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There's a link to "Shou" on here that redirects to "Sho", which is an article on japanese musical instruments. Maybe i'm missing something, but that can't possibly be right. Archtemplar 03:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)Archtemplar
Reply: The "shou" is also "Tibetan Red Deer", a subspecies (Cervus Elaphus Affinis or Cervus Elaphus Wallichi) that was almost extinct...but has been rediscovered in Bhutan. user: dlc_73 21 June, 2006
This article is a bit of a mess. It starts of ok, but then carries on as the original article about the North American Wapiti (sometimes still calling it Elk), as though the European Red Deer did not exist. Billlion 03:40, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I concur. This is a total mess. Even the beginning is off, I think. "Wapiti" or "Elk" is not the American name for the red deer - it is the name of an American subspecies of the red deer. That's not the same thing. john k 15:41, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The North American animal is variously referred to as both the "elk" and the "wapiti" in this article. We need to adopt a standard for the N. American subspecies, and stick with it. "Elk" is definitely more widely used by the general public, but on the other hand, "wapiti" avoids confusion with the moose (which is called "elk" in Europe). What do you think? Funnyhat 04:49, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
We need to make it clear to the reader what is going on. Firstly, is the european red deer exactly the same as the N american elk? Sam Spade 08:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I think it may be best to separate the articles into Red Deer and something like Elk (North American) or Wapati. Although they are the same species so much of the article, culture history etc is different, and it would make for clearer articles. By the way, I wonder why the article settled on Elk rather than Wapati, I thought Elk was regarded in the US as a popular misnomer now, and well-informed peopel called them wapati. Can a US expert please clarify? Billlion 07:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
What is this rubbish about lions and tigers being the same species. Male Ligers and Tigons are sterile. What a load of guff! Billlion 07:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
66.167.253.84 20:27, 20 September 2005 (UTC): I organized the article into major sections for the two continents. It was too hard to read with all the "also known as" blather, so I arbitrarily chose elk over wapiti for the North American section, leaving wapiti in a couple of key introductory places. Feel free to do the opposite if a majority prefers. As of this edit there is still much more information on the North American subspecies, but that now reflects simply what's been contributed rather than the inherent organization of the article. Editors are encouraged to extract out any common bits within the North American section and promoting them into a new shared section prefacing or following the per-continent sections.
For now I will provide a link to recent research on the species for those interested to review. It is the only scientific paper on the subject I have read so I will not take the liberty to change the list of subspecies in accordance with this small piece of the puzzle which might or might not be widely accepted.
20:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.149.117.249 ( talk • contribs) 13:07, 6 November 2005
Hi folks, Yesterday I grouped together all of the subspecies information and moved it down below the fold. I also removed unnecessary articles from the subheadings so that "in Europe" instead read "Europe". I edited the disease section for factual content. I made these changes without discussion. OK, someone liked the previous version and reverted; so be it. I lack the time to play competing edits.
I did however reedit the disease section. To say that 'Chronic wasting' disease is also known as 'mad cow' disease is misleading. I refer readers to the excellent page on prions to clarify this. Choose whatever format you like but let's have the factual content as correct as possible.
No apology needed; sorry if I seemed cranky, it was pre-caffeine, and I was; again I am sorry. I have also learned that it is customary to make a note explaining the reasoning behind editing; sounds reasonable and I will do that in future. I'm not especially new to Wikipedia, but I am not here often enough to be 'steeped' in the culture. We all learn:) I also remembered my password today dmccabe!
Kudos to User:Billlion, the article reads pretty nicely! I'm adding a Clean template here as the soundclip is some format that needs to be recast into some widely distributed standard (say, a WAV file) rather than whatever an OOG file is (Scientific???). Never heard of it as an Electrical Engineer, and certainly doesn't play under standard PC software. {Cleanup|date=March 2006}
I have moved this page to "Red Deer (animal)" so that a query for "Red Dee" links to a disambiguation page. There are other significant articles with the same name. The city of Red Deer is a fairly major city in Alberta, Canada and I don't know if it is appropriate to assume that most people searching Red Deer are interested in the animal in this case. -- Arch26 19:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
This page could do with a mention of embryonic diapause as red deer are one of the main examples of this biological phenomena.... do you think it should be put in the rutting section??12:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Red Deer (animal) → Red deer (or Red Deer) – move of 3 May and creation of disambig has left many, many articles about the animal pointing to the disambig instead (copied from the entry on the WP:RM page) GraemeLeggett 15:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
As an interim solution I've made Red deer redirect here. The disambiguation page is still linked from the top of this article. Blisco 15:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
With 100% support, move done - MPF 19:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Reply: The grouping of American elk and West European red deer refers to a vast number of subspecies that were originally classified as distinct...but science and mtDNA shows that many of these could be lumped into the American elk (in North America/Asia) and West European red deer of Central/Western Europe.
Reply: Dr. Valerius Geist has great books concerning red deer and wapiti, perhaps many of you should consider his books.
I did not know this! I wish I could have know that before. -- [[User:Mitternacht90|Mitternacht90]] 02:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Should I add humans to the list of predators? Humans have been hunting deer since ancient times and maybe even before recorded history. I will add it if no-one objects in 24 hours. -- JesseG88 22:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have an extensive section on elk in one of my books, which has input from Valerius Giest, and my own research. If you want me to add it here I will do so, provided there is a copyright notice and citation stating it is from the book. If this appears to be okay, someone contact me. TRMichels@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.106.19.217 ( talk • contribs) 13:03, 1 October 2006.
This article needs a lot of cleanup, and I'll be working on it as I have tiime, and hope others will too. Please don't remove the cleanup tag until it's cleaned up. The intro is one sentence, the article doesn't cite references well, the information is off a bit...there are too many images...you name it.-- MONGO 20:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Article is looking good. Though, I noticed a problem with the gallery tag, making all the references and everything after the gallery disappear. This is reported as a bug in Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Gallery_tag_messes_up_references, so I tried moving the images into the article and removing the gallery. Please rearrange the images as necessary. Hopefully the bug will be fixed soon. -- Aude ( talk) 15:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm still confused. Growing up in America, I always heard this animal referred to as an elk. This includes at zoos and national parks. The first time I ever heard it referred to as a red deer is when I typed Elk into the wiki search. Has anything been decided in this discussion, because I can't find it. I would definitely support a move to "Elk" though.-- Billywhack 12:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay...lets' see how we can proceed here.
Any other thoughts are welcome.-- MONGO 08:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Generally I favour one species, one article, but not dogmatically so; where there is an abundance of information, a species page can reasonably be broken up into several pages, one for each subspecies (as has been done for e.g. Lion and Tiger). Cervus elaphus would appear to be a good case for such treatment.
I'd suggest Red Deer should remain the summary page for the species (including a full subspecies list, which it doesn't have yet!!), and also the detailed page for the nominate subspecies C. e. elaphus.
The difficult one is the page title for the C. e. canadensis page, because of the common name problem; both Elk and Elk (animal) can refer as much (and primarily, on historical precedent) to Alces alces as to C. e. canadensis. Wapiti might be the best title, or maybe Elk (Cervus elaphus canadensis)? Maybe Moose should also be split by subspecies, into Moose (A. a. americanus) and Elk (Alces alces) (A. a. alces).
As an aside, the current Red Deer page has mixed British and American spellings; this should be copyedited to British spellings on restricting the page to C. e. elaphus, and the C. e. canadensis page copyedited to US (or Canadian) spellings, as per the WP:MOS area relevance guidelines. - MPF 01:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I posted the following above. Perhaps it is better placed here: I live in an area of the United States where elk are common and are much hunted. I am a hunter and have read a great deal on the biology of these animals. I have never heard the word Wapiti spoken. In countless conversations with hunters and conservation groups in the United States I have never heard the word used. I have read it in articles (usually throwing in a native word for the animal as an aside), but it is simply not used here.-- Counsel 21:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I am strongly in favor of the division of the article into two: one for the American Elk and one for the Red Deer. The term Red Deer is not used in the United States for this animal. Virtually any American seeking to use wikipedia will not be well served with only the article on Red Deer. It seems analogous to putting information on the New York subway system under the heading "Tube". No one in the US is likely to find it or be satisfied if they do (the subspecies here is not even red). I would think that a small summary article under the scientific name with a link to the regionally focused articles would serve well.-- Counsel 22:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The red deer of Europe and the elk are indeed two different species, a rather recent clarification based on a re-evaluation of the genetic record.
This is Dr. Geist's appended draft. It's in a conference proceedings, but will be much upgraded for publication in a journal. According to Dr. Geist, you will get the gist of it.
Geist, V.
Sept 3rd 2006 Draft
Taxonomic classification by adaptation versus descent: mitochondrial DNA analysis of cervid phylogeny and a resolution of the taxonomy of “red deer”.
Do “red deer” comprise one species, Cervus elaphuss Linnaeus 1758, or must the North American wapiti and the Siberian maral be placed into a separate species Cervus canadensis, Erxleben 17777? The failure to resolve the long-standing uncertainties in the classification of “red deer”, placed by current consensus into one species, Cervus elaphus Linnaeus 1758, can be traced to a general failure in defining rigorous criteria of taxonomic classification, a lack of relevant data and too uncritical a conception of the “biological species” definition. This is exemplified in the most recent and detailed study of the problem by Bart O’Gara (2002), although the uncertainties in the taxonomy of this group of deer have a very long history (Geist 1998). The consensus of including all red deer in one species, Cervus elaphus was bases on the assumption that red deer from Europe to North America formed a continuous circumpolar cline of populations, and thus related east to west by degree, and on the hybridization in New Zealand of its most extreme members, the European red deer and the American wapiti. To be meaningful the “biological species concepts” can only be applied to two forms meeting under natural conditions, which include their predators. This condition is not fulfilled in New Zealand, as the test of genetic compatibility is the ability of hybrids to survive predation as well as the parent forms. In the absence of predation, when under human care, hybrids with incompetent anti-predator adaptations can survive, as exemplified most strikingly by hybrids of mule deer and white-tailed deer (Lingle).
However, the problems of determining valid taxonomic criteria, as well as the actual classification of the “red deer” group of deer can now be both resolved thanks to detailed information on molecular genetics. The most important paper here is by Ludt et al. (2004) and Ludt and Kuehn (this volume), which generated of a phylogeny model based on the mitochondrial cytochrome b gene of 37 cervid populations. While there are other papers dealing with molecular phylogeny of cervids , the analysis by Christian Ludt and collegues is most significant because of the criteria used to select subspecies of red deer. The taxonomic identity is precise and based on a rigorous and uncompromising application of differences in the nuptial coat and antler patterns of old breeding males only, with all specimen coming from free-living populations with precisely identified geographic locations. The determinations and collections were done by Christian Oswald of the Christian Oswald Cervid Museum in Ebersberg, Germany. The criteria of classification for red deer subspecies are the same as in Geist (1998). The data used by Ludt and colleagues is thus not contaminated by samples form zoo or farmed specimen, or from old museum specimen of uncertain affinity.
The first significant finding of Ludt et al is the close parallel between differences in coat patterns and genetic distances. Specimen close in coat and antler characteristics were also close genetically, and vice versa. This verifies that differences in nuptial coat patterns are a valid taxonomic criterion. This is the first demonstration of this relationship, which gives hope that other mammalian species breaking up into externally well-differentiated populations can also be validly classified by the same criteria. Although I here emphasize nuptial coat pattern and markings, these go hand in hand with differences in the rutting vocalizations of males, while differences in the smell of urine soaked rutting males to the human nose suggest an olfactory social segregation as well. This requires investigation.
The taxonomic problems with red deer however, do not reside at the subspecies, but at the species and higher taxonomic levels. Currently, the consensus is to place all subspecies of red deer into one species, Cervus elaphus Linnaeus 1758. The alternative long-standing proposal was to segregate wapiti from European red deer into a separate species, Cervus canadensis Erxleben 1777. This places one into a conundrum where to place the diverse Asiatic subspecies, that is, where to draw the boundaries between C. elaphus and C. canadensis. Moreover, if one applies the species classification as practiced by biologists interested in caprids, that is, by clustering closely related subspecies into species, then there are three species of red deer, the European red deer, the central Asian mountain and riparian-adapted red deer, and the advanced maral/wapiti red deer of Asia and North America. In this classification the species is merely a collection category without biologically meaningful criteria. This is compounded by attempts at taxonomic classification by students of molecular genetics. Clearly, a biologically meaningful sorting out of species is required. Such a solution is at hand. To illustrate it on the example of “red deer”, not only the data from molecular genetics is required, but also an understanding of Pleistocene history and evolution and cervid ecology. Only then can one recognize what happens when one classifies by decent (molecular data) as opposed to adaptations (ecological roles).
The data by Ludt et al (2004) shows that probably well before the Pleistocene, the gene pool of primitive red deer progenitors split into a western and an eastern segment. The western segment retained its identity, and, because of it gave rise to one form and one form only, the classical European/Asia Minor red deer. This gene pool must have been mixed with every one of the 18 plus glacial advances during the Pleistocene. Today this form has relatively weakly differentiated subspecies, but an exceedingly long history of independent evolution. Consequently, subspecies must be all of recent origin, which is supported by the data of Ludt et al. 2004. The body shape of this form is that of a saltatorial/cursorial runner with exceedingly great adaptability to all sort of landscapes. This is a generalist species in contrast to the specialist speciation that took place in the eastern gene pool (see below). There is no difficulty naming the European red deer a species, based on the adaptive syndrome of a slatatorial/cursorial form and applying to it the old species designation Cervus elaphys L. 1758. This comes into clear focus when looking at he fate of the eastern gene pool, for it had a very different fate.
The eastern gene pool was not cohesive, but split deeply into four distinct and more specialized “body forms”:
1. The primitive original parent form, the sika deer, a classical saltatorial runner, with a four- pronged antler plan, a long tail and an erectable, long-haired rump patch. This form occupies moderately cool, temperate climates with short winters and low snow-levels. This form is classified as a different subgenus and species from European red deer, namely Cervus [Sika] sika (even though in the absence of predation these two species may hybridize and produce a hybrid flock with incompetent anti-predator adaptations). Note, this is a segregation at the subgenus, let alone species levels!
2. The advanced, large-bodied, specialized saltors, adapted to steep and high mountains whose slopes are also covered with willow and rhododendron shrubs, requiring extraordinary ability at jumping, and ascending steep hills. This requires a specialized saltatorial morphology, with large, well-muscled haunches. These deer have a five-pronged antler in that a very large bez tine has been added to the sika’s four-pronged antler plan. The tail and rump patch are totally different from the sika conditions. This body form is found in cold climates, with long winters. Examples are the Macneill’s stag, the Kasmir stag and the shou. A branch of this body form is found in lowland deserts in the dense riparian vegetation which follows desert rivers. These are the Buchara and Lop-Nor subspecies.
3. The very large deer with highly evolved cursorial body form and six-pronged antlers architecture. Again all these deer are different in rump patch and social characteristics from the preceding and succeeding deer. These are the maral/wapiti subspecies of central Asia and North America. These are cold adapted mixed feeders with a pronounced tendency to graze. They reach beyond the Arctic Circle. Their body plan evolved in response to life in open landscapes. The most highly evolved subspecies here is the Siberian and North American wapit, adapted as fast runners on open plains. Their body plan is cursorial and second only to the reindeer or caribou. Both were bested as advanced runners only by the Irish elk (Megalocers, see Geist 1998).
4. The specializes cursor/climber with highly advanced antler plan, but missing the bez tine, adapted to the highest of mountains and found on the highest alpine meadows and hills, but is capable of rapid climbing in cliffs as well. This form is the white-lipped deer (Cervus [Przewalskium] albirostris). This form is also so specialized and different from the others, that is segregated at the sub-generic level.
Please note that the eastern gene pool segregated into four distinct, specialized body forms while the western gene-pool evolved a fifth, but generalized body shape, namely that of the saltatorial/cursorial runner (Geist 1998). Each of the five body plans reveals a somewhat different approach to escaping the pursuit of predators, with the saltatorial being the most primitive and the cursorial the most advanced. That is, when we classify by body plan we classify by adaptation, which is the only way in which we can classify taxonomically. Note, this not a classification by descent, but independent of it! The differences in body plans reflect firstly differences in anti-predator adaptations. That is, red deer species are segregated primarily by anti-predator adaptations – as are all deer species. This reinforces the hypothesis that predation segregated deer ecologically and taxonomically as I pointed out as general rule for cervids in Geist (1998). Each species is also marked socially in a distinctive manner. Each species is thus an adaptive syndrome. Moreover, each of these adaptive syndromes (body plans) breaks up into a number of subspecies. A cluster of subspecies thus represents the same adaptations, and each adaptive syndrome is different from other clusters. We can therefore recognize as a species each cluster of subspecies with the same basic adaptations. The so-called Far Eastern red deer, are thus similar to European red deer only via convergence, which is, admittedly, a very powerful evolutionary process (Geist 1978). The red deer species as currently agreed to, Cervus elaphus ,is thus not monophyletic, but polyphyletic. Consequently, it is no species at all. We can thus label each distinct body form a species with its attending subspecies. We have consequently:
1. Cervus elaphus in Asia Minor and Europe, (saltatorial/cursorial, generalist)
2. Cervus affinis in the eastern Himalayas, eastern Tibet and western China, (saltatorial, advanced, specialist)
3. Cervus canadensis in central Asia and North America (cursorial, specialist)
4. Cervus albirostris as the high elevation specialist. (cursorial/climbing, specialist)
5. Cervus sika from temperate zoned China (slatatorial primitive)
This classification fits the evolutionary species concept as practiced by the IUCN Caprid specialist group. . The caprid biologists were right: each sheep species is an “adaptive syndrome”! Note that the species adaptive syndromes which arose from the eastern gene pool are more specialized and distant from one another, than either is from the generalist adaptive syndrome of the European red deer, despite being more closely related via mtDNA.
The molecular data also shows why Cervus canadensis is closer related to Cervus sika, than to Cervus elaphus, a previously puzzling finding which was dicussed by Harrington (1985).
The eastern gene pool was thus able to retain the primitive parental form, the sika deer, probably because on the Asiatic mainland sika deer could move southward with each glaciation, following milder climates and moist forested landscapes, while evading long, cold winters, deep snow and open landscapes. This opportunity to withdraw geographically to suitable forests was denied to members of the western gene pool, due to extensive desert formation about the Mediterranean basin with each major glacial advance. They survived probably as relict populations in the mountains of Asia Minor, from which they radiated into Europe with each interglacial.
The eastern gene-pool gave rise early to a form, highly evolved in body shape, antlers and social characteristics, which occupied the highest of mountain plateaus, the white-lipped deer. Central Asia is characterized by huge areas of high mountain elevations and such are retained during interglacials. Consequently, a high mountain specialist, the white-lipped deer, could maintain itself through out the Pleistocene. These extended high-elevation plateaus are not found in Europe or Asia Minor. The huge area of mountains and their high elevations insure that during glacial cycles the same habitat survives during glacials and interglacials.
Because high mountain plateaus are surrounded by large, steep slopes well vegetated with tall shrubs in the sub-alpine levels, the Himalayan/Tibetan deer (Cervus affinis) split sharply form all other groups as they specialized in dealing effectively with the vagaries of steep, long, shrubbery-covered slopes. Their body form differs consequently from both the cursorial body form of the plains runners, and the saltaorial/cursorial body form of European red deer. Again the huge area of mountains and their high elevation insure for habitat continuity during glacial cycles.
The same goes for the wide-open plains to which the cursorial Asian/North America forms (Cervus canadensis) have adapted. They have well developed appendages and bodies specialized for fast running over short grasses and feature the largest antlers, an adaptation to the open plains in the service of neonatal survival (see Geist 1998, 1991, 1986). Judging from Chinese fossils, these deer are quite old.
The body forms and adaptive syndromes of the wapiti/maral species and that of the Tibetan and riparian “jumping deer” species are more divergent, than are either from the European red deer. Each of these species is characterized not only by distinct antler form, but also by highly distinct rump patches, double patch with long tail in European red deer, small white rump patch in jumping deer, large single patch in wapiti/maral species, both with a short tail. The antler plan in the Tibetan deer is five-rponged, in the wapiti, maral group six pronged, and in the European red deer, five pronged with enhanced terminal branching.
The “red deer” in the consensus species Cervus elaphus thus represent a polyphyletic group, which can be split into three good species. Parallel and converging evolution from the same gene pool resulted in considerable similarity between the European reed deer, the Tibetan and desert deer and the maral/wapiti group. There was some meeting of eastern and western species as shown by the mitochondrial DNA of the western-most subspecies of Tibetan deer, the Kashmir stag. It clusters with the Buchara and Lop Nor deer.
References
Geist, V. 1978. Life Strategies, Human Evolution, Environmental Design. Springer Verlag, New York.
Geist, v. 1986. The paradox of the great Irish stags. Natural History 94(3) 54-64.
Geist, V. 1991. Bones of contention revisited: did antlers enlarge with sexual selection sd a consequence of neonatal security strategies? Applied Animal Behaviour Science 29: 453-469.
Geist, V. 1998. Deer of the World. Stackpole Books, Mechanicsburg, Pa.
Harrington, R. Evolution and distribution of the Cervidae pp. 3-11 P. F. Fentress and K. R. Drew (eds). Biology of Deer Production. The royal Society of new Zealand, Bulletin 22, Wellington.
Ludt, C. J., Schroeder, W., Rottmann, O., Kuehn, R. (2004) Mitochondrial DNA phylogeny of red deer (Cervus elaphus). Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 31 (3) 1064-1083.
.-- dlc_73 21:21, 30 October 2006
Good job...now we have figure out what of the above can be added to the soon to be split articles...is this simply his thoughts or is it going to be part of a published paper. If it is going to be published, then we have to ensure each passage is referenced to the source and quoted or reworded to avoid a copyviolation. Obviously, there is an official" upcoming announcement that the Red Deer species are to be divided into several species and this is agreed by those in the scientific community? Regardless, with Dr. Geist and the DNA study mentioned in the article, that is all the proof we need that we are dealing with two to three species and that each one can have their own article. We also need ot make it clear of the similarities of each species in each article and dicuss the history of the identification of these types.--
MONGO
05:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Dr Geist is a professor at University of Calgary and can be contacted. I do have the actual message he sent to me along with the attached article, and have pretty much echoed his sentiments. Unfortunately, I don't know what publication this article will be in...but I believe it is upcoming, and that all enthusiasts should be on the lookout for it.
Please note/be advised that the following deer have already long been classified as separate species:
4. Thorold's Deer, or White-Lipped Deer (Cervus (Przewalskium) Albirostris) (see Thorold's Deer for more information)
5. Sika Deer (a.k.a. Cervus sika) (Cervus (Sika) Nippon) (see Sika Deer for more information)
I believe Dr. Geist included them, because these two species are closely related, genetically, to the Red Deer and Wapiti.
.-- dlc_73 22:50, 30 October 2006
The articles on Ursus arctos are instructive. The Grizzly and the Brown Bear (and the Kodiak for that matter) all have different articles even though they are one species.-- Counsel 22:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There's a link to "Shou" on here that redirects to "Sho", which is an article on japanese musical instruments. Maybe i'm missing something, but that can't possibly be right. Archtemplar 03:15, 15 December 2005 (UTC)Archtemplar
Reply: The "shou" is also "Tibetan Red Deer", a subspecies (Cervus Elaphus Affinis or Cervus Elaphus Wallichi) that was almost extinct...but has been rediscovered in Bhutan. user: dlc_73 21 June, 2006
This article is a bit of a mess. It starts of ok, but then carries on as the original article about the North American Wapiti (sometimes still calling it Elk), as though the European Red Deer did not exist. Billlion 03:40, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I concur. This is a total mess. Even the beginning is off, I think. "Wapiti" or "Elk" is not the American name for the red deer - it is the name of an American subspecies of the red deer. That's not the same thing. john k 15:41, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The North American animal is variously referred to as both the "elk" and the "wapiti" in this article. We need to adopt a standard for the N. American subspecies, and stick with it. "Elk" is definitely more widely used by the general public, but on the other hand, "wapiti" avoids confusion with the moose (which is called "elk" in Europe). What do you think? Funnyhat 04:49, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
We need to make it clear to the reader what is going on. Firstly, is the european red deer exactly the same as the N american elk? Sam Spade 08:53, 23 May 2005 (UTC)
I think it may be best to separate the articles into Red Deer and something like Elk (North American) or Wapati. Although they are the same species so much of the article, culture history etc is different, and it would make for clearer articles. By the way, I wonder why the article settled on Elk rather than Wapati, I thought Elk was regarded in the US as a popular misnomer now, and well-informed peopel called them wapati. Can a US expert please clarify? Billlion 07:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
What is this rubbish about lions and tigers being the same species. Male Ligers and Tigons are sterile. What a load of guff! Billlion 07:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
66.167.253.84 20:27, 20 September 2005 (UTC): I organized the article into major sections for the two continents. It was too hard to read with all the "also known as" blather, so I arbitrarily chose elk over wapiti for the North American section, leaving wapiti in a couple of key introductory places. Feel free to do the opposite if a majority prefers. As of this edit there is still much more information on the North American subspecies, but that now reflects simply what's been contributed rather than the inherent organization of the article. Editors are encouraged to extract out any common bits within the North American section and promoting them into a new shared section prefacing or following the per-continent sections.
For now I will provide a link to recent research on the species for those interested to review. It is the only scientific paper on the subject I have read so I will not take the liberty to change the list of subspecies in accordance with this small piece of the puzzle which might or might not be widely accepted.
20:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.149.117.249 ( talk • contribs) 13:07, 6 November 2005
Hi folks, Yesterday I grouped together all of the subspecies information and moved it down below the fold. I also removed unnecessary articles from the subheadings so that "in Europe" instead read "Europe". I edited the disease section for factual content. I made these changes without discussion. OK, someone liked the previous version and reverted; so be it. I lack the time to play competing edits.
I did however reedit the disease section. To say that 'Chronic wasting' disease is also known as 'mad cow' disease is misleading. I refer readers to the excellent page on prions to clarify this. Choose whatever format you like but let's have the factual content as correct as possible.
No apology needed; sorry if I seemed cranky, it was pre-caffeine, and I was; again I am sorry. I have also learned that it is customary to make a note explaining the reasoning behind editing; sounds reasonable and I will do that in future. I'm not especially new to Wikipedia, but I am not here often enough to be 'steeped' in the culture. We all learn:) I also remembered my password today dmccabe!
Kudos to User:Billlion, the article reads pretty nicely! I'm adding a Clean template here as the soundclip is some format that needs to be recast into some widely distributed standard (say, a WAV file) rather than whatever an OOG file is (Scientific???). Never heard of it as an Electrical Engineer, and certainly doesn't play under standard PC software. {Cleanup|date=March 2006}
I have moved this page to "Red Deer (animal)" so that a query for "Red Dee" links to a disambiguation page. There are other significant articles with the same name. The city of Red Deer is a fairly major city in Alberta, Canada and I don't know if it is appropriate to assume that most people searching Red Deer are interested in the animal in this case. -- Arch26 19:24, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
This page could do with a mention of embryonic diapause as red deer are one of the main examples of this biological phenomena.... do you think it should be put in the rutting section??12:38, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
Red Deer (animal) → Red deer (or Red Deer) – move of 3 May and creation of disambig has left many, many articles about the animal pointing to the disambig instead (copied from the entry on the WP:RM page) GraemeLeggett 15:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
As an interim solution I've made Red deer redirect here. The disambiguation page is still linked from the top of this article. Blisco 15:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
With 100% support, move done - MPF 19:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Reply: The grouping of American elk and West European red deer refers to a vast number of subspecies that were originally classified as distinct...but science and mtDNA shows that many of these could be lumped into the American elk (in North America/Asia) and West European red deer of Central/Western Europe.
Reply: Dr. Valerius Geist has great books concerning red deer and wapiti, perhaps many of you should consider his books.
I did not know this! I wish I could have know that before. -- [[User:Mitternacht90|Mitternacht90]] 02:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Should I add humans to the list of predators? Humans have been hunting deer since ancient times and maybe even before recorded history. I will add it if no-one objects in 24 hours. -- JesseG88 22:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I have an extensive section on elk in one of my books, which has input from Valerius Giest, and my own research. If you want me to add it here I will do so, provided there is a copyright notice and citation stating it is from the book. If this appears to be okay, someone contact me. TRMichels@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.106.19.217 ( talk • contribs) 13:03, 1 October 2006.
This article needs a lot of cleanup, and I'll be working on it as I have tiime, and hope others will too. Please don't remove the cleanup tag until it's cleaned up. The intro is one sentence, the article doesn't cite references well, the information is off a bit...there are too many images...you name it.-- MONGO 20:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Article is looking good. Though, I noticed a problem with the gallery tag, making all the references and everything after the gallery disappear. This is reported as a bug in Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Gallery_tag_messes_up_references, so I tried moving the images into the article and removing the gallery. Please rearrange the images as necessary. Hopefully the bug will be fixed soon. -- Aude ( talk) 15:39, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm still confused. Growing up in America, I always heard this animal referred to as an elk. This includes at zoos and national parks. The first time I ever heard it referred to as a red deer is when I typed Elk into the wiki search. Has anything been decided in this discussion, because I can't find it. I would definitely support a move to "Elk" though.-- Billywhack 12:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay...lets' see how we can proceed here.
Any other thoughts are welcome.-- MONGO 08:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Generally I favour one species, one article, but not dogmatically so; where there is an abundance of information, a species page can reasonably be broken up into several pages, one for each subspecies (as has been done for e.g. Lion and Tiger). Cervus elaphus would appear to be a good case for such treatment.
I'd suggest Red Deer should remain the summary page for the species (including a full subspecies list, which it doesn't have yet!!), and also the detailed page for the nominate subspecies C. e. elaphus.
The difficult one is the page title for the C. e. canadensis page, because of the common name problem; both Elk and Elk (animal) can refer as much (and primarily, on historical precedent) to Alces alces as to C. e. canadensis. Wapiti might be the best title, or maybe Elk (Cervus elaphus canadensis)? Maybe Moose should also be split by subspecies, into Moose (A. a. americanus) and Elk (Alces alces) (A. a. alces).
As an aside, the current Red Deer page has mixed British and American spellings; this should be copyedited to British spellings on restricting the page to C. e. elaphus, and the C. e. canadensis page copyedited to US (or Canadian) spellings, as per the WP:MOS area relevance guidelines. - MPF 01:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I posted the following above. Perhaps it is better placed here: I live in an area of the United States where elk are common and are much hunted. I am a hunter and have read a great deal on the biology of these animals. I have never heard the word Wapiti spoken. In countless conversations with hunters and conservation groups in the United States I have never heard the word used. I have read it in articles (usually throwing in a native word for the animal as an aside), but it is simply not used here.-- Counsel 21:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I am strongly in favor of the division of the article into two: one for the American Elk and one for the Red Deer. The term Red Deer is not used in the United States for this animal. Virtually any American seeking to use wikipedia will not be well served with only the article on Red Deer. It seems analogous to putting information on the New York subway system under the heading "Tube". No one in the US is likely to find it or be satisfied if they do (the subspecies here is not even red). I would think that a small summary article under the scientific name with a link to the regionally focused articles would serve well.-- Counsel 22:10, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The red deer of Europe and the elk are indeed two different species, a rather recent clarification based on a re-evaluation of the genetic record.
This is Dr. Geist's appended draft. It's in a conference proceedings, but will be much upgraded for publication in a journal. According to Dr. Geist, you will get the gist of it.
Geist, V.
Sept 3rd 2006 Draft
Taxonomic classification by adaptation versus descent: mitochondrial DNA analysis of cervid phylogeny and a resolution of the taxonomy of “red deer”.
Do “red deer” comprise one species, Cervus elaphuss Linnaeus 1758, or must the North American wapiti and the Siberian maral be placed into a separate species Cervus canadensis, Erxleben 17777? The failure to resolve the long-standing uncertainties in the classification of “red deer”, placed by current consensus into one species, Cervus elaphus Linnaeus 1758, can be traced to a general failure in defining rigorous criteria of taxonomic classification, a lack of relevant data and too uncritical a conception of the “biological species” definition. This is exemplified in the most recent and detailed study of the problem by Bart O’Gara (2002), although the uncertainties in the taxonomy of this group of deer have a very long history (Geist 1998). The consensus of including all red deer in one species, Cervus elaphus was bases on the assumption that red deer from Europe to North America formed a continuous circumpolar cline of populations, and thus related east to west by degree, and on the hybridization in New Zealand of its most extreme members, the European red deer and the American wapiti. To be meaningful the “biological species concepts” can only be applied to two forms meeting under natural conditions, which include their predators. This condition is not fulfilled in New Zealand, as the test of genetic compatibility is the ability of hybrids to survive predation as well as the parent forms. In the absence of predation, when under human care, hybrids with incompetent anti-predator adaptations can survive, as exemplified most strikingly by hybrids of mule deer and white-tailed deer (Lingle).
However, the problems of determining valid taxonomic criteria, as well as the actual classification of the “red deer” group of deer can now be both resolved thanks to detailed information on molecular genetics. The most important paper here is by Ludt et al. (2004) and Ludt and Kuehn (this volume), which generated of a phylogeny model based on the mitochondrial cytochrome b gene of 37 cervid populations. While there are other papers dealing with molecular phylogeny of cervids , the analysis by Christian Ludt and collegues is most significant because of the criteria used to select subspecies of red deer. The taxonomic identity is precise and based on a rigorous and uncompromising application of differences in the nuptial coat and antler patterns of old breeding males only, with all specimen coming from free-living populations with precisely identified geographic locations. The determinations and collections were done by Christian Oswald of the Christian Oswald Cervid Museum in Ebersberg, Germany. The criteria of classification for red deer subspecies are the same as in Geist (1998). The data used by Ludt and colleagues is thus not contaminated by samples form zoo or farmed specimen, or from old museum specimen of uncertain affinity.
The first significant finding of Ludt et al is the close parallel between differences in coat patterns and genetic distances. Specimen close in coat and antler characteristics were also close genetically, and vice versa. This verifies that differences in nuptial coat patterns are a valid taxonomic criterion. This is the first demonstration of this relationship, which gives hope that other mammalian species breaking up into externally well-differentiated populations can also be validly classified by the same criteria. Although I here emphasize nuptial coat pattern and markings, these go hand in hand with differences in the rutting vocalizations of males, while differences in the smell of urine soaked rutting males to the human nose suggest an olfactory social segregation as well. This requires investigation.
The taxonomic problems with red deer however, do not reside at the subspecies, but at the species and higher taxonomic levels. Currently, the consensus is to place all subspecies of red deer into one species, Cervus elaphus Linnaeus 1758. The alternative long-standing proposal was to segregate wapiti from European red deer into a separate species, Cervus canadensis Erxleben 1777. This places one into a conundrum where to place the diverse Asiatic subspecies, that is, where to draw the boundaries between C. elaphus and C. canadensis. Moreover, if one applies the species classification as practiced by biologists interested in caprids, that is, by clustering closely related subspecies into species, then there are three species of red deer, the European red deer, the central Asian mountain and riparian-adapted red deer, and the advanced maral/wapiti red deer of Asia and North America. In this classification the species is merely a collection category without biologically meaningful criteria. This is compounded by attempts at taxonomic classification by students of molecular genetics. Clearly, a biologically meaningful sorting out of species is required. Such a solution is at hand. To illustrate it on the example of “red deer”, not only the data from molecular genetics is required, but also an understanding of Pleistocene history and evolution and cervid ecology. Only then can one recognize what happens when one classifies by decent (molecular data) as opposed to adaptations (ecological roles).
The data by Ludt et al (2004) shows that probably well before the Pleistocene, the gene pool of primitive red deer progenitors split into a western and an eastern segment. The western segment retained its identity, and, because of it gave rise to one form and one form only, the classical European/Asia Minor red deer. This gene pool must have been mixed with every one of the 18 plus glacial advances during the Pleistocene. Today this form has relatively weakly differentiated subspecies, but an exceedingly long history of independent evolution. Consequently, subspecies must be all of recent origin, which is supported by the data of Ludt et al. 2004. The body shape of this form is that of a saltatorial/cursorial runner with exceedingly great adaptability to all sort of landscapes. This is a generalist species in contrast to the specialist speciation that took place in the eastern gene pool (see below). There is no difficulty naming the European red deer a species, based on the adaptive syndrome of a slatatorial/cursorial form and applying to it the old species designation Cervus elaphys L. 1758. This comes into clear focus when looking at he fate of the eastern gene pool, for it had a very different fate.
The eastern gene pool was not cohesive, but split deeply into four distinct and more specialized “body forms”:
1. The primitive original parent form, the sika deer, a classical saltatorial runner, with a four- pronged antler plan, a long tail and an erectable, long-haired rump patch. This form occupies moderately cool, temperate climates with short winters and low snow-levels. This form is classified as a different subgenus and species from European red deer, namely Cervus [Sika] sika (even though in the absence of predation these two species may hybridize and produce a hybrid flock with incompetent anti-predator adaptations). Note, this is a segregation at the subgenus, let alone species levels!
2. The advanced, large-bodied, specialized saltors, adapted to steep and high mountains whose slopes are also covered with willow and rhododendron shrubs, requiring extraordinary ability at jumping, and ascending steep hills. This requires a specialized saltatorial morphology, with large, well-muscled haunches. These deer have a five-pronged antler in that a very large bez tine has been added to the sika’s four-pronged antler plan. The tail and rump patch are totally different from the sika conditions. This body form is found in cold climates, with long winters. Examples are the Macneill’s stag, the Kasmir stag and the shou. A branch of this body form is found in lowland deserts in the dense riparian vegetation which follows desert rivers. These are the Buchara and Lop-Nor subspecies.
3. The very large deer with highly evolved cursorial body form and six-pronged antlers architecture. Again all these deer are different in rump patch and social characteristics from the preceding and succeeding deer. These are the maral/wapiti subspecies of central Asia and North America. These are cold adapted mixed feeders with a pronounced tendency to graze. They reach beyond the Arctic Circle. Their body plan evolved in response to life in open landscapes. The most highly evolved subspecies here is the Siberian and North American wapit, adapted as fast runners on open plains. Their body plan is cursorial and second only to the reindeer or caribou. Both were bested as advanced runners only by the Irish elk (Megalocers, see Geist 1998).
4. The specializes cursor/climber with highly advanced antler plan, but missing the bez tine, adapted to the highest of mountains and found on the highest alpine meadows and hills, but is capable of rapid climbing in cliffs as well. This form is the white-lipped deer (Cervus [Przewalskium] albirostris). This form is also so specialized and different from the others, that is segregated at the sub-generic level.
Please note that the eastern gene pool segregated into four distinct, specialized body forms while the western gene-pool evolved a fifth, but generalized body shape, namely that of the saltatorial/cursorial runner (Geist 1998). Each of the five body plans reveals a somewhat different approach to escaping the pursuit of predators, with the saltatorial being the most primitive and the cursorial the most advanced. That is, when we classify by body plan we classify by adaptation, which is the only way in which we can classify taxonomically. Note, this not a classification by descent, but independent of it! The differences in body plans reflect firstly differences in anti-predator adaptations. That is, red deer species are segregated primarily by anti-predator adaptations – as are all deer species. This reinforces the hypothesis that predation segregated deer ecologically and taxonomically as I pointed out as general rule for cervids in Geist (1998). Each species is also marked socially in a distinctive manner. Each species is thus an adaptive syndrome. Moreover, each of these adaptive syndromes (body plans) breaks up into a number of subspecies. A cluster of subspecies thus represents the same adaptations, and each adaptive syndrome is different from other clusters. We can therefore recognize as a species each cluster of subspecies with the same basic adaptations. The so-called Far Eastern red deer, are thus similar to European red deer only via convergence, which is, admittedly, a very powerful evolutionary process (Geist 1978). The red deer species as currently agreed to, Cervus elaphus ,is thus not monophyletic, but polyphyletic. Consequently, it is no species at all. We can thus label each distinct body form a species with its attending subspecies. We have consequently:
1. Cervus elaphus in Asia Minor and Europe, (saltatorial/cursorial, generalist)
2. Cervus affinis in the eastern Himalayas, eastern Tibet and western China, (saltatorial, advanced, specialist)
3. Cervus canadensis in central Asia and North America (cursorial, specialist)
4. Cervus albirostris as the high elevation specialist. (cursorial/climbing, specialist)
5. Cervus sika from temperate zoned China (slatatorial primitive)
This classification fits the evolutionary species concept as practiced by the IUCN Caprid specialist group. . The caprid biologists were right: each sheep species is an “adaptive syndrome”! Note that the species adaptive syndromes which arose from the eastern gene pool are more specialized and distant from one another, than either is from the generalist adaptive syndrome of the European red deer, despite being more closely related via mtDNA.
The molecular data also shows why Cervus canadensis is closer related to Cervus sika, than to Cervus elaphus, a previously puzzling finding which was dicussed by Harrington (1985).
The eastern gene pool was thus able to retain the primitive parental form, the sika deer, probably because on the Asiatic mainland sika deer could move southward with each glaciation, following milder climates and moist forested landscapes, while evading long, cold winters, deep snow and open landscapes. This opportunity to withdraw geographically to suitable forests was denied to members of the western gene pool, due to extensive desert formation about the Mediterranean basin with each major glacial advance. They survived probably as relict populations in the mountains of Asia Minor, from which they radiated into Europe with each interglacial.
The eastern gene-pool gave rise early to a form, highly evolved in body shape, antlers and social characteristics, which occupied the highest of mountain plateaus, the white-lipped deer. Central Asia is characterized by huge areas of high mountain elevations and such are retained during interglacials. Consequently, a high mountain specialist, the white-lipped deer, could maintain itself through out the Pleistocene. These extended high-elevation plateaus are not found in Europe or Asia Minor. The huge area of mountains and their high elevations insure that during glacial cycles the same habitat survives during glacials and interglacials.
Because high mountain plateaus are surrounded by large, steep slopes well vegetated with tall shrubs in the sub-alpine levels, the Himalayan/Tibetan deer (Cervus affinis) split sharply form all other groups as they specialized in dealing effectively with the vagaries of steep, long, shrubbery-covered slopes. Their body form differs consequently from both the cursorial body form of the plains runners, and the saltaorial/cursorial body form of European red deer. Again the huge area of mountains and their high elevation insure for habitat continuity during glacial cycles.
The same goes for the wide-open plains to which the cursorial Asian/North America forms (Cervus canadensis) have adapted. They have well developed appendages and bodies specialized for fast running over short grasses and feature the largest antlers, an adaptation to the open plains in the service of neonatal survival (see Geist 1998, 1991, 1986). Judging from Chinese fossils, these deer are quite old.
The body forms and adaptive syndromes of the wapiti/maral species and that of the Tibetan and riparian “jumping deer” species are more divergent, than are either from the European red deer. Each of these species is characterized not only by distinct antler form, but also by highly distinct rump patches, double patch with long tail in European red deer, small white rump patch in jumping deer, large single patch in wapiti/maral species, both with a short tail. The antler plan in the Tibetan deer is five-rponged, in the wapiti, maral group six pronged, and in the European red deer, five pronged with enhanced terminal branching.
The “red deer” in the consensus species Cervus elaphus thus represent a polyphyletic group, which can be split into three good species. Parallel and converging evolution from the same gene pool resulted in considerable similarity between the European reed deer, the Tibetan and desert deer and the maral/wapiti group. There was some meeting of eastern and western species as shown by the mitochondrial DNA of the western-most subspecies of Tibetan deer, the Kashmir stag. It clusters with the Buchara and Lop Nor deer.
References
Geist, V. 1978. Life Strategies, Human Evolution, Environmental Design. Springer Verlag, New York.
Geist, v. 1986. The paradox of the great Irish stags. Natural History 94(3) 54-64.
Geist, V. 1991. Bones of contention revisited: did antlers enlarge with sexual selection sd a consequence of neonatal security strategies? Applied Animal Behaviour Science 29: 453-469.
Geist, V. 1998. Deer of the World. Stackpole Books, Mechanicsburg, Pa.
Harrington, R. Evolution and distribution of the Cervidae pp. 3-11 P. F. Fentress and K. R. Drew (eds). Biology of Deer Production. The royal Society of new Zealand, Bulletin 22, Wellington.
Ludt, C. J., Schroeder, W., Rottmann, O., Kuehn, R. (2004) Mitochondrial DNA phylogeny of red deer (Cervus elaphus). Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 31 (3) 1064-1083.
.-- dlc_73 21:21, 30 October 2006
Good job...now we have figure out what of the above can be added to the soon to be split articles...is this simply his thoughts or is it going to be part of a published paper. If it is going to be published, then we have to ensure each passage is referenced to the source and quoted or reworded to avoid a copyviolation. Obviously, there is an official" upcoming announcement that the Red Deer species are to be divided into several species and this is agreed by those in the scientific community? Regardless, with Dr. Geist and the DNA study mentioned in the article, that is all the proof we need that we are dealing with two to three species and that each one can have their own article. We also need ot make it clear of the similarities of each species in each article and dicuss the history of the identification of these types.--
MONGO
05:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Dr Geist is a professor at University of Calgary and can be contacted. I do have the actual message he sent to me along with the attached article, and have pretty much echoed his sentiments. Unfortunately, I don't know what publication this article will be in...but I believe it is upcoming, and that all enthusiasts should be on the lookout for it.
Please note/be advised that the following deer have already long been classified as separate species:
4. Thorold's Deer, or White-Lipped Deer (Cervus (Przewalskium) Albirostris) (see Thorold's Deer for more information)
5. Sika Deer (a.k.a. Cervus sika) (Cervus (Sika) Nippon) (see Sika Deer for more information)
I believe Dr. Geist included them, because these two species are closely related, genetically, to the Red Deer and Wapiti.
.-- dlc_73 22:50, 30 October 2006
The articles on Ursus arctos are instructive. The Grizzly and the Brown Bear (and the Kodiak for that matter) all have different articles even though they are one species.-- Counsel 22:18, 30 October 2006 (UTC)