, when in fact harm likely did occur in a given case before the court." That wording probably needs work, but perhaps this way we can get away from some of the problems that have been being discussed.
Regarding (6: moving Ulrich replication higher into the Intro): I still think this is a good idea, but I am waiting for the dust to settle on (5) first. :-) Truthinwriting ( talk) 07:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Following are some quick thoughts/responses to the above.
Samples versus Studies: A researcher might collect multiple samples (e.g., male and female; college and community and prison) but publish the research as a single article. In this case there is one study, but more than one sample. A researcher might collect one sample, but publish multiple articles based on the data. In this case there is one sample, but more than one study. Generally, scientists want to know the number of independent samples, not the number of publications.
In casual writing, "studies" and "samples" are often used interchangeably, but perhaps we should be more specific.
A note on "independent" samples: If a researcher collects some data (1 sample) and publishes results, then collects more data in the same way and adds it to the prior data set (still 1 sample, but now it has a larger N), then the two samples (the earlier one and the larger later one) are not independent because there is overlap in their makeup. In general, non-independent samples are extremely problematic to deal with, since data that was in the earlier waves will be over represented if the non-independent samples are combined.
Additional note on the meaning of independent in Rind et al.: The above bulleted list looks correct (but I did not check it), but note that the independence is by bullet. A given sample may have been used in different analyses (e.g., compared with controls for the main meta-analysis, and used again for tabulating retrospectively recalled reaction data). Thus the 250+ number sounds too large and might be confusing. However, to capture the scope of the Rind et al. analyses, listing the totals separately, as in the above bulleted list, might be good.
College studies prior to 1966: I believe there was exactly one. Landis (1956). Rind et al. were criticized for including it. I believe more information on the Landis study and the controversy should be added to the page, but I have not started to work on that yet (but hope to within the foreseeable future).
Controversy over using so many studies and/or dissertations: I don't recall there being any controversy over this, or perhaps I just missed it. That they went to the trouble of collecting all the dissertations and theses and including them, and statistically comparing the results of the published versus unpublished research, is great. This information might be good to add somewhere, but I don't recall it being part of the controversy. Hence my quick thought is, do we want it in the Intro or Findings in Brief section? I always lean toward more information is better, hence I think adding it to the Intro is a good idea.
Re: comment on (5) above: As I wrote that quick possible replacement text, I realized I didn't have any sources for it. Perhaps that is a problem; if so, we are back to deletion as the way to go. Something like you wrote (Radvo?) above is fine too, with a little adjustment, but might be hard to source as well. Nevertheless, the controversy probably would not have occurred if people were not worried about some sort of changes occurring, hence there must be some sources somewhere. I'll keep my eyes open. Truthinwriting ( talk) 07:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
I want to bring the dead external web-links in the [ 'Usage outside of scholarly discussion' Section] to the attention of a Wikipedia administrator within the next week, unless this matter can reach some strong consensus here on the TALK page. I am not so familiar with the rules and policies and how they are implemented, but eager to learn the rules and operate within them.
To the appropriate Wikipedia authority or Administrator:
I am a new editor, as of the beginning of December. I need an authoritative answer from an administrator (or similar). I asked about this on the TALK page, and I now raise this matter with an administrator.
In the section [ 'Usage outside of scholarly discussion' in Wikipedia's Rind et al. Controversy article], three websites are named; one link is active; two links are dead, one link should be upgraded to a different section of the website.
All four websites are active here, so editors may see the active links that might be placed into the article: [ NAMbLA] [ The RBT Files at Ipce], [ The Male Homosexual Attraction to Minors Information Center MHAMic] [ Everything you wanted to know about The Rind Controversy MHAMic] This last is a different section of the previous website; the latter deals only with the Rind et al controversy. If by posting these links here I have violated any rule or policy, please delete only the active links immediately.
The question I have is about the permissibility of making these web-links active in the article itself.
According to Dr. Dallam, a highly esteemed, anti-Rind advocate, often used as a reliable source to explain the controversy in this article, these websites were allegedly and inappropriately misusing Rind's scholarly article for political advantage, and these websites are identified in the Wikipedia article for verification purposes. The NAMbLA link in the article works thru another Wikipedia article; with just two clicks of the mouse, one is on the NAMbLA website. The other external links do not work in the article. Since these are links to the work of unknowns, they are NOT referred to in the article as reliable sources. The three links are named, so the Wikipedia reader can verify for him-herself the alleged misuse of the Rind scholarly article on these fringe and non-mainstream websites. The links are associated by Dr. Dallam with tiny fringe organizations that advocate age-of-consent reform. The web-links are external to, and heatedly controversial within, Wikipedia.
Here's my question that needs an authoritative answer: Assuming the consensus of editors of this article is to keep this section of the article as it is, would fixing these dead external links violate any Wikipedia rule, viz. regarding Copyright, using quality sources for verification, or the Wikipedia Policy on Child Protection? Or would active external links be too controversial, and therefore unwanted? I just what to know. If the consensus is to not make these links active, I will obviously have to yield to the consensus.
An alternative view of the editing might go like this: Naming and activating these links might be like placing active external links to variations of the Flat Earth Society, clearly a fringe group, within which nested web-sites are links to many articles from mainstream sources that are allegedly being cited "inappropriately" for the political purposes of the 'Belief in the Earth is Flat Revival'. The purpose of associating the study with favorable reviews and citations by variations of the Flat Earth Society is solely to discredit the study's authors, especially, as noted twice in the article, in court (i.e., with judges and juries). The Wikipedia article and the controversy are maybe saying: "The Rind et al. 1998 meta-analysis must be discredited and trashed because it is 'trumpeted' by the Flat Earth Society on its website."
The first Wikipedia paragraph in the 'Usage outside...' Section is IMHO a "guilt by association" fallacy, a kind of ad hominem attack on Rind et al., a claim that a former Wikipedia editor feels is necessary to repeat in Wikipeida's voice in this Wikipedia article to give the fallacious argument additional weight. The argument goes like this: The mathematical research produced by the Rind et al trio was reviewed or cited favorably on the website of these 3 despicable fringe groups. Therefore, the Wikipedia must also come, by implication, to guilt by association, that Rind et al (and Heather Ulrich et al.) must be morally wrong and despicable like those tiny fringe groups." I edited an alternative version of this section that may be mostly reinstated.
I am considering an alternative edit: The entire "Usage outside of scholarly discussion" section should be dropped from the Wikipedia article entirely. That may not reach consensus either. If the article is rewritten in a NPOV to avoid sullying the reputation of the esteemed Wikepedia with the ad hominem and "guilt by association" attack on Rind et al., and, by implication, on Heather Ulrich et al. (who did a replication of the calculations in 2005, and arrived at identical results) (all six authors are covered by relevant [ BLP policies]), then I want to know if the dead external links must remain inactive to comply with one or more Wikipedia rules or policies.
There is another aspect to this: I bookmarked [ Everything you wanted to know about The Rind Controversy MHAMic] on my personal page so I could easily find that link again, and was attacked for that, and all my contributions to this article were cherry picked out of the article by two anonymous editors. I have since removed that link from my user page, and have no intention of putting it back there. I speculate that its the source of the text, and the link to a controversial bibliography that is most protested. But I like the quality source links in the article. Radvo ( talk) 01:01, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
This Section was put together, by "cut and paste," to facilitate discussion. There is some material, in the previous TALK section, about TruthinWriting's proposals for the Introduction, his points (1), (2), (3) and (4). None of that is here. Truthinwriting had an idea to include more information about the samples; to simplify, none of the sample information has been pasted here either. This section focuses on Truthinwriting's proposals for his point (5), and the related discussion. Since there was so much extra material in the previous section, I cut and pasted only what I thought was relevant to discussing his point (5). All the original material is in the previous section, as previously posted. Maybe, some of you will find this shortened version helpful for making a decision about the wording for the adjustments to the Introduction. If any relevant material was accidentally omitted, I apologize in advance. If you want something additional included, please feel free to add or paste it below. I have put together a tentative composite of the entire Introduction (which Wikipedia calls Lead), with some small revisions throughout the entire text, at the end the paste below. The links do not work because of my cut and paste. Radvo
[Start of Paste ********************* This first part is from Truthinwriting]
numerous age of consent reform organizations / attorney usage): ...I am now wondering if a complete rewrite with that basic info included might be a better way to go vis-a-vis consensus among us? This is just off-the-top-of-my-head, but perhaps something like:
That wording probably needs work, but perhaps this way we can get away from some of the problems that have been being discussed.
Regarding (6: moving Ulrich replication higher into the Intro): I still think this is a good idea, but I am waiting for the dust to settle on (5) first. :-) Truthinwriting
As I wrote that quick possible replacement text, I realized I didn't have any sources for it. Perhaps that is a problem; if so, we are back to deletion as the way to go. Something like you wrote (Radvo?) above [far below] is fine too, with a little adjustment, but might be hard to source as well. Nevertheless, the controversy probably would not have occurred if people were not worried about some sort of changes occurring, hence there must be some sources somewhere. I'll keep my eyes open. Truthinwriting (talk) 07:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
The last sentence of the intro is currently presented with two sources. It currently reads:
This sentence strikes me as problematic in various ways. I have not read Spiegel's 2003 book (nor do I have a copy). Is anyone here familiar with it? I do have the other source as a word-searchable PDF (Ondersma et al. 2001), but it does not seem to mention anything about defense attorney usage.
Even if it is true that the Rind et al. paper was used in court cases, if that issue is to be raised on this Wikipedia page shouldn't it be balanced with more information and reasoning? After all, courts should use scientific evidence when it is available... [Joke deleted for brevity] [U]nless we know what those court cases were about, the current wording is potentially biasing or outright incorrect (e.g., you can not minimize harm when there is no harm). Further, the Rind et al. paper may have been used by prosecutors as well, since it provides information on when harm might occur and when it might not (hence only mentioning defense attorney usage seems unbalanced regarding something we probably have no reliable information about).
Additionally, I do not see a need for that particular sentence in the intro. Given that the intro reads fine without it, I suggest it be deleted since that will save a lot of work and contention for everyone. If something like the sentence should stay, perhaps a simple edit will make it less problematic. For example:
(6) The issue of moving a reference to the Ulrich replication study higher up into the page was also raised at one point. I don't know if that is critical or not, but I think it is a good idea and putting it at the end of the intro makes sense to me. [snip]
a new final paragraph of the intro might read something like:
5 I will need to do some additional research about the legal case part of it. Off the top of my head, the cases where this study were invoked are all in defense; I have never heard of it being brought up by the prosecution or plaintiff. Furthermore, the parts I recall about a few cases were pretty shameless. In Arizona v. Steward, Steward was a teacher who'd molested multiple boys as young as 5 years old. He was a predator. Rind et al was quoted during the sentencing phase as an attempt to gain leniency by claiming the harm was minimal. In Watson v. Roman Catholic Church, the expert witness attempted to use Rind as a basis for his statement that there is no association between sexual abuse and maladjustment. Obviously a gross misstatement of Rind, but the defense team did it anyway. These two cases demonstrate minimization in one, and denial of harm in the other. There was at least one other case that used Rind as a defense tactic, but I don't recall and will have to look for it. I don't have much to say on (6) other than it seems unnecessary to work it into the lead. It is worth noting that the journal that published Ulrich's study (SRMHP) is not a well known one. Without saying too much about myself personally, I have access to arguably the largest scholarly library in the world, yet SRMHP is not carried in regular collections nor available online. I will have to special order it as a hardcopy in order to examine the details.Legitimus (talk) 03:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
The Rind article is mostly out of the radar for now. Regarding a direct connection between the Rind meta-analyses and advocacy for lowering or abolishing age of consent. I'd like to see a few specific quotes, or even one quote or one URL, verifying this direct connection to advocacy for abolishing or lowering age of consent. Can this claim of a direct connection be currently verified on line, or in the current literature? Has there been any published report of any of these groups anywhere adocating the lowering of the age in recent years? My impression is that the ages of consent have been rising in a few countries. This statement of linkage may have taken on the status of an urban myth; like propaganda, it is repeated so that everyone "knows" it is true, and there is no need for hard evidence. But where is the hard evidence on-line? in recent publications? If there is evidence, and someone has published that recently, the evidence should not be that hard to find. My impression from Wikipeida is that these activist groups are diminishing, and a few individuals maybe hang on to maintain a website for the group. Radvo (talk) 05:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't have more Sources for what was happening with those Age of Consent organizations in 1998--2001, I have already challenged the NPOV and the veracity of the underlined text in the original sentence, and now in Truthinwriting's suggested edit. My impression is that it's just not true 13+ years later. And it is not fair (NPOV) to immediately associate the scholarly study in the Introduction with the political activism of tiny intensely despised fringe groups. Wikipedia would be perpetuating an Urban Legend, a guilt by association fallacy and a delusion that serves the purposes of those hostile to (and fearful of) this study, and its associated replication. For veracity, I'd like to see some updated argument from a hated advocacy organization today "quoting" the connection between the Rind study and legal reform. Does anyone have a current "quote"? We have no updated third party reference Source for such a direct connection to age of consent reform. I agree with Truthinwriting that we not include either the original or an edited sentence as part of the introduction. If something like this sentence should stay, this sentence is verifiable, a little bit more NPOV IMHO, and less likely be challenged for veracity "The International Pedophile and Child Emancipation documentation service enthusiastically documents the study, and attorneys have used the study in court. (cite)" The mission statement of the IPCE states the group is for scholarly documentation and discussion, and is NOT a [political] action organization. It does not advocate legal reform. Another matter: The first sentence is too long. To shorten it, I suggest deleting "that even though CSA may not result in harm, this does not mean it is not wrong or morally repugnant behavior." "Repugnant" injects editor bias and appears no where in the original Rind text; see original quote below. I substituted this text directly from the Rind original: "that lack of harmfulness does not imply lack of wrongfulness". For reference, here is a full quote that is found in 1998 Rind et al. on page 47:
So, finally, here is another suggested version of the last paragraph of the introduction, for your consideration:
Radvo (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Questions: Do we need a corrected, and updated to 2011, NPOV source for the inappropriate use, in the US courts, of the Rind study by defense attorneys? Or does our attempt at verification, with this specific 2003 source, fail? Do we delete the sentence from the article's introduction if source verification fails with both cited sources (footnotes 4 [Spiegel] and 5 [Ondersma])? Might other editors help out? Radvo (talk) 23:25, 20 December 2011 (UTC) Another thought about the failed reference source, in the Introduction, for the clause:
The earliest version of this idea seems to have been edited into the Introduction of this article on March 16th, 2006 as an unsourced opinion/observation, contributed by Will Beback. Later editors added to, revised, deleted, and rephrased Will Beback's clause, but none of these versions was correctly sourced or footnoted either. Since the clause is not properly sourced, and since I gave other reasons above to delete this clause, the clause should be removed. Radvo (talk) 05:22, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for your note on my talk page. I don't recall the circumstances of my edit five years ago. The edit summary makes it appear that I was restoring text rather than adding it freshly. However I don't have time to research it. Will Beback talk 19:59, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
The line that says
should stay, or at least something like it. The first part presents a significant aspect of the topic and should be in the lead, per WP:LEAD, especially since it is covered lower in the article. The "defense attorneys" part of the line should probably stay as well, but I don't mind if that part is removed.
Thirdly, child asexual abuse -- specifically adults engaging in sexual activity with prepubescents or early pubescents -- is considered to cause harm by most of the psychological/medical community (and I'm not talking about 18-year-olds with 13-year-olds), which is why the Rind study was and is still so controversial...not just because of moral beliefs. ... Yes, Rind says that child sexual abuse may not cause harm, but that is the point. This article is supposed to be about what the Rind study reports and the reactions to that report. It cannot be helped that most researchers and the general public have severely criticized the findings. Flyer22 (talk) 21:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
About WP:LEAD, read it...the whole page if you need to. I'm the experienced Wikipedia editor here, unless you aren't as new as you claim to be, and I am letting you know that a piece of information you are trying to get removed from the lead belongs in the lead. WP:LEAD is clear about why. You say "There are no good sources for that idea. I don't like the idea because I don't think it is true." I say WP:Verifiability says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." This information is backed to reliable, published sources. And I don't know why you keep talking down to me, as though I am some under-educated idiot who just "goes with the flow." My belief that
has nothing to do with believing "urban legend." It has to do with what I have witnessed on forums among pedophiles and those like them advocating for ages of consent to be lowered. I witnessed this with my own eyes. It was not by word of mouth. But of course we go by reliable, published sources here at Wikipedia, not by personal experience.....Flyer22 (talk) 10:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
This paragraph is just about the claim of a direct connection between Dr. Rind's meta-analysis and age of consent reform advocacy. Flyer22, you wrote above: "This information [about the direct connection between the Rind paper and advocacy for legal reform] is backed to reliable, published sources." The contested clause offers no such reliable sources in the footnotes, (or the page numbers cited are wrong or missing). Most of the full text in the two reliable sources, listed in footnotes 4 and 5, is available on line. The sources are reliable sources in general, but they don't specifically back up what is said in the article's Introduction. There is a difference between being a reliable source in general, and a reliable source backing a specific claim. Please correct me if I missed it. What is the page number in these two reference sources that "backs" up "this information?" Neither of these two sources ever even mentioned the Ipce or MHAMic websites. [SNIP, for brevity] Three organizations are identified in the article as advocacy organizations, but they are clearly fringe and NOT RELIABLE SOURCES! I looked at the MAHMic and Ipce sites. [SNIP for brevity] Well, SURPRISE! They are not age of consent advocacy organizations. Those fringe organizations are documentation services, they list, reference, and document publications and articles. I could not find any trace of evidence on these specific websites of advocacy for legal reform and associating legal change with the Rind study.
The introduction, IMHO, includes a fallacy called 'guilt by association' for the 6 researchers who authored the 3 studies. The 6 living authors are smeared with the accusation that they exonerate pedophiles. I gave a psychologist Carol Tarvis quote from a good source to support this claim of a "pedophile exoneration smear", but the reliable source was removed (with all my other edits). Where is the reliable source for that libel? Wikipedia itself? So, there is a BLP issue here, too.
I challenge any claim that NAMBLA uses the Rind study to support its political advocacy (in the Wikipedia Introduction) because the claim is not supported by a reliable source, as Wikipedia defines one. Flyer22 (above) teaches us that truth is not as important as supplying a reliable source. She teaches a hard lesson to swallow, but it's the correct lesson. [SNIP for brevity]. Radvo (talk) 10:00, 24 December 2011 (UT
Truth is an issue for Wikipedia, which is why that part of the line of WP:Verifiability is currently contested (as seen with its "under discussion" tag). It's just that reliable sourcing and keeping people from objecting to things because they don't like it are more important.
If we take away the "age of consent" part that is in the lead and lower part of the article, there is still the matter of the fact that pedo-advocacy websites have used the Rind study to argue that child sexual abuse does not cause harm. Some of those very people used to edit Wikipedia before they were blocked and/or banned. We would also get random pedo-pushing editors (IPs or registered) citing Rind as their proof that child sexual abuse does not cause harm. And this is also the reason that the Rind study is even at the MHAMIC website. [SNIP of unrelated material for brevity] Flyer22 (talk) 11:22, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
I've already explained to you why pedophiles supporting the Rind study belongs in the lead and in the lower part of the article. It is a significant aspect of this controversy...that some pedophile groups saw it as validation that their actions were not harming children. That is not original research, but fact. Fix the wording and/or take care of the sources, if problematic, and leave it in the article. If by "CSA industry," you mean all the researchers against child sexual abuse, I don't see how they were "humiliated when all of their research produced between 1966 and 1995 yielded the results Rind found." No, the were offended by Rind. Not embarrassed because Rind proved them wrong. Flyer22 (talk) 23:28, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
That suggested text [by Truthwriting; first entry above] is brilliant, and insightful! It may be too original. This brilliant summary of the underlying issues should NOT be stated in Wikipedia's voice,... Rather, something like this should be attributed in the text to particular sources, or where true and justified, described as widespread views... [I changed my mind on this edit; it this can be inserted without challenge, I support this edit, and have included it in the text of the full Introduction below .Radvo] Something like this (that follows) might be more easily sourced...
Someone please shorten that "off the cuff" remark for me, Radvo ( talk) 00:15, 27 December 2011 (UTC) [Of course, this has the same problem as some of the other suggestions above. What is the reference source for this summary? Or is none needed?]
None of these efforts to discredit Rind contradict the simple fact Heather Ulrich et al. replicated the study in 2005, and came up with the identical results. That is very powerful information! I am delighted to read that you [Truthinwriting] see the importance of including the Ulrich replication in the Introduction. ... Radvo (talk) 03:30, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
[End of all Paste]
New text: Here is my tentative composite from all of above, that may fail Wikipedia's verification requirement, but maybe this can be revised with the texts from reliable sources here. This is the entire Introduction, including some clarifying changes to the first and second paragraph.
Revisions, comments, suggestions, and objections of all editors are invited for discussion here. Radvo ( talk) 00:26, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
About the edit contributed by Legitimus on December 15, 2011.
She added to the 'Findings in brief' section: "The definition of CSA varied significantly between samples, most including victims as old as 17, and also included non-contact offenses (such as exhibitionism)." [1]
About the last clause: "The [Rind et al. 1998] definition of CSA ...included non-contact offenses (such as exhibitionism)."
On page 29, the word "offenses" does not appear. "Offenses" is a legal term. We don't have information that all of these acts of CSA were legally prosecuted. The many samples were college students, not prisoners. To avoid introducing confusion, a non-legal term might be used instead of "offenses."
Rind et al. 1998 states: "Types of CSA ... varied from study to study, including [CSA] acts such as an invitation to do something sexual, exhibitionism, fondling, masturbation, oral sex, attempted intercourse, and completed intercourse." The researchers also added: "the prevalence of less severe types is likely to be underestimated."( Rind 1998, page 30)
The common sense implication of including the "non-contact offenses (such as exhibitionism)" clause is that Rind et al. used a definition of CSA that was too broad, and the overly broad definition of CSA included everything, 17 year olds (who are not children), invitations to sex, and, maybe, including the kitchen sink! So the reader of the Wikipedia might come to the conclusion, as expected by common sense, that Rind's faulty and varied definitions of CSA were the reason why the "CSA construct" failed to predict expected harm in the effect size calculations.
However, such an implication, perhaps wrongly suggested by including this clause, is not supported by the study itself on page 44-45. "Multiple regression analyses showed that the intensity of the relationship between CSA and adjustment varied reliably as a function of gender, level of consent, and the interaction of these two factors. ... It is noteworthy that neither the level of contact nor the interaction between gender and level of contact was related to intensity. These latter results failed to provide support for the common [sense] belief that contact sex is more harmful than noncontact sex or that contact sex for girls is especially harmful"[underlining added to the original].
"The near-zero correlation between penetration and outcome is consistent with the multiple regression analysis finding that contact sex did not moderate adjustment. This result provides empirical support for Finkelhor's (1979 , p. 103) [Finkelhor,D. (1979). Sexually victimized children. New York: The Free Press.Page 103] observation that our society's view of intercourse as the most damaging form of CSA is 'a well-ingrained prejudice' unsupported by research." To ensure that the Wikipedia article does not wrongly validate factual misinformation about what the study reports and perpetuate a "well-ingrained prejudice," (identified by Finkelhor) the clause identified here from the Findings in Brief section should be carefully balanced with information that comes from Rind et al. 1998 (pages 29, 30, 44, 45) and Finkelhor 1979 (page 103).
Since this section is entitled, Findings in brief, it reflects what is presented in Rind et al. 1998. Information that contradicts the presentation of Rind et al. 1998 and Finkelhor 1979, is not included in this "Findings in Brief" section, but is included in the article in other sections. The way the text now reads may correctly reflect the "Findings in brief", but that one identified clause may need additional balance information, so the reader does not make a wrong inference that the Rind et al. 1998 results came from so many non-contact offenses (that the reader may wrongly think are less likely to be harmful).
I may not have phrased this fully, tactfully or NPOV enough. I may not have the wording above exactly correct, according to other pages of Rind 1998 or various Wikipedia guidelines. If so, I apologize. Please check and correct. This is a work in progress on the TALK page, and other editors are invited to correct and improve this information with additional text, corrections, and page numbers. Radvo ( talk) 17:25, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
Truthinwriting responds: . Happy New Year! (and more thoughts, responses, & comments)
If the "several" versus "a number of" versus <the actual number of samples&participants> is settled, skip to my next paragraph now. If it is still being discussed: I have one of the Oxford English dictionaries on my computer and it specifically lists "a number of" as meaning "several", which it specifically defines as "more than two but not many". My sense growing up in the U.S. is that several is usually referring to something in the single digits and a number of might be larger but still carries the implication of relatively-speaking, few. Hence as I mentioned before "a number of" appears to be incorrect, the exact numbers are objective and neutral and provide facts from which a reader can judge the scope for themself, hence the exact numbers seem to be the way to go.
Regarding the concern about "valorizing" the study, I don't see how any of the edits being discussed would valorize anything. The two topics were: including the exact number of samples/participants and the wording "designed to be nationally representative". These are both objective facts and are important, basic information for the Wikipedia reader. I doubt readers would see either as valorizing, but if they did it would probably be because they (i.e., the reader) were drawing a conclusion based on the facts. As I understand it, Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia that provides facts with a NPOV, so that people can draw their own conclusions. So as long as we maintain a NPOV, provide relevant facts, and keep our personal interpretations to a minimum, we should be on solid ground for informing the public and meeting the goals of both Wikipedia and the page. So in summary on this "valorizing" issue, I don't see any problem; the biggest danger, perhaps, is that we'll selectively omit facts that readers should have to make informed conclusions (hence my bias for always including more information, and more specific information, rather than less; this should also help minimize concerns about cherry-picking).
Regarding the "attorney use"-type material in the Lead, I have nothing really new to say. There must have been concerns about change or there would have been no controversy, but we need to have verifiable sources for the page. Hence I still favor deletion or rewording to an indefinite-phrasing that will not need sourcing, perhaps something like: "Perhaps the controversy occurred, in part, because of concern about the use of the study to argue for changes in the law ...". Writing it that way ("Perhaps ..., in part, ...") might allow the basic idea to be included but reduce problems with sourcing. Or would this still need to be sourced? Radvo offered an "off the cuff" possible phrasing and asked for comments/edits, following is my quick adjustment of that (posted above at 00:15, 27 December 2011). Mostly I just removed a few adjectives that could be interpreted as unsourced conclusions and refocused the wording on the 1998 study which was where the controversy was focused (if memory serves, there were few, if any, criticisms of the national study).
"There had been concern, expressed on radio talk shows, in right wing advocacy organizations, in newspaper and magazine articles, and even in the U.S. Congress. Critics appeared to fear that the Rind et al. 1998 meta-analysis could be used to advocate effectively for change in the age of consent laws. Concern was expressed about possible injustice for victims of CSA, and that the controversial results of the Rind et al. study might be misused in court, without appropriate skepticism, to the detriment of victims of CSA."
I read the sourced pages of the Spiegel book (thanks for pointing out they are available on the web!), and they do not support the current wording, but they might partially support the above wording. However, if the above is okay without sources, then perhaps that is the way to go.
Radvo suggested a revised version of the Lead (posted above on 00:26, 29 December 2011). I have no major objections to it as a replacement, though I have a lot of minor word-choice type suggestions I will want to make if we use it. I won't offer those suggestions now, since it will be a waste of time if we don't move toward that offering and I want to relax more during this winter break, but I support it and I'd be happy to go over it and repost it here if people want to see how I recommend it be adjusted.
Re: alternatives to the word "offenses": That word does imply a legal offense, especially given the mention of laws, Congress, and so on in the upper part of the page, hence we should avoid it where practical. Additionally, many of the events that were categorized as CSA might not even have been illegal in the jurisdiction where they occurred, hence the page should probably avoid anything that indicates something was illegal or not, unless we are sure about it (e.g., a sexual relationship between a 16-year-old and a 26-year-old might be legal but categorized as CSA under one of the CSA definitions used by the researchers). As for alternative wording: "event", "incident", or "experience" might work, especially if preceded by the adjective "sexual".
The sentence in question is currently worded: "The definition of CSA varied significantly between samples, most including victims as old as 17, and also included non-contact offenses (such as exhibitionism)."
I think any of the three above alternatives works well here. My larger concern with this sentence is the use of the word "victims". Many of these people did not view themselves as victims and in a case such as the example above (16 w/ 26) the word victim would just be incorrect. Hence I suggest changing victim to individuals or people, since victim would violate NPOV and be incorrect in many cases.
The most recent concern raised dealt with concern about misrepresenting the makeup of the samples (e.g., all having overly wide definitions) and that this may have been careless or a fault of Rind et al. (at least, I think that was the concern; I was not clear on exactly which phrase was at issue). For the most part, the data and issue related to this probably belongs as a separate entry in the "Criticism and response" section, rather than in the "Findings in brief" section. Hence I suggest someone put together a sourced "Criticism and response" sub-section titled something like Definitional issues, and include a sourced criticism (I'm sure I can find one for this) with a sourced Rind et al. response (or relevant information from the original article, if it is there; again, I'm sure I can find this if I look for it). Truthinwriting ( talk) 10:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
This section is for discussing issues around definitions, or definitional issues.
Define "CSA": The definitions of CSA varied among 59 studies
Ames, A. & Houston, D.A., "Legal, social, and biological definitions of pedophilia," Archives of Sexual Behavior, vol. 19, 1990, pp. 333-342.
Researchers from Indiana University elaborate on the distinction between child molestation and pedophilia, writing that confusion of the two hinders scientific understanding.
Feierman, J., "Introduction and A Biosocial Overview," in Feierman, J., ed., Pedophilia: Biosocial Dimensions, New York: Springer-Verlag, 1990a, pp. 1-68.
Jay Feierman of the University of New Mexico defines pedophilia, pedosexual behavior, ephebophilia, hebephilia, and ephebosexual behavior. He also discusses the relationship between adult-minor sexual behavior and child sexual abuse in terms of consent and harm.
Fergusson, D.M. & Mullen, P.E., Childhood sexual abuse: An evidence based perspective, Thousand Oaks, California: Sage Publications, 1999.
David M. Fergusson and Paul E. Mullen describe the way in which CSA is defined based on normative moral standards, and explain why there can never be a single universal definition of CSA. They criticize the popular belief among professionals and the public that CSA is a syndrome identifiable by certain symptoms. They also find fault with "trite conclusions" about CSA that are "chanted like sacred mantras." They propose a straightforward scientific approach to definitional problems.
Freund, K., "Assessment of pedophilia," in Cook, M. & Howells, K. (Eds.), Adult sexual interest in children, London: Academic Press, 1981, pp. 139-179.
Kurt Freund of the University of Toronto makes a distinction between pedophilia and hebephilia, and describes misleading conclusions that result from criminological research which confuses pedophilia with pedosexual behavior.
Green, R., “Is pedophilia a mental disorder?”, Archives of Sexual Behavior, vol. 31, no. 6, 2002, pp. 467-471.
British sexologist Richard Green describes changing definitions of pedophilia in successive editions of DSM and writes that the current definition is logically incoherent. He writes that it fails to meet the DSM’s own criteria for classification as a mental disorder.
Haugaard, J.J. & Emery, R.E., "Methodological issues in child sexual abuse research," Child Abuse & Neglect, vol. 13, 1989, pp. 89-100.
University of Virginia researchers describe their study which found that the definition of CSA significantly affects findings regarding the prevalence and consequences of CSA.
Okami, P. & Goldberg, A., "Personality Correlates of Pedophilia: Are They Reliable Indicators?", Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 29, No. 3, 1992, pp. 297-328.
UCLA researchers describe common inconsistent usage of the terms child and pedophilia--usage based on law and morality rather than science. They explain in detail why sex offenders against children are most likely a very different group of people from pedophiles. They also criticize the use of terms that suggest violence to refer to adult-child sexual interactions when overwhelming data show a lack of force or violence in such interactions. They argue in favor of making a distinction between actual violence and moral violation.
Sandfort, T., Boys on their contacts with men: A study of sexually expressed friendships, New York: Global Academic Publishers, 1987.
University of Utrecht researcher Theodorus Sandfort defines children according to Dutch law as those under age 16, and accordingly defines pedophile and pedosexuality. He argues in favor of limiting the term abuse to situations in which the adult uses his power or some other method to compel the child to have sex with him.
West, D.J. & Woodhouse, T.P., "Sexual encounters between boys and adults," in Li, C.K., West, D.J., & Woodhouse, T.P., Children’s sexual encounters with adults, London: Duckworth, 1990, pp. 3-137.
British researchers describe varying definitions of "child" and "abuse" found among researchers, and argue against the use of the blanket term "abuse" for all sexual contacts between minors and adults. Criticism and Response
Truthinwriting wrote: The most recent concern raised dealt with concern about misrepresenting the makeup of the samples (e.g., all having overly wide definitions) and that this may have been careless or a fault of Rind et al. (at least, I think that was the concern; I was not clear on exactly which phrase was at issue). For the most part, the data and issue related to this probably belongs as a separate entry in the "Criticism and response" section... Hence I suggest someone put together a sourced "Criticism and response" sub-section titled something like Definitional issues, and include a sourced criticism (I'm sure I can find one for this) with a sourced Rind et al. response (or relevant information from the original article, if it is there; again, I'm sure I can find this if I look for it). Truthinwriting (talk) 10:26, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
Radvo wrote: The sexual experiences (CSA) ... included verbal "invitations to do something sexual" and exhibitionism, both of which do not involve [any] touching. Go to last section: Appendix, to see a list of the definitions.
See also the Section above entitled: Request for balance, for one phrase, found in the 'Findings in brief' Section. Also, non-legal alternative sought for the word "offenses."
[end quote]
Define "Child" The Definition of "the child" in CSA varied in the 59 studies, sometimes using the legal definition and sometimes using the biological definition.
Criticism and Response
Radvo wrote: Twenty of the 59 studies classified adolescents as old as 16 or 17 [years old] as "children" confusing the legal definition of the child (or the definition of the legal "minor") with the biological definition. See the column three of the appendix of footnote 1; http://www.ipce.info/library_3/rbt/metaana.htm
Define "Offenses" Do we use that here in this article only as its meaning in the law?
Radvo ( talk) 00:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
Flyer22 asked me to have a look, I'm only just getting to it.
The page above is so horribly long I am reluctant to even try to read it. My preference is to edit the main page boldly and see what the result is. I've made some changes; the biggest difference is to remove the numbers - these sorts of details are appropriate for the body, not the lead. Even for the body, the numbers aren't necessarily a great idea (it would help if they were commented on by other sources to indicate if, and why they are significant) as it's a lot of detail for what is essentially a methodological issue.
The actual changes since November 12th have been relatively minimal ( after mine). The biggest one is obviously the addition of the "findings in brief" section. I don't think the section is a great idea - it's too much detail, and the general reader of wikipedia would lack the background and context to know if the findings mentioned are good or bad. I think it would be better to interstitch the relevant details with the criticisms rather than attempt to duplicate the paper's abstract.
I've been looking for an excuse to review this page for a while now, I'll use this interest as a kick in the ass. I'll see if I have the leisure time to work on a rewrite. If my edits were excessively objectionable, then consider this a blanket permission to revert and (sigh) direct me to the appropriate section of the talk page above. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 21:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
The Rind et al. controversy was one of the moral panics, spread by the media and the advocacy groups, from time to time, this panic unique because it involves a jargon-laden mathematical based article in the scientific literature, Few people have access to the article, have read it, or would understand it even if they did. They rely on people they trust to interpret it for them. This moral panic followed similar well documented moral panics around Satanic ritual abuse and Day-care sex-abuse hysteria in the 1980's and early 1990's. These hysteriae and moral panics command considerable interest and are well documented in the Wikipedia. (See the McMartin_preschool_trial, the Kern county child abuse cases, the Outreau trial a similar case in France, Peter Hugh McGregor Elliscase, a similar case in New Zealand, the Wee Care Nursery School case, the Wenatchee child abuse prosecutions, the South Ronaldsay child abuse scandal a similar legal case from rural Scotland. People did serious time in prison, but many of the so called perpetrators were exonerated in the end. These moral panics were followed in the 1990's by a very different kind of moral panic that involved Dissociative identity disorder, Multiple Personality Disorder, confabulation, recovered memory syndrome, False memory syndrome, and similar Memory Controversies. These things got the clinicians involved in them in serious civil law suits, and they were losing their shirts. This maybe even involved Dissociative identity disorder in popular culture; many enjoy a good mystery. Some of this was focused on remembering childhood incest, as a form of therapy. The psychiatrists, psychotherapists, and clinicians, who were involved in the later, were in 1999 creating and maintaining the controversy around the Rind et al. report (working thru the legislatures, through Stephanie Dallam, and several their advocacy organizations, many named in this article). The clinicians were being hit with law suits for psychiatric malpractice, and saw Rind's work as a threat in court that had to be neutralized. No one was being imprisoned, but financial security for some therapists was being seriously threatened. So they brought out the big guns, and put Stephanie Dallam out front. Social psychologist [ Carol Tarvis] called them on this from the very start, offering this interesting detail: "These clinicians want to kill the Rind study because they fear that it will be used to support malpractice claims against their fellow therapists." Dr. Tarvis wrote in Society magazine [8]: "Indeed, a group of them, whose members read like a "Who's Who" in the multiple personality disorder and recovered-memories business, made this fear explicit in a memo to the CEO of the American Psychological Association: "In addition to the fact that we, as a group, wish to protect the integrity of psychotherapy, we also want to protect good psychotherapists from attack and from financial ruin as a result of [civil law] suits that are costly both financially and emotionally."
This is just a section to list the sources that might be found that are not currently integrated on the page. Don't bother using the {{ reflist}} template, it just makes things more complicated. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 14:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
Our ability to comment, summarize or discuss may be hamstrung by a lack of full-text sources, expecially to dozens of articles in the professional journals. We may need some help sorting thru all this, and picking out what is most useful. So, just to get things started, I have included convenience links to web sites until we can sort out how editors can access the full text in the professional journals. If this is not permitted for temprary use on a TALK page and forbidden by Wikipedia policy, please let me know what the policy is. I want to work completely within the rules and policies. Radvo.
WLU kindly contributed this chart (below) to the Rind et al. Controversy on September 29, 2009. To save editors unnecessary work, I returned this chart here from Archive 1. It seems that this material was not used. Possibly because of lack of interest by those who have access to the journals, and/or the lack of access to the full text of the articles by those who have the interest. Radvo
Citation | Year | Used |
---|---|---|
Rind, B (2000). "Science versus orthodoxy: Anatomy of the congressional condemnation of a scientific article and reflections on remedies for future ideological attacks". Applied and Preventive Psychology. 9 (4): 211–226.
doi:
10.1016/S0962-1849(00)80001-3. {{
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|
2000 | 0 |
Spiegel, D (2000). "The price of abusing children and numbers". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (2): 63–6. doi: 10.1007/s12119-000-1026-4. | 2000 | 0 |
Rind, B (2001). "Moralistic psychiatry, procrustes' bed, and the science of child sexual abuse: A response to Spiegel". Sexuality & Culture. 5 (1): 79–89.
doi:
10.1007/s12119-001-1012-5. {{
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|
2001 | 0 |
Sher, KJ (2002). "Publication of Rind et al. (1998). The editors' perspective".
The American Psychologist. 57 (3): 206–10.
PMID
11905121. {{
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|
2002 | 0 |
Rind, B (1999). "Interpretation of research on sexual abuse of boys".
JAMA. 281 (23): 2185.
PMID
10376568. {{
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|
1999 | 0 |
Oellerich, TD (2000). "Rind, Tromovitch, and Bauserman: Politically incorrect—Scientifically correct". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (2): 67–81. doi: 10.1007/s12119-000-1027-3. | 2000 | 0 |
Rind, B (2000). "Debunking the false allegation of "statistical abuse": A reply to Speigel". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (2): 101–111.
doi:
10.1007/s12119-000-1029-1. {{
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2000 | 0 |
NOTE:Conference presentation, dubious reliability; I think it's the one cited by Salter
|
1998 | 0 |
Speigel, D (2000). "Real effects of real child sexual abuse". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (4): 99–105. doi: 10.1007/s12119-000-1006-8. | 2000 | 0 |
Hyde, JS (2003). "The use of meta-analysis in understanding the effects of child sexual abuse". Sexual development in childhood: Volume 7 of The Kinsey Institute series.
Indiana University Press. pp. 82–91.
ISBN
0253342430. {{
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2003 | 0 |
Baird, BN (2002). "Politics, operant conditioning, Galileo, and the American Psychological Association's response to Rind et al. (1998)". The American Psychologist. 57 (3): 189–92. PMID 11905117. | 2002 | 0 |
Grover, S (2003). "On Power Differentials and Children's Rights: A Dissonance Interpretation of the Rind and Associates (1998) Study on Child Sexual Abuse". Ethical Human Sciences and Services. 5 (1): 21–33. | 2003 | 0 |
Pittenger, DJ (2003). "Intellectual freedom and editorial responsibilities within the context of controversial research". Ethics & Behavior. 13 (2): 105–25. PMID 14552312. | 2003 | 0 |
Mirkin, H (2000). "Sex, science, and sin: The Rind report, sexual politics and American scholarship". Sexuality & Culture. 4 (2): 82–100. doi: 10.1007/s12119-000-1028-2. | 2000 | 0 |
Sternberg, RJ (2002). "Everything you need to know to understand the current controversies you learned from psychological research. A comment on the Rind and Lilienfeld controversies". The American Psychologist. 57 (3): 193–7. PMID 11905118. | 2002 | 0 |
I have to quit now. I will tweak this page and check the links another time. Radvo ( talk) 00:16, 6 January 2012 (UTC)
Unless there is discussion that leads me to hold off or change my plan, in a few days I plan to make the following four adjustments to the introductory paragraphs on the article page. For readers looking for a concise read of this post, items (1), (2), and (3) are probably not contentious, and the result of doing items (4), (5) and (6) are presented in the last paragraph below.
(1) The first sentence says the 1998 paper was based on "several" samples, but this is not correct. I plan to adjust the wording to include the specific data from the primary analyses. Current wording: "...several samples of college students."; proposed wording: "...58 independent samples of college students containing data on over 15,000 individuals.".
(2) The second sentence of the introduction mentions the 1997 national meta-analysis, but provides almost no information about it. To have informed readers of Wikipedia who have the relevant background to understand the controversy, I plan to add an additional phrase at the end of the current sentence which lets readers know the scope of that article in a parallel fashion to the prior sentence on the 1998 college paper. Suggested addition: "... that examined 10 independent samples designed to be nationally representative based on data from more than 8,500 participants."
(3) The second paragraph uses the phrasing "the construct of CSA was questionably valid;". I think that wording my be hard to understand for some readers, hence I plan to change it to: "the construct of CSA as it had been defined by researchers was of questionable scientific validity;".
(4) The first sentence of the last paragraph contains the wording "...and denied that their findings implied current moral...". The use of the word denied has a negative valence suggesting Rind et al. acted improperly. The word denied might be appropriate in other contexts (e.g., when they responded to a criticism) but this intro is not yet dealing with specific criticisms. Hence I plan to change the wording to: "... and indicated that their findings did not imply current moral..."
I hope to make the above four edits in a few days.
(5) The last sentence of the intro is currently presented with two sources. It currently reads: "Numerous age of consent reform organizations have quoted the paper in support of their efforts to lower or rescind age of consent laws, and defense attorneys have used the study to argue for minimizing harm in child sexual abuse cases." This sentence strikes me as problematic in various ways. I have not read Spiegel's 2003 book (nor do I have a copy). Is anyone here familiar with it? I do have the other source as a word-searchable PDF (Ondersma et al. 2001), but it does not seem to mention anything about defense attorney usage.
Even if it is true that the Rind et al. paper was used in court cases, if that issue is to be raised on this Wikipedia page shouldn't it be balanced with more information and reasoning? After all, courts should use scientific evidence when it is available, hence more accurate wording might be "...and defense attorneys have appropriately used the study to argue that harm did not occur in their client's case, due to the willingness of the minor's participation and the enjoyment the young person received as a result of their interactions." No, don't worry, I am not suggesting we actually write anything like that on the page but I present it here to make the point that unless we know what those court cases were about, the current wording is potentially biasing or outright incorrect (e.g., you can not minimize harm when there is no harm). Further, the Rind et al. paper may have been used by prosecutors as well, since it provides information on when harm might occur and when it might not (hence only mentioning defense attorney usage seems unbalanced regarding something we probably have no reliable information about).
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help)[Truthinwriting continues:] Additionally, I do not see a need for that particular sentence in the intro. Given that the intro reads fine without it, I suggest it be deleted since that will save a lot of work and contention for everyone. If something like the sentence should stay, perhaps a simple edit will make it less problematic. For example: "Numerous age of consent reform organizations have quoted the paper in support of their efforts to lower or rescind age of consent laws, and attorneys have used the study in court."
Feedback on this is welcome and desired.
(6) The issue of moving a reference to the Ulrich replication study higher up into the page was also raised at one point. I don't know if that is critical or not, but I think it is a good idea and putting it at the end of the intro makes sense to me. I have not yet obtained a copy of the Ulrich paper hence I have only read the abstract, but even that seems clear enough to add a note about it at the end of the intro.
Considering (4), (5), and (6), a new final paragraph of the intro might read something like: "Rind et al. concluded with a statement that even though CSA may not result in harm, this does not mean it is not wrong or morally repugnant behavior and indicated that their findings did not imply current moral and legal prohibitions against CSA should be changed. [Delete: Numerous age of consent reform organizations have quoted the paper in support of their efforts to lower or rescind age of consent laws, and attorneys have used the study in court.] Ulrich et al.[cite], seven years after the publication of the Rind et al. meta-analysis, published a replication of it in the Scientific Review of Mental Health Practice that confirmed Rind et al.'s main findings." Truthinwriting ( talk) 01:58, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
[Comment by Radvo:]
I just made four edits as per my TALK posting a week ago.
(1) Re: "several". Although "a number of" or similar wording is an improvement over "several", it still carries an implication of "not that many, at least, relatively speaking". The example of G-type stars is a good example, because is shows that in comparison to type M & K stars, relatively speaking, there are few G-type stars. Rind et al. used nearly 100% of the extent college-sample studies, their search of the literature was nearly exhaustive (regrettably, I suspect my source for this was one of their talks, rather than the paper itself). Although discussions may still be ongoing, since it sounds like there is no serious objection to using the exact numbers from the article I have edited them in as I proposed a week ago.
(2) I didn't notice any objections to (2), though perhaps they were waiting for a decision on (1) to be made first. In any case, I did add the parallel information on the national meta-analysis, as proposed.
(3) I didn't notice any objections to (3). I adjusted the wording as proposed.
(4) I didn't notice any objections to (4). I adjusted the wording as proposed.
Those four items constitute the editing changes I made today.
Regarding (5: numerous age of consent reform organizations / attorney usage): I still think the current wording is problematic for reasons presented earlier. I am now wondering if a complete rewrite with that basic info included might be a better way to go vis-a-vis consensus among us? This is just off-the-top-of-my-head, but perhaps something like: "After publication of the Rind et al. findings, there has been concern that the paper would be used by organizations that wish to change the age of consent laws (e.g., to lower the legal age of consent or to eliminate an age of consent for willing sexual relationships). Additionally there has been concern that the article would be misused in court to argue that little or no harm occurred, when in fact harm likely did occur in a given case before the court." That wording probably needs work, but perhaps this way we can get away from some of the problems that have been being discussed.
Regarding (6: moving Ulrich replication higher into the Intro): I still think this is a good idea, but I am waiting for the dust to settle on (5) first. :-) Truthinwriting ( talk) 07:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Following are some quick thoughts/responses to the above.
Samples versus Studies: A researcher might collect multiple samples (e.g., male and female; college and community and prison) but publish the research as a single article. In this case there is one study, but more than one sample. A researcher might collect one sample, but publish multiple articles based on the data. In this case there is one sample, but more than one study. Generally, scientists want to know the number of independent samples, not the number of publications.
In casual writing, "studies" and "samples" are often used interchangeably, but perhaps we should be more specific.
A note on "independent" samples: If a researcher collects some data (1 sample) and publishes results, then collects more data in the same way and adds it to the prior data set (still 1 sample, but now it has a larger N), then the two samples (the earlier one and the larger later one) are not independent because there is overlap in their makeup. In general, non-independent samples are extremely problematic to deal with, since data that was in the earlier waves will be over represented if the non-independent samples are combined.
Additional note on the meaning of independent in Rind et al.: The above bulleted list looks correct (but I did not check it), but note that the independence is by bullet. A given sample may have been used in different analyses (e.g., compared with controls for the main meta-analysis, and used again for tabulating retrospectively recalled reaction data). Thus the 250+ number sounds too large and might be confusing. However, to capture the scope of the Rind et al. analyses, listing the totals separately, as in the above bulleted list, might be good.
College studies prior to 1966: I believe there was exactly one. Landis (1956). Rind et al. were criticized for including it. I believe more information on the Landis study and the controversy should be added to the page, but I have not started to work on that yet (but hope to within the foreseeable future).
Controversy over using so many studies and/or dissertations: I don't recall there being any controversy over this, or perhaps I just missed it. That they went to the trouble of collecting all the dissertations and theses and including them, and statistically comparing the results of the published versus unpublished research, is great. This information might be good to add somewhere, but I don't recall it being part of the controversy. Hence my quick thought is, do we want it in the Intro or Findings in Brief section? I always lean toward more information is better, hence I think adding it to the Intro is a good idea.
Re: comment on (5) above: As I wrote that quick possible replacement text, I realized I didn't have any sources for it. Perhaps that is a problem; if so, we are back to deletion as the way to go. Something like you wrote (Radvo?) above is fine too, with a little adjustment, but might be hard to source as well. Nevertheless, the controversy probably would not have occurred if people were not worried about some sort of changes occurring, hence there must be some sources somewhere. I'll keep my eyes open. Truthinwriting ( talk) 07:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
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