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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Democratic Party (United States) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 18:45, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I don't know if this issue has been discussed at great length, but the "right wing to far right" label currently in the side box seems inappropriate to me because the Republican Party contains within itself a spectrum of opinion ranging from the centre right to the far right. The fact that Donald Trump's political positions happen to lie farther to the right than earlier presidents does not, in and of itself, indicate that the Republican Party is a "right wing to far right" party; in any other level of government than the executive branch of the federal government, there are many centre-right Republicans who are generally considered to be within the fold of the Republican Party.
One compromise could be to change the side box description of the party to "big tent of the right" as was done with Syriza. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.147.182.16 ( talk) 02:20, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
This is an issue which really deserves attention; at the moment, neither of the two sources in the sidebox describe the Republican Party as either right wing or far right. One of them notes that Steve King associates with far right groups in Europe [1], but it ignores the fact that King was rebuked for these actions by Steve Stivers, head of the National Republican Congressional Committee [2]. The rebuke indicates that we shouldn't be too quick to ignore centre right views in the Republican Party; indeed, the Tuesday Group, which includes 50 members of the House of Representatives, has been described as centrist [3].
There has been much discussion about this issue on the talk page, and it simply isn't enough to have a single user change the article unilaterally without resolving the dispute.
My suggestion to change the political position to "big tent of the right" as was done with Syriza, the ruling party in Greece, stands as a possible resolution to the ongoing dispute. At the very least, we should remove the "political position" section altogether for the moment.
References
Note that the House membership is now 237, in the lame-duck 115th US Congress. GoodDay ( talk) 16:59, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
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This particular line is controversial and an associate professor is the source. I don't think it has enough standing to be in this page. I can't find the sources from the associate professor and if this line is to remain, I think it should be sourced by the actual numbers instead of opinion.
"After the 1960s, whites increasingly identified with the Republican Party.[22]" 204.57.109.142 ( talk) 19:18, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
The body of the article disputes this designation in the infobox. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 13:49, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, it's been well over a year since this has been brought up to a full discussion, and since it's going to have to be done at some point, I figured that I'd bring it up again, and hopefully put the problem to bed for good, invoking WP:CCC, Wikipedia's commitment to a global perspective, and WP:BOLD. The Republican Party has no political position set in the infobox, due to some rather contentious debates about exactly where they fall. Here, I will be laying out an argument for a position(s) which will hopefully be accepted, and will do the same thing, around the same time this is posted, on the Democratic Party talk page as well (although by my rationale, their solution is actually more complex than the one for the Republican Party). ^REMEMBER! This is an argument to place a SOURCED POLITICAL POSITION on the page. Not what you think it should be. All arguments should be clear and backed up with evidence.
Let's start with the first argument: Which political spectrum are we using?
Next, we must take into account what each position stands for in a general sense, so it will fit with the current characteristics the Party exhibits.
OK, so so far, based on the above compromise solution, the Republican Party would be seen as Right-wing [1] [3] [4] [5] [6] in the infobox. Now though, we have to ask if this includes all necessary ideas within the party, and their separate political positions.
In addition:
With all of this taken into consideration, I feel that there is enough here to make this position the new consensus. Below, to judge public opinion, I will create a "Responses" section, where you can either Support, or Oppose this proposed change (type this in bold, followed by your reasoning). If you have any questions/concerns (including about my reasoning above), or are unsure, you can leave a Comment in the "Responses" section, followed by your question/concern. It has taken me a while to formulate this, so I'd appreciate some feedback. I may respond to any concerns. Thanks! HapHaxion ( talk / contribs) 00:17, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Also: an interesting/informative discussion I had on Reddit about the subject is located here.
TL;DR The Republican Party is one of the few remaining political parties to not list a position in the infobox, and each time someone tries to bring it up again to possibly change it, people come in from both sides and it ends in no new consensus. This will keep being an issue/will continue to be brought up until a decision is reached. Some non-political or non-American observers/opinions may be required to avoid perceived bias (See overall talk page section for more). HapHaxion ( talk / contribs) 00:15, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Enter your opinion on this change here, prefacing with either Support, or Oppose in bold, followed by your reasoning, then signing your name after. You can preface with Comment for anything else. good idea how about mine thogh
Support although I have seen pages which have included the "American position" alongside the "Global position". For example something like the Green party would be Centre-left for European parliaments while being Left-wing in American legislatures. -- Hsvkr ( talk) 15:04, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - Not only are both major parties too complex and divided into factions, but also historically there are changes and significant fluctuations. Single terms as "center-right" etc. would simply not be sufficient and adequate. Eventhough most parties have got a position in their infobox, some for certain reasons do not, like Australian parties for instance. In this case one should simply keep it as it is. -- Joobo ( talk) 16:27, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Comment – HapHaxion I appreciate your detailed rationale but it's a bit daunting for readers to get to the point. Could you possibly add a one-line summary of the proposal you are seeking support for? — JFG talk 16:35, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - Broad consensus has been to have no political position, because both parties are big-tent and the section is redundant anyway. Nothing said here is new at all and honestly there is no reason to have this vote. And FYI, "right-wing" is not a compromise. Judging parties by some nonexistent "international" criteria is also silly - on economics Republicans are right, sure, but their views on church-state separation, monarchy, and immigration are well to the left of most right-wing parties. There is no "international" standard. Toa Nidhiki05 20:40, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - Since both parties are more like coalitions, it makes more sense to look at them in terms of factions. The pages for the ideological factions ( Republican Main Street Partnership, Blue Dog Coalition, Congressional Progressive Caucus, etc.) already have positions on the left/right spectrum listed in the infobox. So I don't see the point in adding a position to the pages for the parties. Maybe I'm missing something. I also don't see any compromise in simply using another country (or countries) political spectrum as the basis. Articles for parties in the UK are given a position on the left/right spectrum relative to the UK. So why should it be any different for American parties? Alexander Levian ( talk) 22:48, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Support - I agree that there are many different political ideologies and policies in the republican party, but almost all of them fall under the right-wing umbrella. Because of this, it makes sense to classify the party as right-wing. -- Skipper1931 (be sure to ping me when you reply) ( talk) 19:14, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Question - Doesn't it list things already for ideologies? Skipper1931 (be sure to ping me when you reply) ( talk) 19:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment - I think we should do what is done on the Turkish page (i.e., Center-right (minority) to Right-wing (majority). I'm not sure if that is considered "support" or "oppose". Ezhao02 ( talk) 19:42, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment -- The fact that the Republican and Democratic parties control roughly equal numbers of legislative seats at all levels of government is a strong indication that (by the only measure that really counts) the political center of the country lies roughly midway between the two. All the controversy on this topic arises from politically motivated attempts to label one party more centrist and the other more extreme. In order to forge a compromise for the infobox position it needs to be done at the same time for both party infoboxes and it needs to place the two parties equidistant from the center. A simple "right" and "left" would probably be the easiest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.122.131 ( talk) 22:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Are you saying someone like Susan Collins or Lisa Murkowski would not be considered center-right internationally? They aren't that much more right wing, if at all, than say, Theresa May. George Pataki most certainly is center right. I think the whole "US is more right wing than the rest of the world" line is somewhat exaggerated. On the economic front, it may be truer to an extent, but on the social front? Germany just barely legalized gay marriage yesterday, which the US has had since 2015. Abortion laws in most of western Europe are much stricter than the US (for example, Germany caps at 13 weeks + mandatory counseling and 3 day waiting period prior to receiving one). The GOP is a member of the International Democrat Union of center right parties. I would support center-right to right wing to take into account nuances, would not support standalone right wing. Marquis de Faux ( talk) 19:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Comment – Also as a heads up: Joobo seems to have been blocked for various POV violations ("WP:DE, WP:IDHT, WP:TE, WP:NOTHERE, WP:POV, etc" as stated on talk page), so take his comments with a grain of salt if possible if it looks like he is trying to push a certain idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HapHaxion ( talk • contribs) 01:26, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Just as a gauge, since using Right-wing as an umbrella term for diversity from center-right to hard right and as a comparison to common center-right parties being liberal-conservative in nature seems to be a stretch, would everyone be up for doing something along the lines of what Ezhao02 ( talk) suggested? That way Right-wing wouldn't group in the moderate center-right faction but would still condense the remainder of the party (hard righters and current mainstreamers) enough to avoid confusion. HapHaxion ( talk / contribs) 05:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
in my opinion it just seems insane to not write anything about the party's position. for starters it's a bit hypocritical.(i.e i assume that a disproportionate number of english wikipedia editors are from the united states due to language) labeling other countries parties as right wing or left wing(i.e instead of center right center left or leaving it blank) while ignoring the elephant in the room(pun intended) logically speaking is there anyone who thinks that this is not a right of the centre party? it's common sense really. obamacare is a center-right wing program.(for confirmation you can even look at the programs of some libertarian parties in europe). if a majority of a party opposes it ,then that makes it a right wing party. it's no nuclear science — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.59.205 ( talk) 22:12, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
in a previous post someone mentioned susan collins as centre right by international standards..doesn't the recent tax bill( and the way it was rushed usually seen only in other kinds of olitical regimes) disprove this claim? the only moderates seem to exist on a state level alone. fidesz is listed as "centre right to right wing" even though by the standards of hungary it's the centre right. now i personally think it should be just right wing(on social issued anyway) but my point is that for uniformity's sake alone we should do the same for the GOP. still a joke IMO for the word "Centre" to be on the GOP's page but not to the extend of leaving nothing.failing that we should at least remove the ideological party classification from every political party on earth. 200 countries or so. or perhaps judge every country by the USA's spectrum. yeah i think i'll go to the conservative party(UK) page and write "mild leftists" if you think this is ridiculous they you see my point!! we can't apply one standard to every single country on earth EXCEPT the united states also is there a way to hold a vote on this issue? 2A02:2149:847E:3700:E4CF:1101:1795:D7A3 ( talk) 12:27, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment/general support I agree that the GOP should be considered "Center-right" because it encompasses much political territory to the right of the mean. However: I strongly support making a distinction between American and International (or Western) conceptions of the political spectrum. As Nationalists/Populists have gained ground in the Party, it is starting to look less Center-right, and more in the mold of the Law and Justice Party of Poland or UKIP. Both of these parties de-emphasize Conservative dogma, in favor of nationalism. Also, Law and Justice has a Christian Right thing going on, just like the GOP. This is a rather long-winded way of saying that these parties are useful analogs when thinking about the modern Republican Party. My advice is to look at their wikipages. -- Inspector Semenych ( talk) 23:07, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Comment/general oppose Centre-right politicians in Europe do not dare to propose half of the privatization and deregulation that the Republican Party proposes. The economic libertarian laissez-faire positions of the Republican Party are without a doubt far-right on the international level. The current Republican Party proposes full privatization of the healthcare industry, which is extreme by even a moderate American's standards. There is practically no debate that the GOP is far-right in economic positions.
As for the social positions of the Republican Party: An abortion ban for anything past 6 weeks, half the party still opposed to gay-marriage, a trans military ban, and privatized prisons. Positions such as voting for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and having interest in foreign nations and spreading American values are solid right wing behaviors representing
Neoconservatism. Building a wall on the border, and mass deportation is also very similar to European far-right groups' platforms. The protectionist trade policy is very similar to many nativist policy platforms of far-right European populism.
Authoritarian positions: death penalty, punitive drug policy, near ban of abortion, 24/7 government surveillance, Mass deportation, military bans, proposed authorizing torture (even waterboarding), and increases in spending on the largest military in the world.
The Centre-right has become sort of a fringe among the Republican Party. Even Obama has stated that he'd consider himself a moderate Republican in the 1980s
[8]. The fact of the matter is that party polarization is real, and has caused the Republican Party to make once fringe movements, such as the Tea Party, mainstream. The Freedom caucus and Tea party along with Trump would have already pushed any remaining moderates into at least being independents. It must be said, however, that increased acceptance of LGBTQ people, increased climate change awareness, and libertarian factions keep the party from solely being far-right. The most moderate of Republicans remaining can only be considered Right-wing on the international scale, and the mainstream Republican can only appropriately be placed at Far-right.
In Conclusion: I do not hope to contribute in bias manner, but I hope that we can reach a consensus that is not based on compromise for the sake of it, but rather on truth. The moderate Republican of past has now become an independent, and the mainstream Republican has taken, by international standards, far-right positions [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14].
This section is a mess. I have fixed it up somewhat by removing unsourced material. I have tagged the section, as it needs expansion, context, and more sources. The primary problem is that the section talks about various factions of the party in a muddled, disorganized way without making any effort to define the terms it is using. SunCrow ( talk) 17:39, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
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It is not fair to only say that senate majority leader Mitch McConnell blocked President Obama's supreme court nomination in the last year of his second term without also pointing out that this action had been suggested at the end of President Reagan's second term. The implication is that this action was some new action devised by the Republican party. It was not.
A sentence or two should be added at the end of that paragraph such as:
"However, this action had been earlier suggested by Senator Joe Biden near the end of President Ronald Reagan's second term and was described as a way to allow some degree of the public's direct participation in the process due to the upcoming presidential election. Although not a law, it has become known as the "Biden Rule"." Concern for complete truth ( talk) 04:15, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
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The republican party at that time did not discrimate in federal policies that was the democrat party. why are you lying? 2604:6000:1011:A14A:156E:3BA:5AC3:5502 ( talk) 18:37, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I move that this entire section of the article be removed. Op-eds have no place being used as sources on Wikipedia, even op-eds written by academics and masquerading as academic work-product. The heavy use of moralistic terminology "misuse" "abuse" "obstructed" "undermining democracy" "constitutional norms" should be enough to can this section for absurdly transparent bias. I realize the editors on this site have a left-wing tilt but can you please try to control yourselves just a bit? This section of the article could theoretically be improved by the introduction of certain historical information that pre-dates say, 1992. I realize that's like going back to the Pleistocene for some of us, but please recall Cicero's words "To be ignorant of the world that existed before you were born is to remain forever a child."
Newt Gingrich did not, in fact, introduce the concept of inflammatory political rhetoric, and any attempt to suggest he made it worse in an objective measurable way is partisan special pleading: Orwell was observing as far back as the 1940s that the term fascist had already become a generic political insult. The first contested US presidential election between Adams and Jefferson featured accusations of hermaphroditism, and women burying their Bibles for fear Jefferson would somehow ban Christianity. Lyndon Johnson's insinuation during the election of 1964 that Barry Goldwater as president would mean America's children being incinerated in a nuclear inferno was I suppose in some sense, unprecedented. Did it signal the Democratic party "undermining democratic norms"? The examples could be multiplied a thousandfold. Much of the remainder of the section is nothing more than a series of political scientists being very very upset that Mitch McConnell is more effective as a legislative leader than they wish he was. The nonsense about Merrick Garland being treated in an "unprecedented" manner is in a sense technically true, but might be improved by some additional "unprecedented" events from slightly earlier history, to wit: The equally unprecedented series of bald-faced lies told by "Lion of the Senate" and vehicular manslaughter perpetrator Edward "Ted" Kennedy (D-MA) about Robert H. Bork during his confirmation hearings. The unprecedented practice of trying to deny Clarence Thomas a seat on the Supreme Court based on unproven and unprovable rumours that he engaged in such felonious conduct as making jokes about pubic hair and renting pornographic video tapes. The unprecedented discovery in 1973, by the Supreme Court, of a right to abortion in the U.S. Constitution. This event was unprecedented in the sense that a right to abortion can not actually be found anywhere in the text of the constitution itself and many people both with and without PhD's in political science believe that it was the cause of the treatment received by Bork, Thomas, Garland, et. al. Adding all this information listed above would make the section neutral, balanced, and factual, but would also turn Wikipedia into a political debating forum, which it was not meant to be. Thus I suggest the section be removed entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.63.61.128 ( talk) 22:03, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Are you finished with your rant? You can't make changes to the article without sources supporting them. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Dimadick ( talk) 11:19, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I’ve put an NPOV tag in this section. I have several issues with it: namely, the use of opinion pieces from left-leaning outlets as authoritative sources with no counterbalance, the conflation of the person opinion of political scientists with tested academic work, the lack of any dissenting or comparative views towards the other political party. I also question why we need an entire paragraph on how terrible Newt Gingrich is; this article is about the party, not one person, and so this would likely be better suited for the Newt Gingrich article. Toa Nidhiki05 16:31, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Alas this has controversy highlights one of the deep flaws that appears to be inherent in Wikipedia. We must rely on "reliable sources" by "recognized experts" which of course in practice means that any nonsense published by someone with an academic job can be passed off on this site. Hume's distinction between facts and values is of eternal relevance, and we should try to stick to the facts, even if political scientists rightly or wrongly believe they can do both. If Wikipedia had existed in the early 20th century I'm sure the website would have been infected with "reliable sources" written by all manner of special pleading pro-Eugenics "recognized experts". And dismissing what I wrote originally as a "rant"" without engaging with any of the obvious historical problems with the analysis presented by those "recognized experts" is the purest example of the argument from authority one can find. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.63.61.60 ( talk) 21:37, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof has reverted a series of edits I made, most of which relate to the "Democracy" section of the article. This section has accuracy, balance, and POV problems and has been tagged accordingly. I am reinstating some of the edits that I believe to be non-controversial and will present other proposed edits for discussion here. SunCrow ( talk) 18:02, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
I am getting static from Snooganssnoogans for having again removed the assertion that Newt Gingrich "impeached President Clinton in a partisan fashion." First of all, individual members of Congress do not impeach anyone. Second of all, some House Democrats voted to impeach Clinton, which makes the rest of the assertion questionable at best. SunCrow ( talk) 02:56, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
User:Snooganssnoogans removed this content I added to the "democracy" section:
Senate Republicans justified this by pointing to a speech from then-Senate Majority Leader Joe Biden in 1992, who argued for postposing any potential hearings from a Supreme Court nomination, should it arise, until after the election. [18] [19] Biden contested this interpretation of his speech. [19]
His only explanation was that it is WP:FRINGE to contradict other sources. I'm not exactly what is fringe about proving the Republican explanation for their action, cited to news articles in two highly-reliable sources (The New York Times and Washington Post) and Joe Biden's rebuttal of that claim, but I'd love to hear answers. Toa Nidhiki05 18:22, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
The tradition going back to the 1880s has been if a vacancy occurs in a presidential election year, and there is a different party in control of the Senate than the presidency, it is not filled
I’m not even sure why we’re having this discussion, but should we attribute sources in-text to the people that authored them? WP:INTEXT says:
In-text attribution should be used with direct speech (a source's words between quotation marks or as a block quotation); indirect speech (a source's words modified without quotation marks); and close paraphrasing. It can also be used when loosely summarizing a source's position in your own words. It avoids inadvertent plagiarism and helps the reader see where a position is coming from. An inline citation should follow the attribution, usually at the end of the sentence or paragraph in question.
Toa Nidhiki05 21:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
In-text attribution should be used with direct speech (a source's words between quotation marks or as a block quotation);
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 15 |
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Democratic Party (United States) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 18:45, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
I don't know if this issue has been discussed at great length, but the "right wing to far right" label currently in the side box seems inappropriate to me because the Republican Party contains within itself a spectrum of opinion ranging from the centre right to the far right. The fact that Donald Trump's political positions happen to lie farther to the right than earlier presidents does not, in and of itself, indicate that the Republican Party is a "right wing to far right" party; in any other level of government than the executive branch of the federal government, there are many centre-right Republicans who are generally considered to be within the fold of the Republican Party.
One compromise could be to change the side box description of the party to "big tent of the right" as was done with Syriza. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.147.182.16 ( talk) 02:20, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
This is an issue which really deserves attention; at the moment, neither of the two sources in the sidebox describe the Republican Party as either right wing or far right. One of them notes that Steve King associates with far right groups in Europe [1], but it ignores the fact that King was rebuked for these actions by Steve Stivers, head of the National Republican Congressional Committee [2]. The rebuke indicates that we shouldn't be too quick to ignore centre right views in the Republican Party; indeed, the Tuesday Group, which includes 50 members of the House of Representatives, has been described as centrist [3].
There has been much discussion about this issue on the talk page, and it simply isn't enough to have a single user change the article unilaterally without resolving the dispute.
My suggestion to change the political position to "big tent of the right" as was done with Syriza, the ruling party in Greece, stands as a possible resolution to the ongoing dispute. At the very least, we should remove the "political position" section altogether for the moment.
References
Note that the House membership is now 237, in the lame-duck 115th US Congress. GoodDay ( talk) 16:59, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
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This particular line is controversial and an associate professor is the source. I don't think it has enough standing to be in this page. I can't find the sources from the associate professor and if this line is to remain, I think it should be sourced by the actual numbers instead of opinion.
"After the 1960s, whites increasingly identified with the Republican Party.[22]" 204.57.109.142 ( talk) 19:18, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
The body of the article disputes this designation in the infobox. Snooganssnoogans ( talk) 13:49, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
As far as I'm aware, it's been well over a year since this has been brought up to a full discussion, and since it's going to have to be done at some point, I figured that I'd bring it up again, and hopefully put the problem to bed for good, invoking WP:CCC, Wikipedia's commitment to a global perspective, and WP:BOLD. The Republican Party has no political position set in the infobox, due to some rather contentious debates about exactly where they fall. Here, I will be laying out an argument for a position(s) which will hopefully be accepted, and will do the same thing, around the same time this is posted, on the Democratic Party talk page as well (although by my rationale, their solution is actually more complex than the one for the Republican Party). ^REMEMBER! This is an argument to place a SOURCED POLITICAL POSITION on the page. Not what you think it should be. All arguments should be clear and backed up with evidence.
Let's start with the first argument: Which political spectrum are we using?
Next, we must take into account what each position stands for in a general sense, so it will fit with the current characteristics the Party exhibits.
OK, so so far, based on the above compromise solution, the Republican Party would be seen as Right-wing [1] [3] [4] [5] [6] in the infobox. Now though, we have to ask if this includes all necessary ideas within the party, and their separate political positions.
In addition:
With all of this taken into consideration, I feel that there is enough here to make this position the new consensus. Below, to judge public opinion, I will create a "Responses" section, where you can either Support, or Oppose this proposed change (type this in bold, followed by your reasoning). If you have any questions/concerns (including about my reasoning above), or are unsure, you can leave a Comment in the "Responses" section, followed by your question/concern. It has taken me a while to formulate this, so I'd appreciate some feedback. I may respond to any concerns. Thanks! HapHaxion ( talk / contribs) 00:17, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Also: an interesting/informative discussion I had on Reddit about the subject is located here.
TL;DR The Republican Party is one of the few remaining political parties to not list a position in the infobox, and each time someone tries to bring it up again to possibly change it, people come in from both sides and it ends in no new consensus. This will keep being an issue/will continue to be brought up until a decision is reached. Some non-political or non-American observers/opinions may be required to avoid perceived bias (See overall talk page section for more). HapHaxion ( talk / contribs) 00:15, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
Enter your opinion on this change here, prefacing with either Support, or Oppose in bold, followed by your reasoning, then signing your name after. You can preface with Comment for anything else. good idea how about mine thogh
Support although I have seen pages which have included the "American position" alongside the "Global position". For example something like the Green party would be Centre-left for European parliaments while being Left-wing in American legislatures. -- Hsvkr ( talk) 15:04, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - Not only are both major parties too complex and divided into factions, but also historically there are changes and significant fluctuations. Single terms as "center-right" etc. would simply not be sufficient and adequate. Eventhough most parties have got a position in their infobox, some for certain reasons do not, like Australian parties for instance. In this case one should simply keep it as it is. -- Joobo ( talk) 16:27, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Comment – HapHaxion I appreciate your detailed rationale but it's a bit daunting for readers to get to the point. Could you possibly add a one-line summary of the proposal you are seeking support for? — JFG talk 16:35, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - Broad consensus has been to have no political position, because both parties are big-tent and the section is redundant anyway. Nothing said here is new at all and honestly there is no reason to have this vote. And FYI, "right-wing" is not a compromise. Judging parties by some nonexistent "international" criteria is also silly - on economics Republicans are right, sure, but their views on church-state separation, monarchy, and immigration are well to the left of most right-wing parties. There is no "international" standard. Toa Nidhiki05 20:40, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose - Since both parties are more like coalitions, it makes more sense to look at them in terms of factions. The pages for the ideological factions ( Republican Main Street Partnership, Blue Dog Coalition, Congressional Progressive Caucus, etc.) already have positions on the left/right spectrum listed in the infobox. So I don't see the point in adding a position to the pages for the parties. Maybe I'm missing something. I also don't see any compromise in simply using another country (or countries) political spectrum as the basis. Articles for parties in the UK are given a position on the left/right spectrum relative to the UK. So why should it be any different for American parties? Alexander Levian ( talk) 22:48, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
Support - I agree that there are many different political ideologies and policies in the republican party, but almost all of them fall under the right-wing umbrella. Because of this, it makes sense to classify the party as right-wing. -- Skipper1931 (be sure to ping me when you reply) ( talk) 19:14, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Question - Doesn't it list things already for ideologies? Skipper1931 (be sure to ping me when you reply) ( talk) 19:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment - I think we should do what is done on the Turkish page (i.e., Center-right (minority) to Right-wing (majority). I'm not sure if that is considered "support" or "oppose". Ezhao02 ( talk) 19:42, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment -- The fact that the Republican and Democratic parties control roughly equal numbers of legislative seats at all levels of government is a strong indication that (by the only measure that really counts) the political center of the country lies roughly midway between the two. All the controversy on this topic arises from politically motivated attempts to label one party more centrist and the other more extreme. In order to forge a compromise for the infobox position it needs to be done at the same time for both party infoboxes and it needs to place the two parties equidistant from the center. A simple "right" and "left" would probably be the easiest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.122.131 ( talk) 22:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Are you saying someone like Susan Collins or Lisa Murkowski would not be considered center-right internationally? They aren't that much more right wing, if at all, than say, Theresa May. George Pataki most certainly is center right. I think the whole "US is more right wing than the rest of the world" line is somewhat exaggerated. On the economic front, it may be truer to an extent, but on the social front? Germany just barely legalized gay marriage yesterday, which the US has had since 2015. Abortion laws in most of western Europe are much stricter than the US (for example, Germany caps at 13 weeks + mandatory counseling and 3 day waiting period prior to receiving one). The GOP is a member of the International Democrat Union of center right parties. I would support center-right to right wing to take into account nuances, would not support standalone right wing. Marquis de Faux ( talk) 19:33, 1 July 2017 (UTC)
Comment – Also as a heads up: Joobo seems to have been blocked for various POV violations ("WP:DE, WP:IDHT, WP:TE, WP:NOTHERE, WP:POV, etc" as stated on talk page), so take his comments with a grain of salt if possible if it looks like he is trying to push a certain idea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HapHaxion ( talk • contribs) 01:26, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
Comment - Just as a gauge, since using Right-wing as an umbrella term for diversity from center-right to hard right and as a comparison to common center-right parties being liberal-conservative in nature seems to be a stretch, would everyone be up for doing something along the lines of what Ezhao02 ( talk) suggested? That way Right-wing wouldn't group in the moderate center-right faction but would still condense the remainder of the party (hard righters and current mainstreamers) enough to avoid confusion. HapHaxion ( talk / contribs) 05:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
in my opinion it just seems insane to not write anything about the party's position. for starters it's a bit hypocritical.(i.e i assume that a disproportionate number of english wikipedia editors are from the united states due to language) labeling other countries parties as right wing or left wing(i.e instead of center right center left or leaving it blank) while ignoring the elephant in the room(pun intended) logically speaking is there anyone who thinks that this is not a right of the centre party? it's common sense really. obamacare is a center-right wing program.(for confirmation you can even look at the programs of some libertarian parties in europe). if a majority of a party opposes it ,then that makes it a right wing party. it's no nuclear science — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.66.59.205 ( talk) 22:12, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
in a previous post someone mentioned susan collins as centre right by international standards..doesn't the recent tax bill( and the way it was rushed usually seen only in other kinds of olitical regimes) disprove this claim? the only moderates seem to exist on a state level alone. fidesz is listed as "centre right to right wing" even though by the standards of hungary it's the centre right. now i personally think it should be just right wing(on social issued anyway) but my point is that for uniformity's sake alone we should do the same for the GOP. still a joke IMO for the word "Centre" to be on the GOP's page but not to the extend of leaving nothing.failing that we should at least remove the ideological party classification from every political party on earth. 200 countries or so. or perhaps judge every country by the USA's spectrum. yeah i think i'll go to the conservative party(UK) page and write "mild leftists" if you think this is ridiculous they you see my point!! we can't apply one standard to every single country on earth EXCEPT the united states also is there a way to hold a vote on this issue? 2A02:2149:847E:3700:E4CF:1101:1795:D7A3 ( talk) 12:27, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
Comment/general support I agree that the GOP should be considered "Center-right" because it encompasses much political territory to the right of the mean. However: I strongly support making a distinction between American and International (or Western) conceptions of the political spectrum. As Nationalists/Populists have gained ground in the Party, it is starting to look less Center-right, and more in the mold of the Law and Justice Party of Poland or UKIP. Both of these parties de-emphasize Conservative dogma, in favor of nationalism. Also, Law and Justice has a Christian Right thing going on, just like the GOP. This is a rather long-winded way of saying that these parties are useful analogs when thinking about the modern Republican Party. My advice is to look at their wikipages. -- Inspector Semenych ( talk) 23:07, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Comment/general oppose Centre-right politicians in Europe do not dare to propose half of the privatization and deregulation that the Republican Party proposes. The economic libertarian laissez-faire positions of the Republican Party are without a doubt far-right on the international level. The current Republican Party proposes full privatization of the healthcare industry, which is extreme by even a moderate American's standards. There is practically no debate that the GOP is far-right in economic positions.
As for the social positions of the Republican Party: An abortion ban for anything past 6 weeks, half the party still opposed to gay-marriage, a trans military ban, and privatized prisons. Positions such as voting for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and having interest in foreign nations and spreading American values are solid right wing behaviors representing
Neoconservatism. Building a wall on the border, and mass deportation is also very similar to European far-right groups' platforms. The protectionist trade policy is very similar to many nativist policy platforms of far-right European populism.
Authoritarian positions: death penalty, punitive drug policy, near ban of abortion, 24/7 government surveillance, Mass deportation, military bans, proposed authorizing torture (even waterboarding), and increases in spending on the largest military in the world.
The Centre-right has become sort of a fringe among the Republican Party. Even Obama has stated that he'd consider himself a moderate Republican in the 1980s
[8]. The fact of the matter is that party polarization is real, and has caused the Republican Party to make once fringe movements, such as the Tea Party, mainstream. The Freedom caucus and Tea party along with Trump would have already pushed any remaining moderates into at least being independents. It must be said, however, that increased acceptance of LGBTQ people, increased climate change awareness, and libertarian factions keep the party from solely being far-right. The most moderate of Republicans remaining can only be considered Right-wing on the international scale, and the mainstream Republican can only appropriately be placed at Far-right.
In Conclusion: I do not hope to contribute in bias manner, but I hope that we can reach a consensus that is not based on compromise for the sake of it, but rather on truth. The moderate Republican of past has now become an independent, and the mainstream Republican has taken, by international standards, far-right positions [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14].
This section is a mess. I have fixed it up somewhat by removing unsourced material. I have tagged the section, as it needs expansion, context, and more sources. The primary problem is that the section talks about various factions of the party in a muddled, disorganized way without making any effort to define the terms it is using. SunCrow ( talk) 17:39, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
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It is not fair to only say that senate majority leader Mitch McConnell blocked President Obama's supreme court nomination in the last year of his second term without also pointing out that this action had been suggested at the end of President Reagan's second term. The implication is that this action was some new action devised by the Republican party. It was not.
A sentence or two should be added at the end of that paragraph such as:
"However, this action had been earlier suggested by Senator Joe Biden near the end of President Ronald Reagan's second term and was described as a way to allow some degree of the public's direct participation in the process due to the upcoming presidential election. Although not a law, it has become known as the "Biden Rule"." Concern for complete truth ( talk) 04:15, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
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The republican party at that time did not discrimate in federal policies that was the democrat party. why are you lying? 2604:6000:1011:A14A:156E:3BA:5AC3:5502 ( talk) 18:37, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
I move that this entire section of the article be removed. Op-eds have no place being used as sources on Wikipedia, even op-eds written by academics and masquerading as academic work-product. The heavy use of moralistic terminology "misuse" "abuse" "obstructed" "undermining democracy" "constitutional norms" should be enough to can this section for absurdly transparent bias. I realize the editors on this site have a left-wing tilt but can you please try to control yourselves just a bit? This section of the article could theoretically be improved by the introduction of certain historical information that pre-dates say, 1992. I realize that's like going back to the Pleistocene for some of us, but please recall Cicero's words "To be ignorant of the world that existed before you were born is to remain forever a child."
Newt Gingrich did not, in fact, introduce the concept of inflammatory political rhetoric, and any attempt to suggest he made it worse in an objective measurable way is partisan special pleading: Orwell was observing as far back as the 1940s that the term fascist had already become a generic political insult. The first contested US presidential election between Adams and Jefferson featured accusations of hermaphroditism, and women burying their Bibles for fear Jefferson would somehow ban Christianity. Lyndon Johnson's insinuation during the election of 1964 that Barry Goldwater as president would mean America's children being incinerated in a nuclear inferno was I suppose in some sense, unprecedented. Did it signal the Democratic party "undermining democratic norms"? The examples could be multiplied a thousandfold. Much of the remainder of the section is nothing more than a series of political scientists being very very upset that Mitch McConnell is more effective as a legislative leader than they wish he was. The nonsense about Merrick Garland being treated in an "unprecedented" manner is in a sense technically true, but might be improved by some additional "unprecedented" events from slightly earlier history, to wit: The equally unprecedented series of bald-faced lies told by "Lion of the Senate" and vehicular manslaughter perpetrator Edward "Ted" Kennedy (D-MA) about Robert H. Bork during his confirmation hearings. The unprecedented practice of trying to deny Clarence Thomas a seat on the Supreme Court based on unproven and unprovable rumours that he engaged in such felonious conduct as making jokes about pubic hair and renting pornographic video tapes. The unprecedented discovery in 1973, by the Supreme Court, of a right to abortion in the U.S. Constitution. This event was unprecedented in the sense that a right to abortion can not actually be found anywhere in the text of the constitution itself and many people both with and without PhD's in political science believe that it was the cause of the treatment received by Bork, Thomas, Garland, et. al. Adding all this information listed above would make the section neutral, balanced, and factual, but would also turn Wikipedia into a political debating forum, which it was not meant to be. Thus I suggest the section be removed entirely. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.63.61.128 ( talk) 22:03, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Are you finished with your rant? You can't make changes to the article without sources supporting them. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources: "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Dimadick ( talk) 11:19, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
I’ve put an NPOV tag in this section. I have several issues with it: namely, the use of opinion pieces from left-leaning outlets as authoritative sources with no counterbalance, the conflation of the person opinion of political scientists with tested academic work, the lack of any dissenting or comparative views towards the other political party. I also question why we need an entire paragraph on how terrible Newt Gingrich is; this article is about the party, not one person, and so this would likely be better suited for the Newt Gingrich article. Toa Nidhiki05 16:31, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Alas this has controversy highlights one of the deep flaws that appears to be inherent in Wikipedia. We must rely on "reliable sources" by "recognized experts" which of course in practice means that any nonsense published by someone with an academic job can be passed off on this site. Hume's distinction between facts and values is of eternal relevance, and we should try to stick to the facts, even if political scientists rightly or wrongly believe they can do both. If Wikipedia had existed in the early 20th century I'm sure the website would have been infected with "reliable sources" written by all manner of special pleading pro-Eugenics "recognized experts". And dismissing what I wrote originally as a "rant"" without engaging with any of the obvious historical problems with the analysis presented by those "recognized experts" is the purest example of the argument from authority one can find. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.63.61.60 ( talk) 21:37, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
NorthBySouthBaranof has reverted a series of edits I made, most of which relate to the "Democracy" section of the article. This section has accuracy, balance, and POV problems and has been tagged accordingly. I am reinstating some of the edits that I believe to be non-controversial and will present other proposed edits for discussion here. SunCrow ( talk) 18:02, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
I am getting static from Snooganssnoogans for having again removed the assertion that Newt Gingrich "impeached President Clinton in a partisan fashion." First of all, individual members of Congress do not impeach anyone. Second of all, some House Democrats voted to impeach Clinton, which makes the rest of the assertion questionable at best. SunCrow ( talk) 02:56, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
User:Snooganssnoogans removed this content I added to the "democracy" section:
Senate Republicans justified this by pointing to a speech from then-Senate Majority Leader Joe Biden in 1992, who argued for postposing any potential hearings from a Supreme Court nomination, should it arise, until after the election. [18] [19] Biden contested this interpretation of his speech. [19]
His only explanation was that it is WP:FRINGE to contradict other sources. I'm not exactly what is fringe about proving the Republican explanation for their action, cited to news articles in two highly-reliable sources (The New York Times and Washington Post) and Joe Biden's rebuttal of that claim, but I'd love to hear answers. Toa Nidhiki05 18:22, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
The tradition going back to the 1880s has been if a vacancy occurs in a presidential election year, and there is a different party in control of the Senate than the presidency, it is not filled
I’m not even sure why we’re having this discussion, but should we attribute sources in-text to the people that authored them? WP:INTEXT says:
In-text attribution should be used with direct speech (a source's words between quotation marks or as a block quotation); indirect speech (a source's words modified without quotation marks); and close paraphrasing. It can also be used when loosely summarizing a source's position in your own words. It avoids inadvertent plagiarism and helps the reader see where a position is coming from. An inline citation should follow the attribution, usually at the end of the sentence or paragraph in question.
Toa Nidhiki05 21:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
In-text attribution should be used with direct speech (a source's words between quotation marks or as a block quotation);
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