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It seems clear to me that the "clarification needed" tag added in this edit by Wolfdog was about the word "weakened", which is phonetically vague. As in this edit summary, it is probably best for it to be next to the same statement in the body of the article rather than in the intro. — Eru· tuon 19:45, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
In the lead, it seems potentially confusing to me to simultaneously have "1700s" referring to 1701-1799 and "1740s" referring to 1740-1749. One refers to a century, the other to a decade. The other option is to use "18th century" but "1740s". I don't like the mismatch there either. — Eru· tuon 20:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
"The advent of radio and television in the early 20th century established a national standard of American pronunciation that fully preserved historical /r/."
This sentence, which is unsourced, seems so wrong to me. Listen to old radio broadcasts, or movies from the 1930's, and non-rhoticity is rampant. I believe the prestige standard was actually non-rhotic at this time, and the shift (as reflected in movies and broadcasting) was post World War II. Does anyone know of reference sources that could be used to fix this? Thanks. Opus33 ( talk) 03:10, 3 August 2017 (UTC) P.S. to whoever did the work: nice article. P.P.S. Television was invented in the 1920's but did not become widely distributed until after WW2, hardly "early 20th century".
@ Opus33, White whirlwind, and LakeKayak: Sorry to be a pain, but I don't see how Opus's main concern has been addressed. I've read both this section and the one below. Indeed, the prestige standard was non-rhoticity, as Opus says, up until WWII, as various sources on the page Mid-Atlantic accent can attest. So what does the Fisher source mean that "Non-rhotic pronunciation continued to influence American prestige speech until the 1860s, when the American Civil War shifted America's centers of wealth and political power"? Does it mean that this shift took place in a span of year ranging from the 1860s to almost the 1960s??? On the contrary, it seems that in only a much shorter span of years (something like the 1940s to 1960s) did the non-rhotic prestige find itself on the outs. Wolfdog ( talk) 13:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
I've been checking up a bit. To review, the article currently says (twice):
when the advent of radio and television in the early 20th century established a national standard of American pronunciation, it became a rhotic variety that fully preserves historical /r/.
Here is what I've found bearing on this.
1. There is another WP article, Mid-Atlantic accent, that bears on the question. This article describes precisely the accent I had in mind when I posted my original comment, including its non-rhoticity and its prevalence in pre-World War II broadcasting and movies.
2. I also checked up on the source material, a published article by John Hurt Fisher. It says this (and only this):
By the time radio and television began to establish a norm of pronunciation, they favored the rhotic Middle Western pronunciation rather than the nonrhotic of Boston and Virginia.
Fisher does not say just when "radio and television began to establish a norm of pronunciation". The fact that he mentions television, which (to reiterate) was widely viewable only after World War II, suggests that he does not mean that his sentence should be taken to bear on what happened pre-war.
In sum, I think the sentence under discussion misleads readers in three ways:
Sincerely, Opus33 ( talk) 17:10, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Why, particularly here on a page about pronunciation, are the pronunciation guides provided solely in IPA? IPA may be superior to other more traditional guides, but its rigid adoption by Wikipedia authors makes the pronunciation guides useless for anyone who has not studied IPA. Providing only IPA unnecessarily and narrow-mindedly creates a barrier to understanding. I am not going to take the time to study IPA. Most people who come to Wikipedia are not going to study IPA. When I need information about a subject that includes the pronunciation of its terms, I have learned to avoid Wikipedia and look elsewhere. Sad! Gillead_Fnott ( talk) 17:20, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
The History section has a footnote (currently #11) with the following French citation from Lass (1999), p. 115: ...dans plusieurs mots, l’r devant une consonne est fort adouci, presque muet & rend un peu longue la voyale qui le precede. Could someone please check if Lass is cited correctly with the word forms voyale and precede instead of the expected voyelle and précède? If so I suggest we insert sics after these highly unusual word forms. Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 12:06, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Also: 'qui LA précède' (not LE, consonne is feminine) stefjourdan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2401:7000:B067:E200:85BF:B40F:B471:AD9B ( talk) 01:19, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
No idea how you feel about maps but these two feel like the artist took quite some license when move parts of Wales to England. It's confusing for most of the world anyways to show just England and not the better known depiction of the geological southern part of the isle.
while the third one could be replaced with an svg version as well
Anyone up for the task? -- TomK32 ( talk) 22:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
I think that the areas of Wales included were those that were in the Survey of English Dialects. Monmouthshire as a whole was included, plus one site in Flintshire that had been in Cheshire in the past.
I have just posted this on the discussion page for the multi-coloured map for the "farmer" end vowel. Re-posting here as I'm not sure if anyone reads the talk pages on maps.
Is there any way to get the green in the key looking more like the green on the map? I saw this map on the article for the Survey of English Dialects and it's hard to tell that the two are the same. Epa101 ( talk) 10:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Are you sure that the Isle of Man should be the non-rhotic colour? Whatever I've read on the Isle of Man from the SED always had it as rhotic. It's possible that this mistake was in the original source. Epa101 ( talk) 10:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
This article is completely missing information about how the r sounded and mostly (only?) talks about its strength. Specifically there is not even any mention that it was usually or always trilled until fairly recently in most dialects. http://blogicarian.blogspot.com/2018/07/on-shakespeare-and-original.html and https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/298566/why-and-when-was-the-trilled-r-in-middle-english-replaced-by-the-modern-untrille cite sources that show our current quote of Jonson is missing the most important part, which clearly describes rolling/trembling/trilling. -- Espoo ( talk) 22:57, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
The symbol r stands for a vowel (as in dirt and Bert, where the i & e are not pronounced). In much of England the symbol r has the pronunciation of the schwa (ə). Since we do not recognize the vowel schwa, though it is used all the time (but never written), people speak of England speakers as not pronouncing the r. I think that they do, but they pronounce it as schwa. If you study the vowels in mouth diagrams, you find that r and ə can be produced with the tongue in the same position, only lower for the ə. Thus while Americans are likely to say other (more accurately əther), people of England are likely to say "othə" (better put as əthə, uhthuh it might be carelessly written). ( PeacePeace ( talk) 06:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC))
The term non-rhotic is accurate.I don't even think that's what PeacePeace is arguing with. I don't know what is though. Nardog ( talk) 09:16, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
In the lead the there is a line which states "these /r/-less spellings were uncommon and were restricted to private documents, especially ones written by women". That last part, "especially ones written by women", feels off. The source where it comes from is not easy to get a hold of so I cannot confirm or deny that it is true, but even if it is, I feel as if there needs to be some sort of clarification as to why this is the case. BlastKast ( talk) 17:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Indian English is not rhotic. I say this as somebody who has lived and studied there for three decades, and is considered fluent in the language. I don't have time to look up sources and correct the article, but someone should look into this. At best, Indian English may be described as variably rhotic or semi-rhotic (the description of Jamaican English in the article seems accurate of the typical pronunciation in India, though the actual accents are very different.) As it is, Indian English as taught in most schools around the country is derived from British English as introduced to the country more than a hundred years ago. Any rhoticity is purely an influence of American movies and popular culture, and would be considered a corruption ("Americanized accent") of the actual standards of pronunciation in the country. 2601:249:8700:7790:48DC:9281:54A3:65FE ( talk) 00:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
If you want some proof of this (not a reliable source I know), see the character Raj's accent on the Big Bang Theory and note the lack of rhoticity, especially in the early seasons when his accent is mocked by the other characters. While the show is a comedy and a large part of his way of talking is exaggerated for comedic effect (especially in later seasons), it is close to what Indian English sounds like in terms of rhoticity. 2601:249:8700:7790:48DC:9281:54A3:65FE ( talk) 00:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
The fact that the Mid-Atlantic accent died out shortly after WWII is because it was non-rhotic. It is an example of non-rhoticity not lasting much past the war. The fact that it lasted a few years beyond the war itself doesn't make it an exception to the general trend of decline. Its hey-day was before and during the war, just as one would expect of a non-rhotic American accent. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:52, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
This is sentence doesn’t make sense: “In the mid-18th century, postvocalic /r/ was still pronounced in most environments, but by the 1740s to 1770s it was often deleted entirely”. The mid 18th century couldn’t be better defined than by 1740s to 1770s. Rickogorman ( talk) 08:10, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
I propose that someone familiar with this topic try to simplify the article. I came away a lot more confused after reading this page. For example there is no explanation what the "Goat–comma–letter merger" is, just a lot of discussion about it. "Goat" doesn't sound remotely like "letter". Out of most scientific content on Wikipedia I find the phonology articles to be the most frustrating... they're like reading transmission repair manuals. - Rolypolyman ( talk) 15:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
This
level-5 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|||
It seems clear to me that the "clarification needed" tag added in this edit by Wolfdog was about the word "weakened", which is phonetically vague. As in this edit summary, it is probably best for it to be next to the same statement in the body of the article rather than in the intro. — Eru· tuon 19:45, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
In the lead, it seems potentially confusing to me to simultaneously have "1700s" referring to 1701-1799 and "1740s" referring to 1740-1749. One refers to a century, the other to a decade. The other option is to use "18th century" but "1740s". I don't like the mismatch there either. — Eru· tuon 20:09, 28 June 2017 (UTC)
"The advent of radio and television in the early 20th century established a national standard of American pronunciation that fully preserved historical /r/."
This sentence, which is unsourced, seems so wrong to me. Listen to old radio broadcasts, or movies from the 1930's, and non-rhoticity is rampant. I believe the prestige standard was actually non-rhotic at this time, and the shift (as reflected in movies and broadcasting) was post World War II. Does anyone know of reference sources that could be used to fix this? Thanks. Opus33 ( talk) 03:10, 3 August 2017 (UTC) P.S. to whoever did the work: nice article. P.P.S. Television was invented in the 1920's but did not become widely distributed until after WW2, hardly "early 20th century".
@ Opus33, White whirlwind, and LakeKayak: Sorry to be a pain, but I don't see how Opus's main concern has been addressed. I've read both this section and the one below. Indeed, the prestige standard was non-rhoticity, as Opus says, up until WWII, as various sources on the page Mid-Atlantic accent can attest. So what does the Fisher source mean that "Non-rhotic pronunciation continued to influence American prestige speech until the 1860s, when the American Civil War shifted America's centers of wealth and political power"? Does it mean that this shift took place in a span of year ranging from the 1860s to almost the 1960s??? On the contrary, it seems that in only a much shorter span of years (something like the 1940s to 1960s) did the non-rhotic prestige find itself on the outs. Wolfdog ( talk) 13:48, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
I've been checking up a bit. To review, the article currently says (twice):
when the advent of radio and television in the early 20th century established a national standard of American pronunciation, it became a rhotic variety that fully preserves historical /r/.
Here is what I've found bearing on this.
1. There is another WP article, Mid-Atlantic accent, that bears on the question. This article describes precisely the accent I had in mind when I posted my original comment, including its non-rhoticity and its prevalence in pre-World War II broadcasting and movies.
2. I also checked up on the source material, a published article by John Hurt Fisher. It says this (and only this):
By the time radio and television began to establish a norm of pronunciation, they favored the rhotic Middle Western pronunciation rather than the nonrhotic of Boston and Virginia.
Fisher does not say just when "radio and television began to establish a norm of pronunciation". The fact that he mentions television, which (to reiterate) was widely viewable only after World War II, suggests that he does not mean that his sentence should be taken to bear on what happened pre-war.
In sum, I think the sentence under discussion misleads readers in three ways:
Sincerely, Opus33 ( talk) 17:10, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Why, particularly here on a page about pronunciation, are the pronunciation guides provided solely in IPA? IPA may be superior to other more traditional guides, but its rigid adoption by Wikipedia authors makes the pronunciation guides useless for anyone who has not studied IPA. Providing only IPA unnecessarily and narrow-mindedly creates a barrier to understanding. I am not going to take the time to study IPA. Most people who come to Wikipedia are not going to study IPA. When I need information about a subject that includes the pronunciation of its terms, I have learned to avoid Wikipedia and look elsewhere. Sad! Gillead_Fnott ( talk) 17:20, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
The History section has a footnote (currently #11) with the following French citation from Lass (1999), p. 115: ...dans plusieurs mots, l’r devant une consonne est fort adouci, presque muet & rend un peu longue la voyale qui le precede. Could someone please check if Lass is cited correctly with the word forms voyale and precede instead of the expected voyelle and précède? If so I suggest we insert sics after these highly unusual word forms. Love — LiliCharlie ( talk) 12:06, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
Also: 'qui LA précède' (not LE, consonne is feminine) stefjourdan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2401:7000:B067:E200:85BF:B40F:B471:AD9B ( talk) 01:19, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
No idea how you feel about maps but these two feel like the artist took quite some license when move parts of Wales to England. It's confusing for most of the world anyways to show just England and not the better known depiction of the geological southern part of the isle.
while the third one could be replaced with an svg version as well
Anyone up for the task? -- TomK32 ( talk) 22:05, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
I think that the areas of Wales included were those that were in the Survey of English Dialects. Monmouthshire as a whole was included, plus one site in Flintshire that had been in Cheshire in the past.
I have just posted this on the discussion page for the multi-coloured map for the "farmer" end vowel. Re-posting here as I'm not sure if anyone reads the talk pages on maps.
Is there any way to get the green in the key looking more like the green on the map? I saw this map on the article for the Survey of English Dialects and it's hard to tell that the two are the same. Epa101 ( talk) 10:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
Are you sure that the Isle of Man should be the non-rhotic colour? Whatever I've read on the Isle of Man from the SED always had it as rhotic. It's possible that this mistake was in the original source. Epa101 ( talk) 10:49, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
This article is completely missing information about how the r sounded and mostly (only?) talks about its strength. Specifically there is not even any mention that it was usually or always trilled until fairly recently in most dialects. http://blogicarian.blogspot.com/2018/07/on-shakespeare-and-original.html and https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/298566/why-and-when-was-the-trilled-r-in-middle-english-replaced-by-the-modern-untrille cite sources that show our current quote of Jonson is missing the most important part, which clearly describes rolling/trembling/trilling. -- Espoo ( talk) 22:57, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
The symbol r stands for a vowel (as in dirt and Bert, where the i & e are not pronounced). In much of England the symbol r has the pronunciation of the schwa (ə). Since we do not recognize the vowel schwa, though it is used all the time (but never written), people speak of England speakers as not pronouncing the r. I think that they do, but they pronounce it as schwa. If you study the vowels in mouth diagrams, you find that r and ə can be produced with the tongue in the same position, only lower for the ə. Thus while Americans are likely to say other (more accurately əther), people of England are likely to say "othə" (better put as əthə, uhthuh it might be carelessly written). ( PeacePeace ( talk) 06:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC))
The term non-rhotic is accurate.I don't even think that's what PeacePeace is arguing with. I don't know what is though. Nardog ( talk) 09:16, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
In the lead the there is a line which states "these /r/-less spellings were uncommon and were restricted to private documents, especially ones written by women". That last part, "especially ones written by women", feels off. The source where it comes from is not easy to get a hold of so I cannot confirm or deny that it is true, but even if it is, I feel as if there needs to be some sort of clarification as to why this is the case. BlastKast ( talk) 17:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
Indian English is not rhotic. I say this as somebody who has lived and studied there for three decades, and is considered fluent in the language. I don't have time to look up sources and correct the article, but someone should look into this. At best, Indian English may be described as variably rhotic or semi-rhotic (the description of Jamaican English in the article seems accurate of the typical pronunciation in India, though the actual accents are very different.) As it is, Indian English as taught in most schools around the country is derived from British English as introduced to the country more than a hundred years ago. Any rhoticity is purely an influence of American movies and popular culture, and would be considered a corruption ("Americanized accent") of the actual standards of pronunciation in the country. 2601:249:8700:7790:48DC:9281:54A3:65FE ( talk) 00:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
If you want some proof of this (not a reliable source I know), see the character Raj's accent on the Big Bang Theory and note the lack of rhoticity, especially in the early seasons when his accent is mocked by the other characters. While the show is a comedy and a large part of his way of talking is exaggerated for comedic effect (especially in later seasons), it is close to what Indian English sounds like in terms of rhoticity. 2601:249:8700:7790:48DC:9281:54A3:65FE ( talk) 00:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
The fact that the Mid-Atlantic accent died out shortly after WWII is because it was non-rhotic. It is an example of non-rhoticity not lasting much past the war. The fact that it lasted a few years beyond the war itself doesn't make it an exception to the general trend of decline. Its hey-day was before and during the war, just as one would expect of a non-rhotic American accent. Wolfdog ( talk) 15:52, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
This is sentence doesn’t make sense: “In the mid-18th century, postvocalic /r/ was still pronounced in most environments, but by the 1740s to 1770s it was often deleted entirely”. The mid 18th century couldn’t be better defined than by 1740s to 1770s. Rickogorman ( talk) 08:10, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
I propose that someone familiar with this topic try to simplify the article. I came away a lot more confused after reading this page. For example there is no explanation what the "Goat–comma–letter merger" is, just a lot of discussion about it. "Goat" doesn't sound remotely like "letter". Out of most scientific content on Wikipedia I find the phonology articles to be the most frustrating... they're like reading transmission repair manuals. - Rolypolyman ( talk) 15:03, 22 August 2023 (UTC)