Regarding both of those previous questions, the source is a little unclear. It seems that he probably started college after the 1966 season, but I'm not sure we can quite claim that from what is said. I think wording it as is best reflects the sources.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)reply
First professional season (1969)
How would you feel about restructuring this to have the five season sections all be subsections of a "Career" section?
That's a flippant answer. First of all, how do we know what Dark feared? We can know what he said, but not what what was actually going on in his head. Second, what do those references at the end of the paragraph say? --
Usernameunique (
talk)
18:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Read the paragraph to figure out what those references said. "Dark feared..." is an appropriate topic sentence for the paragraph. His account in the biography shows that he thought he left Hand in the game too long, and that doing so had a permanent impact on his career. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. But Dark feared it did. And your statement that we can't know what was actually going on inside his head - well then, how can it ever be said that someone "feared" something? We look for evidence indicating that they did. And Dark's statements are evidence that he "feared" he overused Hand.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:32, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I wasn't asking how you interpreted the references, I was asking what the references say. In any event, I've requested the book from my library, so I'll find out soon enough. As to what someone fears, what you can say (among other things) is that he wrote that he feared, or that he said what he feared. --
Usernameunique (
talk)
03:00, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Sanfranciscogiants17, here's what the reference says: "In Cleveland in 1970 I was pitching Rich Hand against the Angels. Hand hadn't completed a game that year, and after a certain number of pitches I told him to take a seat. He had a 6-2 lead, it was hot, I figured he'd done enough. He said he wanted to finish. I said no. About ten days later Hand was beating the Angels again, 6-0, but by the eighth inning he had thrown a lot of pitches. I went out to relieve him. He said, 'No Skip. Please let me finish.' I said, 'All right, but if you get into any trouble you're coming out.' He struggled through the eighth. I said, 'That's it, Rich.' He resisted again. 'Aw, c'mon, Skip. Let me finish. I gotta finish a game.' And like an idiot I said okay. He would up throwing about 150 pitches that day. The next time he was due to pitch he came to me complainting of a sore elbow. 'I don't know what happened, Skip,' he said. Well, I knew what happened. And it was my fault. Rich Hand wasn't the same after that. His arm never came back." What about that passage supports the idea that "Dark feared that he may have overused Hand" (my emphases)? --
Usernameunique (
talk)
18:23, 5 March 2022 (UTC)reply
UsernameuniqueEverything about the passage supports that idea, but most specifically - "And like an idiot" - "His arm never came back." We can conclude from this statement that Dark thought he had overused Hand. And, contrary to what you say, we can know what he was thinking - HE WROTE THE BOOK, for goodness' sake - these are his thoughts on paper! However, we can't just say "Dark overused Hand" because of editorial sense - there are any number of reasons why Hand might not have turned into a good pitcher. Dark simply remembers a time where he feels like an idiot for doing something that he perceives had a negative effect on Hand's career. I don't understand why this wording is problematic, and I will not be changing it. If that's going to be a problem for you, I might as well go ahead and renominate the article, because I'm convinced that "Dark feared" is the best way to report this info.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
12:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Here and elsewhere, see
MOS:NUMNOTES, particularly: "Comparable values should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if one of the numbers would normally be written differently: patients' ages were five, seven, and thirty-two or ages were5, 7, and32, but not ages were five, seven, and 32."
I scanned through with this lens on. Arguably there are some inning counts that could be fixed in §First professional season (1969). This is an optional MOS item as far as the GA criteria are concerned.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
18:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Source says "considered not reporting"...which you are correct, is not technically considered retiring - he may have hoped to catch on with a different ballclub. Changed wording to be more synonymous with what was said.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
00:42, 7 June 2022 (UTC)reply
What does "he was loaned" mean?
Actually, looking at Baseball-Reference.com, it says he was "optioned." That, however, usually means that the parent club sent him down, and Pawtucket was affiliated with Boston, not California. I tried to find out how Hand might have gone from California's system to Boston's but was unable. The SABR source does make clear that the time with Pawtucket was later in the year, so I changed the wording.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Description, career statistics and pitching style
Were those saves in closer situations, or just pitching the final three innings?
Yes, and it's already linked, so I'm not relinking it here. Given that Paul's usually a first name, though, it seemed appropriate to spell out the whole name, rather than risk readers thinking this was some guy with the first name of Paul.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:26, 22 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I drew them from the SABR article. If you prefer, I can cite the SABR article itself instead. I just chose to cite these to show the various sources the information was coming from.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
In that case, I would cite both the SABR article and the underlying sources. Generally speaking, though, it's not a particularly good practice to cite sources which you haven't read. --
Usernameunique (
talk)
03:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
#17, #24 — These should be formatted with {{cite news}}. That will also solve the fact that the entire cites are currently links, not just the titles of the articles.
Interesting. I want to say that when I worked on this article, the link (I guess an old one) didn't work, and I couldn't find it on the site. Maybe I was just looking on the wrong site. Anyway, thanks for discovering it - I added it in.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Second opinion requested in the hopes of finding reviewer to take over
Regrettably,
Usernameunique has been inactive for a while and although they have replied to queries, they have twice failed to resume reviewing on the schedule they themselves proposed. The nomination status has been changed to "2nd opinion" in the hopes of finding a new reviewer to take over the review. Thank you to whoever steps up.
BlueMoonset (
talk)
19:42, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I've seen nothing—in the cited sources I spot-checked or the not-yet-cited sources I've found—that suggests there are major parts of the biography unaddressed.
I see where the reviewer was coming from with "Dark feared", but I think it's a reasonable summary.
I think the Sporting News sources might be accessible to you. Head to
SABR site, head to the The Sporting News entry, and click on "Free for SABR members via Paper of Record." Seems that's somehow enough to get Paper of Record access, with the paper showing under Missouri. All the cited articles are available via the search. Let me know if this doesn't work for you and I can email PDFs. I tried briefly but was unable to get a link that could work in a citation.
I tried accessing them but was unable to (probably because I'm not an SABR member). If you're willing to send them as PDFs, though, I'd be happy to check the article against them and cite them or just cite to the SABR page. I just checked and made sure the email setting on my profile is set up, so you should be able to email me.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
00:32, 7 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Not a GA criteria item: please do link Alvin Dark in the citation. See
MOS:REFLINK for citations as an exception to the duplicate link guideline.
Can you please respond to each line of Usernameunique's review? Even if it's to say "I don't know" or "I disagree".
Stopping here for now. I won't put this on hold until I have a full review out, and at that point you'll have a week to fix any issues. If you'd like to get started on the above items now, go for it, but I expect you'll have plenty of time.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
03:34, 6 June 2022 (UTC)reply
GA review notes
Lead
Is Dark's opinion due for the lead? I know it's mentioned in Dark's book, but is given coverage anywhere else? Though Dark has a "he never recovered" attitude toward the overuse that season, Hand's best pitching days were (arguably) ahead of him.
Presumably, the Indians' Triple-A team switched from the Beavers to the Aeros between 1969 and 1971. The word "now" is not doing a good job of making that clear.
@
Sanfranciscogiants17: it's ok if the timing isn't clear, but "now" could easily imply something like "He played for the Indians' Triple-A team, which we're not sharing the name of, but in 2022 their AAA team is now the Aeros." I think there's some rewording you could do to avoid the confusing "now".
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
23:39, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
It would partially alleviate the Pawtucket mystery to note that he was there "on option" per SABR. I'm digging through the Sporting News results to see if I can find anything else.
The only thing is, I'm not sure that that is accurate. "On option" would mean that he had a major league contract with the Red Sox, who would then have optioned him to Pawtucket. I'm not finding a record of any transaction that made Hand property of the Red Sox. I think it's better left a mystery than stated more definitively than we have cause to.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
22:26, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Final read through done. Overall GA criteria list above is updated.
Sanfranciscogiants17, congrats on another GA! Future improvements could address more of the optional items below, clarify the Pawtucket mystery, and mine more sources available through Paper of Record and Newspapers.com archives. If you have an idea of what you're looking for, I'm always happy to dig a bit an provide PDFs or clippings.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
14:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Non-GA notes (optional)
Overall
"Broad"ness is looking good, but here are some sources you should at least consider:
Fort Worth Star-Telegram (2015): Apparently Hand had a Rangers record for starts with 3 ERA or under, not tied until 2015.
Season in Hell (1996):
Mike Shropshire quotes
Whitey Herzog as calling (while naked in his office) Hand and Mike Paul "a couple of shitballers" (p. 5) and Shropshire says of the two that they "knew how to pitch but had arms like worn-out rubber bands".
Play-by-Play (2007):
Bill Mercer notes Hand's 10 victories was the highest total of the Rangers' pitching lineup in 1972 (p. 201). He has an interesting anecdote about a Hand vs.
Ted Williams argument at the mound over continuing to pitch through the bottom of the ninth and puts Hand's ERA in 1972 as the best of the team's starting pitchers (p. 206). A not so interesting anecdote about Mercer giving Hand advice is on 206–207.
Please review for consistency in use of Oxford/serial comma
Please review quoted material for
MOS:LQ punctuation fixes. Comma should follow the quotation marks in sentences like: "This is a very minor matter", said Firefangledfeathers.
Just a note on why these commas aren't compliant - I was taught in school that commas always went within the punctuation marks, not without. Obviously, it's a style thing - what's right in MLA isn't necessarily going to fly in Chicago, or vice-versa. If I ever try to take this to FA status, then I will work on making the change.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
22:38, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Please add alt text to images
Check all the "however"s to be sure they're needed.
Regarding both of those previous questions, the source is a little unclear. It seems that he probably started college after the 1966 season, but I'm not sure we can quite claim that from what is said. I think wording it as is best reflects the sources.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)reply
First professional season (1969)
How would you feel about restructuring this to have the five season sections all be subsections of a "Career" section?
That's a flippant answer. First of all, how do we know what Dark feared? We can know what he said, but not what what was actually going on in his head. Second, what do those references at the end of the paragraph say? --
Usernameunique (
talk)
18:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Read the paragraph to figure out what those references said. "Dark feared..." is an appropriate topic sentence for the paragraph. His account in the biography shows that he thought he left Hand in the game too long, and that doing so had a permanent impact on his career. Maybe it did. Maybe it didn't. But Dark feared it did. And your statement that we can't know what was actually going on inside his head - well then, how can it ever be said that someone "feared" something? We look for evidence indicating that they did. And Dark's statements are evidence that he "feared" he overused Hand.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:32, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
I wasn't asking how you interpreted the references, I was asking what the references say. In any event, I've requested the book from my library, so I'll find out soon enough. As to what someone fears, what you can say (among other things) is that he wrote that he feared, or that he said what he feared. --
Usernameunique (
talk)
03:00, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Sanfranciscogiants17, here's what the reference says: "In Cleveland in 1970 I was pitching Rich Hand against the Angels. Hand hadn't completed a game that year, and after a certain number of pitches I told him to take a seat. He had a 6-2 lead, it was hot, I figured he'd done enough. He said he wanted to finish. I said no. About ten days later Hand was beating the Angels again, 6-0, but by the eighth inning he had thrown a lot of pitches. I went out to relieve him. He said, 'No Skip. Please let me finish.' I said, 'All right, but if you get into any trouble you're coming out.' He struggled through the eighth. I said, 'That's it, Rich.' He resisted again. 'Aw, c'mon, Skip. Let me finish. I gotta finish a game.' And like an idiot I said okay. He would up throwing about 150 pitches that day. The next time he was due to pitch he came to me complainting of a sore elbow. 'I don't know what happened, Skip,' he said. Well, I knew what happened. And it was my fault. Rich Hand wasn't the same after that. His arm never came back." What about that passage supports the idea that "Dark feared that he may have overused Hand" (my emphases)? --
Usernameunique (
talk)
18:23, 5 March 2022 (UTC)reply
UsernameuniqueEverything about the passage supports that idea, but most specifically - "And like an idiot" - "His arm never came back." We can conclude from this statement that Dark thought he had overused Hand. And, contrary to what you say, we can know what he was thinking - HE WROTE THE BOOK, for goodness' sake - these are his thoughts on paper! However, we can't just say "Dark overused Hand" because of editorial sense - there are any number of reasons why Hand might not have turned into a good pitcher. Dark simply remembers a time where he feels like an idiot for doing something that he perceives had a negative effect on Hand's career. I don't understand why this wording is problematic, and I will not be changing it. If that's going to be a problem for you, I might as well go ahead and renominate the article, because I'm convinced that "Dark feared" is the best way to report this info.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
12:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)reply
Here and elsewhere, see
MOS:NUMNOTES, particularly: "Comparable values should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if one of the numbers would normally be written differently: patients' ages were five, seven, and thirty-two or ages were5, 7, and32, but not ages were five, seven, and 32."
I scanned through with this lens on. Arguably there are some inning counts that could be fixed in §First professional season (1969). This is an optional MOS item as far as the GA criteria are concerned.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
18:43, 9 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Source says "considered not reporting"...which you are correct, is not technically considered retiring - he may have hoped to catch on with a different ballclub. Changed wording to be more synonymous with what was said.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
00:42, 7 June 2022 (UTC)reply
What does "he was loaned" mean?
Actually, looking at Baseball-Reference.com, it says he was "optioned." That, however, usually means that the parent club sent him down, and Pawtucket was affiliated with Boston, not California. I tried to find out how Hand might have gone from California's system to Boston's but was unable. The SABR source does make clear that the time with Pawtucket was later in the year, so I changed the wording.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)reply
Description, career statistics and pitching style
Were those saves in closer situations, or just pitching the final three innings?
Yes, and it's already linked, so I'm not relinking it here. Given that Paul's usually a first name, though, it seemed appropriate to spell out the whole name, rather than risk readers thinking this was some guy with the first name of Paul.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:26, 22 January 2022 (UTC)reply
I drew them from the SABR article. If you prefer, I can cite the SABR article itself instead. I just chose to cite these to show the various sources the information was coming from.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
In that case, I would cite both the SABR article and the underlying sources. Generally speaking, though, it's not a particularly good practice to cite sources which you haven't read. --
Usernameunique (
talk)
03:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)reply
#17, #24 — These should be formatted with {{cite news}}. That will also solve the fact that the entire cites are currently links, not just the titles of the articles.
Interesting. I want to say that when I worked on this article, the link (I guess an old one) didn't work, and I couldn't find it on the site. Maybe I was just looking on the wrong site. Anyway, thanks for discovering it - I added it in.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
16:39, 5 February 2022 (UTC)reply
Second opinion requested in the hopes of finding reviewer to take over
Regrettably,
Usernameunique has been inactive for a while and although they have replied to queries, they have twice failed to resume reviewing on the schedule they themselves proposed. The nomination status has been changed to "2nd opinion" in the hopes of finding a new reviewer to take over the review. Thank you to whoever steps up.
BlueMoonset (
talk)
19:42, 8 May 2022 (UTC)reply
I've seen nothing—in the cited sources I spot-checked or the not-yet-cited sources I've found—that suggests there are major parts of the biography unaddressed.
I see where the reviewer was coming from with "Dark feared", but I think it's a reasonable summary.
I think the Sporting News sources might be accessible to you. Head to
SABR site, head to the The Sporting News entry, and click on "Free for SABR members via Paper of Record." Seems that's somehow enough to get Paper of Record access, with the paper showing under Missouri. All the cited articles are available via the search. Let me know if this doesn't work for you and I can email PDFs. I tried briefly but was unable to get a link that could work in a citation.
I tried accessing them but was unable to (probably because I'm not an SABR member). If you're willing to send them as PDFs, though, I'd be happy to check the article against them and cite them or just cite to the SABR page. I just checked and made sure the email setting on my profile is set up, so you should be able to email me.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
00:32, 7 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Not a GA criteria item: please do link Alvin Dark in the citation. See
MOS:REFLINK for citations as an exception to the duplicate link guideline.
Can you please respond to each line of Usernameunique's review? Even if it's to say "I don't know" or "I disagree".
Stopping here for now. I won't put this on hold until I have a full review out, and at that point you'll have a week to fix any issues. If you'd like to get started on the above items now, go for it, but I expect you'll have plenty of time.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
03:34, 6 June 2022 (UTC)reply
GA review notes
Lead
Is Dark's opinion due for the lead? I know it's mentioned in Dark's book, but is given coverage anywhere else? Though Dark has a "he never recovered" attitude toward the overuse that season, Hand's best pitching days were (arguably) ahead of him.
Presumably, the Indians' Triple-A team switched from the Beavers to the Aeros between 1969 and 1971. The word "now" is not doing a good job of making that clear.
@
Sanfranciscogiants17: it's ok if the timing isn't clear, but "now" could easily imply something like "He played for the Indians' Triple-A team, which we're not sharing the name of, but in 2022 their AAA team is now the Aeros." I think there's some rewording you could do to avoid the confusing "now".
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
23:39, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
It would partially alleviate the Pawtucket mystery to note that he was there "on option" per SABR. I'm digging through the Sporting News results to see if I can find anything else.
The only thing is, I'm not sure that that is accurate. "On option" would mean that he had a major league contract with the Red Sox, who would then have optioned him to Pawtucket. I'm not finding a record of any transaction that made Hand property of the Red Sox. I think it's better left a mystery than stated more definitively than we have cause to.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
22:26, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Final read through done. Overall GA criteria list above is updated.
Sanfranciscogiants17, congrats on another GA! Future improvements could address more of the optional items below, clarify the Pawtucket mystery, and mine more sources available through Paper of Record and Newspapers.com archives. If you have an idea of what you're looking for, I'm always happy to dig a bit an provide PDFs or clippings.
Firefangledfeathers (
talk /
contribs)
14:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Non-GA notes (optional)
Overall
"Broad"ness is looking good, but here are some sources you should at least consider:
Fort Worth Star-Telegram (2015): Apparently Hand had a Rangers record for starts with 3 ERA or under, not tied until 2015.
Season in Hell (1996):
Mike Shropshire quotes
Whitey Herzog as calling (while naked in his office) Hand and Mike Paul "a couple of shitballers" (p. 5) and Shropshire says of the two that they "knew how to pitch but had arms like worn-out rubber bands".
Play-by-Play (2007):
Bill Mercer notes Hand's 10 victories was the highest total of the Rangers' pitching lineup in 1972 (p. 201). He has an interesting anecdote about a Hand vs.
Ted Williams argument at the mound over continuing to pitch through the bottom of the ninth and puts Hand's ERA in 1972 as the best of the team's starting pitchers (p. 206). A not so interesting anecdote about Mercer giving Hand advice is on 206–207.
Please review for consistency in use of Oxford/serial comma
Please review quoted material for
MOS:LQ punctuation fixes. Comma should follow the quotation marks in sentences like: "This is a very minor matter", said Firefangledfeathers.
Just a note on why these commas aren't compliant - I was taught in school that commas always went within the punctuation marks, not without. Obviously, it's a style thing - what's right in MLA isn't necessarily going to fly in Chicago, or vice-versa. If I ever try to take this to FA status, then I will work on making the change.
Sanfranciscogiants17 (
talk)
22:38, 11 June 2022 (UTC)reply
Please add alt text to images
Check all the "however"s to be sure they're needed.