![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have copied some of the material from Pashupati seal, Indus Valley Civilisation, Lingam, Mahishasura#The_Legend_of_Mahishasura. LearnIndology ( talk) 05:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
diff copied from Ganesha
The roots of Ganesha worship have been traced back to 3,000 BCE since the times of Indus Valley Civilisation. [1] [2]
References
Both sources are not at Ganesha. Devut Pattanaik:
The Indus Valley Civilization, which pre-dates Vedic times, had elephant seals. Clearly, people knew about elephants. But th idols and images of Ganesha began to emerge only 1500 years ago whereas the Vedas go back 4000 years. So this is a development of the late Puranic times.
Horns, Tusks, and Flippers:
The great civilizations of the Indus Valley had the elephant-headed god of wisdom, Ganesha, deply entrenched in their theology.
No reference for that statement, but authors on "The Evolution of Hoofed Mammals" are clearly not specialists on the history of Indian religion. WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:04, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Scholars have identified similarities between bathing rituals of IVC and bathing rituals in Hinduism along river ghats.
Regarding Great Bath I never quoted Doniger, I cited Britanica- Have you checked the prim. author of the article? Doniger et al write,
... the Great Bath at Mohenjo-daro may have been used for ritual purposes, as were the ghats (bathing steps on riverbanks) attached to later Hindu temples.
origins of Swastika in South Asia lies in IVC- And? It was one of the many IVC seals with absolutely no evidence of any special connotation. Nobody even knows for a certain whether it was those seals which became the Hindu swastika.
there are 213 sources for that- That, being?
the legend of Mahishasura might have roots in IVC as seal 279; it is the view of B. Ya. Volchok, whose heydays have been over long ago. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Have you checked the prim. author of the article? Doniger et al writen
Yes I have checked, there are multiple authors of this article, not one.
And? It was one of the many IVC seals with absolutely no evidence of any special connotation. Nobody even knows for a certain whether it was those seals which became the Hindu swastika.
Hmmm noice, that's a good thought. You should publish a blog on that, but I am sorry to inform you that we publish what reliable sources are stating.
That, being?You wish that I start digging up specific scholarship on Mother Goddess rather than books covering the topic in a couple of lines? Harappa.com contains a quote from Parpola, which does not invoke any relation between the current cult and IVC.
I never asked you to dig up specific scholarship for Mother Goddess. I only asked you to open Swastika article and see the number of sources available for the claim.
I used Harrapa.com only for one sentence and that was
This culture has survived in South Asian villages (mainly in India)
Sullivan's probabilistic line is unclear (is he talking 'bout the ritual of water buffalo sacrifice?); c.f. Bihani Sarkar (OUP, 2017).
Suillivan is crystal clear about what he's talking about. Let me elaborate it for you. He's saying that that Durga puja and it's practices are not Vedic in nature and has IVC roots, which was later incorporated in Brahmanical religion. Not to mention he also mentions the legend of mahishasura.
Noel Salmond is not an Indologist and his book is on a faraway topic; a fringe archaeologist
Ummm... No, He has doctorate in Asian religions. As far as my brain cells are working, having a doctorate in Asian religions makes him a reliable author.
says that the links between IVC stones and Hindu lingams are not quite proved but [merely] probable. Hiltebeitel nowhere supports that the legend of Mahishasura might have roots in IVC as seal 279; it is the view of B. Ya. Volchok, whose heydays have been over long ago.
By this statement I am assuming that you have very little or no knowledge about Hinduism. There are countless scholars adhering to the same point about Lingam. Do you want me to list the authors? I recommend you reading about Basics of Hinduism.
Your claim that someone taking a 'dim' view of the subject justifies your redirect is making no sense. Coverage is what matters, you can't redirect a page that happens to cover a highly notable subject. LearnIndology ( talk) 03:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
hypothesis never seemed convincing? TrangaBellam ( talk) 04:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Consider the large bathing tank found in the citadel at Mohenjo-Daro, which is forty by twenty-three feet in length and width, and eight feet deep. To Parpola, this suggests ritual bathing, central to later Hinduism. But all that this structure really tells us is that the people of the IVC liked to bathe. Another example: noting the many images of women in the IVC, Parpola argues that the worship of Durga in “village Hinduism” is connected to the worship of Mesopotamian and Harappan fertility goddesses. The Rig Vedic goddess of speech, Vac, Parpola argues, also has Mesopotamian or Harappan origins. But not every woman is a goddess, and why should images of women symbolize fertility—or, indeed, speech?
Similar problems arise in the interpretation of buffaloes. Parpola assumes that buffalo sculptures show that people of the IVC worshipped the buffalo; the Harappan buffalo sacrifice, he argues, was replaced by the Vedic horse sacrifice. But why assume that buffaloes were sacrificed, rather than merely eaten, or harnessed for use? The IVC images of animals and plants are often breathtakingly beautiful, and highly imaginative. Might they not simply be artistic images springing from the human impulse to create art, an impulse every bit as universal as the impulse to worship? Why must the wonderful fig trees at Harappa be the source of sacred trees in Hinduism?
We should now consider the “sames” — namely the continuity he [Parpola] sees between the Indus civilization and post-Vedic Hinduism. First is the question by what mechanism Harappan concepts and practices could have been transferred to the Indo-Aryans, since the Indus civilization essentially ended in the very early second millennium bce. It is a major conceptual leap from the undeniable statement that classical Hinduism differs in major ways from Vedic religion to the claim that much of what is non-Vedic in classical Hinduism should be attributed to the Indus civilization, whose flowering essentially ended at least 1500 years before "classical Hinduism" began.
TrangaBellam ( talk) 04:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)This Indus-orientated section of The Roots of Hinduism does contain both a wealth of impressive scholarship and somewhat speculative claims for which available evi-dence is marshalled, rather than necessarily critically interrogated ... while it is commonly suggested that the Indus civilization was ruled by Kings or Priest-kings (231), the claim is not proven, which problematizes the author’s thesis that Vedic rites of kingship derived from Harappan royal rituals origi-nally transmitted from West Asia.
The claim to connection between early sexualized rituals such as those of the early Vedic vrātyas and Tantrism, which in its fully developed form is much more than a millennium later, is particularly controversial (251), while the use of the similarly late Kālikā Purāṇa as evidence in discussion of the Indus culture is equally problematic—entirely different historical trajectories could be proposed to explain concordances. The same is true for any possible concordance between the Vedic Śambara and the much later Tantric deity Cakrasaṃvara. Such claimed transmissions over vast periods of time leave us with little alternative but to allow the rather unsatisfactory explanatory device of the “sub-stratum”.
LearnIndology, Hiltebeitel, Alf (1989). "Hinduism". p. 5 In Kitagawa, Joseph (ed.). The Religious Traditions of Asia: Religion, History, and Culture. Routledge. notes,
The notion that features of Indus Valley religion form a stream with later non-Aryan religious currents that percolate into Hinduism has somewhat dismissively been called the substratum theory by opponents who argue in favor of treating the development of Hinduism derivable from within its own sacred literature.
Please explain your removal or you will be at WP:AE. TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:43, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
[Y]ou mislabeled "opponents" as "scholars"- Are you serious? TrangaBellam ( talk) 07:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
@ TrangaBellam: I copy-edited that line diff. Hiltebeitel (1989) also states that continuities are likely. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
? I can't access Rita Wright, but I've studied psychology of religion, and theology, and work in the field, and this phrase doesn't ring a bell with me.
A religious ideology can be defined as a set of ideas that refer to religious and secular tools and accompany political actions and processes in a sustained and systematic way.
The research suggests that there was a rich religious ideology that probably focused on transformation and sympathetic magic and possibly even shamanism, rather than on a single Mother Goddess, a long-standing myth.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:17, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
|
I have copied some of the material from Pashupati seal, Indus Valley Civilisation, Lingam, Mahishasura#The_Legend_of_Mahishasura. LearnIndology ( talk) 05:57, 23 July 2021 (UTC)
diff copied from Ganesha
The roots of Ganesha worship have been traced back to 3,000 BCE since the times of Indus Valley Civilisation. [1] [2]
References
Both sources are not at Ganesha. Devut Pattanaik:
The Indus Valley Civilization, which pre-dates Vedic times, had elephant seals. Clearly, people knew about elephants. But th idols and images of Ganesha began to emerge only 1500 years ago whereas the Vedas go back 4000 years. So this is a development of the late Puranic times.
Horns, Tusks, and Flippers:
The great civilizations of the Indus Valley had the elephant-headed god of wisdom, Ganesha, deply entrenched in their theology.
No reference for that statement, but authors on "The Evolution of Hoofed Mammals" are clearly not specialists on the history of Indian religion. WP:EXCEPTIONAL. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:04, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Scholars have identified similarities between bathing rituals of IVC and bathing rituals in Hinduism along river ghats.
Regarding Great Bath I never quoted Doniger, I cited Britanica- Have you checked the prim. author of the article? Doniger et al write,
... the Great Bath at Mohenjo-daro may have been used for ritual purposes, as were the ghats (bathing steps on riverbanks) attached to later Hindu temples.
origins of Swastika in South Asia lies in IVC- And? It was one of the many IVC seals with absolutely no evidence of any special connotation. Nobody even knows for a certain whether it was those seals which became the Hindu swastika.
there are 213 sources for that- That, being?
the legend of Mahishasura might have roots in IVC as seal 279; it is the view of B. Ya. Volchok, whose heydays have been over long ago. TrangaBellam ( talk) 18:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
Have you checked the prim. author of the article? Doniger et al writen
Yes I have checked, there are multiple authors of this article, not one.
And? It was one of the many IVC seals with absolutely no evidence of any special connotation. Nobody even knows for a certain whether it was those seals which became the Hindu swastika.
Hmmm noice, that's a good thought. You should publish a blog on that, but I am sorry to inform you that we publish what reliable sources are stating.
That, being?You wish that I start digging up specific scholarship on Mother Goddess rather than books covering the topic in a couple of lines? Harappa.com contains a quote from Parpola, which does not invoke any relation between the current cult and IVC.
I never asked you to dig up specific scholarship for Mother Goddess. I only asked you to open Swastika article and see the number of sources available for the claim.
I used Harrapa.com only for one sentence and that was
This culture has survived in South Asian villages (mainly in India)
Sullivan's probabilistic line is unclear (is he talking 'bout the ritual of water buffalo sacrifice?); c.f. Bihani Sarkar (OUP, 2017).
Suillivan is crystal clear about what he's talking about. Let me elaborate it for you. He's saying that that Durga puja and it's practices are not Vedic in nature and has IVC roots, which was later incorporated in Brahmanical religion. Not to mention he also mentions the legend of mahishasura.
Noel Salmond is not an Indologist and his book is on a faraway topic; a fringe archaeologist
Ummm... No, He has doctorate in Asian religions. As far as my brain cells are working, having a doctorate in Asian religions makes him a reliable author.
says that the links between IVC stones and Hindu lingams are not quite proved but [merely] probable. Hiltebeitel nowhere supports that the legend of Mahishasura might have roots in IVC as seal 279; it is the view of B. Ya. Volchok, whose heydays have been over long ago.
By this statement I am assuming that you have very little or no knowledge about Hinduism. There are countless scholars adhering to the same point about Lingam. Do you want me to list the authors? I recommend you reading about Basics of Hinduism.
Your claim that someone taking a 'dim' view of the subject justifies your redirect is making no sense. Coverage is what matters, you can't redirect a page that happens to cover a highly notable subject. LearnIndology ( talk) 03:25, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
hypothesis never seemed convincing? TrangaBellam ( talk) 04:49, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
Consider the large bathing tank found in the citadel at Mohenjo-Daro, which is forty by twenty-three feet in length and width, and eight feet deep. To Parpola, this suggests ritual bathing, central to later Hinduism. But all that this structure really tells us is that the people of the IVC liked to bathe. Another example: noting the many images of women in the IVC, Parpola argues that the worship of Durga in “village Hinduism” is connected to the worship of Mesopotamian and Harappan fertility goddesses. The Rig Vedic goddess of speech, Vac, Parpola argues, also has Mesopotamian or Harappan origins. But not every woman is a goddess, and why should images of women symbolize fertility—or, indeed, speech?
Similar problems arise in the interpretation of buffaloes. Parpola assumes that buffalo sculptures show that people of the IVC worshipped the buffalo; the Harappan buffalo sacrifice, he argues, was replaced by the Vedic horse sacrifice. But why assume that buffaloes were sacrificed, rather than merely eaten, or harnessed for use? The IVC images of animals and plants are often breathtakingly beautiful, and highly imaginative. Might they not simply be artistic images springing from the human impulse to create art, an impulse every bit as universal as the impulse to worship? Why must the wonderful fig trees at Harappa be the source of sacred trees in Hinduism?
We should now consider the “sames” — namely the continuity he [Parpola] sees between the Indus civilization and post-Vedic Hinduism. First is the question by what mechanism Harappan concepts and practices could have been transferred to the Indo-Aryans, since the Indus civilization essentially ended in the very early second millennium bce. It is a major conceptual leap from the undeniable statement that classical Hinduism differs in major ways from Vedic religion to the claim that much of what is non-Vedic in classical Hinduism should be attributed to the Indus civilization, whose flowering essentially ended at least 1500 years before "classical Hinduism" began.
TrangaBellam ( talk) 04:32, 9 August 2021 (UTC)This Indus-orientated section of The Roots of Hinduism does contain both a wealth of impressive scholarship and somewhat speculative claims for which available evi-dence is marshalled, rather than necessarily critically interrogated ... while it is commonly suggested that the Indus civilization was ruled by Kings or Priest-kings (231), the claim is not proven, which problematizes the author’s thesis that Vedic rites of kingship derived from Harappan royal rituals origi-nally transmitted from West Asia.
The claim to connection between early sexualized rituals such as those of the early Vedic vrātyas and Tantrism, which in its fully developed form is much more than a millennium later, is particularly controversial (251), while the use of the similarly late Kālikā Purāṇa as evidence in discussion of the Indus culture is equally problematic—entirely different historical trajectories could be proposed to explain concordances. The same is true for any possible concordance between the Vedic Śambara and the much later Tantric deity Cakrasaṃvara. Such claimed transmissions over vast periods of time leave us with little alternative but to allow the rather unsatisfactory explanatory device of the “sub-stratum”.
LearnIndology, Hiltebeitel, Alf (1989). "Hinduism". p. 5 In Kitagawa, Joseph (ed.). The Religious Traditions of Asia: Religion, History, and Culture. Routledge. notes,
The notion that features of Indus Valley religion form a stream with later non-Aryan religious currents that percolate into Hinduism has somewhat dismissively been called the substratum theory by opponents who argue in favor of treating the development of Hinduism derivable from within its own sacred literature.
Please explain your removal or you will be at WP:AE. TrangaBellam ( talk) 06:43, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
[Y]ou mislabeled "opponents" as "scholars"- Are you serious? TrangaBellam ( talk) 07:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
@ TrangaBellam: I copy-edited that line diff. Hiltebeitel (1989) also states that continuities are likely. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 17:09, 10 August 2021 (UTC)
? I can't access Rita Wright, but I've studied psychology of religion, and theology, and work in the field, and this phrase doesn't ring a bell with me.
A religious ideology can be defined as a set of ideas that refer to religious and secular tools and accompany political actions and processes in a sustained and systematic way.
The research suggests that there was a rich religious ideology that probably focused on transformation and sympathetic magic and possibly even shamanism, rather than on a single Mother Goddess, a long-standing myth.
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:17, 25 September 2021 (UTC)