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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
@ ScienceFlyer: I saw you reverted two third-party quotes that I added regarding Mr. Ross’s lack of credentials in religion and his involvement in “abducting, confining and coercing people out of their newly chosen religious faith.” These two quotes were from a 2018 Report by Human Rights Without Fronter International. Your revert reasons were “no reliable support” and “dubiously-sourced material.”
But Human Rights without Frontier International is a reliable source. The U.S. Department of State has cited HRWF International multiple times in its annual County Reports on International Religious Freedom for China, Russia, Iran, Libya, among many countries, since 2016. A credible human rights organization’s perspective on Mr. Ross’s work should be included on this page. Thank you. Path2space ( talk) 23:37, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
I realize that after it was exposed that this bio was being edited by cult members there was an effort to safeguard against this happening in the future. The net result seems to be the historical freezing of this bio without updates.
Please note that my work did not end in 2004, but rather continued and expanded. I have been very active, which this bio does not reflect.
This would include appearing in numerous documentaries (e.g HBO "The Vow" and "Seduced" Starz see https://www.oxygen.com/true-crime-buzz/who-is-cult-expert-rick-ross-whats-his-connection-to-nxivm ), testifying at the criminal trial of cult leader Keith Raniere 9 see https://www.timesunion.com/nxivm/article/Cult-expert-testifies-about-his-dealings-with-13972283.php 0and working as part of the creative team for the videogame "Far Cry 5." See https://www.nine.com.au/entertainment/viral/far-cry-5-cult-expert-rick-ross/ea820842-96f3-47dd-8b24-a5ac2f286f4f
I have also continued to testify in court proceedings across the United States and have been qualified, accepted and testified as a court expert in 11 states , including United States Federal Court, subsequent to a Daubert Hearing. See https://casetext.com/case/noyes-v-kelly-services/
My intervention work also continues and perhaps my most popular appearance as a "cult deprogrammer" was for Vanity Fair with more than 3 million views. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLoVHyuYVBY Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 20:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
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Here we go again. Anonymous editors drop in to put something negative and/or misleading in my bio.
"A 2018 report by Human Rights Without Frontiers International includes a section on criticisms of Ross and his methodology. The report states, 'He [Rick Alan Ross] only has a high school diploma and does not have any education or credentials in religion.'"
The footnote for this addition is a dead link. There is nothing there.
This statement offers no historical context, but seems tied to anti-cult work in Israel. In fact, the Israeli Ministry of Social Affairs and Services sought my input for a policy paper titled "REPORT OF MINISTRY OF WELFARE AND SOCIAL SERVICES TEAM, AN EXAMINATION OF THE PHENOMENON OF CULTS IN ISRAEL" (March 2011) See https://culteducation.com/reference/general/AnExaminationOfThePhenomenonOfCultsInIsrael.pdf
Contained in the introduction of this report is the following:
The members of the Team wish to thank the researchers, counselors and other relevant parties who agreed to meet, who forwarded material, contributed their time and expressed their views, all in order to assist in the production of this report "from theory to practice". The following is only a partial list of the persons concerned, as, on account of the wish to maintain their privacy, we have elected not to publish the names of the families who appeared before the Committee.
victim families.
cult victims, a teacher in various disciplines and tutor of counseling training groups.
Institute" of Advanced Psychology in Tel Aviv.
Researcher.
* Rick Ross, Executive Director of the Rick. A. Ross Institute. [now known as the Cult Education Institute]
Family and Children's Services in New York City.
Moreover the criticism is historically inaccurate. In my bio it is noted that I have been appointed to national committees for the Union of Reform Judaism and served as the officially appointed Jewish representative on the Religious Advisory Committee to the Arizona Department of Corrections. I was also the program coordinator for Jewish Prisoner Program for Jewish Family and Childrens Service of Arizona. It seems to me that these are "credentials" regarding a major faith group/relgion. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
I was a consulting expert for an Israeli government report about cults. But apparently the "Human Rights Without Frontiers International" organization took issue with this and was critical. They stated, "He [Rick Alan Ross] only has a high school diploma and does not have any education or credentials in religion."
However, I served on national committees for the Union for Reform Judaism and represented the Jewish community officially on the Religious Advisory Committee to the Arizona Department of Corrections.
Given the historical inaccuracy and lack of context I suggest that this addition be deleted or amended to reflect historical context. That is, that this criticism be preceded by the statement that I consulted Israeli Ministry of Social Welfare and followed by some historical facts, such as my interreligious work and accepted court expert testimony. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
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The quote offered by James T. Richardson is not NPOV. Richardson was a frequent apologist for cults and he was recommended by Scientology and the "New Cult Awareness Network" (controlled by Scientology) as a resource. See https://culteducation.com/apologist42.html and also see https://www.culteducation.com/group/1073-cult-awareness-network/15149-who-the-so-called-new-can-recommends-for-factual-information-onnew-religions.html This is his view of "deprogramming," which was often on a voluntary basis. Many people leaving cults sought deprogramming.
"For purposes of legal analysis, there are three types of deprogramming. Voluntary deprogramming; forcible deprogramming; and deprogramming carried out with a court's sanction, usually in the form of an order of conservatorship." See https://scholarship.law.vanderbilt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2794&context=vlr I would also add involuntary deprogramming of a minor child overseen by a custodial parent or legal guardian. See https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1989-06-08-8902070806-story.html And also see https://culteducation.com/group/1260-his-community/9793-gromers-using-deprogrammer-with-boys.html
The overwhelming majority of deprogramming I have done has been voluntary. Some were sanctioned by a court, custodial parent or legal guardian. Very few would fit the category of involuntary deprogramming with an adult. Those few interventions took place primarily in the late 1980s and ended in 1990 with the Jason Scott case.
There is an attempt being made to skew this biography with biased quotes from sources that are decidedly not NPOV. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:40, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
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Recently there has been some POV editing here at this bio.
It must be noted that there is a history of cult members coming here and editing. Some were ultimately banned.
The quotes offered are from those specifically aligned with cults that have a very specific POV.
This is not NPOV editing. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Answered on user's talk page.
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Again the editing being done is specifically POV not NPOV. Anson Shupe, who is cited in a recent addition worked as an expert witness for Scientology lawyer Kendrick Moxon for a very considerable sum of money. See https://culteducation.com/group/1248-apologist/1958-when-scholars-know-sins.html
A long-time opponent of the "anti-cult movement" Shupe does not represent a NPOV. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 21:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Also, the addition of Shupe's remarks in no way adds anything to the bio, as the background section already notes nothing more than a high school education.
It's unclear if "religious credentials" means a degree or a history of work in the area of religion? If it's the later I have worked within well established religious organizations and have testified as a court expert witness concerning extreme religious groups in 11 states, including US Federal Court.
I suggest that the recent additions to this bio be deleted as they are POV and not NPOV. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 21:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
The source for the quotes are people closely associated with cults that have a history of defending groups called "cults."
There are no quotes, there is one sentence mentioning the fact that you have no credentials in religion and no formal training in counseling or psychology. The Shupe source does not discuss the "cults" at all. Agents of Discord is about deprogramming as a practice, starting with Ted Patrick and moving through the history of the anti-cult movement, other deprogrammers, and the rise and fall of the CAN. It usually mentions the specific group or teacher associated with the victim of a deprogramming, but does not express opinions one way or the other about them. One thing it does do, however, is examine legal documents, court transcripts etc. that provide evidence of what went on during deprogrammings. That is what you don’t like, not their cult apologies, which are entirely absent. There is a quite detailed summary, for example, of the court evidence from the Jason Scott lawsuit. I'm of the opinion that we should include some of it in the article, there is very little description in the section "Jason Scott Deprogramming" of the actual "deprogramming". Considering the violent and farcical picture that emerges from the evidence, it is little wonder that the authors note that its primary architect, recommended by CAN and hired for a considerable sum of money, was a man with no formal training in counseling or psychology.
Harold the Sheep (
talk) 04:14, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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Please either delete or amend the following:
"Despite involving himself in many coercive interventions against individuals involved in New Religious Movements, Ross has no education or credentials in religion and no formal training in counselling or psychology."
This is at best superfluous and misleading. Cult intervention work is education not counseling psychotherapy. It is simply educating the individual regarding the history of cults and cult indoctrination and influence techniques based upon historical reporting and scientific research. I have never claimed or insinuated that I am a mental health professional providing related counseling services.
Concerning "credentials in religion." As reported I have served as the Jewish community representative to the Arizona Department of Corrections Religious Advisory Committee (elected chairman), the Committee on Interreligious Affairs for the Union of Reform Judaism, program coordinator for the Jewish Prisoner Program of Jewish and Family Children's Services of Phoenix, Arizona and the chairman of the International Coalition for Jewish Prisoner Programs sponsored by B'Nai B'Rith International. I was also an instructor for the Bureau of Jewish Education (under the Jewish Federation of Greater Phoenix) teaching courses on "Cults: Conersion through Coercion" for teenage students and adult education. This can be seen as "credentials in relgion."
That is, many would consider this "credentials in religion," unless what you mean is an ordination, or a degree in religious studies.
BTW -- groups called cults are not always religious, many have little if any connection to religious beliefs, e.g. NXIVM, the Sullivanians, Synanon, National Labor Federation, Odyssey Study Group, Breatharians, MOVE, Symbionese Liberation Army, etc. A cult can be based upon almost anything. So "New Religious Movements" (NRM) is not an accurate description and a bit dated.
Another point -- My work in what the editor describes as "coercive interventions" ended 32 years ago in 1990 (Jason Scott case). Of the more than 500 interventions I have done less than 1% were ever involuntary. Of those involuntary interventions many were with minor children under the direct supervision of a legal guardian. And some were with people under conservatorship and the direct supervision of a physician.
The statement must be more precise and fact based if it is not intended to deliberately mislead readers based upon the minority opinion expressed by some biased academic.
For example -- Some academics critical of Ross and his cult intervention work have pointed out that he has no degree in religious studies and is not a mental health professional.
This is simply stating the facts without skewing the entry. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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I suggest updating the other activities section as there is relevant and notable work since 2014
In 2015 Ross appeared in the documentary "Deprogrammed" about the life of the first cult deprogrammer Ted Patrick. See https://www.eyesteelfilm.com/portfolio/deprogrammed
Ross appeared in the documentary "Holy Hell" released worldwide by CNN in 2016 directed and produced by a former cult member of the group "Buddhafield." See https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/01/us/holy-hell-buddhafield-searching-for-michel/index.html
Rick Ross was tapped to be part of the creative team at Ubisoft for the very popular videogame "Far Cry 5" released worldwide in 2018. See https://www.nine.com.au/entertainment/viral/far-cry-5-cult-expert-rick-ross/ea820842-96f3-47dd-8b24-a5ac2f286f4f and see https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/10/26/an-exclusive-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-making-of-far-cry-5s-cult/?sh=7eae929561a1 In 2017 Ross appeared in the ABC News documentary "Truth and Lies: The Family Manson." See https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/truth-lies-family-manson-fri-march-17-98c-45941821 and see https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6638954/
Ross testified for the prosecution at the criminal trial of NXIVM cult leader Keith Raniere in 2019. Raniere was found guilty of racketeering, human trafficking, sex offenses, and fraud and sentenced to 120 years in prison and a $1.75 million fine. See https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/founder-nxivm-purported-self-help-organization-and-five-others-charged-superseding and see https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/nyregion/nxivm-cult-keith-raniere-sentenced.html
In 2020 Ross appeared in the widely watched documentaries "The Vow" and "Seduced" concerning NXIVM and Raniere. See https://onezero.medium.com/cult-deprogrammer-rick-alan-ross-on-nxivm-qanon-and-what-makes-us-vulnerable-62f6c709562c and see https://seduceddocumentary.com/theexperts/rickalanross/
Ross appeared in the documentary "The Rise and Fall of LulaRoe, which examined a controversial multi-level marketing "cult-like" company in 2021. See https://www.forbes.com/sites/risasarachan/2021/12/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-lularoe-investigates-scandal-behind--marketing-company/?sh=3d30925e3615
In 2021 Ross appeared as an expert analyst to critique films about cults for Vanity Fair watched by more than 3.6 million viewers on YouTube. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLoVHyuYVBY&t=98s
Ross appeared on the "Dr. Phil Show" 2021 that first exposed cult leader Amy Carlson now the focus of a new HBO documentary "Love Has Won: The Cult of Mother God," (2023). See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpR2nKVlDYQ And see https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/amy-carlson-hbo-love-has-won-cult-colorado-documentary/ Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 20:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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I suggest updating to the introduction to reflect current status and public descritions.
Rick Alan Ross (b. 1952) has been described as "America's leading cult expert" and "America's foremost deprogrammer." He is an internationally known cult specialist, and founder and executive director of the nonprofit Cult Education Institute. He frequently appears in the news and other media discussing groups some consider cults. Ross has intervened in more than 500 deprogramming cases in various countries. See https://www.gq.com/story/the-cult-of-trump And see https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a40105747/the-follower-staten-island-1980s-cult/ See https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/rick-ross-cult-expert and see https://www.courttv.com/title/7-22-20-cult-expert-rick-alan-ross-talks-failed-doomsday-prophecies/ and see https://www.trtworld.com/video/the-innerview/cult-expert-rick-alan-ross-decodes-brainwashing-tactics-or-the-innerview-15517767 and see https://www.news.com.au/technology/home-entertainment/gaming/inside-the-mind-of-a-cult-member-according-to-a-professional-deprogrammer/news-story/873d58343e1bd4108693c1258ec0d9d0
There are many more, but these are a few independent sources to confirm the descriptions to be added. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 21:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Unless this bio is an effort to present me in the worst possible light through POV editing it must be more balanced and reflect my actual work history and the scope of my work.Please retract. All you're doing is pushing away the people that are working to address your concerns. -- Hipal ( talk) 18:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
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At this point after suggesting some edits and additions to make this bio both accurate and historically relevant I would like express some concern about recent edits that are a rather one sided effort to skew the bio for the purpose of promoting a point of view, which can be seen as little more than propaganda.
Did my work history cease in 2004?
It would seem from this bio page that for the past 20 years I have done nothing.
Is that accurate and does that represent an authentic effort to edit an objective biography?
As anyone can see from the many links regarding my documentary work, court battle with NXIVM and subsequent testimony at cult leader Keith Raniere's criminal trial and my work on the videogame "Far Cry 5" there has been considerable work reported in the past 20 years that is both relevant and notalbe.
So why isn't it in this bio?
It is reflected elsewhere on Wikipedia.
Certainly reliable and credible sources according to Wikipedia have reported it.
So what is really happening with this bio?
NXIVM, by any objective measurement, is far more noteworthy than the Jason Scott case. The decades old Scott case deserves a place in this bio, but doesn't warrant a position in the lead.
Any objective editor would put NXIVM in the lead and follow with Waco.
Also, there is undue weight given here to minority opinions regarding my work. Relatively obscure academics from years ago are quoted as if they are somehow absolute authorities. However, these same academics lost their arguments defending cults over the years due to the destructive behavior, criminal acts and media exposure of destructive cults. These same academics, like the cults they defended, claimed these so-called "new religious movements" were "persecuted" or "attacked," when their bad behavior was simply being exposed.
My hope is that this bio will reflect the historical facts without having it skewed through misleading edits. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:29, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. Not a request about this article, and does not even specify any specific changes to be made, but is an accusation about another editor. Such a matter belongs at WP:ANI with diffs presented that are sufficient to prove problematic activity. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:17, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
Just a heads up to anyone following this talk page.
"Harold the Sheep" is also quite active editing the Steven Alan Hassan BLP.
Is it a coincidence that this editor is focused on the BLPs of two cult experts?
Is it a coincidence that this editor's edits repeatedly advance the opinions of the same group of academics regarding their defense of so-called "new religious movements" and arguments against the existence or use of cultic manipulation to gain undue influence for the purpose of exploitation?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Steven_Hassan&action=history regarding editing at the Hassan page.
I have been critical of Steven Hassan regarding his false claims of "teaching at Harvard" and otherwise attempting to conflate his CV. But Harold's edits have been less about facts and more about a point of view.
Please take the time to review Harold's edits here and at the Hassan page and you will see that they consistently fit a pattern that expresses a particular point of view through chosen quotes and wording.
So what is the actual objective of such editing? Is it to make Wikipedia better? Or is it more about using Wikipedia as a platform to advance what can easily be seen as propaganda, rather than simply objective editing.
I don't know who Harold is, so this is NOT a "personal attack," it's simply a heads up regarding the nature and purpose of his editing.19:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC) Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
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In a recent edit by Harold the Sheep my bio was changed to include a false statement. "The stolen items found in Ross's possession were returned to the store;" This was changed from "He returned everything,"
In fact the authorities did not recover the stolen items "in [my] possession. This is a false statement. I returned everything, which was not found in my possession, but rather in another unknown location.
The sources cited do not state that "stolen items were found in Ross's possession."
Specifically, the Willamette Week interview does not support this edit. See https://culteducation.com/~cultedustaging/group/1300-q-amp-a-brainwashed-rick-ross-talks-about-deprogramming-members-of-religious-cultss.html
Nor does the article by Tony Ortega state this. The article actually states, "Some of the pieces his partner had taken had been melted down, but everything in Ross' possession was returned to the store. Ross was sentenced to four years' probation."
See https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/hush-hush-sweet-charlatans-6426159
This edit must be reverted to the original text as the revision is inaccurate and not supported by any credible source. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | Part of an edit requested by an editor with a conflict of interest has been implemented. |
I worked for the Bureau of Jewish Education in the 1980s as an instructor for both its high school and adult education programs.
However, Harold the Sheep has edited out this fact from my bio.
He removed, "He also worked for Phoenix Bureau of Jewish Education, designing a curriculum and teaching about destructive cults."
This biographical fact is well established.
See https://www.salon.com/2022/07/30/rick-ross-deprogrammer-profile/
See https://seduceddocumentary.com/theexperts/rickalanross/
See https://www.upi.com/topic/Rick_Ross/
Please revert this recent edit. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
This talk page has spiraled out of control. All of the threads on this talk page are originated by the subject himself through account
Rick Alan Ross. All are rather lengthy and rambling. I have marked each thread here with {{edit COI}}
and have marked some as done, declined or partially done where I was able to identify if the thread had been concluded.
@ Harold the Sheep, Path2space, SMcCandlish, Hipal, PeaceNT, and Sennalen: (tagging editors on this page) If you can recall whether the threads you participated in are done or not, please consider marking the COI-edit tag as done, or another appropriate parameter per Template:Edit COI/Instructions § Response options so we can close out these threads and get them archived and out of the way.
@
Rick Alan Ross: I recommend that you make your requests more concise and to the point and less "venting". Whenever you make another new section, add {{edit COI}}
as the first entry at the top of any new request or post. Please review the Wikipedia guidelines for
WP:Edit requests and
WP:NOTFORUM.
▶ I am Grorp ◀ 19:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue related to this talk page.
▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
To whom it may concern:
I want to apologize to the editors of this Talk page for "walls of text" and too many long winded comments about the editing being done here.
Because this bio is about me I am personally and at times emotionally reacting to its contents.
My concern is that this bio not be misleading and/or inaccurate.
I have made mistakes in my life, but my concern is that they be accurately reported and not distorted and that my work is reported about factually.
Having said this, I won't be posting any more walls of text or going on point by point in long winded examinations of editing here. Instead, as pointed out, I will be constrained, on point and brief about any edits and sources cited, suggesting specific quotes and/or citations per format to reflect concerns about historical balance and accuracy.
Again, I apologize for any excessive posting here and will not do so in the future.
Rick Alan Ross Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 16:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
@ ScienceFlyer: I saw you reverted two third-party quotes that I added regarding Mr. Ross’s lack of credentials in religion and his involvement in “abducting, confining and coercing people out of their newly chosen religious faith.” These two quotes were from a 2018 Report by Human Rights Without Fronter International. Your revert reasons were “no reliable support” and “dubiously-sourced material.”
But Human Rights without Frontier International is a reliable source. The U.S. Department of State has cited HRWF International multiple times in its annual County Reports on International Religious Freedom for China, Russia, Iran, Libya, among many countries, since 2016. A credible human rights organization’s perspective on Mr. Ross’s work should be included on this page. Thank you. Path2space ( talk) 23:37, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
I realize that after it was exposed that this bio was being edited by cult members there was an effort to safeguard against this happening in the future. The net result seems to be the historical freezing of this bio without updates.
Please note that my work did not end in 2004, but rather continued and expanded. I have been very active, which this bio does not reflect.
This would include appearing in numerous documentaries (e.g HBO "The Vow" and "Seduced" Starz see https://www.oxygen.com/true-crime-buzz/who-is-cult-expert-rick-ross-whats-his-connection-to-nxivm ), testifying at the criminal trial of cult leader Keith Raniere 9 see https://www.timesunion.com/nxivm/article/Cult-expert-testifies-about-his-dealings-with-13972283.php 0and working as part of the creative team for the videogame "Far Cry 5." See https://www.nine.com.au/entertainment/viral/far-cry-5-cult-expert-rick-ross/ea820842-96f3-47dd-8b24-a5ac2f286f4f
I have also continued to testify in court proceedings across the United States and have been qualified, accepted and testified as a court expert in 11 states , including United States Federal Court, subsequent to a Daubert Hearing. See https://casetext.com/case/noyes-v-kelly-services/
My intervention work also continues and perhaps my most popular appearance as a "cult deprogrammer" was for Vanity Fair with more than 3 million views. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLoVHyuYVBY Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 20:01, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered. |
Here we go again. Anonymous editors drop in to put something negative and/or misleading in my bio.
"A 2018 report by Human Rights Without Frontiers International includes a section on criticisms of Ross and his methodology. The report states, 'He [Rick Alan Ross] only has a high school diploma and does not have any education or credentials in religion.'"
The footnote for this addition is a dead link. There is nothing there.
This statement offers no historical context, but seems tied to anti-cult work in Israel. In fact, the Israeli Ministry of Social Affairs and Services sought my input for a policy paper titled "REPORT OF MINISTRY OF WELFARE AND SOCIAL SERVICES TEAM, AN EXAMINATION OF THE PHENOMENON OF CULTS IN ISRAEL" (March 2011) See https://culteducation.com/reference/general/AnExaminationOfThePhenomenonOfCultsInIsrael.pdf
Contained in the introduction of this report is the following:
The members of the Team wish to thank the researchers, counselors and other relevant parties who agreed to meet, who forwarded material, contributed their time and expressed their views, all in order to assist in the production of this report "from theory to practice". The following is only a partial list of the persons concerned, as, on account of the wish to maintain their privacy, we have elected not to publish the names of the families who appeared before the Committee.
victim families.
cult victims, a teacher in various disciplines and tutor of counseling training groups.
Institute" of Advanced Psychology in Tel Aviv.
Researcher.
* Rick Ross, Executive Director of the Rick. A. Ross Institute. [now known as the Cult Education Institute]
Family and Children's Services in New York City.
Moreover the criticism is historically inaccurate. In my bio it is noted that I have been appointed to national committees for the Union of Reform Judaism and served as the officially appointed Jewish representative on the Religious Advisory Committee to the Arizona Department of Corrections. I was also the program coordinator for Jewish Prisoner Program for Jewish Family and Childrens Service of Arizona. It seems to me that these are "credentials" regarding a major faith group/relgion. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
I was a consulting expert for an Israeli government report about cults. But apparently the "Human Rights Without Frontiers International" organization took issue with this and was critical. They stated, "He [Rick Alan Ross] only has a high school diploma and does not have any education or credentials in religion."
However, I served on national committees for the Union for Reform Judaism and represented the Jewish community officially on the Religious Advisory Committee to the Arizona Department of Corrections.
Given the historical inaccuracy and lack of context I suggest that this addition be deleted or amended to reflect historical context. That is, that this criticism be preceded by the statement that I consulted Israeli Ministry of Social Welfare and followed by some historical facts, such as my interreligious work and accepted court expert testimony. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:01, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
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The quote offered by James T. Richardson is not NPOV. Richardson was a frequent apologist for cults and he was recommended by Scientology and the "New Cult Awareness Network" (controlled by Scientology) as a resource. See https://culteducation.com/apologist42.html and also see https://www.culteducation.com/group/1073-cult-awareness-network/15149-who-the-so-called-new-can-recommends-for-factual-information-onnew-religions.html This is his view of "deprogramming," which was often on a voluntary basis. Many people leaving cults sought deprogramming.
"For purposes of legal analysis, there are three types of deprogramming. Voluntary deprogramming; forcible deprogramming; and deprogramming carried out with a court's sanction, usually in the form of an order of conservatorship." See https://scholarship.law.vanderbilt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2794&context=vlr I would also add involuntary deprogramming of a minor child overseen by a custodial parent or legal guardian. See https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1989-06-08-8902070806-story.html And also see https://culteducation.com/group/1260-his-community/9793-gromers-using-deprogrammer-with-boys.html
The overwhelming majority of deprogramming I have done has been voluntary. Some were sanctioned by a court, custodial parent or legal guardian. Very few would fit the category of involuntary deprogramming with an adult. Those few interventions took place primarily in the late 1980s and ended in 1990 with the Jason Scott case.
There is an attempt being made to skew this biography with biased quotes from sources that are decidedly not NPOV. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:40, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
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Recently there has been some POV editing here at this bio.
It must be noted that there is a history of cult members coming here and editing. Some were ultimately banned.
The quotes offered are from those specifically aligned with cults that have a very specific POV.
This is not NPOV editing. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:00, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Answered on user's talk page.
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Again the editing being done is specifically POV not NPOV. Anson Shupe, who is cited in a recent addition worked as an expert witness for Scientology lawyer Kendrick Moxon for a very considerable sum of money. See https://culteducation.com/group/1248-apologist/1958-when-scholars-know-sins.html
A long-time opponent of the "anti-cult movement" Shupe does not represent a NPOV. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 21:43, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
Also, the addition of Shupe's remarks in no way adds anything to the bio, as the background section already notes nothing more than a high school education.
It's unclear if "religious credentials" means a degree or a history of work in the area of religion? If it's the later I have worked within well established religious organizations and have testified as a court expert witness concerning extreme religious groups in 11 states, including US Federal Court.
I suggest that the recent additions to this bio be deleted as they are POV and not NPOV. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 21:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
The source for the quotes are people closely associated with cults that have a history of defending groups called "cults."
There are no quotes, there is one sentence mentioning the fact that you have no credentials in religion and no formal training in counseling or psychology. The Shupe source does not discuss the "cults" at all. Agents of Discord is about deprogramming as a practice, starting with Ted Patrick and moving through the history of the anti-cult movement, other deprogrammers, and the rise and fall of the CAN. It usually mentions the specific group or teacher associated with the victim of a deprogramming, but does not express opinions one way or the other about them. One thing it does do, however, is examine legal documents, court transcripts etc. that provide evidence of what went on during deprogrammings. That is what you don’t like, not their cult apologies, which are entirely absent. There is a quite detailed summary, for example, of the court evidence from the Jason Scott lawsuit. I'm of the opinion that we should include some of it in the article, there is very little description in the section "Jason Scott Deprogramming" of the actual "deprogramming". Considering the violent and farcical picture that emerges from the evidence, it is little wonder that the authors note that its primary architect, recommended by CAN and hired for a considerable sum of money, was a man with no formal training in counseling or psychology.
Harold the Sheep (
talk) 04:14, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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Please either delete or amend the following:
"Despite involving himself in many coercive interventions against individuals involved in New Religious Movements, Ross has no education or credentials in religion and no formal training in counselling or psychology."
This is at best superfluous and misleading. Cult intervention work is education not counseling psychotherapy. It is simply educating the individual regarding the history of cults and cult indoctrination and influence techniques based upon historical reporting and scientific research. I have never claimed or insinuated that I am a mental health professional providing related counseling services.
Concerning "credentials in religion." As reported I have served as the Jewish community representative to the Arizona Department of Corrections Religious Advisory Committee (elected chairman), the Committee on Interreligious Affairs for the Union of Reform Judaism, program coordinator for the Jewish Prisoner Program of Jewish and Family Children's Services of Phoenix, Arizona and the chairman of the International Coalition for Jewish Prisoner Programs sponsored by B'Nai B'Rith International. I was also an instructor for the Bureau of Jewish Education (under the Jewish Federation of Greater Phoenix) teaching courses on "Cults: Conersion through Coercion" for teenage students and adult education. This can be seen as "credentials in relgion."
That is, many would consider this "credentials in religion," unless what you mean is an ordination, or a degree in religious studies.
BTW -- groups called cults are not always religious, many have little if any connection to religious beliefs, e.g. NXIVM, the Sullivanians, Synanon, National Labor Federation, Odyssey Study Group, Breatharians, MOVE, Symbionese Liberation Army, etc. A cult can be based upon almost anything. So "New Religious Movements" (NRM) is not an accurate description and a bit dated.
Another point -- My work in what the editor describes as "coercive interventions" ended 32 years ago in 1990 (Jason Scott case). Of the more than 500 interventions I have done less than 1% were ever involuntary. Of those involuntary interventions many were with minor children under the direct supervision of a legal guardian. And some were with people under conservatorship and the direct supervision of a physician.
The statement must be more precise and fact based if it is not intended to deliberately mislead readers based upon the minority opinion expressed by some biased academic.
For example -- Some academics critical of Ross and his cult intervention work have pointed out that he has no degree in religious studies and is not a mental health professional.
This is simply stating the facts without skewing the entry. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:08, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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I suggest updating the other activities section as there is relevant and notable work since 2014
In 2015 Ross appeared in the documentary "Deprogrammed" about the life of the first cult deprogrammer Ted Patrick. See https://www.eyesteelfilm.com/portfolio/deprogrammed
Ross appeared in the documentary "Holy Hell" released worldwide by CNN in 2016 directed and produced by a former cult member of the group "Buddhafield." See https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/01/us/holy-hell-buddhafield-searching-for-michel/index.html
Rick Ross was tapped to be part of the creative team at Ubisoft for the very popular videogame "Far Cry 5" released worldwide in 2018. See https://www.nine.com.au/entertainment/viral/far-cry-5-cult-expert-rick-ross/ea820842-96f3-47dd-8b24-a5ac2f286f4f and see https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/10/26/an-exclusive-behind-the-scenes-look-at-the-making-of-far-cry-5s-cult/?sh=7eae929561a1 In 2017 Ross appeared in the ABC News documentary "Truth and Lies: The Family Manson." See https://abcnews.go.com/US/video/truth-lies-family-manson-fri-march-17-98c-45941821 and see https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6638954/
Ross testified for the prosecution at the criminal trial of NXIVM cult leader Keith Raniere in 2019. Raniere was found guilty of racketeering, human trafficking, sex offenses, and fraud and sentenced to 120 years in prison and a $1.75 million fine. See https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/founder-nxivm-purported-self-help-organization-and-five-others-charged-superseding and see https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/nyregion/nxivm-cult-keith-raniere-sentenced.html
In 2020 Ross appeared in the widely watched documentaries "The Vow" and "Seduced" concerning NXIVM and Raniere. See https://onezero.medium.com/cult-deprogrammer-rick-alan-ross-on-nxivm-qanon-and-what-makes-us-vulnerable-62f6c709562c and see https://seduceddocumentary.com/theexperts/rickalanross/
Ross appeared in the documentary "The Rise and Fall of LulaRoe, which examined a controversial multi-level marketing "cult-like" company in 2021. See https://www.forbes.com/sites/risasarachan/2021/12/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-lularoe-investigates-scandal-behind--marketing-company/?sh=3d30925e3615
In 2021 Ross appeared as an expert analyst to critique films about cults for Vanity Fair watched by more than 3.6 million viewers on YouTube. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLoVHyuYVBY&t=98s
Ross appeared on the "Dr. Phil Show" 2021 that first exposed cult leader Amy Carlson now the focus of a new HBO documentary "Love Has Won: The Cult of Mother God," (2023). See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpR2nKVlDYQ And see https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/amy-carlson-hbo-love-has-won-cult-colorado-documentary/ Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 20:21, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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I suggest updating to the introduction to reflect current status and public descritions.
Rick Alan Ross (b. 1952) has been described as "America's leading cult expert" and "America's foremost deprogrammer." He is an internationally known cult specialist, and founder and executive director of the nonprofit Cult Education Institute. He frequently appears in the news and other media discussing groups some consider cults. Ross has intervened in more than 500 deprogramming cases in various countries. See https://www.gq.com/story/the-cult-of-trump And see https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a40105747/the-follower-staten-island-1980s-cult/ See https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/rick-ross-cult-expert and see https://www.courttv.com/title/7-22-20-cult-expert-rick-alan-ross-talks-failed-doomsday-prophecies/ and see https://www.trtworld.com/video/the-innerview/cult-expert-rick-alan-ross-decodes-brainwashing-tactics-or-the-innerview-15517767 and see https://www.news.com.au/technology/home-entertainment/gaming/inside-the-mind-of-a-cult-member-according-to-a-professional-deprogrammer/news-story/873d58343e1bd4108693c1258ec0d9d0
There are many more, but these are a few independent sources to confirm the descriptions to be added. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 21:13, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Unless this bio is an effort to present me in the worst possible light through POV editing it must be more balanced and reflect my actual work history and the scope of my work.Please retract. All you're doing is pushing away the people that are working to address your concerns. -- Hipal ( talk) 18:27, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
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At this point after suggesting some edits and additions to make this bio both accurate and historically relevant I would like express some concern about recent edits that are a rather one sided effort to skew the bio for the purpose of promoting a point of view, which can be seen as little more than propaganda.
Did my work history cease in 2004?
It would seem from this bio page that for the past 20 years I have done nothing.
Is that accurate and does that represent an authentic effort to edit an objective biography?
As anyone can see from the many links regarding my documentary work, court battle with NXIVM and subsequent testimony at cult leader Keith Raniere's criminal trial and my work on the videogame "Far Cry 5" there has been considerable work reported in the past 20 years that is both relevant and notalbe.
So why isn't it in this bio?
It is reflected elsewhere on Wikipedia.
Certainly reliable and credible sources according to Wikipedia have reported it.
So what is really happening with this bio?
NXIVM, by any objective measurement, is far more noteworthy than the Jason Scott case. The decades old Scott case deserves a place in this bio, but doesn't warrant a position in the lead.
Any objective editor would put NXIVM in the lead and follow with Waco.
Also, there is undue weight given here to minority opinions regarding my work. Relatively obscure academics from years ago are quoted as if they are somehow absolute authorities. However, these same academics lost their arguments defending cults over the years due to the destructive behavior, criminal acts and media exposure of destructive cults. These same academics, like the cults they defended, claimed these so-called "new religious movements" were "persecuted" or "attacked," when their bad behavior was simply being exposed.
My hope is that this bio will reflect the historical facts without having it skewed through misleading edits. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 17:29, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest was declined. Not a request about this article, and does not even specify any specific changes to be made, but is an accusation about another editor. Such a matter belongs at WP:ANI with diffs presented that are sufficient to prove problematic activity. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 23:17, 5 December 2023 (UTC) |
Just a heads up to anyone following this talk page.
"Harold the Sheep" is also quite active editing the Steven Alan Hassan BLP.
Is it a coincidence that this editor is focused on the BLPs of two cult experts?
Is it a coincidence that this editor's edits repeatedly advance the opinions of the same group of academics regarding their defense of so-called "new religious movements" and arguments against the existence or use of cultic manipulation to gain undue influence for the purpose of exploitation?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Steven_Hassan&action=history regarding editing at the Hassan page.
I have been critical of Steven Hassan regarding his false claims of "teaching at Harvard" and otherwise attempting to conflate his CV. But Harold's edits have been less about facts and more about a point of view.
Please take the time to review Harold's edits here and at the Hassan page and you will see that they consistently fit a pattern that expresses a particular point of view through chosen quotes and wording.
So what is the actual objective of such editing? Is it to make Wikipedia better? Or is it more about using Wikipedia as a platform to advance what can easily be seen as propaganda, rather than simply objective editing.
I don't know who Harold is, so this is NOT a "personal attack," it's simply a heads up regarding the nature and purpose of his editing.19:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC) Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 19:26, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
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In a recent edit by Harold the Sheep my bio was changed to include a false statement. "The stolen items found in Ross's possession were returned to the store;" This was changed from "He returned everything,"
In fact the authorities did not recover the stolen items "in [my] possession. This is a false statement. I returned everything, which was not found in my possession, but rather in another unknown location.
The sources cited do not state that "stolen items were found in Ross's possession."
Specifically, the Willamette Week interview does not support this edit. See https://culteducation.com/~cultedustaging/group/1300-q-amp-a-brainwashed-rick-ross-talks-about-deprogramming-members-of-religious-cultss.html
Nor does the article by Tony Ortega state this. The article actually states, "Some of the pieces his partner had taken had been melted down, but everything in Ross' possession was returned to the store. Ross was sentenced to four years' probation."
See https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/hush-hush-sweet-charlatans-6426159
This edit must be reverted to the original text as the revision is inaccurate and not supported by any credible source. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:03, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
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I worked for the Bureau of Jewish Education in the 1980s as an instructor for both its high school and adult education programs.
However, Harold the Sheep has edited out this fact from my bio.
He removed, "He also worked for Phoenix Bureau of Jewish Education, designing a curriculum and teaching about destructive cults."
This biographical fact is well established.
See https://www.salon.com/2022/07/30/rick-ross-deprogrammer-profile/
See https://seduceddocumentary.com/theexperts/rickalanross/
See https://www.upi.com/topic/Rick_Ross/
Please revert this recent edit. Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 18:30, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
This talk page has spiraled out of control. All of the threads on this talk page are originated by the subject himself through account
Rick Alan Ross. All are rather lengthy and rambling. I have marked each thread here with {{edit COI}}
and have marked some as done, declined or partially done where I was able to identify if the thread had been concluded.
@ Harold the Sheep, Path2space, SMcCandlish, Hipal, PeaceNT, and Sennalen: (tagging editors on this page) If you can recall whether the threads you participated in are done or not, please consider marking the COI-edit tag as done, or another appropriate parameter per Template:Edit COI/Instructions § Response options so we can close out these threads and get them archived and out of the way.
@
Rick Alan Ross: I recommend that you make your requests more concise and to the point and less "venting". Whenever you make another new section, add {{edit COI}}
as the first entry at the top of any new request or post. Please review the Wikipedia guidelines for
WP:Edit requests and
WP:NOTFORUM.
▶ I am Grorp ◀ 19:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue related to this talk page.
▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:27, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
To whom it may concern:
I want to apologize to the editors of this Talk page for "walls of text" and too many long winded comments about the editing being done here.
Because this bio is about me I am personally and at times emotionally reacting to its contents.
My concern is that this bio not be misleading and/or inaccurate.
I have made mistakes in my life, but my concern is that they be accurately reported and not distorted and that my work is reported about factually.
Having said this, I won't be posting any more walls of text or going on point by point in long winded examinations of editing here. Instead, as pointed out, I will be constrained, on point and brief about any edits and sources cited, suggesting specific quotes and/or citations per format to reflect concerns about historical balance and accuracy.
Again, I apologize for any excessive posting here and will not do so in the future.
Rick Alan Ross Rick Alan Ross ( talk) 16:35, 6 December 2023 (UTC)