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Just a few of the examples of bias and other problems in the proposed change:
This isn't a close call. It's not something that could go either way. You are directly and explicitly writing Argentine propaganda in Wikipedia's voice. Explicitly because you're using the Argentine government as your source. There is absolutely no way I could ever accept any part of the edit as being in any way acceptable.
Finally, in response to this edit summary, this title has been long subject to discussion, because it's a difficult event to discribe succinctly. There was a previous title ("Re-establishment of British rule on the Falkland Islands"), but when we had discussion, the Argentine editors in the discussion felt that this one was better, and I and others did not object to it. Kahastok talk 21:44, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
There are plenty of reliable sources around that can back the various claims. There are also plenty of less reliable sources out there. I think a lot of these discussions could easily be avoided by sticking strictly to the wp policy on reliable sources, even if that means having to reference every second sentence. That means govt publications should be avoided as should some other sources that look informative but are really just original research. (I have recently removed a couple of those). If the OR citations are helpful, as many are, we can keep them in the article by adding them to external links. Sticking strictly to policy will also involve weeding out a lot of weaseling, synthesing as well as plain biased language. There is far too much agenda pushing from both sides. If an editors position is correct the evidence, correctly presented, is all that is needed. This is an encyclopedia: it is our job to present the evidence in as neutral a way as is possible, and not to interpret it. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 04:07, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
An example of why you, Kahostok, are treading on very thin ice is the way you, in today's edit, that you dismiss the Argentine govt source as propaganda, which is a blatant POV. It should not be used because it is primary evidence, which is no different from many UK govt sources being used on Falklands articles. This is wp policy and policy breaches do not require consensus to be changed, which I am sure you know. I note from all the talk page discussion on these Falkland articles that there is a pattern of concern being raised about the neutrality of these Falkland articles going back many years, sometimes by experienced editors such as Langus and Jay D. Easy. You would achieve your aim much more easily if you stuck to presenting the evidence rather than telling others what it means. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 04:41, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Treat with care: I am glad we agree. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 23:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I have never said I want that or any of the recent additions put in (if you refer to the additions by the presumably Argentine editor). What i want is for those additions to be mentioned on this talk page first and then, if suitable, removed or changed. They were inserted in good faith and deserved better than a blunt reversal with the editor being accused of being a propagandist. Even if it is tedious to do so that effort should always be made. I have "effectively claimed" nothing of the sort - any belief otherwise is entirely your assumption. this gets back to what I see as your sometimes overly enthusiastic curt dismissal of detail you disagree with. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 23:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Roger I'm afraid it's you who are reading on rather thin ice. Whilst I might agree that some of the older sources used in the article could do with being replaced by more authoritative sources, which is something I'd be happy to do, what you are doing is converting an article that was neutral in tone to one that reflects a major POV. Argentine government sources are problematic for their partisan nature and for the fact they contain myth presented as fact. One of those would be the expulsion myth or the claim≠ of a violent expulsion of the garrison, which even Guatafson who is pro-Argentine dismisses as myth. I just have to ask were you aware of that, ie that authoritative academic sources dismiss what the Argentine Government claims? ×I would suggest that you stop edit warring, calm down and discuss matters. W C M email 09:14, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
We agree on the need to upgrade sources. I am puzzled at why you assume I am trying to turn a so-called neutral article into one with an Argentine slant. In answer to your question about my awareness of quality of Argentine govt publications (in fact almost anything published in Argentina), the simpler answer is, er, Yes, I am aware. Before reading this latest post I had just spent a painful hour ploughing through Falklands or Malvinas: Myths & facts by Manuel Pedro Peña. But that is not and never has been the reason for my concerns. It is the way we treat them that is the problem. It is not up to us to tell readers that Argentine sources are propaganda, even if they are. It is the way we edit and comment on, the various Falkland articles, not necessarily what information is supplied. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 23:34, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Is there currently a rule that we do not use any sources published by the UK or Argentine govts? If not then should we make it a consensus rule? That might seem unfair to some of us who think the problem is entirely on the Argentinian side, but it does at least remove any evidence of possible bias. I have no problem using only top notch reliable sources as defined by WP. It would be good if it were only academic but that won't always be possible -- there are quality non-academic sources and, as mentioned above, there are academic sources that are suspect. I have also seen what appear to be very useful OR sites that contain detail that I have not found elsewhere such as [1]. To keep that information then we would have to incorporate it in a different way rather than using it as a RS2, which in this example is how it is used in this article. BTW, I did not read the above post by Sietecolores as comparing Argentine govt sources with all UK sources. He seemed to be comparing Argentine govt and UK govt sources. Is this an example of being over sensitive and always assuming every editor who posts a contrary opinion is in the pay of the Argentine ministry of propaganda? Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 05:45, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
“ | On that date the Argentine authorities immediately demanded the unjustified aggression carried out in peacetime and friendship between the two nations, demand that has continued to be expressed diplomatically as of today. | ” |
I note with interest that you have ceased to defend the edit discussed in this section, and also that you have now disclaimed most of it. Given that there is clearly no consensus for it, and given its strong bias, I will remove the text back to the most recent consensus version. I suggest that proposals for improvement in this area be made on talk and that we discuss them, and put them into the article once consensus is reached. The slow-motion edit war in the background is not necessary or beneficial. Kahastok talk 21:43, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
References
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cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
I have always found the title of this page strange: "Reassertion" of British sovereignty over the Falkland Islands (1833)... this is sort of the only WP article with such strange wording. What was re-establish was it rule or sovereignity, old sovereignity is so far I am concerned no clear issue as it was disputed even back in the 18th century, so how can you re-establish something that was not [beyond dubt] yours? Correct me if I am wrong. Dentren | Talk 18:50, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted wholesale a series of POV changes.
1. The reference to Weddel is incorrect, his book wasn't published till after the Treaty of Friendship in 1825.
2. The claim that the Treaty of Friendship in 1825 was recognition of Argentine sovereignty is purely invented POV propaganda. In fact, as part of the treaty negotiations the British required each state in Argentina to define it's territory in detail. Ignacio Nunez did this for the Republic of Buenos Aires and at no point is the Falklands mentioned.
3. Repeat of the myth that Jewett was sent, this is controversial and many scholars doubt that this was the case.
4. The so-called extract from the Times is in fact a Photoshop montage. In reality the article was a minor footnote on Page 2 of the Times under the theatre section. By the time it was published in the UK a year after the event, Mason (Jewett's replacement) had left some 6 months earlier and to say the British were ignorant of this, belies the fact that 40-50 British whalers were routinely in the islands regularly reporting back to the UK.
5. I've seen the Sarratea claim before, its bogus, Sarratea was appointed after Jewett had left. In fact, it's difficult to suggest which Government may have sent Jewett, if any since there were over 20 governments that year (3 in one day). It's known as one of the most anarchic years in Argentine history - the country fell apart.
6. The Argentine Government never expressed any concern over seal hunting, the only person to do so was Vernet who claimed all the seals were his.
7. Jewett actually arrived in October, only putting into the islands because his ship was damaged in a storm.
These claims are from Argentine revisionist sources, who have already been declared as unreliable both in an arbcom case and at WP:RSN. W C M email 12:07, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
I moved it earlier, but was reverted. There's no ambiguity in the title, so the disambiguating qualifier is unneeded. The other supposedly ambiguous articles are not referred to as the "reassertion of British sovereignty" in their articles. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 02:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
"topics could be confused" is not the same as "title is ambiguous". The other articles did not mention "assert" at all. The current "disambiguation" at the base name is just a list of articles on related topics, not a list of topics that could have had (or been referred to by) the title. But that information, is true, could be added to those articles. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Today's revert - see talk here Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 22:35, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The United Provinces in its 1831 configuration is the predessesor of "Argentina" as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain" is the one for the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland".
Essentially the stress in that United Provinces in its 1831 configuration would very different from Argentina is a classical British-POV trope that ultimately seek to claim that "Argentina did not exist" back then. Wikipedia should clarify the matter in that regard rather than contribute to specific POVs. Dentren | Talk 06:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
User:ReggNichols is attempting to edit war this into the article.
I do not think it is appropriate because this section is attempting to give background to the events specifically surrounding the switch from Argentine control to British control in 1833. It is not a general history of the Falkland Islands.
The fact of the prior British settlement is significant to this background. However, details of what the Spanish may have done in the period immediately after 1774 is not so clearly significant. The significant background on the Argentine side is the fact of the establishment of the settlement by Luis Vernet.
I would also contend that the proposed text is biased, emphasising irrelevances (such as the number of Spanish governors) in apparent attempt to bolster the Argentine argument by proxy. I thus oppose its inclusion.
I do not necessarily oppose a more neutral mention in context of the French and Spanish colonists. But that should be a mention, not a paragraph like this. Kahastok talk 16:36, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
The paragraph is shorter than both, the one describing British departure, and the Argentine settling attempt. Is already a summarized extract from a reputable source, the official British historian Lawrence Freedman. Since there's a mention to sealers and whalers activity in that period, the presence of the Spanish outpost should be also relevant. If the number of commanders appointed is an issue, I agree to leave it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReggNichols ( talk • contribs) 17:12, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Reassertion of British sovereignty over the Falkland Islands (1833) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives:
1,
2Auto-archiving period: 90 days
![]() |
![]() | A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the On this day section on January 2, 2010, January 3, 2011, January 3, 2013, and January 3, 2020. |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Just a few of the examples of bias and other problems in the proposed change:
This isn't a close call. It's not something that could go either way. You are directly and explicitly writing Argentine propaganda in Wikipedia's voice. Explicitly because you're using the Argentine government as your source. There is absolutely no way I could ever accept any part of the edit as being in any way acceptable.
Finally, in response to this edit summary, this title has been long subject to discussion, because it's a difficult event to discribe succinctly. There was a previous title ("Re-establishment of British rule on the Falkland Islands"), but when we had discussion, the Argentine editors in the discussion felt that this one was better, and I and others did not object to it. Kahastok talk 21:44, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
There are plenty of reliable sources around that can back the various claims. There are also plenty of less reliable sources out there. I think a lot of these discussions could easily be avoided by sticking strictly to the wp policy on reliable sources, even if that means having to reference every second sentence. That means govt publications should be avoided as should some other sources that look informative but are really just original research. (I have recently removed a couple of those). If the OR citations are helpful, as many are, we can keep them in the article by adding them to external links. Sticking strictly to policy will also involve weeding out a lot of weaseling, synthesing as well as plain biased language. There is far too much agenda pushing from both sides. If an editors position is correct the evidence, correctly presented, is all that is needed. This is an encyclopedia: it is our job to present the evidence in as neutral a way as is possible, and not to interpret it. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 04:07, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
An example of why you, Kahostok, are treading on very thin ice is the way you, in today's edit, that you dismiss the Argentine govt source as propaganda, which is a blatant POV. It should not be used because it is primary evidence, which is no different from many UK govt sources being used on Falklands articles. This is wp policy and policy breaches do not require consensus to be changed, which I am sure you know. I note from all the talk page discussion on these Falkland articles that there is a pattern of concern being raised about the neutrality of these Falkland articles going back many years, sometimes by experienced editors such as Langus and Jay D. Easy. You would achieve your aim much more easily if you stuck to presenting the evidence rather than telling others what it means. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 04:41, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Treat with care: I am glad we agree. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 23:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
I have never said I want that or any of the recent additions put in (if you refer to the additions by the presumably Argentine editor). What i want is for those additions to be mentioned on this talk page first and then, if suitable, removed or changed. They were inserted in good faith and deserved better than a blunt reversal with the editor being accused of being a propagandist. Even if it is tedious to do so that effort should always be made. I have "effectively claimed" nothing of the sort - any belief otherwise is entirely your assumption. this gets back to what I see as your sometimes overly enthusiastic curt dismissal of detail you disagree with. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 23:15, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Roger I'm afraid it's you who are reading on rather thin ice. Whilst I might agree that some of the older sources used in the article could do with being replaced by more authoritative sources, which is something I'd be happy to do, what you are doing is converting an article that was neutral in tone to one that reflects a major POV. Argentine government sources are problematic for their partisan nature and for the fact they contain myth presented as fact. One of those would be the expulsion myth or the claim≠ of a violent expulsion of the garrison, which even Guatafson who is pro-Argentine dismisses as myth. I just have to ask were you aware of that, ie that authoritative academic sources dismiss what the Argentine Government claims? ×I would suggest that you stop edit warring, calm down and discuss matters. W C M email 09:14, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
We agree on the need to upgrade sources. I am puzzled at why you assume I am trying to turn a so-called neutral article into one with an Argentine slant. In answer to your question about my awareness of quality of Argentine govt publications (in fact almost anything published in Argentina), the simpler answer is, er, Yes, I am aware. Before reading this latest post I had just spent a painful hour ploughing through Falklands or Malvinas: Myths & facts by Manuel Pedro Peña. But that is not and never has been the reason for my concerns. It is the way we treat them that is the problem. It is not up to us to tell readers that Argentine sources are propaganda, even if they are. It is the way we edit and comment on, the various Falkland articles, not necessarily what information is supplied. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 23:34, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Is there currently a rule that we do not use any sources published by the UK or Argentine govts? If not then should we make it a consensus rule? That might seem unfair to some of us who think the problem is entirely on the Argentinian side, but it does at least remove any evidence of possible bias. I have no problem using only top notch reliable sources as defined by WP. It would be good if it were only academic but that won't always be possible -- there are quality non-academic sources and, as mentioned above, there are academic sources that are suspect. I have also seen what appear to be very useful OR sites that contain detail that I have not found elsewhere such as [1]. To keep that information then we would have to incorporate it in a different way rather than using it as a RS2, which in this example is how it is used in this article. BTW, I did not read the above post by Sietecolores as comparing Argentine govt sources with all UK sources. He seemed to be comparing Argentine govt and UK govt sources. Is this an example of being over sensitive and always assuming every editor who posts a contrary opinion is in the pay of the Argentine ministry of propaganda? Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 05:45, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
“ | On that date the Argentine authorities immediately demanded the unjustified aggression carried out in peacetime and friendship between the two nations, demand that has continued to be expressed diplomatically as of today. | ” |
I note with interest that you have ceased to defend the edit discussed in this section, and also that you have now disclaimed most of it. Given that there is clearly no consensus for it, and given its strong bias, I will remove the text back to the most recent consensus version. I suggest that proposals for improvement in this area be made on talk and that we discuss them, and put them into the article once consensus is reached. The slow-motion edit war in the background is not necessary or beneficial. Kahastok talk 21:43, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
I have always found the title of this page strange: "Reassertion" of British sovereignty over the Falkland Islands (1833)... this is sort of the only WP article with such strange wording. What was re-establish was it rule or sovereignity, old sovereignity is so far I am concerned no clear issue as it was disputed even back in the 18th century, so how can you re-establish something that was not [beyond dubt] yours? Correct me if I am wrong. Dentren | Talk 18:50, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I have reverted wholesale a series of POV changes.
1. The reference to Weddel is incorrect, his book wasn't published till after the Treaty of Friendship in 1825.
2. The claim that the Treaty of Friendship in 1825 was recognition of Argentine sovereignty is purely invented POV propaganda. In fact, as part of the treaty negotiations the British required each state in Argentina to define it's territory in detail. Ignacio Nunez did this for the Republic of Buenos Aires and at no point is the Falklands mentioned.
3. Repeat of the myth that Jewett was sent, this is controversial and many scholars doubt that this was the case.
4. The so-called extract from the Times is in fact a Photoshop montage. In reality the article was a minor footnote on Page 2 of the Times under the theatre section. By the time it was published in the UK a year after the event, Mason (Jewett's replacement) had left some 6 months earlier and to say the British were ignorant of this, belies the fact that 40-50 British whalers were routinely in the islands regularly reporting back to the UK.
5. I've seen the Sarratea claim before, its bogus, Sarratea was appointed after Jewett had left. In fact, it's difficult to suggest which Government may have sent Jewett, if any since there were over 20 governments that year (3 in one day). It's known as one of the most anarchic years in Argentine history - the country fell apart.
6. The Argentine Government never expressed any concern over seal hunting, the only person to do so was Vernet who claimed all the seals were his.
7. Jewett actually arrived in October, only putting into the islands because his ship was damaged in a storm.
These claims are from Argentine revisionist sources, who have already been declared as unreliable both in an arbcom case and at WP:RSN. W C M email 12:07, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
I moved it earlier, but was reverted. There's no ambiguity in the title, so the disambiguating qualifier is unneeded. The other supposedly ambiguous articles are not referred to as the "reassertion of British sovereignty" in their articles. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 02:03, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
"topics could be confused" is not the same as "title is ambiguous". The other articles did not mention "assert" at all. The current "disambiguation" at the base name is just a list of articles on related topics, not a list of topics that could have had (or been referred to by) the title. But that information, is true, could be added to those articles. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 15:10, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
Today's revert - see talk here Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute. Roger 8 Roger ( talk) 22:35, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
The United Provinces in its 1831 configuration is the predessesor of "Argentina" as the "United Kingdom of Great Britain" is the one for the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland".
Essentially the stress in that United Provinces in its 1831 configuration would very different from Argentina is a classical British-POV trope that ultimately seek to claim that "Argentina did not exist" back then. Wikipedia should clarify the matter in that regard rather than contribute to specific POVs. Dentren | Talk 06:22, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
User:ReggNichols is attempting to edit war this into the article.
I do not think it is appropriate because this section is attempting to give background to the events specifically surrounding the switch from Argentine control to British control in 1833. It is not a general history of the Falkland Islands.
The fact of the prior British settlement is significant to this background. However, details of what the Spanish may have done in the period immediately after 1774 is not so clearly significant. The significant background on the Argentine side is the fact of the establishment of the settlement by Luis Vernet.
I would also contend that the proposed text is biased, emphasising irrelevances (such as the number of Spanish governors) in apparent attempt to bolster the Argentine argument by proxy. I thus oppose its inclusion.
I do not necessarily oppose a more neutral mention in context of the French and Spanish colonists. But that should be a mention, not a paragraph like this. Kahastok talk 16:36, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
The paragraph is shorter than both, the one describing British departure, and the Argentine settling attempt. Is already a summarized extract from a reputable source, the official British historian Lawrence Freedman. Since there's a mention to sealers and whalers activity in that period, the presence of the Spanish outpost should be also relevant. If the number of commanders appointed is an issue, I agree to leave it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ReggNichols ( talk • contribs) 17:12, 6 November 2021 (UTC)