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UPDATE JAN 25 2010
I have added the following info:
In addition to educational TV work, Keene and his co-author, Julian Simpole, were both voice over artists in the UK independent film,
The Zombie Diaries. Keene played a reporter, and Simpole a member of the UK Government.
Can someone please add the imdb link to Keene's imdb page? I am not sure how to add this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.181.50 ( talk) 04:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
There is nothing to support this at the IMDB page for zombie diaries, and every reference to his alledged voice over work appears to have been copied from this article. Additionally, the user who added it, Mike Bartlett, appears to have added credible sounding but unverifiable and possibly fabricated information to the article on Schrodinger's cat. The zombie diaries contribution appears to be in the same vein.
Also, "Michael Bartlett" is listed as the producer of "the zombie diaries" at IMDB.
Hello - I am in indeed the writer, director of The Zombie Diaries. The information on Raymond Keene and Julian's voice-over has been sent to IMDb and will appear in 2-3 weeks. This is not malicious information!!!
Please contact Raymond on RDKOBE at aol dot com if you require proof until the imdb info goes live. When it does I will be putting the reference into the Wikipedia page. Raymond and Julian agreed to help out on the film after I helped them technically with the DVD remaster of "12 best games of chess" MikeBartlett (Keene's email obscured from spam bots by Rocksong 11:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC))
Guys - can you put The Zombie Diaries info back in - it is correct and is reflected on IMDB. Ray did voice-over work with his friend, Julian Simpole, who co-authored the book 'petrosian v the elite' with him. They are both good friends of mine. - Michael Bartlett. Director of The Zombie Diaries and Timeless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.181.50 ( talk) 06:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
This is true, Raymond Keene is known to have defrauded his brother-in-law and several partners of tens of thousands of dollars and sabotaging their business.
As a chess second he has also failed to perform on a number of occassions.
Finally some of his books have been ghostwritten by others.
This issues need to be covered (with references) by someone who has through knowledge of Raymond Keene, although there are articles in chess magazines I believe.
Currently the article reads like a thinly veiled attempt at self-promotion.
-- I 14:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
For petes sake, who wrote this, Keene himself! Readers desiring an insight into the real Raymond Keene should take a look at the following http://www.chesscenter.com/kingpin/Kingpin/raylevy.htm I agree, that the truth would lay somewhere in between these two accounts, but a little more research would show that the latter article is much closer than this waffle that Wikipedia has been duped into as allowing as a factual account of Raymond Keene. Wikipedia is much better than this! Please fix this gross error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.203.244 ( talk • contribs)
A person asserts that Raymond Keene is universally despised but provides no evidence. And, by looking at the activity of chessgames.com, the opposite seems to be the case.
There are accusations concerning fraud but no one here has given an example where Mr. Keene has been convicted of said offense.
No evidence provided of the allegation that some of his books are ghost written; and even if some were, so what?
No evidence provided how Mr. Keene "failed" as a chess second.
A highly respected grandmaster and chess writer, Larry Evans, seems not to have a problem with Mr. Keene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.38.205.230 ( talk • contribs)
Hmm, there's been a lot of edits by an anonymous editor lately, who seems to know a lot of detail about Keene's career... Rocksong 23:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Guys,
Someone keeps posting nonsense about 'allegations of fraud' which link to articles which themselves are opinions only. I can't allow this libelous material to keep appearing. I have been contacted by Mr Keene who has expressed his concern over this, and I will not allow Wikipedia to be subject to any more libelous material. Anyone who continues to do so will have their material deleted.
-Mike Bartltt MikeBartlett 09:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, he is employed as a columnist by The Times (that in itself shows respect for his chess knowledge), was recently interviewed by Garry Kasparov for his new book "Revolution in the 70s" on Opening Theory (respect for his chess analysis from the greatest world champion ever), and is widely respected throughout the chess community which can be seen on the website chessgames.com where he regularly contributes to games and answers questions from the general public. MikeBartlett 00:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the allegations, I'd rather see a response from Keene, somewhere on the web other than Wikipedia where other people can't edit it (such as his home page or one of his columns). Then the article could say something like (taking the Levy issue as an example):
"David Levy alleges that he was defrauded by Keene (then link to Levy's allegations). But Keene responds that he has done nothing wrong and remains widely respected in the chess community (then a link to Keenes' response)."
That I think would be balanced. Honestly I have no idea of the truth or otherwise of the allegations and I certainly have nothing against Keene. But he does arouse a lot of strong opinions in the chess community and the article cannot simply ignore the controversies he's been involved in (not just the Levy issue). Rocksong 02:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I will speak to Wikipedia and Mr Keene about this, to see if this is suitable. MikeBartlett 17:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Nobody would wish Ray Keene to be unjustly accused of wrong doing. Some of the allegations made are certainly noteworthy, and with referencing, and careful maintained neutrality, they seem to have a place in this article. If a balanced picture is maintained this does not reduce to slagging off Ray.Threatening to delete users material is not appropriate behaviour on wikipedia MikeBartlett, and I would ask you to refrain from that.-- ZincBelief 11:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is now grossly unbalanced, with all sorts of rumor and hearsay being passed off as encyclopedic. Let me just add my name to those on the chess wikiproject who make the same argument. Academic38 ( talk) 08:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Could you direct our attention to exactly what you consider to be "rumor and hearsay"? -- Fewwords ( talk) 20:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Pretty much everything in "Other controversies" is so-and-so "alleges" with non- reliable sources such as "Free the Henderson 1" the only source. Academic38 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC).
This is one of the most ridiculously biased pages I have ever read on Wikipedia. Since when are articles approached from the point of view that the person is a criminal and the biography should convict him? The critical point here is not whether or not these allegations are true. Maybe they are all true (but I doubt it). Don't you realize that you can take anybody and make a big list of controversy after controversy, and allegations, and hear-say, and criticisms? My point is, that somebody who honestly does not know who Ray Keene is and came to this page to learn would end up thinking that GM Keene is the most scurrilous villain that the chess world has ever seen, which is false. Daniel Freeman ( talk) 21:20, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
OK, so who is/was more "scurrilous"? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. He really is a slimy toad. To read about these episodes in detail is to be nauseated.
What strikes me about this page is that everything which on every other wikipedia page would be 'fact with footnote', is here presented as mere 'allegation', even the most evident facts, e.g. the vast plagiarism. It's not a matter of one or two cases, or allegations of a few. These things are as much fact as anything on wikipedia. Easily checkable by anyone who cares to. It's not opinion. Or is Keene's lawyer allowed to threaten the truth out of this page also? The positive tone on Keene's chessgames page (from which he deletes critical comments) is apparently a useful fact about Keene, but evident facts are reduced to mere accusations by enemies. The whole thing is entirely devoid of reality. In the Keene universe, no critic can state an 'undeniable fact' - Keene just bald-facedly denies it, in the face of all the evidence. (Nice work if you can get it.) As has also been repeatedly documented. I'm not sure how he's been able to get away with so much for so long. By being so extravagant about it, I suppose - people who don't know the story - like the unfortunate lawyer above - wouldn't even suspect the scale of lying, cheating, plagiarism etc 110.20.197.87 ( talk) 02:08, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
There has been some question about whether some of the sources that have been to justify recent additions of negative claims qualify as reliable sources for a biography of a living person. I'm soliciting other editors' opinions, especially in three cases that are under scutiny:
In my opinion, blogs are almost never suitable for critical use in a BLP, and this includes Greengard. I don't know anything more about Private Eye than is in the wikipedia article. My inclination from this is that Private Eye is not a suitable source for a wikipedia BLP. I also don't know anything more about Kingpin than what is in the wikipedia article. It may be a reliable source, or that determination might need to be made based on the specific claim that is made in the source. What do you think? Quale ( talk) 23:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Mig Greengard is or was head of some important chess publications, so I think his blog is quite reliable myself. Kingpin, a good solid magazine, with good solid writing. Never been sued as far as I know. -- ZincBelief ( talk) 22:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
It isn't a question of "respectable" sources, or of whether you personally believe them. I just spent time searching premium Nexis for the Mohammed Amin quote that Kingpin says was in the Sunday Times in March 1990. There is nothing like "18,000 on taxis" or "agreement with GLC" or "World Championship match was a complete shambles" in any English language news source from March 1986 through December 1991, nor any article *about* Keene (certainly plenty by him) in March 1990. Therefore I deleted that claim in the article and am certain that Kingpin is not a reliable source. Academic38 ( talk) 03:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Having made enquiries the Kingpin article used material written by Nick of the Sunday Times for the article in the Sunday Times magazine, but not published in the Sunday Times. As such I would propose resinstating the source and it's claim.-- ZincBelief ( talk) 21:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Academic removed the John Henderson source, I can't understand that having read it. His claims are quite blantantly triplicated on that article by professional accredited journalists. (Perhaps the article should be reworded to reflect that) If a controversy is supported only by the complainant then it is surely the final one on the list, by Lars from Sweden, that we should remove. -- ZincBelief ( talk) 20:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, if you reflect some independent sources, I would not be opposed to leaving the Henderson bit in the article (or in the proposed Braingames article). But you can't just assert the sources exist; you've got to produce them. Academic38 ( talk) 20:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
They're there on the site for all to see :) but for Lars I don't know if there are such independents...-- ZincBelief ( talk) 20:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Some have complained about the negative material added to the article, it is time also to look at the existing material. A brief inspection by myself led me to notice that the greater part of it was unsourced and quite possibly POV. This of course means that most of it could be deleted. However, most of it probably just needs sourcing, although I rather expect some adjectives will have to go. A lot of work here for those who want to do it.-- ZincBelief ( talk) 21:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The article contains this nugget:
Keene's achievement of his first Grandmaster norm, at the Nice Olympiad of 1974, was controversial: having arrived with five rounds to go at a position where a draw in the final round (against his friend Ulf Andersson) would secure the norm, he secretly agreed with his team captain that he would not play any more games until the last. Naturally this disadvantaged the team, since Keene was the strongest player but also adversely affected his teammate William Hartston personally, since Hartston, the number two, had to play a succession of strong opponents in Keene's place. This effectively cost Hartston any chance of obtaining a Grandmaster norm himself.
The source given for this claim is the "Raymundo Contra Mundum" article in Kingpin. I question whether that publication is a reliable source. This article seems particularly suspect, since as far as I can see it doesn't list its author. (Fear of a defamation lawsuit, perhaps?) Moreover, the statement is ridiculous. In the first place, it is not terribly shocking for someone, having achieved a grandmaster norm in an Olympiad, to sit out the remaining games. Keene is by no means the first person to do this. Second, how did playing a series of strong players "effectively cost Hartston any chance of obtaining a Grandmaster norm"? It didn't. To state the obvious, if one does well in a series of games against grandmasters (the kind of people you are apt to encounter on first board at an Olympiad), one may well obtain a grandmaster norm (as Keene himself had just done playing first board). I wouldn't be surprised if playing on Board 1 increased Hartston's chances of obtaining a GM norm; it surely didn't make it impossible for him to do so. Krakatoa ( talk) 04:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Yet another omission in this article is the large number of organisations that Ray Keene has created. The list should contain some of the following as I understand it: The English Chess Association, The Commonwealth Chess (Womens) Association, The Brain Trust, The World Memory Council, The World Mind Mapping Council, The World Speed Reading Council, The World Creativity Council, Memory Sports UK, The World IQ Council. MSO and Braingames are mentioned already - not sure about Einstein Group.-- ZincBelief ( talk) 17:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The World Memory Championship is a very big deal, and I noticed that page makes no mention of Mr. Keene nor does this article mention the World Memory Championship. I would fix it myself but I am unclear on the relationships between Keene and the World Memory Council and the World Memory Championship, but I do know that Keene is currently the organizer and front-man to the memory championship. Daniel Freeman ( talk) 21:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Two sections of this entry have been removed by a user without prior discussion, including one on self-plagiarism removed on the grounds "an author cannot plagiarise himself as a matter of law, so those complaints aren't noteworthy in a WP:BLP".
As the section didn't claim it was a matter of law, this is an irrelevant consideration, and certainly not one which should have necessitated the section's abrupt removal.
What is clear is that Mr Keene's reuse of old work is a matter of controversy in the chess world, and has been for a long time: it's also incontrovertibly true that he does this and has done for a very long time. It is material to Mr Keene's history as a writer and journalist.
I have reinstated the section in slightly altered form and moved it to "Controversies". I have also deleted the term "self-plagiarism".
I would appreciate it if that section was not removed again without prior discussion: it's precipitate action like that which causes resentment and unpleasantness in Wikipedia editing.
I have also reinstated the section dealing with the non-response of editors. I can imagine no good reason why this was removed, and none, good or otherwise, has been presented. The matter is wholly factual and entirely relevant. Again, please do not remove it again without prior discussion.
I have no desire to get into a controversy with anyone over this entry, but the way to avoid such a controversy is to discuss it before removing material upon which other people may have expended considerable time and effort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fewwords ( talk • contribs) 13:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, it could just as easily be that this is one subject on which I am well-informed. I am not aware that I am obliged to edit more than one page on Wikipedia (though in the past I have in fact done so). Would it be all right if I questioned your motives?
Removing isn't equivalent to adding: it doesn't involve destroying other people's work. You can remove things without notice, but it causes conflict and should be avoided if possible.
In your posting you make some very strange claims.
In what was is it selective? Which other quotes from that article would you like to include for balance?
Plagiarism exists regardless of whether legal action is subsequently taken and it has notning especially to do with whether the material is commercially sensitive. It's the passing-off of other people's work as your own which consistutes plagiarism, and that is what Keene is accused of, on quite a scale.
Do you really think so? When material has appeared elsewhere, a publication will normally say so, for good reasons. If you think the practice is uncontroversial, I would invite you to produce a reputable source that says so.
But even if you still, think so, it's clear that it is controversial. Because people take different views of a controversy, it doesn't cease to be a controversy. So let people see it, and decide. There is no reason for it to be hidden from Wikipedia readers. If you think that the practice is OK with you personally, then say so. That is very different from deciding that nobody else should consider it controversial.
Really? Could you show where he has done so, please? I think you may find that claim has been deleted. Even if it had not been, it is entirely unverified and unsourced and also absurd, since it wouldn't even be a defence against plagarism to say that you had the publisher's connivance in doing so.
So what you're doing here is relying on a deleted, unsourced and irrelevant claim as a defence against the publication of material that is rigorous in evidence and presentation and copiously sourced.
As the extent of the plagiarism alleged against Keene is of such proportions that Keene would consitute one of the most extensive plagiarists in British journalistic history, it's hard to see how this can possibly be true. Plagiarism is extremely serious for a journalist: we may refer to the opinion of the Times columnist Mr Oliver Kamm that if he engaged in it, he would lose his job.
In short, what Keene is accused of is very serious, very extensive and very well documented. Hiding it from Wikipedia readers is increasingly unjustifiable.
Fewwords ( talk) 07:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Although the material was in fact neither unsourced nor poorly sourced, which tends to take the point out of your point. Moreover the material is impeccably and authoritatively presented, has been referenced elsewhere and has been subject to no complaint or challenge.
Reviewing the discussion above, I find the following statement from yourself:
This does at least recognise that "trouble" does result from deleting stuff wholesale, which is why I raised this section of the Talk. I think Wikipedia works best as a collaborative rather than a confrontational operation, which is why I would have appreciated some explanation as to why the section on the non-response of editors has been inexplicably deleted.
Similarly the section on Keene's prodigious unacknowledged recycling of his own work, a remarkable practice even if we were to ignore the issue of copyright theft which it raises. I find that this is unilaterally designated non-controversial and deleted, by somebody who similarly argues that the plagiarism issue is over-stated (despite its huge scale) and that deleted, incomprehensible defences to accusations are to be given some kind of weight. I also notice, above, that there is scarcely, if at all, a Keene-critical source which has not at one time or another had its legitimacy questioned. Oddly though Daniel Freeman can post on here without anybody asking whether he has a working relationship with Keene. Curiouser and curiouser. Fewwords ( talk) 09:02, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Gee. It's quite amazing to see people violently opposing the appearance of the unvarnished truth on Keene's wikipedia page - in the interest of accurate information! The Keene strategy itself - just deny the facts until they give up and go away. Then carry on doing it. It's a mystery to me how Keene finds such defenders. Unless they are him. Who knows. Maybe they just don't know about the scale of Keene's misdemeanours. It just doesn't sound likely, people saying such awful things about a Pillar of the Establishment. Who are you gonna believe, R Keene MBE, founder of dozens of organizations with extremely impressive names, or a whining nobody? Well, cheers to you, Fewwords - someone who knows truth when he sees it, and cares when someone spits on it, indeed makes a career out of spitting on it. 110.20.197.87 ( talk) 02:26, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
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A large chunk of the Brain Games controversy rests on statements and articles written by David Levy. I question the reliability of this person as a referenced source. Obviously there was a bitter fall-out between the two in-laws around the Mind Sports Organisation and Brain Games. I cautiously suggest that points/issues raised by Levy should be cross-checked and verified by an independent source (that meets Wikipedia's threshold for being a trusted resource), with the aim of removing those points that cannot be independently corroborated. I realise these statements have been publicly available online for 16 years, but I also realise there's a factor of "he said, she said" going on, but here it seems one-sided, as if Levy's comments on the operations of a company he wasn't directly involved in are gospel.
I raise this concern now, as someone who has been following the ZX Spectrum Vega+ fiasco for about 18 months, where David Levy is right at the heart of it as chairman of Retro Computers Limited. The similarities of Levy's criticism of Keene 16 years ago and his criticisms of Paul Andrews (Shareholder and ex-Director of Retro Computers Limited) are noticeable. Both are accused of using the funds of one company to start another (Brain Games Ltd / Retro Games Ltd), both with the argument that the company Levy runs should have a shareholding in this newly formed company (Mind Sports Organisation Ltd / Retro Computers Ltd). In my personal opinion the statements from David Levy regarding Retro Computers Ltd are fabrications and distortions of a kernel of truth. And so I question the validity of his criticism against Keene that cannot be validated or confirmed by independent third-party trusted sources. Isofarro ( talk) 20:35, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm starting to list here trusted/reliable sources around Braingames, and it's organisation of the 2000 Braingames match. Isofarro ( talk) 07:31, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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UPDATE JAN 25 2010
I have added the following info:
In addition to educational TV work, Keene and his co-author, Julian Simpole, were both voice over artists in the UK independent film,
The Zombie Diaries. Keene played a reporter, and Simpole a member of the UK Government.
Can someone please add the imdb link to Keene's imdb page? I am not sure how to add this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.181.50 ( talk) 04:40, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
There is nothing to support this at the IMDB page for zombie diaries, and every reference to his alledged voice over work appears to have been copied from this article. Additionally, the user who added it, Mike Bartlett, appears to have added credible sounding but unverifiable and possibly fabricated information to the article on Schrodinger's cat. The zombie diaries contribution appears to be in the same vein.
Also, "Michael Bartlett" is listed as the producer of "the zombie diaries" at IMDB.
Hello - I am in indeed the writer, director of The Zombie Diaries. The information on Raymond Keene and Julian's voice-over has been sent to IMDb and will appear in 2-3 weeks. This is not malicious information!!!
Please contact Raymond on RDKOBE at aol dot com if you require proof until the imdb info goes live. When it does I will be putting the reference into the Wikipedia page. Raymond and Julian agreed to help out on the film after I helped them technically with the DVD remaster of "12 best games of chess" MikeBartlett (Keene's email obscured from spam bots by Rocksong 11:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC))
Guys - can you put The Zombie Diaries info back in - it is correct and is reflected on IMDB. Ray did voice-over work with his friend, Julian Simpole, who co-authored the book 'petrosian v the elite' with him. They are both good friends of mine. - Michael Bartlett. Director of The Zombie Diaries and Timeless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.119.181.50 ( talk) 06:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
This is true, Raymond Keene is known to have defrauded his brother-in-law and several partners of tens of thousands of dollars and sabotaging their business.
As a chess second he has also failed to perform on a number of occassions.
Finally some of his books have been ghostwritten by others.
This issues need to be covered (with references) by someone who has through knowledge of Raymond Keene, although there are articles in chess magazines I believe.
Currently the article reads like a thinly veiled attempt at self-promotion.
-- I 14:23, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
For petes sake, who wrote this, Keene himself! Readers desiring an insight into the real Raymond Keene should take a look at the following http://www.chesscenter.com/kingpin/Kingpin/raylevy.htm I agree, that the truth would lay somewhere in between these two accounts, but a little more research would show that the latter article is much closer than this waffle that Wikipedia has been duped into as allowing as a factual account of Raymond Keene. Wikipedia is much better than this! Please fix this gross error. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.134.203.244 ( talk • contribs)
A person asserts that Raymond Keene is universally despised but provides no evidence. And, by looking at the activity of chessgames.com, the opposite seems to be the case.
There are accusations concerning fraud but no one here has given an example where Mr. Keene has been convicted of said offense.
No evidence provided of the allegation that some of his books are ghost written; and even if some were, so what?
No evidence provided how Mr. Keene "failed" as a chess second.
A highly respected grandmaster and chess writer, Larry Evans, seems not to have a problem with Mr. Keene. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.38.205.230 ( talk • contribs)
Hmm, there's been a lot of edits by an anonymous editor lately, who seems to know a lot of detail about Keene's career... Rocksong 23:49, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Guys,
Someone keeps posting nonsense about 'allegations of fraud' which link to articles which themselves are opinions only. I can't allow this libelous material to keep appearing. I have been contacted by Mr Keene who has expressed his concern over this, and I will not allow Wikipedia to be subject to any more libelous material. Anyone who continues to do so will have their material deleted.
-Mike Bartltt MikeBartlett 09:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, he is employed as a columnist by The Times (that in itself shows respect for his chess knowledge), was recently interviewed by Garry Kasparov for his new book "Revolution in the 70s" on Opening Theory (respect for his chess analysis from the greatest world champion ever), and is widely respected throughout the chess community which can be seen on the website chessgames.com where he regularly contributes to games and answers questions from the general public. MikeBartlett 00:07, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the allegations, I'd rather see a response from Keene, somewhere on the web other than Wikipedia where other people can't edit it (such as his home page or one of his columns). Then the article could say something like (taking the Levy issue as an example):
"David Levy alleges that he was defrauded by Keene (then link to Levy's allegations). But Keene responds that he has done nothing wrong and remains widely respected in the chess community (then a link to Keenes' response)."
That I think would be balanced. Honestly I have no idea of the truth or otherwise of the allegations and I certainly have nothing against Keene. But he does arouse a lot of strong opinions in the chess community and the article cannot simply ignore the controversies he's been involved in (not just the Levy issue). Rocksong 02:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I will speak to Wikipedia and Mr Keene about this, to see if this is suitable. MikeBartlett 17:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Nobody would wish Ray Keene to be unjustly accused of wrong doing. Some of the allegations made are certainly noteworthy, and with referencing, and careful maintained neutrality, they seem to have a place in this article. If a balanced picture is maintained this does not reduce to slagging off Ray.Threatening to delete users material is not appropriate behaviour on wikipedia MikeBartlett, and I would ask you to refrain from that.-- ZincBelief 11:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
This article is now grossly unbalanced, with all sorts of rumor and hearsay being passed off as encyclopedic. Let me just add my name to those on the chess wikiproject who make the same argument. Academic38 ( talk) 08:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Could you direct our attention to exactly what you consider to be "rumor and hearsay"? -- Fewwords ( talk) 20:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Pretty much everything in "Other controversies" is so-and-so "alleges" with non- reliable sources such as "Free the Henderson 1" the only source. Academic38 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:28, 31 August 2009 (UTC).
This is one of the most ridiculously biased pages I have ever read on Wikipedia. Since when are articles approached from the point of view that the person is a criminal and the biography should convict him? The critical point here is not whether or not these allegations are true. Maybe they are all true (but I doubt it). Don't you realize that you can take anybody and make a big list of controversy after controversy, and allegations, and hear-say, and criticisms? My point is, that somebody who honestly does not know who Ray Keene is and came to this page to learn would end up thinking that GM Keene is the most scurrilous villain that the chess world has ever seen, which is false. Daniel Freeman ( talk) 21:20, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
OK, so who is/was more "scurrilous"? I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. He really is a slimy toad. To read about these episodes in detail is to be nauseated.
What strikes me about this page is that everything which on every other wikipedia page would be 'fact with footnote', is here presented as mere 'allegation', even the most evident facts, e.g. the vast plagiarism. It's not a matter of one or two cases, or allegations of a few. These things are as much fact as anything on wikipedia. Easily checkable by anyone who cares to. It's not opinion. Or is Keene's lawyer allowed to threaten the truth out of this page also? The positive tone on Keene's chessgames page (from which he deletes critical comments) is apparently a useful fact about Keene, but evident facts are reduced to mere accusations by enemies. The whole thing is entirely devoid of reality. In the Keene universe, no critic can state an 'undeniable fact' - Keene just bald-facedly denies it, in the face of all the evidence. (Nice work if you can get it.) As has also been repeatedly documented. I'm not sure how he's been able to get away with so much for so long. By being so extravagant about it, I suppose - people who don't know the story - like the unfortunate lawyer above - wouldn't even suspect the scale of lying, cheating, plagiarism etc 110.20.197.87 ( talk) 02:08, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
There has been some question about whether some of the sources that have been to justify recent additions of negative claims qualify as reliable sources for a biography of a living person. I'm soliciting other editors' opinions, especially in three cases that are under scutiny:
In my opinion, blogs are almost never suitable for critical use in a BLP, and this includes Greengard. I don't know anything more about Private Eye than is in the wikipedia article. My inclination from this is that Private Eye is not a suitable source for a wikipedia BLP. I also don't know anything more about Kingpin than what is in the wikipedia article. It may be a reliable source, or that determination might need to be made based on the specific claim that is made in the source. What do you think? Quale ( talk) 23:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Mig Greengard is or was head of some important chess publications, so I think his blog is quite reliable myself. Kingpin, a good solid magazine, with good solid writing. Never been sued as far as I know. -- ZincBelief ( talk) 22:55, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
It isn't a question of "respectable" sources, or of whether you personally believe them. I just spent time searching premium Nexis for the Mohammed Amin quote that Kingpin says was in the Sunday Times in March 1990. There is nothing like "18,000 on taxis" or "agreement with GLC" or "World Championship match was a complete shambles" in any English language news source from March 1986 through December 1991, nor any article *about* Keene (certainly plenty by him) in March 1990. Therefore I deleted that claim in the article and am certain that Kingpin is not a reliable source. Academic38 ( talk) 03:47, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Having made enquiries the Kingpin article used material written by Nick of the Sunday Times for the article in the Sunday Times magazine, but not published in the Sunday Times. As such I would propose resinstating the source and it's claim.-- ZincBelief ( talk) 21:38, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Academic removed the John Henderson source, I can't understand that having read it. His claims are quite blantantly triplicated on that article by professional accredited journalists. (Perhaps the article should be reworded to reflect that) If a controversy is supported only by the complainant then it is surely the final one on the list, by Lars from Sweden, that we should remove. -- ZincBelief ( talk) 20:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Yes, if you reflect some independent sources, I would not be opposed to leaving the Henderson bit in the article (or in the proposed Braingames article). But you can't just assert the sources exist; you've got to produce them. Academic38 ( talk) 20:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
They're there on the site for all to see :) but for Lars I don't know if there are such independents...-- ZincBelief ( talk) 20:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Some have complained about the negative material added to the article, it is time also to look at the existing material. A brief inspection by myself led me to notice that the greater part of it was unsourced and quite possibly POV. This of course means that most of it could be deleted. However, most of it probably just needs sourcing, although I rather expect some adjectives will have to go. A lot of work here for those who want to do it.-- ZincBelief ( talk) 21:39, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
The article contains this nugget:
Keene's achievement of his first Grandmaster norm, at the Nice Olympiad of 1974, was controversial: having arrived with five rounds to go at a position where a draw in the final round (against his friend Ulf Andersson) would secure the norm, he secretly agreed with his team captain that he would not play any more games until the last. Naturally this disadvantaged the team, since Keene was the strongest player but also adversely affected his teammate William Hartston personally, since Hartston, the number two, had to play a succession of strong opponents in Keene's place. This effectively cost Hartston any chance of obtaining a Grandmaster norm himself.
The source given for this claim is the "Raymundo Contra Mundum" article in Kingpin. I question whether that publication is a reliable source. This article seems particularly suspect, since as far as I can see it doesn't list its author. (Fear of a defamation lawsuit, perhaps?) Moreover, the statement is ridiculous. In the first place, it is not terribly shocking for someone, having achieved a grandmaster norm in an Olympiad, to sit out the remaining games. Keene is by no means the first person to do this. Second, how did playing a series of strong players "effectively cost Hartston any chance of obtaining a Grandmaster norm"? It didn't. To state the obvious, if one does well in a series of games against grandmasters (the kind of people you are apt to encounter on first board at an Olympiad), one may well obtain a grandmaster norm (as Keene himself had just done playing first board). I wouldn't be surprised if playing on Board 1 increased Hartston's chances of obtaining a GM norm; it surely didn't make it impossible for him to do so. Krakatoa ( talk) 04:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Yet another omission in this article is the large number of organisations that Ray Keene has created. The list should contain some of the following as I understand it: The English Chess Association, The Commonwealth Chess (Womens) Association, The Brain Trust, The World Memory Council, The World Mind Mapping Council, The World Speed Reading Council, The World Creativity Council, Memory Sports UK, The World IQ Council. MSO and Braingames are mentioned already - not sure about Einstein Group.-- ZincBelief ( talk) 17:18, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
The World Memory Championship is a very big deal, and I noticed that page makes no mention of Mr. Keene nor does this article mention the World Memory Championship. I would fix it myself but I am unclear on the relationships between Keene and the World Memory Council and the World Memory Championship, but I do know that Keene is currently the organizer and front-man to the memory championship. Daniel Freeman ( talk) 21:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
Two sections of this entry have been removed by a user without prior discussion, including one on self-plagiarism removed on the grounds "an author cannot plagiarise himself as a matter of law, so those complaints aren't noteworthy in a WP:BLP".
As the section didn't claim it was a matter of law, this is an irrelevant consideration, and certainly not one which should have necessitated the section's abrupt removal.
What is clear is that Mr Keene's reuse of old work is a matter of controversy in the chess world, and has been for a long time: it's also incontrovertibly true that he does this and has done for a very long time. It is material to Mr Keene's history as a writer and journalist.
I have reinstated the section in slightly altered form and moved it to "Controversies". I have also deleted the term "self-plagiarism".
I would appreciate it if that section was not removed again without prior discussion: it's precipitate action like that which causes resentment and unpleasantness in Wikipedia editing.
I have also reinstated the section dealing with the non-response of editors. I can imagine no good reason why this was removed, and none, good or otherwise, has been presented. The matter is wholly factual and entirely relevant. Again, please do not remove it again without prior discussion.
I have no desire to get into a controversy with anyone over this entry, but the way to avoid such a controversy is to discuss it before removing material upon which other people may have expended considerable time and effort. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fewwords ( talk • contribs) 13:09, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, it could just as easily be that this is one subject on which I am well-informed. I am not aware that I am obliged to edit more than one page on Wikipedia (though in the past I have in fact done so). Would it be all right if I questioned your motives?
Removing isn't equivalent to adding: it doesn't involve destroying other people's work. You can remove things without notice, but it causes conflict and should be avoided if possible.
In your posting you make some very strange claims.
In what was is it selective? Which other quotes from that article would you like to include for balance?
Plagiarism exists regardless of whether legal action is subsequently taken and it has notning especially to do with whether the material is commercially sensitive. It's the passing-off of other people's work as your own which consistutes plagiarism, and that is what Keene is accused of, on quite a scale.
Do you really think so? When material has appeared elsewhere, a publication will normally say so, for good reasons. If you think the practice is uncontroversial, I would invite you to produce a reputable source that says so.
But even if you still, think so, it's clear that it is controversial. Because people take different views of a controversy, it doesn't cease to be a controversy. So let people see it, and decide. There is no reason for it to be hidden from Wikipedia readers. If you think that the practice is OK with you personally, then say so. That is very different from deciding that nobody else should consider it controversial.
Really? Could you show where he has done so, please? I think you may find that claim has been deleted. Even if it had not been, it is entirely unverified and unsourced and also absurd, since it wouldn't even be a defence against plagarism to say that you had the publisher's connivance in doing so.
So what you're doing here is relying on a deleted, unsourced and irrelevant claim as a defence against the publication of material that is rigorous in evidence and presentation and copiously sourced.
As the extent of the plagiarism alleged against Keene is of such proportions that Keene would consitute one of the most extensive plagiarists in British journalistic history, it's hard to see how this can possibly be true. Plagiarism is extremely serious for a journalist: we may refer to the opinion of the Times columnist Mr Oliver Kamm that if he engaged in it, he would lose his job.
In short, what Keene is accused of is very serious, very extensive and very well documented. Hiding it from Wikipedia readers is increasingly unjustifiable.
Fewwords ( talk) 07:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)
Although the material was in fact neither unsourced nor poorly sourced, which tends to take the point out of your point. Moreover the material is impeccably and authoritatively presented, has been referenced elsewhere and has been subject to no complaint or challenge.
Reviewing the discussion above, I find the following statement from yourself:
This does at least recognise that "trouble" does result from deleting stuff wholesale, which is why I raised this section of the Talk. I think Wikipedia works best as a collaborative rather than a confrontational operation, which is why I would have appreciated some explanation as to why the section on the non-response of editors has been inexplicably deleted.
Similarly the section on Keene's prodigious unacknowledged recycling of his own work, a remarkable practice even if we were to ignore the issue of copyright theft which it raises. I find that this is unilaterally designated non-controversial and deleted, by somebody who similarly argues that the plagiarism issue is over-stated (despite its huge scale) and that deleted, incomprehensible defences to accusations are to be given some kind of weight. I also notice, above, that there is scarcely, if at all, a Keene-critical source which has not at one time or another had its legitimacy questioned. Oddly though Daniel Freeman can post on here without anybody asking whether he has a working relationship with Keene. Curiouser and curiouser. Fewwords ( talk) 09:02, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Gee. It's quite amazing to see people violently opposing the appearance of the unvarnished truth on Keene's wikipedia page - in the interest of accurate information! The Keene strategy itself - just deny the facts until they give up and go away. Then carry on doing it. It's a mystery to me how Keene finds such defenders. Unless they are him. Who knows. Maybe they just don't know about the scale of Keene's misdemeanours. It just doesn't sound likely, people saying such awful things about a Pillar of the Establishment. Who are you gonna believe, R Keene MBE, founder of dozens of organizations with extremely impressive names, or a whining nobody? Well, cheers to you, Fewwords - someone who knows truth when he sees it, and cares when someone spits on it, indeed makes a career out of spitting on it. 110.20.197.87 ( talk) 02:26, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
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A large chunk of the Brain Games controversy rests on statements and articles written by David Levy. I question the reliability of this person as a referenced source. Obviously there was a bitter fall-out between the two in-laws around the Mind Sports Organisation and Brain Games. I cautiously suggest that points/issues raised by Levy should be cross-checked and verified by an independent source (that meets Wikipedia's threshold for being a trusted resource), with the aim of removing those points that cannot be independently corroborated. I realise these statements have been publicly available online for 16 years, but I also realise there's a factor of "he said, she said" going on, but here it seems one-sided, as if Levy's comments on the operations of a company he wasn't directly involved in are gospel.
I raise this concern now, as someone who has been following the ZX Spectrum Vega+ fiasco for about 18 months, where David Levy is right at the heart of it as chairman of Retro Computers Limited. The similarities of Levy's criticism of Keene 16 years ago and his criticisms of Paul Andrews (Shareholder and ex-Director of Retro Computers Limited) are noticeable. Both are accused of using the funds of one company to start another (Brain Games Ltd / Retro Games Ltd), both with the argument that the company Levy runs should have a shareholding in this newly formed company (Mind Sports Organisation Ltd / Retro Computers Ltd). In my personal opinion the statements from David Levy regarding Retro Computers Ltd are fabrications and distortions of a kernel of truth. And so I question the validity of his criticism against Keene that cannot be validated or confirmed by independent third-party trusted sources. Isofarro ( talk) 20:35, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm starting to list here trusted/reliable sources around Braingames, and it's organisation of the 2000 Braingames match. Isofarro ( talk) 07:31, 8 July 2018 (UTC)