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"British production of Verdi's 'Don Carlos' that at one point imported toilet cubicles"
Is this not the famous ENO production of Un ballo in maschera??
Vivaverdi 01:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
We are discussing the title on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera. - Kleinzach 10:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the cleanup tag after wikifying, cleaning up and renaming the article. I hope that is acceptable to all. - Kleinzach 09:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll admit I'd never heard this term before I came across this article...but I was a little taken aback at how POV it sounded. I seriously doubt that this would ever be in an encyclopedia: "Stories also circulate of 'celebrity' producers who, though they cheerfully impose their 'interpretations' upon other people's operatic masterworks, are not actually able to follow musical scores and are observed in the theatre to be working from CD booklets in which the composer's original stage-directions are not reproduced." This is completely anecdotal and unsourced, and the use of cutesy little quote marks doesn't make it any better. It sounds like some sort of witty columnist, not a work of scholarship. The use of adverb phrases like "flatly disregarded" and "cheerfully impose" are inherently POV. Now, if there were any sources, at all, it would be much better. - Randomglitter 09:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The other main problem with this article is the absence of important information on the development of opera direction in Germany. Walter Felsenstein, rather than Wieland Wagner was really the father of Regietheater. Incidentally the Felsenstein article defines Regietheater as " productions in which drama values come before musical ones" -- Kleinzach 03:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm posting my version of the German WP article below, seeing as how we've been invited to discuss. I think it has some good discussion points, & in some ways is better than the current article. Why not replace the current article with this? Well, ideally I'd like to see an article with more citations. And understandably the German article is very centered in the world of German culture.
I do like the fact that this one attempts NPOV (most of the time). Herbivore ( talk) 00:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Regietheater is a widely-used term in theater criticism, first used in the 1970s. A production may be described as belonging to Regietheater when, in the critic’s opinion, the ideas of the director play too great a role (as opposed to those of the playwright, actors, composer, singers, conductor, etc.)
Use of the term Regietheater suggests incorrectly that it describes a single cohesive movement in theater. But there are two arguments against adopting the word as a descriptive term: 1) the term has no precise definition, and is thus applied by various writers to directors whose work has little in common; and 2) at least originally, it was used with negative connotations, and so lacks objectivity.
Regietheater as a Negative Criticism
These are the most common negative criticisms of productions labeled as Regietheater:
That they betray the intentions of the author (or in music theater, the composer), e.g. by gratuitous additions or cuts, or moving the action to a different time or place
That they distract attention from the real content of the work--usually in music theater, where directors are accused of taking attention away from the music, but also in the spoken theater, e.g. when scenes supposedly unrelated to the work itself are inserted.
That they contain additions which are not essential to the work at hand, e.g. scenes of nudity or excessive violence for their own sake.
At least originally, use of the word Regietheater was connected with the criticism that the growing number of such productions was leading to a decline in quality in the German-speaking theater. One spokesman for this view is the German director Peter Stein: “In the theater, people are free to do as they wish, but meanwhile German Regietheater is a laughing-stock throughout the world.”
History and Change
Recently, the word Regietheater has been used more and more often in a positive sense. Directors who use the word to describe their own work emphasize the need to give new interpretations to works from the past, since today’s audiences have had different experiences than those of earlier times, and accordingly must be addressed differently if the same effect is to be achieved. From this point of view, things like additions, cuts, change in time and place, etc ., are not things to be criticized, but are imperative to attain this goal.
This conscious assumption of the Regietheater label, and the attempt to rescue it from its negative associations, is found predominantly in German-speaking countries. Among leading directors in this movement are Hans Neuenfels and Peter Konwitschny—which in itself suggests that Regietheater is hardly a single unified trend.
Regietheater a Misnomer
Regietheater (literally, “directors’ theater”) is a misnomer to the extent that even the most vehement critics are not opposed to the existence of directors per se, and virtually no one today believes that a valid interpretation of a work can be staged without a director’s supervision. In this sense, Regietheater is a tautology.
Regietheater in Opera
Until about 1800, the opera world revolved around new operas. Composers inhabited the same time and culture as their audiences, and held generally the same views of the conventions and “rules” of theater. The 19th century saw the rise of repertoire theater, in which new works were performed side by side with older operas that had been successful in their day. This meant that older works were performed in a style different from that of their first performances, since views of subjects, themes and motives had changed over time, as had the technological resources of the theater, including the design of musical instruments themselves. The works of Mozart (Cosi fan tutte, for example) were much romanticized and misrepresented in the 19th century. The longer the time between a work’s premiere and its revival, the greater the need for interpretation. Thus the director came into being—the leader who, collaborating with a conductor, would give an opera production its staging and artistic form.
“Regietheater” and another word, “Werktreue” (fidelity to the work) may be used to designate two contrasting positions as to opera production today; there has been fierce debate between adherents of the two positions.
Werktreue: Those who believe than an opera can be staged in a “werktreu” manner advance the view that the intention of its creators has a validity which should be respected in performance. Since these creators are often no longer living, and no visual or sound records from their time exist, it is not always easy to say what their intention was. Thus the concept of Werktreue often has to rely on a certain performing tradition, namely that of the first half of the 20th century, with costuming and set design almost always the main criteria. Certainly, the approach to an opera can begin with the work itself and the analysis of it. The goal of a production is then above all the performance of the work itself and of its contents in the spirit of the work. Thus perhaps it is more accurate to speak of Werkgerechtigkeit (doing justice to the work) than Werktreue (fidelity to the work).
Regietheater: For many directors of opera, a production must above all connect with contemporary life and society or with their own personality. Often their interpretations will have a clear visual link to contemporary life. Aspects of the work that were clear only when the work was new will be interpreted, or re-interpreted. These productions may have the character of adaptations, in which the work is enveloped by the director’s personal interpretations. This has come to be called Regietheater. In the last half-century, when directors trained in the spoken-word theater have worked in the opera house more and more often, the practical necessities of musical theater have sometimes played a secondary role.
Every modern opera production may be located somewhere between these two extremes. But most operatic artists feel that they must do justice both to the work and to contemporary reality. Thus the director Adolf Dresen has stated, “Faithfulness to the work is just as bad for an opera as muddling through the work.” According to another widely quoted formulation on the same theme, “Tradition means passing on the torch, not worshiping the ashes.”
One recurrent challenge for directors is the Wagner festival at Bayreuth. Since the festival has been limited to the same ten Wagner operas for more than a century, it is natural that regular new interpretations of these works should be a prominent feature at the “Bayreuth workshop.”
Herbivore ( talk) 00:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I have re-deleted he controversy section, not because there is no criticism, but because what was there had been a tagged, uncited and opinionated set of text for several years. The one source didn't make the distinction between "proper" and improper regietheatre as claimed, just criticized one bad production.
I am not an opera enthusiast, and this will be my last contribution on the subject, but I would welcome a calmly written and well-sourced coverage if any controversies, of someone would choose to write one. The deleted text was not it. Pmyteh ( talk) 12:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||
|
"British production of Verdi's 'Don Carlos' that at one point imported toilet cubicles"
Is this not the famous ENO production of Un ballo in maschera??
Vivaverdi 01:13, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
We are discussing the title on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera. - Kleinzach 10:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the cleanup tag after wikifying, cleaning up and renaming the article. I hope that is acceptable to all. - Kleinzach 09:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
I'll admit I'd never heard this term before I came across this article...but I was a little taken aback at how POV it sounded. I seriously doubt that this would ever be in an encyclopedia: "Stories also circulate of 'celebrity' producers who, though they cheerfully impose their 'interpretations' upon other people's operatic masterworks, are not actually able to follow musical scores and are observed in the theatre to be working from CD booklets in which the composer's original stage-directions are not reproduced." This is completely anecdotal and unsourced, and the use of cutesy little quote marks doesn't make it any better. It sounds like some sort of witty columnist, not a work of scholarship. The use of adverb phrases like "flatly disregarded" and "cheerfully impose" are inherently POV. Now, if there were any sources, at all, it would be much better. - Randomglitter 09:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
The other main problem with this article is the absence of important information on the development of opera direction in Germany. Walter Felsenstein, rather than Wieland Wagner was really the father of Regietheater. Incidentally the Felsenstein article defines Regietheater as " productions in which drama values come before musical ones" -- Kleinzach 03:17, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm posting my version of the German WP article below, seeing as how we've been invited to discuss. I think it has some good discussion points, & in some ways is better than the current article. Why not replace the current article with this? Well, ideally I'd like to see an article with more citations. And understandably the German article is very centered in the world of German culture.
I do like the fact that this one attempts NPOV (most of the time). Herbivore ( talk) 00:40, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Regietheater is a widely-used term in theater criticism, first used in the 1970s. A production may be described as belonging to Regietheater when, in the critic’s opinion, the ideas of the director play too great a role (as opposed to those of the playwright, actors, composer, singers, conductor, etc.)
Use of the term Regietheater suggests incorrectly that it describes a single cohesive movement in theater. But there are two arguments against adopting the word as a descriptive term: 1) the term has no precise definition, and is thus applied by various writers to directors whose work has little in common; and 2) at least originally, it was used with negative connotations, and so lacks objectivity.
Regietheater as a Negative Criticism
These are the most common negative criticisms of productions labeled as Regietheater:
That they betray the intentions of the author (or in music theater, the composer), e.g. by gratuitous additions or cuts, or moving the action to a different time or place
That they distract attention from the real content of the work--usually in music theater, where directors are accused of taking attention away from the music, but also in the spoken theater, e.g. when scenes supposedly unrelated to the work itself are inserted.
That they contain additions which are not essential to the work at hand, e.g. scenes of nudity or excessive violence for their own sake.
At least originally, use of the word Regietheater was connected with the criticism that the growing number of such productions was leading to a decline in quality in the German-speaking theater. One spokesman for this view is the German director Peter Stein: “In the theater, people are free to do as they wish, but meanwhile German Regietheater is a laughing-stock throughout the world.”
History and Change
Recently, the word Regietheater has been used more and more often in a positive sense. Directors who use the word to describe their own work emphasize the need to give new interpretations to works from the past, since today’s audiences have had different experiences than those of earlier times, and accordingly must be addressed differently if the same effect is to be achieved. From this point of view, things like additions, cuts, change in time and place, etc ., are not things to be criticized, but are imperative to attain this goal.
This conscious assumption of the Regietheater label, and the attempt to rescue it from its negative associations, is found predominantly in German-speaking countries. Among leading directors in this movement are Hans Neuenfels and Peter Konwitschny—which in itself suggests that Regietheater is hardly a single unified trend.
Regietheater a Misnomer
Regietheater (literally, “directors’ theater”) is a misnomer to the extent that even the most vehement critics are not opposed to the existence of directors per se, and virtually no one today believes that a valid interpretation of a work can be staged without a director’s supervision. In this sense, Regietheater is a tautology.
Regietheater in Opera
Until about 1800, the opera world revolved around new operas. Composers inhabited the same time and culture as their audiences, and held generally the same views of the conventions and “rules” of theater. The 19th century saw the rise of repertoire theater, in which new works were performed side by side with older operas that had been successful in their day. This meant that older works were performed in a style different from that of their first performances, since views of subjects, themes and motives had changed over time, as had the technological resources of the theater, including the design of musical instruments themselves. The works of Mozart (Cosi fan tutte, for example) were much romanticized and misrepresented in the 19th century. The longer the time between a work’s premiere and its revival, the greater the need for interpretation. Thus the director came into being—the leader who, collaborating with a conductor, would give an opera production its staging and artistic form.
“Regietheater” and another word, “Werktreue” (fidelity to the work) may be used to designate two contrasting positions as to opera production today; there has been fierce debate between adherents of the two positions.
Werktreue: Those who believe than an opera can be staged in a “werktreu” manner advance the view that the intention of its creators has a validity which should be respected in performance. Since these creators are often no longer living, and no visual or sound records from their time exist, it is not always easy to say what their intention was. Thus the concept of Werktreue often has to rely on a certain performing tradition, namely that of the first half of the 20th century, with costuming and set design almost always the main criteria. Certainly, the approach to an opera can begin with the work itself and the analysis of it. The goal of a production is then above all the performance of the work itself and of its contents in the spirit of the work. Thus perhaps it is more accurate to speak of Werkgerechtigkeit (doing justice to the work) than Werktreue (fidelity to the work).
Regietheater: For many directors of opera, a production must above all connect with contemporary life and society or with their own personality. Often their interpretations will have a clear visual link to contemporary life. Aspects of the work that were clear only when the work was new will be interpreted, or re-interpreted. These productions may have the character of adaptations, in which the work is enveloped by the director’s personal interpretations. This has come to be called Regietheater. In the last half-century, when directors trained in the spoken-word theater have worked in the opera house more and more often, the practical necessities of musical theater have sometimes played a secondary role.
Every modern opera production may be located somewhere between these two extremes. But most operatic artists feel that they must do justice both to the work and to contemporary reality. Thus the director Adolf Dresen has stated, “Faithfulness to the work is just as bad for an opera as muddling through the work.” According to another widely quoted formulation on the same theme, “Tradition means passing on the torch, not worshiping the ashes.”
One recurrent challenge for directors is the Wagner festival at Bayreuth. Since the festival has been limited to the same ten Wagner operas for more than a century, it is natural that regular new interpretations of these works should be a prominent feature at the “Bayreuth workshop.”
Herbivore ( talk) 00:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
I have re-deleted he controversy section, not because there is no criticism, but because what was there had been a tagged, uncited and opinionated set of text for several years. The one source didn't make the distinction between "proper" and improper regietheatre as claimed, just criticized one bad production.
I am not an opera enthusiast, and this will be my last contribution on the subject, but I would welcome a calmly written and well-sourced coverage if any controversies, of someone would choose to write one. The deleted text was not it. Pmyteh ( talk) 12:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)