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For a June 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Church websites
Matrixism is a reasonable attempt to start an internet based religion, this is clearly within the parameters of Religion and the internet. Personally, I think Matrixism should not currently be listed at List of Religions, because for example, they are insufficiently notable to have their own article. Being insufficiently notable to have their own article does not however mean they have been censored from ever being mentioned. In the context of this article, giving them a mention is proportionate. 80.189.198.225 10:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Jeff, I have read the various discussions you mentioned. Wikipedia is about writing an encyclopedia, not a committee that decides religious truth. Tons of people may be very rude about a philosophy, that does not mean the philosophy should not be mentioned. Much of the scathing remarks could have been made about Digital Philosophy or Scientology. The fact persons who consider themselves followers of Matrixism are not currently prepared to work inside the rules of Wikipedia, does not prove the concept should not be mentioned. This article is about religion and the internet, I am suggesting they are notable enough for a mention. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting they should have a mention on List of Religions until they have their own article. 80.189.197.184 15:13, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Jeff, you're absolutely right. Doubtless, you will be very pleased to know that I have taken your advice and changed the reference to a secondary source. 80.189.184.21 16:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Matrixism is included in the following books about religious movements:
"Religion and Popular Culture: A Hyper-Real Testament" Dr. Adam Possamai, Peter Lang Publishing Group 2005 ISBN 90-5201-272-5 / US- ISBN 0-8204-6634-4 pb.
"The Joy of Sects" Sam Jordison Publisher: Robson Books Publication Date: 7 November 2005 ISBN 1861059051
"In Search of New Age Spiritualities" Adam Possamai, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. 2005 ISBN 0754652130
The two books written by A. Possamai are considered scholarly references written by an expert in the field of new religious movements. Their can be no reasonable argument about their use as a primary source. 71.133.171.214 18:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for contributing. Although Jeff3000 has a much better understanding of this, I surmise the geocities web site is a primary source, the books are secondary and the newspaper linked to below is secondary and tertiary. Addhoc 18:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
You assume that the only place that Dr. Possamai got his information is from the website. Being an expert in the field I believe his conclusions as a religious scholar are a primary source. 71.133.168.151 01:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I didn't realise that "In Search of New Age Spiritualities" was a PhD thesis and in everyday usage that would be a primary source. However according to WP:RS "A secondary source summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources. Secondary sources produced by scholars and published by scholarly presses are carefully vetted for quality control and can be considered authoritative." Addhoc 14:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
"Religion and the internet" is a wide issue, we shouldn't give undue weight to a single scholar, much less a subject (Matrixism) that may or may not be a serious subject of study for said scholar. — Philwelch t 19:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems that some of the editors here are playing fast and loose with the phrase "not notable". Clearly if "matrixism" is referenced in this many publications it is notable as something. Wether you want to call that something a religion or hoax that aspect is debatable but I say it is notable none-the-less. 63.194.166.252 22:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
According to WP:HOAX there must be thousands of persons taken in by a hoax. However, if Adam Possamai considers Matrixism an emergent religion and this is reported in the press, then I would suggest Matrixism is notable enough for a very brief mention. Addhoc 09:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Previously, Matrixism was mentioned as:
Recently, there have been attempts to establish religions that are purely based on the internet, for example Matrixism, inspired by The Matrix film, has the central doctrine that The One will bring about world peace before 2199. 1.
Suggested revision as follows:
There have also been attempts to establish religions that are purely based on the internet, for example Matrixism, inspired by The Matrix film, which started as a hoax, claims to have over 500 followers. 1.
The reference is a Scotsman newspaper article that reviewed a book The Joy of Sects, which mentioned Matrixism. Could persons who disagree with including this, explain their concerns... Addhoc 13:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jeff, I fully agree there is a very big difference between the Babi Religion that has survived for over 150 years and Matrixism and there is no question the Babi Religion is more notable. There is another reference that answers your comment regarding one of the books 2. So we now have two books and two newspapers. I would consider that sufficient. Addhoc 14:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC) (previously 80.189.???)
Ok, in terms of what sort of compromise we could be realistically agree on, what about rephrasing the sentence to be about the academic research into emergent internet based religions? Addhoc 16:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
As soon as I have more free time, I'm going to the library and checking out this damn book. You'll all see. — Philwelch t 22:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Don't bother, Matrixism in 'Religion and Popular Culture: a Hyper-Real Testament' by Dr. Adam Possamai: "At the time of proofreading the manuscript, I received an e-mail from the acting secretary of Matrixism letting me know of this newly emergent religion. It is based on the motion picture trilogy The Matrix and is claimed to have a history that goes back nearly one hundred years. Through an exchange of e-mails, I was told that Matrixism started at the end of July 2004, and since then, over three hundred people have joined this religion. Aside from people getting together, Matrixism takes place on the Internet. Surfing their Web Site at http://www.geocities.com/matrixism2069, we can discover a link with the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies and Matrixism’s influence from Huxley’s Doors of Perception. There are also parallels with the Baha’i Faith to validate the religious aspect of the trilogy. This clearly relates to the possible expansion of hyper-real religion in our society." Addhoc 20:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Adam Possamai is an expert in the study of new religions. Also, his quotes at [6] indicate he considers Matrixism a religion. Matrixism is the probably the only internet based religion and therefore in my opinion, should be mentioned in the same way as Partenia, the only cyber-diocese. Addhoc 11:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
A bad faith revert is defined as "reverting most or all of a legitimate edit to an older version without explanation in the edit summary or anywhere else". All editors are expected to explain reverts and reverts with no edit summary are suspicious. This applies to everyone, except Jimbo of course, including admins for example, mentioning no names. Unless the last revert is justified, then I suggest that in the context of no counterargument being produced, I should reinsert the proposed change. Addhoc 13:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Bad faith reverts are considered vandalism and the description of a bad faith revert isn't mine, I was quoting. You are required to explain all your reverts. As I have already said, I would obviously make an exception for Jimbo, but not simply because you have admin rights. I have never engaged in any form of vandalism as I have already said on your talk page, to which you have reluctantly agreed. The situation is that an internationally respected academic considers Matrixism a religion and you don't. You have not explained why Matrixism is a hoax but other religions such as Jediism or Join Me are not. You are required to produce reasons, not just block anyone who disagrees with you about content. Addhoc 18:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I confirm that you are not an exception to rules including the requirement to explain reverts. While I acknowledge that you do not enjoy repeating yourself, regardless you are required to explain each revert. You do not appear to be contesting my statement that I have never engaged in any form of vandalism. I acknowledge that in your opinion Matrixism is not a religion, which you have said more than once. However, an internationally respected academic does consider Matrixism a religion and this has been reported in the media. If the situation is that you disagree with an expert, then ok, you are entitled to your opinion. However, in this case, I would be justified in reinserting the proposed change, provided this was supported by the references. Addhoc 21:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The link I provided provides examples of things that definitely should not be in Wikipedia, but more generally indicates that not everything that is verifiable should be in Wikipedia. I would read the essay WP:Notability. As PhillWilch has commented on many times, Adam Possamai does not seem to have done any independent analysis of Matrixism, and has just regurgitated the geocities info. -- Jeff3000 11:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, we appear to agree there are several criteria for inclusion, which include notability. The essay WP:Notability is fine, but possibly would be of slightly more interest if this was a discussion over a Matrixism article. In the terms of the essay the fact that Matrixism is the probably the only internet based religion could be worth mentioning. I am prepared to entertain the argument that Sam Jordison author of "Joy of Sects" is a popular author instead of a serious researcher, which appears to be hinted at by [8]. However Adam Possamai is a world renowned expert and User:Philwelch isn't. If Philwelch disagrees with a leading expert in a field of research, then ok. But this is about verifiability not truth, "articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false". The references clearly support mentioning Matrixism. In this context, I would be justified in giving Matrixism a very brief mention, possibly noting that Matrixism is the only internet based religion. Addhoc 12:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Adam Possamai's opinion is not based on scholarly research, but rather on taking an unsolicited email at face value. Possamai's scholarly work does not contain any study of Matrixism in any depth or detail--only passing comments. Maybe you've never been to a university. I have. A scholar mentioning something in passing is different from a scholar publishing a well-thought-through conclusion after conducting research. All we have from Possamai is a passing comment, and citing passing comments from a single scholar in this article is undue weight. Mentioning Matrixism as if it is a bona fide religion will be treated as a hoax and will result in blocks. I guarantee it. — Philwelch t 00:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, verifiability not truth, "articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false". I appreciate that you genuinely consider the material to be false. Again from verifiability not truth, "verifiability in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research, because original research may not be published in Wikipedia". There are two references that you dispute 1 and 2. However, your role is not to start your own investigation into academic research findings or a press article. Also, this is a content dispute and consequently, I don't consider blocks to be appropriate, provided we assume good faith, avoid personal attacks and explain our reverts. You could be interested that I have recently signed up to the Harmonious Editing Club and hence am limiting myself to 1RR. Addhoc 10:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I prodded this article earlier, and if the prod tag is removed without discussion I'm more than willing to take this article to AfD. Why? Simply put, the overall quality of this article is so low that if this article were deleted, the project wouldn't lose any usable content and we might be able to start over again on a better footing. An interesting point was made on the mailing list a few months ago that Wikipedia has proven to be an incredibly powerful engine for generating content—powerful enough that instead of holding onto crappy content and hoping to make something good out of it, perhaps it would be better to delete it, since keeping around poor content encourages more of the same.
What makes this article a poor article?
If this article can be cleaned up I welcome any attempts to do so, or any suggestions as to how I can help. (Personally I think doing so would be a magnificent distraction from the pettier issues we've faced with regards to this article.) — Philwelch t 00:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have rewritten this article, cutting a lot of extraneous stuff, in the hope of keeping it here. This is clearly an area that needs an article.
DJ Clayworth
04:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
PhilWelch, you have deleted any mention to Adam Possamai, but not Gary Bunt. Could you explain... Addhoc 21:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
From what I have read A.Possamai appears to be one of the most prominent of a very few leading authorities on the subject of internet based new religious movements. In this context Addhoc's mention of him andhis work seems well proportioned. 71.243.118.2 08:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
References
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In order to avoid this being a very boring article, I think we need to agree that there are things we don't need to say here. One is that "there are a lot of websites that talk about religion on the web". Or maybe we should say that, but then stop. There is no point, having said that, in saying "There are many websites about Hinduism, some talking about Hinduism in general and some about one part of it". I think it's a given these days that any subject worth discussing has hundreds of websites.
The place we should be focussing is unusual web initiatives, such as virtual communities, or very different ways of using the internet. DJ Clayworth 14:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, also the approach of "this a web site and this is another" doesn't help. The Hindu section would be improved if there was discussion of a vitual temple, for example. Addhoc 14:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but to avoid original research we shouldn't use the temples themselves as sources or citations. The point is to summarize academic work that's already been done on this issue. — Philwelch t 03:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Could have a look at [11]. Addhoc 14:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on August 2 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Rob ert 14:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Addhoc 14:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
What about religious concerns about the high amount of pornography usage on the internet. Potamus hotamus ( talk) 17:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The article should probably mention the Pastafarianism, the church of the flying spaghetti monster, grew largely with the aid of the internet. Similarly for it's sects such as Reformed Pastafarian Church. 86.42.180.213 ( talk) 11:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
That would fit in better in the articles Bigotry Intolerance etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.148.101 ( talk) 02:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Most of the incoming links to this article seem to be from articles about The Matrix, a subject apparently contentious among its editors in the past, which may explain its current blandness. But I came across this article from one about The Matrix, so I was expecting to be reading about how the Internet has influenced religious practice and thought, with an emphasis on stuff like virtual church services and possibly even significant discussion relating to posthumanism; rather than a sort of generic essay about the web presence of various religious groups, which could just as easily be about the television or print presence of said groups, and could be deleted based on WP:WHIM, as suggested earlier in an AfD discussion for this article. I guess I'd like to nominate this a second time for deletion as unencyclopedic, but in good faith, I'd rather invite discussion on changing the focus of this article as I suggested above. B7T ( talk) 04:55, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
I've seen a number of articles that attribute -in part- the decline in religious affiliation to internet usage.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/526111/how-the-internet-is-taking-away-americas-religion/ http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15328415JMR0203_01 (Paid)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
For a June 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Church websites
Matrixism is a reasonable attempt to start an internet based religion, this is clearly within the parameters of Religion and the internet. Personally, I think Matrixism should not currently be listed at List of Religions, because for example, they are insufficiently notable to have their own article. Being insufficiently notable to have their own article does not however mean they have been censored from ever being mentioned. In the context of this article, giving them a mention is proportionate. 80.189.198.225 10:47, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Jeff, I have read the various discussions you mentioned. Wikipedia is about writing an encyclopedia, not a committee that decides religious truth. Tons of people may be very rude about a philosophy, that does not mean the philosophy should not be mentioned. Much of the scathing remarks could have been made about Digital Philosophy or Scientology. The fact persons who consider themselves followers of Matrixism are not currently prepared to work inside the rules of Wikipedia, does not prove the concept should not be mentioned. This article is about religion and the internet, I am suggesting they are notable enough for a mention. For the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting they should have a mention on List of Religions until they have their own article. 80.189.197.184 15:13, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Jeff, you're absolutely right. Doubtless, you will be very pleased to know that I have taken your advice and changed the reference to a secondary source. 80.189.184.21 16:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Matrixism is included in the following books about religious movements:
"Religion and Popular Culture: A Hyper-Real Testament" Dr. Adam Possamai, Peter Lang Publishing Group 2005 ISBN 90-5201-272-5 / US- ISBN 0-8204-6634-4 pb.
"The Joy of Sects" Sam Jordison Publisher: Robson Books Publication Date: 7 November 2005 ISBN 1861059051
"In Search of New Age Spiritualities" Adam Possamai, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. 2005 ISBN 0754652130
The two books written by A. Possamai are considered scholarly references written by an expert in the field of new religious movements. Their can be no reasonable argument about their use as a primary source. 71.133.171.214 18:28, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for contributing. Although Jeff3000 has a much better understanding of this, I surmise the geocities web site is a primary source, the books are secondary and the newspaper linked to below is secondary and tertiary. Addhoc 18:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
You assume that the only place that Dr. Possamai got his information is from the website. Being an expert in the field I believe his conclusions as a religious scholar are a primary source. 71.133.168.151 01:48, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I didn't realise that "In Search of New Age Spiritualities" was a PhD thesis and in everyday usage that would be a primary source. However according to WP:RS "A secondary source summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources. Secondary sources produced by scholars and published by scholarly presses are carefully vetted for quality control and can be considered authoritative." Addhoc 14:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
"Religion and the internet" is a wide issue, we shouldn't give undue weight to a single scholar, much less a subject (Matrixism) that may or may not be a serious subject of study for said scholar. — Philwelch t 19:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It seems that some of the editors here are playing fast and loose with the phrase "not notable". Clearly if "matrixism" is referenced in this many publications it is notable as something. Wether you want to call that something a religion or hoax that aspect is debatable but I say it is notable none-the-less. 63.194.166.252 22:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
According to WP:HOAX there must be thousands of persons taken in by a hoax. However, if Adam Possamai considers Matrixism an emergent religion and this is reported in the press, then I would suggest Matrixism is notable enough for a very brief mention. Addhoc 09:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Previously, Matrixism was mentioned as:
Recently, there have been attempts to establish religions that are purely based on the internet, for example Matrixism, inspired by The Matrix film, has the central doctrine that The One will bring about world peace before 2199. 1.
Suggested revision as follows:
There have also been attempts to establish religions that are purely based on the internet, for example Matrixism, inspired by The Matrix film, which started as a hoax, claims to have over 500 followers. 1.
The reference is a Scotsman newspaper article that reviewed a book The Joy of Sects, which mentioned Matrixism. Could persons who disagree with including this, explain their concerns... Addhoc 13:26, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi Jeff, I fully agree there is a very big difference between the Babi Religion that has survived for over 150 years and Matrixism and there is no question the Babi Religion is more notable. There is another reference that answers your comment regarding one of the books 2. So we now have two books and two newspapers. I would consider that sufficient. Addhoc 14:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC) (previously 80.189.???)
Ok, in terms of what sort of compromise we could be realistically agree on, what about rephrasing the sentence to be about the academic research into emergent internet based religions? Addhoc 16:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
As soon as I have more free time, I'm going to the library and checking out this damn book. You'll all see. — Philwelch t 22:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Don't bother, Matrixism in 'Religion and Popular Culture: a Hyper-Real Testament' by Dr. Adam Possamai: "At the time of proofreading the manuscript, I received an e-mail from the acting secretary of Matrixism letting me know of this newly emergent religion. It is based on the motion picture trilogy The Matrix and is claimed to have a history that goes back nearly one hundred years. Through an exchange of e-mails, I was told that Matrixism started at the end of July 2004, and since then, over three hundred people have joined this religion. Aside from people getting together, Matrixism takes place on the Internet. Surfing their Web Site at http://www.geocities.com/matrixism2069, we can discover a link with the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies and Matrixism’s influence from Huxley’s Doors of Perception. There are also parallels with the Baha’i Faith to validate the religious aspect of the trilogy. This clearly relates to the possible expansion of hyper-real religion in our society." Addhoc 20:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Adam Possamai is an expert in the study of new religions. Also, his quotes at [6] indicate he considers Matrixism a religion. Matrixism is the probably the only internet based religion and therefore in my opinion, should be mentioned in the same way as Partenia, the only cyber-diocese. Addhoc 11:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
A bad faith revert is defined as "reverting most or all of a legitimate edit to an older version without explanation in the edit summary or anywhere else". All editors are expected to explain reverts and reverts with no edit summary are suspicious. This applies to everyone, except Jimbo of course, including admins for example, mentioning no names. Unless the last revert is justified, then I suggest that in the context of no counterargument being produced, I should reinsert the proposed change. Addhoc 13:09, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Bad faith reverts are considered vandalism and the description of a bad faith revert isn't mine, I was quoting. You are required to explain all your reverts. As I have already said, I would obviously make an exception for Jimbo, but not simply because you have admin rights. I have never engaged in any form of vandalism as I have already said on your talk page, to which you have reluctantly agreed. The situation is that an internationally respected academic considers Matrixism a religion and you don't. You have not explained why Matrixism is a hoax but other religions such as Jediism or Join Me are not. You are required to produce reasons, not just block anyone who disagrees with you about content. Addhoc 18:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I confirm that you are not an exception to rules including the requirement to explain reverts. While I acknowledge that you do not enjoy repeating yourself, regardless you are required to explain each revert. You do not appear to be contesting my statement that I have never engaged in any form of vandalism. I acknowledge that in your opinion Matrixism is not a religion, which you have said more than once. However, an internationally respected academic does consider Matrixism a religion and this has been reported in the media. If the situation is that you disagree with an expert, then ok, you are entitled to your opinion. However, in this case, I would be justified in reinserting the proposed change, provided this was supported by the references. Addhoc 21:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
The link I provided provides examples of things that definitely should not be in Wikipedia, but more generally indicates that not everything that is verifiable should be in Wikipedia. I would read the essay WP:Notability. As PhillWilch has commented on many times, Adam Possamai does not seem to have done any independent analysis of Matrixism, and has just regurgitated the geocities info. -- Jeff3000 11:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, we appear to agree there are several criteria for inclusion, which include notability. The essay WP:Notability is fine, but possibly would be of slightly more interest if this was a discussion over a Matrixism article. In the terms of the essay the fact that Matrixism is the probably the only internet based religion could be worth mentioning. I am prepared to entertain the argument that Sam Jordison author of "Joy of Sects" is a popular author instead of a serious researcher, which appears to be hinted at by [8]. However Adam Possamai is a world renowned expert and User:Philwelch isn't. If Philwelch disagrees with a leading expert in a field of research, then ok. But this is about verifiability not truth, "articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false". The references clearly support mentioning Matrixism. In this context, I would be justified in giving Matrixism a very brief mention, possibly noting that Matrixism is the only internet based religion. Addhoc 12:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Adam Possamai's opinion is not based on scholarly research, but rather on taking an unsolicited email at face value. Possamai's scholarly work does not contain any study of Matrixism in any depth or detail--only passing comments. Maybe you've never been to a university. I have. A scholar mentioning something in passing is different from a scholar publishing a well-thought-through conclusion after conducting research. All we have from Possamai is a passing comment, and citing passing comments from a single scholar in this article is undue weight. Mentioning Matrixism as if it is a bona fide religion will be treated as a hoax and will result in blocks. I guarantee it. — Philwelch t 00:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, verifiability not truth, "articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources, regardless of whether individual editors view that material as true or false". I appreciate that you genuinely consider the material to be false. Again from verifiability not truth, "verifiability in this context does not mean that editors are expected to verify whether, for example, the contents of a New York Times article are true. In fact, editors are strongly discouraged from conducting this kind of research, because original research may not be published in Wikipedia". There are two references that you dispute 1 and 2. However, your role is not to start your own investigation into academic research findings or a press article. Also, this is a content dispute and consequently, I don't consider blocks to be appropriate, provided we assume good faith, avoid personal attacks and explain our reverts. You could be interested that I have recently signed up to the Harmonious Editing Club and hence am limiting myself to 1RR. Addhoc 10:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I prodded this article earlier, and if the prod tag is removed without discussion I'm more than willing to take this article to AfD. Why? Simply put, the overall quality of this article is so low that if this article were deleted, the project wouldn't lose any usable content and we might be able to start over again on a better footing. An interesting point was made on the mailing list a few months ago that Wikipedia has proven to be an incredibly powerful engine for generating content—powerful enough that instead of holding onto crappy content and hoping to make something good out of it, perhaps it would be better to delete it, since keeping around poor content encourages more of the same.
What makes this article a poor article?
If this article can be cleaned up I welcome any attempts to do so, or any suggestions as to how I can help. (Personally I think doing so would be a magnificent distraction from the pettier issues we've faced with regards to this article.) — Philwelch t 00:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I have rewritten this article, cutting a lot of extraneous stuff, in the hope of keeping it here. This is clearly an area that needs an article.
DJ Clayworth
04:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
PhilWelch, you have deleted any mention to Adam Possamai, but not Gary Bunt. Could you explain... Addhoc 21:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
From what I have read A.Possamai appears to be one of the most prominent of a very few leading authorities on the subject of internet based new religious movements. In this context Addhoc's mention of him andhis work seems well proportioned. 71.243.118.2 08:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
References
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cite web}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help)
{{
cite web}}
: Check date values in: |year=
(
help)
In order to avoid this being a very boring article, I think we need to agree that there are things we don't need to say here. One is that "there are a lot of websites that talk about religion on the web". Or maybe we should say that, but then stop. There is no point, having said that, in saying "There are many websites about Hinduism, some talking about Hinduism in general and some about one part of it". I think it's a given these days that any subject worth discussing has hundreds of websites.
The place we should be focussing is unusual web initiatives, such as virtual communities, or very different ways of using the internet. DJ Clayworth 14:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, also the approach of "this a web site and this is another" doesn't help. The Hindu section would be improved if there was discussion of a vitual temple, for example. Addhoc 14:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but to avoid original research we shouldn't use the temples themselves as sources or citations. The point is to summarize academic work that's already been done on this issue. — Philwelch t 03:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Could have a look at [11]. Addhoc 14:02, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on August 2 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
Rob ert 14:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Addhoc 14:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
What about religious concerns about the high amount of pornography usage on the internet. Potamus hotamus ( talk) 17:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
The article should probably mention the Pastafarianism, the church of the flying spaghetti monster, grew largely with the aid of the internet. Similarly for it's sects such as Reformed Pastafarian Church. 86.42.180.213 ( talk) 11:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
That would fit in better in the articles Bigotry Intolerance etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.45.148.101 ( talk) 02:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Most of the incoming links to this article seem to be from articles about The Matrix, a subject apparently contentious among its editors in the past, which may explain its current blandness. But I came across this article from one about The Matrix, so I was expecting to be reading about how the Internet has influenced religious practice and thought, with an emphasis on stuff like virtual church services and possibly even significant discussion relating to posthumanism; rather than a sort of generic essay about the web presence of various religious groups, which could just as easily be about the television or print presence of said groups, and could be deleted based on WP:WHIM, as suggested earlier in an AfD discussion for this article. I guess I'd like to nominate this a second time for deletion as unencyclopedic, but in good faith, I'd rather invite discussion on changing the focus of this article as I suggested above. B7T ( talk) 04:55, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
I've seen a number of articles that attribute -in part- the decline in religious affiliation to internet usage.
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/526111/how-the-internet-is-taking-away-americas-religion/ http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/S15328415JMR0203_01 (Paid)