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When Pearse was writing letters to newspapers he was using a very strict definition of flight - sustained, controlled flight. Pearse did not achieve this to his own demanding standards.
Hence Pearse historians often use the words "powered take-offs" or "tentative flights" instead.
I think that Pearse's letters were an expression of his own dissatisfaction at having gotten close and knowing what might get him further but, frustratingly, not having the resources to do so. Dramatic 11:50 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Agreed. He certainly used a motor attached to something like a plane to get off the ground and travel through the air. Ping 07:43 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)
While not the greatest fan of 'Richard Pearse made the first flight' claims, I have removed the not verified tag as only one citation needed event was noted, and I have supplied references for this. Winstonwolfe 04:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment: As a child growing up in NZ I recall reading in "The Guinness Book of World Records" that Richard Pearse was the first to achieve powered flight. The "controlled" definition was added to later editions of the book, and first flight credited to the Wright Brothers. If this change in definition can be verified then it might be worth noting in the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.133.47 ( talk • contribs) 5 April 2010
There's a full length documentary from 1975 about Richard Pearse here: http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/richard-pearse-1975 Please review and if you feel it's suitable you might want to add it into this article. Pukeko138 ( talk) 02:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Comment : I have no doubt Pearse flew and crash landed before the Wright Brothers, but in many ways its even more incredible that he single handedly built his flying machine and motor cycle in a garden shed in the middle of nowhere in NZ, and that included the engines !! Absolutely your typical Kiwi ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.68.74.173 ( talk) 20:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Reverted a major error - which had sat unfixed for 6 months! Snori 11:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Tēnā Kātuo
Pizza5153 ( talk) 06:12, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
I do not see ailerons on the picture, were they spoilerons? 70.118.142.235 ( talk) 05:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
an eyewitness is not circumstantial evidence, it's direct evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Romaniantruths ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
1) "Mr Richard Pearse, son of Mr Diggory Pearse, the well-known farmer, of Waitohi, expects to make the trial flight of his monoplane in a very few days now. He has been working on the airship for a long time, and is confident that he has got over many difficulties. The frame is of bamboo, the wings of strong calico, and the motor is of 24 horse-power. The trial flight will be made from a paddock which is in young wheat, but the direction is not as yet been determined upon." Source, Timaru Herald, Volume XIIC, Issue 14046, 2 November 1909, Page 5, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=THD19091102.2.19&srpos=9&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight--
2) "A young South Canterbury farmer, who has for some years past been working in secret in an endeavour to perfect a flying machine, considers that he has now nearly reached the goal at which he is aiming. He intends to make a trial flight with his airship at an early date. The framework of the ship is of bamboo, the wings all of calico, and the propelling power is a 24-h.p. motor. The inventor is Mr Richard Pearse, of Waitohi." Source, (a) Press, Volume V, Issue 13570, 3 November 1909, Page 6, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP19091103.2.28&srpos=8&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight-- (b) Colonist, Volume LII, Issue 12691, 9 November 1909, Page 2, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TC19091109.2.13&srpos=4&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight-- (c) Manawatu Standard, Volume XLI, Issue 9067, 10 November 1909, Page 4, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=MS19091110.2.21&srpos=3&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.83.160.80 ( talk) 01:15, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The article is full of speculative and unsubstantiated claims. There is no way Pearse achieved a pre-Wright Brothers flight. He did work on a powered bicycle in 1903, but even the article states that Pearse did not start working on flight until 1904. The reference for the bike is ] http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=THD19030521.2.9&srpos=5&e=--1902---1910--10-THD-1-byDA---0pearce+scott-- Town and Country], Timaru Herald, Volume LXXVIII, Issue 12072, 21 May 1903, Page 2.
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All inventors are motivated by different reasons. The Wrights might well have been considering "industrial development" (whatever that means). But Pearse had his reasons too. I don't think that there is any basis for suggesting that his own lack of interest in industry has "suppressed any recognition of Pearse's achievements". I would suggest that there has been no suppression of recognition, and furthermore that he is now over publicized in New Zealand, usually with false claims as to his "achievements". Speculative and emotive sentences like that last one in the intro should be removed. 125.236.202.112 ( talk) 04:21, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Deleted my previous irrelevant comment
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Several sections in the article have been created or expanded in recent weeks and now include excessive details and minutia about the weather and various townspeople and farmers and their births and deaths, their crops, and the like. I don't believe those kinds of facts add useful information to the reader's knowledge of the life of Pearse, the pioneer aviator. In addition, some of the new text is referenced to unverifiable or unpublished sources (for example: Biggs, Frank J (25 May 1967). "Now regarding the flight". Letter to Joseph Coll. Taiko, Timaru), which may constitute prohibited original research. I invite comment. My intention is to edit these sections with a goal of more narrowly focusing the text on Pearse and his work, summarizing what is known about him, and trimming away non-essential, distracting, irrelevant or unverifiable fill. Additional policy guidance that applies here is: wp:DUE and wp:PROPORTION. DonFB ( talk) 05:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::: The Wade and Crowley information is the most compelling evidence to demonstrate that Pearse flew multiple laps of a paddock in a seemingly sustained and controlled manner. The Crowley information also provides a date of no later than September 1903. The quotes and information is also taken from reliable secondary sources.--
Karloss12 (
talk)
20:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
::::: Miss Crowley is not "quoted" at all in the secondary source. It is her employment history (from public council records) which is being used by the secondary source author to date/synthesise the event. —
Karloss12 (
talk •
contribs)
13:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Though the Wrights were clearly the first to achieve sustained and controlled powered flight, the question of whether or not Pearse beat them into the air remains an open issue. He was certainly the first citizen in the British Empire to accomplish a powered takeoff in his own aircraft, probably as early as 31 March 1903.Based on this, the book does not claim he made powered flights, only that he made powered takeoffs, with a less-than-certain date. That the book includes these eyewitness accounts, and yet does not conclude a powered flight for Pearse with the earliest date, means they are not sufficient to make a definitive claim of powered flight in the article. Stating those eyewitness claims in this article has no point, unless we are trying to convince readers to make their own deductions based on those eyewitness claims beyond those of the author's, which is in violation of WP:SYNTH. -- A D Monroe III( talk) 03:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
What is the WP policy on consistency across articles with subjective terms such as flight?I don't believe any explicit policy exists to make a non-technical word like "flight" consistent across Wikipedia articles. (There are guidelines for technical terms in certain disciplines like medicine, mathematics, etc.) More to the point is that: Each article is based on its reliable sources. In the case of the Wright Brothers, reliable sources state unequivocally when they first made powered controlled flights, which by consensus of historians are considered the world's first. Sources for Pearse make varying claims and statements, and that's what the Pearse article is obligated to report, according to fundamental Wikipedia policy. We, as editors, are not authorized to "regularize" terms or definitions on our own. Each article is based on its sources, and if that creates ambiguity across articles, there is no "remedy", other than to scrutinize the sources and make sure they are accurately summarized in any given article. DonFB ( talk) 08:16, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
Reliable Source: The Riddle of Richard Pearse by Gordon Ogilvie. 4th Edition (revised)
Published by New Zealand's largest book publisher: Reed Publishing (NZ) Ltd
The most relevant content on the back cover:
The end of the Prologue provides the following:
Page 52, Chapter 7, Aloft: There is a single "Take off attempt" in which the plane is airborne for between 45-400 metres, which is corroborated by many witnesses. This is the March 31st 1903 flight. Ogilvie doesn't use the word "flight" for this event. Not even in the dictionary sense of the word.
Page 70, Chapter 9, Further Trials: There are many single witness accounts of 'flights', and many witnesses describe the flying machine sitting on top of a hedge for some time after the great snow of mid 1903 (The only snow storm between 1902-1905). However no accounts of how the flying machine got up there.
In the book, Ogilvie refers to a dozen or so of Pearses experiments as Flights. He also elaborates on what sub-term may be given to many flights (Powered Flight, Powered Glide etc). Many of them can be reliably dated to be in 1902 or 1903, however they all only have a single witness account or can not be match with other accounts, and therefore are deemed by the book to be uncorroborated.
A dozen or so datable uncorroborated witness accounts with accurate descriptions of the flying machine make it almost certain that Pearse was achieving flights with his aviation experiments in 1903, however the nature of the flight cannot be reliably determined. Pearse himself and historians say that Pearse never achieved Sustained Controlled flight.
I like that Ogilvie doesn't use harsh statements such as "a witness claimed" to describe witness interviews. He takes an interview at face value and tries to corroborate it with other sources.
The book describes how in 1956, George Bolt was the first to take up the task of Researching Richard Pearse. Three years after Pearse's death and five decades after the flights.
-- Karloss12 ( talk) 19:40, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Wings Over Waitohi: The Story of Richard Pearse by Geoff Rodliffe
Publisher: [Auckland, N.Z.] : C.G. Rodliffe in association with Avon Press, 1993.
In Wings Over Waitohi Rodliffe wrote:
-- Karloss12 ( talk) 21:14, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I am going to develop some article content for the 31 March 1903 flight. It is currently very brief with only two lines in the article.-- Karloss12 ( talk) 19:44, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Historians have completed dozens of independent witness interviews which contain reliably dated events. Taken together, the witness interviews and affidavits make it almost certain that Pearse was flying or hopping in 1903, or even in 1902. "The Riddle" and "Wings Over Waitohi" come to this conclusion.
I intend to develop a paragraph to present this "conclusion" in some way.
The second paragraph of the 'flights' section, categorising all of the witnesses is good.
The third paragraph of the 'flights' section passes off the dozen or so uncorroborated research related tidbits as fact (Starting with "Some witness accounts suggest......"). It is too long and itemised. It is also meaningless to a casual reader of WP. I would like to remove this list and replace it with something simple and easy to read, like the first sentence above (i.e. Historians have completed....).
About 95% of the content in the 'flights' section of the WP article is considered uncorroborated in "the riddle" and have critical differences from what appears in "the riddle". There are a couple of these uncorroborated flights which are well known in New Zealand and perhaps deserve a sentence or so, clearly concluding that they are uncorroborated. Otherwise 95% of the section needs to go.
-- Karloss12 ( talk) 21:06, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I intend to add a description of some of the notable uncorroborated flights below for reference:
1903. Multi-Circuit Paddock Flight, Richard Pearse's Farm, Waitohi
Witnessed only by John William Casey, born 1896, observed the following:
In "the riddle":
The WP article incorrectly infers that Baxter and Wade are corroborated witnesses to this flight.
-- Karloss12 ( talk) 21:06, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Taken together, the witness interviews and affidavits make it almost certain that Pearse was flying or hopping in 1903, or even in 1902. .... I intend to develop a paragraph to present this "conclusion" in some way.
Re: "Ever since the first aviation experiments, the use of the term 'flight' has often been contentious because it has no universally agreed definition" etc.
Failure is how scientific research advances. Failure is easy to achieve. If progress in pursuit of a great objective is measured in increments, then each small advance is worthy. "Aerial navigation", say to fly at will about the sky like a bird, in a self-propelled heavier-than-air flying machine, was without doubt the problem of the age and project objective of pioneering "aeroplane men". As Pearse pointed out, no one achieved navigated flight with their first aeroplane, but attaining Hargave's "some sort of flight" at that time would have been a noticeable and encouraging first step on the road to it.
If the 1904 St Louis World's Fair aeronautical contest set an acceptable standard for, or a definition of, "aerial navigation" or "flight" in aeroplanes, then perhaps, and as the grand prize passed unclaimed in 1904, no one had "flown", there or elsewhere. Regarding that 1904 event, Pearse publicly stated in 1909: "I did not, as you know, succeed in winning the prize, neither did anybody else."
The article is a biography of Pearse and his achievements. In contemporary context, Hargrave's 1901 comments represent the difficulties common among inventors. PH AKL ( talk) 22:47, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Re: "In a 1928 letter to a newspaper, Pearse summarises his own progress towards achieving flight:" etc.
Pearse's summary is already quoted in the "Debunking the myth" section. It refers to the enormous 700–900 sqft oval or circular version of his flying machine fitted with his light 25 hp water-cooled engine, mentioned in a New Zealand newspaper in 1909, and was not a pre-1904 version of his first flying machine. Pearse described flight tests that year in the November 1909 article: "I have had several tests. Last week's was my most successful one, the machine rising readily, but tilting gradually at the rear owing to the rudder in that position disturbing the equilibrium." "Next week, if my trial is satisfactory, I will make preparations for the giving of public exhibitions." From a December 1909 article: "He has already had some trials but it is not easy to balance her. He has improved on previous performances every time, and in his latest effort he few about 25 yards."
To avoid perpetuating riddles or bamboozling readers, the quote should only be used in reference to the airframe and flight tests it refers to. PH AKL ( talk) 23:21, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
The ‘Debunking the Myth’ section has been modified/replaced because it is primarily original research with an unreliable source which presents a polar opposite view with the main pack of reliable secondary sources as explained below.
Some background: The Walsh Memorial Library in Auckland possesses all of the contemporary news paper articles, documentation and witness testimonies relating to Richard Pearse’s flight experiments, including video testimonies recorded on camera by Television New Zealand in the 1970’s. These testimonies are collected from various researchers and interviewers in the 1950’s to 70’s, and letters/affidavits sent to MOTAT directly by witnesses. Museum of Transport and Technology (MOTAT) in Auckland possesses and displays much of the original physical equipment, such as Pearse’s Aircraft Engines. There are three reliable Secondary sources, which had access to the information contained in the Walsh Memorial Library Archives.
The most authoritative secondary source is ‘The Riddle of Richard Pearse’ by Gordon Ogilvie (first published in 1973, 4th edition in 2002). This book is extremely detailed. It provides names of dozens of witnesses, and their detailed explanation of events. The dates of some of these events are verified reliably (due to people moving away from the area), and anecdotally (i.e. I was pregnant when I witnessed it). Gordon Ogilvie concludes that Pearse ‘likely’ got airborne in public on 31st March 1903 (or less likely 1902), and that everyone needs to assess the evidence and make up their own mind. He refrains from referring to this event as ‘flight’.
Another reliable Secondary Source is ‘Wings over Waitohi’ by Geoffrey Rodliffe. This biography was written after ‘The riddle’ in 1993. It is aligned in most ways with ‘the riddle’, but states that the 31st March flight more likely occurred in 1902. Rodliffe refers to this event as a ‘flight’, in the dictionary sense of the word. He infers that he is satisfied that Pearse did fly in 31st March 1902, and that Pearse has let himself down by the ambiguous structure of his own letters to the media. Both of these books say that all of the available evidence points to Pearse achieving a powered take off on 31st March 1903 (or 1902), with the exception of Pearse’s own newspaper statements.
The third secondary source is a fact sheet article by MOTAT itself. The following is an excerpt from the article “Pearse’s great achievement was to design and build an aeroplane that he successfully powered into the air. It was a monoplane that was powered by a 2 cylinder petrol engine, and according to a number of eyewitness accounts, he successfully flew it into the air above his farm in the early 1900s. He managed to power his plane into the air and travel for about 150 metres before crashing into a gorse bush”, and “Using the eyewitness accounts and other circumstantial evidence researchers established what they believed to be the most likely date of Richard Pearse’s first powered take-off, on 31 March 1903”.
None of the research of the above three secondary sources has been challenged with respect to the accuracy/validity of their content. The only criticism is generic personal attacks on the authors. It can clearly be seen from these sources that there is no myth which is to be debunked. However there is uncertainty which needs to be assessed in a balanced in a non biased way.
The ‘Debunking the Myth’ is made up primarily of a collage of out-of-context Primary Sources, and a single secondary source of poor reliability as detailed below.
In the 24th April 2012 ‘ Stuff’ article, Errol Martyn says that in a newly discovered 17 November 1909 article, Richard Pearse says that “I did not attempt anything practical with the idea until, in 1904”, stating that Pearse only started flying in 1910.
In a follow up ‘ The Press’ article a week or so later on 11th May 2012, Evan Gardiner (chief executive of the Recreational Aircraft Association of New Zealand) criticizes Martyn for creating a false premise by intentionally failing to provide the context of the 1915 and 1928 articles, which demonstrate that Pearse was conducting aviation experiments with a completed aircraft in early 1904, and potentially earlier. In this 'Press' article Gardiner also refers to another recent TV interview of Martyn where he quotes the May 10, 1915 contemporary article of Pearse saying that he "started to solve the problem of flight about March 1904", claiming Martyn intentionally fails to disclose the very next sentence "The Wrights started at about the same time", which provides critical context. Gardiner also points out that Martyn knowingly, falsely claims that 48 witnesses of the 1902-03 flight experiments are ‘unnamed’, and claims without evidence that they are unable to accurately remember what happened in their lives at that time, in an attempt to have the witness testimonies discarded as irrelevant, so that any Pearse aviation experiments in 1902-03 can be disregarded. Gardener provides the correction, that the witnesses are named in ‘the riddle’ and Walsh Memorial Library archives. Many of the witnesses were also interviewed on Camera by Television New Zealand in 1960’s and 70’s. ‘The riddle’ demonstrates that many of the separate witness statements corroborate the march 31st take off event. The Pearse Wikipedia article references some of these named and witnesses, including some Youtube video’s. Gardener writes: “Over the years there have been many contenders come and go, to try to dis-establish Pearse's position in New Zealand history. Errol Martyn is the latest contender.”
So, there are three reliable secondary sources forming a main pack which rely on all of the Primary and contemporary secondary sources to come to a consistent conclusion. None of these secondary sources deal in myths, and none have ever had their evidence successfully proven wrong or debunked.
Additionally, there is the ‘stuff’ article and Errol Martyn which doesn’t challenge the three reliable sources, and instead makes a fresh assessment which misrepresents/discards much of the existing evidence, falsely concludes that Pearse started fabrication in 1904, and flew in 1909. I assess that the 'Press' article by Gardener has successfully revealed the ‘Stuff’ article and Errol Martyn’s research to be ‘unreliable’ and wrong. For Martyn to incorrectly write off the eyewitnesses as unnamed, strongly suggests that he has never visited the archives at the Walsh Memorial Library to conduct thorough research into Pearse, and therefore has limited knowledge of Pearse. There is therefore a need for Wikipedia editors to manage what to do with this wrong article. ( Wikipedia:When sources are wrong)
In re-writing the section, “Debunking the Myth” has been removed because it is false original research ( WP:No OR). ‘Uncertainty of flight experiments dates’ is a reasonable title. Where a topic is contentious or uncertain Wikipedia suggests providing a variety of the viewpoints. The conclusions of the main pack of three reliable secondary sources provide the viewpoint most recognised by researchers. There is no reason not to include them. In ‘debunking the myth’, they are not mentioned at all, which results in obvious bias ( Wikipedia:Neutral point of view).
The ‘stuff’ magazine source from ‘debunking the myth’ remains, however much of the Primary Sources and all of the original research is gone, and because the ‘stuff’ article has been directly challenged by another secondary source (Press Article), details of the challenge are included in an effort to provide balance. This complies with approach 4c of Wikipedia:When sources are wrong. Only yesterday PH AKL removed the challenge content from the opposing 'Press' article from the original 'debunking the myth' section. This is an obvious act which makes the already wrong section even more misleading and biased. He is the editor who is making periodic changes to the ‘debunking the myth’ section, failing to include any mention of the three most reliable secondary sources while favouring the 'stuff' article which is polar opposite view from the main pack, and deleting any challenge to the biassed ‘stuff’ article. If PH AKL continues behaving in this way, dispute resolution will be required. Would Wikipedia moderators please advise on how to deal with such conduct from PH AKL? PH AKL seems to have the same approach as Errol Martyn by creating the Quantum of evidence which contains selective vague information. In this section PH AKL attempts to dissreagrd the witnesses as unrelaiable, even though many of the events that they witnessed are accurately datable. Perhaps PH AKL and Errol Martyn are one and the same.
The final result is the section has all of the main viewpoints, including the fringe ’Stuff’ article (with its challenges from 'the press' article), thus being balanced, and non biased.
If approach 1 of () was used, and the ‘stuff’ article was just left out, then someone would eventually come along at some point and add it in a biased way. -- Karloss12 ( talk) 23:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Imbalance was not dealt with, and was getting worse with every edit that
PH AKL was making. The 'debunking the myth' section, with its false 'original research' title originally contained the unreliable 'stuff' article, with a correction and challenge from the Gardener 'press' article. Very recently
PH AKL removed the Gardener challenge, giving the false impression that the 'stuff' article was reliable.n
The inclusion of Gibbs-Smith in the article isn't important because his concerns are demonstrated to be unwarranted because some witness testimonies can be reliably dated by when they moved away from Waitohi. Gibbs-Smith didn't provide anything of substance to researcher Bolt. He only provided a warning about Witness reliability, and there was nothing special about this warning. Bolt assessed all of the evidence including this warning and by "mid-1958 Researcher George Bolt had tentatively concluded that all of his evidence showed that Pearse had conducted a public flight experiment on 31st of March 1903". Gordon Ogilvie makes this assessment about Bolt in 'the riddle'. Later with more evidence it was found that multiple witnesses had independently described the same 31st March 1903 Event. Multiple witnesses with a bad memory can't accidentally recollect the same event. Further more one of these 31st March witnesses left the Waitohi area in December 1903. There are also other cut off dates by other witnesses. This is why the 'stuff' article and anything which comes from Errol Martyn is disregarded as irrational and illogical. The basis for the poor memory argument is very weak, and three unchallenged reliable Secondary sources demonstrate this, however wherever possible PH AKL tries to push this weak fringe view ahead of the main view. Wherever Martyn's views are made, it should always be secondary to the main view from the reliable secondary sources. Martyn's unreliable views shouldn't be included becuase they only devalue the article.
I don't understand why the "Quantum of evidence" even exists. It was structured as though Gardener was responding to Gibbs-Smith. This is not the case. Gardener was exposing Martyn's views as irrational. The Gibbs-Smith/Errol Martyn/Gardener false memory discussion is all part of the same thing, and therefore should be contained in the same section. But I think that it all has an almost baseless premise, because multiple witness statements are dated and corroborate, as explained above. But unfortunately, 'stuff' published his drivel, and thankfully the 'press' have Gardener the opportunity to respond. For information, 'stuff' and 'the press' have the same parent company.
I don't understand why the 'question of flight' content was moved. Placing it before the 'flight' section helps to prevent readers from being confused with why so many similar flight related terms are being used for the same thing (e.g. hop, take off, flight, aviation experiment etc). It is best placed at the beginning of the article to explain why so many similar terms are used. There are definitions of flight (with respect to Pearse) which are not covered in [flight]. The secondary sources discuss the contentious use of the word 'flight' with respect to Pearse on multiple occasions. Some researchers use one definition, some use another. PH AKL's proposal that this important topic be excluded seems odd. It would result in all of Pearses paddock hops as being 'flights'. -- Karloss12 ( talk) 21:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
The original Wright airplane that took off from Kitty Hawk did not use a catapult. Apollo11reporter ( talk) 03:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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When Pearse was writing letters to newspapers he was using a very strict definition of flight - sustained, controlled flight. Pearse did not achieve this to his own demanding standards.
Hence Pearse historians often use the words "powered take-offs" or "tentative flights" instead.
I think that Pearse's letters were an expression of his own dissatisfaction at having gotten close and knowing what might get him further but, frustratingly, not having the resources to do so. Dramatic 11:50 13 Jun 2003 (UTC)
Agreed. He certainly used a motor attached to something like a plane to get off the ground and travel through the air. Ping 07:43 14 Jun 2003 (UTC)
While not the greatest fan of 'Richard Pearse made the first flight' claims, I have removed the not verified tag as only one citation needed event was noted, and I have supplied references for this. Winstonwolfe 04:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment: As a child growing up in NZ I recall reading in "The Guinness Book of World Records" that Richard Pearse was the first to achieve powered flight. The "controlled" definition was added to later editions of the book, and first flight credited to the Wright Brothers. If this change in definition can be verified then it might be worth noting in the article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.133.47 ( talk • contribs) 5 April 2010
There's a full length documentary from 1975 about Richard Pearse here: http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/richard-pearse-1975 Please review and if you feel it's suitable you might want to add it into this article. Pukeko138 ( talk) 02:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Comment : I have no doubt Pearse flew and crash landed before the Wright Brothers, but in many ways its even more incredible that he single handedly built his flying machine and motor cycle in a garden shed in the middle of nowhere in NZ, and that included the engines !! Absolutely your typical Kiwi ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.68.74.173 ( talk) 20:40, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Reverted a major error - which had sat unfixed for 6 months! Snori 11:55, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Tēnā Kātuo
Pizza5153 ( talk) 06:12, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
I do not see ailerons on the picture, were they spoilerons? 70.118.142.235 ( talk) 05:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
an eyewitness is not circumstantial evidence, it's direct evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Romaniantruths ( talk • contribs) 15:22, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
1) "Mr Richard Pearse, son of Mr Diggory Pearse, the well-known farmer, of Waitohi, expects to make the trial flight of his monoplane in a very few days now. He has been working on the airship for a long time, and is confident that he has got over many difficulties. The frame is of bamboo, the wings of strong calico, and the motor is of 24 horse-power. The trial flight will be made from a paddock which is in young wheat, but the direction is not as yet been determined upon." Source, Timaru Herald, Volume XIIC, Issue 14046, 2 November 1909, Page 5, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=THD19091102.2.19&srpos=9&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight--
2) "A young South Canterbury farmer, who has for some years past been working in secret in an endeavour to perfect a flying machine, considers that he has now nearly reached the goal at which he is aiming. He intends to make a trial flight with his airship at an early date. The framework of the ship is of bamboo, the wings all of calico, and the propelling power is a 24-h.p. motor. The inventor is Mr Richard Pearse, of Waitohi." Source, (a) Press, Volume V, Issue 13570, 3 November 1909, Page 6, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP19091103.2.28&srpos=8&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight-- (b) Colonist, Volume LII, Issue 12691, 9 November 1909, Page 2, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=TC19091109.2.13&srpos=4&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight-- (c) Manawatu Standard, Volume XLI, Issue 9067, 10 November 1909, Page 4, see: http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=MS19091110.2.21&srpos=3&e=-------10--1----0Pearse++Waitohi+flight-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.83.160.80 ( talk) 01:15, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
The article is full of speculative and unsubstantiated claims. There is no way Pearse achieved a pre-Wright Brothers flight. He did work on a powered bicycle in 1903, but even the article states that Pearse did not start working on flight until 1904. The reference for the bike is ] http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=THD19030521.2.9&srpos=5&e=--1902---1910--10-THD-1-byDA---0pearce+scott-- Town and Country], Timaru Herald, Volume LXXVIII, Issue 12072, 21 May 1903, Page 2.
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All inventors are motivated by different reasons. The Wrights might well have been considering "industrial development" (whatever that means). But Pearse had his reasons too. I don't think that there is any basis for suggesting that his own lack of interest in industry has "suppressed any recognition of Pearse's achievements". I would suggest that there has been no suppression of recognition, and furthermore that he is now over publicized in New Zealand, usually with false claims as to his "achievements". Speculative and emotive sentences like that last one in the intro should be removed. 125.236.202.112 ( talk) 04:21, 16 June 2016 (UTC)
Deleted my previous irrelevant comment
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Several sections in the article have been created or expanded in recent weeks and now include excessive details and minutia about the weather and various townspeople and farmers and their births and deaths, their crops, and the like. I don't believe those kinds of facts add useful information to the reader's knowledge of the life of Pearse, the pioneer aviator. In addition, some of the new text is referenced to unverifiable or unpublished sources (for example: Biggs, Frank J (25 May 1967). "Now regarding the flight". Letter to Joseph Coll. Taiko, Timaru), which may constitute prohibited original research. I invite comment. My intention is to edit these sections with a goal of more narrowly focusing the text on Pearse and his work, summarizing what is known about him, and trimming away non-essential, distracting, irrelevant or unverifiable fill. Additional policy guidance that applies here is: wp:DUE and wp:PROPORTION. DonFB ( talk) 05:58, 7 May 2020 (UTC)
::: The Wade and Crowley information is the most compelling evidence to demonstrate that Pearse flew multiple laps of a paddock in a seemingly sustained and controlled manner. The Crowley information also provides a date of no later than September 1903. The quotes and information is also taken from reliable secondary sources.--
Karloss12 (
talk)
20:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)
::::: Miss Crowley is not "quoted" at all in the secondary source. It is her employment history (from public council records) which is being used by the secondary source author to date/synthesise the event. —
Karloss12 (
talk •
contribs)
13:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Though the Wrights were clearly the first to achieve sustained and controlled powered flight, the question of whether or not Pearse beat them into the air remains an open issue. He was certainly the first citizen in the British Empire to accomplish a powered takeoff in his own aircraft, probably as early as 31 March 1903.Based on this, the book does not claim he made powered flights, only that he made powered takeoffs, with a less-than-certain date. That the book includes these eyewitness accounts, and yet does not conclude a powered flight for Pearse with the earliest date, means they are not sufficient to make a definitive claim of powered flight in the article. Stating those eyewitness claims in this article has no point, unless we are trying to convince readers to make their own deductions based on those eyewitness claims beyond those of the author's, which is in violation of WP:SYNTH. -- A D Monroe III( talk) 03:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
What is the WP policy on consistency across articles with subjective terms such as flight?I don't believe any explicit policy exists to make a non-technical word like "flight" consistent across Wikipedia articles. (There are guidelines for technical terms in certain disciplines like medicine, mathematics, etc.) More to the point is that: Each article is based on its reliable sources. In the case of the Wright Brothers, reliable sources state unequivocally when they first made powered controlled flights, which by consensus of historians are considered the world's first. Sources for Pearse make varying claims and statements, and that's what the Pearse article is obligated to report, according to fundamental Wikipedia policy. We, as editors, are not authorized to "regularize" terms or definitions on our own. Each article is based on its sources, and if that creates ambiguity across articles, there is no "remedy", other than to scrutinize the sources and make sure they are accurately summarized in any given article. DonFB ( talk) 08:16, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
Reliable Source: The Riddle of Richard Pearse by Gordon Ogilvie. 4th Edition (revised)
Published by New Zealand's largest book publisher: Reed Publishing (NZ) Ltd
The most relevant content on the back cover:
The end of the Prologue provides the following:
Page 52, Chapter 7, Aloft: There is a single "Take off attempt" in which the plane is airborne for between 45-400 metres, which is corroborated by many witnesses. This is the March 31st 1903 flight. Ogilvie doesn't use the word "flight" for this event. Not even in the dictionary sense of the word.
Page 70, Chapter 9, Further Trials: There are many single witness accounts of 'flights', and many witnesses describe the flying machine sitting on top of a hedge for some time after the great snow of mid 1903 (The only snow storm between 1902-1905). However no accounts of how the flying machine got up there.
In the book, Ogilvie refers to a dozen or so of Pearses experiments as Flights. He also elaborates on what sub-term may be given to many flights (Powered Flight, Powered Glide etc). Many of them can be reliably dated to be in 1902 or 1903, however they all only have a single witness account or can not be match with other accounts, and therefore are deemed by the book to be uncorroborated.
A dozen or so datable uncorroborated witness accounts with accurate descriptions of the flying machine make it almost certain that Pearse was achieving flights with his aviation experiments in 1903, however the nature of the flight cannot be reliably determined. Pearse himself and historians say that Pearse never achieved Sustained Controlled flight.
I like that Ogilvie doesn't use harsh statements such as "a witness claimed" to describe witness interviews. He takes an interview at face value and tries to corroborate it with other sources.
The book describes how in 1956, George Bolt was the first to take up the task of Researching Richard Pearse. Three years after Pearse's death and five decades after the flights.
-- Karloss12 ( talk) 19:40, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Wings Over Waitohi: The Story of Richard Pearse by Geoff Rodliffe
Publisher: [Auckland, N.Z.] : C.G. Rodliffe in association with Avon Press, 1993.
In Wings Over Waitohi Rodliffe wrote:
-- Karloss12 ( talk) 21:14, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I am going to develop some article content for the 31 March 1903 flight. It is currently very brief with only two lines in the article.-- Karloss12 ( talk) 19:44, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Historians have completed dozens of independent witness interviews which contain reliably dated events. Taken together, the witness interviews and affidavits make it almost certain that Pearse was flying or hopping in 1903, or even in 1902. "The Riddle" and "Wings Over Waitohi" come to this conclusion.
I intend to develop a paragraph to present this "conclusion" in some way.
The second paragraph of the 'flights' section, categorising all of the witnesses is good.
The third paragraph of the 'flights' section passes off the dozen or so uncorroborated research related tidbits as fact (Starting with "Some witness accounts suggest......"). It is too long and itemised. It is also meaningless to a casual reader of WP. I would like to remove this list and replace it with something simple and easy to read, like the first sentence above (i.e. Historians have completed....).
About 95% of the content in the 'flights' section of the WP article is considered uncorroborated in "the riddle" and have critical differences from what appears in "the riddle". There are a couple of these uncorroborated flights which are well known in New Zealand and perhaps deserve a sentence or so, clearly concluding that they are uncorroborated. Otherwise 95% of the section needs to go.
-- Karloss12 ( talk) 21:06, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
I intend to add a description of some of the notable uncorroborated flights below for reference:
1903. Multi-Circuit Paddock Flight, Richard Pearse's Farm, Waitohi
Witnessed only by John William Casey, born 1896, observed the following:
In "the riddle":
The WP article incorrectly infers that Baxter and Wade are corroborated witnesses to this flight.
-- Karloss12 ( talk) 21:06, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
Taken together, the witness interviews and affidavits make it almost certain that Pearse was flying or hopping in 1903, or even in 1902. .... I intend to develop a paragraph to present this "conclusion" in some way.
Re: "Ever since the first aviation experiments, the use of the term 'flight' has often been contentious because it has no universally agreed definition" etc.
Failure is how scientific research advances. Failure is easy to achieve. If progress in pursuit of a great objective is measured in increments, then each small advance is worthy. "Aerial navigation", say to fly at will about the sky like a bird, in a self-propelled heavier-than-air flying machine, was without doubt the problem of the age and project objective of pioneering "aeroplane men". As Pearse pointed out, no one achieved navigated flight with their first aeroplane, but attaining Hargave's "some sort of flight" at that time would have been a noticeable and encouraging first step on the road to it.
If the 1904 St Louis World's Fair aeronautical contest set an acceptable standard for, or a definition of, "aerial navigation" or "flight" in aeroplanes, then perhaps, and as the grand prize passed unclaimed in 1904, no one had "flown", there or elsewhere. Regarding that 1904 event, Pearse publicly stated in 1909: "I did not, as you know, succeed in winning the prize, neither did anybody else."
The article is a biography of Pearse and his achievements. In contemporary context, Hargrave's 1901 comments represent the difficulties common among inventors. PH AKL ( talk) 22:47, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
Re: "In a 1928 letter to a newspaper, Pearse summarises his own progress towards achieving flight:" etc.
Pearse's summary is already quoted in the "Debunking the myth" section. It refers to the enormous 700–900 sqft oval or circular version of his flying machine fitted with his light 25 hp water-cooled engine, mentioned in a New Zealand newspaper in 1909, and was not a pre-1904 version of his first flying machine. Pearse described flight tests that year in the November 1909 article: "I have had several tests. Last week's was my most successful one, the machine rising readily, but tilting gradually at the rear owing to the rudder in that position disturbing the equilibrium." "Next week, if my trial is satisfactory, I will make preparations for the giving of public exhibitions." From a December 1909 article: "He has already had some trials but it is not easy to balance her. He has improved on previous performances every time, and in his latest effort he few about 25 yards."
To avoid perpetuating riddles or bamboozling readers, the quote should only be used in reference to the airframe and flight tests it refers to. PH AKL ( talk) 23:21, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
The ‘Debunking the Myth’ section has been modified/replaced because it is primarily original research with an unreliable source which presents a polar opposite view with the main pack of reliable secondary sources as explained below.
Some background: The Walsh Memorial Library in Auckland possesses all of the contemporary news paper articles, documentation and witness testimonies relating to Richard Pearse’s flight experiments, including video testimonies recorded on camera by Television New Zealand in the 1970’s. These testimonies are collected from various researchers and interviewers in the 1950’s to 70’s, and letters/affidavits sent to MOTAT directly by witnesses. Museum of Transport and Technology (MOTAT) in Auckland possesses and displays much of the original physical equipment, such as Pearse’s Aircraft Engines. There are three reliable Secondary sources, which had access to the information contained in the Walsh Memorial Library Archives.
The most authoritative secondary source is ‘The Riddle of Richard Pearse’ by Gordon Ogilvie (first published in 1973, 4th edition in 2002). This book is extremely detailed. It provides names of dozens of witnesses, and their detailed explanation of events. The dates of some of these events are verified reliably (due to people moving away from the area), and anecdotally (i.e. I was pregnant when I witnessed it). Gordon Ogilvie concludes that Pearse ‘likely’ got airborne in public on 31st March 1903 (or less likely 1902), and that everyone needs to assess the evidence and make up their own mind. He refrains from referring to this event as ‘flight’.
Another reliable Secondary Source is ‘Wings over Waitohi’ by Geoffrey Rodliffe. This biography was written after ‘The riddle’ in 1993. It is aligned in most ways with ‘the riddle’, but states that the 31st March flight more likely occurred in 1902. Rodliffe refers to this event as a ‘flight’, in the dictionary sense of the word. He infers that he is satisfied that Pearse did fly in 31st March 1902, and that Pearse has let himself down by the ambiguous structure of his own letters to the media. Both of these books say that all of the available evidence points to Pearse achieving a powered take off on 31st March 1903 (or 1902), with the exception of Pearse’s own newspaper statements.
The third secondary source is a fact sheet article by MOTAT itself. The following is an excerpt from the article “Pearse’s great achievement was to design and build an aeroplane that he successfully powered into the air. It was a monoplane that was powered by a 2 cylinder petrol engine, and according to a number of eyewitness accounts, he successfully flew it into the air above his farm in the early 1900s. He managed to power his plane into the air and travel for about 150 metres before crashing into a gorse bush”, and “Using the eyewitness accounts and other circumstantial evidence researchers established what they believed to be the most likely date of Richard Pearse’s first powered take-off, on 31 March 1903”.
None of the research of the above three secondary sources has been challenged with respect to the accuracy/validity of their content. The only criticism is generic personal attacks on the authors. It can clearly be seen from these sources that there is no myth which is to be debunked. However there is uncertainty which needs to be assessed in a balanced in a non biased way.
The ‘Debunking the Myth’ is made up primarily of a collage of out-of-context Primary Sources, and a single secondary source of poor reliability as detailed below.
In the 24th April 2012 ‘ Stuff’ article, Errol Martyn says that in a newly discovered 17 November 1909 article, Richard Pearse says that “I did not attempt anything practical with the idea until, in 1904”, stating that Pearse only started flying in 1910.
In a follow up ‘ The Press’ article a week or so later on 11th May 2012, Evan Gardiner (chief executive of the Recreational Aircraft Association of New Zealand) criticizes Martyn for creating a false premise by intentionally failing to provide the context of the 1915 and 1928 articles, which demonstrate that Pearse was conducting aviation experiments with a completed aircraft in early 1904, and potentially earlier. In this 'Press' article Gardiner also refers to another recent TV interview of Martyn where he quotes the May 10, 1915 contemporary article of Pearse saying that he "started to solve the problem of flight about March 1904", claiming Martyn intentionally fails to disclose the very next sentence "The Wrights started at about the same time", which provides critical context. Gardiner also points out that Martyn knowingly, falsely claims that 48 witnesses of the 1902-03 flight experiments are ‘unnamed’, and claims without evidence that they are unable to accurately remember what happened in their lives at that time, in an attempt to have the witness testimonies discarded as irrelevant, so that any Pearse aviation experiments in 1902-03 can be disregarded. Gardener provides the correction, that the witnesses are named in ‘the riddle’ and Walsh Memorial Library archives. Many of the witnesses were also interviewed on Camera by Television New Zealand in 1960’s and 70’s. ‘The riddle’ demonstrates that many of the separate witness statements corroborate the march 31st take off event. The Pearse Wikipedia article references some of these named and witnesses, including some Youtube video’s. Gardener writes: “Over the years there have been many contenders come and go, to try to dis-establish Pearse's position in New Zealand history. Errol Martyn is the latest contender.”
So, there are three reliable secondary sources forming a main pack which rely on all of the Primary and contemporary secondary sources to come to a consistent conclusion. None of these secondary sources deal in myths, and none have ever had their evidence successfully proven wrong or debunked.
Additionally, there is the ‘stuff’ article and Errol Martyn which doesn’t challenge the three reliable sources, and instead makes a fresh assessment which misrepresents/discards much of the existing evidence, falsely concludes that Pearse started fabrication in 1904, and flew in 1909. I assess that the 'Press' article by Gardener has successfully revealed the ‘Stuff’ article and Errol Martyn’s research to be ‘unreliable’ and wrong. For Martyn to incorrectly write off the eyewitnesses as unnamed, strongly suggests that he has never visited the archives at the Walsh Memorial Library to conduct thorough research into Pearse, and therefore has limited knowledge of Pearse. There is therefore a need for Wikipedia editors to manage what to do with this wrong article. ( Wikipedia:When sources are wrong)
In re-writing the section, “Debunking the Myth” has been removed because it is false original research ( WP:No OR). ‘Uncertainty of flight experiments dates’ is a reasonable title. Where a topic is contentious or uncertain Wikipedia suggests providing a variety of the viewpoints. The conclusions of the main pack of three reliable secondary sources provide the viewpoint most recognised by researchers. There is no reason not to include them. In ‘debunking the myth’, they are not mentioned at all, which results in obvious bias ( Wikipedia:Neutral point of view).
The ‘stuff’ magazine source from ‘debunking the myth’ remains, however much of the Primary Sources and all of the original research is gone, and because the ‘stuff’ article has been directly challenged by another secondary source (Press Article), details of the challenge are included in an effort to provide balance. This complies with approach 4c of Wikipedia:When sources are wrong. Only yesterday PH AKL removed the challenge content from the opposing 'Press' article from the original 'debunking the myth' section. This is an obvious act which makes the already wrong section even more misleading and biased. He is the editor who is making periodic changes to the ‘debunking the myth’ section, failing to include any mention of the three most reliable secondary sources while favouring the 'stuff' article which is polar opposite view from the main pack, and deleting any challenge to the biassed ‘stuff’ article. If PH AKL continues behaving in this way, dispute resolution will be required. Would Wikipedia moderators please advise on how to deal with such conduct from PH AKL? PH AKL seems to have the same approach as Errol Martyn by creating the Quantum of evidence which contains selective vague information. In this section PH AKL attempts to dissreagrd the witnesses as unrelaiable, even though many of the events that they witnessed are accurately datable. Perhaps PH AKL and Errol Martyn are one and the same.
The final result is the section has all of the main viewpoints, including the fringe ’Stuff’ article (with its challenges from 'the press' article), thus being balanced, and non biased.
If approach 1 of () was used, and the ‘stuff’ article was just left out, then someone would eventually come along at some point and add it in a biased way. -- Karloss12 ( talk) 23:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
Imbalance was not dealt with, and was getting worse with every edit that
PH AKL was making. The 'debunking the myth' section, with its false 'original research' title originally contained the unreliable 'stuff' article, with a correction and challenge from the Gardener 'press' article. Very recently
PH AKL removed the Gardener challenge, giving the false impression that the 'stuff' article was reliable.n
The inclusion of Gibbs-Smith in the article isn't important because his concerns are demonstrated to be unwarranted because some witness testimonies can be reliably dated by when they moved away from Waitohi. Gibbs-Smith didn't provide anything of substance to researcher Bolt. He only provided a warning about Witness reliability, and there was nothing special about this warning. Bolt assessed all of the evidence including this warning and by "mid-1958 Researcher George Bolt had tentatively concluded that all of his evidence showed that Pearse had conducted a public flight experiment on 31st of March 1903". Gordon Ogilvie makes this assessment about Bolt in 'the riddle'. Later with more evidence it was found that multiple witnesses had independently described the same 31st March 1903 Event. Multiple witnesses with a bad memory can't accidentally recollect the same event. Further more one of these 31st March witnesses left the Waitohi area in December 1903. There are also other cut off dates by other witnesses. This is why the 'stuff' article and anything which comes from Errol Martyn is disregarded as irrational and illogical. The basis for the poor memory argument is very weak, and three unchallenged reliable Secondary sources demonstrate this, however wherever possible PH AKL tries to push this weak fringe view ahead of the main view. Wherever Martyn's views are made, it should always be secondary to the main view from the reliable secondary sources. Martyn's unreliable views shouldn't be included becuase they only devalue the article.
I don't understand why the "Quantum of evidence" even exists. It was structured as though Gardener was responding to Gibbs-Smith. This is not the case. Gardener was exposing Martyn's views as irrational. The Gibbs-Smith/Errol Martyn/Gardener false memory discussion is all part of the same thing, and therefore should be contained in the same section. But I think that it all has an almost baseless premise, because multiple witness statements are dated and corroborate, as explained above. But unfortunately, 'stuff' published his drivel, and thankfully the 'press' have Gardener the opportunity to respond. For information, 'stuff' and 'the press' have the same parent company.
I don't understand why the 'question of flight' content was moved. Placing it before the 'flight' section helps to prevent readers from being confused with why so many similar flight related terms are being used for the same thing (e.g. hop, take off, flight, aviation experiment etc). It is best placed at the beginning of the article to explain why so many similar terms are used. There are definitions of flight (with respect to Pearse) which are not covered in [flight]. The secondary sources discuss the contentious use of the word 'flight' with respect to Pearse on multiple occasions. Some researchers use one definition, some use another. PH AKL's proposal that this important topic be excluded seems odd. It would result in all of Pearses paddock hops as being 'flights'. -- Karloss12 ( talk) 21:01, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
The original Wright airplane that took off from Kitty Hawk did not use a catapult. Apollo11reporter ( talk) 03:46, 26 June 2024 (UTC)