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There have been discussions in the Shock of God chat room about forcing the agnostic label into the article. Be warned of possible meat-puppetry. Soxwon ( talk) 04:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
This note should have no bearing on edits to the page. This is after all a site that allows users to change content and try to get it to stick, by providing evidence... if the users of that Chat Room can provide evidence their position on Dawkins is right, then it should be reflected in the article. I have personally removed your insulting remarks and replaced them with something much more approprite, this is a not a site where it is OK to fling personal insults( Wikipedia:INSULTS). Colliric ( talk) 10:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I have been watching that site, and there is NO REAL evidence of "Meatpuppetry", if you want to view an example of what is being put on the site, you can see it at Shock's youtube channel under http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQI7aB1s0cM&feature=g-all&context=G24dc161FAAAAAAAAAAA. This is primarily criticism of the article, not MeatBagging(which to me is an insult, because Canvassing is clearly the uninsulting version of the word). It's only Meat-puppetry/Canvassing if there is really no evidence for their position, if it's not preaching to the converted(which it obviously is) and there isn't primary concern for the integrity(or truthfulness) of the article, which is NOT the case as many users have pointed out on this talk page. Colliric ( talk) 11:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I have just reverted this edit, which changed "Dawkins is an atheist" to "Dawkins is an agnostic". I'm not saying it's wrong, but I am saying it needs discussing before implementing. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 08:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I should have added that the editor who made the change did include a reference in which Dawkins apparently calls himself an agnostic: [1]. Discussion here should take account of that. My view is that a single comment by Dawkins does not trump the longstanding self-description as an atheist, especially when he goes on in the same source to place himself at 6.9 on a scale of 1 to 7, believer to absolute atheist. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 08:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Dawkins has made comments in his books (can't recall what or where exactly) about the logic of belief in God, and has said that if evidence were available he would [change his mind?] [believe in God?]. It's an honest statement consistent with his general position that progress results from questioning evidence. However, Dawkins has a set of beliefs regarding God that are indistinguishable from those of many atheists. For example, see Out Campaign. Johnuniq ( talk) 09:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
K: ...and you, I think, Richard, believe you have a disproof of God's existence.
D: No, I don't. I don't. You are wrong when you said that. I constructed in The God Delusion a 7-point scale of which 1 was "I know God exists," and 7 was "I know God doesn't exist," and I called myself a 6.
K: Why don't you call yourself an agnostic then?
D: I do! But I think it's a...
K: You're described as the world's most famous atheist.
D: Well, not by me!
- ..not by me.
K: Can I ask you to spell out your argument [...] your Boeing...
D: I'm a 6.9.
K: But you have your Boeing 747 argument to show it's entirely improbable...
D: I believe that when you talk about agnosticism it's very important to make a distinction between "I don't know whether X is true or not. Therefore it's 50/50 likely or unlikely," and that's the kind of agnostic which I'm definitely not. I think one can place estimates of probability on these things, and I think the probability of any supernatural creator existing is very, very low. Let's say I'm a 6.9.
I think all this "agnostic" thing is widely blown-up recentism. We all know that nothing is above described conversation is new, he has said the same thing many times in past, even in his book. If he accepts that "one can't disprove god" doesn't make him agnostic ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa82GQWmvDM). There are numerous talks and debate videos, where Dawkins refers to himself as Atheist. For being 6.9, Dawkins has refered to himself as agnostic atheist, where technical correctness is required. But for all practical purposes anyone 6+ is De facto atheist (Dawkins's video explaining it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_jD-ki6b_Q). Also as per Dawkins, that there are very very few people who are 7, so if we want to be technically correct, then practially every atheist is an agnostic atheist. So I think we should keep the current wordings of referring him as Atheist. Abhishikt ( talk) 02:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
There is no question at all that he is an atheist!. People need to read a proper dictionary AND to read The God Delusion. The Oxford English Dictionary defines an atheist two ways One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God. One who practically denies the existence of a God by disregard of moral obligation to Him; a godless man. There is no question that Dawkins meets this definition. At the begining of the second chapter of The God Delusion he describes the God of the Old Testament as "one of the most unpleasant characters in all FICTION." ( my emphasis) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilj ( talk • contribs) 00:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
To help reach a conclusion, I've initiated an RFC, below: Yunshui 雲 水 07:05, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
I just want it brought to the attention of the editors deciding here that several of the other language Wikipedia sites have significantly changed the article and left the changes currently in place. I wont say which because I know someone here will probably try and edit them if I do, but you can easily find out which ones have been changed by seaching for the articles in the various diffrent versions of the site. Some of these are very well referenced and cited. This makes me wonder why the english version is locked and a flame war is going on here? If the change has been put on the other language sites without much of a fuss, why can't it be put here without need for discussion? it is after all well referenced that it is in fact the Primary Source's own opinion of himself. Please would someone please tell me why it is ok on this occassion for us to ignore the Primary? Colliric ( talk) 23:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
No these articles are specific in stating it is "Self-identification", due to the editors in those languages feeling the need to comment on the controversy itself. They have provided sources and citations that were not provided by the original editors of the english version and are significatly diffrent. They didn't just change the word unlike this english one, they added several paragraphs explaining the controversy, why and how it came about, and accuratly described the postion as being his own idea. Fixing these articles would require the removal of several well cited and worded paragraphs. I agree with these changes. Colliric ( talk) 23:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Could you tell us which languages you mean please? I am a bit of a dabbling linguist and I have checked the articles in Welsh, German,French, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian and Latin I would not claim fluency in all of these but reading things is different and I cannot detect the changes which are being claimed. Threy all appear to be still calling him an atheist. Neilj ( talk) 00:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
You can add the Greek wikipedia to that list. I read it with difficulty as a student of classical Greek but it clearly calls him "Atheos". It does make me wonder if the bit about the other languages was a bit of POV pushing? I am very aware that each project has its own rules but it seems that they aren't affected by the daft British press. But don't listen to me as my great great ad infinitum etc grandfather didn't speak English so I clearly can't understand what is written here:-)! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilj ( talk • contribs) 09:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
On the Australian ABC TV program "Q & A" last night when he appeared with Cardinal George Pell, a question was raised about whether he was an atheist or an agnostic. He explained clearly that he lived as an atheist, although as a scientist he recognised that nothing is absolutely certain. He was implying that the two terms were not exclusive. He did however say that he moved between preferring the term "atheist" or "non-believer" or some other terms I forget, because he felt the term "atheist" raised antagonisms that other terms did not. It is clear however that we are right to call him an atheist, and I am sure some sources will discuss that part of the program. -- Bduke (Discussion) 00:05, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
This recent article, despite the Teleraph calling him one of the greatest living geniuses in other pieces, is highly critical, and has become something of a Christian rallying cry (e.g. it is the featured main page article at Conservapedia today). It's probably worth using this in the article. PS: It's weird to me that this article is obviously missing a criticism/controversy section, because Dawkins is highly controversial, and often publicly criticized (occasionally even by other atheists and agnostics like me). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 22:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have this quote mining episode in the article in a separate section or subsection? I'm referring to this content, which was added by Sanju87 and removed by Abhishikt, pointing to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24vWUeMnXBg. I think we could use a section header like John Lennox controversy (or something similar), put the entire content under it, and also have Dawkins' public rebuttal, sourced by the video and by some other newspaper article. I.m.o. there are some good reasons to have it on board: (1) it is properly sourced, (2) widely covered, (3) well known, (4) frequently brought up here, and (5) i.m.o. quite notable and interesting. - DVdm ( talk) 16:44, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I would agree with [User:DVdm|DVdm] I've seen the debate of dawkins with lennox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0UIbd0eLxw and I counted two instances where dawkins makes a statement similar to which he claimed was being mined.....From watching the debate, Dawkins seems to be saying what i think he was saying (despite his claims of quote mining)...any other comments on that?? I think it warrants a section Sanju87 ( talk) 18:58, 10 April 2012 (UTC)Sanju87
This entire incident and discussion is a classic example of how much cleverer Dawkins is than most of his opponents. It proves nothing about any possibility that he believes in any god. Those who don't like his views would defend their cause better if they just shut up and didn't try to use his words to prove their point of view. It doesn't work. HiLo48 ( talk) 21:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I think whether is aids him or his critics is irrelevant, facts need to be presented as it is leaving the reader to make a conclusion...btw, it wasnt Lennox who brought the statement into scrutiny, it was a review on the debates published in The Spectator which brought the issue into limelight....just saying Sanju87 ( talk) 22:50, 10 April 2012 (UTC)Sanju87
We have the entire debate here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0UIbd0eLxw, I count two instances in which he makes the statements...and I don't think he is being misquoted or is being taken out of context(I could be mistaken), we have the spectator's review of the debate stating that such a statement was made (it wasnt Lennox who said that ) http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/2543431/is-richard-dawkins-still-evolving.thtml, then we have Dawkins' statement on quote mining...Granted that melanie phillips might have her reasons bringing that statement into limelight and dawkins might have his reasons for calling it quote mining (not taking sides here), I think in that context Dawkins is as 'reliable' as Melanie Phillips. Instead of we ourselves making a value judgement on who can be termed as reliable source..wouldnt it be better if properly sourced and worded facts were produced and let the reader come to his own conclusion? Sanju87 ( talk) 04:45, 11 April 2012 (UTC)Sanju87
Well which god? I mean we could take Einstein's god which is not really a personal god at all, but which is a sort of poetic metaphor for the mystery, that which we don't understand about the universe. We could take a deistic god, a sort of god of the physicist, a god of somebody like Paul Davies, who devised the laws of physics, god the mathematician, god who put together the cosmos in the first place and then sat back and watched everything happen. And that would be, the deist god would be one that I think that would be One could make a reasonably respectable case for that, not a case that I would accept, but I think it is a serious discussion that we could have.The third kind of god is one of which there are thousands and thousands of varieties: Zeus and Thor and Apollo and...
You know what would be great, is if we could put this ridiculous unduly weighted 'criticism' away. This discussion is 2 freaking months old, and is going absolutely nowhere. Dbrodbeck ( talk) 22:51, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I will add, on the descriptive section, the fact Dawkins is indeed an Atheist (i will provide references). He vividly stated his position as an Atheist in his books, in tv and university appearences, and is an important figure in modern Atheism, which has contributed a lot with his scientific articles and biological explanations, backed with proof, to explain the evolutionary stages of animals and humans alike.
I see no need to hide that from the descriptive section, since this is probably the most Atheist man there is. After reading a few of the suggestions on this talk page, i have come to the conclusion that many people still seem skeptical to his views on religion and call him an Agnostic for the simple fact he can't disprove the existance of a God. It is utterly ridiculous, since i have heard the man himself say he is not Agnostic, but Atheist.
Let us all put our beliefs (or the lack of them) aside and be objective. It is the foundation on which Wikipedia was created. User:Lacobrigo 23:06, 24th of April 2012 —Preceding undated comment added 22:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC).
Perhaps it is worth having a summary of the article Spectrum_of_theistic_probability where it can be clarified further that Richard Dawkins rates himself as a 6.9? IRWolfie- ( talk) 20:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Please refer to - paragraph 4: sentence 1: in the section titled "Evolutionary biology". Could anyone refer me to any recent scientific paper in which these specific criticisms are still levelled against Dawkins. The criticisms alluded to in this sentence do not warrant mention in the present tense ie "Critics of Dawkins' suggest …" should read "Critics of Dawkins' suggested …" (if indeed anyone feels it necessary to refer in this section to obsolete historic debates) Prunesqualor billets_doux 00:48, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I added and sourced under the "criticism of creation" section "Dawkins was asked by a creationist "Can you give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome?" Although he failed to address the question directly at the time he later gave a response." (i included link for the question which is stated verbatim and with subtitles in the video and linked his response he gave on a later date)
Is this Wikipedia grade acceptable?
Thank you
Jinx — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jinx69 ( talk • contribs) 07:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Apparently some people don't want this mentioned in his biography on Wikipedia. I believe it's a notable incident in his life, Dawkins made such a fact public himself. He might downplay it or tell it as if it were a funny anecdote. But any biographical article that discusses important details of his life and omits such an important incident is, I believe arbitrarily selective. The first two reverts by Johnuniq and Old Moonraker cited WP:Undue, but a closer look at WP:Undue reveals that it is about viewpoints. This is not a viewpoint but more strictly categorized as a historical occurrence attested to by Dawkins himself, and published on his own website. Thus Johnuniq and Old Moonraker are, in my opinion wrong about seeing WP:Undue as a basis for rejecting the inclusion of this incident. Now if either one of the two can explain exactly how they construe WP:Undue as a basis for rejecting this specific incident, I'd like to hear it. BabyJonas ( talk) 22:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Why do we say "Clinton Richard Dawkins, known as Richard Dawkins..." instead of simply going with "Clinton Richard Dawkins is..."? Every bio article that I can remember seeing about someone who goes/went by his middle name uses this format. See Roy Welensky for the first relevant FA that I could find (I went through several dozen FA biographies before finding one about someone who didn't use his first name), or Woodrow Wilson for a non-FA whose name most of us likely know. Nyttend ( talk) 21:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
The introduction mentions that Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist. Yet there appears to be nothing in the article itself giving credentials to support this assertion. Unless proper credentials are cited he should not be given this distinction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SDLarsen ( talk • contribs) 14:53, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
"The notion that genes reach beyond the bounds of the organism is often referred to as the 'extended phenotype', a term coined by Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Oxford, in his 1982 book of the same name..."
Others, waddya think? - DVdm ( talk) 19:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)Jones, Dan (2005). "Evolutionary theory: Personal effects". Nature. 438. Nature Publishing Group: 14–16. doi: 10.1038/438014a. Retrieved 6-Jul-2012.
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It is patently clear Dawkins is an atheist. This is expressly stated throughout the article with reliable references. Why is there such apprehension with adding this attribute to the infobox? What is the difference? We should be allowed to. Moreover, the FA article on Nikita Khrushchev (I understand this person is no longer alive, but I believe the same principle, at least in part, may still but applicable in this article) allows for the use of None (Atheist) in the religion section of the infobox. Ziggypowe ( talk) 02:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
A new article has been created Criticism of Richard Dawkins which looks an awful lot like a POV fork. I reverted the inclusion of a new criticism section here with a link to that new page. I thought others might want to take a look at it, and I figured it would be more likely to get eyes on it if mentioned here. Thanks. Dbrodbeck ( talk) 11:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
If I add a section using reliable source, I have a right to keep it, unless YOU SHOW ME CONSENSUS FOR DELETING IT, not the other way around.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 13:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
If the aim is to document critical comments about Dawkins' work, then the right way to achieve that is to insert well-written and well-sourced material into this page, in the appropriate sections. If the aim is to provide a hook on which people are invited to hang a ragbag of personal attacks and links to miscellaneous anti-Dawkins bloggery, then no doubt a page at Criticism of Richard Dawkins is a good idea. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 13:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
God and the new atheism, p. 9(rough quotation): Dawkins does not differ between the general definition of faith and extremist faith. In his opinion, the moderate faith eventually is an "open invitation" to religious extremism and therefore should not be tolerated. This, the author argues is against the very principle of tolerance which both moderate religious people and traditional atheists agree upon. -- Kazemita1 ( talk) 16:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Kazemital hasn't bothered to tell anyone here that he's started a discussion at WP:AN#Criticism of Richard Dawkins. < Dougweller ( talk • contribs) 15:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
The thread would not have opened if you were present in the above discussion. It was only me and a user who called himself atheist in his user page. It was clear my discussion with him needed an arbitration.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 16:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
All right pal. No hard feelings. Let's just fix the problem.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 16:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
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PLEASE BE PATIENT!!!
Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life is a book by Alister McGrath , a molecular biophysicist and theologian who is currently Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University . The book, published in 2004, aims to refute claims about religion made by another well-known professor at Oxford, Richard Dawkins . McGrath’s book does not seek to demonstrate how Dawkins’ claims differ from Christianity , rather, it argues that Dawkins’ arguments fall far short of the logical and evidence-based reasoning that Dawkins himself espouses. McGrath begins with an overview of evolutionary biology and Darwinist theory. He then presents Dawkins’ view that the current state of scientific knowledge should lead a rational person to conclude that there is no God. McGrath argues that Dawkins fails to declare or defend several crucial assumptions or premises. McGrath also defends other conclusions in the book, including: the scientific method cannot conclusively prove that God does or does not exist; the theory of evolution does not necessarily entail any particular atheistic, agnostic , or Christian understanding of the world; Dawkins’ refutation of William Paley’s watchmaker analogy does not equate to a refutation of God’s existence; Dawkins’ proposal that memes explain the evolutionary development of human culture is more illogical and unscientific than a clearly articulated defence of Christianity; Dawkins is ignorant of Christian theology and mischaracterizes religious people generally. McGrath argues that Dawkins’ rejection of faith is a straw man argument. According to McGrath, Dawkins’ definition that faith “means blind trust, in the absence of evidence” is not a Christian position. In contrast, argues McGrath, accepting Dawkins’ definition would require blind trust since he offers no evidence to support it. Rather, it is based upon what McGrath calls “an unstated and largely unexamined cluster of hidden non-scientific values and beliefs” (p. 92). McGrath then argues that Dawkins frequently violates the very tenets of evidence-based reasoning that Dawkins himself claims to uphold and use to dismiss all religious belief. Also on page 92, McGrath states "... Darwinism neither proves nor disproves the existence of God (unless, of course God is defined by his critics in precisely such a way...)." Reception In Science Magazine the skeptic Michael Shermer , reviewing this book, says "[McGrath's] defense of religious faith is a passionate and honorable one and he demonstrates that some of Dawkins's characterizations of religion are indeed overly simplistic or selective, but he never delivers an answer to the God question. The closest thing to an argument for God's existence I could find in the book is this: "Why should God require an explanation at all? He might just be an 'ultimate,'...one of those things we have to accept as given and is thus amenable to description, rather than explanation." That may be, but like all other arguments made in favor of God's existence, this only works as a reason to believe if you already believe. If you do not already believe, science cannot help you." Darwin's Angels: Dawkin says: "I am optimistic that the physiscists of our species will complete Einstein's dream and discover the final theory of everything before superior creatures evolved on another world, make contact and tell us the answer... According to the author, cornwell, even Stephen Hawking is not in favor of the theory of everything anymore: Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. ” —Gödel and the end of physics < http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/strings02/dirac/hawking/>, July 20, 2002 but to the understandability of the behavior of all physical systems, as when Hawking mentions arranging blocks into look further here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything The Dawkins Delusion:(the author used to be atheist) p. 11: "Though an atheist, Gould was absolutely clear that the natural sciences-including evolutionary theory-were consistent with both atheism and conventional religious belief. Unless half his sceintific colleagues were total fools - a presumption that Gould rightlydismissed as nonsense, whicever half it is applied to -there could be no other responsible way of making sense of the varied responses to reality on the part of the intelligent, informed people that he know." Original statement by Stephen Jay Gould: "Impeaching a Self-Appointed Judge," Scientific American 267,no. 1(1992) http://www.stephenjaygould.org/reviews/gould_darwin-on-trial.html science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God's possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can't comment on it as scientists. If some of our crowd have made untoward statements claiming that Darwinism disproves God, then I will find Mrs. McInerney and have their knuckles rapped for it (as long as she can equally treat those members of our crowd who have argued that Darwinism must be God's method of action). Science can work only with naturalistic explanations; it can neither affirm nor deny other types of actors (like God) in other spheres (the moral realm, for example). The God delusion trumpets the fact that its author was recently voted onr of the world's three leading intellectuals. This survey took place among readers og the prospect magazine in nov 2005 In the last photo of this book, there is a quote from some honorable skeptic doctor. Dawkins seems to think he is competent. Prospect Magezene: http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/dawkinsthedogmatist/ by Andrew Brown(has a wiki page in wiki eng) "Incurious and rambling, Richard Dawkins’ diatribe against religion doesn’t come close to explaining how faith has survived the assault of Darwinism" Michael Ruse http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/nov/02/atheism-dawkins-ruse "The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist" "unlike the new atheists, I take scholarship seriously. I have written that The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist and I meant it. Trying to understand how God could need no cause, Christians claim that God exists necessarily. I have taken the effort to try to understand what that means. Dawkins and company are ignorant of such claims and positively contemptuous of those who even try to understand them, let alone believe them. Thus, like a first-year undergraduate, he can happily go around asking loudly, "What caused God?" as though he had made some momentous philosophical discovery." Terry Eaglton(one of Britain's most influential living literary critics), London Review of books, Vol. 28 No. 20 · 19 October 2006 pages 32-34: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/terry-eagleton/lunging-flailing-mispunching "Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. " "This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. " Our Cosmic Habitat By Martin J. Rees "The preeminent mystery is why anything exists at all. What breaths life into the equatoins of physics, and actualized them in a real cosmos? Such questions lie beyond science, however; they are the province of philosophers and theologians." p. xi The limits of science, Peter Madawar(noble prizewinner) p. 66: "That there is indeed a limit upon science is made very likely by existence of questions that science cannot answer, and that no conceivable advance of science would empower it to answer... I have in mind such questions as: How did everything begin? What are we all here for? What is the point of living?" Is God a Delusion, p. 33: In authors view Dawkins is ignoring the possiblity that when religion becomes a tool of division or a venue in which critical reflection is shut down, religion has lost its way. p.37: Dawkins commits the crude logical blunder of treating the conclusion of Aquinas' argument as if it were an assumption The Devil's Delusion, p.1: Biologist Keneth Miller affirmed that he saw no conflict whatsoever between his own catholic faith and Darwin's theory of evolution. Francis Collins who directed the Human Genome Project has made a very similar case for his religious beliefs. p.7: Richard Dawkins is described to be very "responsive to criticism" p.11: quoting Dawkins affirmation that Religion has the power to console, the author suggests pondering on the root of the fact of why religion has this power over the course of human history. p.14: Narrating a verse from Quran suggesting believers that there is a lesson to be learned in the turning over the night and the day, the author find a direct relationship between devoting to religion to scientific pursuit. p. 14: "In Islam, as in no other religion," the historian David King has remarked, "the performance of various aspects of religious ritual has been assisted by scientific procedure." p.19: Twentieth century was not an age of faith and it was awful. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot will never to be counted among the religious leaders of mankind. p. 26: The author quotes Dawkins saying that the bad deeds of Nazis or Communists was not because of their atheism and it was rather their own desire to kill great many people. The author then concludes this came from the fact that those bad people did not believe that God was watching them. p.27: According to historian Richard Weikart, in "From Darwin to Hitler" Hitler chose his policy of killing the jews on the basis of evolutionary ethics in which based on Darwin's theory it was concluded that competition between species was reflected in human affairs by competition between races. p. 34: He disagrees with Dawkins and says if people are unpoliced by God they will not remain good, just as when they are unpoliced by the police. Alongside the philosophy of criminal law, he argues, moral enforcement is needed when law enforcement ends. p. 68 Berlinski though not necessarily approving Aquinas' conclusion, finds Dawkins's objection to Aquinas' argument inept. Aquinas, he states, did not make such an assumption that "God is immune to regress" as suggested by Dawkins. p. 145: Berlinski accuses Dawkins of "foolishily mingling" improbability and existence. He argues that parity of reasoning one could conclude that the existence of universe is unlikely in virtue of its improbability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kazemita1 ( talk • contribs) 13:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC) PLEASE BE PATIENT!!! -- Kazemita1 ( talk) 16:38, 25 July 2012 (UTC) |
@The Hand That Feeds You: Well, if you are bothered with terms like "The author thinks" or "The author believes", then what do you say about this statement of Dawkins?
"I think that Gould's separate compartments was a purely political ploy to win middle-of-the-road religious people to the science camp. But it's a very empty idea. There are plenty of places where religion does not keep off the scientific turf. Any belief in miracles is flat contradictory not just to the facts of science but to the spirit of science" -- Kazemita1 ( talk) 21:47, 25 July 2012 (UTC) If Dawkins can use name-calling and it is allowed in his article, then so can his criticizers.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 23:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
My mistake. It is shotgunning Kazemita1 ( talk) 23:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
{User:Hadjishafiee] What is the big deal with having criticism in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadjishafiee ( talk • contribs) 03:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree the "raw notes" need some work, but it is doable. Right now, there are not much criticism included in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nasiraei ( talk • contribs) 06:56, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with those folks who find the criticism section unnecessary19:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Babajoon ( talk • contribs) — Babajoon ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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There have been discussions in the Shock of God chat room about forcing the agnostic label into the article. Be warned of possible meat-puppetry. Soxwon ( talk) 04:16, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
This note should have no bearing on edits to the page. This is after all a site that allows users to change content and try to get it to stick, by providing evidence... if the users of that Chat Room can provide evidence their position on Dawkins is right, then it should be reflected in the article. I have personally removed your insulting remarks and replaced them with something much more approprite, this is a not a site where it is OK to fling personal insults( Wikipedia:INSULTS). Colliric ( talk) 10:47, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I have been watching that site, and there is NO REAL evidence of "Meatpuppetry", if you want to view an example of what is being put on the site, you can see it at Shock's youtube channel under http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQI7aB1s0cM&feature=g-all&context=G24dc161FAAAAAAAAAAA. This is primarily criticism of the article, not MeatBagging(which to me is an insult, because Canvassing is clearly the uninsulting version of the word). It's only Meat-puppetry/Canvassing if there is really no evidence for their position, if it's not preaching to the converted(which it obviously is) and there isn't primary concern for the integrity(or truthfulness) of the article, which is NOT the case as many users have pointed out on this talk page. Colliric ( talk) 11:05, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
I have just reverted this edit, which changed "Dawkins is an atheist" to "Dawkins is an agnostic". I'm not saying it's wrong, but I am saying it needs discussing before implementing. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 08:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
I should have added that the editor who made the change did include a reference in which Dawkins apparently calls himself an agnostic: [1]. Discussion here should take account of that. My view is that a single comment by Dawkins does not trump the longstanding self-description as an atheist, especially when he goes on in the same source to place himself at 6.9 on a scale of 1 to 7, believer to absolute atheist. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 08:30, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
Dawkins has made comments in his books (can't recall what or where exactly) about the logic of belief in God, and has said that if evidence were available he would [change his mind?] [believe in God?]. It's an honest statement consistent with his general position that progress results from questioning evidence. However, Dawkins has a set of beliefs regarding God that are indistinguishable from those of many atheists. For example, see Out Campaign. Johnuniq ( talk) 09:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
K: ...and you, I think, Richard, believe you have a disproof of God's existence.
D: No, I don't. I don't. You are wrong when you said that. I constructed in The God Delusion a 7-point scale of which 1 was "I know God exists," and 7 was "I know God doesn't exist," and I called myself a 6.
K: Why don't you call yourself an agnostic then?
D: I do! But I think it's a...
K: You're described as the world's most famous atheist.
D: Well, not by me!
- ..not by me.
K: Can I ask you to spell out your argument [...] your Boeing...
D: I'm a 6.9.
K: But you have your Boeing 747 argument to show it's entirely improbable...
D: I believe that when you talk about agnosticism it's very important to make a distinction between "I don't know whether X is true or not. Therefore it's 50/50 likely or unlikely," and that's the kind of agnostic which I'm definitely not. I think one can place estimates of probability on these things, and I think the probability of any supernatural creator existing is very, very low. Let's say I'm a 6.9.
I think all this "agnostic" thing is widely blown-up recentism. We all know that nothing is above described conversation is new, he has said the same thing many times in past, even in his book. If he accepts that "one can't disprove god" doesn't make him agnostic ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa82GQWmvDM). There are numerous talks and debate videos, where Dawkins refers to himself as Atheist. For being 6.9, Dawkins has refered to himself as agnostic atheist, where technical correctness is required. But for all practical purposes anyone 6+ is De facto atheist (Dawkins's video explaining it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_jD-ki6b_Q). Also as per Dawkins, that there are very very few people who are 7, so if we want to be technically correct, then practially every atheist is an agnostic atheist. So I think we should keep the current wordings of referring him as Atheist. Abhishikt ( talk) 02:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
There is no question at all that he is an atheist!. People need to read a proper dictionary AND to read The God Delusion. The Oxford English Dictionary defines an atheist two ways One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God. One who practically denies the existence of a God by disregard of moral obligation to Him; a godless man. There is no question that Dawkins meets this definition. At the begining of the second chapter of The God Delusion he describes the God of the Old Testament as "one of the most unpleasant characters in all FICTION." ( my emphasis) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilj ( talk • contribs) 00:59, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
To help reach a conclusion, I've initiated an RFC, below: Yunshui 雲 水 07:05, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
I just want it brought to the attention of the editors deciding here that several of the other language Wikipedia sites have significantly changed the article and left the changes currently in place. I wont say which because I know someone here will probably try and edit them if I do, but you can easily find out which ones have been changed by seaching for the articles in the various diffrent versions of the site. Some of these are very well referenced and cited. This makes me wonder why the english version is locked and a flame war is going on here? If the change has been put on the other language sites without much of a fuss, why can't it be put here without need for discussion? it is after all well referenced that it is in fact the Primary Source's own opinion of himself. Please would someone please tell me why it is ok on this occassion for us to ignore the Primary? Colliric ( talk) 23:37, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
No these articles are specific in stating it is "Self-identification", due to the editors in those languages feeling the need to comment on the controversy itself. They have provided sources and citations that were not provided by the original editors of the english version and are significatly diffrent. They didn't just change the word unlike this english one, they added several paragraphs explaining the controversy, why and how it came about, and accuratly described the postion as being his own idea. Fixing these articles would require the removal of several well cited and worded paragraphs. I agree with these changes. Colliric ( talk) 23:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Could you tell us which languages you mean please? I am a bit of a dabbling linguist and I have checked the articles in Welsh, German,French, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian and Latin I would not claim fluency in all of these but reading things is different and I cannot detect the changes which are being claimed. Threy all appear to be still calling him an atheist. Neilj ( talk) 00:52, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
You can add the Greek wikipedia to that list. I read it with difficulty as a student of classical Greek but it clearly calls him "Atheos". It does make me wonder if the bit about the other languages was a bit of POV pushing? I am very aware that each project has its own rules but it seems that they aren't affected by the daft British press. But don't listen to me as my great great ad infinitum etc grandfather didn't speak English so I clearly can't understand what is written here:-)! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neilj ( talk • contribs) 09:45, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
On the Australian ABC TV program "Q & A" last night when he appeared with Cardinal George Pell, a question was raised about whether he was an atheist or an agnostic. He explained clearly that he lived as an atheist, although as a scientist he recognised that nothing is absolutely certain. He was implying that the two terms were not exclusive. He did however say that he moved between preferring the term "atheist" or "non-believer" or some other terms I forget, because he felt the term "atheist" raised antagonisms that other terms did not. It is clear however that we are right to call him an atheist, and I am sure some sources will discuss that part of the program. -- Bduke (Discussion) 00:05, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
This recent article, despite the Teleraph calling him one of the greatest living geniuses in other pieces, is highly critical, and has become something of a Christian rallying cry (e.g. it is the featured main page article at Conservapedia today). It's probably worth using this in the article. PS: It's weird to me that this article is obviously missing a criticism/controversy section, because Dawkins is highly controversial, and often publicly criticized (occasionally even by other atheists and agnostics like me). — SMcCandlish Talk⇒〈°⌊°〉 Contribs. 22:53, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be a good idea to have this quote mining episode in the article in a separate section or subsection? I'm referring to this content, which was added by Sanju87 and removed by Abhishikt, pointing to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24vWUeMnXBg. I think we could use a section header like John Lennox controversy (or something similar), put the entire content under it, and also have Dawkins' public rebuttal, sourced by the video and by some other newspaper article. I.m.o. there are some good reasons to have it on board: (1) it is properly sourced, (2) widely covered, (3) well known, (4) frequently brought up here, and (5) i.m.o. quite notable and interesting. - DVdm ( talk) 16:44, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I would agree with [User:DVdm|DVdm] I've seen the debate of dawkins with lennox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0UIbd0eLxw and I counted two instances where dawkins makes a statement similar to which he claimed was being mined.....From watching the debate, Dawkins seems to be saying what i think he was saying (despite his claims of quote mining)...any other comments on that?? I think it warrants a section Sanju87 ( talk) 18:58, 10 April 2012 (UTC)Sanju87
This entire incident and discussion is a classic example of how much cleverer Dawkins is than most of his opponents. It proves nothing about any possibility that he believes in any god. Those who don't like his views would defend their cause better if they just shut up and didn't try to use his words to prove their point of view. It doesn't work. HiLo48 ( talk) 21:19, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
I think whether is aids him or his critics is irrelevant, facts need to be presented as it is leaving the reader to make a conclusion...btw, it wasnt Lennox who brought the statement into scrutiny, it was a review on the debates published in The Spectator which brought the issue into limelight....just saying Sanju87 ( talk) 22:50, 10 April 2012 (UTC)Sanju87
We have the entire debate here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0UIbd0eLxw, I count two instances in which he makes the statements...and I don't think he is being misquoted or is being taken out of context(I could be mistaken), we have the spectator's review of the debate stating that such a statement was made (it wasnt Lennox who said that ) http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/2543431/is-richard-dawkins-still-evolving.thtml, then we have Dawkins' statement on quote mining...Granted that melanie phillips might have her reasons bringing that statement into limelight and dawkins might have his reasons for calling it quote mining (not taking sides here), I think in that context Dawkins is as 'reliable' as Melanie Phillips. Instead of we ourselves making a value judgement on who can be termed as reliable source..wouldnt it be better if properly sourced and worded facts were produced and let the reader come to his own conclusion? Sanju87 ( talk) 04:45, 11 April 2012 (UTC)Sanju87
Well which god? I mean we could take Einstein's god which is not really a personal god at all, but which is a sort of poetic metaphor for the mystery, that which we don't understand about the universe. We could take a deistic god, a sort of god of the physicist, a god of somebody like Paul Davies, who devised the laws of physics, god the mathematician, god who put together the cosmos in the first place and then sat back and watched everything happen. And that would be, the deist god would be one that I think that would be One could make a reasonably respectable case for that, not a case that I would accept, but I think it is a serious discussion that we could have.The third kind of god is one of which there are thousands and thousands of varieties: Zeus and Thor and Apollo and...
You know what would be great, is if we could put this ridiculous unduly weighted 'criticism' away. This discussion is 2 freaking months old, and is going absolutely nowhere. Dbrodbeck ( talk) 22:51, 11 April 2012 (UTC)
I will add, on the descriptive section, the fact Dawkins is indeed an Atheist (i will provide references). He vividly stated his position as an Atheist in his books, in tv and university appearences, and is an important figure in modern Atheism, which has contributed a lot with his scientific articles and biological explanations, backed with proof, to explain the evolutionary stages of animals and humans alike.
I see no need to hide that from the descriptive section, since this is probably the most Atheist man there is. After reading a few of the suggestions on this talk page, i have come to the conclusion that many people still seem skeptical to his views on religion and call him an Agnostic for the simple fact he can't disprove the existance of a God. It is utterly ridiculous, since i have heard the man himself say he is not Agnostic, but Atheist.
Let us all put our beliefs (or the lack of them) aside and be objective. It is the foundation on which Wikipedia was created. User:Lacobrigo 23:06, 24th of April 2012 —Preceding undated comment added 22:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC).
Perhaps it is worth having a summary of the article Spectrum_of_theistic_probability where it can be clarified further that Richard Dawkins rates himself as a 6.9? IRWolfie- ( talk) 20:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Please refer to - paragraph 4: sentence 1: in the section titled "Evolutionary biology". Could anyone refer me to any recent scientific paper in which these specific criticisms are still levelled against Dawkins. The criticisms alluded to in this sentence do not warrant mention in the present tense ie "Critics of Dawkins' suggest …" should read "Critics of Dawkins' suggested …" (if indeed anyone feels it necessary to refer in this section to obsolete historic debates) Prunesqualor billets_doux 00:48, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi. I added and sourced under the "criticism of creation" section "Dawkins was asked by a creationist "Can you give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome?" Although he failed to address the question directly at the time he later gave a response." (i included link for the question which is stated verbatim and with subtitles in the video and linked his response he gave on a later date)
Is this Wikipedia grade acceptable?
Thank you
Jinx — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jinx69 ( talk • contribs) 07:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Apparently some people don't want this mentioned in his biography on Wikipedia. I believe it's a notable incident in his life, Dawkins made such a fact public himself. He might downplay it or tell it as if it were a funny anecdote. But any biographical article that discusses important details of his life and omits such an important incident is, I believe arbitrarily selective. The first two reverts by Johnuniq and Old Moonraker cited WP:Undue, but a closer look at WP:Undue reveals that it is about viewpoints. This is not a viewpoint but more strictly categorized as a historical occurrence attested to by Dawkins himself, and published on his own website. Thus Johnuniq and Old Moonraker are, in my opinion wrong about seeing WP:Undue as a basis for rejecting the inclusion of this incident. Now if either one of the two can explain exactly how they construe WP:Undue as a basis for rejecting this specific incident, I'd like to hear it. BabyJonas ( talk) 22:01, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Why do we say "Clinton Richard Dawkins, known as Richard Dawkins..." instead of simply going with "Clinton Richard Dawkins is..."? Every bio article that I can remember seeing about someone who goes/went by his middle name uses this format. See Roy Welensky for the first relevant FA that I could find (I went through several dozen FA biographies before finding one about someone who didn't use his first name), or Woodrow Wilson for a non-FA whose name most of us likely know. Nyttend ( talk) 21:52, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
The introduction mentions that Dawkins is an evolutionary biologist. Yet there appears to be nothing in the article itself giving credentials to support this assertion. Unless proper credentials are cited he should not be given this distinction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SDLarsen ( talk • contribs) 14:53, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
"The notion that genes reach beyond the bounds of the organism is often referred to as the 'extended phenotype', a term coined by Richard Dawkins, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Oxford, in his 1982 book of the same name..."
Others, waddya think? - DVdm ( talk) 19:49, 6 June 2012 (UTC)Jones, Dan (2005). "Evolutionary theory: Personal effects". Nature. 438. Nature Publishing Group: 14–16. doi: 10.1038/438014a. Retrieved 6-Jul-2012.
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It is patently clear Dawkins is an atheist. This is expressly stated throughout the article with reliable references. Why is there such apprehension with adding this attribute to the infobox? What is the difference? We should be allowed to. Moreover, the FA article on Nikita Khrushchev (I understand this person is no longer alive, but I believe the same principle, at least in part, may still but applicable in this article) allows for the use of None (Atheist) in the religion section of the infobox. Ziggypowe ( talk) 02:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
A new article has been created Criticism of Richard Dawkins which looks an awful lot like a POV fork. I reverted the inclusion of a new criticism section here with a link to that new page. I thought others might want to take a look at it, and I figured it would be more likely to get eyes on it if mentioned here. Thanks. Dbrodbeck ( talk) 11:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
If I add a section using reliable source, I have a right to keep it, unless YOU SHOW ME CONSENSUS FOR DELETING IT, not the other way around.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 13:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
If the aim is to document critical comments about Dawkins' work, then the right way to achieve that is to insert well-written and well-sourced material into this page, in the appropriate sections. If the aim is to provide a hook on which people are invited to hang a ragbag of personal attacks and links to miscellaneous anti-Dawkins bloggery, then no doubt a page at Criticism of Richard Dawkins is a good idea. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 13:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
God and the new atheism, p. 9(rough quotation): Dawkins does not differ between the general definition of faith and extremist faith. In his opinion, the moderate faith eventually is an "open invitation" to religious extremism and therefore should not be tolerated. This, the author argues is against the very principle of tolerance which both moderate religious people and traditional atheists agree upon. -- Kazemita1 ( talk) 16:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Kazemital hasn't bothered to tell anyone here that he's started a discussion at WP:AN#Criticism of Richard Dawkins. < Dougweller ( talk • contribs) 15:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
The thread would not have opened if you were present in the above discussion. It was only me and a user who called himself atheist in his user page. It was clear my discussion with him needed an arbitration.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 16:24, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
All right pal. No hard feelings. Let's just fix the problem.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 16:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
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PLEASE BE PATIENT!!!
Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life is a book by Alister McGrath , a molecular biophysicist and theologian who is currently Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University . The book, published in 2004, aims to refute claims about religion made by another well-known professor at Oxford, Richard Dawkins . McGrath’s book does not seek to demonstrate how Dawkins’ claims differ from Christianity , rather, it argues that Dawkins’ arguments fall far short of the logical and evidence-based reasoning that Dawkins himself espouses. McGrath begins with an overview of evolutionary biology and Darwinist theory. He then presents Dawkins’ view that the current state of scientific knowledge should lead a rational person to conclude that there is no God. McGrath argues that Dawkins fails to declare or defend several crucial assumptions or premises. McGrath also defends other conclusions in the book, including: the scientific method cannot conclusively prove that God does or does not exist; the theory of evolution does not necessarily entail any particular atheistic, agnostic , or Christian understanding of the world; Dawkins’ refutation of William Paley’s watchmaker analogy does not equate to a refutation of God’s existence; Dawkins’ proposal that memes explain the evolutionary development of human culture is more illogical and unscientific than a clearly articulated defence of Christianity; Dawkins is ignorant of Christian theology and mischaracterizes religious people generally. McGrath argues that Dawkins’ rejection of faith is a straw man argument. According to McGrath, Dawkins’ definition that faith “means blind trust, in the absence of evidence” is not a Christian position. In contrast, argues McGrath, accepting Dawkins’ definition would require blind trust since he offers no evidence to support it. Rather, it is based upon what McGrath calls “an unstated and largely unexamined cluster of hidden non-scientific values and beliefs” (p. 92). McGrath then argues that Dawkins frequently violates the very tenets of evidence-based reasoning that Dawkins himself claims to uphold and use to dismiss all religious belief. Also on page 92, McGrath states "... Darwinism neither proves nor disproves the existence of God (unless, of course God is defined by his critics in precisely such a way...)." Reception In Science Magazine the skeptic Michael Shermer , reviewing this book, says "[McGrath's] defense of religious faith is a passionate and honorable one and he demonstrates that some of Dawkins's characterizations of religion are indeed overly simplistic or selective, but he never delivers an answer to the God question. The closest thing to an argument for God's existence I could find in the book is this: "Why should God require an explanation at all? He might just be an 'ultimate,'...one of those things we have to accept as given and is thus amenable to description, rather than explanation." That may be, but like all other arguments made in favor of God's existence, this only works as a reason to believe if you already believe. If you do not already believe, science cannot help you." Darwin's Angels: Dawkin says: "I am optimistic that the physiscists of our species will complete Einstein's dream and discover the final theory of everything before superior creatures evolved on another world, make contact and tell us the answer... According to the author, cornwell, even Stephen Hawking is not in favor of the theory of everything anymore: Some people will be very disappointed if there is not an ultimate theory, that can be formulated as a finite number of principles. I used to belong to that camp, but I have changed my mind. ” —Gödel and the end of physics < http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/strings02/dirac/hawking/>, July 20, 2002 but to the understandability of the behavior of all physical systems, as when Hawking mentions arranging blocks into look further here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_everything The Dawkins Delusion:(the author used to be atheist) p. 11: "Though an atheist, Gould was absolutely clear that the natural sciences-including evolutionary theory-were consistent with both atheism and conventional religious belief. Unless half his sceintific colleagues were total fools - a presumption that Gould rightlydismissed as nonsense, whicever half it is applied to -there could be no other responsible way of making sense of the varied responses to reality on the part of the intelligent, informed people that he know." Original statement by Stephen Jay Gould: "Impeaching a Self-Appointed Judge," Scientific American 267,no. 1(1992) http://www.stephenjaygould.org/reviews/gould_darwin-on-trial.html science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God's possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can't comment on it as scientists. If some of our crowd have made untoward statements claiming that Darwinism disproves God, then I will find Mrs. McInerney and have their knuckles rapped for it (as long as she can equally treat those members of our crowd who have argued that Darwinism must be God's method of action). Science can work only with naturalistic explanations; it can neither affirm nor deny other types of actors (like God) in other spheres (the moral realm, for example). The God delusion trumpets the fact that its author was recently voted onr of the world's three leading intellectuals. This survey took place among readers og the prospect magazine in nov 2005 In the last photo of this book, there is a quote from some honorable skeptic doctor. Dawkins seems to think he is competent. Prospect Magezene: http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/dawkinsthedogmatist/ by Andrew Brown(has a wiki page in wiki eng) "Incurious and rambling, Richard Dawkins’ diatribe against religion doesn’t come close to explaining how faith has survived the assault of Darwinism" Michael Ruse http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/nov/02/atheism-dawkins-ruse "The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist" "unlike the new atheists, I take scholarship seriously. I have written that The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist and I meant it. Trying to understand how God could need no cause, Christians claim that God exists necessarily. I have taken the effort to try to understand what that means. Dawkins and company are ignorant of such claims and positively contemptuous of those who even try to understand them, let alone believe them. Thus, like a first-year undergraduate, he can happily go around asking loudly, "What caused God?" as though he had made some momentous philosophical discovery." Terry Eaglton(one of Britain's most influential living literary critics), London Review of books, Vol. 28 No. 20 · 19 October 2006 pages 32-34: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/terry-eagleton/lunging-flailing-mispunching "Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. " "This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. " Our Cosmic Habitat By Martin J. Rees "The preeminent mystery is why anything exists at all. What breaths life into the equatoins of physics, and actualized them in a real cosmos? Such questions lie beyond science, however; they are the province of philosophers and theologians." p. xi The limits of science, Peter Madawar(noble prizewinner) p. 66: "That there is indeed a limit upon science is made very likely by existence of questions that science cannot answer, and that no conceivable advance of science would empower it to answer... I have in mind such questions as: How did everything begin? What are we all here for? What is the point of living?" Is God a Delusion, p. 33: In authors view Dawkins is ignoring the possiblity that when religion becomes a tool of division or a venue in which critical reflection is shut down, religion has lost its way. p.37: Dawkins commits the crude logical blunder of treating the conclusion of Aquinas' argument as if it were an assumption The Devil's Delusion, p.1: Biologist Keneth Miller affirmed that he saw no conflict whatsoever between his own catholic faith and Darwin's theory of evolution. Francis Collins who directed the Human Genome Project has made a very similar case for his religious beliefs. p.7: Richard Dawkins is described to be very "responsive to criticism" p.11: quoting Dawkins affirmation that Religion has the power to console, the author suggests pondering on the root of the fact of why religion has this power over the course of human history. p.14: Narrating a verse from Quran suggesting believers that there is a lesson to be learned in the turning over the night and the day, the author find a direct relationship between devoting to religion to scientific pursuit. p. 14: "In Islam, as in no other religion," the historian David King has remarked, "the performance of various aspects of religious ritual has been assisted by scientific procedure." p.19: Twentieth century was not an age of faith and it was awful. Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot will never to be counted among the religious leaders of mankind. p. 26: The author quotes Dawkins saying that the bad deeds of Nazis or Communists was not because of their atheism and it was rather their own desire to kill great many people. The author then concludes this came from the fact that those bad people did not believe that God was watching them. p.27: According to historian Richard Weikart, in "From Darwin to Hitler" Hitler chose his policy of killing the jews on the basis of evolutionary ethics in which based on Darwin's theory it was concluded that competition between species was reflected in human affairs by competition between races. p. 34: He disagrees with Dawkins and says if people are unpoliced by God they will not remain good, just as when they are unpoliced by the police. Alongside the philosophy of criminal law, he argues, moral enforcement is needed when law enforcement ends. p. 68 Berlinski though not necessarily approving Aquinas' conclusion, finds Dawkins's objection to Aquinas' argument inept. Aquinas, he states, did not make such an assumption that "God is immune to regress" as suggested by Dawkins. p. 145: Berlinski accuses Dawkins of "foolishily mingling" improbability and existence. He argues that parity of reasoning one could conclude that the existence of universe is unlikely in virtue of its improbability. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kazemita1 ( talk • contribs) 13:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC) PLEASE BE PATIENT!!! -- Kazemita1 ( talk) 16:38, 25 July 2012 (UTC) |
@The Hand That Feeds You: Well, if you are bothered with terms like "The author thinks" or "The author believes", then what do you say about this statement of Dawkins?
"I think that Gould's separate compartments was a purely political ploy to win middle-of-the-road religious people to the science camp. But it's a very empty idea. There are plenty of places where religion does not keep off the scientific turf. Any belief in miracles is flat contradictory not just to the facts of science but to the spirit of science" -- Kazemita1 ( talk) 21:47, 25 July 2012 (UTC) If Dawkins can use name-calling and it is allowed in his article, then so can his criticizers.-- Kazemita1 ( talk) 23:10, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
My mistake. It is shotgunning Kazemita1 ( talk) 23:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
{User:Hadjishafiee] What is the big deal with having criticism in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadjishafiee ( talk • contribs) 03:07, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree the "raw notes" need some work, but it is doable. Right now, there are not much criticism included in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nasiraei ( talk • contribs) 06:56, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with those folks who find the criticism section unnecessary19:48, 29 July 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Babajoon ( talk • contribs) — Babajoon ( talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.