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What anthem? -- 212.247.27.34 ( talk) 01:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
As is suggested below in the air force training exercise section, there are other uses and meanings for the Red Flag besides the universal socialist banner.
However, I don't think references to them belong here, and certainly not in the first line of the article. I think we should move them to the disambiguation page, and if they are large enough to span an article, write so.
An alternative can be creating a section labelled "Other uses of the Red Flag". -- Gatonegro 12:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Does the red flag belong to Po (teletubby)? Crazy 29 12:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi all! I was surprised when I came across this article to find that there was no reference to Gaius Marius and the ancient Roman slave revolts.
When I was involved in leftist politics, the story that I had been taught was that the Red Flag became associated with socialism during the Paris commune as this article states. But before that, it had a long history of symbolizing the blood of the oppressed, martyrs or others at the bottom of the social period, that dates all the way back to the Roman Empire.
The relevant section of Gaius' ( /info/en/?search=Gaius_Marius) wikipedia page is the section labelled "Social War". The events this wikipedia page refers to, is when Giaus Marius raised an army of slaves, gladiators, and peasants with the intent of overthrowing the 'dictator' Sulla and restoring Rome to the people. The story as I was taught it, is that the slaves took white sheets, and drenched them in blood to create the red flag, and symbolize the others that had fallen. While Sulla was fighting a distant war, they overthrew Rome, and killed many at the top of the political ladder that were supporters of Sulla in an attempt to form a new political order in the nation's capital. Ultimately, they were beaten in battle by Sulla when he returned.
This is supposedly why the Paris commune chose the red flag at all. Just like the slaves of Gaius Marius, the members of the Paris commune were attempting to capitalize on their nation's involvement in a foreign war. They did so by organizing the underclass into an army, overthrowing the political leadership in their nation's capital, executing the nation's 'corrupt' leadership, and attempting to instate a new political order. They were ultimately defeated when the more traditional french forces arrived back in Paris. That is to say, it is an extremely similar series of events.
The similarity of these events, in turn, is part of why the red flag is looked upon so metaphorically and positively in the socialist community, as it paints a poetic narrative of an underclass that, for thousands of years, whether in Ancient Rome or Paris, has continuously raised the red flag and attempted to take back their nations from the aristocracy throughout history.
I am new to wikipedia, I don't even have an account, but I have found some sources via quick google searching. The book Common Cause google book link here: ( https://books.google.com/books?id=Q_E-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=red+flag+ancient+rome+slaves&source=bl&ots=5qAe2N6tD5&sig=ACfU3U2XhMB5c7at5nIGjIvRN4Zzyb-SSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuoLrq0I7qAhWlhXIEHVAuCM0Q6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=red%20flag%20ancient%20rome%20slavesplebian%20slaves&f=false) is a book from 1912, where the author is discussing how the red flag was flown during the American Revolutionary War (is this also worth putting in the article? I think this would shock most American readers). In the first paragraph on page 103, the author states that he thinks "Old Glory" (the new American Flag) should be the only flag flown in the newly formed United States, because it is untainted by the bloodshed of Gaius Marius' slave rebellion, and the long socialist history of the flag. https://revcom.us/a/045/story-red-flag.html also pops up in google with the same story.
Perhaps we need someone well schooled on ancient Rome to source this claim one way or another? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.220.214 ( talk) 20:08, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
I know this is the wrong section but I am new to wikipedia editing so apologies. My query is why is there no mention of its first use stated as in 1831??? Was not the first time the red flag flown anywhere was in 1831 on Hirwaun Common during the Merthyr rising. Its a very overlooked historical event everywhere but Wales unfortunately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.91.100 ( talk) 02:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
"The red flag was the emblem of the British Labour Party from its inception to until the Labour Party Conference of 1986 when it was replaced by a red rose. The red rose has subsequently been adopted by a number of other socialist and social-democratic parties throught Europe."
I believe that the British Labour Party borrowed the rose symbol from continental Europe, rather than the other way around. The French Socialist Party, for example, adopted "the fist and the rose" as its emblem in 1969. Does anyone else have dates for other European socialist parties? Picapica 22:49, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have amended the article to reflect this discussion-- Wickifrank ( talk) 15:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
The song "The Red Flag" remains the anthem of the British Labour Party, should this be noted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.151.174 ( talk) 23:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I have so noted in the article--
Wickifrank (
talk)
15:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Red Flag is also an air force training exercise supposedly and apparently simulating each air force member's first ten "missions" or days of war. These first ten are by far the riskiest in anyone's term of war, whether they joined the war at the start or the end. Someone is practically invincible after these first ten days or "missions". While obviously no training can or should perfectly simulate this experience, Red Flag's realism brings it close to the real first ten days or "missions" and is even more difficult and intense than reality. (Difficult and intense in terms of skill, of course. In real combat, one still has to deal with the danger and loss of life.) "Death" replaces death, training failure replaces mission failure, and preparation ensures victory. FET 00:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
It would appear he has more than are used for this article to "confirm what (you) say." Any other topic category in wiki would get a banner demanding sources, so why not this one? Hmm?--Buckboard 05:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
In the book The Russian Civil War (1) The Red Army ( ISBN 1-85532-608-6) the author (Mikhail Khvostov) says that the Red Flag was traditionally flown from tall buildings in villages with a plague epidemic. He also suggests that because of this, in the Russian Civil War, White Russian armies steered clear of villages held by the Red Army as they saw the Red Flag and thoght the village was diseased.
Is this any good? Perhaps it could be included in the History section of the article (Russia bit),as a historic use of the Red Flag?
PJB 17:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC) ( Talkin' to me?)
Cheers
PJB 16:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC) ( Talkin' to me?)
This socialist website link mentions the 'Significance of the Red Flag'. Is it useful info to go in the article or as a link? PJ B 21:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
In the history section it's stated that the red flag came to symbolise a less bloodthirsty message beginning in the early 17th century, but the flag hadn't acquired that reputation until the 18th century, thanks to the Buccaneers (who had became especially sadistic by the time piracy was dying out in the early 18th century), and thanks to the Jacobins of 1792-1795. Before them, it was just a battle-flag. Any objections to removing the sentence?
The Paris Commune article says of Lenin:
At his funeral, his body was wrapped in the remains of a red and white flag preserved from the Commune.
But the Red flag article says this:
The red flag subsequently became the banner of the Paris Commune in 1871, at which time it became firmly associated with socialism.
Who is correct? Was the flag of the Paris Commune entirely red? Or was it red and white?
(I posted this question at Talk:Paris Commune but no one volunteered an answer.) — Lawrence King ( talk) 05:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The red flag was *a* flag used by the Commune - before the time of the Commune it red flags had become a revolutionary tradition, due to their uses in 1789, 1830, 1848 (in the February and June revolutions), etc, by groups that leftists could trace a heritage from. So the sentence "The red flag subsequently became the banner of the Paris Commune in 1871, at which time it became firmly associated with socialism." is a bit misleading, because (a) the flag was already associated with the left by this time, and (b) the Commune doesn't slot neatly with one -ism: it was definately a leftist revolution, but there were many different groups working together in it including different branches of socialists, anarchists, the odd Marxist, etc. 86.160.226.192 ( talk) 12:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The photo of Jean Jaurès (or any photo of a historical event) needs a date. -- Isaac R 19:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
What is the origin of the modern methaporical usage of "raising a red flag"? e.g. here, or here or here or here or here or here. The article mentions "In pre-civil war Russia the Red flag was used as a symbol of warning...". Did modern Americans (especially when it comes to résumés and tax returns) really inherit this usage from the Russians? Ewlyahoocom 19:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The red flag was written by james connolly, the scots/irish socailist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.204.35 ( talk) 18:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I very much doubt that the words to the manchester united version of the Red Flag are accurate, primarily because it does not scan - that being the prime concern of football chants.
Any editions? Tomkeene 16:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I think this article needs to have a lot less about piracy. In the early modern period, the red flag was a flag of defiance used by both pirates and non-pirates. People at the time didn't link it to piracy, as the quote I put in from Chambers Cyclopedia shows. We shouldn't get carried away with the Hollywood notion of pirates as a people with a separate culture and traditions. The use of the red flag by Communists and other socialists is derived from its use by the Jacobins during the French Revolution -- there is no allusion to piracy. Kauffner ( talk) 04:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I have added in a section for motorsport, as the flag one of the official flags in use, which has been used across many forms of motorsport, and has a significant meaning to the race. Harvyk ( talk) 09:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph, it says that the first citation for a red flag was in 1602, and then in the same paragraph it goes on to say the first citation was in 1777. Which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.211.103 ( talk) 18:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I included one typical Russian joke about the Red flag, but did not include the second. Here it is:
I like the joke and want to re-add it, but have to agree that, yes, a source should be required on its cultural impact. Pirate Argh!!1! 03:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Why
red flag is singled out for this tacky chapter? Why Russian Folklore is singled out, and not say African folklore? There are plenty of
Russian jokes about
Estonians and Finns, or American presidents, for example, all well sourced. Would you add a chapter in
Estonians or
Bill Clinton on their coverage in Russian anekdotes? The simplest solution for Biophys is to add a chapter on Red flag to
Russian jokes not here. (
Igny (
talk)
00:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC))
The onus is to establish the validity to include. The valid reason to remove is that notability is not established. To varying degrees, all other participants have questioned the notability and you have singularly not established this. Citing the existence of the jokes does not establish their notability to the subject. The subject is not Jokes about the Red Flag in various cultures and even if it was you must demonstrate their notability. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
After being unsuccessful here, Biophys now decided to add the jokes to the
Red Banner article... -
YMB29 (
talk)
22:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
A foreigner drives to the USSR on his own car, but the car soon breaks down after falling into a huge hole in the middle of the road. The foreigner is outraged: "How come, you did not place a fence around, or even a warning sign, something red to be seen from the far?" -- Response: "Did not you see the huge Red flag when you crossed our border?".
And of course, "ty ne boisja p'janitsa nosa svoego, on ved' s nashim znamenem tsveta odnogo" (a parody to an official propaganda poetry for children: "Drunk men, do not be ashamed of your nose: it has the same color as our Flag"). No OR; this all per the book. Biophys ( talk) 20:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Should not whatever decision made here regarding the jokes apply to the Red Banner article also? - YMB29 ( talk) 20:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I was surprised to see no mention of Red Flag Linux under section Communist/socialist Red Flag as name or title. Hey, a car, fine, but for anyone thinking of the red flag as old-fashioned, having a Linux distribution says "still used for names."
Shenme ( talk) 22:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Seeing its prominence in the article made me suspicious from the start, not in the possible information it pertains to, which may or may not be valid in the way it is presented, but its placement instantly reeks that the edit was made to directly asscociate Socialism with Nazism. I decided to find which editor included it, lo and behold it was made by a user TheRock21 with an aggresive anti-liberal/leftist standpoint and one with a prior warning of making disruptive and misleading edits to pages pertaining to figures involved in politics they don't happen to agree with [ [1]] [ [2]] [ [3]]. If the information must remain then it must be intergrated in an objective and less intentionally antagonistic manner. To be honest I'm rather disgusted that it's remained for this long as it has already proliferated through to dozens upon dozens of copycat Wiki articles across the web with even less standards than Wikipedia's own. As the article stands, I find it hard to integrate this information into the rest of the page without it seeming clumsy, but it can't remain in its present fashion. Would TheRock21 have us believe Hitler's appropriation of the Swastika was due in part to his admiration of the tenents of various Indian religions too? Maybe an Other Uses section mentioned above would be a more appropriate place for this rather in the portions that discuss its use prominent within leftist organisations 92.25.116.136 ( talk) 10:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I've removed this section after reading the actual source. The lack of context severely over simplifies the reasoning behind Hitler's design of the Nazi flag, here is an online version of Mein Kampf if anyone else would like to assess this for themselves. Unfortunately, I'd suggest reading the entire chapter, the used portion appears approximately 3/5ths the way down. [1]. 89.240.190.157 ( talk) 03:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I think the case has been made quite well that the Nazi flag should not be included in the article, as its origins and symbolism is more complex than those generally considered "red flags." However, as it is clearly connected to the topic, in that it was certainly partly inspired by the red flag, could it merit a position in the see also? Regards Aardwolf A380 ( talk) 07:00, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
A gallery of flags "based on the red flag" was added on 8 January 2014 (see page history). I am not entirely convinced that it is a good idea. Red is the most common colour on all flags in general, and trying to distinguish which flags were "based on the red flag" and which ones have a red field for other reasons (including related reasons) seems like it would lead us straight into OR. As long as the gallery contained only obvious communist flags, no one objected (including myself), because those are clearly derived from the original Red Flag. But if we're going to start including non-communist flags, there are so many difficult and controversial cases that it may be better to remove the gallery altogether. Consider, for example, the two Flags of Burma from 1948 to 2010. They featured a prominent red field, and the country declared itself to be socialist for a part of the period when those flags were used. But on the other hand the Red Ensign used by the former British colonial authorities also featured a red field, and Burma did not consider itself socialist when it first adopted a flag with a prominent red field. So... were those two flags of Burma based on the Red Flag, or not? I highly doubt there is any kind of scholarly consensus on this matter, since, typically, every flag is based on a variety of influences and takes inspiration from several other flags.
Therefore, in my opinion, the gallery should be either limited to obvious communist flags, where no controversy exists, or removed altogether. -- Amerul ( talk) 16:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 03:02, 7 June 2022 (UTC)
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What anthem? -- 212.247.27.34 ( talk) 01:40, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
As is suggested below in the air force training exercise section, there are other uses and meanings for the Red Flag besides the universal socialist banner.
However, I don't think references to them belong here, and certainly not in the first line of the article. I think we should move them to the disambiguation page, and if they are large enough to span an article, write so.
An alternative can be creating a section labelled "Other uses of the Red Flag". -- Gatonegro 12:50, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Does the red flag belong to Po (teletubby)? Crazy 29 12:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi all! I was surprised when I came across this article to find that there was no reference to Gaius Marius and the ancient Roman slave revolts.
When I was involved in leftist politics, the story that I had been taught was that the Red Flag became associated with socialism during the Paris commune as this article states. But before that, it had a long history of symbolizing the blood of the oppressed, martyrs or others at the bottom of the social period, that dates all the way back to the Roman Empire.
The relevant section of Gaius' ( /info/en/?search=Gaius_Marius) wikipedia page is the section labelled "Social War". The events this wikipedia page refers to, is when Giaus Marius raised an army of slaves, gladiators, and peasants with the intent of overthrowing the 'dictator' Sulla and restoring Rome to the people. The story as I was taught it, is that the slaves took white sheets, and drenched them in blood to create the red flag, and symbolize the others that had fallen. While Sulla was fighting a distant war, they overthrew Rome, and killed many at the top of the political ladder that were supporters of Sulla in an attempt to form a new political order in the nation's capital. Ultimately, they were beaten in battle by Sulla when he returned.
This is supposedly why the Paris commune chose the red flag at all. Just like the slaves of Gaius Marius, the members of the Paris commune were attempting to capitalize on their nation's involvement in a foreign war. They did so by organizing the underclass into an army, overthrowing the political leadership in their nation's capital, executing the nation's 'corrupt' leadership, and attempting to instate a new political order. They were ultimately defeated when the more traditional french forces arrived back in Paris. That is to say, it is an extremely similar series of events.
The similarity of these events, in turn, is part of why the red flag is looked upon so metaphorically and positively in the socialist community, as it paints a poetic narrative of an underclass that, for thousands of years, whether in Ancient Rome or Paris, has continuously raised the red flag and attempted to take back their nations from the aristocracy throughout history.
I am new to wikipedia, I don't even have an account, but I have found some sources via quick google searching. The book Common Cause google book link here: ( https://books.google.com/books?id=Q_E-AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA103&lpg=PA103&dq=red+flag+ancient+rome+slaves&source=bl&ots=5qAe2N6tD5&sig=ACfU3U2XhMB5c7at5nIGjIvRN4Zzyb-SSg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuoLrq0I7qAhWlhXIEHVAuCM0Q6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=red%20flag%20ancient%20rome%20slavesplebian%20slaves&f=false) is a book from 1912, where the author is discussing how the red flag was flown during the American Revolutionary War (is this also worth putting in the article? I think this would shock most American readers). In the first paragraph on page 103, the author states that he thinks "Old Glory" (the new American Flag) should be the only flag flown in the newly formed United States, because it is untainted by the bloodshed of Gaius Marius' slave rebellion, and the long socialist history of the flag. https://revcom.us/a/045/story-red-flag.html also pops up in google with the same story.
Perhaps we need someone well schooled on ancient Rome to source this claim one way or another? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.108.220.214 ( talk) 20:08, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
I know this is the wrong section but I am new to wikipedia editing so apologies. My query is why is there no mention of its first use stated as in 1831??? Was not the first time the red flag flown anywhere was in 1831 on Hirwaun Common during the Merthyr rising. Its a very overlooked historical event everywhere but Wales unfortunately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.91.100 ( talk) 02:31, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
"The red flag was the emblem of the British Labour Party from its inception to until the Labour Party Conference of 1986 when it was replaced by a red rose. The red rose has subsequently been adopted by a number of other socialist and social-democratic parties throught Europe."
I believe that the British Labour Party borrowed the rose symbol from continental Europe, rather than the other way around. The French Socialist Party, for example, adopted "the fist and the rose" as its emblem in 1969. Does anyone else have dates for other European socialist parties? Picapica 22:49, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I have amended the article to reflect this discussion-- Wickifrank ( talk) 15:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
The song "The Red Flag" remains the anthem of the British Labour Party, should this be noted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.121.151.174 ( talk) 23:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
I have so noted in the article--
Wickifrank (
talk)
15:45, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Red Flag is also an air force training exercise supposedly and apparently simulating each air force member's first ten "missions" or days of war. These first ten are by far the riskiest in anyone's term of war, whether they joined the war at the start or the end. Someone is practically invincible after these first ten days or "missions". While obviously no training can or should perfectly simulate this experience, Red Flag's realism brings it close to the real first ten days or "missions" and is even more difficult and intense than reality. (Difficult and intense in terms of skill, of course. In real combat, one still has to deal with the danger and loss of life.) "Death" replaces death, training failure replaces mission failure, and preparation ensures victory. FET 00:43, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
It would appear he has more than are used for this article to "confirm what (you) say." Any other topic category in wiki would get a banner demanding sources, so why not this one? Hmm?--Buckboard 05:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
In the book The Russian Civil War (1) The Red Army ( ISBN 1-85532-608-6) the author (Mikhail Khvostov) says that the Red Flag was traditionally flown from tall buildings in villages with a plague epidemic. He also suggests that because of this, in the Russian Civil War, White Russian armies steered clear of villages held by the Red Army as they saw the Red Flag and thoght the village was diseased.
Is this any good? Perhaps it could be included in the History section of the article (Russia bit),as a historic use of the Red Flag?
PJB 17:02, 26 February 2006 (UTC) ( Talkin' to me?)
Cheers
PJB 16:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC) ( Talkin' to me?)
This socialist website link mentions the 'Significance of the Red Flag'. Is it useful info to go in the article or as a link? PJ B 21:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
In the history section it's stated that the red flag came to symbolise a less bloodthirsty message beginning in the early 17th century, but the flag hadn't acquired that reputation until the 18th century, thanks to the Buccaneers (who had became especially sadistic by the time piracy was dying out in the early 18th century), and thanks to the Jacobins of 1792-1795. Before them, it was just a battle-flag. Any objections to removing the sentence?
The Paris Commune article says of Lenin:
At his funeral, his body was wrapped in the remains of a red and white flag preserved from the Commune.
But the Red flag article says this:
The red flag subsequently became the banner of the Paris Commune in 1871, at which time it became firmly associated with socialism.
Who is correct? Was the flag of the Paris Commune entirely red? Or was it red and white?
(I posted this question at Talk:Paris Commune but no one volunteered an answer.) — Lawrence King ( talk) 05:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The red flag was *a* flag used by the Commune - before the time of the Commune it red flags had become a revolutionary tradition, due to their uses in 1789, 1830, 1848 (in the February and June revolutions), etc, by groups that leftists could trace a heritage from. So the sentence "The red flag subsequently became the banner of the Paris Commune in 1871, at which time it became firmly associated with socialism." is a bit misleading, because (a) the flag was already associated with the left by this time, and (b) the Commune doesn't slot neatly with one -ism: it was definately a leftist revolution, but there were many different groups working together in it including different branches of socialists, anarchists, the odd Marxist, etc. 86.160.226.192 ( talk) 12:41, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
The photo of Jean Jaurès (or any photo of a historical event) needs a date. -- Isaac R 19:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
What is the origin of the modern methaporical usage of "raising a red flag"? e.g. here, or here or here or here or here or here. The article mentions "In pre-civil war Russia the Red flag was used as a symbol of warning...". Did modern Americans (especially when it comes to résumés and tax returns) really inherit this usage from the Russians? Ewlyahoocom 19:44, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The red flag was written by james connolly, the scots/irish socailist —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.204.35 ( talk) 18:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I very much doubt that the words to the manchester united version of the Red Flag are accurate, primarily because it does not scan - that being the prime concern of football chants.
Any editions? Tomkeene 16:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I think this article needs to have a lot less about piracy. In the early modern period, the red flag was a flag of defiance used by both pirates and non-pirates. People at the time didn't link it to piracy, as the quote I put in from Chambers Cyclopedia shows. We shouldn't get carried away with the Hollywood notion of pirates as a people with a separate culture and traditions. The use of the red flag by Communists and other socialists is derived from its use by the Jacobins during the French Revolution -- there is no allusion to piracy. Kauffner ( talk) 04:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
I have added in a section for motorsport, as the flag one of the official flags in use, which has been used across many forms of motorsport, and has a significant meaning to the race. Harvyk ( talk) 09:24, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
In the opening paragraph, it says that the first citation for a red flag was in 1602, and then in the same paragraph it goes on to say the first citation was in 1777. Which is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.211.103 ( talk) 18:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I included one typical Russian joke about the Red flag, but did not include the second. Here it is:
I like the joke and want to re-add it, but have to agree that, yes, a source should be required on its cultural impact. Pirate Argh!!1! 03:00, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
Why
red flag is singled out for this tacky chapter? Why Russian Folklore is singled out, and not say African folklore? There are plenty of
Russian jokes about
Estonians and Finns, or American presidents, for example, all well sourced. Would you add a chapter in
Estonians or
Bill Clinton on their coverage in Russian anekdotes? The simplest solution for Biophys is to add a chapter on Red flag to
Russian jokes not here. (
Igny (
talk)
00:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC))
The onus is to establish the validity to include. The valid reason to remove is that notability is not established. To varying degrees, all other participants have questioned the notability and you have singularly not established this. Citing the existence of the jokes does not establish their notability to the subject. The subject is not Jokes about the Red Flag in various cultures and even if it was you must demonstrate their notability. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 23:23, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
After being unsuccessful here, Biophys now decided to add the jokes to the
Red Banner article... -
YMB29 (
talk)
22:21, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
A foreigner drives to the USSR on his own car, but the car soon breaks down after falling into a huge hole in the middle of the road. The foreigner is outraged: "How come, you did not place a fence around, or even a warning sign, something red to be seen from the far?" -- Response: "Did not you see the huge Red flag when you crossed our border?".
And of course, "ty ne boisja p'janitsa nosa svoego, on ved' s nashim znamenem tsveta odnogo" (a parody to an official propaganda poetry for children: "Drunk men, do not be ashamed of your nose: it has the same color as our Flag"). No OR; this all per the book. Biophys ( talk) 20:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
Should not whatever decision made here regarding the jokes apply to the Red Banner article also? - YMB29 ( talk) 20:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
I was surprised to see no mention of Red Flag Linux under section Communist/socialist Red Flag as name or title. Hey, a car, fine, but for anyone thinking of the red flag as old-fashioned, having a Linux distribution says "still used for names."
Shenme ( talk) 22:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
Seeing its prominence in the article made me suspicious from the start, not in the possible information it pertains to, which may or may not be valid in the way it is presented, but its placement instantly reeks that the edit was made to directly asscociate Socialism with Nazism. I decided to find which editor included it, lo and behold it was made by a user TheRock21 with an aggresive anti-liberal/leftist standpoint and one with a prior warning of making disruptive and misleading edits to pages pertaining to figures involved in politics they don't happen to agree with [ [1]] [ [2]] [ [3]]. If the information must remain then it must be intergrated in an objective and less intentionally antagonistic manner. To be honest I'm rather disgusted that it's remained for this long as it has already proliferated through to dozens upon dozens of copycat Wiki articles across the web with even less standards than Wikipedia's own. As the article stands, I find it hard to integrate this information into the rest of the page without it seeming clumsy, but it can't remain in its present fashion. Would TheRock21 have us believe Hitler's appropriation of the Swastika was due in part to his admiration of the tenents of various Indian religions too? Maybe an Other Uses section mentioned above would be a more appropriate place for this rather in the portions that discuss its use prominent within leftist organisations 92.25.116.136 ( talk) 10:14, 29 April 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I've removed this section after reading the actual source. The lack of context severely over simplifies the reasoning behind Hitler's design of the Nazi flag, here is an online version of Mein Kampf if anyone else would like to assess this for themselves. Unfortunately, I'd suggest reading the entire chapter, the used portion appears approximately 3/5ths the way down. [1]. 89.240.190.157 ( talk) 03:42, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
I think the case has been made quite well that the Nazi flag should not be included in the article, as its origins and symbolism is more complex than those generally considered "red flags." However, as it is clearly connected to the topic, in that it was certainly partly inspired by the red flag, could it merit a position in the see also? Regards Aardwolf A380 ( talk) 07:00, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
A gallery of flags "based on the red flag" was added on 8 January 2014 (see page history). I am not entirely convinced that it is a good idea. Red is the most common colour on all flags in general, and trying to distinguish which flags were "based on the red flag" and which ones have a red field for other reasons (including related reasons) seems like it would lead us straight into OR. As long as the gallery contained only obvious communist flags, no one objected (including myself), because those are clearly derived from the original Red Flag. But if we're going to start including non-communist flags, there are so many difficult and controversial cases that it may be better to remove the gallery altogether. Consider, for example, the two Flags of Burma from 1948 to 2010. They featured a prominent red field, and the country declared itself to be socialist for a part of the period when those flags were used. But on the other hand the Red Ensign used by the former British colonial authorities also featured a red field, and Burma did not consider itself socialist when it first adopted a flag with a prominent red field. So... were those two flags of Burma based on the Red Flag, or not? I highly doubt there is any kind of scholarly consensus on this matter, since, typically, every flag is based on a variety of influences and takes inspiration from several other flags.
Therefore, in my opinion, the gallery should be either limited to obvious communist flags, where no controversy exists, or removed altogether. -- Amerul ( talk) 16:38, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
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