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Thoughts on Government Apr. 1776 Papers 4:86-93
http://www.constitution.org/jadams/thoughts.htm
Quote by: John Adams,(1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President Source: Novanglus, in Boston Gazette, 6Mar1775, Adams Papers, V II, p. 314
If adding to the De facto republic to the introduction is such a big deal, why not just add it later on in the article? I think it should be noted that while the UK is a Monarchy, it actually functions like a republic.
I know this qualifies as a stupid remark/question, but why isn't the latin origin of " republic" mentioned in the introduction? I mean, that would make things a bit more self-explainatory, huh? - Fradlin 21:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
and note well...administrator's note that Schonken's report is "bogus." then see this article's History for his latest refusal to civilize up, by filing yet another amateurish reversion. Stevewk 16:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Your revert to a spamlinked version of Republic
Regarding your revert of 16:13, 25 October 2006 to the "Republic" article: Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did in Republic. Wikipedia is not a mere directory of links nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites that you are affiliated with, and links that exist to attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policies for further explanations of links that are considered appropriate. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. -- Francis Schonken 16:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
With regards to your comments on Talk:Republic: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users." Please keep this in mind while editing. Thanks. --Francis Schonken 16:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Stevewk 16:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Would Stevewk and Francis Schonken please stop edit warring over this article. As I see it, the current intro is far too long; I suggest most of it after the first paragraph should be moved to a section like "Definitions of 'Republic'". It strikes me that you are both behaving as poorly as each other - until you can both approach this in a polite, calm fashion without resorting to personal attacks, escalations to RfC etc., I suggest that you go and do something else, either some constructive editing elsewhere or a short, relaxing Wikibreak. When you return, please concentrate your efforts on making this article clear, concise and accessible to a lay-audience; perhaps you could work together on a mutually-acceptable draft article in your userspaces. Happy (calm) editing, -- YFB ¿ 17:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
1) Yesterday, Schonken knowingly filed a false 3R/sock puppet report;
2) That report was correctly rejected as "bogus" by a Wiki administrator;
3) This morning Schonken attempted to start a second edit war with another reversion and with a bogus message in the edit line;
4) I reverted, then informed YFB and George Herbert;
5) Schonken again reverted; YFB reverted with the above message.
6) I have every intention of complying with YFB's suggestion.
Thats where things stand as of this date/time stamp: Stevewk 18:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Re. changes to intro section and related footnotes:
Changed to:
Changed to
Added
to first paragraph of intro, including this footnote:
In the second paragraph:
With footnote 2:
Is changed to:
Changed to:
Extension of John Adams quote with:
Added footnote to Adams text:
Massachusetts, unlike Connecticut, did not establish a religion. Article 3 of the 1780 Constitution of Massachusetts read, in full:
As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.
And the people of this commonwealth have also a right to, and do, invest their legislature with authority to enjoin upon all the subjects an attendance upon the instructions of the public teachers aforesaid, at stated times and seasons, if there be any on whose instructions they can conscientiously and conveniently attend.
Provided, notwithstanding, that the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, shall, at all times, have the exclusive right of electing their public teachers, and of contracting with them for their support and maintenance.
And all moneys paid by the subject to the support of public worship, and of the public teachers aforesaid, shall, if he require it, be uniformly applied to the support of the public teacher or teachers of his own religious sect or denomination, provided there be any on whose instructions he attends; otherwise it may be paid towards the support of the teacher or teachers of the parish or precinct in which the said moneys are raised.
Any every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.
Now it is quite true, and doubtless intentional, that this system, (like Patrick Henry's proposal that every man should be required to support some teacher) worked to the advantage of the majority denomination; it was bitterly complained of, and at length abolished. (Incidentally, there is no question that Connecticut was a republic while it had an established church; so the connection with disestablishment seems weak.) JCScaliger 17:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
kindly tell this creature to stay away from me. i'm not interested in debating him. it's like shooting fish in a barrel, and i know for a fact that i'm not that tacky. it was suggested I respond, and i complied. that should be the end of it.
on another issue, why was he permitted to escape any penalty after he knowingly filed a false 3R report (and judged 'bogus' by a wiki admin)? that's the most egregious thing of all that's gone down here, and you let it slide? i'd really like to know the answer to this one...from you guys, that is. anybody else reading this, see
then, why was his newly reverted page (new following the end of the first edit war [that he started]) the one that was frozen instead of the one that prevailed at the end of his first edit war? Stevewk 18:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Steve, I could actually answer some (not all) of your questions. Or at least show you the way to some pages where you might find (part of) an answer. But I realise I'm maybe not in the best position to approach you on these matters. I wouldn't do so unless I knew where you'd appreciate me trying to answer some of the stuff you ask about – here on this talk page on your user talk page, or maybe at Durova's, or wherever... Just let me know where if you'd like to take advantage of this offer. -- Francis Schonken 21:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Please use this talk page to discuss how to edit this article and for no other purpose. Personal messages belong on user talk pages. When referring to lengthy material on another talk page, post a page diff rather than copy and paste. Durova 22:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the content of Republic, particularly the introduction section and definition.
This article has been protected long enough. Let's hope the dust has settled. Regards, Durova Charg e! 05:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The present intro claims that oligarchies are not traditionally considered republics. This seems quite doubtful, except in the Aristotelian sense that oligarchies are bad aristocracies and therefore not constitutional at all. But this is a six or seven-fold classification, and not compatible with this wording. Whatever is meant, I doubt it belongs in the lead; the history of the word is at least a section, if not an article.
The Venetian Republic was an oligarchy; did it cease to be a republic? And if so, when?
John Adams is a tradition of his own, with few followers, if any; he does not belond in the intro at all. The edit I performed is preliminary; much more work is needed. JCScaliger 21:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I hereby announce that I have translated this article directly into the Finnish Wikipedia. Teemu Ruskeepää 14:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
an undo is required 80.229.242.179 19:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
ARTICLE CONTAINS ONE BAD DEFINITION AND ONE AMBIGUOUS DEFINITION
In its CLASSIC meaning, a republic is a government ruled by its people rather than at the whim of a single person or coterie of persons; in its usual MODERN meaning, a republic is a government whose head of state is, or is supposed to be, chosen by the people (and usually nowadays called a president), rather than a monarch (meaning a hereditary head of state, holding office for life from the point at which he/she inherits the position) usually called King, but sometimes Emperor, Prince, Amir, Sultan, Grand Duke, or whatever). This distinction is complicated by the fact that the CLASSIC definition of a monarch is a person who singly possesses most of the power in a government. So in the CLASSIC sense, Britain is as much a republic as the U.S. is, and the President of the U.S. is a lot closer to being a monarch than Queen Elizabeth is.
Speaking in terms of monarchies in the MODERN sense: In addition to being hereditary, there are different customs surrounding a so-called monarch which elevate him/her above the level typically occupied by an elected official. His/her family members share to some extent in this exalted status and have their own titles (Prince, Duke, etc.); he/she is usually cited by his first name, e.g. Elizabeth II, Carl XVI, Juan Carlos, etc. (indeed, in many cases the family doesnt have a surname); he/she is addressed with pretentious titles such as "Your Majesty" or "Your Highness", and has a lot of other fancy fol-de-rol and ceremony attached to his/her person. Commonly the fiction is maintained that the monarch is the fount and origin of state power, while actually the real executive head manifests much of his/her power through the monarch.
The article's definition of two different kinds of republics (republics in the MODERN sense, that is) is correct in regard to what a presidential republic is, but its definition of semi-presidential republic is wrong. Actually, republics can be presidential, semi-presidential, or parliamentary. A semi-presidential republic is one in which the head of state (president, usually) shares executive power with a person representing the legislative majority, usually called prime minister but sometimes chancellor, chairman of the council of ministers, minister-president, or some other title. A republic with a parliamentary system has a president (or whatever) who acts as ceremonial head of state but has almost no executive power (a "figurehead", in other words, like a king in a so-called constitutional monarchy, while the prime minister (or whatever his title) representing the legislative branch holds the executive power.
Paragraph beginning 'Marxism inspired' needs rewriting.
There seems to be a common misconception that the Union of Myanmar is a republic. This is a difficult argument to sustain when one realizes that is is a military junta with no constitution, no representative institutions of any kind, no elections, no rule of law, and no separate legislature, even of a purely advisory role. I make these points from a political, not a human rights, standpoint. Therefore, I am removing mentions of Myanmar from this article. — Sesel 20:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
Thoughts on Government Apr. 1776 Papers 4:86-93
http://www.constitution.org/jadams/thoughts.htm
Quote by: John Adams,(1735-1826) Founding Father, 2nd US President Source: Novanglus, in Boston Gazette, 6Mar1775, Adams Papers, V II, p. 314
If adding to the De facto republic to the introduction is such a big deal, why not just add it later on in the article? I think it should be noted that while the UK is a Monarchy, it actually functions like a republic.
I know this qualifies as a stupid remark/question, but why isn't the latin origin of " republic" mentioned in the introduction? I mean, that would make things a bit more self-explainatory, huh? - Fradlin 21:30, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
and note well...administrator's note that Schonken's report is "bogus." then see this article's History for his latest refusal to civilize up, by filing yet another amateurish reversion. Stevewk 16:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Your revert to a spamlinked version of Republic
Regarding your revert of 16:13, 25 October 2006 to the "Republic" article: Please do not add inappropriate external links to Wikipedia, as you did in Republic. Wikipedia is not a mere directory of links nor should it be used for advertising or promotion. Inappropriate links include (but are not limited to) links to personal web sites, links to web sites that you are affiliated with, and links that exist to attract visitors to a web site or promote a product. See the external links guideline and spam policies for further explanations of links that are considered appropriate. If you feel the link should be added to the article, then please discuss it on the article's talk page rather than re-adding it. See the welcome page to learn more about Wikipedia. Thank you. -- Francis Schonken 16:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
With regards to your comments on Talk:Republic: Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users." Please keep this in mind while editing. Thanks. --Francis Schonken 16:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Stevewk 16:48, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Would Stevewk and Francis Schonken please stop edit warring over this article. As I see it, the current intro is far too long; I suggest most of it after the first paragraph should be moved to a section like "Definitions of 'Republic'". It strikes me that you are both behaving as poorly as each other - until you can both approach this in a polite, calm fashion without resorting to personal attacks, escalations to RfC etc., I suggest that you go and do something else, either some constructive editing elsewhere or a short, relaxing Wikibreak. When you return, please concentrate your efforts on making this article clear, concise and accessible to a lay-audience; perhaps you could work together on a mutually-acceptable draft article in your userspaces. Happy (calm) editing, -- YFB ¿ 17:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
1) Yesterday, Schonken knowingly filed a false 3R/sock puppet report;
2) That report was correctly rejected as "bogus" by a Wiki administrator;
3) This morning Schonken attempted to start a second edit war with another reversion and with a bogus message in the edit line;
4) I reverted, then informed YFB and George Herbert;
5) Schonken again reverted; YFB reverted with the above message.
6) I have every intention of complying with YFB's suggestion.
Thats where things stand as of this date/time stamp: Stevewk 18:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
Re. changes to intro section and related footnotes:
Changed to:
Changed to
Added
to first paragraph of intro, including this footnote:
In the second paragraph:
With footnote 2:
Is changed to:
Changed to:
Extension of John Adams quote with:
Added footnote to Adams text:
Massachusetts, unlike Connecticut, did not establish a religion. Article 3 of the 1780 Constitution of Massachusetts read, in full:
As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.
And the people of this commonwealth have also a right to, and do, invest their legislature with authority to enjoin upon all the subjects an attendance upon the instructions of the public teachers aforesaid, at stated times and seasons, if there be any on whose instructions they can conscientiously and conveniently attend.
Provided, notwithstanding, that the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, shall, at all times, have the exclusive right of electing their public teachers, and of contracting with them for their support and maintenance.
And all moneys paid by the subject to the support of public worship, and of the public teachers aforesaid, shall, if he require it, be uniformly applied to the support of the public teacher or teachers of his own religious sect or denomination, provided there be any on whose instructions he attends; otherwise it may be paid towards the support of the teacher or teachers of the parish or precinct in which the said moneys are raised.
Any every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably, and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law: and no subordination of any one sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.
Now it is quite true, and doubtless intentional, that this system, (like Patrick Henry's proposal that every man should be required to support some teacher) worked to the advantage of the majority denomination; it was bitterly complained of, and at length abolished. (Incidentally, there is no question that Connecticut was a republic while it had an established church; so the connection with disestablishment seems weak.) JCScaliger 17:41, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
kindly tell this creature to stay away from me. i'm not interested in debating him. it's like shooting fish in a barrel, and i know for a fact that i'm not that tacky. it was suggested I respond, and i complied. that should be the end of it.
on another issue, why was he permitted to escape any penalty after he knowingly filed a false 3R report (and judged 'bogus' by a wiki admin)? that's the most egregious thing of all that's gone down here, and you let it slide? i'd really like to know the answer to this one...from you guys, that is. anybody else reading this, see
then, why was his newly reverted page (new following the end of the first edit war [that he started]) the one that was frozen instead of the one that prevailed at the end of his first edit war? Stevewk 18:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Steve, I could actually answer some (not all) of your questions. Or at least show you the way to some pages where you might find (part of) an answer. But I realise I'm maybe not in the best position to approach you on these matters. I wouldn't do so unless I knew where you'd appreciate me trying to answer some of the stuff you ask about – here on this talk page on your user talk page, or maybe at Durova's, or wherever... Just let me know where if you'd like to take advantage of this offer. -- Francis Schonken 21:34, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Please use this talk page to discuss how to edit this article and for no other purpose. Personal messages belong on user talk pages. When referring to lengthy material on another talk page, post a page diff rather than copy and paste. Durova 22:12, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a dispute about the content of Republic, particularly the introduction section and definition.
This article has been protected long enough. Let's hope the dust has settled. Regards, Durova Charg e! 05:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
The present intro claims that oligarchies are not traditionally considered republics. This seems quite doubtful, except in the Aristotelian sense that oligarchies are bad aristocracies and therefore not constitutional at all. But this is a six or seven-fold classification, and not compatible with this wording. Whatever is meant, I doubt it belongs in the lead; the history of the word is at least a section, if not an article.
The Venetian Republic was an oligarchy; did it cease to be a republic? And if so, when?
John Adams is a tradition of his own, with few followers, if any; he does not belond in the intro at all. The edit I performed is preliminary; much more work is needed. JCScaliger 21:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I hereby announce that I have translated this article directly into the Finnish Wikipedia. Teemu Ruskeepää 14:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
an undo is required 80.229.242.179 19:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
ARTICLE CONTAINS ONE BAD DEFINITION AND ONE AMBIGUOUS DEFINITION
In its CLASSIC meaning, a republic is a government ruled by its people rather than at the whim of a single person or coterie of persons; in its usual MODERN meaning, a republic is a government whose head of state is, or is supposed to be, chosen by the people (and usually nowadays called a president), rather than a monarch (meaning a hereditary head of state, holding office for life from the point at which he/she inherits the position) usually called King, but sometimes Emperor, Prince, Amir, Sultan, Grand Duke, or whatever). This distinction is complicated by the fact that the CLASSIC definition of a monarch is a person who singly possesses most of the power in a government. So in the CLASSIC sense, Britain is as much a republic as the U.S. is, and the President of the U.S. is a lot closer to being a monarch than Queen Elizabeth is.
Speaking in terms of monarchies in the MODERN sense: In addition to being hereditary, there are different customs surrounding a so-called monarch which elevate him/her above the level typically occupied by an elected official. His/her family members share to some extent in this exalted status and have their own titles (Prince, Duke, etc.); he/she is usually cited by his first name, e.g. Elizabeth II, Carl XVI, Juan Carlos, etc. (indeed, in many cases the family doesnt have a surname); he/she is addressed with pretentious titles such as "Your Majesty" or "Your Highness", and has a lot of other fancy fol-de-rol and ceremony attached to his/her person. Commonly the fiction is maintained that the monarch is the fount and origin of state power, while actually the real executive head manifests much of his/her power through the monarch.
The article's definition of two different kinds of republics (republics in the MODERN sense, that is) is correct in regard to what a presidential republic is, but its definition of semi-presidential republic is wrong. Actually, republics can be presidential, semi-presidential, or parliamentary. A semi-presidential republic is one in which the head of state (president, usually) shares executive power with a person representing the legislative majority, usually called prime minister but sometimes chancellor, chairman of the council of ministers, minister-president, or some other title. A republic with a parliamentary system has a president (or whatever) who acts as ceremonial head of state but has almost no executive power (a "figurehead", in other words, like a king in a so-called constitutional monarchy, while the prime minister (or whatever his title) representing the legislative branch holds the executive power.
Paragraph beginning 'Marxism inspired' needs rewriting.
There seems to be a common misconception that the Union of Myanmar is a republic. This is a difficult argument to sustain when one realizes that is is a military junta with no constitution, no representative institutions of any kind, no elections, no rule of law, and no separate legislature, even of a purely advisory role. I make these points from a political, not a human rights, standpoint. Therefore, I am removing mentions of Myanmar from this article. — Sesel 20:48, 22 March 2007 (UTC)