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Lutheran theologians have rejected this term as implying that the elements of the sacrament are mixed together. Since they believe that the body and blood of Christ and the bread and wine remain separate and distinct in the sacrament, they have rejected the term in favor of the term "Real Presence." -- CTSWyneken 12:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Edit prior to User:CTSWyneken, tried to provide summary. This was removed. I believe it is useful to lead in discussion. May be possible to better present intro, and tie it into article. Removal of reference to consubstantiation (even if not a term used by Lutherans) and absence would not help readers Paul foord 03:25, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why is Real Presence in the category for Restoration movement, and why does it mention the Disciples of Christ? I don't believe these groups affirm Real Presence; aren't they memorialists? I could be wrong. KHM03 12:09, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If they do not ascribe to this belief, why are they listed here? KHM03 12:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Relevant to the topic, perhaps, but should "Real Presence" be listed under the category "Restoration movement", which by and large rejects "real presence"? "Memorialism", sure..."Lord's Supper", yes. But "Real Presence"? I don't think so.
Having said that, there certainly could be a subsection to "Real Presence" which mentions the fact that some Christian traditions reject the idea, and a bit as to why...though detailed discussions as to their own Eucharistic theologies are best presented under Eucharist, Lord's Supper, Holy Communion, Memorialism, or something like that. KHM03 13:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Three things got changed in my edit.
1. "ascribe to this doctrine", of course, should have read, "subscribe to this doctrine".
2. I sectioned off the Reformed view, which does affirm the Real Presence, but in a very different manner from the ALCOMeths (Anglican, Lutheran Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist; and yes, I chose that acronym deliberately : D ). It deserves its own section, because lumping it with the Baptistic view conflates the two, and they are quite different. I couldn't get the opening of the section to work properly, though, so if anyone gets a brainwave on how to make it happen, please do. The major problem is that, AFAIK, all holders of this view are Reformed, but not all the Reformed hold this view.
3. I noted that the "non-presence" view is called Zwinglian, after Zwingli. Oddly, the Wiki article on Zwingli doesn't note his (at the time, unique) views on the Sacraments. I also noted that this view is commonly associated with Baptists and some Reformed churches.
Wooster 14:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"The majority of churches require that ordained clergy consecrate the elements. Some groups, such as the Disciples of Christ-Christian Churches allow lay people to consecrate the elements." I'm not sure, but I think the idea of "consecrating" the elements might be foreign to Disciples/Church of Christ. - Rlvaughn 4 July 2005 20:16 (UTC)
Rlvaughn is right, "consecration" isn't an idea the DOC officially promotes. From The Disciples Official Site:
Traditionally the Disciples of Christ have been hesitant to speak of the Lord's Supper as a sacrament. They believed that some who regarded the Lord's Supper as a sacrament attributed supernatural powers to the elements of bread and wine. It may be true that Jesus said that "he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life (John 6:54)," but Jesus often spoke in lively metaphor. The meaning for us is expanded when we understand that Jesus spoke in these symbolic terms.
Although impatient with theological conjectures explaining how communion elements become Christ's body, there has been little doubt among Disciples as to the reality of the living Christ's presence among those who share in the Lord's Supper. The Lord makes himself known to persons in a variety of circumstances. Characteristically he is known in the sharing together of the Lord's Supper. If a sacrament is, as some say, "an outward and visible sign of the Lord's invisible grace," Disciples have no particular problem with speaking of the Lord's Supper as a sacrament.
DOC offers a wide latitude for individuals to decide what they believe for themselves: "Disciples are called together around one essential of faith: belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Persons are free to follow their consciences guided by the Bible, the Holy Spirit study and prayer, and are expected to extend that freedom to others." Some DOC'ers believe in transubstantion, consubstantiation, "nosubstantiation," and a variety of positions in between, and that's exactly how the DOC wants it to be. Call it a "pillar of the faith."
Also, I changed the link in the article to point to the DOC article rather than restoration movement, and to reflect the standard nomenclature Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). -- Essjay · Talk July 5, 2005 18:50 (UTC)
I just fact-checked (and boy, did it take time) and Lutherans happily use the word consecration *and* call their ministers pastors. Well, the Germans. Scandies call them priests. I never knew that, so just in case anyone else was wondering (like I did) why the word "pastor" was snuck into that paragraph, that's why. Wooster 8 July 2005 16:56 (UTC)
Presidency is a concept used by DOC, relevant to differentiate betw consecrating & distr generally Paul foord 7 July 2005 12:01 (UTC)
I'm thinking that, a template needs to be made which contains very brief descriptions of the various views: probably, one for each view. This could be inserted into each article where these descriptions are called for (they are in several articles). Using templates for the repeated material would force consistency of terminology and explanation. If we have one template for each view, then we could also expand within a section, if called for in that particular article. Mkmcconn (Talk) 08:18, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I like the banner-style template for Eucharist; but I think that for this particular issue - especially because it is so useful in different contexts to explain distinctions in traditions - this other approach might be more productive. This article would be the logical base for the project. Is there support for trying it, to see what you think? Mkmcconn (Talk) 08:18, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding a template, maybe a suggested/consistant structure would be useful. Maybe
I think these articles are sometimes short on Biblical and Patristic citations.
Use of main template could be useful pointer. Paul foord 14:01, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
This was posted by an anonymous editor, under the the Lutheran view. The opinion accords with what has been written elsewhere on WP, and so I incorporated a change based on the strongest objection: Mkmcconn (Talk) 01:00, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The Lutheran position on the Lord's Supper is more accurately labeled as Sacramental Union; therefore I propose the following revision of this section to clarify the Lutheran position here:
I've rewritten the Anglican/Episcopalian section at Eucharistic_theologies_contrasted since it was previously quite Anglo-Catholic in POV. While this page on the Real Presence is nowhere near as Anglo-Catholic in POV I think some improvements could be made. (I already have some material to use as I originally wrote much more than ended up on that page).
First of all, lumping Calvinist Anglicans (who believe in the Spiritual Presence) together with those who believe in the bodily presence of Christ and calling them both a belief in the "Real Presence" is a bit misleading. If you asked most Calvinsit Anglicans what they believed they would strongly DENY belief in the "Real Presence" but also uphold Christ's Spiritual Presence -- not in the elements but with his people when they "feed on him in [their] heart[s] by faith with thanksgiving". I don't think the "Spiritual Presence" view can fairly be categorised as "Real Presence". But nor is it a complete denial of Christ's presence. The position is fairly nuanced and needs to be explained a bit better.
Secondly, stating that Anglicans generally believe in the Real Presence is highly contentious. I'm not sure how small your small minority of dissentiants is (or whether indeed it is a minority at all). It all depends on where you're coming from. If you inhabit largely High Church circles (eg ECUSA) then it will seem like an almost non-existent minority of intransigent Puritans who would be better served by leaving Anglicanism and joining the Presbyterians etc :-) If you inhabit largely Low Church Circles (eg Diocese of Sydney -- numerically by far and away the largest Diocese in Australia where estimates are that Sydney has more Sunday church attenders than all other Australian dioceses combined; or most of the Church of Ireland or large chunks of the C of E etc etc) the situation is reversed and those who believe in the Real Presence are in the minority and would be better served by going and joining Rome :-) So unless you have some statistics to back you up I think that's a little POV to say that Anglicans generally believe in the Real Presence. It all depends where you're coming from, not to mention what you mean by "Real Presence".
Thirdly, stating that Anglicans officially believe in the Real Presence begs the question. These Low-Church deniers of the Real Presence would argue very strongly that Anglicanism officially rejects belief in the Real Presence and teaches that belief in the Real Presence is idolatrous. So this requires us to look very hard at (i) what we mean by the "Real Presence" and (ii) the official Anglican doctrinal standards. The position of ECUSA might make things hard. In most places (despite liturgical revision) the official doctrinal standards remain the BCP 1662 and the 39 Articles of 1562. ECUSA has adopted modified forms which don't just serve as alternate liturgy but which also serve as doctrinal standards. Hopefully these don't change anything of substance -- but who knows. ECUSA has now officially called the Holy Communion/ Lord's Supper (the two 1662 terms) the "Holy Eucharist" and (as far as I know) declared it as the central aspect of Episcopalian worship! This would horrify many Low-Church Anglicans who would see this as popish superstition infiltrating a Reformed Church.
If I (Anglican Church of Australia but currently in England and attending a C of E) wanted to explain what Anglicans officially believe I would have to exegete the BCP 1662 and the 39 Articles of 1562. And it is far from clear cut that Anglicans officially believe in the Real Presence. This is very controversial as Low Church and High Church Anglicans interpret them very differently.
I would be happy to outline the relevant bits of the BCP 1662 and the 39 Articles 1562 and give the various lines of argument both for and against any official belief in the Real Presence. But would this satisfy an ECUSA Anglican? I think it would become too unwieldy to have to deal with more than one set of doctrinal standards.
Finally, reference to the Windsor Statement/ ARCIC is quite POV. No mention is made of the fact that (a) this does not represent any official doctrinal position of Anglicanism; only the BCP and the 39 Articles do; (b) ARCIC is inhabited by Anglo-Catholics (who therefore don't speak for Anglicanism as a whole); most Low-Church Anglicans disagree strongly with pretty much everything ARCIC has ever said.
What do people think? Apodeictic 11:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
One non-Anglican thinks: Go ahead. Lima 12:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I've done it; but it is about two-and-a-half-times as long as the current section. This doesn't surprse me since I'm outlining at least two different views of Anglicanism (pro-Real Presence and Anti-Real Presence not to mention the variations on a theme). Part of me thinks this Intra-denominational differences of opinion should have its own space on Wiki, so as not to overload other pages (such as this one) which aim to compare and contrast Inter-denominational differences of opinion. But the divisions within Anglicanism are arguably very unique and unlike divisions within other denominations. You can't just say "Anglicanism adheres to belief in the Real Presence" or "Anglicanism rejects belief in the Real Presence". Just about everything is disputed within Anglicanism and you will be able to find respectable voices (not just the "lunatic fringe" as some Wiki pages would seem to suggest about some Anglican viewpoints) for every position. You have people akin to the most radically conservative non-Conformist (Independent) Evangelicals at one end of the spectrum, ultra-ritualist, traditionalist and conservative Catholics at the other end of the spectrum and everyone else (including the most liberal theological liberals) in between -- all in a single denomination. If you are to do justice in comparing Anglicans with other denominations you need to know something (in broad outline at least) about the major internal divisions within Anglicanism. Arguably belief in or rejection of the Real Presence is one of those. What to do??? Can I create an Anglican Real Presence Page on Wikipedia? Or will that irk the organisational types who think that every denominational view on the Real Presence can and should be covered on a single page such as this one? Can we have a section on this page (not really any bigger than the current Anglican section) that links to another page with each viewpoint's arguments? Are people looking at Wikipedia interested in a presentation of the various arguments about the proper interpretation of Anglican doctrinal standards (so that they can evaluate the strength of these arguments for themselves) or are they happy just to know that differences of opinion exist and remain forever blissfully ignorant of the merits of the arguments behind these differences of opinion? Apodeictic 13:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I am indeed grateful to Apodeictic for what to me seems to be a good clear exposition of an unclear subject. The WWI "quip" was in fact what someone who had been a British army chaplain in that war said he had himself witnessed. Since he is dead for some 45 years, I cannot ask him to confirm it. Lima 18:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Basically, although low churchmen might argue that Anglicanism officially rejects RP, this argument is wrong. The 39 Articles say "the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.". Few Christian groups recognize no form of Real Presence (Baptists and Mennonites don't). Catholics have a very physical understanding of it, and Presbyterians (for example) on the other hand understand it as a "spiritual presence", but neither believes its just a symbol. I'm not denying that some Anglicans believe in memorialism, but they cannot claim to speak "officially" any more than the equally small number of Anglicans who believe in transubstantiation (I was once one of these, but now think more highly of transignification). Carolynparrishfan 16:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I was reading over the article again, and wondered if the word "ubiquity" is still used in Lutheran definitions, to understand "Real Presence". The article does not use this word, which has been a cause of difference between the Calvinist Reformed and the Lutherans. Is the omission an error? — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 01:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The article makes no mention of eucharistic miracles, where the bread and wine has indeed changed into actual blood and flesh, usually to convince priests in doubt over the truthfulness of church teachings. The miracle of Lanciano is especially famous and has been the subject of medical investigations in the early 1970s. 91.83.19.148 ( talk) 17:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Certain writers have claimed that peritus Joseph Ratzinger wrote a book called Die Sacramentale Begrundung Christliche Existenz in which he criticized traditional beliefs on the real presence. It would be interesting if we could find sources on what his actual beliefs on the subject are. In any event, as Sovereign Pontiff he has strongly promoted a belief in the Real Presence of Jesus. [2] [3] ADM ( talk) 04:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
The Orthodox Church also lays claim to the title "Catholic Church;" since the fluency or concision of the article cannot seriously be said to be harmed by the inclusion of the informative qualifier "Roman," I think it should stay. Perhaps you could go change them if you at least leave the first one as "Roman Catholic" to avoid ambiguity (you could include a parenthetical 'hereafter referred to as the Catholic Church' or something like that). JALatimer ( talk)
(A) Angr, while I agree with you that, in general, using "Catholic" to denote "Roman Catholic" to the exclusion of all others who lay claim to the word is biased (thats why I brought back "Roman" in my edit), I'm going to have to go with Fralupo on this one: the branch theory itself is POV. Fralupo, I'm glad you like my suggestion. It seems like the best way balance concision and efficiency while keeping the article as free of POV as possible. It also bows a bit to common usage, which seems to me entirely reasonable.
(B) The only problem I see is how the disclaimer itself would read. If put after the very first mention of "Roman Catholic Church", it could say "(hereafter referred to as the 'Catholic Church')". -- JALatimer ( talk) 06:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
The article mainly identifies the Eucharistic belief of the United Methodist Church.. so I was wondering if all Methodists beleive the same thing? There are various Methodist denominations and denominations that branched off of methodism, but I do not know much about their beliefs: United Methodist Church, Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, African Methodist Episcopal Church, African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, Methodist Church of Great Britain, Methodist Church Ghana, Free Methodist Church, Evangelical Methodist Church, Wesleyan Church, Church of the Nazarene, United Church of Canada, Christ's Sanctified Holy Church, Congregational Methodist Church, Methodist Protestant Church, Primitive Methodist Church, etc.. does anyone know if all Methodist Churches have the same Eucharistic belief as the United Methodist Church? -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 00:42, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I think that we need a plan to merge and/or simplify certain sections of Eucharist-related articles. Another editor wrote in 2009 that he thinks they should all be merged.
For more information these ideas, see this discussion on the Eucharistic_theologies_summarised talk page.
Thanks, -- Geekdiva ( talk) 13:21, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move as proposed. Vegaswikian ( talk) 23:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Real Presence → Real presence — Relisted. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC) In Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines and their adherents it says
Accordingly it seems that "real presence" should not be capitalized and the page should be moved to "Real presence". Joja lozzo 20:41, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Note - The current plan is to move this page to Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist in a couple of days unless someone raises objections. Joja lozzo 18:20, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
So the above discussion was closed as no consensus for the original proposal - but what about the latter proposal, do we not seem to have consensus for that?-- Kotniski ( talk) 09:13, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
"Catholic and Orthodox" as subheading is merely meant to designate Churches practicing " Catholicism". A better title might be found. The previous title suggested that beliefs regarding the Eucharist were universal before the reformation; there were however many sects with differing beliefs that are not covered here. The current title is meant to cover the content found within the subsection in its current form. -- Zfish118 ( talk) 15:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
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I believe in order to maintain a WP:NPOV that we simply use the title headers "Views" and not say that one or the other group is a "Real Presence" or not. Quite simply, a Catholic does NOT think consubstantiation is "Real Presence" and the Reformed thinks Catholic transubstantiation is FAR from Biblical doctrine of "Real Presence". See https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historys-biggest-food-fight as an example of Reformed views. Dr. Ryan E. ( talk) 09:54, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Citations do not support your claims Ryan E.. This article authored by Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr., D.D., M.Div. (though he favors the Reformed real spiritual presence position himself) explains the memoralist position clearly in the Memorialism section and says It maintains that there is no real presence of Christ at the Lord's Table, but the Meal is only a memorial of the atonement purchased by Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:23-26). They assert that the bread and wine remain as bread and wine at the Meal. [4] Stop lumping it in together with views of the real presence because it's not, but exactly the opposite. desmay ( talk) 17:15, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Oh, it's most commonly called the memoralist position not the ordinance position so I've fixed that too. Stop changing this around unless other Wiki editors agree with you, which they're currently not doing. desmay ( talk) 17:25, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Elizium23, I don't understand what you're trying to achieve here. It seems you have a bit of WP:OWN and are pushing a specific POV. Particularly you should look here as The Gospel Coalition is run by a council of qualified pastors and not a blog any more than the following sources on this page are:
As you can see, these are just some of the sources used in this article! And you claim that mine is not a reliable source. Elizium, you said I don't know why you are talking about "Full communion" and "List of Christian denominations by number of members" here on this talk page.
and I gave my reason this is slightly off topic. I have noticed a bias against Protestantism here on Wikpedia. Just taking a look at the
. I would say let's drop that. However you said Now you are talking about Zwingli and I never brought it up
, but you reverted my edit and this is talking about the POV of THIS article to which I gave a defense of my edits: If edits to the article are you claiming the facts aren't in alignment with the article...
which is on topic because you said there was nothing like what you refer to in that article
. Which I assume means the in the edits you reverted. Even though you gave a completely different reason for reverting the edit (that it was not a
WP:RS). Very confusing, which is the reason? My text not matching the article or it not being reliable? I have given a defense against both accusations.
Dr. Ryan E. (
talk)
15:19, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Please stop talking about...you've wandered into WP:NOTFORUM and are now stating your opinion about my opinion, rather than my suggestion about improving both articles. Dr. Ryan E. ( talk) 23:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
There are many non-Christian editors out there who edit articles like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Gospel, Biblical reliability, but a lot of Early Fathers and controversial (within Christianity) articles are NOT POV checked.
The proposed lede suggests that the Real Presence doctrine is a "problem" and that there are "contradictions". I don't see the need for introducing such controversy in the first paragraph. Elizium23 ( talk) 17:00, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Anupam, surely by a simple misunderstanding, has removed the text of an agreed statement by official Anglican and Catholic delegations on what the doctrine of transubstantiation really means, and has thus treated as incontrovertible Losch's contrary account of transubstantiation, which is explicitly contradicted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I didn't quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, preferring in the context to quote the inter-Church statement. In my poor opinion, what should be deleted is Losch's inaccurate statement: did he know better than an Anglican+Catholic joint body (not to speak of the Catholic Church itself) what transubstantiation is? Bealtainemí ( talk) 20:25, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
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Lutheran theologians have rejected this term as implying that the elements of the sacrament are mixed together. Since they believe that the body and blood of Christ and the bread and wine remain separate and distinct in the sacrament, they have rejected the term in favor of the term "Real Presence." -- CTSWyneken 12:09, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
Edit prior to User:CTSWyneken, tried to provide summary. This was removed. I believe it is useful to lead in discussion. May be possible to better present intro, and tie it into article. Removal of reference to consubstantiation (even if not a term used by Lutherans) and absence would not help readers Paul foord 03:25, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why is Real Presence in the category for Restoration movement, and why does it mention the Disciples of Christ? I don't believe these groups affirm Real Presence; aren't they memorialists? I could be wrong. KHM03 12:09, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If they do not ascribe to this belief, why are they listed here? KHM03 12:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Relevant to the topic, perhaps, but should "Real Presence" be listed under the category "Restoration movement", which by and large rejects "real presence"? "Memorialism", sure..."Lord's Supper", yes. But "Real Presence"? I don't think so.
Having said that, there certainly could be a subsection to "Real Presence" which mentions the fact that some Christian traditions reject the idea, and a bit as to why...though detailed discussions as to their own Eucharistic theologies are best presented under Eucharist, Lord's Supper, Holy Communion, Memorialism, or something like that. KHM03 13:23, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Three things got changed in my edit.
1. "ascribe to this doctrine", of course, should have read, "subscribe to this doctrine".
2. I sectioned off the Reformed view, which does affirm the Real Presence, but in a very different manner from the ALCOMeths (Anglican, Lutheran Catholic, Orthodox, Methodist; and yes, I chose that acronym deliberately : D ). It deserves its own section, because lumping it with the Baptistic view conflates the two, and they are quite different. I couldn't get the opening of the section to work properly, though, so if anyone gets a brainwave on how to make it happen, please do. The major problem is that, AFAIK, all holders of this view are Reformed, but not all the Reformed hold this view.
3. I noted that the "non-presence" view is called Zwinglian, after Zwingli. Oddly, the Wiki article on Zwingli doesn't note his (at the time, unique) views on the Sacraments. I also noted that this view is commonly associated with Baptists and some Reformed churches.
Wooster 14:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
"The majority of churches require that ordained clergy consecrate the elements. Some groups, such as the Disciples of Christ-Christian Churches allow lay people to consecrate the elements." I'm not sure, but I think the idea of "consecrating" the elements might be foreign to Disciples/Church of Christ. - Rlvaughn 4 July 2005 20:16 (UTC)
Rlvaughn is right, "consecration" isn't an idea the DOC officially promotes. From The Disciples Official Site:
Traditionally the Disciples of Christ have been hesitant to speak of the Lord's Supper as a sacrament. They believed that some who regarded the Lord's Supper as a sacrament attributed supernatural powers to the elements of bread and wine. It may be true that Jesus said that "he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life (John 6:54)," but Jesus often spoke in lively metaphor. The meaning for us is expanded when we understand that Jesus spoke in these symbolic terms.
Although impatient with theological conjectures explaining how communion elements become Christ's body, there has been little doubt among Disciples as to the reality of the living Christ's presence among those who share in the Lord's Supper. The Lord makes himself known to persons in a variety of circumstances. Characteristically he is known in the sharing together of the Lord's Supper. If a sacrament is, as some say, "an outward and visible sign of the Lord's invisible grace," Disciples have no particular problem with speaking of the Lord's Supper as a sacrament.
DOC offers a wide latitude for individuals to decide what they believe for themselves: "Disciples are called together around one essential of faith: belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Persons are free to follow their consciences guided by the Bible, the Holy Spirit study and prayer, and are expected to extend that freedom to others." Some DOC'ers believe in transubstantion, consubstantiation, "nosubstantiation," and a variety of positions in between, and that's exactly how the DOC wants it to be. Call it a "pillar of the faith."
Also, I changed the link in the article to point to the DOC article rather than restoration movement, and to reflect the standard nomenclature Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). -- Essjay · Talk July 5, 2005 18:50 (UTC)
I just fact-checked (and boy, did it take time) and Lutherans happily use the word consecration *and* call their ministers pastors. Well, the Germans. Scandies call them priests. I never knew that, so just in case anyone else was wondering (like I did) why the word "pastor" was snuck into that paragraph, that's why. Wooster 8 July 2005 16:56 (UTC)
Presidency is a concept used by DOC, relevant to differentiate betw consecrating & distr generally Paul foord 7 July 2005 12:01 (UTC)
I'm thinking that, a template needs to be made which contains very brief descriptions of the various views: probably, one for each view. This could be inserted into each article where these descriptions are called for (they are in several articles). Using templates for the repeated material would force consistency of terminology and explanation. If we have one template for each view, then we could also expand within a section, if called for in that particular article. Mkmcconn (Talk) 08:18, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
I like the banner-style template for Eucharist; but I think that for this particular issue - especially because it is so useful in different contexts to explain distinctions in traditions - this other approach might be more productive. This article would be the logical base for the project. Is there support for trying it, to see what you think? Mkmcconn (Talk) 08:18, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Regarding a template, maybe a suggested/consistant structure would be useful. Maybe
I think these articles are sometimes short on Biblical and Patristic citations.
Use of main template could be useful pointer. Paul foord 14:01, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
This was posted by an anonymous editor, under the the Lutheran view. The opinion accords with what has been written elsewhere on WP, and so I incorporated a change based on the strongest objection: Mkmcconn (Talk) 01:00, 28 July 2005 (UTC)
The Lutheran position on the Lord's Supper is more accurately labeled as Sacramental Union; therefore I propose the following revision of this section to clarify the Lutheran position here:
I've rewritten the Anglican/Episcopalian section at Eucharistic_theologies_contrasted since it was previously quite Anglo-Catholic in POV. While this page on the Real Presence is nowhere near as Anglo-Catholic in POV I think some improvements could be made. (I already have some material to use as I originally wrote much more than ended up on that page).
First of all, lumping Calvinist Anglicans (who believe in the Spiritual Presence) together with those who believe in the bodily presence of Christ and calling them both a belief in the "Real Presence" is a bit misleading. If you asked most Calvinsit Anglicans what they believed they would strongly DENY belief in the "Real Presence" but also uphold Christ's Spiritual Presence -- not in the elements but with his people when they "feed on him in [their] heart[s] by faith with thanksgiving". I don't think the "Spiritual Presence" view can fairly be categorised as "Real Presence". But nor is it a complete denial of Christ's presence. The position is fairly nuanced and needs to be explained a bit better.
Secondly, stating that Anglicans generally believe in the Real Presence is highly contentious. I'm not sure how small your small minority of dissentiants is (or whether indeed it is a minority at all). It all depends on where you're coming from. If you inhabit largely High Church circles (eg ECUSA) then it will seem like an almost non-existent minority of intransigent Puritans who would be better served by leaving Anglicanism and joining the Presbyterians etc :-) If you inhabit largely Low Church Circles (eg Diocese of Sydney -- numerically by far and away the largest Diocese in Australia where estimates are that Sydney has more Sunday church attenders than all other Australian dioceses combined; or most of the Church of Ireland or large chunks of the C of E etc etc) the situation is reversed and those who believe in the Real Presence are in the minority and would be better served by going and joining Rome :-) So unless you have some statistics to back you up I think that's a little POV to say that Anglicans generally believe in the Real Presence. It all depends where you're coming from, not to mention what you mean by "Real Presence".
Thirdly, stating that Anglicans officially believe in the Real Presence begs the question. These Low-Church deniers of the Real Presence would argue very strongly that Anglicanism officially rejects belief in the Real Presence and teaches that belief in the Real Presence is idolatrous. So this requires us to look very hard at (i) what we mean by the "Real Presence" and (ii) the official Anglican doctrinal standards. The position of ECUSA might make things hard. In most places (despite liturgical revision) the official doctrinal standards remain the BCP 1662 and the 39 Articles of 1562. ECUSA has adopted modified forms which don't just serve as alternate liturgy but which also serve as doctrinal standards. Hopefully these don't change anything of substance -- but who knows. ECUSA has now officially called the Holy Communion/ Lord's Supper (the two 1662 terms) the "Holy Eucharist" and (as far as I know) declared it as the central aspect of Episcopalian worship! This would horrify many Low-Church Anglicans who would see this as popish superstition infiltrating a Reformed Church.
If I (Anglican Church of Australia but currently in England and attending a C of E) wanted to explain what Anglicans officially believe I would have to exegete the BCP 1662 and the 39 Articles of 1562. And it is far from clear cut that Anglicans officially believe in the Real Presence. This is very controversial as Low Church and High Church Anglicans interpret them very differently.
I would be happy to outline the relevant bits of the BCP 1662 and the 39 Articles 1562 and give the various lines of argument both for and against any official belief in the Real Presence. But would this satisfy an ECUSA Anglican? I think it would become too unwieldy to have to deal with more than one set of doctrinal standards.
Finally, reference to the Windsor Statement/ ARCIC is quite POV. No mention is made of the fact that (a) this does not represent any official doctrinal position of Anglicanism; only the BCP and the 39 Articles do; (b) ARCIC is inhabited by Anglo-Catholics (who therefore don't speak for Anglicanism as a whole); most Low-Church Anglicans disagree strongly with pretty much everything ARCIC has ever said.
What do people think? Apodeictic 11:13, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
One non-Anglican thinks: Go ahead. Lima 12:41, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I've done it; but it is about two-and-a-half-times as long as the current section. This doesn't surprse me since I'm outlining at least two different views of Anglicanism (pro-Real Presence and Anti-Real Presence not to mention the variations on a theme). Part of me thinks this Intra-denominational differences of opinion should have its own space on Wiki, so as not to overload other pages (such as this one) which aim to compare and contrast Inter-denominational differences of opinion. But the divisions within Anglicanism are arguably very unique and unlike divisions within other denominations. You can't just say "Anglicanism adheres to belief in the Real Presence" or "Anglicanism rejects belief in the Real Presence". Just about everything is disputed within Anglicanism and you will be able to find respectable voices (not just the "lunatic fringe" as some Wiki pages would seem to suggest about some Anglican viewpoints) for every position. You have people akin to the most radically conservative non-Conformist (Independent) Evangelicals at one end of the spectrum, ultra-ritualist, traditionalist and conservative Catholics at the other end of the spectrum and everyone else (including the most liberal theological liberals) in between -- all in a single denomination. If you are to do justice in comparing Anglicans with other denominations you need to know something (in broad outline at least) about the major internal divisions within Anglicanism. Arguably belief in or rejection of the Real Presence is one of those. What to do??? Can I create an Anglican Real Presence Page on Wikipedia? Or will that irk the organisational types who think that every denominational view on the Real Presence can and should be covered on a single page such as this one? Can we have a section on this page (not really any bigger than the current Anglican section) that links to another page with each viewpoint's arguments? Are people looking at Wikipedia interested in a presentation of the various arguments about the proper interpretation of Anglican doctrinal standards (so that they can evaluate the strength of these arguments for themselves) or are they happy just to know that differences of opinion exist and remain forever blissfully ignorant of the merits of the arguments behind these differences of opinion? Apodeictic 13:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
I am indeed grateful to Apodeictic for what to me seems to be a good clear exposition of an unclear subject. The WWI "quip" was in fact what someone who had been a British army chaplain in that war said he had himself witnessed. Since he is dead for some 45 years, I cannot ask him to confirm it. Lima 18:03, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Basically, although low churchmen might argue that Anglicanism officially rejects RP, this argument is wrong. The 39 Articles say "the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.". Few Christian groups recognize no form of Real Presence (Baptists and Mennonites don't). Catholics have a very physical understanding of it, and Presbyterians (for example) on the other hand understand it as a "spiritual presence", but neither believes its just a symbol. I'm not denying that some Anglicans believe in memorialism, but they cannot claim to speak "officially" any more than the equally small number of Anglicans who believe in transubstantiation (I was once one of these, but now think more highly of transignification). Carolynparrishfan 16:37, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
I was reading over the article again, and wondered if the word "ubiquity" is still used in Lutheran definitions, to understand "Real Presence". The article does not use this word, which has been a cause of difference between the Calvinist Reformed and the Lutherans. Is the omission an error? — Mark ( Mkmcconn) ** 01:59, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
The article makes no mention of eucharistic miracles, where the bread and wine has indeed changed into actual blood and flesh, usually to convince priests in doubt over the truthfulness of church teachings. The miracle of Lanciano is especially famous and has been the subject of medical investigations in the early 1970s. 91.83.19.148 ( talk) 17:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Certain writers have claimed that peritus Joseph Ratzinger wrote a book called Die Sacramentale Begrundung Christliche Existenz in which he criticized traditional beliefs on the real presence. It would be interesting if we could find sources on what his actual beliefs on the subject are. In any event, as Sovereign Pontiff he has strongly promoted a belief in the Real Presence of Jesus. [2] [3] ADM ( talk) 04:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
The Orthodox Church also lays claim to the title "Catholic Church;" since the fluency or concision of the article cannot seriously be said to be harmed by the inclusion of the informative qualifier "Roman," I think it should stay. Perhaps you could go change them if you at least leave the first one as "Roman Catholic" to avoid ambiguity (you could include a parenthetical 'hereafter referred to as the Catholic Church' or something like that). JALatimer ( talk)
(A) Angr, while I agree with you that, in general, using "Catholic" to denote "Roman Catholic" to the exclusion of all others who lay claim to the word is biased (thats why I brought back "Roman" in my edit), I'm going to have to go with Fralupo on this one: the branch theory itself is POV. Fralupo, I'm glad you like my suggestion. It seems like the best way balance concision and efficiency while keeping the article as free of POV as possible. It also bows a bit to common usage, which seems to me entirely reasonable.
(B) The only problem I see is how the disclaimer itself would read. If put after the very first mention of "Roman Catholic Church", it could say "(hereafter referred to as the 'Catholic Church')". -- JALatimer ( talk) 06:55, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
The article mainly identifies the Eucharistic belief of the United Methodist Church.. so I was wondering if all Methodists beleive the same thing? There are various Methodist denominations and denominations that branched off of methodism, but I do not know much about their beliefs: United Methodist Church, Christian Methodist Episcopal Church, African Methodist Episcopal Church, African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church, Methodist Church of Great Britain, Methodist Church Ghana, Free Methodist Church, Evangelical Methodist Church, Wesleyan Church, Church of the Nazarene, United Church of Canada, Christ's Sanctified Holy Church, Congregational Methodist Church, Methodist Protestant Church, Primitive Methodist Church, etc.. does anyone know if all Methodist Churches have the same Eucharistic belief as the United Methodist Church? -- Willthacheerleader18 ( talk) 00:42, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
I think that we need a plan to merge and/or simplify certain sections of Eucharist-related articles. Another editor wrote in 2009 that he thinks they should all be merged.
For more information these ideas, see this discussion on the Eucharistic_theologies_summarised talk page.
Thanks, -- Geekdiva ( talk) 13:21, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
No consensus to move as proposed. Vegaswikian ( talk) 23:35, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
Real Presence → Real presence — Relisted. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC) In Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines and their adherents it says
Accordingly it seems that "real presence" should not be capitalized and the page should be moved to "Real presence". Joja lozzo 20:41, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.Note - The current plan is to move this page to Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist in a couple of days unless someone raises objections. Joja lozzo 18:20, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
So the above discussion was closed as no consensus for the original proposal - but what about the latter proposal, do we not seem to have consensus for that?-- Kotniski ( talk) 09:13, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
"Catholic and Orthodox" as subheading is merely meant to designate Churches practicing " Catholicism". A better title might be found. The previous title suggested that beliefs regarding the Eucharist were universal before the reformation; there were however many sects with differing beliefs that are not covered here. The current title is meant to cover the content found within the subsection in its current form. -- Zfish118 ( talk) 15:40, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
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I believe in order to maintain a WP:NPOV that we simply use the title headers "Views" and not say that one or the other group is a "Real Presence" or not. Quite simply, a Catholic does NOT think consubstantiation is "Real Presence" and the Reformed thinks Catholic transubstantiation is FAR from Biblical doctrine of "Real Presence". See https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/historys-biggest-food-fight as an example of Reformed views. Dr. Ryan E. ( talk) 09:54, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Citations do not support your claims Ryan E.. This article authored by Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr., D.D., M.Div. (though he favors the Reformed real spiritual presence position himself) explains the memoralist position clearly in the Memorialism section and says It maintains that there is no real presence of Christ at the Lord's Table, but the Meal is only a memorial of the atonement purchased by Christ (Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:23-26). They assert that the bread and wine remain as bread and wine at the Meal. [4] Stop lumping it in together with views of the real presence because it's not, but exactly the opposite. desmay ( talk) 17:15, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Oh, it's most commonly called the memoralist position not the ordinance position so I've fixed that too. Stop changing this around unless other Wiki editors agree with you, which they're currently not doing. desmay ( talk) 17:25, 28 March 2020 (UTC)
Elizium23, I don't understand what you're trying to achieve here. It seems you have a bit of WP:OWN and are pushing a specific POV. Particularly you should look here as The Gospel Coalition is run by a council of qualified pastors and not a blog any more than the following sources on this page are:
As you can see, these are just some of the sources used in this article! And you claim that mine is not a reliable source. Elizium, you said I don't know why you are talking about "Full communion" and "List of Christian denominations by number of members" here on this talk page.
and I gave my reason this is slightly off topic. I have noticed a bias against Protestantism here on Wikpedia. Just taking a look at the
. I would say let's drop that. However you said Now you are talking about Zwingli and I never brought it up
, but you reverted my edit and this is talking about the POV of THIS article to which I gave a defense of my edits: If edits to the article are you claiming the facts aren't in alignment with the article...
which is on topic because you said there was nothing like what you refer to in that article
. Which I assume means the in the edits you reverted. Even though you gave a completely different reason for reverting the edit (that it was not a
WP:RS). Very confusing, which is the reason? My text not matching the article or it not being reliable? I have given a defense against both accusations.
Dr. Ryan E. (
talk)
15:19, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Please stop talking about...you've wandered into WP:NOTFORUM and are now stating your opinion about my opinion, rather than my suggestion about improving both articles. Dr. Ryan E. ( talk) 23:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
There are many non-Christian editors out there who edit articles like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Gospel, Biblical reliability, but a lot of Early Fathers and controversial (within Christianity) articles are NOT POV checked.
The proposed lede suggests that the Real Presence doctrine is a "problem" and that there are "contradictions". I don't see the need for introducing such controversy in the first paragraph. Elizium23 ( talk) 17:00, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Anupam, surely by a simple misunderstanding, has removed the text of an agreed statement by official Anglican and Catholic delegations on what the doctrine of transubstantiation really means, and has thus treated as incontrovertible Losch's contrary account of transubstantiation, which is explicitly contradicted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I didn't quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church, preferring in the context to quote the inter-Church statement. In my poor opinion, what should be deleted is Losch's inaccurate statement: did he know better than an Anglican+Catholic joint body (not to speak of the Catholic Church itself) what transubstantiation is? Bealtainemí ( talk) 20:25, 1 August 2020 (UTC)