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George Mathews' forays are described variously by historians as "farce" and "folly" and in no way created a free and independent state. An article that gives credence to the fantastical elements of this story needs also to treat the countervailing historical arguments. Jeff in CA ( talk) 16:12, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
There will always be claims of "Fake news" and "fake history" on any political subject. But I can assure you that I have studied the constitution of the republic - my grandfather even had a copy. It is a real constitution. Thus, would it not be a real republic?
I am curious to what qualifies as a "free and independent republic." If you have land, a capital, a surrender from Spain (Capitulation of Amelia Island), citizens, taxes, and free elections.... are you not a republic? Included in Native Floridian history and lore is that idea that many people have suppressed Native Floridian ideas and beliefs (i.e. Politicians like Sidney Catts). Catts was a strong Anti-Catholic governor who removed much of Native Floridian History from texts and fired every nun teaching in Florida's Public Schools. Texts prior to the Sidney Catts era claim that the republic as both free and independent, although many point out that they desired to be apart of the US. Check out a History of Florida (1904) by Caroline Mays Brevard.
Now, I am fine with the free expression of ideas. Maybe those who feel that the "free and independent republic of Florida" is false can cite their sources as well. What I find is that belief usually comes down to the number of people. There are very few Native Floridians, thus they were/are subjected to their beliefs and ideas being trampled. Not even a wiki page is okay - OH MY! I don't understand why wiki users would praise the Republic of West Florida, but trash the Republic of East Florida. Why can't we celebrate both?
Perhaps, we can include all relevant perspectives, that way all identities and beliefs are respected. Sometimes counter points are not wrong, but just from a different perspective. To a Liberal Democrat, a conservative Republic may seem odd (and vice versa) but both a liberal democrat voter and a conservative republican voter may honestly both say that they voted for whom they believe is best suited for the presidency. It's perspective.
I say it is a republic for the following reasons: 1. Capitulation from Spain ( Amelia Island) 2. Constitution 3. Free elections 4. Taxes 5. Legislative Body 6. Judiciary 7. Executive branch 8. Foreign ministers (i.e. Secretary of State) 9. Relations with foreigners (i.e. Lower Creek faction of the Creek Confederacy via William McIntosh) 10. Unique laws passed.
Points against it begin a Republic: 1. Not recognized by various foreign powers (like Women's Rights, racial equality, and a bunch of other things at the time). But yes, if you need a bunch of rich, white slaveholders to be your litmus test, then I guess you got me. Although, to be fair, the Republic likely had a few of those types as well.
I apologize for the excess sarcasm. I am just "a bit" cynical. And I admit that I am a bit liberal with my definition of a republic. Please check out the wiki on that. EastFloridaHistorian ( talk) 18:58, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Many Criticisms of George Matthews may be fair, but he never gets to see what the Republic became. The Republic begins in 1812, the year he died. So, George Matthews as a source is incomplete at best.
Also, I reread what I wrote, and I think it came across in a rude manner. I did not intend for it to do so. I appreciate a good conversation. Any notion that I (or my little wiki edits here and there) could be "fantastical" is a compliment that I am willing to take. Thank you, good sir! You make me blush. EastFloridaHistorian ( talk) 19:15, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
The entire article is based one source, The Republic of East Florida: Culture, Faith, & Lore, published by the Outskirts Press. Books published by a self-publishing press such as Outskirts Press are considered original research and unreliable as sources on WP. See WP:SELFPUBLISH. As the WP policy states, "Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field." This also raises the question of whether or not there is a possible COI here, as the same new editor who created this article seems to have a special interest in using this unreliable source, and has recently added content to other WP articles referring to the same source. Carlstak ( talk) 19:27, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
This map bears no relation to anything that I can find in the referenced materials. At Wikipedia Commons, the editor who inserted it in this article says that evidence will be provided on request that it was created in 1912. That is inadequate. If the original could be verified to be from 1814, then it would be notable. Where can it be verified that any "voting districts" were ever created, let alone any districts that covered the entire Spanish province, which was very sparsely populated? Jeff in CA ( talk) 04:47, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Us Floridians are VERY Proud of our history. Our maps are useful. Please stop removing them and vandalizing this page.
This page is about the Republic of Florida, which some of the editors denied even existed and are now shoving their revisionist history down our throats! If you can't edit anything nice about this page, don't edit anything at all.
Let Floridians edit the Florida pages. Only edit if you want to contribute.
TLDR; Stop removing things. Thank You!
EastFloridaHistorian (
talk) 19:59, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Text and/or other creative content from this version of George J. F. Clarke was copied or moved into Republic of East Florida with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Carlstak,
I discussed this page with Jeff in CA, whom I also disagreed with. He voiced his very reasonable concerns and I realized that we actually like similar sources. He and I just clung to different portions of traditional and academic literature. Diversity of thought is not a bad thing (Who cares if Boise State believes they were the best NCAA football team in 2006. I'd pick Florida, but why does everyone have to agree? It doesn't bother me. Nor should it, even if half the country believes that Boise State was the better team). By discussing this page with Jeff in CA, I realized that I am VERY passionate and emotionally attached to this subject. That's why I made the page. I grew up hearing of many tales of this Republic. I had not seen any articles on Wiki since I began (While Wiki was still in Florida), so I made an account and created this page. To my dismay, it morphed into something else and I was quite upset about that. Jeff in CA approached this page using Correct Wiki guidelines and skepticism. I approached it emotionally. Even though Jeff in CA and I disagree, I respect him and his opinion. I apologized to him and now, I would like to apologize to you. I believe I was quite rude to you. For that, I do personally apologize. I did assume that you were not a Floridian. I admit that my assumption was incorrect now that you have filled me in.
Before I explain the proposal, I would like to share with you the cause, according to lore, of the Floridian Revolution/Patriot War - Religious Liberty. In the Constitution of East Florida, it is mentioned that Spain was corrupt and idolized their priests. Religious liberty was the cause of the Revolution by Floridians. Spain had expelled all Jews that refused to convert to Catholicism. The Republic of East Florida military was made up of Jews, Orthodox Christians, Catholics, and Protestants. Sure, the Georgians probably had their own motives. I don't doubt that. All people have different beliefs, ideas, and motivations. People also die. George Matthews died in 1812, never reaching Washington DC. What do people fight for? Everyone is different. I don't believe that McIntosh sought to expand or spread slavery. I believe he fought for religious liberty. Kingsley though (as an international slave trader) very well could have fought for slavery. Spain did allow slavery in East Florida, but perhaps Kingsley wanted a return of the international trade. Ultimately, people fight for their country/government. Governments are made up of humans with different views. Even though history may record them as uniform, they rarely are.
Anyway, I propose that we "model" this page after the Republic of West Florida page, as they are sister republics. Now, "model" doesn't many make it the same. They are different, but I think this page deserves a "country info bar." Since Jeff in CA and I disagree on the dates, I will only use "1812" as the date. I will also link this page to all/many Florida History pages with brief and neutral commentary.
I hope that we can work together as fellow Floridians, and I believe that we can make Florida proud! EastFloridaHistorian ( talk) 04:09, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
EastFloridaHistorian, don't call a good faith edit vandalism, as you did on my talk page, that is as much of an offense on Wikipedia as actual vandalization. Your reasoning is flawed. Earlier, you added a funny map purporting to show the Voting Districts in the Republic of Florida (sic) that included the whole peninsula except the far western panhandle, notwithstanding that almost all of East Florida south of St. Augustine was uninhabited except by a few bands of Seminoles.
The "Patriots" who invaded Spanish Florida held Amelia Island for less than 24 hours before the island was turned over to United States occupying forces, their East Florida Patriot standard was lowered and the flag of the United States was raised. The island, including Fernandina, was to be held "in trust" for Spain by the US. The Republic of East Florida then had no dominion over Amelia Island, much less the whole Spanish province of East Florida, which is the area I referred to. At that point, the so-called "Republic of East Florida" controlled no territory in Florida, making it a putative "republic" with no territory. Also, you are ignoring recommended practice by reverting my revert. The onus is on the editor who is reverted first to make his case on the article's talk page and try to win consensus to make the change he wants, or else try to reach a workable compromise. You have disrespected Wikipedia practice and me by calling my good faith edit with a given rationale "vandalism". Carlstak ( talk) 03:15, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The Spanish language article about this subject ( es:República de Florida (1817)) focuses and the second incarnation of the republic in 1817. Should that be incorporated into this article, or would it be better to create a new one containing that content? -- PiMaster3 talk 17:43, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
List of military occupations does not mention the occupation of Amelia island by US forces because the criteria for that list limits itself to the years following 1907. An interesting project might be to extend the list into the past to include all of U.S. history. Jeff in CA ( talk) 18:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
George Mathews' forays are described variously by historians as "farce" and "folly" and in no way created a free and independent state. An article that gives credence to the fantastical elements of this story needs also to treat the countervailing historical arguments. Jeff in CA ( talk) 16:12, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
There will always be claims of "Fake news" and "fake history" on any political subject. But I can assure you that I have studied the constitution of the republic - my grandfather even had a copy. It is a real constitution. Thus, would it not be a real republic?
I am curious to what qualifies as a "free and independent republic." If you have land, a capital, a surrender from Spain (Capitulation of Amelia Island), citizens, taxes, and free elections.... are you not a republic? Included in Native Floridian history and lore is that idea that many people have suppressed Native Floridian ideas and beliefs (i.e. Politicians like Sidney Catts). Catts was a strong Anti-Catholic governor who removed much of Native Floridian History from texts and fired every nun teaching in Florida's Public Schools. Texts prior to the Sidney Catts era claim that the republic as both free and independent, although many point out that they desired to be apart of the US. Check out a History of Florida (1904) by Caroline Mays Brevard.
Now, I am fine with the free expression of ideas. Maybe those who feel that the "free and independent republic of Florida" is false can cite their sources as well. What I find is that belief usually comes down to the number of people. There are very few Native Floridians, thus they were/are subjected to their beliefs and ideas being trampled. Not even a wiki page is okay - OH MY! I don't understand why wiki users would praise the Republic of West Florida, but trash the Republic of East Florida. Why can't we celebrate both?
Perhaps, we can include all relevant perspectives, that way all identities and beliefs are respected. Sometimes counter points are not wrong, but just from a different perspective. To a Liberal Democrat, a conservative Republic may seem odd (and vice versa) but both a liberal democrat voter and a conservative republican voter may honestly both say that they voted for whom they believe is best suited for the presidency. It's perspective.
I say it is a republic for the following reasons: 1. Capitulation from Spain ( Amelia Island) 2. Constitution 3. Free elections 4. Taxes 5. Legislative Body 6. Judiciary 7. Executive branch 8. Foreign ministers (i.e. Secretary of State) 9. Relations with foreigners (i.e. Lower Creek faction of the Creek Confederacy via William McIntosh) 10. Unique laws passed.
Points against it begin a Republic: 1. Not recognized by various foreign powers (like Women's Rights, racial equality, and a bunch of other things at the time). But yes, if you need a bunch of rich, white slaveholders to be your litmus test, then I guess you got me. Although, to be fair, the Republic likely had a few of those types as well.
I apologize for the excess sarcasm. I am just "a bit" cynical. And I admit that I am a bit liberal with my definition of a republic. Please check out the wiki on that. EastFloridaHistorian ( talk) 18:58, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
Many Criticisms of George Matthews may be fair, but he never gets to see what the Republic became. The Republic begins in 1812, the year he died. So, George Matthews as a source is incomplete at best.
Also, I reread what I wrote, and I think it came across in a rude manner. I did not intend for it to do so. I appreciate a good conversation. Any notion that I (or my little wiki edits here and there) could be "fantastical" is a compliment that I am willing to take. Thank you, good sir! You make me blush. EastFloridaHistorian ( talk) 19:15, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
The entire article is based one source, The Republic of East Florida: Culture, Faith, & Lore, published by the Outskirts Press. Books published by a self-publishing press such as Outskirts Press are considered original research and unreliable as sources on WP. See WP:SELFPUBLISH. As the WP policy states, "Anyone can create a personal web page or publish their own book, and also claim to be an expert in a certain field." This also raises the question of whether or not there is a possible COI here, as the same new editor who created this article seems to have a special interest in using this unreliable source, and has recently added content to other WP articles referring to the same source. Carlstak ( talk) 19:27, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
This map bears no relation to anything that I can find in the referenced materials. At Wikipedia Commons, the editor who inserted it in this article says that evidence will be provided on request that it was created in 1912. That is inadequate. If the original could be verified to be from 1814, then it would be notable. Where can it be verified that any "voting districts" were ever created, let alone any districts that covered the entire Spanish province, which was very sparsely populated? Jeff in CA ( talk) 04:47, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Us Floridians are VERY Proud of our history. Our maps are useful. Please stop removing them and vandalizing this page.
This page is about the Republic of Florida, which some of the editors denied even existed and are now shoving their revisionist history down our throats! If you can't edit anything nice about this page, don't edit anything at all.
Let Floridians edit the Florida pages. Only edit if you want to contribute.
TLDR; Stop removing things. Thank You!
EastFloridaHistorian (
talk) 19:59, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Text and/or other creative content from this version of George J. F. Clarke was copied or moved into Republic of East Florida with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Carlstak,
I discussed this page with Jeff in CA, whom I also disagreed with. He voiced his very reasonable concerns and I realized that we actually like similar sources. He and I just clung to different portions of traditional and academic literature. Diversity of thought is not a bad thing (Who cares if Boise State believes they were the best NCAA football team in 2006. I'd pick Florida, but why does everyone have to agree? It doesn't bother me. Nor should it, even if half the country believes that Boise State was the better team). By discussing this page with Jeff in CA, I realized that I am VERY passionate and emotionally attached to this subject. That's why I made the page. I grew up hearing of many tales of this Republic. I had not seen any articles on Wiki since I began (While Wiki was still in Florida), so I made an account and created this page. To my dismay, it morphed into something else and I was quite upset about that. Jeff in CA approached this page using Correct Wiki guidelines and skepticism. I approached it emotionally. Even though Jeff in CA and I disagree, I respect him and his opinion. I apologized to him and now, I would like to apologize to you. I believe I was quite rude to you. For that, I do personally apologize. I did assume that you were not a Floridian. I admit that my assumption was incorrect now that you have filled me in.
Before I explain the proposal, I would like to share with you the cause, according to lore, of the Floridian Revolution/Patriot War - Religious Liberty. In the Constitution of East Florida, it is mentioned that Spain was corrupt and idolized their priests. Religious liberty was the cause of the Revolution by Floridians. Spain had expelled all Jews that refused to convert to Catholicism. The Republic of East Florida military was made up of Jews, Orthodox Christians, Catholics, and Protestants. Sure, the Georgians probably had their own motives. I don't doubt that. All people have different beliefs, ideas, and motivations. People also die. George Matthews died in 1812, never reaching Washington DC. What do people fight for? Everyone is different. I don't believe that McIntosh sought to expand or spread slavery. I believe he fought for religious liberty. Kingsley though (as an international slave trader) very well could have fought for slavery. Spain did allow slavery in East Florida, but perhaps Kingsley wanted a return of the international trade. Ultimately, people fight for their country/government. Governments are made up of humans with different views. Even though history may record them as uniform, they rarely are.
Anyway, I propose that we "model" this page after the Republic of West Florida page, as they are sister republics. Now, "model" doesn't many make it the same. They are different, but I think this page deserves a "country info bar." Since Jeff in CA and I disagree on the dates, I will only use "1812" as the date. I will also link this page to all/many Florida History pages with brief and neutral commentary.
I hope that we can work together as fellow Floridians, and I believe that we can make Florida proud! EastFloridaHistorian ( talk) 04:09, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
EastFloridaHistorian, don't call a good faith edit vandalism, as you did on my talk page, that is as much of an offense on Wikipedia as actual vandalization. Your reasoning is flawed. Earlier, you added a funny map purporting to show the Voting Districts in the Republic of Florida (sic) that included the whole peninsula except the far western panhandle, notwithstanding that almost all of East Florida south of St. Augustine was uninhabited except by a few bands of Seminoles.
The "Patriots" who invaded Spanish Florida held Amelia Island for less than 24 hours before the island was turned over to United States occupying forces, their East Florida Patriot standard was lowered and the flag of the United States was raised. The island, including Fernandina, was to be held "in trust" for Spain by the US. The Republic of East Florida then had no dominion over Amelia Island, much less the whole Spanish province of East Florida, which is the area I referred to. At that point, the so-called "Republic of East Florida" controlled no territory in Florida, making it a putative "republic" with no territory. Also, you are ignoring recommended practice by reverting my revert. The onus is on the editor who is reverted first to make his case on the article's talk page and try to win consensus to make the change he wants, or else try to reach a workable compromise. You have disrespected Wikipedia practice and me by calling my good faith edit with a given rationale "vandalism". Carlstak ( talk) 03:15, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
The Spanish language article about this subject ( es:República de Florida (1817)) focuses and the second incarnation of the republic in 1817. Should that be incorporated into this article, or would it be better to create a new one containing that content? -- PiMaster3 talk 17:43, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
List of military occupations does not mention the occupation of Amelia island by US forces because the criteria for that list limits itself to the years following 1907. An interesting project might be to extend the list into the past to include all of U.S. history. Jeff in CA ( talk) 18:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC)