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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
First, there is nothing in "What is German?" that explains or rationalizes his anti-Semitism, it is merely a further example of it. What has the German reunification to do with Wagner's view that Jews were freaks of nature and could only speak in unintelligible voices? There is no cause/effect here, thus no rationalization.
Second, I see no reason to remove specific quotes from Judaism in Music from the article, this will only lead to claims that we are quoting Wagner out of context. It is certainly proper for us to provide quotes from any source document we refer to; if the article gets too long in the process, we need to split it up. -- Eloquence 19:28 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)
Your material in Judaism in Music is already stretching the bounds of quotation out of context. It is sufficient to say that Wagner offered a series of inflammatory insults against Jews in that essay - "freak of nature", "unintelligible voices", and so forth - but those are merely incidental details. They are not central to the thesis of the essay, and not central to understanding Wagner's anti-semitism. To provide an analogy, a description of the Ku Klux Klan could certainly mention the various insults which Klan members directed toward blacks - calling them "animals", and so forth - but the insults should not be mistaken for the Klan's racist goals, which was directed at reversing desegregation.
Wagner, like most other anti-Semites and bigots of other sorts, did not think of themselves as prejudiced people; they generally rationalized their hostility. For Wagner, the "problem" with Jews was that they were a foreign element standing in the way of German culture. Wagner provided this rationalization most clearly in What is German?, but also in his letters and private conversations. Your version paints a cartoon picture of Wagner - Look, here's an anti-Semite! Here are all the ugly things he said! - without providing any deep understanding of the man.
If you wish to go into a long and detailed analysis of Judaism in Music, might I suggest you do it in Das Judenthum in der Musik, which certainly needs work. -- CYD
Clutch, do you mind my asking why you keep removing the alternative URL for dJiM? It is starting to look like you don't want people to read the other one. Is there something wrong with the one that you want to remove, and if so what? And is it the case that the one that you approve of is on your own site or a site with which you are closely linked? or did I get mixed up, in which case I apologise. 138.37.188.109 08:22 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
Unrelated: If the German titles are italicized, why aren't the English? Aren't operas and symphonies and such normally italicized even after being translated? Tuf-Kat
Clutch, RK responded to your question and you haven't countered. The alternative link is there in case one of the sites goes down. Tuf-Kat
RK raised irrelevant issues. The real issue is, why did so many people keep replacing my link with another link? It is only recently that some people started putting in an "alternative" link instead of removing mine altogether. Why is that one link so important that it must be put in as an "alternative", even as none of the other links get similar treatment? Inquiring minds want to know. What is so important about putting that particular link in the article? Unlike the one I linked to, it lacks full HTML compliance and spell checking. -- Clutch 16:06 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
The reason for the alternative link is relevant. Noone even bothered to look for alternative links to the other articles. Labelling my website, Reactor-Core.org as racist is a slander, a smear, and unjustified. I see this as a personal attack on myself, part of the Judeocentric factions continuing campaign of harassment against non-bias and neutrality. -- Clutch 16:38 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
I think that we should link to http://users.belgacom.net/wagnerlibrary/prose/wagjuda.htm rather than http://reactor-core.org/judaism/judaism-in-music.html, because the former link is part of a more comprehensive website which contains Wagner's other essays as well. -- CYD
Moreover, I think a lot of the heat on this website about Wagner would simmer down if we used phrases like "widely considered anti-Semitic" rather than matter-of-fact expressions like "his anti-Semitic writings". We might even mention, if applicable, that some of his defenders (and I'm definitely NOT one of them) dispute the label anti-Semitic and don't want it applied to him or his views.
In short, don't let the article take sides. Let the article DESCRIBE what those sides are -- without evaluating who's right or wrong. I mean, for crying out loud, the reader can judge Wagner themselves based on passages such as, "all Jews are vermin who should be crushed underfoot" or whatever. Just say that Hyman Kaplonsky "regards this statement alone as definitive evidence of Wagner's lifelong virulent anti-Semitism" or something like that.
We don't need to keep fussing over this point, people. He was a brilliant composer whose views on Jews offended a lot of people. Leave it at that, eh? (Note: I am not going to touch ANYTHING AT ALL regarding the controversial anti-Semitism controversy, because I don't want to get involved in the controversy -- in case I have to do something controversial like 'protecting' the page when the controversy heats up again. -- Uncle Ed 17:22 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC))
Ed, what are you talking about? The only fuss today has been about a link to one of Wagners essay. I haven't gone near the anti-Semitism controversy for weeks. Please read the actual edit history. I haven't been altering things. -- Clutch 17:27 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
Finally. An admission that you were changing the link because you had a personal beef with me personally. Such partisanship is not neutral, nor is it appropriate for the Wiki. Slipping in ad-hominems like "your HTML is worse than some other HTML" highlights your personal bias, and willingness to ignore the truth in your personal vendetta. -- Clutch 18:05 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
Hey, Clutch, why not put the others to shame by turning the other cheek? (See: I learned my lesson.) -- Uncle Ed
I really don't think this sort of personal attack is warranted or useful. -- Camembert
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
First, there is nothing in "What is German?" that explains or rationalizes his anti-Semitism, it is merely a further example of it. What has the German reunification to do with Wagner's view that Jews were freaks of nature and could only speak in unintelligible voices? There is no cause/effect here, thus no rationalization.
Second, I see no reason to remove specific quotes from Judaism in Music from the article, this will only lead to claims that we are quoting Wagner out of context. It is certainly proper for us to provide quotes from any source document we refer to; if the article gets too long in the process, we need to split it up. -- Eloquence 19:28 Feb 17, 2003 (UTC)
Your material in Judaism in Music is already stretching the bounds of quotation out of context. It is sufficient to say that Wagner offered a series of inflammatory insults against Jews in that essay - "freak of nature", "unintelligible voices", and so forth - but those are merely incidental details. They are not central to the thesis of the essay, and not central to understanding Wagner's anti-semitism. To provide an analogy, a description of the Ku Klux Klan could certainly mention the various insults which Klan members directed toward blacks - calling them "animals", and so forth - but the insults should not be mistaken for the Klan's racist goals, which was directed at reversing desegregation.
Wagner, like most other anti-Semites and bigots of other sorts, did not think of themselves as prejudiced people; they generally rationalized their hostility. For Wagner, the "problem" with Jews was that they were a foreign element standing in the way of German culture. Wagner provided this rationalization most clearly in What is German?, but also in his letters and private conversations. Your version paints a cartoon picture of Wagner - Look, here's an anti-Semite! Here are all the ugly things he said! - without providing any deep understanding of the man.
If you wish to go into a long and detailed analysis of Judaism in Music, might I suggest you do it in Das Judenthum in der Musik, which certainly needs work. -- CYD
Clutch, do you mind my asking why you keep removing the alternative URL for dJiM? It is starting to look like you don't want people to read the other one. Is there something wrong with the one that you want to remove, and if so what? And is it the case that the one that you approve of is on your own site or a site with which you are closely linked? or did I get mixed up, in which case I apologise. 138.37.188.109 08:22 Feb 19, 2003 (UTC)
Unrelated: If the German titles are italicized, why aren't the English? Aren't operas and symphonies and such normally italicized even after being translated? Tuf-Kat
Clutch, RK responded to your question and you haven't countered. The alternative link is there in case one of the sites goes down. Tuf-Kat
RK raised irrelevant issues. The real issue is, why did so many people keep replacing my link with another link? It is only recently that some people started putting in an "alternative" link instead of removing mine altogether. Why is that one link so important that it must be put in as an "alternative", even as none of the other links get similar treatment? Inquiring minds want to know. What is so important about putting that particular link in the article? Unlike the one I linked to, it lacks full HTML compliance and spell checking. -- Clutch 16:06 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
The reason for the alternative link is relevant. Noone even bothered to look for alternative links to the other articles. Labelling my website, Reactor-Core.org as racist is a slander, a smear, and unjustified. I see this as a personal attack on myself, part of the Judeocentric factions continuing campaign of harassment against non-bias and neutrality. -- Clutch 16:38 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
I think that we should link to http://users.belgacom.net/wagnerlibrary/prose/wagjuda.htm rather than http://reactor-core.org/judaism/judaism-in-music.html, because the former link is part of a more comprehensive website which contains Wagner's other essays as well. -- CYD
Moreover, I think a lot of the heat on this website about Wagner would simmer down if we used phrases like "widely considered anti-Semitic" rather than matter-of-fact expressions like "his anti-Semitic writings". We might even mention, if applicable, that some of his defenders (and I'm definitely NOT one of them) dispute the label anti-Semitic and don't want it applied to him or his views.
In short, don't let the article take sides. Let the article DESCRIBE what those sides are -- without evaluating who's right or wrong. I mean, for crying out loud, the reader can judge Wagner themselves based on passages such as, "all Jews are vermin who should be crushed underfoot" or whatever. Just say that Hyman Kaplonsky "regards this statement alone as definitive evidence of Wagner's lifelong virulent anti-Semitism" or something like that.
We don't need to keep fussing over this point, people. He was a brilliant composer whose views on Jews offended a lot of people. Leave it at that, eh? (Note: I am not going to touch ANYTHING AT ALL regarding the controversial anti-Semitism controversy, because I don't want to get involved in the controversy -- in case I have to do something controversial like 'protecting' the page when the controversy heats up again. -- Uncle Ed 17:22 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC))
Ed, what are you talking about? The only fuss today has been about a link to one of Wagners essay. I haven't gone near the anti-Semitism controversy for weeks. Please read the actual edit history. I haven't been altering things. -- Clutch 17:27 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
Finally. An admission that you were changing the link because you had a personal beef with me personally. Such partisanship is not neutral, nor is it appropriate for the Wiki. Slipping in ad-hominems like "your HTML is worse than some other HTML" highlights your personal bias, and willingness to ignore the truth in your personal vendetta. -- Clutch 18:05 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)
Hey, Clutch, why not put the others to shame by turning the other cheek? (See: I learned my lesson.) -- Uncle Ed
I really don't think this sort of personal attack is warranted or useful. -- Camembert