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Frankly, I don't see the point in separating theses two articles: the Republic of Bou Regreg was just another name of the Republic of Salè to include Rabat and the Kasbah. But both are really one and the same thing: having two articles just confuses the issues.
Actually, the Republic of Bou Regreg (including Rabat and the Kasbah) lasted till 1668. And the Republic of Salè article gives, in my view, too much importance to such people as Jan Janszoon, who left in 1627, that is, before the Republic of Salé became independant from the King of Morocco (by the way, I rather doubt this recurring mention of "first President of the Republic". Can anywone source it with a serious book, not just web sources?). -- Azurfrog ( talk) 22:32, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm curious, Why did you (and others elsewhere) assume spanish? As I understand it there were renegado's there from all over Europe, plus others from North Africa & parts of the Ottoman Empire and the city existed before the pirates came so I doubt the local's spoke spanish. Is there some source that I'm unaware of that indicates that spanish served as a lingua-franca or sort of de-facto official language amongst the pirates? cheers, Gecko G ( talk) 00:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Why do you say Jan Janszoon left Salé in 1627? I thought there were two records of him being there in 1630? Supposedly a journal entry of the Dutch Commissioner Antonio Keyser from 23 April & a memoir of the English envoy to Morocco John Harrison dated 8 October. Rogoziński (Pirates! Brigands, Buccaneers, and Privateers in fact, fiction, and legend. 1995. pg. 230) even claims he was in charge there until 1631, but I don't know what his source for that is. Gecko G ( talk) 01:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. Discussion may certainly continue as to the best name for this article, but it is at least clear that the new title is an improvement over the old one, which was unsupported in sources, and which, as is noted below, everyone agrees was wrong. GTBacchus( talk) 20:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Republic of Salè →
Republic of Salé — The proposed spelling is the one found in academic books on this subject (e.g., the Cambridge History of Islam). Current spelling is a misprint. Problem is, I can't do it myself because of the history of "Republic of Salé". --
Azurfrog (
talk) 19:38, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Current name is just a misprint, so that it has been possible to use later
Republic of Salé as a redirect to
Jan Janszoon, aka Jan Janz, one of Salé's Grand Admirals. Even then, this redirect was highly questionable, as Jan Janszoon was Grand Admiral of Salé before it became an independant Republic (i.e., in 1627). But all these articles (
Republic of Salè,
Republic of Salé,
Jan Janszoon,
Republic of Bou Regreg) are currently very messy and poorly connected. All are far from serious historical sources (that's the problem when using primarily Web sources rather than books). --
Azurfrog (
talk) 11:22, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |first published=
ignored (
help) (Coindreau's 1948 book is by far the most comprehensive source devoted to Salé, as all of its 243 pages are solely about the Republic of Salé, and has been re-used as the reference by all later authors).{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help) Now, Míkel de Epalza's study is in Spanish (let's remember that the Sallee Rovers were coming from Spain, and spoke Spanish), and he spells the place "Salé" just as well.{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link). And indeed, the Cambridge history of Islam is also spelling it "Salé".Agreed that we should aim that the new title can't be challenged on any ground, but as you mentioned it yourself above, the Cambridge History of Islam is giving it as Salé, not Sale, nor anything else.
Full citation: P. M. Holt,Ann K. S. Lambton,Bernard Lewis (1977).
The Cambridge History of Islam, Volume 2. Cambridge University Press.
ISBN
9780521291378.{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link). So that Salé, with this accent, is the proper English spelling anyway; but I'll try and make sure about what Wikipedia might say about it. --
Azurfrog (
talk) 07:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't know what French source is used here (using French authors for this topic is strange, and source of many errors) but the Moriscos from Hornachos who founded Salé did not leave "anticipating an expulsion". The "Hornacheros" were the main target of the expulsion order in Castile which specifically mentioned them. However, they were treated gently by Spanish authorities, who allowed them to keep their weapons during their march down from Hornachos to Seville and travel to Morocco. I would assume that all left, not just the rich ones, since the entire town of Hornachos was Muslim and aggressively independent of outside authority. Asilah1981 ( talk) 14:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Frankly, I don't see the point in separating theses two articles: the Republic of Bou Regreg was just another name of the Republic of Salè to include Rabat and the Kasbah. But both are really one and the same thing: having two articles just confuses the issues.
Actually, the Republic of Bou Regreg (including Rabat and the Kasbah) lasted till 1668. And the Republic of Salè article gives, in my view, too much importance to such people as Jan Janszoon, who left in 1627, that is, before the Republic of Salé became independant from the King of Morocco (by the way, I rather doubt this recurring mention of "first President of the Republic". Can anywone source it with a serious book, not just web sources?). -- Azurfrog ( talk) 22:32, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm curious, Why did you (and others elsewhere) assume spanish? As I understand it there were renegado's there from all over Europe, plus others from North Africa & parts of the Ottoman Empire and the city existed before the pirates came so I doubt the local's spoke spanish. Is there some source that I'm unaware of that indicates that spanish served as a lingua-franca or sort of de-facto official language amongst the pirates? cheers, Gecko G ( talk) 00:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Why do you say Jan Janszoon left Salé in 1627? I thought there were two records of him being there in 1630? Supposedly a journal entry of the Dutch Commissioner Antonio Keyser from 23 April & a memoir of the English envoy to Morocco John Harrison dated 8 October. Rogoziński (Pirates! Brigands, Buccaneers, and Privateers in fact, fiction, and legend. 1995. pg. 230) even claims he was in charge there until 1631, but I don't know what his source for that is. Gecko G ( talk) 01:14, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. Discussion may certainly continue as to the best name for this article, but it is at least clear that the new title is an improvement over the old one, which was unsupported in sources, and which, as is noted below, everyone agrees was wrong. GTBacchus( talk) 20:56, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Republic of Salè →
Republic of Salé — The proposed spelling is the one found in academic books on this subject (e.g., the Cambridge History of Islam). Current spelling is a misprint. Problem is, I can't do it myself because of the history of "Republic of Salé". --
Azurfrog (
talk) 19:38, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Current name is just a misprint, so that it has been possible to use later
Republic of Salé as a redirect to
Jan Janszoon, aka Jan Janz, one of Salé's Grand Admirals. Even then, this redirect was highly questionable, as Jan Janszoon was Grand Admiral of Salé before it became an independant Republic (i.e., in 1627). But all these articles (
Republic of Salè,
Republic of Salé,
Jan Janszoon,
Republic of Bou Regreg) are currently very messy and poorly connected. All are far from serious historical sources (that's the problem when using primarily Web sources rather than books). --
Azurfrog (
talk) 11:22, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: Unknown parameter |first published=
ignored (
help) (Coindreau's 1948 book is by far the most comprehensive source devoted to Salé, as all of its 243 pages are solely about the Republic of Salé, and has been re-used as the reference by all later authors).{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |accessdate=
(
help) Now, Míkel de Epalza's study is in Spanish (let's remember that the Sallee Rovers were coming from Spain, and spoke Spanish), and he spells the place "Salé" just as well.{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link). And indeed, the Cambridge history of Islam is also spelling it "Salé".Agreed that we should aim that the new title can't be challenged on any ground, but as you mentioned it yourself above, the Cambridge History of Islam is giving it as Salé, not Sale, nor anything else.
Full citation: P. M. Holt,Ann K. S. Lambton,Bernard Lewis (1977).
The Cambridge History of Islam, Volume 2. Cambridge University Press.
ISBN
9780521291378.{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link). So that Salé, with this accent, is the proper English spelling anyway; but I'll try and make sure about what Wikipedia might say about it. --
Azurfrog (
talk) 07:57, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't know what French source is used here (using French authors for this topic is strange, and source of many errors) but the Moriscos from Hornachos who founded Salé did not leave "anticipating an expulsion". The "Hornacheros" were the main target of the expulsion order in Castile which specifically mentioned them. However, they were treated gently by Spanish authorities, who allowed them to keep their weapons during their march down from Hornachos to Seville and travel to Morocco. I would assume that all left, not just the rich ones, since the entire town of Hornachos was Muslim and aggressively independent of outside authority. Asilah1981 ( talk) 14:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)