Richard Gagnon has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
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A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
June 17, 2020. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
a former school band teacher became the
Archbishop of Winnipeg? |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
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|
The result was: promoted by
Yoninah (
talk) 11:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Created by Bloom6132 ( talk). Self-nominated at 00:02, 7 May 2020 (UTC).
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Reidgreg ( talk · contribs) 13:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Review to be forthcoming. – Reidgreg ( talk) 13:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
went on to serve→ served
the title of Monsignor a year later→ the title of monsignor a year later (for more information, see: MOS:JOBTITLE)
Philip S. Lee, the Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba and alumni of the college→ and an alumnus of the college
that began the 1980s→ in the 1980s
He even reached out to lapsed and former CatholicsI feel that there's a slight tone issue with even, which gives emphasis without explaining why it is being emphasized. Suggest removing, or maybe replacing with 'also'.
this included "full payment to the bond owners", many of whom were parishioners asked by the Diocese to purchase these bonds.I feel that the underlined part could be removed.
Favero's refusal to sack the administratorsack has a lot of homonyms and isn't universally understood to mean 'terminated from employment'. Suggest changing: sack → dismiss
was influenced by that of Modeste Demers, who was both Gagnon's collateral ancestor and predecessor as bishop of the Diocese.This is from his consecration. The information after the comma is already given in the section Early life, which talks about the ancestral relation and that Demers was the first bishop. This should be given in one place or the other, not both (or, alternatively, could have the lineage in one place and that he was the first bishop in the other). Since there are no other people named Demers in the article, the second mention could be simply "Demers" (per MOS:SURNAME).
"Gagnon's aforementioned ancestor and predecessor as bishop of the Diocese". I'm not sure those who first read the "Early life" section will later be able to put two and two together that Gagnon was Demers' successor, and I don't want to mention Gagnon's ministry as bishop in "Early life". — Bloom6132 ( talk) 22:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
the Diocese won an appeal at the Washington Court of Appeals, successfully reversing a 2005 judgment against it claiming US$8.5 million in damages for breach of contract.I don't think that a judgement "claims" anything. The case brought forward makes the claim and the judgement is the $8.5 million in damages. Suggest: the Washington Court of Appeals reversed a 2005 judgement against the Diocese of US$8.5 million in damages for breach of contract.
Only when the situation became increasingly difficult in November of that same year did Favero again request a sabbatical, starting in the spring of 2007.It's not confusing, so not covered under the GA criteria, but it feels a little wordy to me. Consider: When the situation became increasingly difficult in November, Favero requested a sabbatical to have begun in spring 2007.
Motto "To obey is to serve in love"is only present in the infobox, so it's difficult to tell its source. As a quotation, the GA criteria require it to have an inline citation. It can be sourced to
ref name=archdiocese
, with citation either in the infobox or preferably somewhere in the body of the article. (Or, if it's not that important to an understanding of the subject, remove it.)The discord between Favero and Gagnon was later resolved when Favero "took responsibility for not honouring confidentiality and misrepresenting events".I wish there was another source to provide a little more context on this. Suggest: The discord between Favero and Gagnon was later resolved; the Times Colonist reported in 2013 that Favero had "[taken] responsibility for not honouring confidentiality and misrepresenting events".
a special mass, to be conducted by Bishop Gagnon and to include drummers and singers from the T'Souke Nation and the St. Rose of Lima choir.Here are citation details: cite news|title=New church for St. Rose of Lima congregation. |date= May 9, 2012|work=The Sooke Mirror |location= Sooke, British Columbia| |page=5 |publisher= Black Press |id= ProQuest 1011579210 |access-date=May 22, 2020 |url-access=subscription |quote=On May 5, 2012 Catholic Diocese of Victoria Bishop Richard Gagnon and T'Sou-ke Nation Chief Gordon Planes led celebrations marking the official opening of the new St. Rose of Lima Catholic church in Sooke.
Gagnon contended that Favero had requested to resign in late spring of 2006 – before the issue arose – "for personal reasons", with Gagnon asking him to remain.and
but that he "[did] not want a public battle with the bishop".The context makes these sound like quotations from Gagnon and/or Favero. However, rather than being direct quotes, the source is paraphrasing them, so the quotes are from the author of the source, Shannon Moneo. So I feel that they should either be paraphrased or framed so that it's clear they are attributed to Moneo, e.g. According to freelance journalist Shannon Moneo, Favero "[did] not want a public battle with the bishop".
Favero was reluctant to do so, and his decision to consult with the parish council incensed Gagnon, who reprimanded him for breaching confidentiality.The underlined part is according to Favero, and the article should state this as his opinion rather than objective fact. Suggest: and decided to consult with the parish council. Favero said that this incensed Gagnon, who reprimanded him for breaching confidentiality.
He had his second audience with Pope Francis that year on December 9The source doesn't specifically say that it was his second audience; he had at least two that year. The earlier audience on 27 March was part of a visit of about a week; could there have been another audience during that time? Probably not if it wasn't mentioned, but I would feel more comfortable if this was changed: his second audience → another audience.
in his past positions made him an ideal selection as Archbishop.the source said that he would be "a good choice", so I feel it should be toned down a bit from "ideal selection". Perhaps "made him a fitting selection for Archbishop" or "made him suitable for the position of Archbishop".
One image tagged with CC licence. Some reviewers might want more images, and a bio pic of the subject would be ideal if a free one could be obtained, and there are probably free images of some of the places he's worked. But I don't feel it's necessary to an understanding of the subject.
Although not part of the GA criteria, here are some other areas you might want to improve:
|residence=
parameter doesn't have to be used at all, Winnipeg is already given as his See, and former residences don't apply. (I think residence is usually used for a specific location, like The White House, rather than a city.) Similarly, |alma_mater=
should be only for the highest stage of the subject's education, if at all. Non-notable family members don't have to be listed. The motto "To obey is to serve in love" isn't in the article and is unsourced. Really, anything which isn't prominent in the article or a defining characteristic of the subject shouldn't be there.A lot of primary sources which is probably normal for a subject like this (for academics or clergy). These primary sources are used for positions, dates and colleagues, and I didn't spot anything controversial or non-neutral. I feel that it would benefit from a little bit of copy editing and context/cleanup around some of the quotations, and it should be good. I am putting the review on hold for seven days for edits to meet the GA criteria. Please feel free to discuss anything, and let me know when you're ready for me to have another look at it. – Reidgreg ( talk) 21:08, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
"Gagnon said he was shocked at the findings of the inquiry, after having met Vanier on multiple occasions and visiting L’Arche communities in Vancouver and France."— Bloom6132 ( talk) 02:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Having been reverted by Bloom6132, I want to bring the matter to the talk page for discussion.
Firstly, the article uses the phrase " bishop of the Catholic Church". As the word bishop is a separate link, when I first clicked it, I assumed I would be directed to an article about bishops generally; however, I was linked to the article Bishop in the Catholic Church. In line with the principle of least astonishment, I changed it to use one link for the whole phrase (i.e., " bishop of the Catholic Church"). This is in accordance with MOS:LINKCLARITY which provides:
The article linked to should correspond as closely as possible to the term showing as the link, given the context: for example, When Mozart wrote his Requiem (See also § Piped links on how to achieve this) rather than When Mozart wrote his Requiem, or Previn conducted Mozart's Requiem rather than Previn conducted Mozart's Requiem—this makes it clear the link is to the article on Mozart's Requiem in particular, rather than that on requiems in general. The link target and the link label do not have to match exactly, but the link must be as intuitive as possible (see § Intuitiveness).
That being the case, I am wondering what Bloom6132's objection is. If " bishop of the Catholic Church" (linking to the general article about bishops) would be preferred for some reason, I would be amenable, but I do not see how the existing revision conforms to the MOS.
Secondly, the caption of the primary image in the infobox currently reads "Gagnon in 2002, when he was a parish priest in Vancouver." I removed the period to conform to MOS:CAPTION which provides: "Most captions are not complete sentences but merely sentence fragments which should not end with a period." I'm not clear as to why Bloom6132 wishes to retain the period.
Lastly, the infobox currently lists the subject's denomination as "Roman Catholic" and his church as "Roman Catholic Church". I suspect Bloom6132 is already familiar, but for those who aren't, in official usage, the term Roman Catholic Church refers to the entirety of the church in communion with the See of Rome. That is to say the term is inclusive of the Roman Catholic Church's 24 autonomous particular churches sui iuris (the Latin Church and the 23 Eastern Catholic churches).
Given that the denomination field already indicates the subject's Roman Catholicism, I included "Latin Church" in the church field. The inclusion of the relevant autonomous particular church sui iuris in that field is a common practice. A survey of the articles for the senior bishop in each of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches, for example, shows that they uniformly include the name of the autonomous particular church. [a] As before, I'm not sure what Bloom6132 takes issue with there.
Bloom6132, could you please clarify? Thanks, 142.161.113.242 ( talk) 03:22, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
"religions (e.g., Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism)"generally should not be linked, and the Catholic Church is a denomination of Christianity. I see no reason why the lead should not link the religious denomination that the subject belongs to (given that is the only part of the article prose that links this). Also, I don't see how "the inclusion of the relevant autonomous particular church sui iuris in that field is a common practice". I know of no other article of a bishop that is at featured or good article status that uses the terminology "Latin Church". If you do have an example of FAs or GAs that use such terminology, please cite them. I have no inclination of having this good article de-listed because some IP thinks their personal taste should overrule consensus. — Bloom6132 ( talk) 03:31, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
This article went through a [ GAN review] just over a year ago, which also checked that it was in compliance with MOS.That's not true. The good article criteria only require compliance with the MOS "for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation". WP:GAN explicitly states, "Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style or its subpages is not required for good articles."
MOS:OVERLINK only saysI'm not clear as to WP:OVERLINK's relevance here. No one is suggesting that there is overlinking nor that we can't link to Catholic Church. As you'll recall, I even suggested " bishop of the Catholic Church" as an alternative to my original proposal. Could you clarify what it is you mean? And regarding the existing text in the lead, how do you reconcile the use of " bishop of the Catholic Church" with MOS:LINKCLARITY?"religions (e.g., Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism)"generally should not be linked, and the Catholic Church is a denomination of Christianity.
I know of no other article of a bishop that is at featured or good article status that uses the terminology "Latin Church". If you do have an example of FAs or GAs that use such terminology, please cite them.I'm speaking to whether the name of the relevant autonomous particular church sui iuris is used in the church field rather than whether the term Latin Church is used. Do you view the rationale for not including the name of the autonomous particular church in that field of the infobox for Latin bishops as being distinct from the case of other Roman Catholic bishops? As to examples, while I should note that the scope of our enquiry should not be limited to FAs and GAs, I would point to Elias Zoghby and Gregorio Pietro Agagianian as examples of GAs that name the relevant autonomous particular church.
I have no inclination of having this good article de-listed because some IP thinks their personal taste should overrule consensus.So, a few things here: Firstly, what about what I wrote could possibly lead to the article losing good article status? Which of the six good article criteria do you think my concerns pertain to? Secondly, arguments of the class referred to on the page to which you linked – Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid on discussion pages § Personal taste – "make no use of policies, guidelines, or even logic." I've already pointed out multiple guidelines to which the article does not appear to conform and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that I am failing to employ any logic here. Thirdly, I'm not sure of what relevance my being unregistered is here. And finally, what leads you to believe that consensus is being "overruled"? To the contrary, this talk page is a forum by which consensus is generated. 142.161.113.242 ( talk) 06:02, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Notes
Richard Gagnon has been listed as one of the Philosophy and religion good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
June 17, 2020. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
a former school band teacher became the
Archbishop of Winnipeg? |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The result was: promoted by
Yoninah (
talk) 11:43, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Created by Bloom6132 ( talk). Self-nominated at 00:02, 7 May 2020 (UTC).
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Reidgreg ( talk · contribs) 13:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Review to be forthcoming. – Reidgreg ( talk) 13:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
went on to serve→ served
the title of Monsignor a year later→ the title of monsignor a year later (for more information, see: MOS:JOBTITLE)
Philip S. Lee, the Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba and alumni of the college→ and an alumnus of the college
that began the 1980s→ in the 1980s
He even reached out to lapsed and former CatholicsI feel that there's a slight tone issue with even, which gives emphasis without explaining why it is being emphasized. Suggest removing, or maybe replacing with 'also'.
this included "full payment to the bond owners", many of whom were parishioners asked by the Diocese to purchase these bonds.I feel that the underlined part could be removed.
Favero's refusal to sack the administratorsack has a lot of homonyms and isn't universally understood to mean 'terminated from employment'. Suggest changing: sack → dismiss
was influenced by that of Modeste Demers, who was both Gagnon's collateral ancestor and predecessor as bishop of the Diocese.This is from his consecration. The information after the comma is already given in the section Early life, which talks about the ancestral relation and that Demers was the first bishop. This should be given in one place or the other, not both (or, alternatively, could have the lineage in one place and that he was the first bishop in the other). Since there are no other people named Demers in the article, the second mention could be simply "Demers" (per MOS:SURNAME).
"Gagnon's aforementioned ancestor and predecessor as bishop of the Diocese". I'm not sure those who first read the "Early life" section will later be able to put two and two together that Gagnon was Demers' successor, and I don't want to mention Gagnon's ministry as bishop in "Early life". — Bloom6132 ( talk) 22:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
the Diocese won an appeal at the Washington Court of Appeals, successfully reversing a 2005 judgment against it claiming US$8.5 million in damages for breach of contract.I don't think that a judgement "claims" anything. The case brought forward makes the claim and the judgement is the $8.5 million in damages. Suggest: the Washington Court of Appeals reversed a 2005 judgement against the Diocese of US$8.5 million in damages for breach of contract.
Only when the situation became increasingly difficult in November of that same year did Favero again request a sabbatical, starting in the spring of 2007.It's not confusing, so not covered under the GA criteria, but it feels a little wordy to me. Consider: When the situation became increasingly difficult in November, Favero requested a sabbatical to have begun in spring 2007.
Motto "To obey is to serve in love"is only present in the infobox, so it's difficult to tell its source. As a quotation, the GA criteria require it to have an inline citation. It can be sourced to
ref name=archdiocese
, with citation either in the infobox or preferably somewhere in the body of the article. (Or, if it's not that important to an understanding of the subject, remove it.)The discord between Favero and Gagnon was later resolved when Favero "took responsibility for not honouring confidentiality and misrepresenting events".I wish there was another source to provide a little more context on this. Suggest: The discord between Favero and Gagnon was later resolved; the Times Colonist reported in 2013 that Favero had "[taken] responsibility for not honouring confidentiality and misrepresenting events".
a special mass, to be conducted by Bishop Gagnon and to include drummers and singers from the T'Souke Nation and the St. Rose of Lima choir.Here are citation details: cite news|title=New church for St. Rose of Lima congregation. |date= May 9, 2012|work=The Sooke Mirror |location= Sooke, British Columbia| |page=5 |publisher= Black Press |id= ProQuest 1011579210 |access-date=May 22, 2020 |url-access=subscription |quote=On May 5, 2012 Catholic Diocese of Victoria Bishop Richard Gagnon and T'Sou-ke Nation Chief Gordon Planes led celebrations marking the official opening of the new St. Rose of Lima Catholic church in Sooke.
Gagnon contended that Favero had requested to resign in late spring of 2006 – before the issue arose – "for personal reasons", with Gagnon asking him to remain.and
but that he "[did] not want a public battle with the bishop".The context makes these sound like quotations from Gagnon and/or Favero. However, rather than being direct quotes, the source is paraphrasing them, so the quotes are from the author of the source, Shannon Moneo. So I feel that they should either be paraphrased or framed so that it's clear they are attributed to Moneo, e.g. According to freelance journalist Shannon Moneo, Favero "[did] not want a public battle with the bishop".
Favero was reluctant to do so, and his decision to consult with the parish council incensed Gagnon, who reprimanded him for breaching confidentiality.The underlined part is according to Favero, and the article should state this as his opinion rather than objective fact. Suggest: and decided to consult with the parish council. Favero said that this incensed Gagnon, who reprimanded him for breaching confidentiality.
He had his second audience with Pope Francis that year on December 9The source doesn't specifically say that it was his second audience; he had at least two that year. The earlier audience on 27 March was part of a visit of about a week; could there have been another audience during that time? Probably not if it wasn't mentioned, but I would feel more comfortable if this was changed: his second audience → another audience.
in his past positions made him an ideal selection as Archbishop.the source said that he would be "a good choice", so I feel it should be toned down a bit from "ideal selection". Perhaps "made him a fitting selection for Archbishop" or "made him suitable for the position of Archbishop".
One image tagged with CC licence. Some reviewers might want more images, and a bio pic of the subject would be ideal if a free one could be obtained, and there are probably free images of some of the places he's worked. But I don't feel it's necessary to an understanding of the subject.
Although not part of the GA criteria, here are some other areas you might want to improve:
|residence=
parameter doesn't have to be used at all, Winnipeg is already given as his See, and former residences don't apply. (I think residence is usually used for a specific location, like The White House, rather than a city.) Similarly, |alma_mater=
should be only for the highest stage of the subject's education, if at all. Non-notable family members don't have to be listed. The motto "To obey is to serve in love" isn't in the article and is unsourced. Really, anything which isn't prominent in the article or a defining characteristic of the subject shouldn't be there.A lot of primary sources which is probably normal for a subject like this (for academics or clergy). These primary sources are used for positions, dates and colleagues, and I didn't spot anything controversial or non-neutral. I feel that it would benefit from a little bit of copy editing and context/cleanup around some of the quotations, and it should be good. I am putting the review on hold for seven days for edits to meet the GA criteria. Please feel free to discuss anything, and let me know when you're ready for me to have another look at it. – Reidgreg ( talk) 21:08, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
"Gagnon said he was shocked at the findings of the inquiry, after having met Vanier on multiple occasions and visiting L’Arche communities in Vancouver and France."— Bloom6132 ( talk) 02:38, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
Having been reverted by Bloom6132, I want to bring the matter to the talk page for discussion.
Firstly, the article uses the phrase " bishop of the Catholic Church". As the word bishop is a separate link, when I first clicked it, I assumed I would be directed to an article about bishops generally; however, I was linked to the article Bishop in the Catholic Church. In line with the principle of least astonishment, I changed it to use one link for the whole phrase (i.e., " bishop of the Catholic Church"). This is in accordance with MOS:LINKCLARITY which provides:
The article linked to should correspond as closely as possible to the term showing as the link, given the context: for example, When Mozart wrote his Requiem (See also § Piped links on how to achieve this) rather than When Mozart wrote his Requiem, or Previn conducted Mozart's Requiem rather than Previn conducted Mozart's Requiem—this makes it clear the link is to the article on Mozart's Requiem in particular, rather than that on requiems in general. The link target and the link label do not have to match exactly, but the link must be as intuitive as possible (see § Intuitiveness).
That being the case, I am wondering what Bloom6132's objection is. If " bishop of the Catholic Church" (linking to the general article about bishops) would be preferred for some reason, I would be amenable, but I do not see how the existing revision conforms to the MOS.
Secondly, the caption of the primary image in the infobox currently reads "Gagnon in 2002, when he was a parish priest in Vancouver." I removed the period to conform to MOS:CAPTION which provides: "Most captions are not complete sentences but merely sentence fragments which should not end with a period." I'm not clear as to why Bloom6132 wishes to retain the period.
Lastly, the infobox currently lists the subject's denomination as "Roman Catholic" and his church as "Roman Catholic Church". I suspect Bloom6132 is already familiar, but for those who aren't, in official usage, the term Roman Catholic Church refers to the entirety of the church in communion with the See of Rome. That is to say the term is inclusive of the Roman Catholic Church's 24 autonomous particular churches sui iuris (the Latin Church and the 23 Eastern Catholic churches).
Given that the denomination field already indicates the subject's Roman Catholicism, I included "Latin Church" in the church field. The inclusion of the relevant autonomous particular church sui iuris in that field is a common practice. A survey of the articles for the senior bishop in each of the 23 Eastern Catholic churches, for example, shows that they uniformly include the name of the autonomous particular church. [a] As before, I'm not sure what Bloom6132 takes issue with there.
Bloom6132, could you please clarify? Thanks, 142.161.113.242 ( talk) 03:22, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
"religions (e.g., Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism)"generally should not be linked, and the Catholic Church is a denomination of Christianity. I see no reason why the lead should not link the religious denomination that the subject belongs to (given that is the only part of the article prose that links this). Also, I don't see how "the inclusion of the relevant autonomous particular church sui iuris in that field is a common practice". I know of no other article of a bishop that is at featured or good article status that uses the terminology "Latin Church". If you do have an example of FAs or GAs that use such terminology, please cite them. I have no inclination of having this good article de-listed because some IP thinks their personal taste should overrule consensus. — Bloom6132 ( talk) 03:31, 25 June 2021 (UTC)
This article went through a [ GAN review] just over a year ago, which also checked that it was in compliance with MOS.That's not true. The good article criteria only require compliance with the MOS "for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation". WP:GAN explicitly states, "Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style or its subpages is not required for good articles."
MOS:OVERLINK only saysI'm not clear as to WP:OVERLINK's relevance here. No one is suggesting that there is overlinking nor that we can't link to Catholic Church. As you'll recall, I even suggested " bishop of the Catholic Church" as an alternative to my original proposal. Could you clarify what it is you mean? And regarding the existing text in the lead, how do you reconcile the use of " bishop of the Catholic Church" with MOS:LINKCLARITY?"religions (e.g., Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism)"generally should not be linked, and the Catholic Church is a denomination of Christianity.
I know of no other article of a bishop that is at featured or good article status that uses the terminology "Latin Church". If you do have an example of FAs or GAs that use such terminology, please cite them.I'm speaking to whether the name of the relevant autonomous particular church sui iuris is used in the church field rather than whether the term Latin Church is used. Do you view the rationale for not including the name of the autonomous particular church in that field of the infobox for Latin bishops as being distinct from the case of other Roman Catholic bishops? As to examples, while I should note that the scope of our enquiry should not be limited to FAs and GAs, I would point to Elias Zoghby and Gregorio Pietro Agagianian as examples of GAs that name the relevant autonomous particular church.
I have no inclination of having this good article de-listed because some IP thinks their personal taste should overrule consensus.So, a few things here: Firstly, what about what I wrote could possibly lead to the article losing good article status? Which of the six good article criteria do you think my concerns pertain to? Secondly, arguments of the class referred to on the page to which you linked – Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid on discussion pages § Personal taste – "make no use of policies, guidelines, or even logic." I've already pointed out multiple guidelines to which the article does not appear to conform and I certainly hope you're not suggesting that I am failing to employ any logic here. Thirdly, I'm not sure of what relevance my being unregistered is here. And finally, what leads you to believe that consensus is being "overruled"? To the contrary, this talk page is a forum by which consensus is generated. 142.161.113.242 ( talk) 06:02, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
Notes