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I see at least two aspects.
Thoughts?-- Erp 22:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
“The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.”
maybe also the issue with the Boy Scout Jamboree and the ACLU.... Blueaster 07:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Might also be worth considering what happens when Scouting policy and religious faith are at odds. For example, the problems that the BSA had with the UUA over homosexuality (UUA tolerates it, BSA does not — and yes, I know that's an oversimplification) or the formation of the American Heritage Girls over the perceived de-Christianising of GSUCA's religious and sexual orientation policies. Also, policies of non- WAGGGS and non- WOSM groups, such as Camp Fire USA, whose Law includes "Worship God" and whose membership "is open to all youth of any [...] creed, religion, [etc.]"—Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.106.4 ( talk • contribs)
Why does this articel even exist ? Shouldnt the contents be covered by a general article about scouts ? 90.229.129.131 ( talk) 12:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I appreciate that some people consider the sentence:
to be POV - but how can a citation be provided to show lack of something? How do you reference articles that weren't written about a problem that did not exist? Horus Kol 11:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I just want to take exception with calling it original research. The mere fact that a citation is not provided does not make something original research. It is still entirely possible that the fact can be provided with a citation. Right now, it's merely uncited. You can mark it with a {{fact}} tag to indicate that. Wjhonson 17:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
A lot of edits are reverting back and forth between British and American English. Let's pick one and stay with it. Rlevse 14:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
An added link here might be of value: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouts_et_Guides_de_France . Thus, in France 'Scoutism' seems to have acquired a Roman Catholic connotation. For 'Non-Catholics' in France there is a similar but 'neutral' organisation, 'Eclaireurs': http://www.eclaireurs.org/ 86.138.126.188 15:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The citation that Egel provided did not directly address the question of the District Commissioners' discretion in accepting a particular adult and judging whether that adult's beliefs "will not interfere with the spiritual development of the young people in their charge". However, it was a very good bit of information, so I moved it to a more relevant spot rather than delete it. If Egel or Horus Kol could provide a citation that verifies that the DCs have the stated discretion, that would be grand. In the mean time, I've restored the {{fact}} tag.
Sincerely, "fly-by anonymous poster"
Given the WP:V problems detailed above, how about something like:
Perhaps adding a citation of the confidentiality rule in the POR. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.202.106.49 ( talk) 14:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
I've added a new section for Historical practice, to cover the gap between BP's original intentions and the practices of the last couple of decades. Could someone with a greater knowledge of this period than I expand this section? Thanks, "f.-b. a. e."
The way the article is shaping up, I'm wondering if we might consider a little restructuring. It looks like there are two main themes to the subject of "Religion in Scouting": (1) the role of religion and spiritual development in Scouting and the Scout method, and (2) the participation of people of different (or no) faith as members, leaders, etc. Both of these themes can be considered in each section (Founder's views, historical practice, current interpretations, etc), and can be the starting point for the discussion of a lot of interesting and relevant Scouting subjects. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.202.106.49 ( talk) 00:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
We need to be careful not to be too US centric. I've just done a bit of a reorg but I would be interested on any info on Scouts Own which for some scouting groups is religious. Oddly enought the BSA on its web site states
The GSUSA have a quite different take. -- Erp 02:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Isn't there a concept in Scouting of those "still seeking" spiritual enlightenment or something to that effect? (Those who may question a higher power than man but who are "still seeking" should not be denied membership in Scouting.) -- Jagz 01:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing something, but the ordering of the headings and sub headings appear illogical.
In section 4, we have the issues as they relate to Scouts/ Guides in several different countries. Then we continue the list under section 5.2.
Should the sub-sub- headings under 5.2 be moved to section 4, or is my limited understanding of the movement leaving me missing a vital point here? Could someone clarify for me please? WotherspoonSmith 09:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I removed the section heading "Historical practice" from the article because the section was empty. -- Jagz 02:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure how this is supposed to fit in with BSA membership and the exclusion of atheists and agnostics. The first and second paragraphs seem apologetic and rather vague. The board of review material is very much like a how-to. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
And yet, since 1920 the Boy Scouts of America has allowed Buddhist members, chartered Buddhist units, and recognized Buddhist religious awards. This treatment of a faith that famously has no creator deity considerably blurs the "hard line."
The above language from a site maintained "on behalf of" the BSA, might be read in light of Buddhist Scouting and this statement by the BSA itself:
"The Boy Scouts of America does not define God for a Scout, nor does it interpret God's rules. Those are matters, as said above, left to home and to the religious body to which the Scout belongs. The board of review does not serve as an inquisition into the correctness of a Scout's perceptions, rather it seeks to determine whether the Scout has fulfilled his duty in a way he sees fit, keeping in mind his profession of a particular faith.
Discussion of a Scout's religion is very appropriate at a board of review, but it should be done with respect and appreciation for the variety of faiths and beliefs in the United States. An open-ended question like "How do you honor the 12th point of the Scout Law?" will allow the boy to discuss his religious beliefs. A blunt "Do you believe in God?" should be avoided as there are some religions that do not use the name "God" for their supreme being or higher power.
A Scout may fulfill this duty without being a member of a particular denomination or religion. In these cases, a board will want to understand, through informal discussion, what a Scout feels about this particular duty, how he sees himself in relation to his beliefs, and how he fulfills them. It is very common for adolescent boys to question religion, particularly formal religion. If a candidate indicates that he is not certain about religion, the board should ask how he is trying address his uncertainty and to fulfill his duty to God." ("Board of Review Training" at Scouting.Org)
COMMENT 5/13/08 10:40 GMT It would be simpler if the Boy Scouts of America did exclude all atheists. However, it does not. More accurately, it excludes those who have no faith in any "higher power." Such is its historic practice for decades and that practice is reflected in its official policy on questioning Scouts as to whetehr they have met their "duty to God," which I quoted. Would links to the policy and to the Buddhist Scouting webpage be more appropriate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas Linton ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
But all are agreed that the Tathagatagarbha is an immortal, inherent transcendental Essence and that it resides in a concealed state (concealed by mental and behavioural negativities) in every single being.
I question why LDS-BSA Relationships is not described an international Body. The LDS Church as more members outside the Untied States then inside. The LDS-BSA Relationships serves scouting in more then just the US. It clearly is just as "International" as a "Catholic Conference", even if it doesn't us the word "International".-- ARTEST4ECHO ( talk/ contribs) 13:27, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Egel added it. I removed it with the Edit summary "Removed the 'pioneered' portable alter pic. Hardly a radical idea, no proof it hadn't been done elsewhere, and pretty trivial anyway." Egel put it back, with the Edit summary "image was removed for an irrelevant reason".
Ignoring the fact that I gave THREE reasons,, not just one, it's a pretty insulting Edit summary. My Edit summary gives my views on this, along with the fact that we don't even have any text on activities in France under Current practices, just that odd pic. It has no context, no explanation, and a crappy justification.
I will remove it again and ask Egel to discuss it here. HiLo48 ( talk) 01:18, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
For all Australians, who construct new verbs from nouns, and vice versa, at the drop of a hat, going from "pioneering" to "to pioneer" to "pioneered" is not, as we say, a "big ask"! I am surprised that Hilo did not make the connection. -- Bduke (Discussion) 12:34, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Membership requirements are really a subset of Current Practices and so we should probably merge the two sections and have all discussion of the BSA in one place, all discussion of the Scouting Association in one place, etc. Subsection by country and then organization. Any thoughts before I go ahead? -- Erp ( talk) 00:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
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A fact from Religion in Scouting appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 4 December 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I see at least two aspects.
Thoughts?-- Erp 22:17, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
“The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.”
maybe also the issue with the Boy Scout Jamboree and the ACLU.... Blueaster 07:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Might also be worth considering what happens when Scouting policy and religious faith are at odds. For example, the problems that the BSA had with the UUA over homosexuality (UUA tolerates it, BSA does not — and yes, I know that's an oversimplification) or the formation of the American Heritage Girls over the perceived de-Christianising of GSUCA's religious and sexual orientation policies. Also, policies of non- WAGGGS and non- WOSM groups, such as Camp Fire USA, whose Law includes "Worship God" and whose membership "is open to all youth of any [...] creed, religion, [etc.]"—Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.202.106.4 ( talk • contribs)
Why does this articel even exist ? Shouldnt the contents be covered by a general article about scouts ? 90.229.129.131 ( talk) 12:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
I appreciate that some people consider the sentence:
to be POV - but how can a citation be provided to show lack of something? How do you reference articles that weren't written about a problem that did not exist? Horus Kol 11:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I just want to take exception with calling it original research. The mere fact that a citation is not provided does not make something original research. It is still entirely possible that the fact can be provided with a citation. Right now, it's merely uncited. You can mark it with a {{fact}} tag to indicate that. Wjhonson 17:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
A lot of edits are reverting back and forth between British and American English. Let's pick one and stay with it. Rlevse 14:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
An added link here might be of value: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouts_et_Guides_de_France . Thus, in France 'Scoutism' seems to have acquired a Roman Catholic connotation. For 'Non-Catholics' in France there is a similar but 'neutral' organisation, 'Eclaireurs': http://www.eclaireurs.org/ 86.138.126.188 15:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The citation that Egel provided did not directly address the question of the District Commissioners' discretion in accepting a particular adult and judging whether that adult's beliefs "will not interfere with the spiritual development of the young people in their charge". However, it was a very good bit of information, so I moved it to a more relevant spot rather than delete it. If Egel or Horus Kol could provide a citation that verifies that the DCs have the stated discretion, that would be grand. In the mean time, I've restored the {{fact}} tag.
Sincerely, "fly-by anonymous poster"
Given the WP:V problems detailed above, how about something like:
Perhaps adding a citation of the confidentiality rule in the POR. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.202.106.49 ( talk) 14:02, 6 December 2006 (UTC).
I've added a new section for Historical practice, to cover the gap between BP's original intentions and the practices of the last couple of decades. Could someone with a greater knowledge of this period than I expand this section? Thanks, "f.-b. a. e."
The way the article is shaping up, I'm wondering if we might consider a little restructuring. It looks like there are two main themes to the subject of "Religion in Scouting": (1) the role of religion and spiritual development in Scouting and the Scout method, and (2) the participation of people of different (or no) faith as members, leaders, etc. Both of these themes can be considered in each section (Founder's views, historical practice, current interpretations, etc), and can be the starting point for the discussion of a lot of interesting and relevant Scouting subjects. Thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.202.106.49 ( talk) 00:51, 7 December 2006 (UTC).
We need to be careful not to be too US centric. I've just done a bit of a reorg but I would be interested on any info on Scouts Own which for some scouting groups is religious. Oddly enought the BSA on its web site states
The GSUSA have a quite different take. -- Erp 02:15, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Isn't there a concept in Scouting of those "still seeking" spiritual enlightenment or something to that effect? (Those who may question a higher power than man but who are "still seeking" should not be denied membership in Scouting.) -- Jagz 01:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing something, but the ordering of the headings and sub headings appear illogical.
In section 4, we have the issues as they relate to Scouts/ Guides in several different countries. Then we continue the list under section 5.2.
Should the sub-sub- headings under 5.2 be moved to section 4, or is my limited understanding of the movement leaving me missing a vital point here? Could someone clarify for me please? WotherspoonSmith 09:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I removed the section heading "Historical practice" from the article because the section was empty. -- Jagz 02:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure how this is supposed to fit in with BSA membership and the exclusion of atheists and agnostics. The first and second paragraphs seem apologetic and rather vague. The board of review material is very much like a how-to. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 18:04, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
And yet, since 1920 the Boy Scouts of America has allowed Buddhist members, chartered Buddhist units, and recognized Buddhist religious awards. This treatment of a faith that famously has no creator deity considerably blurs the "hard line."
The above language from a site maintained "on behalf of" the BSA, might be read in light of Buddhist Scouting and this statement by the BSA itself:
"The Boy Scouts of America does not define God for a Scout, nor does it interpret God's rules. Those are matters, as said above, left to home and to the religious body to which the Scout belongs. The board of review does not serve as an inquisition into the correctness of a Scout's perceptions, rather it seeks to determine whether the Scout has fulfilled his duty in a way he sees fit, keeping in mind his profession of a particular faith.
Discussion of a Scout's religion is very appropriate at a board of review, but it should be done with respect and appreciation for the variety of faiths and beliefs in the United States. An open-ended question like "How do you honor the 12th point of the Scout Law?" will allow the boy to discuss his religious beliefs. A blunt "Do you believe in God?" should be avoided as there are some religions that do not use the name "God" for their supreme being or higher power.
A Scout may fulfill this duty without being a member of a particular denomination or religion. In these cases, a board will want to understand, through informal discussion, what a Scout feels about this particular duty, how he sees himself in relation to his beliefs, and how he fulfills them. It is very common for adolescent boys to question religion, particularly formal religion. If a candidate indicates that he is not certain about religion, the board should ask how he is trying address his uncertainty and to fulfill his duty to God." ("Board of Review Training" at Scouting.Org)
COMMENT 5/13/08 10:40 GMT It would be simpler if the Boy Scouts of America did exclude all atheists. However, it does not. More accurately, it excludes those who have no faith in any "higher power." Such is its historic practice for decades and that practice is reflected in its official policy on questioning Scouts as to whetehr they have met their "duty to God," which I quoted. Would links to the policy and to the Buddhist Scouting webpage be more appropriate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomas Linton ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
But all are agreed that the Tathagatagarbha is an immortal, inherent transcendental Essence and that it resides in a concealed state (concealed by mental and behavioural negativities) in every single being.
I question why LDS-BSA Relationships is not described an international Body. The LDS Church as more members outside the Untied States then inside. The LDS-BSA Relationships serves scouting in more then just the US. It clearly is just as "International" as a "Catholic Conference", even if it doesn't us the word "International".-- ARTEST4ECHO ( talk/ contribs) 13:27, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Egel added it. I removed it with the Edit summary "Removed the 'pioneered' portable alter pic. Hardly a radical idea, no proof it hadn't been done elsewhere, and pretty trivial anyway." Egel put it back, with the Edit summary "image was removed for an irrelevant reason".
Ignoring the fact that I gave THREE reasons,, not just one, it's a pretty insulting Edit summary. My Edit summary gives my views on this, along with the fact that we don't even have any text on activities in France under Current practices, just that odd pic. It has no context, no explanation, and a crappy justification.
I will remove it again and ask Egel to discuss it here. HiLo48 ( talk) 01:18, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
For all Australians, who construct new verbs from nouns, and vice versa, at the drop of a hat, going from "pioneering" to "to pioneer" to "pioneered" is not, as we say, a "big ask"! I am surprised that Hilo did not make the connection. -- Bduke (Discussion) 12:34, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Membership requirements are really a subset of Current Practices and so we should probably merge the two sections and have all discussion of the BSA in one place, all discussion of the Scouting Association in one place, etc. Subsection by country and then organization. Any thoughts before I go ahead? -- Erp ( talk) 00:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
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