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Rick Titus (soccer). Please take a moment to review
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The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is consensus against moving the article as proposed, citing
WP:TIES and
WP:RETAIN. There was a late suggestion to change this to being the primary topic, but since that was not something considered by most participants, there's no consensus for it in this discussion. If editors wish to pursue that as a separate RM, they are welcome to do so. —
Amakuru (
talk)
15:43, 24 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on grounds of
WP:TIES and
WP:RETAIN. Titus was born a Canadian. For most of his career, he was a player or manager for college and professional teams in North America. He only played for the Trinidad and Tobago national football team for only one year. Therefore there is no compelling need to switch from the North American English word "soccer".
Zzyzx11 (
talk)
01:30, 9 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure
WP:TIES,
WP:ENGVAR work that way. ENGVAR says that Wikipedia has no preference for varieties of English. I feel this is the kind of issue that pops up frequently and could perhaps be formalised in some policy.
Mozzie (
talk)
10:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC)reply
It is formalized though! Basically, we don't swap varieties of English unless there is an obvious and overwhelming connection to one variety. As someone who seems to have spent the overwhelming majority of their career, and almost the entire focus of the article, in Canada, it's hard to make that argument.--
Yaksar(let's chat)16:11, 21 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment@
Nehme1499: once said: "Lebanon doesn't have its own English variant, unlike Canada. Were she born in Canada, and represented (for e.g.) Australia, then yes, I would use Australian English."
[2] – Trinidad and Tobago, like Australia and Canada, has its own English variant as the language has official status, so
Template: Use Trinidad and Tobago English is used, where the word is "football", not "soccer".--
MonFrontieres (
talk)
19:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - the player is a Trinidad and Tobago international, so we should therefore use Trinidad and Tobago English vocabulary. There, they say football instead of soccer.
Paul Vaurie (
talk)
23:11, 12 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Trinidad and Tobaco English convention largely follows British convention, where "soccer" is called "football". In a case when he is a
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the another option would be moving it to base name and making base name to "Rick Titus (disambiguation)" as per evidence of
pageviews.
180.244.120.76 (
talk)
07:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Opposeper
WP:TIES and
WP:RETAIN. As a current coach for a Canadian team, and with the vast majority of his career (nearly all of our article) surround his ties to Canadian soccer, the proposal would go against our naming policy. It's telling that almost all of our --
Yaksar(let's chat)20:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't know if TIES applies here, Titus chose to play for Trinidad and Tobago. The convention is to use the NT they play for to pick the disambiguator, or else all of the American and Canadian soccer players in Europe would use (footballer) as disambiguator - which is not the case.--
Ortizesp (
talk)
20:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The only ties to North America is Trinidad and Tobaco is a country located in the Carribean, hence part of North America. However, they have different English conventions from US/Canada, for example Trinidad English refers to "football" when telling about "soccer" (Trinidad and Tobago Football Association). If someone disagree, then why not moving the article as base name as he is already primary topic here?
182.1.228.64 (
talk)
21:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Are you looking at a different article? The overwhelming majority of the subject's notable career, including his current role, is Canadian. We devote a whopping two short sentences of the article to his time on the Trinidad and Tobago team -- it is exceedingly difficult to argue that the ties to Trinidad and Tobago for his notability and stronger. Therefore, we should at the very least be retaining this version. No one is arguing what they call it in Trinidad and Tobago, but rather that an exceedingly small part of his career does not overwhelm the parts for which he is notable.--
Yaksar(let's chat)23:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
We have pretty clear guidelines in place for varieties of English and ties. There's no reason why, among all factors, participation in a national team for even a brief and relatively less notable period would override all of our naming guidelines. That other players may perhaps have closer ties to one place or another, or were created at a page with a variety of English, doesn't really impact the application here.--
Yaksar(let's chat)03:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, we have clear guidelines for English variety, Titus is Trinidadian and therefore should use footballer. It's that simple. This is analogous to
John Brooks (soccer, born 1993) who spent his whole life, youth career and was born and raised in Germany, but we use (soccer) only because he plays for the USMNT, please refer to the discussions on his talk page.--
Ortizesp (
talk)
16:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
That is incorrect. We can assess TIES a lot of different ways, but there is certainly no rule of "however if someone plays for a national team for any period of time, regardless of whatever else they have done, that overrides all factors."--
Yaksar(let's chat)20:25, 21 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose per regional point of view. Trinidad and Tobago is located in North America and part of the Americas and therefore should using "soccer" spelling.
114.125.230.252 (
talk)
04:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Moved to "Rick Titus" without disambiguatorWP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies here. He was only people we know about Rick Titus. In the past 90 days, he has received 78% more pageviews compared to others named similar. I oppose moving it as footballer due to geographic reason.
116.206.35.21 (
talk)
23:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose due to two primary reasons:
1. Trinidad and Tobago is located in North America, where the term "soccer" is predominant than "football" (due to need to disambiguate between soccer and indigenous football), despite in Trinidad English, we called the term "football".
To be clear, while I also oppose the move it's not because Trinidad and Tobago doesn't use the term football. It's because for a subject where 99% of the article and their notable career is based in Canada, a short and far less notable period playing for the Trinidad and Tobago team doesn't suddenly and inherently override our ENGVAR, TIES, and RETAIN policies. That being said, I am not against a move to the base name Rick Titus.--
Yaksar(let's chat)16:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following
WikiProjects:
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article has been
automatically rated by a
bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Association football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trinidad and Tobago, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to the country of the
Republic of Trinidad and Tobago on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the
welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.Trinidad and TobagoWikipedia:WikiProject Trinidad and TobagoTemplate:WikiProject Trinidad and TobagoTrinidad and Tobago articles
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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is consensus against moving the article as proposed, citing
WP:TIES and
WP:RETAIN. There was a late suggestion to change this to being the primary topic, but since that was not something considered by most participants, there's no consensus for it in this discussion. If editors wish to pursue that as a separate RM, they are welcome to do so. —
Amakuru (
talk)
15:43, 24 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose on grounds of
WP:TIES and
WP:RETAIN. Titus was born a Canadian. For most of his career, he was a player or manager for college and professional teams in North America. He only played for the Trinidad and Tobago national football team for only one year. Therefore there is no compelling need to switch from the North American English word "soccer".
Zzyzx11 (
talk)
01:30, 9 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I'm not sure
WP:TIES,
WP:ENGVAR work that way. ENGVAR says that Wikipedia has no preference for varieties of English. I feel this is the kind of issue that pops up frequently and could perhaps be formalised in some policy.
Mozzie (
talk)
10:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC)reply
It is formalized though! Basically, we don't swap varieties of English unless there is an obvious and overwhelming connection to one variety. As someone who seems to have spent the overwhelming majority of their career, and almost the entire focus of the article, in Canada, it's hard to make that argument.--
Yaksar(let's chat)16:11, 21 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Comment@
Nehme1499: once said: "Lebanon doesn't have its own English variant, unlike Canada. Were she born in Canada, and represented (for e.g.) Australia, then yes, I would use Australian English."
[2] – Trinidad and Tobago, like Australia and Canada, has its own English variant as the language has official status, so
Template: Use Trinidad and Tobago English is used, where the word is "football", not "soccer".--
MonFrontieres (
talk)
19:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Support - the player is a Trinidad and Tobago international, so we should therefore use Trinidad and Tobago English vocabulary. There, they say football instead of soccer.
Paul Vaurie (
talk)
23:11, 12 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Support Trinidad and Tobaco English convention largely follows British convention, where "soccer" is called "football". In a case when he is a
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, the another option would be moving it to base name and making base name to "Rick Titus (disambiguation)" as per evidence of
pageviews.
180.244.120.76 (
talk)
07:14, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Opposeper
WP:TIES and
WP:RETAIN. As a current coach for a Canadian team, and with the vast majority of his career (nearly all of our article) surround his ties to Canadian soccer, the proposal would go against our naming policy. It's telling that almost all of our --
Yaksar(let's chat)20:39, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I don't know if TIES applies here, Titus chose to play for Trinidad and Tobago. The convention is to use the NT they play for to pick the disambiguator, or else all of the American and Canadian soccer players in Europe would use (footballer) as disambiguator - which is not the case.--
Ortizesp (
talk)
20:55, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The only ties to North America is Trinidad and Tobaco is a country located in the Carribean, hence part of North America. However, they have different English conventions from US/Canada, for example Trinidad English refers to "football" when telling about "soccer" (Trinidad and Tobago Football Association). If someone disagree, then why not moving the article as base name as he is already primary topic here?
182.1.228.64 (
talk)
21:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Are you looking at a different article? The overwhelming majority of the subject's notable career, including his current role, is Canadian. We devote a whopping two short sentences of the article to his time on the Trinidad and Tobago team -- it is exceedingly difficult to argue that the ties to Trinidad and Tobago for his notability and stronger. Therefore, we should at the very least be retaining this version. No one is arguing what they call it in Trinidad and Tobago, but rather that an exceedingly small part of his career does not overwhelm the parts for which he is notable.--
Yaksar(let's chat)23:26, 16 January 2022 (UTC)reply
We have pretty clear guidelines in place for varieties of English and ties. There's no reason why, among all factors, participation in a national team for even a brief and relatively less notable period would override all of our naming guidelines. That other players may perhaps have closer ties to one place or another, or were created at a page with a variety of English, doesn't really impact the application here.--
Yaksar(let's chat)03:17, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Yes, we have clear guidelines for English variety, Titus is Trinidadian and therefore should use footballer. It's that simple. This is analogous to
John Brooks (soccer, born 1993) who spent his whole life, youth career and was born and raised in Germany, but we use (soccer) only because he plays for the USMNT, please refer to the discussions on his talk page.--
Ortizesp (
talk)
16:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
That is incorrect. We can assess TIES a lot of different ways, but there is certainly no rule of "however if someone plays for a national team for any period of time, regardless of whatever else they have done, that overrides all factors."--
Yaksar(let's chat)20:25, 21 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose per regional point of view. Trinidad and Tobago is located in North America and part of the Americas and therefore should using "soccer" spelling.
114.125.230.252 (
talk)
04:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Moved to "Rick Titus" without disambiguatorWP:PRIMARYTOPIC applies here. He was only people we know about Rick Titus. In the past 90 days, he has received 78% more pageviews compared to others named similar. I oppose moving it as footballer due to geographic reason.
116.206.35.21 (
talk)
23:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Oppose due to two primary reasons:
1. Trinidad and Tobago is located in North America, where the term "soccer" is predominant than "football" (due to need to disambiguate between soccer and indigenous football), despite in Trinidad English, we called the term "football".
To be clear, while I also oppose the move it's not because Trinidad and Tobago doesn't use the term football. It's because for a subject where 99% of the article and their notable career is based in Canada, a short and far less notable period playing for the Trinidad and Tobago team doesn't suddenly and inherently override our ENGVAR, TIES, and RETAIN policies. That being said, I am not against a move to the base name Rick Titus.--
Yaksar(let's chat)16:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.