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I have to say that this article now has quite a bizarre opening, based on a mistaken elevation of the Republic of Ireland Act by supporters of the "status quo". The Constitution is the supreme legal document for the Irish state, it constitutes the state and names it. It is clearly of higher logical and legal status that the aforementioned Act. The name of the state in English is Ireland. When the constitution was originally adopted jurisdiction was claimed for the entire island. Since the adoption of the Belfast Agreement by referendum, the claim of jurisdiction on Northern Ireland was rescinded. Please respect the sovereign right of the people to name their own state. Deepsoulstarfish 01:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am not personally of an Irish nationalist persuasion.
This article purports to be about the state. Ireland is the legal name of the state, and is recognised as such in International law. My main point is that the Republic of Ireland act is legally irrelevant. It is superceeded by the consitution. The Constitution actually legally constitutes the state.The UK government signs international agreements with the government of "Ireland".
The political context of the Republic of Ireland act is quite complex, and must be inderstood in terms of the Irish Civil war and Anglo-Irish treaty, and contentious disputes over symbolism within Irish nationalism. Unlike "French Republic", "Irish republic" has particular connotations in Irish political culture. For instance, this latter formulation would never be used on RTÉ, the state broadcaster. The main thing though is that the Repubilc of Ireland act is just an act of parliament, and is not the primary legal document of the state.
I don't believe Wikipedia should be biased toward any political point of view, I think it should clearly note that certain names and symbols on this island are very politicized. The present solution of elevating the Republic of Ireland Act both misrepresents the actual legal position, and in doing so is insensitive to certain traditions here.
There is indeed a Republic of Ireland soccer team. You might also note that there are soccer teams representing Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England, and none of these overlap with states. Also, note that the Ireland rugby team, does not represent the state - indeed it counts among its members loyal British subjects, who realise that sporting territory and political jurisdiction do not have to overlap. Then there are Gaelic sports which are organised on an all-Ireland basis. The incongruent sporting jurisdictions reflect the island's complex history .
In summary, because the article was named Republic of Ireland, we have to get a big spiel about an obscure act. The article should be called Ireland (state), since the name of the state which the article is about is Ireland. By all means, mention that sometimes people use the phrase Republic of Ireland for clarity. But to use the first paragraph of an article about the Irish state outlining the Republic of Ireland act is really misleading as to the relative status of the act in Ireland's history.
Deepsoulstarfish 02:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, this very article is linked from the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_states_since_1171 and in an accompanying box diagram. The "Republic of Ireland" is being purported to be a successor state to an earlier Irish state, starting in 1949, as if the "Republic of Ireland" (the entity covered by this article) succeeded the state named Ireland in the 1937 constitution. To my knowledge no such entity was created in 1949, and would love to see any scholarly works which imply there was. This is really very misleading. Deepsoulstarfish 03:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The Supreme Court has ruled on the matter, this has been ably explained by someone knowledgeable at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:%C3%89ire. The case is (Ellis v O’Dea [1989] I.R. 530). So indeed the name Republic of Ireland has been ruled unconstitutional. The judgement goes so far as to rule invalid extraditions not naming the state correctly. The legal position could not be clearer. And the Irish goverment has come to agreements with the UK government to ensure that our state is named correctly by them, after some decades of misnaming which clearly offended sensitivities in Ireland. Yet more recently the government has indicated that the geographical term British Isles is not acceptable in Irish textbooks. As regards sensitivities, it all has to do with the word "republic" in the Irish context, and the history of divisions on the island.
As regards soccer teams, we are talking about the state, and not football teams. I'm not sure how the name of a soccer team has a relevance in the correct naming of a state. A state is a legal entity. It's really a red herring.
I'm just wondering what the motivation is in misnaming the state in this way? How many of those who voted on this are actually citizens of the state?
I think I can see where you are coming from, and maybe I am being overly legalistic. The main problem I have is that the article begins with a speel about the Republic of Ireland Act, rather than saying that Republic of Ireland is an informal way of referring to Ireland, the state, and then getting on with describing that state. By emphasising this 1948 Act, and then the UK's Ireland Act, it drags up a fractious issue in Irish politics, in a rather naive way. If one is to bring up those Acts, then it should be explained at the outset that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland /the North has been disputed for most of the last century, and that Ireland was named Ireland precisely so as to not differentiate between the island and state, since jurisdiction on the entire island was claimed in the 1937 constitution. Much more preferable to say that "Republic of Ireland" is an informal term used to describe the state named Ireland.
I think my points about sport must have been badly explained. That "Republic of Ireland" is the configuration used by our soccer team is controversial. Many on this island would like an all-Ireland soccer team. The origination of the sporting configurations are all influenced by the politics of the island. One doesn't have to take a side to recognise that there are divisions on this island as to where borders should be placed. The symbolism of non-differentiation between island and state is very important to many nationalists. Deepsoulstarfish 01:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I conceed to you on everything you say there. Well thought out and very well argued points Nuclare. Deepsoulstarfish 02:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
That's a very good point Sony-youth, and I yield on that score.
I think I am more concerned at the misleading nature of the notion that some new state was founded in 1948 called the Republic of Ireland. This is just factually wrong. The idea is reproduced in the figure at the bottom of the article, with the Republic of Ireland state founded in 1948 and pointing back to this article called Republic of Ireland. So it's one thing to name an article the Republic of Ireland, it is another thing to insinuate that the name of this article accurately reflects a political entity founded in 1948. The article called France equivalent claims about "France".
As the article also contains references to the Ireland Act which was passed by the UK parliament in response to the Republic of Ireland act, I think the artlicle is clearly biased towards a Unionist interpretation of the Republic of Ireland Act. This was convenienty interpreted as a new state replacing the one of 1937 which claimed all Ireland jurisdiction, the point being to legally copperfasten partition. But the actual effect in Irish law of the Republic of Ireland Act was not at this level at all. No new state was established and the 1937 constitution which claimed jurisdiction over the entire island stood, with the jurisdictional claim standing until the Belfast Agreement referendum. So please, can we have some balance in this article, and not history from a British Unionist perspective. Let us please respect both traditions with parity of esteem.
Deepsoulstarfish 14:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually someone corrected it at 15.30 yesterday afternoon, in the article on Irish states that the figure box comes from, mentioning that they were merging two items which in actual fact referred to the same state. So the main inaccuracy has been corrected. Thanks to whoever did that. Deepsoulstarfish 00:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
My vote is.....for Ireland the country and Ireland (island) for the island. Anything else is simply incorrect. It also causes problems when linking to international lists and ratings (as I recently discoverd); most of them (other than some UK produced ones) use the correct name for RoI - Ireland. I am even wondering should we be having a vote? If someone decided to call Israel "the Zionist Entity" would the wiki editors accept it even if the vote was carried? The State I live in is IRELAND, fact. And the term "RoI" is imposed by FIFA on the football team to distinguish it from the IFA (N.Ireland) team which had title to the original "Ireland".
In common usage our team is usually called simply 'Ireland' by most people; even when playing N.I the games are commonly referred to as 'Ireland v. Northern Ireland' ( Sarah777 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
Can't agree Keith. The name 'Northern Ireland' was created to make the distinction; and it is the official name of 'the six counties' or 'Ulster'. Ireland is the official name of the South. ( Sarah777 00:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC))
This discussion has made no reference to Wikipedia guidelines for article names. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions. The relevant specific guidelines for this debate are Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). The name of a Wikipedia article is not required to be the name of the entity described in the article. The article title is intended primarily to make it easy to find the article (for reading or linking). The name of the entity described in the article can itself be described in the article; this is much more flexible than trying to encapsulate it in the article's title. jnestorius( talk) 01:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
What about Polish and other minorities (I mean people from new EU countries)? And maybe other Irish people with foreign origin ( Asian, Black). About 8% of Irish population are Poles (from Polityka, leading weekly magazine in Poland). And from other sources we know other numbers- over 100,000 Poles, 80,000-90,000.... What do you think? Kowalmistrz 15:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think such stats are relevant and should be included - but I'd like to see a more relaible source than one saying "100,000 to 200,000"; 100% variation is a bit large! Maybe the CSO has some relevant data? Bastun 16:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Isn't the term "Republic of Ireland" a nickname and it's actually used as the official Wiki title of the article about the state called Ireland? Which must make Ireland the only state on English Wiki that isn't given the respect of having its Official Constitutional name (also the name the vast majority of its inhabitants prefer) in the title of the article about it.
Frankly I'm sick of this. It isn't a matter of debate or Wiki voters - it is a matter of FACT. This vast thread above has not produced a single valid argument that Ireland is not legal name of the state referred to in Wiki by the nickname RoI".
I move to change the name the article about Ireland (the state) to "Ireland". To avoid confusion the article about the island can be call "The Island of Ireland" or "Ireland, the Island". Northern Ireland can keep the name it has in British Law.
It is time to end this nonsense where Wikipedians who, in the main, are not citizens or residents of Ireland are imposing a nickname on our country. Enough. ( Sarah777 19:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
And btw, the fact that the South is called something else in some British Law decades before our constitution was in place is irrelevant. This NAME MUST CHANGE. ( Sarah777 19:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
And I note regarding the "vote" a year ago (presided over by an argumentative partisan) - of the 32 votes for the nickname "Republic of Ireland" only SEVEN were from citizens of Ireland living in Ireland; 18 were foreign and a further 7 indeterminate. If there was a vote on Arabic Wiki to call Israel "The Zionist Entity" and it was carried, would Wiki allow that? No way! And I find the nickname RoI offensive. I want my country called by its legal, Constitutional name. ( Sarah777 20:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
Sorry Sony, I disagree. And I'd be obliged if you wouldn't advise me to 'consult a dictionary' in such a patronising manner. But I took your advise anyway and found "substitue for a person or thing's real name". QED.
Red King dealt with some of your other errors; but I will not remain as sanguine as he. In the France/UK/Germany cases the article name is a shortened version of a rather long official name; nicknames in effect. In the case of 'Ireland' the OFFICIAL, Constitutional name is the shortest and easiest.
And "the South" is far more common currency than "The Republic of Ireland" in the day to day language of the citizens of the state - yet it was declared a 'nickname' and deleted from the BODY of the 'Ireland (island)' article!
The Derry judgement in fact makes me MORE annoyed at the continued attempted imposition of British nomenclature on this country; whether the argument is about "the British Islaes", Derry or Ireland.
Enough is enough. The name of this state, the preferred name of most of the citizens of this state, the shortest of the alternatives is IRELAND. Full stop. Change the name. ( Sarah777 22:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
Oddly the German version of Wiki can get it right: Irland aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie (Weitergeleitet von Republik Irland) Wechseln zu: Navigation, Suche
Or maybe not so odd; it appears that it is only (part of) the Anglophone world has difficulty calling the country by it's proper name! (
Sarah777
23:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
"I suspect you get annoyed when Unionist politicians use the term Ulster for Northern Ireland, because it is an arrogant presumption that the three Ulster counties that are not in their jurisdiction don't matter. Sauce for the goose etc." - well, actually I couldn't give a toss what the Unionists call "their" part of the UK; Wiki calls it Northern Ireland, which is the legal name, in the same way that Ireland is the name of the state of which Dublin is the largest city. Don't suspect or assume - that is as bad as patronising. If you want to get into the politics of the Northern Statelet I'm more than happy to go there, and then some. But I won't be the instigator, and I wouldn't have thought Wiki was the place for measuring the illegitimacy of the Sundered Six!
"The jurisdiction of the State does not extend to the whole island" - irrelevant. The LEGAL name of the state is Ireland. We could call it "Tuesday" if we wished; the point is that WE have the right to decide what it is called and no coven of largely British editors in Wiki have any right to dismiss our name on the politically motivated grounds of alleged "arrogance". The referendum on the Good Friday Agreement dropped the constitutional claim to the Six Counties; it DID NOT change the name of the country.
Which, btw, is IRELAND.
( Sarah777 04:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
And Sony, while you keep advising me to consult better dictionaries may I suggest you actually read what you are responding to?
"And 'the South' is far more common currency than 'The Republic of Ireland' in the day to day language of the citizens of the state" - that is what I wrote.
"more common currency than 'The Republic of Ireland' internationally? Wow"- is your misrepresentation of what I wrote.
No wonder you can't get the name of the country right.
Which, btw, as I must continue to point out, is IRELAND.
( Sarah777 04:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
OK, So maybe being on a rather boring night-shift finds work for the devil in my periodically idle typing hands to do! But I'm right and ye are wrong....if someone in Europe asks me where I am from it is Ireland, simple. Not Ulster, "the South", the RoI - just Ireland, just as they will say they are from Spain or Germany or Italy. Unless I made a point of saying I was from NI the almost universal assumption (outside the UK) would be that I live in the state that contains DUBLIN. ( Sarah777 05:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
The opinion of an Irish citizen, born and bred: keep the article names as they are now, per the reasons stated by Sony-youth and Red King. Not for a minute, though, do I accept that an article can only be edited or have a policy set by people from that place. Bastun 10:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
IndeedBastun. And not for a minute will I accept that mere numbers should decide the naming of articles based on political bias when their view runs counter to the facts. And Sony as for "Barry, thanks for some sensible talk." – that is a clear implication that my pov is not sensible; unless you have a personal dictionary that defines "sensible" as "agrees with Sony".
So far you have told me to consult a dictionary, then consult a better dictionary (maybe lend me yours), Red King has a whole series of assumptions and political opinions attributed to me – incorrectly, based on my very focused argument about the refusal to name the Ireland article properly.
And I read that politeness is uber ales on these Wiki talk pages!
And as for my correction of the error in the box, that was in part to illustrate that once you start polluting common facts with political judgements you are going to have alternative political views asserted. Perhaps you think Ireland wasn't occupied 1800 - 1920? You seem to have deduced my whole pov from that; all I did was correct a rather obvious omission.
I have still not read any reason, other than a certain political slant, to keep this article called Ireland – rather than the more correct and appropriate IRELAND, with the Island of Ireland called exactly that.
Like it says on the tin. Without the political bias. ( Sarah777 21:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Indeed Red, though I must point out the citizens of Derry call it Derry, (you are a bit weak at assigning political pov to people!), there not being many DUP folk living there; and until the citizens of Derry get the legal name-change there will be continued use of 'Londonderry'. The only reason Derry gets into the title of the City in Wiki, not the County, is that until the recent Court case everyone thought the City was renamed bar the rubber stamp. Also, I resent your use of the term 'Stroke City', a needless attack on the good folk of the Maiden City. ( Sarah777 22:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Gracious apology accepted Sony; I do veer into rudeness myself betimes! I will let this issue rest for now as it is using valuable Wikitime; my exciting article on the R747, The Jumbo Road, from Arklow to the N9 has had to be deferred because of all this disputation! ( Sarah777 23:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
I know this coversation has rather moved on, but there's a statement that was made above that I find to be so false, I just can't but correct it: "Continued use of the RoI form is rarely used outside the UK (and in soccer)." Where one gets the idea that "Republic of Ireland" is some kind of biased British usage is beyond me. I just don't get it. I almost never hear U.K. sources refer to 'RoI.' I know this is random and anecdotal, but for those Irish people who feel offended by RoI, I'm afraid to break it to you but your nation's official tourism agency (www.ireland.ie and the official all-island tourism site, www.discoverireland.com) end all addresses for accomodation within the RoI's counties with just that: "Republic of Ireland." The state is being advertised to the world by its official agencies as Republic of Ireland. The poor tourists are being lured to a country referred to as Republic of Ireland. I also recently saw an official-seeming advert in a trade magazine trying to bring companies to Ireland advertising the "Highly Educated Workforce of the Republic of Ireland." So, apparently, they're even trying to bring companies into the state by referring to it as Republic of Ireland. Nuclare 05:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
What's with the revert war over the map? Why are the parties failing to discuss the issue here? -- Red King 00:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
can we agree to keep the standard one that has been around for ages until the new one is agreed by consensus? that seems resonable to me Fabhcún 09:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I propose that we rewrite the introduction to something like the following:
This would allow us to use Éire or Ireland as primary identifiers elsewhere in the article and Republic of Ireland where clarity is needed. I've put Éire first as this is the name of the state. The conjunction or in the constitution is important as it mean that in Irish the name is Éire, whilst in English it is Éire or Ireland, and, to me, implies that Éire is preferred ("the name of the state is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland").
Putting this upfront would also, in my opinion clarify, the Ireland, Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland article names without compromising on state names.
What do others think?
-- sony-youth talk 11:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, having Éire as the primary name makes a syntactic break between the state name and the states "description"/name of the article, reinforcing that the name of the article is not the name of the state. -- sony-youth talk 11:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Having the first bolded reference to something other than the article title would would be unusual, I think? It does seem permitted, though: WP:MoS Having said that, I'd be against it. The English-language name for the state is Ireland, and this is the English-language Wikipedia. It really grates when I hear Ireland referred to as 'Éire' on a UK news programme. Bastun 12:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Like Bastun, before I became so cosmopolitan, I used to be irritated to hear Éire used as it was only used by the British. But in keeping with my view on naming we can hardly complain. WE, citizens of 'Éire Ireland' (as we have now called ourselves in the EU), are the people who named the country officially Éire or Ireland and put Éire on coins, stamps and official documents. So while, not being an Irish speaker, I prefer Ireland, Éire is fine, so long as we make it clear that that isn't the name in the English language. Maybe Éire Ireland - that is what sits in front of our representatives in the EU nowadays, at our own request. ( Sarah777 21:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Mind you, I note that in all three cases cited above (Denmark, Israel, Belgium) the article name is the common name used through the world to describe the countries. As IRELAND is in the case of Ireland; with the almost sole exception of some folk in neighbouring jurisdictions the state that contains Dublin is known simply as Ireland.
The fact that Israel is surrounded by hundreds of millions of people who call it something else does not prevent the article title being the preferred name of it's citizens. And unlike the State of Israel, at least we now know where the borders of Ireland actually are. At least since 1997. ( Sarah777 21:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Oppose strongly. This is en.wiki, not ga.wiki. In all the articles you cite, the English language version is given first, followed by its translation in the national language(s). Check the Constitution. The name of the state in the English language is Ireland; the name of the state in the Irish language is Éire. The proposal is illiterate. -- Red King 22:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Clarification: What I meant by this proposal was not to get drawn into an argument about whether the emboldened name should be Éire or Ireland. Frankly, in the English language, I think they're equivalent. What I meant by the suggestion was to de-embolden Republic of Ireland and put the name of the state front and centre. Whether that be Éire or Ireland, personally I'm don't care that much. -- sony-youth talk 22:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
So Red, are you strongly supportingcalling the atricle IRELAND? I second that, again. ( Sarah777 22:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Ireland (in Irish : Éire) is a sovereign state which covers approximately eighty-five percent of the surface area of the island of Ireland, off the coast of north-west Europe. It is also known as Republic of Ireland ( Irish: Poblacht na hÉireann), the official description [1] that marked its ceasing to be a British Dominion and a member of the Commonwealth in 1948. This form is used if needed to distinguish between Ireland (the state) and Ireland (the island). In international protocol, the name "Ireland" should be used. Residents usually refer to the country as Ireland: the usage "Republic of Ireland" is limited to the national soccer team. It is a member of the European Union, has a developed economy and a population of slightly more than 4.2 million [2]. The remaining part of the island of Ireland is known as Northern Ireland and is part of the United Kingdom.
People I think its just a bad idea placing emphasis on anything other that the article title in the article. We all know that the official name of the state is "Ireland", but as the article name is "Republic of Ireland" then it is the latter that must be used most prominantly, we can off course mention the official name, "Ireland" but not firstly and more prominantly. If people want to use "Ireland" firslty/prominantly then the only way to achive that is a successful move request (that will effect many articles) and not a confusing mixture of Ireland/Republic of Ireland. Eire is totally out of question as whatever people believe it is an Irish word and this is the English wikipedia... Djegan 01:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I still think Republic of Ireland should be moved to Ireland and the current Ireland be moved to Ireland (island), but the rewording is better than the current intro. -- Barry talk 01:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd obviously agree with Barry; but as we seem stuck with this "RoI" name for now then Sony's suggestion is a good one. I'd actually go one step further and not embolden "Republic of Ireland" at all - to emphasise that this is more a political disambiguation than a conventional article title. ( Sarah777 02:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC))
- Ireland ( Irish: Éire) is a sovereign state which covers approximately eighty-five percent of the surface area of the island of Ireland, off the coast of north-west Europe. It is also formally "described" [3] as The Republic of Ireland ( Irish: Poblacht na hÉireann), though modern local usage tends to restrict this to refer to the national soccer team or to disambiguate from the island. It is a member of the European Union, has a developed economy and a population of slightly more than 4.2 million [4]. The remaining part of the island of Ireland is known as Northern Ireland and is part of the United Kingdom.
Is was unaware that the proper naming of this article is related to the naming of the Derry article; it may explain some of the apparently unrelated stuff written by Red King in response to my comments on THIS article. And may I point out to Red, again, that the vast majority of the citizens of Derry want the City called Derry, as clearly expressed through their elected representatives. (Not Stroke City, or Londonderry).
"that is not going to happen unless Derry moves to Londonderry" Red, do you have some special power in relation to this matter? I was under the illusion we were all writing here as equals?
- Ireland ( Irish: Éire) is a sovereign state which covers approximately eighty-five percent of the surface area of the island of Ireland, off the coast of north-west Europe. It is also formally "described" [5] as The Republic of Ireland ( Irish: Poblacht na hÉireann), though FIFA refers to the Ireland team as the Republic of Ireland national football team. The term is also one of several terms used to to disambiguate Ireland the state from the Ireland the island. It is a member of the European Union, has a developed economy and a population of slightly more than 4.2 million [6]. The remaining part of the island of Ireland is known as Northern Ireland and is part of the United Kingdom.
There - that's a much better effort. ( Sarah777 07:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC))
The article needs to be consistant with the article title and not manifest a manner of confusion; as the location is Republic of Ireland so to should that be used most prominantly rather than Ireland. Been inconsistant with this will only serve to be ambiguous and confusing, particularily with regard to other articles, categories and general usage. What will changing the current text do apart from been ambiguous and confusing? The status quo is an effective way of conveying reality and the only way to vary it is a move request. Djegan 18:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
As the 'Derry' article keeps getting drawn in here I must agree absolutely with Angus and point out to Djegan that Londonderryis in bold in the article with the title 'Derry'. Regarding the name 'Derry', until the very recent court case it was widely assumed that Derry was the new name; as it is now clear that Londonderry will remain the legal name the article should now be renamed Londonderry. (It might even prod the citizens of Derry to take more effective action to get the name changed - if they really care that much). ( Sarah777 00:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC))
Rewrite proposed above beginning Ireland is a definite improvement. Another (even better) idea might be to have articles both on Ireland (state) and Republic of Ireland (a description of the Irish State). The latter article could explain the term Republic of Ireland, replete with references to FIFA and the ROI Act. I'm not sure the point about the Irish Soccer team is justified being in the first paragraph of an article about the Irish State. This is the problem, by calling the article Republic of Ireland, the article must get bogged down in that term in the first paragraph. In conclusion - can we please rename, ie move? Just my 2 cents. Incidentally, is Peter Canavan from the Republic of Ireland? Surely he is a Gaelic Football star from the United Kingdom? Deepsoulstarfish 00:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
People I have to stand by my conviction that the name of this article is "Republic of Ireland". Having a opening paragraph that backseats that name is illogical. If I am the "only" person who supports "Republic of Ireland" then have a move request and do it right. But no failed compromises. This issue has been discussed and voted on previously. The name of the article is "Republic of Ireland" - thats the consensus and the article should refect that. Djegan 16:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi DJ, I have no problem with the article about Londonderry. The idea of binding us to an earlier vote (how many voted?) is not really fair. I wasn't around for one, and these things have to be revisited. This encyclopaedia will be around for a long time. A vote among a handful of people in 2006 shouldn't set things in stone. Deepsoulstarfish 19:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I have to say that this article now has quite a bizarre opening, based on a mistaken elevation of the Republic of Ireland Act by supporters of the "status quo". The Constitution is the supreme legal document for the Irish state, it constitutes the state and names it. It is clearly of higher logical and legal status that the aforementioned Act. The name of the state in English is Ireland. When the constitution was originally adopted jurisdiction was claimed for the entire island. Since the adoption of the Belfast Agreement by referendum, the claim of jurisdiction on Northern Ireland was rescinded. Please respect the sovereign right of the people to name their own state. Deepsoulstarfish 01:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me preface my remarks by saying that I am not personally of an Irish nationalist persuasion.
This article purports to be about the state. Ireland is the legal name of the state, and is recognised as such in International law. My main point is that the Republic of Ireland act is legally irrelevant. It is superceeded by the consitution. The Constitution actually legally constitutes the state.The UK government signs international agreements with the government of "Ireland".
The political context of the Republic of Ireland act is quite complex, and must be inderstood in terms of the Irish Civil war and Anglo-Irish treaty, and contentious disputes over symbolism within Irish nationalism. Unlike "French Republic", "Irish republic" has particular connotations in Irish political culture. For instance, this latter formulation would never be used on RTÉ, the state broadcaster. The main thing though is that the Repubilc of Ireland act is just an act of parliament, and is not the primary legal document of the state.
I don't believe Wikipedia should be biased toward any political point of view, I think it should clearly note that certain names and symbols on this island are very politicized. The present solution of elevating the Republic of Ireland Act both misrepresents the actual legal position, and in doing so is insensitive to certain traditions here.
There is indeed a Republic of Ireland soccer team. You might also note that there are soccer teams representing Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, and England, and none of these overlap with states. Also, note that the Ireland rugby team, does not represent the state - indeed it counts among its members loyal British subjects, who realise that sporting territory and political jurisdiction do not have to overlap. Then there are Gaelic sports which are organised on an all-Ireland basis. The incongruent sporting jurisdictions reflect the island's complex history .
In summary, because the article was named Republic of Ireland, we have to get a big spiel about an obscure act. The article should be called Ireland (state), since the name of the state which the article is about is Ireland. By all means, mention that sometimes people use the phrase Republic of Ireland for clarity. But to use the first paragraph of an article about the Irish state outlining the Republic of Ireland act is really misleading as to the relative status of the act in Ireland's history.
Deepsoulstarfish 02:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, this very article is linked from the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_states_since_1171 and in an accompanying box diagram. The "Republic of Ireland" is being purported to be a successor state to an earlier Irish state, starting in 1949, as if the "Republic of Ireland" (the entity covered by this article) succeeded the state named Ireland in the 1937 constitution. To my knowledge no such entity was created in 1949, and would love to see any scholarly works which imply there was. This is really very misleading. Deepsoulstarfish 03:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The Supreme Court has ruled on the matter, this has been ably explained by someone knowledgeable at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:%C3%89ire. The case is (Ellis v O’Dea [1989] I.R. 530). So indeed the name Republic of Ireland has been ruled unconstitutional. The judgement goes so far as to rule invalid extraditions not naming the state correctly. The legal position could not be clearer. And the Irish goverment has come to agreements with the UK government to ensure that our state is named correctly by them, after some decades of misnaming which clearly offended sensitivities in Ireland. Yet more recently the government has indicated that the geographical term British Isles is not acceptable in Irish textbooks. As regards sensitivities, it all has to do with the word "republic" in the Irish context, and the history of divisions on the island.
As regards soccer teams, we are talking about the state, and not football teams. I'm not sure how the name of a soccer team has a relevance in the correct naming of a state. A state is a legal entity. It's really a red herring.
I'm just wondering what the motivation is in misnaming the state in this way? How many of those who voted on this are actually citizens of the state?
I think I can see where you are coming from, and maybe I am being overly legalistic. The main problem I have is that the article begins with a speel about the Republic of Ireland Act, rather than saying that Republic of Ireland is an informal way of referring to Ireland, the state, and then getting on with describing that state. By emphasising this 1948 Act, and then the UK's Ireland Act, it drags up a fractious issue in Irish politics, in a rather naive way. If one is to bring up those Acts, then it should be explained at the outset that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland /the North has been disputed for most of the last century, and that Ireland was named Ireland precisely so as to not differentiate between the island and state, since jurisdiction on the entire island was claimed in the 1937 constitution. Much more preferable to say that "Republic of Ireland" is an informal term used to describe the state named Ireland.
I think my points about sport must have been badly explained. That "Republic of Ireland" is the configuration used by our soccer team is controversial. Many on this island would like an all-Ireland soccer team. The origination of the sporting configurations are all influenced by the politics of the island. One doesn't have to take a side to recognise that there are divisions on this island as to where borders should be placed. The symbolism of non-differentiation between island and state is very important to many nationalists. Deepsoulstarfish 01:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I conceed to you on everything you say there. Well thought out and very well argued points Nuclare. Deepsoulstarfish 02:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
That's a very good point Sony-youth, and I yield on that score.
I think I am more concerned at the misleading nature of the notion that some new state was founded in 1948 called the Republic of Ireland. This is just factually wrong. The idea is reproduced in the figure at the bottom of the article, with the Republic of Ireland state founded in 1948 and pointing back to this article called Republic of Ireland. So it's one thing to name an article the Republic of Ireland, it is another thing to insinuate that the name of this article accurately reflects a political entity founded in 1948. The article called France equivalent claims about "France".
As the article also contains references to the Ireland Act which was passed by the UK parliament in response to the Republic of Ireland act, I think the artlicle is clearly biased towards a Unionist interpretation of the Republic of Ireland Act. This was convenienty interpreted as a new state replacing the one of 1937 which claimed all Ireland jurisdiction, the point being to legally copperfasten partition. But the actual effect in Irish law of the Republic of Ireland Act was not at this level at all. No new state was established and the 1937 constitution which claimed jurisdiction over the entire island stood, with the jurisdictional claim standing until the Belfast Agreement referendum. So please, can we have some balance in this article, and not history from a British Unionist perspective. Let us please respect both traditions with parity of esteem.
Deepsoulstarfish 14:10, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually someone corrected it at 15.30 yesterday afternoon, in the article on Irish states that the figure box comes from, mentioning that they were merging two items which in actual fact referred to the same state. So the main inaccuracy has been corrected. Thanks to whoever did that. Deepsoulstarfish 00:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
My vote is.....for Ireland the country and Ireland (island) for the island. Anything else is simply incorrect. It also causes problems when linking to international lists and ratings (as I recently discoverd); most of them (other than some UK produced ones) use the correct name for RoI - Ireland. I am even wondering should we be having a vote? If someone decided to call Israel "the Zionist Entity" would the wiki editors accept it even if the vote was carried? The State I live in is IRELAND, fact. And the term "RoI" is imposed by FIFA on the football team to distinguish it from the IFA (N.Ireland) team which had title to the original "Ireland".
In common usage our team is usually called simply 'Ireland' by most people; even when playing N.I the games are commonly referred to as 'Ireland v. Northern Ireland' ( Sarah777 22:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC))
Can't agree Keith. The name 'Northern Ireland' was created to make the distinction; and it is the official name of 'the six counties' or 'Ulster'. Ireland is the official name of the South. ( Sarah777 00:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC))
This discussion has made no reference to Wikipedia guidelines for article names. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions. The relevant specific guidelines for this debate are Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). The name of a Wikipedia article is not required to be the name of the entity described in the article. The article title is intended primarily to make it easy to find the article (for reading or linking). The name of the entity described in the article can itself be described in the article; this is much more flexible than trying to encapsulate it in the article's title. jnestorius( talk) 01:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
What about Polish and other minorities (I mean people from new EU countries)? And maybe other Irish people with foreign origin ( Asian, Black). About 8% of Irish population are Poles (from Polityka, leading weekly magazine in Poland). And from other sources we know other numbers- over 100,000 Poles, 80,000-90,000.... What do you think? Kowalmistrz 15:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I think such stats are relevant and should be included - but I'd like to see a more relaible source than one saying "100,000 to 200,000"; 100% variation is a bit large! Maybe the CSO has some relevant data? Bastun 16:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Isn't the term "Republic of Ireland" a nickname and it's actually used as the official Wiki title of the article about the state called Ireland? Which must make Ireland the only state on English Wiki that isn't given the respect of having its Official Constitutional name (also the name the vast majority of its inhabitants prefer) in the title of the article about it.
Frankly I'm sick of this. It isn't a matter of debate or Wiki voters - it is a matter of FACT. This vast thread above has not produced a single valid argument that Ireland is not legal name of the state referred to in Wiki by the nickname RoI".
I move to change the name the article about Ireland (the state) to "Ireland". To avoid confusion the article about the island can be call "The Island of Ireland" or "Ireland, the Island". Northern Ireland can keep the name it has in British Law.
It is time to end this nonsense where Wikipedians who, in the main, are not citizens or residents of Ireland are imposing a nickname on our country. Enough. ( Sarah777 19:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
And btw, the fact that the South is called something else in some British Law decades before our constitution was in place is irrelevant. This NAME MUST CHANGE. ( Sarah777 19:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
And I note regarding the "vote" a year ago (presided over by an argumentative partisan) - of the 32 votes for the nickname "Republic of Ireland" only SEVEN were from citizens of Ireland living in Ireland; 18 were foreign and a further 7 indeterminate. If there was a vote on Arabic Wiki to call Israel "The Zionist Entity" and it was carried, would Wiki allow that? No way! And I find the nickname RoI offensive. I want my country called by its legal, Constitutional name. ( Sarah777 20:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
Sorry Sony, I disagree. And I'd be obliged if you wouldn't advise me to 'consult a dictionary' in such a patronising manner. But I took your advise anyway and found "substitue for a person or thing's real name". QED.
Red King dealt with some of your other errors; but I will not remain as sanguine as he. In the France/UK/Germany cases the article name is a shortened version of a rather long official name; nicknames in effect. In the case of 'Ireland' the OFFICIAL, Constitutional name is the shortest and easiest.
And "the South" is far more common currency than "The Republic of Ireland" in the day to day language of the citizens of the state - yet it was declared a 'nickname' and deleted from the BODY of the 'Ireland (island)' article!
The Derry judgement in fact makes me MORE annoyed at the continued attempted imposition of British nomenclature on this country; whether the argument is about "the British Islaes", Derry or Ireland.
Enough is enough. The name of this state, the preferred name of most of the citizens of this state, the shortest of the alternatives is IRELAND. Full stop. Change the name. ( Sarah777 22:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
Oddly the German version of Wiki can get it right: Irland aus Wikipedia, der freien Enzyklopädie (Weitergeleitet von Republik Irland) Wechseln zu: Navigation, Suche
Or maybe not so odd; it appears that it is only (part of) the Anglophone world has difficulty calling the country by it's proper name! (
Sarah777
23:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC))
"I suspect you get annoyed when Unionist politicians use the term Ulster for Northern Ireland, because it is an arrogant presumption that the three Ulster counties that are not in their jurisdiction don't matter. Sauce for the goose etc." - well, actually I couldn't give a toss what the Unionists call "their" part of the UK; Wiki calls it Northern Ireland, which is the legal name, in the same way that Ireland is the name of the state of which Dublin is the largest city. Don't suspect or assume - that is as bad as patronising. If you want to get into the politics of the Northern Statelet I'm more than happy to go there, and then some. But I won't be the instigator, and I wouldn't have thought Wiki was the place for measuring the illegitimacy of the Sundered Six!
"The jurisdiction of the State does not extend to the whole island" - irrelevant. The LEGAL name of the state is Ireland. We could call it "Tuesday" if we wished; the point is that WE have the right to decide what it is called and no coven of largely British editors in Wiki have any right to dismiss our name on the politically motivated grounds of alleged "arrogance". The referendum on the Good Friday Agreement dropped the constitutional claim to the Six Counties; it DID NOT change the name of the country.
Which, btw, is IRELAND.
( Sarah777 04:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
And Sony, while you keep advising me to consult better dictionaries may I suggest you actually read what you are responding to?
"And 'the South' is far more common currency than 'The Republic of Ireland' in the day to day language of the citizens of the state" - that is what I wrote.
"more common currency than 'The Republic of Ireland' internationally? Wow"- is your misrepresentation of what I wrote.
No wonder you can't get the name of the country right.
Which, btw, as I must continue to point out, is IRELAND.
( Sarah777 04:54, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
OK, So maybe being on a rather boring night-shift finds work for the devil in my periodically idle typing hands to do! But I'm right and ye are wrong....if someone in Europe asks me where I am from it is Ireland, simple. Not Ulster, "the South", the RoI - just Ireland, just as they will say they are from Spain or Germany or Italy. Unless I made a point of saying I was from NI the almost universal assumption (outside the UK) would be that I live in the state that contains DUBLIN. ( Sarah777 05:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
The opinion of an Irish citizen, born and bred: keep the article names as they are now, per the reasons stated by Sony-youth and Red King. Not for a minute, though, do I accept that an article can only be edited or have a policy set by people from that place. Bastun 10:38, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
IndeedBastun. And not for a minute will I accept that mere numbers should decide the naming of articles based on political bias when their view runs counter to the facts. And Sony as for "Barry, thanks for some sensible talk." – that is a clear implication that my pov is not sensible; unless you have a personal dictionary that defines "sensible" as "agrees with Sony".
So far you have told me to consult a dictionary, then consult a better dictionary (maybe lend me yours), Red King has a whole series of assumptions and political opinions attributed to me – incorrectly, based on my very focused argument about the refusal to name the Ireland article properly.
And I read that politeness is uber ales on these Wiki talk pages!
And as for my correction of the error in the box, that was in part to illustrate that once you start polluting common facts with political judgements you are going to have alternative political views asserted. Perhaps you think Ireland wasn't occupied 1800 - 1920? You seem to have deduced my whole pov from that; all I did was correct a rather obvious omission.
I have still not read any reason, other than a certain political slant, to keep this article called Ireland – rather than the more correct and appropriate IRELAND, with the Island of Ireland called exactly that.
Like it says on the tin. Without the political bias. ( Sarah777 21:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Indeed Red, though I must point out the citizens of Derry call it Derry, (you are a bit weak at assigning political pov to people!), there not being many DUP folk living there; and until the citizens of Derry get the legal name-change there will be continued use of 'Londonderry'. The only reason Derry gets into the title of the City in Wiki, not the County, is that until the recent Court case everyone thought the City was renamed bar the rubber stamp. Also, I resent your use of the term 'Stroke City', a needless attack on the good folk of the Maiden City. ( Sarah777 22:42, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Gracious apology accepted Sony; I do veer into rudeness myself betimes! I will let this issue rest for now as it is using valuable Wikitime; my exciting article on the R747, The Jumbo Road, from Arklow to the N9 has had to be deferred because of all this disputation! ( Sarah777 23:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
I know this coversation has rather moved on, but there's a statement that was made above that I find to be so false, I just can't but correct it: "Continued use of the RoI form is rarely used outside the UK (and in soccer)." Where one gets the idea that "Republic of Ireland" is some kind of biased British usage is beyond me. I just don't get it. I almost never hear U.K. sources refer to 'RoI.' I know this is random and anecdotal, but for those Irish people who feel offended by RoI, I'm afraid to break it to you but your nation's official tourism agency (www.ireland.ie and the official all-island tourism site, www.discoverireland.com) end all addresses for accomodation within the RoI's counties with just that: "Republic of Ireland." The state is being advertised to the world by its official agencies as Republic of Ireland. The poor tourists are being lured to a country referred to as Republic of Ireland. I also recently saw an official-seeming advert in a trade magazine trying to bring companies to Ireland advertising the "Highly Educated Workforce of the Republic of Ireland." So, apparently, they're even trying to bring companies into the state by referring to it as Republic of Ireland. Nuclare 05:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
What's with the revert war over the map? Why are the parties failing to discuss the issue here? -- Red King 00:52, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
can we agree to keep the standard one that has been around for ages until the new one is agreed by consensus? that seems resonable to me Fabhcún 09:53, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
I propose that we rewrite the introduction to something like the following:
This would allow us to use Éire or Ireland as primary identifiers elsewhere in the article and Republic of Ireland where clarity is needed. I've put Éire first as this is the name of the state. The conjunction or in the constitution is important as it mean that in Irish the name is Éire, whilst in English it is Éire or Ireland, and, to me, implies that Éire is preferred ("the name of the state is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland").
Putting this upfront would also, in my opinion clarify, the Ireland, Republic of Ireland, and Northern Ireland article names without compromising on state names.
What do others think?
-- sony-youth talk 11:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, having Éire as the primary name makes a syntactic break between the state name and the states "description"/name of the article, reinforcing that the name of the article is not the name of the state. -- sony-youth talk 11:36, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Having the first bolded reference to something other than the article title would would be unusual, I think? It does seem permitted, though: WP:MoS Having said that, I'd be against it. The English-language name for the state is Ireland, and this is the English-language Wikipedia. It really grates when I hear Ireland referred to as 'Éire' on a UK news programme. Bastun 12:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Like Bastun, before I became so cosmopolitan, I used to be irritated to hear Éire used as it was only used by the British. But in keeping with my view on naming we can hardly complain. WE, citizens of 'Éire Ireland' (as we have now called ourselves in the EU), are the people who named the country officially Éire or Ireland and put Éire on coins, stamps and official documents. So while, not being an Irish speaker, I prefer Ireland, Éire is fine, so long as we make it clear that that isn't the name in the English language. Maybe Éire Ireland - that is what sits in front of our representatives in the EU nowadays, at our own request. ( Sarah777 21:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Mind you, I note that in all three cases cited above (Denmark, Israel, Belgium) the article name is the common name used through the world to describe the countries. As IRELAND is in the case of Ireland; with the almost sole exception of some folk in neighbouring jurisdictions the state that contains Dublin is known simply as Ireland.
The fact that Israel is surrounded by hundreds of millions of people who call it something else does not prevent the article title being the preferred name of it's citizens. And unlike the State of Israel, at least we now know where the borders of Ireland actually are. At least since 1997. ( Sarah777 21:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Oppose strongly. This is en.wiki, not ga.wiki. In all the articles you cite, the English language version is given first, followed by its translation in the national language(s). Check the Constitution. The name of the state in the English language is Ireland; the name of the state in the Irish language is Éire. The proposal is illiterate. -- Red King 22:03, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Clarification: What I meant by this proposal was not to get drawn into an argument about whether the emboldened name should be Éire or Ireland. Frankly, in the English language, I think they're equivalent. What I meant by the suggestion was to de-embolden Republic of Ireland and put the name of the state front and centre. Whether that be Éire or Ireland, personally I'm don't care that much. -- sony-youth talk 22:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
So Red, are you strongly supportingcalling the atricle IRELAND? I second that, again. ( Sarah777 22:28, 28 January 2007 (UTC))
Ireland (in Irish : Éire) is a sovereign state which covers approximately eighty-five percent of the surface area of the island of Ireland, off the coast of north-west Europe. It is also known as Republic of Ireland ( Irish: Poblacht na hÉireann), the official description [1] that marked its ceasing to be a British Dominion and a member of the Commonwealth in 1948. This form is used if needed to distinguish between Ireland (the state) and Ireland (the island). In international protocol, the name "Ireland" should be used. Residents usually refer to the country as Ireland: the usage "Republic of Ireland" is limited to the national soccer team. It is a member of the European Union, has a developed economy and a population of slightly more than 4.2 million [2]. The remaining part of the island of Ireland is known as Northern Ireland and is part of the United Kingdom.
People I think its just a bad idea placing emphasis on anything other that the article title in the article. We all know that the official name of the state is "Ireland", but as the article name is "Republic of Ireland" then it is the latter that must be used most prominantly, we can off course mention the official name, "Ireland" but not firstly and more prominantly. If people want to use "Ireland" firslty/prominantly then the only way to achive that is a successful move request (that will effect many articles) and not a confusing mixture of Ireland/Republic of Ireland. Eire is totally out of question as whatever people believe it is an Irish word and this is the English wikipedia... Djegan 01:07, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I still think Republic of Ireland should be moved to Ireland and the current Ireland be moved to Ireland (island), but the rewording is better than the current intro. -- Barry talk 01:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd obviously agree with Barry; but as we seem stuck with this "RoI" name for now then Sony's suggestion is a good one. I'd actually go one step further and not embolden "Republic of Ireland" at all - to emphasise that this is more a political disambiguation than a conventional article title. ( Sarah777 02:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC))
- Ireland ( Irish: Éire) is a sovereign state which covers approximately eighty-five percent of the surface area of the island of Ireland, off the coast of north-west Europe. It is also formally "described" [3] as The Republic of Ireland ( Irish: Poblacht na hÉireann), though modern local usage tends to restrict this to refer to the national soccer team or to disambiguate from the island. It is a member of the European Union, has a developed economy and a population of slightly more than 4.2 million [4]. The remaining part of the island of Ireland is known as Northern Ireland and is part of the United Kingdom.
Is was unaware that the proper naming of this article is related to the naming of the Derry article; it may explain some of the apparently unrelated stuff written by Red King in response to my comments on THIS article. And may I point out to Red, again, that the vast majority of the citizens of Derry want the City called Derry, as clearly expressed through their elected representatives. (Not Stroke City, or Londonderry).
"that is not going to happen unless Derry moves to Londonderry" Red, do you have some special power in relation to this matter? I was under the illusion we were all writing here as equals?
- Ireland ( Irish: Éire) is a sovereign state which covers approximately eighty-five percent of the surface area of the island of Ireland, off the coast of north-west Europe. It is also formally "described" [5] as The Republic of Ireland ( Irish: Poblacht na hÉireann), though FIFA refers to the Ireland team as the Republic of Ireland national football team. The term is also one of several terms used to to disambiguate Ireland the state from the Ireland the island. It is a member of the European Union, has a developed economy and a population of slightly more than 4.2 million [6]. The remaining part of the island of Ireland is known as Northern Ireland and is part of the United Kingdom.
There - that's a much better effort. ( Sarah777 07:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC))
The article needs to be consistant with the article title and not manifest a manner of confusion; as the location is Republic of Ireland so to should that be used most prominantly rather than Ireland. Been inconsistant with this will only serve to be ambiguous and confusing, particularily with regard to other articles, categories and general usage. What will changing the current text do apart from been ambiguous and confusing? The status quo is an effective way of conveying reality and the only way to vary it is a move request. Djegan 18:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
As the 'Derry' article keeps getting drawn in here I must agree absolutely with Angus and point out to Djegan that Londonderryis in bold in the article with the title 'Derry'. Regarding the name 'Derry', until the very recent court case it was widely assumed that Derry was the new name; as it is now clear that Londonderry will remain the legal name the article should now be renamed Londonderry. (It might even prod the citizens of Derry to take more effective action to get the name changed - if they really care that much). ( Sarah777 00:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC))
Rewrite proposed above beginning Ireland is a definite improvement. Another (even better) idea might be to have articles both on Ireland (state) and Republic of Ireland (a description of the Irish State). The latter article could explain the term Republic of Ireland, replete with references to FIFA and the ROI Act. I'm not sure the point about the Irish Soccer team is justified being in the first paragraph of an article about the Irish State. This is the problem, by calling the article Republic of Ireland, the article must get bogged down in that term in the first paragraph. In conclusion - can we please rename, ie move? Just my 2 cents. Incidentally, is Peter Canavan from the Republic of Ireland? Surely he is a Gaelic Football star from the United Kingdom? Deepsoulstarfish 00:41, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
People I have to stand by my conviction that the name of this article is "Republic of Ireland". Having a opening paragraph that backseats that name is illogical. If I am the "only" person who supports "Republic of Ireland" then have a move request and do it right. But no failed compromises. This issue has been discussed and voted on previously. The name of the article is "Republic of Ireland" - thats the consensus and the article should refect that. Djegan 16:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi DJ, I have no problem with the article about Londonderry. The idea of binding us to an earlier vote (how many voted?) is not really fair. I wasn't around for one, and these things have to be revisited. This encyclopaedia will be around for a long time. A vote among a handful of people in 2006 shouldn't set things in stone. Deepsoulstarfish 19:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)