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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Shouldn't something about Deedat's "Crucifixion or Crucifiction" be mentioned here somewhere? [1] It's a study by a muslim scholar of the bible. Faro0485 ( talk) 06:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
The Book of Mormon has no historical value. Its origin is unknown. Its history is demonstrably false (i.e., native Americans are not tribes of Israel). This should be removed.
You might as well quote what the moonies think about the resurrection as evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.64.30 ( talk) 07:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
What happened afterwards? Someone should post a link or start a new paragraph
24.98.47.141 ( talk) 01:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
This link was removed with the pretext "Myths take several generations to take hold". This assertion, if it were true (and it isn't, as analytical psychology has repeatedly demonstrated -- new myths can take hold within a single mind, in a single lifetime), is a non-sequitur to the article content, which discusses the archetypal dynamics of the Jesus resurrection story. This link should stay, as the article it links to contributes important insights to the psychological dynamics of the resurrection, and why it is that the story, as told in the Bible, has persisted for millenia despite inconclusive verifiable evidence of its literal historicity. Davigoli ( talk) 17:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Although Christianity is commonly described as the religion of the Resurrection, there is an older tradition that places more emphasis on the dogma of the Incarnation, hence the title religion of the Incarnation. This is very much apparent when reading the works of the Church Fathers, such as Cyril of Alexandria, who mentioned the Incarnation when debating against Arians in order to prove the divinity of Christ. It could therefore be argued that the original apostles already believed in Jesus's divinity before his crucifixion/resurrection because they had been taught about the incarnation doctrine. ADM ( talk) 21:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Please fix this: "It is, of course, critically important whether or not Jesus did actually rise from the dead: for if he did, then his teachings are worthy of serious consideration. " -- 200.226.152.206 ( talk) 05:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Skepticism is not NPOV. I made a couple of edits to provide a more-neutral POV, and they were removed because someone considered them "unsourced and POV." Skepticism is a POV. For an article to be NPOV, it must fairly represent all views. In the section "Jesus Resurrection," A fanciful account from the "Gospel of Peter" is presented alongside a reference to the canonical Gospels. This juxtaposition implies that the accounts are on more or less equal footing. This is not an objective POV. Whatever, one's view of the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus, he or she must admit that documents such as the Gospel of Peter have a very different quality than the four canonical Gospels.
In the section "Tomb Discovery," there is the following statement: "However, such an argument has an obvious flaw: the very fact that people consider the story to be 'self-authenticating' due to these elements provides a motive for their inclusion." First of all, this is not NPOV. Second, it misses the point of the argument. The point is that it is extremely unlikely that anyone at that time would have invented such an account. Even those who were reporting history frequently embellished the facts to make their patrons or friends appear more heroic. It is a very modern idea to design an account so that it contains unflattering elements to make it appear authentic even though it is fabricated. The above statement is clearly not NPOV and commits an anachronistic fallacy. RodPickett ( talk) 21:39, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
This sentence/phrase "Some contemporary scholars still express doubts about the historicity of the resurrection accounts and have debated their origin" seems to take a NPOV and reads as if the author believes in the resurrection of Jesus. Essentially, to me, the sentence reads as if most people, by now, accept the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact and that only some small minority of people think it didn't happen. (edit by IP 95, etc.)
Recently, a user has changed the definition of the resurrection (which is an event), to a belief. Such a change is inaccurate and no valid reason has been given. ReaverFlash ( talk) 15:22, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The first sentence currently reads: "According to Christians, the resurrection of Jesus, following his death as result of crucifixion, is the event upon which Christian doctrine, ritual and theology is based." It seems to keep changing every few hours, but basically that's the sentence.
I humbly submit that this isn't what the first sentence should be. It's a statement of why the Resurrection is important, not a definition of what it actually is (or was, according to taste). A definition of the Resurrection should point out that it's the return to bodily life of Jesus after his death (crucifixion). Just a single sentence. After that, by all means this material about the importance should go in. PiCo ( talk) 07:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The article should probably mention the fact that many theologians have tradtionally explained the resurrection by a supernatural action of the Holy Spirit. In the divine Trinity, there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If the Son, who is physically incarnated, happens to die for some tragic reason, then it is possible to explain an eventual resurrection of the Son through the logic of trinitarian doctrine. Hence, the Holy Spirit, who is the Incarnator and the Paraclete, might also deserve to be given the title of Resurrector for his soteriological role in the Resurrection of Jesus. ADM ( talk) 20:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Can you give an example of such a theologian? That might be helpful here. Jacor2 ( talk) 14:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
According to international scholar Thorwald Lorenzen, the first Easter led to a shift in emphasis from faith "in God" to faith "in Christ." Today, Lorenzen finds "a strange silence about the resurrection in many pulpits." He writes that among some Christians, minsters, and professors, it seems to have to have become "a cause for embarrassment or the topic of apologetics."
I deleted this for two reasons. One, the second part is just the man's opinion on things, given without any evidence other than that he "finds" it to be true. He says he finds it to be true in many churches, which is a weasel word as many could mean anything from two to all but one. I personally don't go to Church much but when I do I never experience people silent or embarrassed about the resurrection of Jesus. Any Church that recites the Nicene Creed says they believe in the resurrection every week. But again, that's just my personal experience, as his experiences are just his.
His first statement is an actual argument about what belief in the resurrection did to religion in general and, if any actual arguments are included with it, could be put into the article. However his second statement is clearly just his personal opinion given with no evidence to back it up whatsoever. No polls, no anecdotes, just his statement that he finds it to be true, which makes it just the personal opinion of one theologian. If you guys find his point interesting, so be it, but that does not mean it should be included in an encyclopedia article on the subject with out any kind of evidence or argument. What if some other theologian found it to be generally true that the opposite was the case and that the majority of Churches and Christians boldly proclaim the resurrection? Without any other evidence than that being his personal opinion it would be wrong to include that as well as then we're just saying "is so" and "is not" back and forth without any side making any actual arguments. I therefore think that this section should be eliminated or changed to include any actual evidence he has to make his case. Roy Brumback ( talk) 19:50, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
We're not talking about theology, that's the whole point. He isn't making a theological argument, he's stating his opinion about what other people think and feel, which would make this a psychological issue or an issue for statistical polling, not theology. Thus his theological expertise has zero bearing on the issue he's addressing Roy Brumback ( talk) 01:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
So what's yours? Roy Brumback ( talk) 23:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a current dispute about the main image on this page. The repeated use of Bloch images as the leading image on many pages seems to me to be against NPOV given that it has a clear association with the Mormon church, as Wikipedia itself states: "For over 40 years the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made heavy use of Carl Bloch's paintings, mostly from the Frederiksborg Palace collection, in its church buildings and printed media."
I think a non-Bloch image will be more neutral. User Reaver Flash has already crossed the 3 revert line on this, adding Bloch. Suggestions will be appreciated from 3rd parties, else I will seek an official 3rd opinion. History2007 ( talk) 22:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
As I've said before, Bloch is not even LDS. Furthermore, there are hundreds of images on wikipedia that were used by EXCLUSIVELY by the Catholic Church. The art style is exclusive to the catholic church as well. Should THOSE images be removed as well? Flash 05:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
I'm not "attached" to Bloch, I just think it's ridiculous to remove images based on some "association". And you're the one avoiding my point. There are hundreds of images that are DIRECTLY associated with the Catholic Church used on wikipedia. And you want to exclude paintings even though the artist is not LDS and the art style is not based on LDS either. There are hundreds of images that are strongly associated with the Catholic Church used on wikipedia, when as you say it, many more "neutral" images can be used. Should THEY be removed as well? Flash 00:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
Furthermore, the Catholic church has promoted artists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_Church_artists
The Vatican has commissioned and paid many artists, which is "promoting" them. Flash 03:32, 22 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
Only YOU had a problem with Carl Bloch the artist. I don't appreciate you systematically removing Carl Bloch images from wikipedia just as I'm sure you will not appreciate me removing William Adolphe Bougoureau images from wikipedia. I don't understand what is your reason for removing Bloch images. First you said it was LDS, then you've moved away from that. Flash 04:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
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Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on Resurrection of Jesus/Archive 7 and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here. |
Opinion: Unless the Bloch image either (a) depicts a particular sectarian point of view or (b) is so clearly identified with some particular sect that the average reader would recognize it as such, I do not think that it is objectionable under NPOV, nor do I feel that the frequent or common use of any particular artist's work as the lead image is objectionable unless there is a clear effort to merchandise the artist or unless (a) or (b) applies. What is of importance is whether the image improves the article by illustrating it or some element of it. If it does that, then as between images portraying essentially the same content, the image which has the highest conceptual clarity and visual clarity should be used. Having set those principles, I believe that the Bloch image is not objectionable for NPOV, but the Raphael is nonetheless the better image because it is visually a sharper image, but even more so because it is not clear in the Bloch image that Jesus is coming out of a tomb - it could be any doorway. The Raphael image isn't entirely desirable, either, because it diverges from the typical Gospel images (the rolling door, the cavelike tomb), but at least it is clearly a grave or tomb. In short, the Raphael image is better in both its conceptual clarity and its visual clarity and as between those two images should be the image used. A better image might well, however, be found than either of these. |
What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.— TRANSPORTERMAN ( TALK) 05:42, 22 December 2009 (UTC) |
Thank you TransporterMan.
The response is that the Raphael, although better, "isn't entirely desirable".
Furthermore, do you accept the opinion that there is no "situation" with Bloch? Flash 20:20, 22 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
I am perfectly fine with not using the Bloch image. However, there are better images available. Flash 00:34, 23 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
The resurrection is often depicted this way. The tomb is visible behind the angel. The ascension is different in the sense that there are usually a lot more disciples depicted. Flash 01:03, 23 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
I would like to read more about historians' opinions about what might factually have happened after Jesus was Crucified, assuming no specific Christian beliefs -- this is neither addressed in the Crucifixion of Jesus article, nor here, not anywhere, as far as I can see. If one is not Christian and is a skeptic, rationalist, but believes Jesus existed, what are the alternatives to a belief in literal resurrection of a "glorious", renewewed and all-powerful body (that later ascended to Heaven). I am familiar with, for example, the theory someone stole the body, or Crossan's theory that it was thrown in a common grave and/or eaten by animals and birds - and then some people claim he resuscitated and lived out his life somewhere... maybe someone more knowledgeable could add something? Orlando098 ( talk) 01:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Why did you remove the link I added which was very relevant on the Resurrection of Jesus? It was just removed without any notice? Humilityisfine ( talk) 23:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
It has been published countless of times and been read by millions of people during the ages. There is no "fanciful lore" more than the bible. What wiki rules do you follow when you claim that it must be biblical facts? Your personal opinion is evident in this reversion you made. Must I contact the wiki jury in order to make you change it back? Peace Humilityisfine ( talk) 00:12, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
This medievil sourcebook is a book composing several books in one. I am no spammer. Why don't you check the links I added instead of accusing me off linkspamming? How can these persons remove my work when I followed the wiki rules perfectly? Should I contact the wiki committe jury to resolve myself of these charges? I also linked to specific lives of saints which you removed without any reason whatsoever? What is your reason for telling that I am a linkspammer? Saying I am a linkspammer don't make me one when I linked every single article I read on that page to the relevant wiki article. Check it yourself. Peace and Please help! Humilityisfine ( talk) 00:25, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Could it be that I read it there? NO, that's impossible:) Don't know if any one can help me here. here. Humilityisfine ( talk) 02:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I read there frequently. And if I find something that have a wiki article, I like others to be able to read it, simple as that. Should I tell others in the talkpage to add a link from that site since I am banned or the site is banned in some way, I dont understand fully what happened? Can I add links myself after I have gotten consent from the talkpage? How long should one wait for consent? Will someone always answer me on the talkpage? Please help and advice me so i wont break your rules again. Thank you. Humilityisfine ( talk) 03:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Could you answer me about if Im banned somehow or if i banned the sitein some way? I thought I was acting in accordance with your rules. I wonder if anyone even watched what I linked to. Oh well. I am here to try to help others find relevant material that goes more in depth than the specific article they read. Is this not a contribution? How many answers must I await from admins or others before adding anything? Peace Humilityisfine ( talk) 04:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
There is a new section on a physical theory of resurrection via a discussion of atomic elements. I think it is pretty clearly within WP:Fringe but comments from others will be appreciated. If the door opens to that a hole pile of other fringe items will fly out towards this article. Comments will be appreciated. Thanks. History2007 ( talk) 18:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I've added this sentence to the opening of the second para of the Background section:
As you can see, it's from a reliable academic source, and is relevant to the subject as a lead-in to the Hellenistic-period Jewish belief in afterlife and resurrection.
I'd also like to take this section a little further - there was quite a lot of discussion in late-period Judaism on this subject, and there's far more that can be said to put the Christian belief into its cultural perspective. PiCo ( talk) 23:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Comment: I have no idea what you guys are arguing about, and it does not seem a big deal. Why all this heated debate? History2007 ( talk) 08:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
PiCo should add the material. Out of deference to those who don't like it, it should say, "According to so-and-so," It's not perfect, but it's a compromise that's "nuanced," and Ari says. Then Ari can cite Wright as saying that Jesus' resurrection after three days bears no significant resemblance to myths of that time or place. Leadwind ( talk) 16:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
This article needs a good deal of work. It's piecemeal, and it doesn't use the best sources. I did a lot of work on it, but there's plenty more to do. Leadwind ( talk) 16:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
An editor restored this text regarding reference to Jesus' resurrection in 1 Corinthians:
Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, "This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,"<ref>Hans Von Campenhausen, "The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb," in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44</ref> whilst A. M. Hunter said, "The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony. It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability."<ref>Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100</ref>
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. These two authors are making the extraordinary claim that Jesus rose from the dead, but they are neither of them extraordinary, or even contemporary, sources. If we need to go back 40 years to find unremarkable scholars to say this, then let's not say it at all. Leadwind ( talk) 03:25, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
So what is becoming clear is that there are a whole pile of authors/historians/commentators etc. who have specific (and often incompatible) views on the historicity of the resurrection, call them pro/con/decided/undecided/whatever. Are the views of most of them who are not total jokes (like the Tipler item above that was deleted) eventually going to have to get mentioned? Probably so. It seems clear that there is a lot of interest in discussing the historicity of the resurrection, and that it is in fact a topic unto itself, and as I mentioned above in April 2006 it became an article on its own, then got merged with crucifixion that got absorbed elsewere and then back here. I think the best way is to simply populate the page Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus that already exists and redirects here, so the discussion can take place at length with almost all major authors given a few paragraphs. Then we have a main here that refers to that. And it may take 200 keystrokes to do that and 2,000 keystrokes to discuss it here. History2007 ( talk) 06:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't seem to have any structure. Take a look. It bounces around from paragraph to paragraph. I'd have put it in chronological order, but I want to be sensitive to those editors who wish I would just stop already. How about we put the Origin of the Narrative section into chronological order? That would be kerygma, Paul, Gospels. That gives you virtually the whole NT narrative. Leadwind ( talk) 04:18, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Just a few ideas that I have for the article:
-- Ari ( talk) 06:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I issued a WP:Battleground warning to Leadwind on his talk page and I think the unnecessary tagging he is performing on the intro, challenging that there is a discussion of historicity is unconstructive. I think it is clear that there is a discussion of historicity and there is no need to tag that as a disputed fact and start an edit war, given that the same paragraphs has references that discuss historicity. I think the tag should be removed and he should take heed of the warnings issued. History2007 ( talk) 15:32, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I think this section has missed its turn, searching for direction. Exactly what does the Shroud have to do with the resurrection? The Shroud could be there, sans resurrection. The Shroud has zero, zero evidence of resurrection. And it is the most controversial artifact in history, so what does it buy in this article? The Christian traditions, as well as the theology of redemption, and Ari's suggestions above need work - but this avenue does not lead there. History2007 ( talk) 00:25, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
If the Shroud is really the cloth in which the body of Jesus was buried, then it's evidence that he died; it is not evidence that he was resurrected. PiCo ( talk) 23:03, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Conclusion: I think we have an agreement that the Shroud material will become one sentence or two sentences at most. If so, will someone do that please so it does not look like I butchered it myself. Thanks. History2007 ( talk) 08:40, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Pico: The more I look at this, the more I see the need for rewriting. In fact, question to everyone: Why are the events duplicated from the rest of Wikipedia in such detail? And many are from the resurrection appearances not resurrection. I think those need a serious trim. History2007 ( talk) 15:43, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Isn't it the case that Christians worship on Sunday because that's the day of the week on which God raised Jesus from the dead? If so, that information belongs here. Even the unchurched associate Sunday with worship, and the resurrection seems to be the reason why. Leadwind ( talk) 13:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Explaining my removable of this category, there are multiple reasons that the resurrection of Christ can't be called 'mythology'.
(all taken from http://www.riversoflife.co.uk/Resurrection-evidence/the-resurrection-story-is-a-myth.html) ross nixon 01:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Any source has to be considered a Reliable Source before it can be used. The Riversoflife apologist site does not meet that criteria. -- Havermayer ( talk) 05:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I am changing the references to Peter the apostle for the quotes from the first epistle of Peter. These are changed to simply reference 1 Peter since most modern scholars do not believe that this book was actually written by Peter the apostle. In keeping with a neutral point of view just referencing the scriptural reference with a link to the 1 Peter article is best used here. Allenciox ( talk) 17:20, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Most modern secular scholars do not think that Jesus rose from the dead. This view is entirely lacking from the article. We need some of these critical sources in the article. Here is an example source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9781444327946.ch18/summary 69.86.225.27 ( talk) 17:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Still, it would be wise to get away from the heavy reliance on direct references to the bible and use instead the many good academic commentaries - that way you'll get some critical (in the good sense) insight into what the bible says. PiCo ( talk) 06:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I have always been confused by the statement "on the third day He rose again". Again suggests that He had risen previously one or more times. Why "again"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.126.168 ( talk) 12:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
In this article about Jesus' resurrection, only non-believers of sorts are purported to not literally believe in the post crucifixion live appearing of Jesus. But most Christians in my family and social network would accept that resurrection in the biological sense likely did not happen. Apparently, many Dutch laymen and students of Christian religion, believe that the resurrection is a metaphor expressing the strength of the bond between Jesus and his disciples and friends, inducing experiences of his followers as if Jesus appeared to them alive. For many modern Christians such an explanation would not diminish the value of the new testament, only increase it, because it takes away the strain of difficult to dispute scientific ideas about live and death.
One seriously Christian friend of mine explained this contradiction as believing in resurrection with your heart, while an other part of you knows that factually it didn't happen in the literal sense. For her, this contradiction only increases the intensity of her Christianity, while leaving undisputed her understanding about the physical world. I think that, at least in modern Europe, this is, also amongst Christians, a very common view of the resurrection. So I think the article could include a line or two about different views taken by different Christians about how literally the resurrection happened. Pieter Smit. Pieter Felix Smit ( talk) 22:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Coming across this article for the first time, I'm rather surprised at the POV issue here. I've added some passages and cited them all. I saw one revert while doing so—which violated WP:PRESERVE in a big way—and I suspect that may be a "sign" of things to come. Before reverting any of these properly sourced edits, please first explain how any of them do not meet the requirements in WP:RS. And, regardless of his own POV (as if the writers of the Bible and the other religious sources in the references do not have a POV), he was an evangelical minister for 19 years with a degree in theology. I think that provides some qualifications on his part. Thanks. -- Airborne84 ( talk) 03:49, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
RE: Further opinions: I think Harizotoh9 is correct on both counts: 1. Barker is not a scholar, and his work is not WP:RS. I had never heard of him until now, but it seems that maybe he can play the piano, but a scholar he is not. One would be lowering the standards of Wikipedia by using him. 2. There are far better sources than him. e.g. Bart Ehrman as stated above
Now, regarding the general statement that the Resurrection is not a "historical event", what is the big deal? The article starts by saying that it is a "Christian belief". In general "supernatural claims" be they the Resurrection of Jesus in the New Testament or the resurrection of a widow's dead son (1 Kings 17:17–24) by Elijah in the Hebrew Bible are not considered "historical" in a secular encyclopedia. They are to be presented as teachings and religious beliefs, not events. This is unlike episodes such as the Baptism of Jesus (excluding the dove, etc.) which are considered historical by scholars (via correlation with other sources), regardless of any belief in the divinity of Jesus, or his teachings, etc. So Barker brings nothing new to the party except a lowering of standards. History2007 ( talk) 14:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
Shouldn't something about Deedat's "Crucifixion or Crucifiction" be mentioned here somewhere? [1] It's a study by a muslim scholar of the bible. Faro0485 ( talk) 06:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
The Book of Mormon has no historical value. Its origin is unknown. Its history is demonstrably false (i.e., native Americans are not tribes of Israel). This should be removed.
You might as well quote what the moonies think about the resurrection as evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.64.30 ( talk) 07:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
What happened afterwards? Someone should post a link or start a new paragraph
24.98.47.141 ( talk) 01:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
This link was removed with the pretext "Myths take several generations to take hold". This assertion, if it were true (and it isn't, as analytical psychology has repeatedly demonstrated -- new myths can take hold within a single mind, in a single lifetime), is a non-sequitur to the article content, which discusses the archetypal dynamics of the Jesus resurrection story. This link should stay, as the article it links to contributes important insights to the psychological dynamics of the resurrection, and why it is that the story, as told in the Bible, has persisted for millenia despite inconclusive verifiable evidence of its literal historicity. Davigoli ( talk) 17:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Although Christianity is commonly described as the religion of the Resurrection, there is an older tradition that places more emphasis on the dogma of the Incarnation, hence the title religion of the Incarnation. This is very much apparent when reading the works of the Church Fathers, such as Cyril of Alexandria, who mentioned the Incarnation when debating against Arians in order to prove the divinity of Christ. It could therefore be argued that the original apostles already believed in Jesus's divinity before his crucifixion/resurrection because they had been taught about the incarnation doctrine. ADM ( talk) 21:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Please fix this: "It is, of course, critically important whether or not Jesus did actually rise from the dead: for if he did, then his teachings are worthy of serious consideration. " -- 200.226.152.206 ( talk) 05:55, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
Skepticism is not NPOV. I made a couple of edits to provide a more-neutral POV, and they were removed because someone considered them "unsourced and POV." Skepticism is a POV. For an article to be NPOV, it must fairly represent all views. In the section "Jesus Resurrection," A fanciful account from the "Gospel of Peter" is presented alongside a reference to the canonical Gospels. This juxtaposition implies that the accounts are on more or less equal footing. This is not an objective POV. Whatever, one's view of the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus, he or she must admit that documents such as the Gospel of Peter have a very different quality than the four canonical Gospels.
In the section "Tomb Discovery," there is the following statement: "However, such an argument has an obvious flaw: the very fact that people consider the story to be 'self-authenticating' due to these elements provides a motive for their inclusion." First of all, this is not NPOV. Second, it misses the point of the argument. The point is that it is extremely unlikely that anyone at that time would have invented such an account. Even those who were reporting history frequently embellished the facts to make their patrons or friends appear more heroic. It is a very modern idea to design an account so that it contains unflattering elements to make it appear authentic even though it is fabricated. The above statement is clearly not NPOV and commits an anachronistic fallacy. RodPickett ( talk) 21:39, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
This sentence/phrase "Some contemporary scholars still express doubts about the historicity of the resurrection accounts and have debated their origin" seems to take a NPOV and reads as if the author believes in the resurrection of Jesus. Essentially, to me, the sentence reads as if most people, by now, accept the resurrection of Jesus as historical fact and that only some small minority of people think it didn't happen. (edit by IP 95, etc.)
Recently, a user has changed the definition of the resurrection (which is an event), to a belief. Such a change is inaccurate and no valid reason has been given. ReaverFlash ( talk) 15:22, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
The first sentence currently reads: "According to Christians, the resurrection of Jesus, following his death as result of crucifixion, is the event upon which Christian doctrine, ritual and theology is based." It seems to keep changing every few hours, but basically that's the sentence.
I humbly submit that this isn't what the first sentence should be. It's a statement of why the Resurrection is important, not a definition of what it actually is (or was, according to taste). A definition of the Resurrection should point out that it's the return to bodily life of Jesus after his death (crucifixion). Just a single sentence. After that, by all means this material about the importance should go in. PiCo ( talk) 07:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
The article should probably mention the fact that many theologians have tradtionally explained the resurrection by a supernatural action of the Holy Spirit. In the divine Trinity, there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. If the Son, who is physically incarnated, happens to die for some tragic reason, then it is possible to explain an eventual resurrection of the Son through the logic of trinitarian doctrine. Hence, the Holy Spirit, who is the Incarnator and the Paraclete, might also deserve to be given the title of Resurrector for his soteriological role in the Resurrection of Jesus. ADM ( talk) 20:21, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
Can you give an example of such a theologian? That might be helpful here. Jacor2 ( talk) 14:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
According to international scholar Thorwald Lorenzen, the first Easter led to a shift in emphasis from faith "in God" to faith "in Christ." Today, Lorenzen finds "a strange silence about the resurrection in many pulpits." He writes that among some Christians, minsters, and professors, it seems to have to have become "a cause for embarrassment or the topic of apologetics."
I deleted this for two reasons. One, the second part is just the man's opinion on things, given without any evidence other than that he "finds" it to be true. He says he finds it to be true in many churches, which is a weasel word as many could mean anything from two to all but one. I personally don't go to Church much but when I do I never experience people silent or embarrassed about the resurrection of Jesus. Any Church that recites the Nicene Creed says they believe in the resurrection every week. But again, that's just my personal experience, as his experiences are just his.
His first statement is an actual argument about what belief in the resurrection did to religion in general and, if any actual arguments are included with it, could be put into the article. However his second statement is clearly just his personal opinion given with no evidence to back it up whatsoever. No polls, no anecdotes, just his statement that he finds it to be true, which makes it just the personal opinion of one theologian. If you guys find his point interesting, so be it, but that does not mean it should be included in an encyclopedia article on the subject with out any kind of evidence or argument. What if some other theologian found it to be generally true that the opposite was the case and that the majority of Churches and Christians boldly proclaim the resurrection? Without any other evidence than that being his personal opinion it would be wrong to include that as well as then we're just saying "is so" and "is not" back and forth without any side making any actual arguments. I therefore think that this section should be eliminated or changed to include any actual evidence he has to make his case. Roy Brumback ( talk) 19:50, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
We're not talking about theology, that's the whole point. He isn't making a theological argument, he's stating his opinion about what other people think and feel, which would make this a psychological issue or an issue for statistical polling, not theology. Thus his theological expertise has zero bearing on the issue he's addressing Roy Brumback ( talk) 01:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
So what's yours? Roy Brumback ( talk) 23:30, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
There is a current dispute about the main image on this page. The repeated use of Bloch images as the leading image on many pages seems to me to be against NPOV given that it has a clear association with the Mormon church, as Wikipedia itself states: "For over 40 years the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made heavy use of Carl Bloch's paintings, mostly from the Frederiksborg Palace collection, in its church buildings and printed media."
I think a non-Bloch image will be more neutral. User Reaver Flash has already crossed the 3 revert line on this, adding Bloch. Suggestions will be appreciated from 3rd parties, else I will seek an official 3rd opinion. History2007 ( talk) 22:02, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
As I've said before, Bloch is not even LDS. Furthermore, there are hundreds of images on wikipedia that were used by EXCLUSIVELY by the Catholic Church. The art style is exclusive to the catholic church as well. Should THOSE images be removed as well? Flash 05:42, 20 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
I'm not "attached" to Bloch, I just think it's ridiculous to remove images based on some "association". And you're the one avoiding my point. There are hundreds of images that are DIRECTLY associated with the Catholic Church used on wikipedia. And you want to exclude paintings even though the artist is not LDS and the art style is not based on LDS either. There are hundreds of images that are strongly associated with the Catholic Church used on wikipedia, when as you say it, many more "neutral" images can be used. Should THEY be removed as well? Flash 00:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
Furthermore, the Catholic church has promoted artists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_Church_artists
The Vatican has commissioned and paid many artists, which is "promoting" them. Flash 03:32, 22 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
Only YOU had a problem with Carl Bloch the artist. I don't appreciate you systematically removing Carl Bloch images from wikipedia just as I'm sure you will not appreciate me removing William Adolphe Bougoureau images from wikipedia. I don't understand what is your reason for removing Bloch images. First you said it was LDS, then you've moved away from that. Flash 04:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
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Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on Resurrection of Jesus/Archive 7 and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here. |
Opinion: Unless the Bloch image either (a) depicts a particular sectarian point of view or (b) is so clearly identified with some particular sect that the average reader would recognize it as such, I do not think that it is objectionable under NPOV, nor do I feel that the frequent or common use of any particular artist's work as the lead image is objectionable unless there is a clear effort to merchandise the artist or unless (a) or (b) applies. What is of importance is whether the image improves the article by illustrating it or some element of it. If it does that, then as between images portraying essentially the same content, the image which has the highest conceptual clarity and visual clarity should be used. Having set those principles, I believe that the Bloch image is not objectionable for NPOV, but the Raphael is nonetheless the better image because it is visually a sharper image, but even more so because it is not clear in the Bloch image that Jesus is coming out of a tomb - it could be any doorway. The Raphael image isn't entirely desirable, either, because it diverges from the typical Gospel images (the rolling door, the cavelike tomb), but at least it is clearly a grave or tomb. In short, the Raphael image is better in both its conceptual clarity and its visual clarity and as between those two images should be the image used. A better image might well, however, be found than either of these. |
What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.— TRANSPORTERMAN ( TALK) 05:42, 22 December 2009 (UTC) |
Thank you TransporterMan.
The response is that the Raphael, although better, "isn't entirely desirable".
Furthermore, do you accept the opinion that there is no "situation" with Bloch? Flash 20:20, 22 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
I am perfectly fine with not using the Bloch image. However, there are better images available. Flash 00:34, 23 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
The resurrection is often depicted this way. The tomb is visible behind the angel. The ascension is different in the sense that there are usually a lot more disciples depicted. Flash 01:03, 23 December 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReaverFlash ( talk • contribs)
I would like to read more about historians' opinions about what might factually have happened after Jesus was Crucified, assuming no specific Christian beliefs -- this is neither addressed in the Crucifixion of Jesus article, nor here, not anywhere, as far as I can see. If one is not Christian and is a skeptic, rationalist, but believes Jesus existed, what are the alternatives to a belief in literal resurrection of a "glorious", renewewed and all-powerful body (that later ascended to Heaven). I am familiar with, for example, the theory someone stole the body, or Crossan's theory that it was thrown in a common grave and/or eaten by animals and birds - and then some people claim he resuscitated and lived out his life somewhere... maybe someone more knowledgeable could add something? Orlando098 ( talk) 01:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Why did you remove the link I added which was very relevant on the Resurrection of Jesus? It was just removed without any notice? Humilityisfine ( talk) 23:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
It has been published countless of times and been read by millions of people during the ages. There is no "fanciful lore" more than the bible. What wiki rules do you follow when you claim that it must be biblical facts? Your personal opinion is evident in this reversion you made. Must I contact the wiki jury in order to make you change it back? Peace Humilityisfine ( talk) 00:12, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
This medievil sourcebook is a book composing several books in one. I am no spammer. Why don't you check the links I added instead of accusing me off linkspamming? How can these persons remove my work when I followed the wiki rules perfectly? Should I contact the wiki committe jury to resolve myself of these charges? I also linked to specific lives of saints which you removed without any reason whatsoever? What is your reason for telling that I am a linkspammer? Saying I am a linkspammer don't make me one when I linked every single article I read on that page to the relevant wiki article. Check it yourself. Peace and Please help! Humilityisfine ( talk) 00:25, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
Could it be that I read it there? NO, that's impossible:) Don't know if any one can help me here. here. Humilityisfine ( talk) 02:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
I read there frequently. And if I find something that have a wiki article, I like others to be able to read it, simple as that. Should I tell others in the talkpage to add a link from that site since I am banned or the site is banned in some way, I dont understand fully what happened? Can I add links myself after I have gotten consent from the talkpage? How long should one wait for consent? Will someone always answer me on the talkpage? Please help and advice me so i wont break your rules again. Thank you. Humilityisfine ( talk) 03:27, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Could you answer me about if Im banned somehow or if i banned the sitein some way? I thought I was acting in accordance with your rules. I wonder if anyone even watched what I linked to. Oh well. I am here to try to help others find relevant material that goes more in depth than the specific article they read. Is this not a contribution? How many answers must I await from admins or others before adding anything? Peace Humilityisfine ( talk) 04:01, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
There is a new section on a physical theory of resurrection via a discussion of atomic elements. I think it is pretty clearly within WP:Fringe but comments from others will be appreciated. If the door opens to that a hole pile of other fringe items will fly out towards this article. Comments will be appreciated. Thanks. History2007 ( talk) 18:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
I've added this sentence to the opening of the second para of the Background section:
As you can see, it's from a reliable academic source, and is relevant to the subject as a lead-in to the Hellenistic-period Jewish belief in afterlife and resurrection.
I'd also like to take this section a little further - there was quite a lot of discussion in late-period Judaism on this subject, and there's far more that can be said to put the Christian belief into its cultural perspective. PiCo ( talk) 23:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Comment: I have no idea what you guys are arguing about, and it does not seem a big deal. Why all this heated debate? History2007 ( talk) 08:15, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
PiCo should add the material. Out of deference to those who don't like it, it should say, "According to so-and-so," It's not perfect, but it's a compromise that's "nuanced," and Ari says. Then Ari can cite Wright as saying that Jesus' resurrection after three days bears no significant resemblance to myths of that time or place. Leadwind ( talk) 16:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
This article needs a good deal of work. It's piecemeal, and it doesn't use the best sources. I did a lot of work on it, but there's plenty more to do. Leadwind ( talk) 16:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
An editor restored this text regarding reference to Jesus' resurrection in 1 Corinthians:
Concerning this creed, Campenhausen wrote, "This account meets all the demands of historical reliability that could possibly be made of such a text,"<ref>Hans Von Campenhausen, "The Events of Easter and the Empty Tomb," in ''Tradition and Life in the Church'' (Philadelphia: Fortress, 1968) p. 44</ref> whilst A. M. Hunter said, "The passage therefore preserves uniquely early and verifiable testimony. It meets every reasonable demand of historical reliability."<ref>Archibald Hunter, ''Works and Words of Jesus'' (1973) p. 100</ref>
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. These two authors are making the extraordinary claim that Jesus rose from the dead, but they are neither of them extraordinary, or even contemporary, sources. If we need to go back 40 years to find unremarkable scholars to say this, then let's not say it at all. Leadwind ( talk) 03:25, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
So what is becoming clear is that there are a whole pile of authors/historians/commentators etc. who have specific (and often incompatible) views on the historicity of the resurrection, call them pro/con/decided/undecided/whatever. Are the views of most of them who are not total jokes (like the Tipler item above that was deleted) eventually going to have to get mentioned? Probably so. It seems clear that there is a lot of interest in discussing the historicity of the resurrection, and that it is in fact a topic unto itself, and as I mentioned above in April 2006 it became an article on its own, then got merged with crucifixion that got absorbed elsewere and then back here. I think the best way is to simply populate the page Historicity of the Resurrection of Jesus that already exists and redirects here, so the discussion can take place at length with almost all major authors given a few paragraphs. Then we have a main here that refers to that. And it may take 200 keystrokes to do that and 2,000 keystrokes to discuss it here. History2007 ( talk) 06:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
It doesn't seem to have any structure. Take a look. It bounces around from paragraph to paragraph. I'd have put it in chronological order, but I want to be sensitive to those editors who wish I would just stop already. How about we put the Origin of the Narrative section into chronological order? That would be kerygma, Paul, Gospels. That gives you virtually the whole NT narrative. Leadwind ( talk) 04:18, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Just a few ideas that I have for the article:
-- Ari ( talk) 06:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I issued a WP:Battleground warning to Leadwind on his talk page and I think the unnecessary tagging he is performing on the intro, challenging that there is a discussion of historicity is unconstructive. I think it is clear that there is a discussion of historicity and there is no need to tag that as a disputed fact and start an edit war, given that the same paragraphs has references that discuss historicity. I think the tag should be removed and he should take heed of the warnings issued. History2007 ( talk) 15:32, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
I think this section has missed its turn, searching for direction. Exactly what does the Shroud have to do with the resurrection? The Shroud could be there, sans resurrection. The Shroud has zero, zero evidence of resurrection. And it is the most controversial artifact in history, so what does it buy in this article? The Christian traditions, as well as the theology of redemption, and Ari's suggestions above need work - but this avenue does not lead there. History2007 ( talk) 00:25, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
If the Shroud is really the cloth in which the body of Jesus was buried, then it's evidence that he died; it is not evidence that he was resurrected. PiCo ( talk) 23:03, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Conclusion: I think we have an agreement that the Shroud material will become one sentence or two sentences at most. If so, will someone do that please so it does not look like I butchered it myself. Thanks. History2007 ( talk) 08:40, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
Pico: The more I look at this, the more I see the need for rewriting. In fact, question to everyone: Why are the events duplicated from the rest of Wikipedia in such detail? And many are from the resurrection appearances not resurrection. I think those need a serious trim. History2007 ( talk) 15:43, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Isn't it the case that Christians worship on Sunday because that's the day of the week on which God raised Jesus from the dead? If so, that information belongs here. Even the unchurched associate Sunday with worship, and the resurrection seems to be the reason why. Leadwind ( talk) 13:54, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Explaining my removable of this category, there are multiple reasons that the resurrection of Christ can't be called 'mythology'.
(all taken from http://www.riversoflife.co.uk/Resurrection-evidence/the-resurrection-story-is-a-myth.html) ross nixon 01:57, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
Any source has to be considered a Reliable Source before it can be used. The Riversoflife apologist site does not meet that criteria. -- Havermayer ( talk) 05:11, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
I am changing the references to Peter the apostle for the quotes from the first epistle of Peter. These are changed to simply reference 1 Peter since most modern scholars do not believe that this book was actually written by Peter the apostle. In keeping with a neutral point of view just referencing the scriptural reference with a link to the 1 Peter article is best used here. Allenciox ( talk) 17:20, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
Most modern secular scholars do not think that Jesus rose from the dead. This view is entirely lacking from the article. We need some of these critical sources in the article. Here is an example source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9781444327946.ch18/summary 69.86.225.27 ( talk) 17:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
Still, it would be wise to get away from the heavy reliance on direct references to the bible and use instead the many good academic commentaries - that way you'll get some critical (in the good sense) insight into what the bible says. PiCo ( talk) 06:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
I have always been confused by the statement "on the third day He rose again". Again suggests that He had risen previously one or more times. Why "again"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.18.126.168 ( talk) 12:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
In this article about Jesus' resurrection, only non-believers of sorts are purported to not literally believe in the post crucifixion live appearing of Jesus. But most Christians in my family and social network would accept that resurrection in the biological sense likely did not happen. Apparently, many Dutch laymen and students of Christian religion, believe that the resurrection is a metaphor expressing the strength of the bond between Jesus and his disciples and friends, inducing experiences of his followers as if Jesus appeared to them alive. For many modern Christians such an explanation would not diminish the value of the new testament, only increase it, because it takes away the strain of difficult to dispute scientific ideas about live and death.
One seriously Christian friend of mine explained this contradiction as believing in resurrection with your heart, while an other part of you knows that factually it didn't happen in the literal sense. For her, this contradiction only increases the intensity of her Christianity, while leaving undisputed her understanding about the physical world. I think that, at least in modern Europe, this is, also amongst Christians, a very common view of the resurrection. So I think the article could include a line or two about different views taken by different Christians about how literally the resurrection happened. Pieter Smit. Pieter Felix Smit ( talk) 22:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
Coming across this article for the first time, I'm rather surprised at the POV issue here. I've added some passages and cited them all. I saw one revert while doing so—which violated WP:PRESERVE in a big way—and I suspect that may be a "sign" of things to come. Before reverting any of these properly sourced edits, please first explain how any of them do not meet the requirements in WP:RS. And, regardless of his own POV (as if the writers of the Bible and the other religious sources in the references do not have a POV), he was an evangelical minister for 19 years with a degree in theology. I think that provides some qualifications on his part. Thanks. -- Airborne84 ( talk) 03:49, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
RE: Further opinions: I think Harizotoh9 is correct on both counts: 1. Barker is not a scholar, and his work is not WP:RS. I had never heard of him until now, but it seems that maybe he can play the piano, but a scholar he is not. One would be lowering the standards of Wikipedia by using him. 2. There are far better sources than him. e.g. Bart Ehrman as stated above
Now, regarding the general statement that the Resurrection is not a "historical event", what is the big deal? The article starts by saying that it is a "Christian belief". In general "supernatural claims" be they the Resurrection of Jesus in the New Testament or the resurrection of a widow's dead son (1 Kings 17:17–24) by Elijah in the Hebrew Bible are not considered "historical" in a secular encyclopedia. They are to be presented as teachings and religious beliefs, not events. This is unlike episodes such as the Baptism of Jesus (excluding the dove, etc.) which are considered historical by scholars (via correlation with other sources), regardless of any belief in the divinity of Jesus, or his teachings, etc. So Barker brings nothing new to the party except a lowering of standards. History2007 ( talk) 14:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)