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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Battle of Damascus (November 2012) was copied or moved into Rif Dimashq offensive with this edit on 01:42, 20 November 2012â€. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The Damascus clashes page is just a compilation of various hit and run operations and some counter attacks. It comes from November 2011 until the Battle of Damscus.
After the battle of Damascus, there is no return to the previous situation. The Syrian Army has started a whole operation to crush the insurgents and it is different from all the operation launched before. -- DanielUmel ( talk) 11:18, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The notability of the article is out of the question. Many newspaper are writing about the event, as everyone is able to see that and if someone want's to create a new, more detailed article about the event even better. Nevertheless, this article gives more details about the operation and should remain; with time it could be even more expanded. -- Wüstenfuchs 12:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
You could rename it the Rif Damashq offensive, because the very first source in the article calls it an offensive.
Sopher99 (
talk) 12:08, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I think that "Counter-Insurgency" is just fine. There are various article with a similiar name, like Counter-insurgency operations during the Second Chechen War also some anti-partisan operations during the WW2. Also, it's impossible that this name is someone's POV. -- Wüstenfuchs 12:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I would go with Rif Damashq offensive (2012). Also, I would put the start date as 17 August, the day the military started to clear the towns and villages on the outskirts of Damascus from where the military airport was mortared by the rebels. EkoGraf ( talk) 19:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Is this battle over?-- Vojvodae please be free to write :) 22:00, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
It's not over yet. From what I've been told this is the most important battle taking place at the moment. The main force of the Syrian Army is concentrating on the Damascus region and the rebels have congregated around Harasta and Douma. It's a shame more attention isn't being placed on this battle from credible wikipedia worthy sources. 62.31.145.100 ( talk) 13:20, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Well the Army has entered Harasta pro-government sides are claiming that they have already cleared certain areas of the FSA. Also anti-government activists from Homs are claiming that the Army has is sending units down south to Damascus through a route that would take it through the Northern part of the rebel held eastern ghouta. They might be trying to sandwhich them but thats just speculation on my part. What ever is going on this offensive looks like it's ending. 164.11.203.58 ( talk) 03:48, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
We should rename this article. It's name is wrong, this article also mentiones battles outside the Rif Dimashq Governorate. I'd propose something like Army offensive in South Syria. -- Wüstenfuchs 18:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I moved the article and made the new lead, hope it's fine. -- Wüstenfuchs 15:49, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
What should be the scope of this article? The new article title gives the impression that the article covers all clashes between govt and rebel forces in Rif Dimashq, but fighting in the province actually began on November 2011. Also there is a degree of forking between this article and this one: 2011–2012 Damascus clashes. To solve these problems, I propose we merge the content in "2011–2012 Damascus clashes" to this article. The clashes in in Idlib province all go in one article: 2011–2012 Idlib Governorate clashes. The situation is the same for articles of other provinces. -- FutureTrillionaire ( talk) 21:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
What is the nature of this "offensive", is it possible to call it a wide-range offensive? The Syrian Army (SA) had launched the offensive throughout the whole Governorate, but not the rebels, they had few attacks, but nothing that could be equalised with the SA offensive. My lead, that I wrote, is thus misleading. I did, however, added the explanation that the rebels, unlike the SA, failed to make any significant gain, but Sopher, I believe, claimed they did, refering to certain agricultural field with any significance at all. I avoided further discussion about the significance of such place.
-- Wüstenfuchs 13:42, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Why can't this be part of the Battle of Damascus? Did the battle stop with Damascus Volcano? There was always fighting in the capital it just has happened to had increased in July-August and November-present. ( Cjblair ( talk) 11:54, 2 December 2012 (UTC))
I think we should change the Darayya massacre to Battle of Darayya because there are still fightings in Darayya and they are the worst since the 1st battle of Damascus. Comment about this please Amedjay ( talk) 15:24, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Since the present article Rif Dimashq campaign is already a very long article, IMHO it is pointless to try to force the presently unfolding Damascus events into this article. It's difficult to read and difficult to edit. Moreover, since RS's claim that rebel/govt fighting has intensified in the last week or so, it seems to me that putting most of the late Nov/December Damascus events into Battle of Damascus (November 2012) is justified under WP:SPLIT and by the RS's.
I've done a bit of work to clean up Battle of Damascus (November 2012) (avoid duplication of "background" with 2011–2012_Damascus_clashes; some content tidying; new refs directly in reflist section; Wikipedia source removed from box at top). I have suggested an interim name at the article's talk page, since "Battle of Damascus (November 2012)" does not accurately describe what is well-sourced as an intensification of fighting in late November and continuing into early December, and more weakly sourced as an intensification in early/mid November. I suggest discussion on the proposed interim name to go on that talk page. Boud ( talk) 00:10, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok guys, since this has become a hot topic I have a totally new proposal. The main central article on all the fighting in Damascus capital and Rif Dimashq province will be 2011–2012 Damascus clashes. The sub-articles to that article will be Battle of Damascus/Operation Damascus Volcano, Darayya massacre, 1st Rif Dimashq offensive (military August-September; result - indecisive), 2nd Rif Dimashq offensive (rebel November-present; result - ongoing). So in essence I am proposing to split this article up into a 1st offensive and 2nd offensive articles, the military one and rebel one. Since the issue of the scope of this article has been hotly debated. And some even proposed that this article cover all the way since November 2011, but 2011–2012 Damascus clashes already does this. So, can we agree on splitting this article into two offensives? Since we already agreed that there have in fact been two offensives. And the 2nd offensive article would of course also include the current sporadic clashes in the capital, although they are still minimal. EkoGraf ( talk) 15:37, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Just to clarify my understanding of the proposal, especially going by Template:Campaignbox_Syrian_civil_war:
This looks reasonable to me. I think I see where I was confused before: some work would need to be done in the cases where subarticles exist: the sections in 2011–2012 Damascus clashes should become short, referenced, NPOV summaries (more or less the leads) of the sub-articles. The other element of confusion is that the media are mostly saying "Damascus, Damascus" about the present events, but most editors here feel that the highway to the airport and the airport itself count more as "region" rather than city. This seems reasonable to me, modulo my almost total ignorance about Damascus and its surroundings. Boud ( talk) 21:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
i agree with you idea ecograk,this idea iss good to split it tothe first and second one the first is about the government one and the other about the rebel one Alhanuty ( talk) 21:46, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Battle of Damascus (November 2012) was copied or moved into Rif Dimashq offensive with this edit on 01:42, 20 November 2012â€. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
The Damascus clashes page is just a compilation of various hit and run operations and some counter attacks. It comes from November 2011 until the Battle of Damscus.
After the battle of Damascus, there is no return to the previous situation. The Syrian Army has started a whole operation to crush the insurgents and it is different from all the operation launched before. -- DanielUmel ( talk) 11:18, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
The notability of the article is out of the question. Many newspaper are writing about the event, as everyone is able to see that and if someone want's to create a new, more detailed article about the event even better. Nevertheless, this article gives more details about the operation and should remain; with time it could be even more expanded. -- Wüstenfuchs 12:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
You could rename it the Rif Damashq offensive, because the very first source in the article calls it an offensive.
Sopher99 (
talk) 12:08, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I think that "Counter-Insurgency" is just fine. There are various article with a similiar name, like Counter-insurgency operations during the Second Chechen War also some anti-partisan operations during the WW2. Also, it's impossible that this name is someone's POV. -- Wüstenfuchs 12:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I would go with Rif Damashq offensive (2012). Also, I would put the start date as 17 August, the day the military started to clear the towns and villages on the outskirts of Damascus from where the military airport was mortared by the rebels. EkoGraf ( talk) 19:19, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Is this battle over?-- Vojvodae please be free to write :) 22:00, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
It's not over yet. From what I've been told this is the most important battle taking place at the moment. The main force of the Syrian Army is concentrating on the Damascus region and the rebels have congregated around Harasta and Douma. It's a shame more attention isn't being placed on this battle from credible wikipedia worthy sources. 62.31.145.100 ( talk) 13:20, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Well the Army has entered Harasta pro-government sides are claiming that they have already cleared certain areas of the FSA. Also anti-government activists from Homs are claiming that the Army has is sending units down south to Damascus through a route that would take it through the Northern part of the rebel held eastern ghouta. They might be trying to sandwhich them but thats just speculation on my part. What ever is going on this offensive looks like it's ending. 164.11.203.58 ( talk) 03:48, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
We should rename this article. It's name is wrong, this article also mentiones battles outside the Rif Dimashq Governorate. I'd propose something like Army offensive in South Syria. -- Wüstenfuchs 18:32, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I moved the article and made the new lead, hope it's fine. -- Wüstenfuchs 15:49, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
What should be the scope of this article? The new article title gives the impression that the article covers all clashes between govt and rebel forces in Rif Dimashq, but fighting in the province actually began on November 2011. Also there is a degree of forking between this article and this one: 2011–2012 Damascus clashes. To solve these problems, I propose we merge the content in "2011–2012 Damascus clashes" to this article. The clashes in in Idlib province all go in one article: 2011–2012 Idlib Governorate clashes. The situation is the same for articles of other provinces. -- FutureTrillionaire ( talk) 21:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
What is the nature of this "offensive", is it possible to call it a wide-range offensive? The Syrian Army (SA) had launched the offensive throughout the whole Governorate, but not the rebels, they had few attacks, but nothing that could be equalised with the SA offensive. My lead, that I wrote, is thus misleading. I did, however, added the explanation that the rebels, unlike the SA, failed to make any significant gain, but Sopher, I believe, claimed they did, refering to certain agricultural field with any significance at all. I avoided further discussion about the significance of such place.
-- Wüstenfuchs 13:42, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Why can't this be part of the Battle of Damascus? Did the battle stop with Damascus Volcano? There was always fighting in the capital it just has happened to had increased in July-August and November-present. ( Cjblair ( talk) 11:54, 2 December 2012 (UTC))
I think we should change the Darayya massacre to Battle of Darayya because there are still fightings in Darayya and they are the worst since the 1st battle of Damascus. Comment about this please Amedjay ( talk) 15:24, 2 December 2012 (UTC)
Since the present article Rif Dimashq campaign is already a very long article, IMHO it is pointless to try to force the presently unfolding Damascus events into this article. It's difficult to read and difficult to edit. Moreover, since RS's claim that rebel/govt fighting has intensified in the last week or so, it seems to me that putting most of the late Nov/December Damascus events into Battle of Damascus (November 2012) is justified under WP:SPLIT and by the RS's.
I've done a bit of work to clean up Battle of Damascus (November 2012) (avoid duplication of "background" with 2011–2012_Damascus_clashes; some content tidying; new refs directly in reflist section; Wikipedia source removed from box at top). I have suggested an interim name at the article's talk page, since "Battle of Damascus (November 2012)" does not accurately describe what is well-sourced as an intensification of fighting in late November and continuing into early December, and more weakly sourced as an intensification in early/mid November. I suggest discussion on the proposed interim name to go on that talk page. Boud ( talk) 00:10, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Ok guys, since this has become a hot topic I have a totally new proposal. The main central article on all the fighting in Damascus capital and Rif Dimashq province will be 2011–2012 Damascus clashes. The sub-articles to that article will be Battle of Damascus/Operation Damascus Volcano, Darayya massacre, 1st Rif Dimashq offensive (military August-September; result - indecisive), 2nd Rif Dimashq offensive (rebel November-present; result - ongoing). So in essence I am proposing to split this article up into a 1st offensive and 2nd offensive articles, the military one and rebel one. Since the issue of the scope of this article has been hotly debated. And some even proposed that this article cover all the way since November 2011, but 2011–2012 Damascus clashes already does this. So, can we agree on splitting this article into two offensives? Since we already agreed that there have in fact been two offensives. And the 2nd offensive article would of course also include the current sporadic clashes in the capital, although they are still minimal. EkoGraf ( talk) 15:37, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Just to clarify my understanding of the proposal, especially going by Template:Campaignbox_Syrian_civil_war:
This looks reasonable to me. I think I see where I was confused before: some work would need to be done in the cases where subarticles exist: the sections in 2011–2012 Damascus clashes should become short, referenced, NPOV summaries (more or less the leads) of the sub-articles. The other element of confusion is that the media are mostly saying "Damascus, Damascus" about the present events, but most editors here feel that the highway to the airport and the airport itself count more as "region" rather than city. This seems reasonable to me, modulo my almost total ignorance about Damascus and its surroundings. Boud ( talk) 21:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
i agree with you idea ecograk,this idea iss good to split it tothe first and second one the first is about the government one and the other about the rebel one Alhanuty ( talk) 21:46, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:48, 21 July 2016 (UTC)