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Rephrased somewhat. ReligiousTolerance is not a website dedicated exclusively to criticism of Rick Ross. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ExitControl ( talk • contribs)
Can we use any of the following?
I've just read over the Rick Ross entry and see a particular flaw. The critics in the entry on Rick are Nancy Ammerman, Carol Moore, Kimberly Post, Catherine Wessinger, Religiousfreedomwatch.org (Scientology), Jeffrey Hadden, Anson Shupe, Darell, Religioustolerance.org. On the pro side, there is not much listed. It occurs to me that the hundreds of people Rick has helped in his dealings with cults are not people who write magazine articles, appear in court, or necessarily want to speak out in public. While I see many references to Rick's credentials on his own site (that seem undisputed) I can see why those could not be used because they could be considered possibly not NPOV. So where does that leave the Wikipedia entry? Very one-sided, imho. The entry on Rick is essentially critical, not NPOV. If there's no way to mention the people Rick has educated on cults through his speeches and media appearances, nor the people he has directly helped get out of cults, then his entry will never be NPOV. Silvertung
Don't waste your time on this guy Zappaz. Look around Wikipedia on entries of his at places like cults, mind control, brainwashing, deprogramming. After checking that out you can see what he is up to. The guy is an angry cult devotee using Wikipedia to bash anyone or anything that might expose his little guru and BS. He is proof of what's wrong with Wikipedia and why many people don't trust the entries and much of anything.
208.5.214.2
11:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The article is full of half-truths, dubious generalizations, lies by implication and other things that people who have the truth on their side don't need to resort to. Why does it (or rather, did it talk about the Cult Awareness Network but not link to the article? It couldn't be because the article on CAN discusses the real reason behind CAN's bankrupting and buy-out, could it?
68.49.197.171's changes were taken with minor changes from here, including the POV "his moral credentials seem shaky at best." -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Rick Ross has a major criminal record, not a minor one; burglary, theft, embezzlement and yet to come; practicing psychology w/o a license, profiteering from counseling and slander. The facts are different and this article is completely slanted. Most groups that Ross lists on his site are accused of doing exactly what he's doing while accusing them of it?!?
The facts are that Rick Ross has a High School diploma and is counseling people. He also has a criminal record. Ross lists only some groups, most of which most he has no experience or knowledge; just rumors and gossip. If he was actually doing what he claims he is, then according to HIS criteria; Wal-Mart, Air Force, The Baptist Church, Rick Ross Institute, Columbia KIA-Chevy, John Ashcroft and Vita Hair Products would on that list. For now, only the groups and people that Rick Ross benefits of listing are on his list.
Rick Ross and his site are nothing more but American media smoke and mirrors. Writing a couple of articles and gaining notoriety on controversy is nothing new, but cheap '60-Minutes', Jerry Springer and Daily Mirror tabloid journalism masked into authority that he actually doesn't have and this article is just as slanted as Ross.
Ross is a questionable person because no professional would use such a flimsy and unscientific basis on their work as Ross. His theories, research/writing, hypothesis and methodology is entirely laughable and at best naive. If there is a complaint about the way an organization treats people ("like no human being deserves"), then file a police report or leave! Some people do both. All the power to them for taking action and actualy causing something in their lives.
Gossip, rumors, whining and complaints lead into nothing and that is Ross' business! In fact, it's repeat business because it leads into no one taking responsibility (esp. for themselves) and making anything actually happen. More of the same, the more fear and scandals, the better for these psychologists and "experts" like Ross who plays one on TV.
-- Zappaz 04:09, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm when was the last time Rick Ross was an expert witness in a legal case? It will be good to list these cases as well, but I have not managed to find a list that support this statement: He has however been qualified and accepted as an expert witness in court cases in eight states. -- Zappaz 15:53, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I found this quote purportedly from the civil suit]:
I am not so sure of its autencity. Does any one have access to the transcript of the jury's statement? -- Zappaz 16:04, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why is factual data is being remvoved from the article under the false pretense of NPOV?
Please do not delete these facts. Thanks. -- Zappaz 15:34, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The civil case against Ross was not $4.8 million. Other people regard him as an expert too. CAN's bankruptcy is secondary. - Willmcw 18:32, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Just general reminder that it is the duty of each and every Wikipedia to write NPOV articles. None of us should write from a POV with the expectation that an opposing POV will someday come through and pull the article back towards neutral. Cheers, - Willmcw 02:47, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Use whatever theory or rationalization you prefer, just please make sure that your actual edits are NPOV. Do both Zappaz and Unlce Ed feel that this is an NPOV article? - Willmcw 06:48, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Zappaz 17:14, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
May 13 The entry as it previously was before recent editing was repetitive, and essentially a one-sided expression of opinion as opposed to facts. This type of rant should be reserved for a personal website as opposed to a supposedly neutral fact-based database. It is now factual and balanced.
Rick Ross is an internationally known professional consultant concerning cults and controversial groups and movements. He was consulted regarding the Waco Davidians before and during the 1993 standoff with federal law enforcement.
Rick Ross is one of the best-known anti-cult activists in the United States, a former deprogrammer, and a major proponent of the " mind control" theory of " cult" involvement. His involvement as a "cult expert" in the Waco standoff was controversial.
Zappaz wishes to post a rant here and a slanted version of events, which is neither neutral or objective.
Note Zappaz at other entries such as anti-cult movement, mind control, deprogramming etc. Essentially he is a propagandist attempting to use Wikipedia to present his own very slanted version on cult-related topics.
What facts are you disputing now? The entry is factual.
Please try to keep your personal bias out of Wikipedia.
I couldn't find the source for the quote from the jury in the Scott case. Does anyone have a reference? Thanks, - Willmcw 20:17, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz--it is you that has the "chutzpah" as you are involved in expressing your opinions and not "facts." Your "editing" reads like propaganda. You really give Wikipedia a bad name. A Slate article said "Wikipedia is a real-life Hitchhiker's Guide: huge, nerdy, and imprecise." Your imprecise and biased work can easily be seen through your other so-called "editing."
Zappaz's bias is visible at " anti-cult movement," " mind control," cult apologist and " cult."
Also to better understand Zappaz's core of bias see his "editing" at " Divine Light Mission" and Prem Rawat," which read more like an adverstisement for the scandal-ridden guru that has often been called a "cult leader."
Your welcome Zappaz. Again, anyone interested can review your "editing" work on the above named sections and see what "venom" and POV/bias you have spread within Wikipedia.
You post essentially one-sided propaganda supposedly NPOV.
Try sticking to the facts.
"Relgious intolereance" sounds like your definition of criticism directed towards destructive cults. Please try to understand the concept of objective balance based upon historical facts. Groups often called "cults" can be destructive and harm people. That is evident to anyone that reads their recorded history through the mainstream press such as articles about the Branch Davidians, Aum Shinrikyo, Jonestown, the Solar Temple, Charles Manson, Heaven's Gate, the Movementent for the Restoration of the Tend Commandments, The Children of God, ISKCON, Scientology, Sai Baba and your apparent favorite Guru Maharaji, Prem Rawat founder of Divine Light Mission. Your input at Divine Light Mission and criticism of Prem Rawat is revealing.
Again, your entry on this guru reads like a POV paid infomercial.
Sadly, some entries in Wikipedia, like the one about the Branch Davidians, read more like a conspiracy theories than a historical fact-based record. And the entry on Aum Shinrikyo largely ignores the final outcome of evidence that demonstrates Asahara's guilt and "mind control" overwhelmingly. Entries like these is probably why Slate said "what's keeping Wikipedia from becoming the Net's killer resource. Accuracy is."
What world are you living in Zappaz? It seems to be one that is largely detached from history, world news and perhaps even somewhat from reality. But shouldn't "Wikiworld" be grounded in facts based upon the neutral point of view NPOV you claim to express?
Zappaz--let me be precise. I am specifically discussing your "entries" (i.e. contributions) to the previously cited sections/topics. They fit a POV pattern that is not NPOV. Hopefully you will not persist here in attempting to mislead visitors.
I am not attacking you personally, but rather the way in which you attempt to manipulate Wikipedia to reflect your POV.
Let's just stick to the facts and avoid the "politics of personal destruction."
For example your use of "scholars" is an imprecise and misleading reference as is the reference to "minority religions."
The precise politically correct term promoted by those that share your POV is actually "new religious movements" (NRMs). "Minority religions" is an imprecise term that could denote anything from Orthodox Jews to the Amish and is therefore too general.
You also use "scholars" without qualification. Actually the critical scholars you prefer to focus on like Anson Shupe or Gordon Melton work for cults, many of these supposed academics are recommended by Scientology and ohter "cults" as "resources." Nancy Ammerman was once featured in a full page article within "Freedom Magazine" published by Scientology.
Such "scholars" are not NPOV and have a POV that matches your own. Because of this they have been called " cult apologists" as you must know.
To be NPOV you should denote "some scholars," which to say the least reflects the facts.
Many scholars don't agree with those you prefer to cite preferentially and there is a growing controversy within academia about their bias.
This brings me to another point, which is your insistence on the word "controversy" or "controversial."
No serious and meaningful media reporting reflected a "controversy" during or after Waco about cult experts consulted by the BATF and/or FBI. Ms. Ammerman tried to create one along with other "cult apologists," but it never really gained any credibility and it remains only a "controversy" amongst conspiracy theorists, cults and their apologists.
Interestingly, Carol Moore is actually quite controversial, as are various cult apologists and their "research" within academia. Why not denote that controversy within your "NPOV" editing?
I am trying to be nice, but you do make that difficult at times.
Ammerman claims Ross was co-responsible but the FBI says they did not seriously consider his advice. This has to be clarified. Andries 20:39, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
If there is a "anti-cult movement" than there must be a "pro-cult movement." Zappas and other guru gaga guys try to tar everyone who says their leaders are con men with the label "anti-cult movement." Well, the people cults pay off and their spinmeisters are then part of the "pro-cult movement." If Wikipedia is going to be fair and balanced rather than becoming Wackopedia, that's the right way to make this entry.
The cult guys posting here are also trying to muddy the water and get everything fuzzy about Ross and the media. Anyone who looks through his CV or follows cult stories in the press, tv etc. knows he's on and quoted all the time. "Several magazines and newspapers" is a BS way of trying to minimize that fact. These kooks also are tying to mislead people by saying media interviews Ross because of "his interest in cults." Get real. The media calls him because of their interest and a story they are reporting. They want his input as an expert or they wouldn't bother calling the guy.
The cult guys who are screwing around with this entry are just mad that their "scholars" and other weirdos are not quoted as much and no one really cares that much about what they think. They are using Wikipedia in a get even grudge match. 208.5.214.2 11:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Try and google "expert witness" AND "rick ross". Lo and behold, only his website(s) and other anti-cult sites cite that. He claims to being an expert witness in eight states but fails to provide info on (a) when? (b) in which cases? and (c) what was the result of his involvement. Fascinating. Maybe anon can throw some light. -- Zappaz 23:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
referenced here. So you are stating that the informaiton here is false and that the "eight states" stated is a lie? Don't you think that Scientology, which has 17 pages and a 196 page PDF file on this cult expert, would mention that? Certainly would be good grist for their mill. When can you remember Scientology missing an opportunity like that? FYI--they don't mention at any time that this expert was not qualified or his testimony striken from the record. Not one word. Do you really think Scientology would overlook that? Or do you think they didn't check? See [3] And by the way, isn't being qualified and accepted in eight states as a cult expert and all the media work done as a paid professional and acknowledged cult expert not to mention the university and college lectures sufficient to come to the conclusion that POV statements like "self-proclaimed cult expert" and "cult expert" actually should be changed to recognized cult expert? Isn't that a NPOV fact? FYI--In Scientology's review of Steve Hassan's career they didn't overlook such detailed information [4]Hassan has four pages, but they certianly included specific information about his testimony as an expert witness. Zappaz--give it up, you are not making any sense at all, other than attempting to mislead Wikipedia readers and present your proudly proclaimed " cult apologist" POV.
FYI--Ammerman stated in her report, supposedly based on FBI files and notes, that the FBI relied too much on Ross. Interesting, that the FBI says they did not rely on him at all, but Ammerman contradicts this in her cited report for the Justice Department. Is Ammerman a liar? Should this contradiction between Ammerman and the FBI be cited?
FYI--The Treasury report fully acknowledges that Ross was consulted and his deprogramming of David Block is reported there and within the book "See No Evil" by Tim Madigan. The other deprogramming is mentioned elsewhere, but apparently has never been reported about in depth, probably due to privacy issues.
I read this http://www.rickross.com/reference/expert_witness/expert_witness.html (a copy of http://www.rickross.com/witness.html) and wonder. It says a lot! Just read it and tell me what you think. i.e. Latest engagement 1998. Some engagements to do with divorce cases, and most important is what is missing: his testimonies in these cases! Given how much RR peddles his purported "expert witness" stature, it makes for quite a poor (and pretty old) showing. Will be interesting to read his testimony on these cases. Maybe anon can find these and share with us. That will be nice. It will also be interesting to know the people on the Ross institute's advisory board. That will be a nice addition to the article. [5]-- Zappaz 05:02, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Let's stick to the facts and be fair to Wikipedia readers. 67.134.82.78 14:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
No point on an edit war, when the spoils are so small.... There are several articles out there I am dying to sink my teeth into. I'll tell you what... I have done as much as I could to get this article in good NPOV shape (you should have seen its shape a few months ago!). Why don't you work with Willmcw (whom I respect despite our huge differences in POVs) on putting the final touches? I promise to stay out of editing this article for a while. When I return (let's say end of May), I will comment on this talk page before doing any additional editing. Will is an experienced editor and understand the nuances of NPOV very well. You will find it easier to work with him than with badass me, as he professes a POV that may be closer to yours, I think. See you end of May! :) -- Zappaz 15:58, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Willmcw and others--One small error probably overlooked. "Scientology did not dispute this" was a reference to the Ross CV regarding his expert witness work. No need to keep these words with the current version.
The FBI has said it didn't initiate an interview with Ross, but he says they did. Shouldn't that be noted? See his "Letter to Janet Reno" [6] 67.134.82.78 12:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
There is nothing "final" or NPOV about this current version. Will, I would have expected a more balanced approach... I mean, this article fails to recognize that fact that Ross is one of the most (if not the most) controversial figure in the anti-cult movement in the US. The article rides the waves of the scandals he was involved like these were no big deal.
I intend to incorporate the factual information available about Ross and his past to this article, expand the criticism section and expand on the current business (or lack thereof) of Ross. I will do this when I have some more time, but hope that Will can incorporate some of the above to the current article. Ciao. -- Zappaz 15:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Just as previously predicted Zappaz will never be satisfied with anything less than a propaganda piece that represents his POV. He can't be NPOV. He has had his way pretty much at "cult," "anti-cult" and other related entries within Wikipedia. This guy has an agenda. The so-called "balanced approach" he advocates is nothing less than an ad hominem attack. Scientology's more than 200 pages of bashing Ross is already prominently linked, but that's not enough for him.
A little review to prove this point:
1. There was no "heist" or "bomb" the robbery was faked and Ross' partner in crime worked for the store. The charge was "embezzlement." This has nothing to do with his current work and according to my calculations occured some seven years before that. Ross was something like 22-years-old at the time. But despite the criminal record being cited twice, Zappaz, unlike a Superior Court judge that officially vacated the guilty verdicts over 20 years ago and the probation department that released Ross early in 1979, Zappaz isn't satisfied. Apprarently, the State of Arizona didn't mind quite that much since Ross was chairman of its state prison system religious advisory committee.
2. Here Zappaz seems to disagree with Jason Scott. Scott said he was "used" by Scientology very publicly on U.S. TV and no less than the Washington Post just before he fired his Scientology lawyer. He sold Ross the judgement, largely for what he originally sued over, which was Ross' consultation time.
3. The Rick A. Ross Institute is registered by the State of New Jersey as a nonprofit corp. and officially has been granted tax-exempt status by the US Internal Revenue Service, but Zappaz isn't happy about this and apparently rejects such official decisions.
4. The "ethical standards" Zappaz cites actually explain all this historically in context with pretty plain language. And Ross is referred to as a "deprogrammer" with plenty of details about the Scott case.
5. Zappaz wants to rant and have other rants included that agree with his POV. The whopper Scientology link with more than 200 pages is just not enough for him.
6. Even though Scinetology appraently can't cite anything to impeach Ross from appearing repeatedly as an expert witness Zappaz isn't satisfied. Somehow they just must have failed to mention that his CV is wrong and Zappaz wants to fix that too. Apparently Ross must now list every case to satisfy him.
Looks like Zappaz wants to have an "edit war."
Because in final analysis all he really cares about is his POV not Wikipedia or its users. 67.134.82.78 18:33, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
No, anon. An edit war is when two editors engage in reverting/deleting the other's edits. As I have refrained from editing for a few weeks, you cannot call it an edit war. Andries: you can add the Scott about face. It is a well known and documented fact, although note that we are not discussing Scott's reversal, but the controversy Ross got himself involved in during his deprogramming activities, the falling of the CAN, etc. The Scott stuff is already explored in the Scott article in WP. -- Zappaz 23:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
About your assessment that I am an "anti-anti-cultist", I must tell you that I do prefer to be considered a person that cares for:
and against:
Here is my bias, then for all to see. -- Zappaz 15:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
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The rick ross website and forum have been determined to not conform to WP:RS.
Per third-party non WP:RS material should neither be included in See Also nor External Links.
Lsi john 16:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Please check with Smee and other editors before you revert this. You will open the door to the website being used in multiple other places. If you allow non WP:RS to be referenced here, then you will also be allowing non WP:RS material to be referenced in other articles. Lsi john 17:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I will not revert a 2nd time. However, Non WP:RS is non WP:RS, regardless of the articles subject matter. Allowing it here will allow it in other places as well. That is a slippery slope.
Based on a quick review of your userpage, it seems you are anti-scientology. That is unimportant except for the basis of this explanation... Do you wish to allow an article on Scientology to be able to use non WP:RS simply because it relates to the topic of the article? (no offense or implications intended to anyone for the example) Lsi john 17:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
If you believe Rick Ross needs to defend himself, or be defended, then find a WP:RS and use that. Lsi john 17:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
There are probably more non WP:RS which need removed. You're welcome to do that or I'll get around to it later. Peace. Lsi john 17:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
An external link is not a source.
Show me the link to your mediation that has determined that Rick Ross is not a reliable source. I remember an older, informal mediation where it was agreed that he is a reliable source, due to being an expert in his field, lecturer, expert witness in court etc. -- Tilman 17:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I found this [20] and Smee agreed only about forum.rickross.com. Not Rick Ross in general. -- Tilman 18:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As to what should and what shouldn't be included in See Also and External Links.. well I try to get clarification on things like that in Admin Help and Third Opinion and Smee popped in and tried to kill my requests. I just want a set of standard.. hard and fast standards.. that can be used to decide what can be done and what can't be done. What is proper and what isn't proper. I make an edit, Smee reverts and says no no thats against the rules... then I see her make, what appears to me, to be an identical edit and I'm lost.
Anyway, its not worth the effort and struggle that its been. Though I'll have to acknowledge that I chose to engage in the struggle and thus the responsibility is mine. From here on, I'll probably limit my input to discussion pages. If she uses the input and the articles seem to balance out more, I'll stick around. If she doesn't, and the articles continue to be biased and slanted against LGAT and the good things that can be accomplished by the companies doing the seminars, then I'll leave. There needs to be a balance. The articles need to be fair and neutral. Both the bad AND the good need to be included, or wiki is what my best friend called it a blogapedia. Lsi john 22:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
On an article about a source, links to that source's website is permissible (under some limitations). See WP:V#SELF. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Please explain your position on WP:BLP.
Before you revert it, perhaps because you just don't like it, please explain specifically why it is improper to add reliable cited material to an article. Lsi john 14:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)Smee 03:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC).
Perhaps the primary reason Wikipedia has often been crticized as an unreliable research resource is the practice of editors, with an apparent "axe to grind," using it to attack someone or something they don't like. This can be seen within the editing of this entry. Rory Bowman is a supporter of the "Mankind Project." Jossi is a supporter of Prem Rawat, formerly known as the "Guru Maharaji" of "Divine Light Mission." "LSI john" is a supporter of LGATs (large group awareness training) which he prefers to call "personal growth" companies. LGATS, Divine Light Mission and Mankind Project are all included within the archives of the Rick A. Ross Institute. Having pointed this out for a bit of background let's look at a recent bit of edits. Repeatedly edits have been done recently to include the words "he considers" as a preface to "'destructive cults,' controversial groups and movements." This edit is meant to infer that inclusion of the groups is an opinion not a fact. But this is not the case. The news articles archived within the Ross Institute Web site from news reports, court records and/or links to discussion threads reflects the fact that the groups included have garnered some controversy. The label "destructive cults" or "cults" is also a description used within some of the media reports to describe some of the groups included at the Web site archives. The inclusion of the words "he considers" attempts to ignore these facts and mislead the readers of this Wikipedia entry. 24.0.42.27 14:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I have somewhat cleaned up the article, severely pruned the block quotes which I believe are a serious copyright nightmare. I have attempted to concisely smelt these into the sections. At the same time, I have used some of the [non-Ross] sources in the article to reduce the percieved bias of quoting directly from Ross. In the case of some of the more minor changes, I have removed the named source in the text where these are referenced in footnotes, as it will be clear where the citation came from. Ohconfucius 09:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Rick Ross was redirecting here because some time ago, for a good reason at the time, someone "moved" that page here.
Given that
Rick Ross is now a disambiguation page currently involving three people, this no longer seems appropriate, and the redirect has been removed.
Pdfpdf
06:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
If any user editing this page, whether an account or IP address really is Rick Ross (consultant), please see WP:COI. Rlevse 01:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I wish I was Nick Ross best TV presenter in England....O. Rick Ross? Sorry, never heard of him. He famous?
I have today reverted the edits of User:Sfacets. The Shupe & Darnell sentence referring him as a violent deprogrammer is duplicated - there already is reference to him being a "coercive deprogrammer". Then, the ref to him being a convicted jewel thief with history of psy problems is attributable to Kabbalah, who relentlessly attacks him for his vendetta against it, and is not reliable. The jewellery theft is already well known fact already abundantly detailed in the bio; AFAIK, there is no source which indicates Ross has ever been so diagnosed. Ohconfucius 09:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The reference to him being a "violent deprogrammer" isn't duplicated. Also this is in the introductory part of the section, which aims at introducing each subsection. Scientology is mentioned for example. The source that details his ,"history of psychiatric problems" is the Las Vegas Sun - it is reliable, and it mentions him agreeing to his history of psychiatric problems:
""Rick Ross is a convicted felon with a history of psychiatric problems," Omer said. True enough, says Ross.
Sfacets 10:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Although he may have said "true enough", the context isn't exactly clear: I wouldn't entirely agree that "he has had counseling on several occasions in his life, he has never been hospitalized for psychiatric care" means he had "a history of psychiatric problems". Also, when is a "coercive deprogrammer" not a "violent deprogrammer"? Ohconfucius 02:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Well if he's agreeing with the statement, then it means that it's true. Coercive is when somebody uses force or threats, but isn't necessarily "violent" which is much more in the domain of physical brutality. Sfacets 02:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
It may have been said in a placating context, however when it is written down that context vanishes, since it would be Original Research to make that assumption. Sfacets 03:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I had re-worded the intro section according to WP:LEAD and it was reverted, inviting all editor's to express their concern here... so that we can zero down on something better!! -- talk-to-me! ( talk) 06:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
As an editor I would note that single-article accounts are inherently suspicious and by themselves raise questions of WP:NPOV, so would encourage new editors to be slightly less effusive and more aware of an article's history before leaping into major revisions of a WP:Lead. Does that help explain my action a bit more? An editor may personally think that the subject of an article is the next Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard, but this adoration need not enter into clean and precise WP:NPOV edits. - Rorybowman ( talk) 15:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
This is what the lead say's presently:-
Rick Alan Ross (born 1952 in Cleveland, Ohio, United States named Ricky Alan Ross) is a consultant and lecturer in the area of his expertise, cults. He is commonly referred to as a "cult intervention specialist", term which describes method of exit counseling or de-programming.
He maintains an informative database about controversial groups, most of which are listed as "cults," and related information on the Internet, containing press articles, court documents, and essays. [1] He also own's Cultnews.com, an informative website. [2]
He has been accepted in various courts as an expert witness, interviewed and quoted by the media in the United States and other countries in relation to his expert knowledge in cults/cultic methodologies.
Ross has been criticized by some of the groups he lists on his website, by some of the scholars who study
new religious movements (NRMs),
citation needed and by other individuals in relation to the roles he played in the controversial "deprogramming" case of Jason Scott and the ill-fated
FBI
standoff with the
Branch Davidians.
what/where is the objection ! -- talk-to-me! ( talk) 07:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no list of "cults" on the site. see the disclaimer. Seems like you have a personal beef due to your interests in a group listed at the site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.4.106 ( talk) 15:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
-- talk-to-me! ( talk) 17:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor from New Jersey has concerns regarding the following sentence. Could I get some feedback, please?
- Rorybowman ( talk) 20:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
FYI--Rory Bowman is a supporter of a large group awareness training program called the Mankind Project. The Rick A. Ross Institute has a subsection about that group within its archives, which contains critical news articles. The Mankind Project is also critically discussed within the Ross Institute message board. Bowman seems to feel that this Wikipedia entry is a useful means of retaliation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.4.106 ( talk) 14:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be unchristian of me to suggest that Rick Ross get a regular editor account if he wishes to remove criticisms of his theological and professional competence by his colleagues in the anti-cult industry. The gist of both criticisms is that Ross is in many ways unqualified to offer criticism of (A) Christian groups as to to their theological orthodoxy, given his own lack of training or expertise in matters of Christian theology and apologetics (where terms such as "cult," "sect" and "faction" have subtle technical meanings) or to offer (B) psychological counseling or intervention, given his lack of credentials in those fields. Neither of these is an ad hominem attack. Is the criticism factually inaccurate? - Rorybowman ( talk) 14:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
Rephrased somewhat. ReligiousTolerance is not a website dedicated exclusively to criticism of Rick Ross. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ExitControl ( talk • contribs)
Can we use any of the following?
I've just read over the Rick Ross entry and see a particular flaw. The critics in the entry on Rick are Nancy Ammerman, Carol Moore, Kimberly Post, Catherine Wessinger, Religiousfreedomwatch.org (Scientology), Jeffrey Hadden, Anson Shupe, Darell, Religioustolerance.org. On the pro side, there is not much listed. It occurs to me that the hundreds of people Rick has helped in his dealings with cults are not people who write magazine articles, appear in court, or necessarily want to speak out in public. While I see many references to Rick's credentials on his own site (that seem undisputed) I can see why those could not be used because they could be considered possibly not NPOV. So where does that leave the Wikipedia entry? Very one-sided, imho. The entry on Rick is essentially critical, not NPOV. If there's no way to mention the people Rick has educated on cults through his speeches and media appearances, nor the people he has directly helped get out of cults, then his entry will never be NPOV. Silvertung
Don't waste your time on this guy Zappaz. Look around Wikipedia on entries of his at places like cults, mind control, brainwashing, deprogramming. After checking that out you can see what he is up to. The guy is an angry cult devotee using Wikipedia to bash anyone or anything that might expose his little guru and BS. He is proof of what's wrong with Wikipedia and why many people don't trust the entries and much of anything.
208.5.214.2
11:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
The article is full of half-truths, dubious generalizations, lies by implication and other things that people who have the truth on their side don't need to resort to. Why does it (or rather, did it talk about the Cult Awareness Network but not link to the article? It couldn't be because the article on CAN discusses the real reason behind CAN's bankrupting and buy-out, could it?
68.49.197.171's changes were taken with minor changes from here, including the POV "his moral credentials seem shaky at best." -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:13, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Rick Ross has a major criminal record, not a minor one; burglary, theft, embezzlement and yet to come; practicing psychology w/o a license, profiteering from counseling and slander. The facts are different and this article is completely slanted. Most groups that Ross lists on his site are accused of doing exactly what he's doing while accusing them of it?!?
The facts are that Rick Ross has a High School diploma and is counseling people. He also has a criminal record. Ross lists only some groups, most of which most he has no experience or knowledge; just rumors and gossip. If he was actually doing what he claims he is, then according to HIS criteria; Wal-Mart, Air Force, The Baptist Church, Rick Ross Institute, Columbia KIA-Chevy, John Ashcroft and Vita Hair Products would on that list. For now, only the groups and people that Rick Ross benefits of listing are on his list.
Rick Ross and his site are nothing more but American media smoke and mirrors. Writing a couple of articles and gaining notoriety on controversy is nothing new, but cheap '60-Minutes', Jerry Springer and Daily Mirror tabloid journalism masked into authority that he actually doesn't have and this article is just as slanted as Ross.
Ross is a questionable person because no professional would use such a flimsy and unscientific basis on their work as Ross. His theories, research/writing, hypothesis and methodology is entirely laughable and at best naive. If there is a complaint about the way an organization treats people ("like no human being deserves"), then file a police report or leave! Some people do both. All the power to them for taking action and actualy causing something in their lives.
Gossip, rumors, whining and complaints lead into nothing and that is Ross' business! In fact, it's repeat business because it leads into no one taking responsibility (esp. for themselves) and making anything actually happen. More of the same, the more fear and scandals, the better for these psychologists and "experts" like Ross who plays one on TV.
-- Zappaz 04:09, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Can anyone confirm when was the last time Rick Ross was an expert witness in a legal case? It will be good to list these cases as well, but I have not managed to find a list that support this statement: He has however been qualified and accepted as an expert witness in court cases in eight states. -- Zappaz 15:53, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I found this quote purportedly from the civil suit]:
I am not so sure of its autencity. Does any one have access to the transcript of the jury's statement? -- Zappaz 16:04, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Why is factual data is being remvoved from the article under the false pretense of NPOV?
Please do not delete these facts. Thanks. -- Zappaz 15:34, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The civil case against Ross was not $4.8 million. Other people regard him as an expert too. CAN's bankruptcy is secondary. - Willmcw 18:32, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
Just general reminder that it is the duty of each and every Wikipedia to write NPOV articles. None of us should write from a POV with the expectation that an opposing POV will someday come through and pull the article back towards neutral. Cheers, - Willmcw 02:47, Mar 31, 2005 (UTC)
Use whatever theory or rationalization you prefer, just please make sure that your actual edits are NPOV. Do both Zappaz and Unlce Ed feel that this is an NPOV article? - Willmcw 06:48, Apr 1, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. -- Zappaz 17:14, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
May 13 The entry as it previously was before recent editing was repetitive, and essentially a one-sided expression of opinion as opposed to facts. This type of rant should be reserved for a personal website as opposed to a supposedly neutral fact-based database. It is now factual and balanced.
Rick Ross is an internationally known professional consultant concerning cults and controversial groups and movements. He was consulted regarding the Waco Davidians before and during the 1993 standoff with federal law enforcement.
Rick Ross is one of the best-known anti-cult activists in the United States, a former deprogrammer, and a major proponent of the " mind control" theory of " cult" involvement. His involvement as a "cult expert" in the Waco standoff was controversial.
Zappaz wishes to post a rant here and a slanted version of events, which is neither neutral or objective.
Note Zappaz at other entries such as anti-cult movement, mind control, deprogramming etc. Essentially he is a propagandist attempting to use Wikipedia to present his own very slanted version on cult-related topics.
What facts are you disputing now? The entry is factual.
Please try to keep your personal bias out of Wikipedia.
I couldn't find the source for the quote from the jury in the Scott case. Does anyone have a reference? Thanks, - Willmcw 20:17, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz--it is you that has the "chutzpah" as you are involved in expressing your opinions and not "facts." Your "editing" reads like propaganda. You really give Wikipedia a bad name. A Slate article said "Wikipedia is a real-life Hitchhiker's Guide: huge, nerdy, and imprecise." Your imprecise and biased work can easily be seen through your other so-called "editing."
Zappaz's bias is visible at " anti-cult movement," " mind control," cult apologist and " cult."
Also to better understand Zappaz's core of bias see his "editing" at " Divine Light Mission" and Prem Rawat," which read more like an adverstisement for the scandal-ridden guru that has often been called a "cult leader."
Your welcome Zappaz. Again, anyone interested can review your "editing" work on the above named sections and see what "venom" and POV/bias you have spread within Wikipedia.
You post essentially one-sided propaganda supposedly NPOV.
Try sticking to the facts.
"Relgious intolereance" sounds like your definition of criticism directed towards destructive cults. Please try to understand the concept of objective balance based upon historical facts. Groups often called "cults" can be destructive and harm people. That is evident to anyone that reads their recorded history through the mainstream press such as articles about the Branch Davidians, Aum Shinrikyo, Jonestown, the Solar Temple, Charles Manson, Heaven's Gate, the Movementent for the Restoration of the Tend Commandments, The Children of God, ISKCON, Scientology, Sai Baba and your apparent favorite Guru Maharaji, Prem Rawat founder of Divine Light Mission. Your input at Divine Light Mission and criticism of Prem Rawat is revealing.
Again, your entry on this guru reads like a POV paid infomercial.
Sadly, some entries in Wikipedia, like the one about the Branch Davidians, read more like a conspiracy theories than a historical fact-based record. And the entry on Aum Shinrikyo largely ignores the final outcome of evidence that demonstrates Asahara's guilt and "mind control" overwhelmingly. Entries like these is probably why Slate said "what's keeping Wikipedia from becoming the Net's killer resource. Accuracy is."
What world are you living in Zappaz? It seems to be one that is largely detached from history, world news and perhaps even somewhat from reality. But shouldn't "Wikiworld" be grounded in facts based upon the neutral point of view NPOV you claim to express?
Zappaz--let me be precise. I am specifically discussing your "entries" (i.e. contributions) to the previously cited sections/topics. They fit a POV pattern that is not NPOV. Hopefully you will not persist here in attempting to mislead visitors.
I am not attacking you personally, but rather the way in which you attempt to manipulate Wikipedia to reflect your POV.
Let's just stick to the facts and avoid the "politics of personal destruction."
For example your use of "scholars" is an imprecise and misleading reference as is the reference to "minority religions."
The precise politically correct term promoted by those that share your POV is actually "new religious movements" (NRMs). "Minority religions" is an imprecise term that could denote anything from Orthodox Jews to the Amish and is therefore too general.
You also use "scholars" without qualification. Actually the critical scholars you prefer to focus on like Anson Shupe or Gordon Melton work for cults, many of these supposed academics are recommended by Scientology and ohter "cults" as "resources." Nancy Ammerman was once featured in a full page article within "Freedom Magazine" published by Scientology.
Such "scholars" are not NPOV and have a POV that matches your own. Because of this they have been called " cult apologists" as you must know.
To be NPOV you should denote "some scholars," which to say the least reflects the facts.
Many scholars don't agree with those you prefer to cite preferentially and there is a growing controversy within academia about their bias.
This brings me to another point, which is your insistence on the word "controversy" or "controversial."
No serious and meaningful media reporting reflected a "controversy" during or after Waco about cult experts consulted by the BATF and/or FBI. Ms. Ammerman tried to create one along with other "cult apologists," but it never really gained any credibility and it remains only a "controversy" amongst conspiracy theorists, cults and their apologists.
Interestingly, Carol Moore is actually quite controversial, as are various cult apologists and their "research" within academia. Why not denote that controversy within your "NPOV" editing?
I am trying to be nice, but you do make that difficult at times.
Ammerman claims Ross was co-responsible but the FBI says they did not seriously consider his advice. This has to be clarified. Andries 20:39, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
If there is a "anti-cult movement" than there must be a "pro-cult movement." Zappas and other guru gaga guys try to tar everyone who says their leaders are con men with the label "anti-cult movement." Well, the people cults pay off and their spinmeisters are then part of the "pro-cult movement." If Wikipedia is going to be fair and balanced rather than becoming Wackopedia, that's the right way to make this entry.
The cult guys posting here are also trying to muddy the water and get everything fuzzy about Ross and the media. Anyone who looks through his CV or follows cult stories in the press, tv etc. knows he's on and quoted all the time. "Several magazines and newspapers" is a BS way of trying to minimize that fact. These kooks also are tying to mislead people by saying media interviews Ross because of "his interest in cults." Get real. The media calls him because of their interest and a story they are reporting. They want his input as an expert or they wouldn't bother calling the guy.
The cult guys who are screwing around with this entry are just mad that their "scholars" and other weirdos are not quoted as much and no one really cares that much about what they think. They are using Wikipedia in a get even grudge match. 208.5.214.2 11:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Try and google "expert witness" AND "rick ross". Lo and behold, only his website(s) and other anti-cult sites cite that. He claims to being an expert witness in eight states but fails to provide info on (a) when? (b) in which cases? and (c) what was the result of his involvement. Fascinating. Maybe anon can throw some light. -- Zappaz 23:56, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
referenced here. So you are stating that the informaiton here is false and that the "eight states" stated is a lie? Don't you think that Scientology, which has 17 pages and a 196 page PDF file on this cult expert, would mention that? Certainly would be good grist for their mill. When can you remember Scientology missing an opportunity like that? FYI--they don't mention at any time that this expert was not qualified or his testimony striken from the record. Not one word. Do you really think Scientology would overlook that? Or do you think they didn't check? See [3] And by the way, isn't being qualified and accepted in eight states as a cult expert and all the media work done as a paid professional and acknowledged cult expert not to mention the university and college lectures sufficient to come to the conclusion that POV statements like "self-proclaimed cult expert" and "cult expert" actually should be changed to recognized cult expert? Isn't that a NPOV fact? FYI--In Scientology's review of Steve Hassan's career they didn't overlook such detailed information [4]Hassan has four pages, but they certianly included specific information about his testimony as an expert witness. Zappaz--give it up, you are not making any sense at all, other than attempting to mislead Wikipedia readers and present your proudly proclaimed " cult apologist" POV.
FYI--Ammerman stated in her report, supposedly based on FBI files and notes, that the FBI relied too much on Ross. Interesting, that the FBI says they did not rely on him at all, but Ammerman contradicts this in her cited report for the Justice Department. Is Ammerman a liar? Should this contradiction between Ammerman and the FBI be cited?
FYI--The Treasury report fully acknowledges that Ross was consulted and his deprogramming of David Block is reported there and within the book "See No Evil" by Tim Madigan. The other deprogramming is mentioned elsewhere, but apparently has never been reported about in depth, probably due to privacy issues.
I read this http://www.rickross.com/reference/expert_witness/expert_witness.html (a copy of http://www.rickross.com/witness.html) and wonder. It says a lot! Just read it and tell me what you think. i.e. Latest engagement 1998. Some engagements to do with divorce cases, and most important is what is missing: his testimonies in these cases! Given how much RR peddles his purported "expert witness" stature, it makes for quite a poor (and pretty old) showing. Will be interesting to read his testimony on these cases. Maybe anon can find these and share with us. That will be nice. It will also be interesting to know the people on the Ross institute's advisory board. That will be a nice addition to the article. [5]-- Zappaz 05:02, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Let's stick to the facts and be fair to Wikipedia readers. 67.134.82.78 14:27, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
No point on an edit war, when the spoils are so small.... There are several articles out there I am dying to sink my teeth into. I'll tell you what... I have done as much as I could to get this article in good NPOV shape (you should have seen its shape a few months ago!). Why don't you work with Willmcw (whom I respect despite our huge differences in POVs) on putting the final touches? I promise to stay out of editing this article for a while. When I return (let's say end of May), I will comment on this talk page before doing any additional editing. Will is an experienced editor and understand the nuances of NPOV very well. You will find it easier to work with him than with badass me, as he professes a POV that may be closer to yours, I think. See you end of May! :) -- Zappaz 15:58, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Willmcw and others--One small error probably overlooked. "Scientology did not dispute this" was a reference to the Ross CV regarding his expert witness work. No need to keep these words with the current version.
The FBI has said it didn't initiate an interview with Ross, but he says they did. Shouldn't that be noted? See his "Letter to Janet Reno" [6] 67.134.82.78 12:47, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
There is nothing "final" or NPOV about this current version. Will, I would have expected a more balanced approach... I mean, this article fails to recognize that fact that Ross is one of the most (if not the most) controversial figure in the anti-cult movement in the US. The article rides the waves of the scandals he was involved like these were no big deal.
I intend to incorporate the factual information available about Ross and his past to this article, expand the criticism section and expand on the current business (or lack thereof) of Ross. I will do this when I have some more time, but hope that Will can incorporate some of the above to the current article. Ciao. -- Zappaz 15:48, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Just as previously predicted Zappaz will never be satisfied with anything less than a propaganda piece that represents his POV. He can't be NPOV. He has had his way pretty much at "cult," "anti-cult" and other related entries within Wikipedia. This guy has an agenda. The so-called "balanced approach" he advocates is nothing less than an ad hominem attack. Scientology's more than 200 pages of bashing Ross is already prominently linked, but that's not enough for him.
A little review to prove this point:
1. There was no "heist" or "bomb" the robbery was faked and Ross' partner in crime worked for the store. The charge was "embezzlement." This has nothing to do with his current work and according to my calculations occured some seven years before that. Ross was something like 22-years-old at the time. But despite the criminal record being cited twice, Zappaz, unlike a Superior Court judge that officially vacated the guilty verdicts over 20 years ago and the probation department that released Ross early in 1979, Zappaz isn't satisfied. Apprarently, the State of Arizona didn't mind quite that much since Ross was chairman of its state prison system religious advisory committee.
2. Here Zappaz seems to disagree with Jason Scott. Scott said he was "used" by Scientology very publicly on U.S. TV and no less than the Washington Post just before he fired his Scientology lawyer. He sold Ross the judgement, largely for what he originally sued over, which was Ross' consultation time.
3. The Rick A. Ross Institute is registered by the State of New Jersey as a nonprofit corp. and officially has been granted tax-exempt status by the US Internal Revenue Service, but Zappaz isn't happy about this and apparently rejects such official decisions.
4. The "ethical standards" Zappaz cites actually explain all this historically in context with pretty plain language. And Ross is referred to as a "deprogrammer" with plenty of details about the Scott case.
5. Zappaz wants to rant and have other rants included that agree with his POV. The whopper Scientology link with more than 200 pages is just not enough for him.
6. Even though Scinetology appraently can't cite anything to impeach Ross from appearing repeatedly as an expert witness Zappaz isn't satisfied. Somehow they just must have failed to mention that his CV is wrong and Zappaz wants to fix that too. Apparently Ross must now list every case to satisfy him.
Looks like Zappaz wants to have an "edit war."
Because in final analysis all he really cares about is his POV not Wikipedia or its users. 67.134.82.78 18:33, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
No, anon. An edit war is when two editors engage in reverting/deleting the other's edits. As I have refrained from editing for a few weeks, you cannot call it an edit war. Andries: you can add the Scott about face. It is a well known and documented fact, although note that we are not discussing Scott's reversal, but the controversy Ross got himself involved in during his deprogramming activities, the falling of the CAN, etc. The Scott stuff is already explored in the Scott article in WP. -- Zappaz 23:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
About your assessment that I am an "anti-anti-cultist", I must tell you that I do prefer to be considered a person that cares for:
and against:
Here is my bias, then for all to see. -- Zappaz 15:41, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The rick ross website and forum have been determined to not conform to WP:RS.
Per third-party non WP:RS material should neither be included in See Also nor External Links.
Lsi john 16:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Please check with Smee and other editors before you revert this. You will open the door to the website being used in multiple other places. If you allow non WP:RS to be referenced here, then you will also be allowing non WP:RS material to be referenced in other articles. Lsi john 17:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I will not revert a 2nd time. However, Non WP:RS is non WP:RS, regardless of the articles subject matter. Allowing it here will allow it in other places as well. That is a slippery slope.
Based on a quick review of your userpage, it seems you are anti-scientology. That is unimportant except for the basis of this explanation... Do you wish to allow an article on Scientology to be able to use non WP:RS simply because it relates to the topic of the article? (no offense or implications intended to anyone for the example) Lsi john 17:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
If you believe Rick Ross needs to defend himself, or be defended, then find a WP:RS and use that. Lsi john 17:44, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
There are probably more non WP:RS which need removed. You're welcome to do that or I'll get around to it later. Peace. Lsi john 17:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
An external link is not a source.
Show me the link to your mediation that has determined that Rick Ross is not a reliable source. I remember an older, informal mediation where it was agreed that he is a reliable source, due to being an expert in his field, lecturer, expert witness in court etc. -- Tilman 17:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I found this [20] and Smee agreed only about forum.rickross.com. Not Rick Ross in general. -- Tilman 18:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
As to what should and what shouldn't be included in See Also and External Links.. well I try to get clarification on things like that in Admin Help and Third Opinion and Smee popped in and tried to kill my requests. I just want a set of standard.. hard and fast standards.. that can be used to decide what can be done and what can't be done. What is proper and what isn't proper. I make an edit, Smee reverts and says no no thats against the rules... then I see her make, what appears to me, to be an identical edit and I'm lost.
Anyway, its not worth the effort and struggle that its been. Though I'll have to acknowledge that I chose to engage in the struggle and thus the responsibility is mine. From here on, I'll probably limit my input to discussion pages. If she uses the input and the articles seem to balance out more, I'll stick around. If she doesn't, and the articles continue to be biased and slanted against LGAT and the good things that can be accomplished by the companies doing the seminars, then I'll leave. There needs to be a balance. The articles need to be fair and neutral. Both the bad AND the good need to be included, or wiki is what my best friend called it a blogapedia. Lsi john 22:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
On an article about a source, links to that source's website is permissible (under some limitations). See WP:V#SELF. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:02, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Please explain your position on WP:BLP.
Before you revert it, perhaps because you just don't like it, please explain specifically why it is improper to add reliable cited material to an article. Lsi john 14:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors=
(
help)Smee 03:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC).
Perhaps the primary reason Wikipedia has often been crticized as an unreliable research resource is the practice of editors, with an apparent "axe to grind," using it to attack someone or something they don't like. This can be seen within the editing of this entry. Rory Bowman is a supporter of the "Mankind Project." Jossi is a supporter of Prem Rawat, formerly known as the "Guru Maharaji" of "Divine Light Mission." "LSI john" is a supporter of LGATs (large group awareness training) which he prefers to call "personal growth" companies. LGATS, Divine Light Mission and Mankind Project are all included within the archives of the Rick A. Ross Institute. Having pointed this out for a bit of background let's look at a recent bit of edits. Repeatedly edits have been done recently to include the words "he considers" as a preface to "'destructive cults,' controversial groups and movements." This edit is meant to infer that inclusion of the groups is an opinion not a fact. But this is not the case. The news articles archived within the Ross Institute Web site from news reports, court records and/or links to discussion threads reflects the fact that the groups included have garnered some controversy. The label "destructive cults" or "cults" is also a description used within some of the media reports to describe some of the groups included at the Web site archives. The inclusion of the words "he considers" attempts to ignore these facts and mislead the readers of this Wikipedia entry. 24.0.42.27 14:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I have somewhat cleaned up the article, severely pruned the block quotes which I believe are a serious copyright nightmare. I have attempted to concisely smelt these into the sections. At the same time, I have used some of the [non-Ross] sources in the article to reduce the percieved bias of quoting directly from Ross. In the case of some of the more minor changes, I have removed the named source in the text where these are referenced in footnotes, as it will be clear where the citation came from. Ohconfucius 09:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Rick Ross was redirecting here because some time ago, for a good reason at the time, someone "moved" that page here.
Given that
Rick Ross is now a disambiguation page currently involving three people, this no longer seems appropriate, and the redirect has been removed.
Pdfpdf
06:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
If any user editing this page, whether an account or IP address really is Rick Ross (consultant), please see WP:COI. Rlevse 01:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I wish I was Nick Ross best TV presenter in England....O. Rick Ross? Sorry, never heard of him. He famous?
I have today reverted the edits of User:Sfacets. The Shupe & Darnell sentence referring him as a violent deprogrammer is duplicated - there already is reference to him being a "coercive deprogrammer". Then, the ref to him being a convicted jewel thief with history of psy problems is attributable to Kabbalah, who relentlessly attacks him for his vendetta against it, and is not reliable. The jewellery theft is already well known fact already abundantly detailed in the bio; AFAIK, there is no source which indicates Ross has ever been so diagnosed. Ohconfucius 09:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
The reference to him being a "violent deprogrammer" isn't duplicated. Also this is in the introductory part of the section, which aims at introducing each subsection. Scientology is mentioned for example. The source that details his ,"history of psychiatric problems" is the Las Vegas Sun - it is reliable, and it mentions him agreeing to his history of psychiatric problems:
""Rick Ross is a convicted felon with a history of psychiatric problems," Omer said. True enough, says Ross.
Sfacets 10:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Although he may have said "true enough", the context isn't exactly clear: I wouldn't entirely agree that "he has had counseling on several occasions in his life, he has never been hospitalized for psychiatric care" means he had "a history of psychiatric problems". Also, when is a "coercive deprogrammer" not a "violent deprogrammer"? Ohconfucius 02:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Well if he's agreeing with the statement, then it means that it's true. Coercive is when somebody uses force or threats, but isn't necessarily "violent" which is much more in the domain of physical brutality. Sfacets 02:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
It may have been said in a placating context, however when it is written down that context vanishes, since it would be Original Research to make that assumption. Sfacets 03:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I had re-worded the intro section according to WP:LEAD and it was reverted, inviting all editor's to express their concern here... so that we can zero down on something better!! -- talk-to-me! ( talk) 06:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
As an editor I would note that single-article accounts are inherently suspicious and by themselves raise questions of WP:NPOV, so would encourage new editors to be slightly less effusive and more aware of an article's history before leaping into major revisions of a WP:Lead. Does that help explain my action a bit more? An editor may personally think that the subject of an article is the next Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith or L. Ron Hubbard, but this adoration need not enter into clean and precise WP:NPOV edits. - Rorybowman ( talk) 15:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
This is what the lead say's presently:-
Rick Alan Ross (born 1952 in Cleveland, Ohio, United States named Ricky Alan Ross) is a consultant and lecturer in the area of his expertise, cults. He is commonly referred to as a "cult intervention specialist", term which describes method of exit counseling or de-programming.
He maintains an informative database about controversial groups, most of which are listed as "cults," and related information on the Internet, containing press articles, court documents, and essays. [1] He also own's Cultnews.com, an informative website. [2]
He has been accepted in various courts as an expert witness, interviewed and quoted by the media in the United States and other countries in relation to his expert knowledge in cults/cultic methodologies.
Ross has been criticized by some of the groups he lists on his website, by some of the scholars who study
new religious movements (NRMs),
citation needed and by other individuals in relation to the roles he played in the controversial "deprogramming" case of Jason Scott and the ill-fated
FBI
standoff with the
Branch Davidians.
what/where is the objection ! -- talk-to-me! ( talk) 07:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no list of "cults" on the site. see the disclaimer. Seems like you have a personal beef due to your interests in a group listed at the site. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.4.106 ( talk) 15:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
-- talk-to-me! ( talk) 17:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor from New Jersey has concerns regarding the following sentence. Could I get some feedback, please?
- Rorybowman ( talk) 20:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
FYI--Rory Bowman is a supporter of a large group awareness training program called the Mankind Project. The Rick A. Ross Institute has a subsection about that group within its archives, which contains critical news articles. The Mankind Project is also critically discussed within the Ross Institute message board. Bowman seems to feel that this Wikipedia entry is a useful means of retaliation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.4.106 ( talk) 14:33, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
It would be unchristian of me to suggest that Rick Ross get a regular editor account if he wishes to remove criticisms of his theological and professional competence by his colleagues in the anti-cult industry. The gist of both criticisms is that Ross is in many ways unqualified to offer criticism of (A) Christian groups as to to their theological orthodoxy, given his own lack of training or expertise in matters of Christian theology and apologetics (where terms such as "cult," "sect" and "faction" have subtle technical meanings) or to offer (B) psychological counseling or intervention, given his lack of credentials in those fields. Neither of these is an ad hominem attack. Is the criticism factually inaccurate? - Rorybowman ( talk) 14:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)