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See main article Sistine Chapel
-- Amandajm 10:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've just removed an insertion re Vasari and Condivi's comments.
Reason:-
However, this seems unlikely since Michelangelo's contemporary biographers (Vasari and Condivi) indicate that Michelangelo did not have the time to add the 'a secco' additions after the initial painting due to the Pope's insistence concerning the removal of the scaffolding for viewing of the ceiling.
There is a misunderstanding as to what Vasari and Condivi meant. It was usual, as is described in Sistine Chapel ceiling to work over an entire fresco "a secco" with gold leaf and bright blue made from ground lapis lazuli. This is to be found in Giotto's work Scrovegni Chapel and Fra Angelico's chapel at the Vatican. This would have been a time-consuming process and would have been done as a second stage. All the other frescoes in the Chapel, including the Last Judgement, have blue and/or gold. It wasn't done in the case of the ceiling, except, as I have written in Sistine Chapel ceiling on the shields.
On the other hand, touching up the details and shadows of each individual figure would have occured on a day to day basis, as each figure neared completion. Because of the rate at which plaster dried and because a large figure could take more than a day, sometimes the completion would have occurred when the plaster was dry or nearly dry, as I have explained within this article. That is the reason why some figures have black details painted "fresco" and some had details painted "a secco". These details have now gone.
I hope this makes it clear. It doesn't conflict with what Vasari and Condivi said.
-- Amandajm 11:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I am a bit worried by the highlighted bit of: "It was discovered, on close examination, that apart from smoky deposits, seepage deposits and structural cracks, Michelangelo's frescos were in extremely good condition, as the master painter had employed the best possible fresco techniques and, as recorded by Vasari, had used a very stable and mould-resistant recipe for the ground (called Intonaco), developed by his assistant Jacopo l'Indaco, in which the plaster was mixed with volcanic ash. This has saved the ceiling from extensive biological attack."
- I can't see that either Vasari or the referenced "Giani" (which I have) say this, though I can see such a claim in many low-grade web refs. Vasari says the "the elder Indaco" was one of the Florentine assistants whose drawings he tore up & sent home, and also that Giuliano da Sangallo showed him, 1/3 of the way through the work, how to remove mould that was growing on the finished work. The passage has been messed about a bit, including by me - "intonaco" is essentially the Italian for "plaster" & was certainly not invented by Indaco, nor was the use of volcanic dust at all original. It might be better to trim to: "...as the master painter had employed the best possible fresco techniques, as recorded by Vasari, which has saved the ceiling from extensive biological attack." Johnbod 20:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Cappella Sistina option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=26. (Don't know who wrote it!)
The article mentions both a 'Matthan' lunette and a 'Mathan' lunette. Reference searches do reveal sources for both spellings of the Sistine Chapel lunette. Assuming the article reference is the same, in the absence of a direct quote the spelling probably should be made consistent within the article. The most appropriate spelling is a decision I leave to the more informed. Michael Devore 05:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Can we have before-and-after pictures of the same piece at the top, since the restoration is the subject of the article? When the pictures finished loading on my browser I did a double-take - "That's one heck of a restoration." Tempshill 04:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be an inconsistency with the starting and ending dates of the ceiling and last judgment, if you follow the links from this page to the individual pages for the ceiling and the last judgment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.127.51.82 ( talk) 07:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to call this article Restoration of the Sistine Chapel ceiling frescoes? It doesn't really discuss the restoration of Michelangelo's Last Judgment or the works by other painters. Skarioffszky 08:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a great article by the way, kudos to the writers. The images in particular! -- SGGH speak! 08:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This article has very severe NPOV-problems as the text strongly tends to side with the critics of the restoration. Many sections are written simply assuming the criticism is correct. It might be, but it is not our place to propound this.-- MWAK 09:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It would also be good to include some response to the criticisms. For example, it seems to me (knowing nothing about art restoration) that if Michelangelo used carbon black for shadows, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to remove the smoke residue without damaging his material as well. So the alternative would be to leave the painting (or sections of it) covered in crud, which does not seem like a viable one. KarlM 13:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I cannot make this article more balanced than it is now. I feel that the present balance accurately represents the response by artists, critics and historians to what has been done.
While I do not want in any way to trivialise an event that has cost the lives of thousands, I must point out that the US, UK and Australisn Governments had good justifaction for war with Iraq. But what is refelected, overwhelmingly, in wikipedia's articles is the criticism, the opposition and the disastrous results. One could argue that this is not a balanced point of view.
But wikipedia is not a three-to-a-side formal debate where the style and refutation is everything and the topic really doesn't matter. Wikipedia is here to present factual information. And if the facts as gleaned from documentary sources and supported by clearly visible primary sources indicate that the restoration of the Sistine Chapel ceiling resulted in losses to the original painting, then that is what must be presented. If writers have frequently expressed the opinion that this is a disaster, then that ought to be presented as well. Amandajm 09:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The books produced by the restorers and those who have an interest in the restoration are successful in justifying why the restoration was done. And they successfully produce a great number of pictures to show that cracks have been repaired, that salty deposists have been removed, that flaking and bubbling has been counteracted (this was fortunately not a major problem) that old structural supports and repairs were checked and stabiliised. These are the benefits of the restoration and all these things are discussed in the article. None of these matters is contentious. There is no negative discussion about this stuff at all, because no-one has made any criticism of these measures whatsoever. This material is simply presented as the facts. Moreover, it has been presented with accuracy and understanding, because, although I have never been involved with a fresco restoration, I am personally well aware of the general conservation (restoration) procedures set in place by the Vatican, and which, if taken as strict guidelines, are really very cautious in their approach. As it happens, they were world leaders in establishing conservation procedures.
The matter of contention is not that the ceiling (and lunettes) was restored. Neither is it the fact that the ceiling was cleaned. The problem lies in the decisions as to what did and did not constitute Michelangelo's intentions, and Michelangelo's own work. It is more at this point than any other that the restorers ought to have erred on the side of caution. They were told. they were warned. They ignored statements by the previous restoration team. They ignored all the arguments put up by critics, painters and art historians. They refused to respond when the whistle was blown. They went ahead anyway. And they did it, taking a universal approach that removed human judgement from the equation, despite a stated position that they would respond to each area of the ceiling as a separate case.
Do you really expect that some member of the team is going to put their hand up and say "I went up there on the scaffold, I looked into the intense and compelling gaze of the figure in the Jesse lunette, and then applied three layers of solvent that removed first the automotive exhaust deposits, then the candlewax and carbon deposits, and thirdly, after those eyes had been clearly revealed by the removal of most of the dirt, the final layer of glue-size and paint, and swabbed the eyes away, leaving two blank sockets." ? That is what somebbody did. That was the decision mmade in relation to that figure. That was the supposed sympathetic response to each individual part of the ceiling.
The facts are plain. When the team started cleaning those areas of lesser importance, eg, the archhiitectural details of the frames around the pics, they could see that every single bit of detail looked similar. But as they cleaned, in some cases it stayed fixed, because it was "fresco" and in some cases it came off because it was "secco". In the ccases where it was secco, the process employed destroyed the details. This was very obviously apparent. A proper response to this obvious loss of detail would have been to take a more cautious approach, bbut that was not done.
I suppose we can just thank God Almighty that Michelangelo painted the eyes of God, and Adam, and Eve in the famous "Creation of Adam" scene while the plaster was still wet. Because if he had painted that particular scene in the dry Italian summer and put the finishing touches at the very end of the day, (as one might expect) then that interaction between God and Adam, and the wondering and slightly alarmed look of Eve as she sees her husband-to-be come to life would have been lost forever due to the restoration.
Yes, the restorers can show a thousand beautifully coloured pictures to support the fact that the ceiling needed cleaning. I have presented ten similar pics in the article that illustrate that point. But they have never justified the approach taken to the cleaning, or discussed the losses of definition. To put it in the simplest possible terms, the compositions, tonal scheme annd details should all be much mmore apparent with the filth lifted. In some areas, eg, the Creation of Adam, this is the case. But in other areas, eg most of the Jonah figure, the Haman scene, many of the lunettes, several of the spandrels, some of the other prophets and many areas of the architecture, the details are greatly diminished. Why? Because they've been removed and Michelangelo's intended finished appearance has been lost.
The full impact of this may be very hard for a person who is not an artist, or art student to comprehend. But we are talking about the most famous frescoes in the world. We are talking about a series of paintings which hhad profound impact on the direction of art, and which have bbeen irreversibly changed, It's like knocking the nose off the sphynx and saying, "Oh yes, but we've removed all the sand so you can see it better."
No-one will ever deny the pleasure of seeing the colours. That point does not need to be proven, and it cannot be used as justification for removing the linear details, the shadows and the eyes that were painted in black. This is the matter that has brought critism and this is the matter that has never been adequately addessed, not even in a $1500 book.
... and as for the National Geographic.... it is easy, as I have said already, to justify the fact of the restoration, the repairs, the stabilisation, and the removal of filth. If you use this as your pro-case, then its very easy to say "oh well, perhaps a few losses are necessary for the greater good." I personally would not expect the National Geographic to present a strongly negative case, in the face of the Vatican.
From a conservation point of view, it was not the fact of the restoration, but its methods and its failure at appropriate response to the specific conditions that are challenged. The irreversible nature of the losses contravenes all good conservation practice. This is the guts of what the critics are saying, and what has been presented here. A large and impressive book funded by a global enterprise might fool the general public, but not anyone who has ever been involved in conservation. I want to point out to you that the critics of the restoration have nothing whatsoever to gain by their opposition. And while the critics keep right on bellowing, independent supporters are strangely silent.
Amandajm ( talk) 02:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is a breakdown by word count of the article. It is essentially a rough count because it is affected by formatting.
I do not believe that this article is unbalanced. The opposition constitutes a significant part of the history of the project itself and has been presented as such. I want the POV banner removed.
Amandajm ( talk) 03:42, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
My apology for missing your response. I've been very busy offline. As you said on my talk page, "As I have said before, I came at this from a point of complete neutrality. But as soon as I read the criticisms, I saw with my own eyes that they were correct. Moreover, when I read what the head of the team wrote, I saw how far what they did deviated from "best practices" ie the procedures that were actually laid down by their very own department in the 1970s and remain at the forefront of good conservation practice." That concerns me b/c it makes you appear to have an agenda with the article. Don't get me wrong, this is a very good article. It just needs to have more of a balance. I see Raul has already removed the tag and I'll support that for now. However, I'm going to research this subject more and see if there are valid sources of supporting analysis and opinion missing. If I find there are, I hope you will consider the addition of this info. Otherwise I feel the tag will have to be returned to the article. Best, -- Alabamaboy ( talk) 19:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad you adjusted the wording; but it is't enough that an opinion can be referenced with a footnote: to attain the necessary NPOV you have to explicitely attribute every opinion (in the form of : "According to Mr X etc. etc."). This is very tiresome, I realize, but such a controversial subject simply demands it.-- MWAK ( talk) 12:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
As someone relatively new to Wikipedia, I'm having trouble understanding why some topics in Wikipedia are chosen to be articles, instead of being sections of higher order articles. It seems to me, if I were using a paper encyclopedia (which I know Wikipedia is not, no need to send me that link), it would never occur to me to look up Restoration of the Sistine Chapel as a separate entry. Instead, I would expect a long section called "Restoration" under the article "Sistine Chapel," making that article more useful. Does anybody have a rule of thumb as to what qualifies a sub-topic to have its own article? Thanks. BWatkins 17:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Again and again we see a work of art that has been obliterated in some cases due to over enthusiastic restoration. I blame committees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.21.203 ( talk) 22:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a small note. The Jesse spandrel eyes were most likely overpainted by someone else. There is clear evidence of the eyes being closed. It's actually referred to in "Michelangelo" by Anthony Hughes. (part of the art and ideas series) 137.22.123.110 ( talk) 06:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Then the example of the Jesse Spandrel is a poor example of the problem. When examined the closely her eyes in the original fresco are in the closed position. This was not an uncommon way to depict saints and prophets at the time. I would suggest finding a different example of eyes going missing, as if we are discussing artist intent it would make little sense to paint in fresco eyes closed and then paint eyes in, as a finishing touch. This particular spandrel makes much more sense as meditative with the eyes closed then it does eyes open.
137.22.123.110 (
talk) 21:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Re Jesse spandrel
Because of the permanence of the fresco technique, if Michelangelo had painted sleeping eyes, in "fresco", then they would still be there for us to see. The only way to remove them would be to scrape off the surface, and replaster it. Simply painting over the top when the plaster was dry would not remove the original.
If you take a look at the comparative pics of Daniel, you can see a change that was made to the edge of the robe. There is a rather ugly little fold that was painted out, very carefully, and the edge neatly higlighted to make the fold disappear. This overpainting was removed in the restoration. The overpainting was so well done, and the detail itself was of such comparative insignificance that it is very hard to believe that some later hand very carefully,and with exceeding competence, modified the master's design, specifically to improve the composition. That is highly unlikely! The little change was almost certainly made by the man himself, in what is called a "pentimenti". Changes made by later restorers were not aimed at improving Michelangelo's design. They were aimed at maintaining its legibility.
Nevertheless, this pentimenti allows us to see very clearly just how little affected the fresco is underneath the addition. In other words, If a later artist painted open eyes over eyes that Michelangelo had painted as closed, then the closed eyes would still be clearly visible, and they are not.
On the other hand, if Michelangelo did not succeed in completing the day's work until the plaster dried, then the completing touch, the painting of the eyes, was done on dry plaster, and did not have the permanence of fresco. Only ambiguous (and possibly misleading) traces now remain.
To put it simply, if Anthony Hughes has written that they eyes were closed, then I disagree with his statement, in the light of what I can see by examining reproductions. You have written here "There is clear evidence of the eyes being closed" but I don't know whether the words "clear evidence" are Hughes' words or your words. The evidence for sleeping eyes is not at all clear to me.
However, if you can locate what Anthony Hughes said, or wrote, it would be a very good thing to have a quote, and a proper citation. If you can lay hands on that info, and put an exact quote to that effect on this page, I will find a way of including it in the article.
Amandajm ( talk) 14:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Why do the eyes look so un-natural. It looks like a corpse. The eyes before were beautiful. They weren't painted by Michelangelo? 86.143.69.170 ( talk) 15:52, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Since I read the article, the issue with the Jesse Spandrel has been addressed. More consensus now, that the "restoration" wasn't. After reading the art-watch in depth analysis and analysing myself somewhat, I came back here to ask about the eyes. "Did Michelangelo paint them?". Defenders of this 'restoration' (and there are many), are trying to say that the eyes within the "Jesse spandrel" were painted as empty sockets. Why? This is arrogance; the new science, the new approach to art. They judge after 500 years. Four years to paint it and 500 years of conservation; to be destroyed by these 'elites'. 86.143.69.170 ( talk) 22:50, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
I just rolled back a whole series of edits by user 96.53.149.117 because nearly all of them were inappropriate.
Amandajm ( talk) 02:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Please stop treating my summary as if it is a quotation. Amandajm ( talk) 17:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't know where to post it but I saw it here and I post it here.
Human eye has a gaussian response centered to green.
Prophet Daniel painting has a greenish tint on yellow shadows. This was probably done from the artist to simulate real world human eye response under dark conditions. I agree that most of the green shadowing should have been darkened w. carbon on top of it. all light reflecting on the green colour behind the carbon emulates what eye actually sees. Adds to the realism.
Same applies to meauve to red shadowing. Blue is one of the first colors to lose in the dark. Most pigments reflect multiple wavelenghts, meauve reflects red and blue. Blue is lost in the shadows. shadow colored red then darkened, emulates meauve shadowed flawlessly.
I have to agree with the critics on this as well, as again with the carbon black detail loss. Remember, what's in Wikipedia is free for use. Makrisj ( talk) 23:40, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Please move the article to be titled "Conservation and restoration of the Sistine Chapel frescoes". This would be in keeping with the language developed around the article Conservation-restoration of cultural heritage. -- RichardMcCoy ( talk) 23:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
This article is tagged for citations needed, and will need to be submitted to WP:FAR if not brought to FA standard. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Restoration of the Sistine Chapel frescoes is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | |||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 14, 2007. | |||||||||||||
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Current status: Former featured article |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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See main article Sistine Chapel
-- Amandajm 10:49, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I've just removed an insertion re Vasari and Condivi's comments.
Reason:-
However, this seems unlikely since Michelangelo's contemporary biographers (Vasari and Condivi) indicate that Michelangelo did not have the time to add the 'a secco' additions after the initial painting due to the Pope's insistence concerning the removal of the scaffolding for viewing of the ceiling.
There is a misunderstanding as to what Vasari and Condivi meant. It was usual, as is described in Sistine Chapel ceiling to work over an entire fresco "a secco" with gold leaf and bright blue made from ground lapis lazuli. This is to be found in Giotto's work Scrovegni Chapel and Fra Angelico's chapel at the Vatican. This would have been a time-consuming process and would have been done as a second stage. All the other frescoes in the Chapel, including the Last Judgement, have blue and/or gold. It wasn't done in the case of the ceiling, except, as I have written in Sistine Chapel ceiling on the shields.
On the other hand, touching up the details and shadows of each individual figure would have occured on a day to day basis, as each figure neared completion. Because of the rate at which plaster dried and because a large figure could take more than a day, sometimes the completion would have occurred when the plaster was dry or nearly dry, as I have explained within this article. That is the reason why some figures have black details painted "fresco" and some had details painted "a secco". These details have now gone.
I hope this makes it clear. It doesn't conflict with what Vasari and Condivi said.
-- Amandajm 11:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I am a bit worried by the highlighted bit of: "It was discovered, on close examination, that apart from smoky deposits, seepage deposits and structural cracks, Michelangelo's frescos were in extremely good condition, as the master painter had employed the best possible fresco techniques and, as recorded by Vasari, had used a very stable and mould-resistant recipe for the ground (called Intonaco), developed by his assistant Jacopo l'Indaco, in which the plaster was mixed with volcanic ash. This has saved the ceiling from extensive biological attack."
- I can't see that either Vasari or the referenced "Giani" (which I have) say this, though I can see such a claim in many low-grade web refs. Vasari says the "the elder Indaco" was one of the Florentine assistants whose drawings he tore up & sent home, and also that Giuliano da Sangallo showed him, 1/3 of the way through the work, how to remove mould that was growing on the finished work. The passage has been messed about a bit, including by me - "intonaco" is essentially the Italian for "plaster" & was certainly not invented by Indaco, nor was the use of volcanic dust at all original. It might be better to trim to: "...as the master painter had employed the best possible fresco techniques, as recorded by Vasari, which has saved the ceiling from extensive biological attack." Johnbod 20:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Cappella Sistina option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=26. (Don't know who wrote it!)
The article mentions both a 'Matthan' lunette and a 'Mathan' lunette. Reference searches do reveal sources for both spellings of the Sistine Chapel lunette. Assuming the article reference is the same, in the absence of a direct quote the spelling probably should be made consistent within the article. The most appropriate spelling is a decision I leave to the more informed. Michael Devore 05:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Can we have before-and-after pictures of the same piece at the top, since the restoration is the subject of the article? When the pictures finished loading on my browser I did a double-take - "That's one heck of a restoration." Tempshill 04:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be an inconsistency with the starting and ending dates of the ceiling and last judgment, if you follow the links from this page to the individual pages for the ceiling and the last judgment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.127.51.82 ( talk) 07:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better to call this article Restoration of the Sistine Chapel ceiling frescoes? It doesn't really discuss the restoration of Michelangelo's Last Judgment or the works by other painters. Skarioffszky 08:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This is a great article by the way, kudos to the writers. The images in particular! -- SGGH speak! 08:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This article has very severe NPOV-problems as the text strongly tends to side with the critics of the restoration. Many sections are written simply assuming the criticism is correct. It might be, but it is not our place to propound this.-- MWAK 09:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It would also be good to include some response to the criticisms. For example, it seems to me (knowing nothing about art restoration) that if Michelangelo used carbon black for shadows, it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to remove the smoke residue without damaging his material as well. So the alternative would be to leave the painting (or sections of it) covered in crud, which does not seem like a viable one. KarlM 13:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I cannot make this article more balanced than it is now. I feel that the present balance accurately represents the response by artists, critics and historians to what has been done.
While I do not want in any way to trivialise an event that has cost the lives of thousands, I must point out that the US, UK and Australisn Governments had good justifaction for war with Iraq. But what is refelected, overwhelmingly, in wikipedia's articles is the criticism, the opposition and the disastrous results. One could argue that this is not a balanced point of view.
But wikipedia is not a three-to-a-side formal debate where the style and refutation is everything and the topic really doesn't matter. Wikipedia is here to present factual information. And if the facts as gleaned from documentary sources and supported by clearly visible primary sources indicate that the restoration of the Sistine Chapel ceiling resulted in losses to the original painting, then that is what must be presented. If writers have frequently expressed the opinion that this is a disaster, then that ought to be presented as well. Amandajm 09:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The books produced by the restorers and those who have an interest in the restoration are successful in justifying why the restoration was done. And they successfully produce a great number of pictures to show that cracks have been repaired, that salty deposists have been removed, that flaking and bubbling has been counteracted (this was fortunately not a major problem) that old structural supports and repairs were checked and stabiliised. These are the benefits of the restoration and all these things are discussed in the article. None of these matters is contentious. There is no negative discussion about this stuff at all, because no-one has made any criticism of these measures whatsoever. This material is simply presented as the facts. Moreover, it has been presented with accuracy and understanding, because, although I have never been involved with a fresco restoration, I am personally well aware of the general conservation (restoration) procedures set in place by the Vatican, and which, if taken as strict guidelines, are really very cautious in their approach. As it happens, they were world leaders in establishing conservation procedures.
The matter of contention is not that the ceiling (and lunettes) was restored. Neither is it the fact that the ceiling was cleaned. The problem lies in the decisions as to what did and did not constitute Michelangelo's intentions, and Michelangelo's own work. It is more at this point than any other that the restorers ought to have erred on the side of caution. They were told. they were warned. They ignored statements by the previous restoration team. They ignored all the arguments put up by critics, painters and art historians. They refused to respond when the whistle was blown. They went ahead anyway. And they did it, taking a universal approach that removed human judgement from the equation, despite a stated position that they would respond to each area of the ceiling as a separate case.
Do you really expect that some member of the team is going to put their hand up and say "I went up there on the scaffold, I looked into the intense and compelling gaze of the figure in the Jesse lunette, and then applied three layers of solvent that removed first the automotive exhaust deposits, then the candlewax and carbon deposits, and thirdly, after those eyes had been clearly revealed by the removal of most of the dirt, the final layer of glue-size and paint, and swabbed the eyes away, leaving two blank sockets." ? That is what somebbody did. That was the decision mmade in relation to that figure. That was the supposed sympathetic response to each individual part of the ceiling.
The facts are plain. When the team started cleaning those areas of lesser importance, eg, the archhiitectural details of the frames around the pics, they could see that every single bit of detail looked similar. But as they cleaned, in some cases it stayed fixed, because it was "fresco" and in some cases it came off because it was "secco". In the ccases where it was secco, the process employed destroyed the details. This was very obviously apparent. A proper response to this obvious loss of detail would have been to take a more cautious approach, bbut that was not done.
I suppose we can just thank God Almighty that Michelangelo painted the eyes of God, and Adam, and Eve in the famous "Creation of Adam" scene while the plaster was still wet. Because if he had painted that particular scene in the dry Italian summer and put the finishing touches at the very end of the day, (as one might expect) then that interaction between God and Adam, and the wondering and slightly alarmed look of Eve as she sees her husband-to-be come to life would have been lost forever due to the restoration.
Yes, the restorers can show a thousand beautifully coloured pictures to support the fact that the ceiling needed cleaning. I have presented ten similar pics in the article that illustrate that point. But they have never justified the approach taken to the cleaning, or discussed the losses of definition. To put it in the simplest possible terms, the compositions, tonal scheme annd details should all be much mmore apparent with the filth lifted. In some areas, eg, the Creation of Adam, this is the case. But in other areas, eg most of the Jonah figure, the Haman scene, many of the lunettes, several of the spandrels, some of the other prophets and many areas of the architecture, the details are greatly diminished. Why? Because they've been removed and Michelangelo's intended finished appearance has been lost.
The full impact of this may be very hard for a person who is not an artist, or art student to comprehend. But we are talking about the most famous frescoes in the world. We are talking about a series of paintings which hhad profound impact on the direction of art, and which have bbeen irreversibly changed, It's like knocking the nose off the sphynx and saying, "Oh yes, but we've removed all the sand so you can see it better."
No-one will ever deny the pleasure of seeing the colours. That point does not need to be proven, and it cannot be used as justification for removing the linear details, the shadows and the eyes that were painted in black. This is the matter that has brought critism and this is the matter that has never been adequately addessed, not even in a $1500 book.
... and as for the National Geographic.... it is easy, as I have said already, to justify the fact of the restoration, the repairs, the stabilisation, and the removal of filth. If you use this as your pro-case, then its very easy to say "oh well, perhaps a few losses are necessary for the greater good." I personally would not expect the National Geographic to present a strongly negative case, in the face of the Vatican.
From a conservation point of view, it was not the fact of the restoration, but its methods and its failure at appropriate response to the specific conditions that are challenged. The irreversible nature of the losses contravenes all good conservation practice. This is the guts of what the critics are saying, and what has been presented here. A large and impressive book funded by a global enterprise might fool the general public, but not anyone who has ever been involved in conservation. I want to point out to you that the critics of the restoration have nothing whatsoever to gain by their opposition. And while the critics keep right on bellowing, independent supporters are strangely silent.
Amandajm ( talk) 02:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Here is a breakdown by word count of the article. It is essentially a rough count because it is affected by formatting.
I do not believe that this article is unbalanced. The opposition constitutes a significant part of the history of the project itself and has been presented as such. I want the POV banner removed.
Amandajm ( talk) 03:42, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
My apology for missing your response. I've been very busy offline. As you said on my talk page, "As I have said before, I came at this from a point of complete neutrality. But as soon as I read the criticisms, I saw with my own eyes that they were correct. Moreover, when I read what the head of the team wrote, I saw how far what they did deviated from "best practices" ie the procedures that were actually laid down by their very own department in the 1970s and remain at the forefront of good conservation practice." That concerns me b/c it makes you appear to have an agenda with the article. Don't get me wrong, this is a very good article. It just needs to have more of a balance. I see Raul has already removed the tag and I'll support that for now. However, I'm going to research this subject more and see if there are valid sources of supporting analysis and opinion missing. If I find there are, I hope you will consider the addition of this info. Otherwise I feel the tag will have to be returned to the article. Best, -- Alabamaboy ( talk) 19:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad you adjusted the wording; but it is't enough that an opinion can be referenced with a footnote: to attain the necessary NPOV you have to explicitely attribute every opinion (in the form of : "According to Mr X etc. etc."). This is very tiresome, I realize, but such a controversial subject simply demands it.-- MWAK ( talk) 12:17, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
As someone relatively new to Wikipedia, I'm having trouble understanding why some topics in Wikipedia are chosen to be articles, instead of being sections of higher order articles. It seems to me, if I were using a paper encyclopedia (which I know Wikipedia is not, no need to send me that link), it would never occur to me to look up Restoration of the Sistine Chapel as a separate entry. Instead, I would expect a long section called "Restoration" under the article "Sistine Chapel," making that article more useful. Does anybody have a rule of thumb as to what qualifies a sub-topic to have its own article? Thanks. BWatkins 17:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Again and again we see a work of art that has been obliterated in some cases due to over enthusiastic restoration. I blame committees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.21.203 ( talk) 22:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Just a small note. The Jesse spandrel eyes were most likely overpainted by someone else. There is clear evidence of the eyes being closed. It's actually referred to in "Michelangelo" by Anthony Hughes. (part of the art and ideas series) 137.22.123.110 ( talk) 06:34, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Then the example of the Jesse Spandrel is a poor example of the problem. When examined the closely her eyes in the original fresco are in the closed position. This was not an uncommon way to depict saints and prophets at the time. I would suggest finding a different example of eyes going missing, as if we are discussing artist intent it would make little sense to paint in fresco eyes closed and then paint eyes in, as a finishing touch. This particular spandrel makes much more sense as meditative with the eyes closed then it does eyes open.
137.22.123.110 (
talk) 21:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
Re Jesse spandrel
Because of the permanence of the fresco technique, if Michelangelo had painted sleeping eyes, in "fresco", then they would still be there for us to see. The only way to remove them would be to scrape off the surface, and replaster it. Simply painting over the top when the plaster was dry would not remove the original.
If you take a look at the comparative pics of Daniel, you can see a change that was made to the edge of the robe. There is a rather ugly little fold that was painted out, very carefully, and the edge neatly higlighted to make the fold disappear. This overpainting was removed in the restoration. The overpainting was so well done, and the detail itself was of such comparative insignificance that it is very hard to believe that some later hand very carefully,and with exceeding competence, modified the master's design, specifically to improve the composition. That is highly unlikely! The little change was almost certainly made by the man himself, in what is called a "pentimenti". Changes made by later restorers were not aimed at improving Michelangelo's design. They were aimed at maintaining its legibility.
Nevertheless, this pentimenti allows us to see very clearly just how little affected the fresco is underneath the addition. In other words, If a later artist painted open eyes over eyes that Michelangelo had painted as closed, then the closed eyes would still be clearly visible, and they are not.
On the other hand, if Michelangelo did not succeed in completing the day's work until the plaster dried, then the completing touch, the painting of the eyes, was done on dry plaster, and did not have the permanence of fresco. Only ambiguous (and possibly misleading) traces now remain.
To put it simply, if Anthony Hughes has written that they eyes were closed, then I disagree with his statement, in the light of what I can see by examining reproductions. You have written here "There is clear evidence of the eyes being closed" but I don't know whether the words "clear evidence" are Hughes' words or your words. The evidence for sleeping eyes is not at all clear to me.
However, if you can locate what Anthony Hughes said, or wrote, it would be a very good thing to have a quote, and a proper citation. If you can lay hands on that info, and put an exact quote to that effect on this page, I will find a way of including it in the article.
Amandajm ( talk) 14:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Why do the eyes look so un-natural. It looks like a corpse. The eyes before were beautiful. They weren't painted by Michelangelo? 86.143.69.170 ( talk) 15:52, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Since I read the article, the issue with the Jesse Spandrel has been addressed. More consensus now, that the "restoration" wasn't. After reading the art-watch in depth analysis and analysing myself somewhat, I came back here to ask about the eyes. "Did Michelangelo paint them?". Defenders of this 'restoration' (and there are many), are trying to say that the eyes within the "Jesse spandrel" were painted as empty sockets. Why? This is arrogance; the new science, the new approach to art. They judge after 500 years. Four years to paint it and 500 years of conservation; to be destroyed by these 'elites'. 86.143.69.170 ( talk) 22:50, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
I just rolled back a whole series of edits by user 96.53.149.117 because nearly all of them were inappropriate.
Amandajm ( talk) 02:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
Please stop treating my summary as if it is a quotation. Amandajm ( talk) 17:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't know where to post it but I saw it here and I post it here.
Human eye has a gaussian response centered to green.
Prophet Daniel painting has a greenish tint on yellow shadows. This was probably done from the artist to simulate real world human eye response under dark conditions. I agree that most of the green shadowing should have been darkened w. carbon on top of it. all light reflecting on the green colour behind the carbon emulates what eye actually sees. Adds to the realism.
Same applies to meauve to red shadowing. Blue is one of the first colors to lose in the dark. Most pigments reflect multiple wavelenghts, meauve reflects red and blue. Blue is lost in the shadows. shadow colored red then darkened, emulates meauve shadowed flawlessly.
I have to agree with the critics on this as well, as again with the carbon black detail loss. Remember, what's in Wikipedia is free for use. Makrisj ( talk) 23:40, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Please move the article to be titled "Conservation and restoration of the Sistine Chapel frescoes". This would be in keeping with the language developed around the article Conservation-restoration of cultural heritage. -- RichardMcCoy ( talk) 23:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
This article is tagged for citations needed, and will need to be submitted to WP:FAR if not brought to FA standard. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:23, 23 November 2020 (UTC)