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There is debate on the talk page to Seventh-Day Adventist Church as to whether that church is Restorationist or Protestant. The Restorationist article says that the Seventh-Day Adventist church was created by Restorationists. I am confused about what the classification should be. Is there anyone who can give a explanation on this topic? After all, this religious database: http://www.religioustolerance.org/sda.htm clearly states that Seventh-Day Adventists are Restorationist. Rob.saberon ( talk) 03:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Rob: Restorationism is a subset of Protestantism. Does that clarify matters for you? 75.71.67.2 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
These require fixing. The listing at the end of the article shows that these are incompletely formatted. Also, it is unclear why a sequence of so many references is required. Can this be shrunk to a few, and properly formatted please. Have a look at Template:Cite book for info. Thanks! Fremte ( talk) 04:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Man this article is awful. Completely written from a prejudicial viewpoint, there is no NPOV here at all. The article makes even the term "restorationism" appear highly pejorative and even demeaning to any sect or denomination that is not decidedly mainstream Protestant or Roman Catholic. This article seems to have a lot of good information but it needs a complete NPOV rewrite. -- Solascriptura 15:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The re-written section on the LDS is not an improvement, in my opinion. I would like to have comments especially by the LDS wikipedians. Doesn't that paragraph express a rather biased, even proselytizing perspective? Whereas, the paragraph it replaces was, in my opinion, neither criticism nor adulation but simply a description appropriate for the article's context. Mkmcconn 19:20, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
That replaced paragraph used to read:
I'm not an LDS member, but I see and agree with your point. I think the previous version was better.
I've reverted the paragraph. The deleted paragraph used to read:
Mkmcconn 14:38, 9 Feb 2004
Most of the sections about religions briefly discuss the history of the religion. But the SDA section has been completely mangled to just say that they don't believe they're restorationists. This doesn't seem appropriate to the article. Also, the new grammar is atrocious. (e.g., "Another words..."?)-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 22:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Religious Tolerance.org classifies Seventh-Day Adventists as Restorationist: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chrrest.htm Rob.saberon ( talk) 23:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
By the addition of the middle ages material, the article is falling apart. With the definition assumed by the new material, will every movement of dissent and reform be called "restorationism"? The new material and lead bury the far more notable 19th century restorationist movements. Please consider a disambiguation page, or a sub-section. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 17:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
(new indent) Scholarly research identifies Restorationism as unaffiliated religious movements that believe that they are restoring pristine, or original Christianity, sometimes referred to as Christian primitivism. What you are talking about in the middle ages has nothing to do with scholarly research and is original research. No references support this being part of Restorationism. If there is not evidence to support your position within two weeks I will delete the material. You are free to start another page to cover your topic, but do not use the term Restorationism; it does not apply and no academic would use such term. I suspect that with further research you will find an appropriate title. -- Storm Rider (talk) 21:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Split of Restorationism (middle ages) is complete I think. Regardless of your belief abuot the exclusivity of the use of the term restorationim as recent only, a check of the references for the section that is now another article will show otherwsie. Some text changes in Restorationism may be required. May I respectfully suggest you review the policy WP:OWN. I find your approach (this is the second time) aggressive Storm Rider. Fremte ( talk) 14:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Restorationist groups frequently consider themselves to be historically unrelated to other branches of Christianity, except prior to that juncture at which the Great Apostasy is thought to have taken place. This belief is depicted for example by the dotted line of the graphic that appears at
Category:Restorationism and treating it as a separate "branch", distinct in some sense from Protestantism, is also widely conventional throughout the wiki.
What is the best way to express this explicitly but very briefly, in the introduction, without introducing an over-generalization? —
Mark (
Mkmcconn)
**
18:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't have time to read all this today - I will later - but it does looks unappetizing. I would just submit the idea for your consideration, that the whole series of articles under 'Restoration' -ist, -ism, Movement, etc. is now quite a mess. It appears that various camps are fighting to 'own' the word. If you've come up with something that appeases everyone that might seem good, but clarity has been the cost. I submit the following for your consideration. The word Restorationist/ ism/ or Restoration Movement, using the word Restoration without a modifier, should only appear in wiki once, one article. Any other article making use of the word should contain a modifier, e.g Stone-Campbell Restoration, Mormon Restoration, Restoration in the Middle Ages. Slofstra ( talk) 14:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I am surprised that Plymouth Brethren are not included as "Restorationists". Is not their doctrine of "The Church in Ruins" and their desire to return to what they saw as "The New Testament Pattern" restorationist ideas? They called out Christians from the denominations, and beseeched them to gather only to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe there are parallels to the Plymouth Brethren movement and the Campbell Church of Christ movement. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
216.171.104.62 (
talk)
12:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
That's not quite an accurate description of Joseph Smith Jr.'s position. Using this as a title is like saying vegetarianism is "A Protest Against McDonalds". What do you all think? -- BenMcLean ( talk) 21:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
We need clear mention of this "position" or modern LDS position. It's not clear in the notes or list of "resoration" churches and positions... why was most of the verbage abt. mormon church removed... NOT logical or practical????
Organist00 (
talk)
05:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC) organist00
There is currently discussion regarding the creation of a work group specifically to deal with articles dealing with Restorationism, among others, here. Any parties interested in working in such a group are welcome to indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter ( talk) 16:48, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This article does not tell a reader (one not already familiar with restorationism) what the churches listed have in common. Is it only that they believe their methods of worship matches with the way the earliest Christians worshiped? Are there any basic beliefs that all the listed groups share? From this article it appears they reject the trinity and yet also believe Christ was the Son of God and that the Holy Spirit must enter into the individual. How can this be true? Nitpyck ( talk) 05:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
In response to Nitpyck, I am not sure I understand your question about what can be true. Are you saying that one cannot believe that Jesus was the Son of God and the Holy Spirit plays a significant part in the lives of disciples and not believe in the Trinity? If so, why do you think these beliefs are not possible outside of the Trinity?-- Storm Rider 16:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Jehovah's Witness is mentioned in passing, but nothing more. Aren't they big enough to deserve a paragraph? Joshuajohanson ( talk) 18:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I believe Jehovah Witness beliefs are closer to Arianism, Michal the Arch Angel being Christ, who is the first created being by God, Their Christology appeared on the scene in the 3rd century. -- Wer2chosen ( talk) 13:10, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Although I am not sure these are reliable, but they do describe what I think of Restorationism:
I just did a quick google to come up with these rather than go through hard copy. Thoughts?-- Storm Rider 23:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
In the section, "Disagreements with Established Churches," I found the following sentence: "Some even claimed the Bible suffered from ancient corruption, which required correction." I think this statement is far too vague. Throughout the so-called "restorationist" movements and other sorts of Christians, there have always been discussions about whether certain English translations of the Bible might be in need of revision. Even the Roman Catholic Church, which could be considered the antithesis of the restoration movement, has periodically issued a variety of translations. If the statement refers to this sort of thing, there is no reason for it to be in the article. But if the article refers to something stronger, like a unique belief in the deep corruption of the Bible text, the only example I know of this is Joseph Smith, who produced his own edition of the Bible with additional material which he believed to have been lost over the centuries. If this is what we're talking about, why don't we just make the statement specific and name him. Mitchell Powell ( talk) 18:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitchell Powell ( talk • contribs) 18:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
This article has seen a series of edits that have de-capitalized the names of a variety of well-know historical groups and movements. The edit comments refer to the Manual of Style. The section of the manual that's referenced says:
I believe these edits misunderstand both the manual of style and the nature of the literature on these movements. The statement "Philosophies, theories, movements, and doctrines do not begin with a capital letter" is qualified with "unless the name derives from a proper noun. . . or has become a proper noun . . ."
The sources cited in this article consistently use terms such as "Protestant Reformation" and "Restoration Movement" as proper nouns. So, for example, lowercase "reformation" can be used to refer to any movement that tries to reform an existing church or other institution. The upper case Protestant Reformation (and often just the "Reformation") describes a particular reform movement from the 16th century. Similarly, many religious movements have had restoration of the primitive church as a goal, and can be described as "restoration movements." But the upper case "Restoration Movement" (a.k.a. the "American Restoration Movement" and the "Stone-Campbell Movement") refers to a particular movement that originated around the turn of the 19th century. Lower case "reformation" and "restoration" are both doctrinal topics rather than specific events; the "Reformation" and the "Restoration Movement" are both specific movements originating in a particular time and place. Both terms are used as proper nouns in the histories that deal with those movements. This is exactly parallel to the example from the MOS of using lower case "republican" to describe a particular type of political thought, and upper case "Republican" to describe a specific party or ideology.
Bottom line, I believe that the standing, consensus usage of capitalizing these terms in this article is fully consistent with the manual of style because it reflects the use of these terms as proper nouns in the academic literature that studies the related movements. EastTN ( talk) 21:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Other examples are easy to think of. The word "pilgrim" is a perfectly good common noun, but we also have the "Pilgrims" who settled Massachusetts; "congregationalist" is a perfectly good lower case noun or adjective describing someone who supports a particular form of church organization, but we also have "Congregationalists" who are members of a particular family of denominations (and who also happen to be lower case "congregationalists"); "presbyterian" is an adjective that can be used to describe a particular form of church organization, but we can also have the "Presbyterian" church; and lower case "catholic" simply means "universal," but we can also ask "is the Pope Catholic?" It's foolish - and ruins the style of the article - to mechanically say "is it a movement - then by golly, we're gonna use a lower-case noun" without stopping to ask "is it a description of the movement or the name of the movement?" (i.e., is it a common noun or a proper noun?) EastTN ( talk) 21:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I've been wondering if it would make sense to rename this article. The current name, "Restorationism," doesn't provide any indication that the article is dealing with Christianity (or even religion, for that matter). Moving it to something like "Restorationism (Christian Primitivism)" would make that clear, while also giving the reader a better indication of what the article is talking about. A side benefit would be opening up the article name "Restorationism" for a potential future disambiguation article that could distinguish between this and Christian Restorationism, "restorationism" as Universal reconciliation and perhaps other uses of the term outside Christianity. EastTN ( talk) 00:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Support (already done) revert move to Restorationism (Christian primitivism) - this might call for a RM but for the time being Restorationism is better supported than "Christian primitivism", so should be in the title. There may not be a clear title for this as both terms get used.
In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Though offhand it seems to me "Christian primitivism" is clearer, I am convinced by the source arguments that "Restorationism" is more widespread overall. However, the posts that rightly objected to the synonymy (see e.g. WP:AND, WP:PRECISE) have not been answered. Further, this article is the WP:PRIME topic for the search term "restorationism", and all the other topics there (if they are not subtopics here) are secondary. The WP:WPDAB solution is clear: move "restorationism" to "restorationism (disambiguation)", and move this page to "restorationism". The first half is noncontroversial and nonadmin so I did it, and then requested a technical deletion to ensure the second half can be done. The concerns in the above thread are, according to standard practice, sufficiently addressed by the routine hatnote that already appears on this page. In short, this would be undoing the 2010 move because it "solved a problem that didn't exist". Questions, comments, smart remarks? JJB 03:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I question the wording in the lede that Restorationists believe Christianity "should be" returned to a purer form. It is key to many of the groups mentioned that a purer form of Christianity has been instituted, and that they are it. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 16:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
The following 2005-2012 discussions are hereby merged in from the talkpage of the former unwieldy article Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Sabbatarian), which is now merged and redirected here (with portions merged to Sabbath in Christianity and Noahide Laws, as the article seemed to be all over the place). Article showed no activity for 1.5 years. JJB 20:54, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
The article still reads very POV. Another term for primitive apostolic Christianity is Christianity; a redirect to Early Christianity seems appropo. This is a term that is used by many traditions to refer to the early Church. KHM03 22:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Mainstream Christianity (MSC for short) considers itself Apostolic. Accordingly, an article about "Apostolic Christianity" in an NPOV encyclopedia needs to discuss the largest group which considers itself apostolic...MSC (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestantism). It may also mention some groups on the margin (Latter Day Saints, for example), but the "meat" of the article needs to deal with the largest, most representative group. Otherwise, it's POV.
Now, primitive Christianity is equated with the early Church; in fact, greats such as Luther, Calvin, and Wesley actually called the early Church the "primitive Church". That is the most prominent definition. Therefore, in an NPOV encyclopedia, primitive Christianity = early Christianity. A simple redirect ought to suffice.
I am uncertain what claims you are making here, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it seems to me that you are making the claim that some (not all, certainly) "Church of God" groups claim something else for "Apostolic" Christianity or "Primitive" Christianity. If so, that's all well and good, but these names are generally understood to mean something else by MSC and by the public-at-large.
Is there a specific school of theological thought that makes these claims, i.e., Arminian, Calvinist, Roman, etc.? If so, we may be able to help fashion an NPOV article with a more appropriate and accurate name. Until then, it seems very POV. KHM03 00:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Because MSC is so large in comparison to more marginal groups (marginal in terms of size, not correctness), it is the dominant "version". One may disagree with MSC or its definition of "Apostolic", but any article dealing with the term (in an NPOV encyclopedia) will be dominated by MSC. That's not POV...just reality, for good or ill. I think that the Christianity article tries to define a "basic" or "primary" understanding of the Faith (with the additional understanding that specific denominations will have their own additional takes). My question regarding a school of thought was for your benefit; an article entitled Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Methodist), for example, could elucidate the Methodist view of the term more freely. Is there a school of thought, marginal grouping, or denominational heritage which claims the PAC label as you apparently want to use it? KHM03 01:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, KHM03. We are coming to an understanding! Size or correctness is what many differences of opinion are about. You are correct in saying any article will generally discuss the majority POV, and it may be the first paragraph. I would just appreciate hearing that this is POV! I would welcome you to write a paragraph or more discussing the MSC POV. Just acknowledge that it is POV! That is what the article acknowledges by using the terms some and sects. There are plenty of articles referring to MSC POV, and I would welcome you to refer to those, but please realize that TMI (too much information), will be referred as well.-- Kevin 01:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an agreeable introduction, and I have added it to the article.-- Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
This would be another era limited description, which is not really descriptive of modern PAC. -- Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Protestants also consider themselves "Apostolic", as do Mormons, etc. The term is already in use by many other groups...this is my point. To call an article PAC means you're talking about these groups. This is why I suggest we pin down the school of thought that is making these claims (Adventist? Catholic? Calvinist? What?), in order to have a more precise article title that enables Kevhorn (et al) to develop it more appropriately. KHM03 12:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I have not read of any group that uses primitive apostolic to describe their doctrine. If you have references, we can include them.-- Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
There are a number of groups that call themselves Church of God; What we are discussing are the groups that are Nomian or Sabbatarian.-- Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
There are several articles of religion, or liturgy writings, among various denominations and distinguishing them from each other is very necessary. If there is something written elsewhere concerning current religious observance of PAC, lets discuss a necessary distinguishing term. Sabbatarian is only one difference from Nicene Christianity. Many of these groups are non-trinitarian, apolitical, not participants in war....-- Kevin 16:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Please reread my rewrite above; it was not clear enough. As stated earlier, the article and title of Early Christianity is limited to a time reference and does not denote current observance of PAC-- Kevin 17:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
"PAC of the Bible" is considered by MSC to be MSC. Pre-Nicene Christianity is also EC, but could also include sects like the Gnostics. I don't think that's what you're going for. That's why I wondered if the PAC was associated with a school of thought like Arminian, Calvinist, Roman Catholic, etc., so we could make it "PAC Sabb." or whatever and be done. KHM03 19:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
You seriously believe that MSC doesn't consider itself PAC? Wow. Speak with any Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian. What I believe is of no consequence here; the point is that MSC considers itself PAC, though it usually just uses the term "Christianity". You say, "Extremely early Christianity is PAC, but this early Apostolic Christianity bears little resemblance to MSC. History has changed MSC to the point that the Apostles would not be able to recognize many of the teachings that bear little resemblance to PAC." That's a very POV statement which I also dispute. The early Christians would recognize MSC as the Church. So, no luck there. If we add "Restorationism", which is OK with me, you'll also have Mormonism & Jehovah's Witnesses involved, which is part of that movement. Again...fine by me...if that's what you're aiming for. I tend to think "PAC Sabb." is your best bet. KHM03 19:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Again, I would disagree that MSC isn't PAC...but the point is moot. With the move, you are free to explain PAC in any way you want (within WP rules) and you don't have to worry about giving proper time (which would be most, probably) to MSC. Good luck! Make a great article! KHM03 21:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
First, Mormonism definitely claims to be "PAC" as you describe. They claim that "MSC" lost apostolic/priesthood authority sometime between the first and fourth century (I've never been able to pin them down any closer than that), but that this was restored when
Joseph Smith and friends were visited by Jesus, Peter, John, and others, and given this authority and teachings again. Second, Orthodoxy also claims to follow the teachings of the Bible and of the anti-Nicene fathers. For instance, when our parish was preparing for a visit from our bishop, our priest had us read what
Ignatius of Antioch had to say about how one should treat a bishop, not just as a historical reference but as a practical guide to be put in practice. We deliberately follow first and second century practices regarding baptism, Eucharist, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and so on. Some outward forms have evolved, but we at least think we're building squarely on the same foundation. I say this not to try to convince you that we're right, but to make you aware of the historical claim, and to let you know that the PAC (Sabbatarian) is not as unique in this respect as it might suppose.
Wesley
05:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks good Wesley. I could say much more, but I don't want to dominate the article. :-D The intent of this article seems to be in line with the dominant theme of early Mormonism. A key meme of early Mormonism was that "angels had visited the earth again" "to restore the ancient faith", and that all "the gifts and powers" of "the primitive church" had been "restored to the earth". The articles of faith say "we believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church." So your additions are certainly appropriate. Thanks for being familiar with the issues. You're a good soul. Tom Haws 15:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Quoting the article: "This movement is called Primitive since its followers believe their movement to reconstruct the earliest forms of Christianity. "
There must be a word or two missing from this. Wanderer57 ( talk) 21:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
There are several points in this article where the wording seems odd. This may be due to my lack of background, though I don't think it is entirely due to that.
This sentence, from the end of the article, is especially puzzling. Can someone please reword it for clarity?
"The primitive observances are relegated to secondary status in observance of progressive revelation, much as mainstream Christianity is said-to-have changed the appointed times such as fourth commandment obedience."
Thanks. Wanderer57 ( talk) 21:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
The Best way to understand ANY point of view is for it to be stated by an advocate of that point of view. There is pleny of space for debate or contrary opinion but someone who has a prejudice Against a point of view will, typically, present it in a skewed fashion, as has been done here in revision undos... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Educator717 ( talk • contribs) 23:53, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, Kevin and all, this article does not work for me. (1) It appears to be a content fork of Restorationism (Christian primitivism), a much more detailed article on the various things that might be called "Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Sabbatarian)". (2) There is no such thing as "Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Sabbatarian)" in caps. Of course there is primitive Christianity, apostolic Christianity, the intersection of the two, and Sabbatarianism, but the caps would require a legal entity of some kind, not just a movement. (3) As it appears hinted above, apostolic Christianity has a few more meanings than expressed here, and Sabbatarianism has quite a few more. I could see an article on a "primitive Christianity movement", but there might be nothing left after merge to restorationism. (4) There is no V (one WP:PRIMARY source). There is much potential OR. There is much potential POV ("invent say detractors"). I apologize for breaking up the party, but this is not how WP is done in 2012. I'll work with you but you'll need to work with me. JJB 00:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright, all the useful content I could see has been merged to restorationism, Sabbath in Christianity, and Noahide laws. The synthesis of these strands (and others) into an allegedly nameable movement was not sustainable. I recognize that there is sufficient material for an article on "primitive, apostolic Christianity" (not capitalized PAC as described above), but that article exists at restorationism. Accordingly, I will redirect to that article at a later time, and cold-merge and redirect this talk page. Objections may be dealt with first by sourcing the need for a separate article under any name. JJB 18:14, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
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There is debate on the talk page to Seventh-Day Adventist Church as to whether that church is Restorationist or Protestant. The Restorationist article says that the Seventh-Day Adventist church was created by Restorationists. I am confused about what the classification should be. Is there anyone who can give a explanation on this topic? After all, this religious database: http://www.religioustolerance.org/sda.htm clearly states that Seventh-Day Adventists are Restorationist. Rob.saberon ( talk) 03:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Rob: Restorationism is a subset of Protestantism. Does that clarify matters for you? 75.71.67.2 ( talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
These require fixing. The listing at the end of the article shows that these are incompletely formatted. Also, it is unclear why a sequence of so many references is required. Can this be shrunk to a few, and properly formatted please. Have a look at Template:Cite book for info. Thanks! Fremte ( talk) 04:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Man this article is awful. Completely written from a prejudicial viewpoint, there is no NPOV here at all. The article makes even the term "restorationism" appear highly pejorative and even demeaning to any sect or denomination that is not decidedly mainstream Protestant or Roman Catholic. This article seems to have a lot of good information but it needs a complete NPOV rewrite. -- Solascriptura 15:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
The re-written section on the LDS is not an improvement, in my opinion. I would like to have comments especially by the LDS wikipedians. Doesn't that paragraph express a rather biased, even proselytizing perspective? Whereas, the paragraph it replaces was, in my opinion, neither criticism nor adulation but simply a description appropriate for the article's context. Mkmcconn 19:20, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
That replaced paragraph used to read:
I'm not an LDS member, but I see and agree with your point. I think the previous version was better.
I've reverted the paragraph. The deleted paragraph used to read:
Mkmcconn 14:38, 9 Feb 2004
Most of the sections about religions briefly discuss the history of the religion. But the SDA section has been completely mangled to just say that they don't believe they're restorationists. This doesn't seem appropriate to the article. Also, the new grammar is atrocious. (e.g., "Another words..."?)-- Jeffro77 ( talk) 22:27, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Religious Tolerance.org classifies Seventh-Day Adventists as Restorationist: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chrrest.htm Rob.saberon ( talk) 23:22, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
By the addition of the middle ages material, the article is falling apart. With the definition assumed by the new material, will every movement of dissent and reform be called "restorationism"? The new material and lead bury the far more notable 19th century restorationist movements. Please consider a disambiguation page, or a sub-section. — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 17:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
(new indent) Scholarly research identifies Restorationism as unaffiliated religious movements that believe that they are restoring pristine, or original Christianity, sometimes referred to as Christian primitivism. What you are talking about in the middle ages has nothing to do with scholarly research and is original research. No references support this being part of Restorationism. If there is not evidence to support your position within two weeks I will delete the material. You are free to start another page to cover your topic, but do not use the term Restorationism; it does not apply and no academic would use such term. I suspect that with further research you will find an appropriate title. -- Storm Rider (talk) 21:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Split of Restorationism (middle ages) is complete I think. Regardless of your belief abuot the exclusivity of the use of the term restorationim as recent only, a check of the references for the section that is now another article will show otherwsie. Some text changes in Restorationism may be required. May I respectfully suggest you review the policy WP:OWN. I find your approach (this is the second time) aggressive Storm Rider. Fremte ( talk) 14:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Restorationist groups frequently consider themselves to be historically unrelated to other branches of Christianity, except prior to that juncture at which the Great Apostasy is thought to have taken place. This belief is depicted for example by the dotted line of the graphic that appears at
Category:Restorationism and treating it as a separate "branch", distinct in some sense from Protestantism, is also widely conventional throughout the wiki.
What is the best way to express this explicitly but very briefly, in the introduction, without introducing an over-generalization? —
Mark (
Mkmcconn)
**
18:17, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, I don't have time to read all this today - I will later - but it does looks unappetizing. I would just submit the idea for your consideration, that the whole series of articles under 'Restoration' -ist, -ism, Movement, etc. is now quite a mess. It appears that various camps are fighting to 'own' the word. If you've come up with something that appeases everyone that might seem good, but clarity has been the cost. I submit the following for your consideration. The word Restorationist/ ism/ or Restoration Movement, using the word Restoration without a modifier, should only appear in wiki once, one article. Any other article making use of the word should contain a modifier, e.g Stone-Campbell Restoration, Mormon Restoration, Restoration in the Middle Ages. Slofstra ( talk) 14:32, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I am surprised that Plymouth Brethren are not included as "Restorationists". Is not their doctrine of "The Church in Ruins" and their desire to return to what they saw as "The New Testament Pattern" restorationist ideas? They called out Christians from the denominations, and beseeched them to gather only to the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe there are parallels to the Plymouth Brethren movement and the Campbell Church of Christ movement. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
216.171.104.62 (
talk)
12:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
That's not quite an accurate description of Joseph Smith Jr.'s position. Using this as a title is like saying vegetarianism is "A Protest Against McDonalds". What do you all think? -- BenMcLean ( talk) 21:25, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
We need clear mention of this "position" or modern LDS position. It's not clear in the notes or list of "resoration" churches and positions... why was most of the verbage abt. mormon church removed... NOT logical or practical????
Organist00 (
talk)
05:51, 28 April 2016 (UTC) organist00
There is currently discussion regarding the creation of a work group specifically to deal with articles dealing with Restorationism, among others, here. Any parties interested in working in such a group are welcome to indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter ( talk) 16:48, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
This article does not tell a reader (one not already familiar with restorationism) what the churches listed have in common. Is it only that they believe their methods of worship matches with the way the earliest Christians worshiped? Are there any basic beliefs that all the listed groups share? From this article it appears they reject the trinity and yet also believe Christ was the Son of God and that the Holy Spirit must enter into the individual. How can this be true? Nitpyck ( talk) 05:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
In response to Nitpyck, I am not sure I understand your question about what can be true. Are you saying that one cannot believe that Jesus was the Son of God and the Holy Spirit plays a significant part in the lives of disciples and not believe in the Trinity? If so, why do you think these beliefs are not possible outside of the Trinity?-- Storm Rider 16:46, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Jehovah's Witness is mentioned in passing, but nothing more. Aren't they big enough to deserve a paragraph? Joshuajohanson ( talk) 18:46, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
I believe Jehovah Witness beliefs are closer to Arianism, Michal the Arch Angel being Christ, who is the first created being by God, Their Christology appeared on the scene in the 3rd century. -- Wer2chosen ( talk) 13:10, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Although I am not sure these are reliable, but they do describe what I think of Restorationism:
I just did a quick google to come up with these rather than go through hard copy. Thoughts?-- Storm Rider 23:54, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
In the section, "Disagreements with Established Churches," I found the following sentence: "Some even claimed the Bible suffered from ancient corruption, which required correction." I think this statement is far too vague. Throughout the so-called "restorationist" movements and other sorts of Christians, there have always been discussions about whether certain English translations of the Bible might be in need of revision. Even the Roman Catholic Church, which could be considered the antithesis of the restoration movement, has periodically issued a variety of translations. If the statement refers to this sort of thing, there is no reason for it to be in the article. But if the article refers to something stronger, like a unique belief in the deep corruption of the Bible text, the only example I know of this is Joseph Smith, who produced his own edition of the Bible with additional material which he believed to have been lost over the centuries. If this is what we're talking about, why don't we just make the statement specific and name him. Mitchell Powell ( talk) 18:23, 10 September 2009 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mitchell Powell ( talk • contribs) 18:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
This article has seen a series of edits that have de-capitalized the names of a variety of well-know historical groups and movements. The edit comments refer to the Manual of Style. The section of the manual that's referenced says:
I believe these edits misunderstand both the manual of style and the nature of the literature on these movements. The statement "Philosophies, theories, movements, and doctrines do not begin with a capital letter" is qualified with "unless the name derives from a proper noun. . . or has become a proper noun . . ."
The sources cited in this article consistently use terms such as "Protestant Reformation" and "Restoration Movement" as proper nouns. So, for example, lowercase "reformation" can be used to refer to any movement that tries to reform an existing church or other institution. The upper case Protestant Reformation (and often just the "Reformation") describes a particular reform movement from the 16th century. Similarly, many religious movements have had restoration of the primitive church as a goal, and can be described as "restoration movements." But the upper case "Restoration Movement" (a.k.a. the "American Restoration Movement" and the "Stone-Campbell Movement") refers to a particular movement that originated around the turn of the 19th century. Lower case "reformation" and "restoration" are both doctrinal topics rather than specific events; the "Reformation" and the "Restoration Movement" are both specific movements originating in a particular time and place. Both terms are used as proper nouns in the histories that deal with those movements. This is exactly parallel to the example from the MOS of using lower case "republican" to describe a particular type of political thought, and upper case "Republican" to describe a specific party or ideology.
Bottom line, I believe that the standing, consensus usage of capitalizing these terms in this article is fully consistent with the manual of style because it reflects the use of these terms as proper nouns in the academic literature that studies the related movements. EastTN ( talk) 21:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
Other examples are easy to think of. The word "pilgrim" is a perfectly good common noun, but we also have the "Pilgrims" who settled Massachusetts; "congregationalist" is a perfectly good lower case noun or adjective describing someone who supports a particular form of church organization, but we also have "Congregationalists" who are members of a particular family of denominations (and who also happen to be lower case "congregationalists"); "presbyterian" is an adjective that can be used to describe a particular form of church organization, but we can also have the "Presbyterian" church; and lower case "catholic" simply means "universal," but we can also ask "is the Pope Catholic?" It's foolish - and ruins the style of the article - to mechanically say "is it a movement - then by golly, we're gonna use a lower-case noun" without stopping to ask "is it a description of the movement or the name of the movement?" (i.e., is it a common noun or a proper noun?) EastTN ( talk) 21:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
I've been wondering if it would make sense to rename this article. The current name, "Restorationism," doesn't provide any indication that the article is dealing with Christianity (or even religion, for that matter). Moving it to something like "Restorationism (Christian Primitivism)" would make that clear, while also giving the reader a better indication of what the article is talking about. A side benefit would be opening up the article name "Restorationism" for a potential future disambiguation article that could distinguish between this and Christian Restorationism, "restorationism" as Universal reconciliation and perhaps other uses of the term outside Christianity. EastTN ( talk) 00:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
Support (already done) revert move to Restorationism (Christian primitivism) - this might call for a RM but for the time being Restorationism is better supported than "Christian primitivism", so should be in the title. There may not be a clear title for this as both terms get used.
In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:29, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
Though offhand it seems to me "Christian primitivism" is clearer, I am convinced by the source arguments that "Restorationism" is more widespread overall. However, the posts that rightly objected to the synonymy (see e.g. WP:AND, WP:PRECISE) have not been answered. Further, this article is the WP:PRIME topic for the search term "restorationism", and all the other topics there (if they are not subtopics here) are secondary. The WP:WPDAB solution is clear: move "restorationism" to "restorationism (disambiguation)", and move this page to "restorationism". The first half is noncontroversial and nonadmin so I did it, and then requested a technical deletion to ensure the second half can be done. The concerns in the above thread are, according to standard practice, sufficiently addressed by the routine hatnote that already appears on this page. In short, this would be undoing the 2010 move because it "solved a problem that didn't exist". Questions, comments, smart remarks? JJB 03:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
I question the wording in the lede that Restorationists believe Christianity "should be" returned to a purer form. It is key to many of the groups mentioned that a purer form of Christianity has been instituted, and that they are it. DJ Clayworth ( talk) 16:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
The following 2005-2012 discussions are hereby merged in from the talkpage of the former unwieldy article Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Sabbatarian), which is now merged and redirected here (with portions merged to Sabbath in Christianity and Noahide Laws, as the article seemed to be all over the place). Article showed no activity for 1.5 years. JJB 20:54, 29 April 2012 (UTC)
The article still reads very POV. Another term for primitive apostolic Christianity is Christianity; a redirect to Early Christianity seems appropo. This is a term that is used by many traditions to refer to the early Church. KHM03 22:04, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
Mainstream Christianity (MSC for short) considers itself Apostolic. Accordingly, an article about "Apostolic Christianity" in an NPOV encyclopedia needs to discuss the largest group which considers itself apostolic...MSC (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, Protestantism). It may also mention some groups on the margin (Latter Day Saints, for example), but the "meat" of the article needs to deal with the largest, most representative group. Otherwise, it's POV.
Now, primitive Christianity is equated with the early Church; in fact, greats such as Luther, Calvin, and Wesley actually called the early Church the "primitive Church". That is the most prominent definition. Therefore, in an NPOV encyclopedia, primitive Christianity = early Christianity. A simple redirect ought to suffice.
I am uncertain what claims you are making here, and I don't want to put words in your mouth. But it seems to me that you are making the claim that some (not all, certainly) "Church of God" groups claim something else for "Apostolic" Christianity or "Primitive" Christianity. If so, that's all well and good, but these names are generally understood to mean something else by MSC and by the public-at-large.
Is there a specific school of theological thought that makes these claims, i.e., Arminian, Calvinist, Roman, etc.? If so, we may be able to help fashion an NPOV article with a more appropriate and accurate name. Until then, it seems very POV. KHM03 00:44, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Because MSC is so large in comparison to more marginal groups (marginal in terms of size, not correctness), it is the dominant "version". One may disagree with MSC or its definition of "Apostolic", but any article dealing with the term (in an NPOV encyclopedia) will be dominated by MSC. That's not POV...just reality, for good or ill. I think that the Christianity article tries to define a "basic" or "primary" understanding of the Faith (with the additional understanding that specific denominations will have their own additional takes). My question regarding a school of thought was for your benefit; an article entitled Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Methodist), for example, could elucidate the Methodist view of the term more freely. Is there a school of thought, marginal grouping, or denominational heritage which claims the PAC label as you apparently want to use it? KHM03 01:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Thank you, KHM03. We are coming to an understanding! Size or correctness is what many differences of opinion are about. You are correct in saying any article will generally discuss the majority POV, and it may be the first paragraph. I would just appreciate hearing that this is POV! I would welcome you to write a paragraph or more discussing the MSC POV. Just acknowledge that it is POV! That is what the article acknowledges by using the terms some and sects. There are plenty of articles referring to MSC POV, and I would welcome you to refer to those, but please realize that TMI (too much information), will be referred as well.-- Kevin 01:55, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
This is an agreeable introduction, and I have added it to the article.-- Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
This would be another era limited description, which is not really descriptive of modern PAC. -- Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Protestants also consider themselves "Apostolic", as do Mormons, etc. The term is already in use by many other groups...this is my point. To call an article PAC means you're talking about these groups. This is why I suggest we pin down the school of thought that is making these claims (Adventist? Catholic? Calvinist? What?), in order to have a more precise article title that enables Kevhorn (et al) to develop it more appropriately. KHM03 12:38, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I have not read of any group that uses primitive apostolic to describe their doctrine. If you have references, we can include them.-- Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
There are a number of groups that call themselves Church of God; What we are discussing are the groups that are Nomian or Sabbatarian.-- Kevin 15:43, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
There are several articles of religion, or liturgy writings, among various denominations and distinguishing them from each other is very necessary. If there is something written elsewhere concerning current religious observance of PAC, lets discuss a necessary distinguishing term. Sabbatarian is only one difference from Nicene Christianity. Many of these groups are non-trinitarian, apolitical, not participants in war....-- Kevin 16:36, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Please reread my rewrite above; it was not clear enough. As stated earlier, the article and title of Early Christianity is limited to a time reference and does not denote current observance of PAC-- Kevin 17:05, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
"PAC of the Bible" is considered by MSC to be MSC. Pre-Nicene Christianity is also EC, but could also include sects like the Gnostics. I don't think that's what you're going for. That's why I wondered if the PAC was associated with a school of thought like Arminian, Calvinist, Roman Catholic, etc., so we could make it "PAC Sabb." or whatever and be done. KHM03 19:32, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
You seriously believe that MSC doesn't consider itself PAC? Wow. Speak with any Roman Catholic or Orthodox Christian. What I believe is of no consequence here; the point is that MSC considers itself PAC, though it usually just uses the term "Christianity". You say, "Extremely early Christianity is PAC, but this early Apostolic Christianity bears little resemblance to MSC. History has changed MSC to the point that the Apostles would not be able to recognize many of the teachings that bear little resemblance to PAC." That's a very POV statement which I also dispute. The early Christians would recognize MSC as the Church. So, no luck there. If we add "Restorationism", which is OK with me, you'll also have Mormonism & Jehovah's Witnesses involved, which is part of that movement. Again...fine by me...if that's what you're aiming for. I tend to think "PAC Sabb." is your best bet. KHM03 19:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Again, I would disagree that MSC isn't PAC...but the point is moot. With the move, you are free to explain PAC in any way you want (within WP rules) and you don't have to worry about giving proper time (which would be most, probably) to MSC. Good luck! Make a great article! KHM03 21:58, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
First, Mormonism definitely claims to be "PAC" as you describe. They claim that "MSC" lost apostolic/priesthood authority sometime between the first and fourth century (I've never been able to pin them down any closer than that), but that this was restored when
Joseph Smith and friends were visited by Jesus, Peter, John, and others, and given this authority and teachings again. Second, Orthodoxy also claims to follow the teachings of the Bible and of the anti-Nicene fathers. For instance, when our parish was preparing for a visit from our bishop, our priest had us read what
Ignatius of Antioch had to say about how one should treat a bishop, not just as a historical reference but as a practical guide to be put in practice. We deliberately follow first and second century practices regarding baptism, Eucharist, prayer, fasting, almsgiving, and so on. Some outward forms have evolved, but we at least think we're building squarely on the same foundation. I say this not to try to convince you that we're right, but to make you aware of the historical claim, and to let you know that the PAC (Sabbatarian) is not as unique in this respect as it might suppose.
Wesley
05:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks good Wesley. I could say much more, but I don't want to dominate the article. :-D The intent of this article seems to be in line with the dominant theme of early Mormonism. A key meme of early Mormonism was that "angels had visited the earth again" "to restore the ancient faith", and that all "the gifts and powers" of "the primitive church" had been "restored to the earth". The articles of faith say "we believe in the same organization that existed in the primitive church." So your additions are certainly appropriate. Thanks for being familiar with the issues. You're a good soul. Tom Haws 15:28, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Quoting the article: "This movement is called Primitive since its followers believe their movement to reconstruct the earliest forms of Christianity. "
There must be a word or two missing from this. Wanderer57 ( talk) 21:39, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
There are several points in this article where the wording seems odd. This may be due to my lack of background, though I don't think it is entirely due to that.
This sentence, from the end of the article, is especially puzzling. Can someone please reword it for clarity?
"The primitive observances are relegated to secondary status in observance of progressive revelation, much as mainstream Christianity is said-to-have changed the appointed times such as fourth commandment obedience."
Thanks. Wanderer57 ( talk) 21:47, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
The Best way to understand ANY point of view is for it to be stated by an advocate of that point of view. There is pleny of space for debate or contrary opinion but someone who has a prejudice Against a point of view will, typically, present it in a skewed fashion, as has been done here in revision undos... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Educator717 ( talk • contribs) 23:53, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, Kevin and all, this article does not work for me. (1) It appears to be a content fork of Restorationism (Christian primitivism), a much more detailed article on the various things that might be called "Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Sabbatarian)". (2) There is no such thing as "Primitive Apostolic Christianity (Sabbatarian)" in caps. Of course there is primitive Christianity, apostolic Christianity, the intersection of the two, and Sabbatarianism, but the caps would require a legal entity of some kind, not just a movement. (3) As it appears hinted above, apostolic Christianity has a few more meanings than expressed here, and Sabbatarianism has quite a few more. I could see an article on a "primitive Christianity movement", but there might be nothing left after merge to restorationism. (4) There is no V (one WP:PRIMARY source). There is much potential OR. There is much potential POV ("invent say detractors"). I apologize for breaking up the party, but this is not how WP is done in 2012. I'll work with you but you'll need to work with me. JJB 00:11, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Alright, all the useful content I could see has been merged to restorationism, Sabbath in Christianity, and Noahide laws. The synthesis of these strands (and others) into an allegedly nameable movement was not sustainable. I recognize that there is sufficient material for an article on "primitive, apostolic Christianity" (not capitalized PAC as described above), but that article exists at restorationism. Accordingly, I will redirect to that article at a later time, and cold-merge and redirect this talk page. Objections may be dealt with first by sourcing the need for a separate article under any name. JJB 18:14, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
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