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Restored RECENT TALK comments that should NOT be hidden in archieve the SAME DAY they are written. TALK is where consensus and respect is given to differing points of view. Kyle Andrew Brown 16:42, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I saw this section some time ago and it cleared up a lot of questions for me. I've added a bit to it with Gorgonzilla's help. He provided me a link to the federal plan that further defined and reinforced the state plan's elucidation of Nagin's responsibilities. Yet a few here who seem to think these verbatim quotes sourced to official government documents are POV and should not be included. I still don't understand their "logic." They have blanked this complete section several times. Please take a look at the section and give me your opinion on what changes should be made and/or why this section should or shouldn't be included in the article: Thanks -- DKorn 05:19, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Mayor Nagin's Hurricane Katrina Responsibilities
Mayor Nagin's responsibility during Hurricane Katrina was to act as chief parish administrator in ensuring the responsibilities of the parish under both the federal plan, called simply the Federal Response Plan, [1] and the state plan, called the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation and Sheltering Plan [2] were properly accomplished. Chief among the Nagin's responsibilities was to manage designated evacuation shelters and ensure the evacuation of those who could not evacuate on their own.
The federal plan assigns the evacuation responsibility to the local level with this language (p. FSF #8-13) [3]:
The state plan cites the Mayor's responsibility in the following language (Part 1 Section C2b and Part 1, Section D7) [4]:
Other critical paragraphs (Part 2,Section B5 and Part 2 Section B12):
A statement in the plan that defines the Governor's responsibility toward Parishes is (Part II Section B17):
The plan bears the signature of Nagin's predecessor certifying Orleans Parish's agreement or acceptance of this responsibility and the signature of Governor Kathleen Blanco indicating the Governor's agreement or acceptance.
It should be noted, the Governor's responsibility notwithstanding, the Superdome (in a risk Parish), was the only designated shelter for residents of the city of New Orleans. [5] "
I think it hurts the credibility of both the Wikipedia and Nagin if criticisms of him are simply omitted. These criticisms are being made, and so they should on some level be presented here, regardless of whether we consider them valid. Instead, we are simply acting as a sounding board for the mayor's own opinions, rather than providing a neutral perspective on the controversies surrounding him. Moreover, I happen to think that most of the criticisms weighed against Nagin are invalid, and by neglecting to mention them, we have the additional effect of perpetuating them. On the other hand, if we balance out all of the unverified claims with statements to the effect that "the accuracy of this claim has not been verified", etc., we avoid the possibility that people will suspect the Wikipedia of sharing these unverified claims. This seems to me, the much better approach.
And to say that the neutrality of the article is not in dispute is ridiculous. It clearly is. 65.241.152.139 21:24, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
DUDE, I've read this article and many articles in the history. It appears a very well sourced (to an official Louisiana Document) section on Nagin's responsibilities under the evacuation plan keeps being deleted. There was a comment I read that this came from a Right Wing blog yet the truth is the section came from the official document. Why is that section objectionable?? Criticism of Nagin, sourced or unsourced, makes no sense unless what he was supposed to do is explained. I'm clearly stating here and now that's why I'm re-adding the section. If you or anyone else removes it or reverts to an article without the section, I expect you or they to clearly state why that has been done. Or do rules only apply to certain people? -- DKorn 01:14, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
GORGONZILLA, I'd like to remind you of a Wikipedia policy I just happened upon and you have apparantly ignored
[7]
In other words, you would like to MISdirect everyone away from the issue of Nagin's responsibilities and toward a personal attack. My ISP is ATT Worldnet. It is shared by millions of others. I am not the person you claim I am. However, even accurately making such a claim is in direct violation of Wikipedia's rule prohibiting Presonal Attacks. Here is that rule (2nd item in the list) [8]:
Your personal attack has been reported and your refusal to defend your edit here before you chose to make a personal attack has been noted. Comments also placed on Aquillon's talk page. Aquillon has yet to reply on my talk page as per Wikipedia's strongly suggested practices. Has this place always been a sewer? -- DKorn 19:21, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
WRONG. Not Long John Silver, but more importantly your thesis is wrong as well. My referencing two official government documents isn't original research. Anyone can follow my sources and find the same things I used in my edit. I not only provided links, I provided page numbers and sections as well. Original research is something that can't be verified, such as if I were to post my statistical study on the effect of Hurricanes Ivan, Jeanne, Francis and Charley on the Atlantic Kingfish populations. In the latter case, you would have no access to my raw data and therefore could not verify my conclusions. Once published I can link my study as a reference as it will then be available to all. Capice?
Didn't you even read what you linked? It clearly says:
My quotes were verbatim excerpts of the official documents (I even used Adobe's C&P feature on the federal one) available to all just one click away. Not original. -- DKorn 22:03, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I didn't issue any conclusions in the section. I merely provided what the documents define Nagin's responsibilities to be and added one of Blanco's responsibilities that impacted upon Nagin. That's not a conclusion. A conclusion would involve an analysis of whether Nagin successfully accomplished his responsibilities. That clearly wasn't in the section. -- DKorn 05:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Beyond, CLEARLY STATE WHAT YOU ADD AND REMOVE TO AN ARTICLE. If you edit parts about criticism AND when the requests for federal assistance came, SAY SO! As a heads up, people (or maybe just one person) have been routinely replacing whole sections of the article, removing lots of properly sourced info and then neglecting to mention it.
If your criticism of Mayor Nagin is based upon your vast knowledge of the Mayor and New Orleans as so conveyed by the national media since Katrina, then you are as unqualified to give commentary as the reporters calling the I-10 bridge the Causeway, stating that water flowing over a levee at one point was flowing into, rather than correctly out of, the city, calling the 9th Ward "a section of the French Quarter". Let the story play itself out and the let the chips fall where they may. But you will see in the end that Ray Nagin did an excellent job given the hand he was dealt, and nobody who's sole source of information has been the national media at this point has any business whatsoever in casting stones at the Mayor.
All this talk about "preparing the Superdome" to be an evacuation center is ridiculous. Any New Orleanian knows it was a "shelter of last resort" and knows it was a place to seek self-supplied refuge from the elements and knows it was meant only for those who had absolutely no way out of the city. Who had no way out of the city you may ask. Not the poor. New Orleans is a driving city. A perpetual summer heat index of 115 degrees makes it so. Everyone either has or knows someone who has a car. Too poor to pay for a hotel? Shelters are always available and, though they may not be the most pleasant environment, they are as comfortable as the school buses people suggest having been used. It's just too bad hurricanes don't cause profuse sweating days in advance, maybe people would have used their cars to get out of the city and Nagin would only have had to deal with the people who genuinely could not have gotten out.
Then regarding his supposed delays for evacuation, did any of you actually see the press conferences before the hurricane or is it just what you heard was supposedly said via the media? Did any of you hear him begging people to leave, telling them this is a killer storm, telling them he could not order a "mandatory evacuation" solely because of legal reasons but that you have absolutely no business being here despite this formality. Does anyone realize that Orleans Parish has its own set of laws seperate from those of its neighboring parishes which very well could have caused him to not act as they did. Does anyone here know about the details of the contraflow plan mandating an order by parish of evacuation. I didn't think so.
I'm getting the idea now. This is a pro-Nagin article. Any link that criticises Nagin is insufficient. Anyone that criticises Nagin is a "sockpuppet" or a pawn or any of the other names that people here are called. And now, we are being told that "Encyclopedic articles are not the the place for such criticism"? Fine. Will the George W. Bush article be changed to reflect that? Of course not.
Anyone care to look at this Wall Street Journal article "Blame Amid the Tragedy - Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents" [9]? I quote, "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation."
"...even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them"
Oh, I forgot - no link is sufficient to claim that the phone call existed, or that the school busses were under water. Even Yahoo pictures are insufficient, huh?
"Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed"
Has Gorgonzolla violated the 3RR rule? How many times has he violated it?
I'm beginning to get the picture, and I NOW understand Wikipedia. The purpose of this is to present biased and prejudiced political opinions. Anyone that questions those opinions is attacked.
It cracks me up now that some of the same documents I originally referenced - documents such as the New Orleans evacuation plan, and Bianco's letter on her .gov website - are now being referenced by CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC. Corwin8 00:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
O.K., Aquillion, maybe I mispoke. If, for example, I wrote something like: Reporter John Smith remarked that Mayor Ray Nagin failed to put the toilet seat down. [10] Is that the proper format? Corwin8 05:46, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The POV deletions I have made do not imply that the content deleted is inaccurate. However, as an encyclopedia article content must be constructed that refrains from appearing to be the opinion of the writer. The article can state that an individual said ____ regarding _____. But the content cannot make conclusions based upon those statements. The statements must speak for themselves. Deletions do not imply a bias against Nagin. Deletions are an indication to writers that content must be factual and not opinionated. When, for example, the Governor is quoted as saying "I think the mayor..." that is her opinion and is appropriate for inclusion in the article. To begin the quote saying "The mayor flip flopped when he" is an opinion by the writer of the action. However, to state, "When the mayor did ___ then ____ was the result" that is a statement of fact. Journo 101. Kyle Andrew Brown 07:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
This is the "Dueling Criticisms" which has been removed from the article for POV:
Thats alright, we have all seen it again, and again and again and again. Long John Silver keeps reverting to the version of this article he wrote several days ago and has been rejected as POV by every single other editor apart from his sockpuppets. It isn't even repeating GOP talking points (which would be notable even if POV) it is his own set of personal theories based on rumours he read on Powerline and Little Green Footballs. -- Gorgonzilla 14:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
(summary of earlier debate) It is really quite simple. If you want to report criticism of the article simply state who is making the satement. 'Some people say' is not an acceptable citation for partisan criticism in a dictionary. The Evergreen Foundation has been circulating most of the blog conspiracy theories to the mainstream media including the Wall Street Journal and CNN. So this is not all that hard. A comment in Powerline blog is NOT notable criticism -- Gorgonzilla 14:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
(Response to Corwin8) by KAB: The POV deletions I have made do not imply that the content deleted is inaccurate. However, as an encyclopedia article content must be constructed that refrains from appearing to be the opinion of the writer. The article can state that an individual said ____ regarding _____. But the content cannot make conclusions based upon those statements. The statements must speak for themselves. Deletions do not imply a bias against Nagin. Deletions are an indication to writers that content must be factual and not opinionated. When, for example, the Governor is quoted as saying "I think the mayor..." that is her opinion and is appropriate for inclusion in the article. To begin the quote saying "The mayor flip flopped when he" is an opinion by the writer of the action. However, to state, "When the mayor did ___ then ____ was the result" that is a statement of fact. Journo 101. Kyle Andrew Brown 07:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that all of the criticisms of Nagin so far just state that "people" have criticized him, or that he has "faced criticism". This is unencyclopedic; criticisms need to be traced to a specific source before they can be placed in an enyclopedia article. Likewise, if they don't have a specific source, they can't be here--people can't just come up with their own criticisms of Nagin and put them in the article. Aquillion 20:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with AP & Reuters photos backed with an NBC report from a veteran NBC reporter? Especially after certain editors here have readily accepted LW blog BS from only one extremely biased LW blog. That bit of maniacal "selectivity" clearly seems like biased POV. Is there some kind of organised group of LW morons here? I'll wait exactly 2 hours for someone to convince me why the 3 mainstream media sources, including a veteran reporter, all saying the same thing are somehow illegitimate while lunatic leftist blogs aren't. Then, if you fail to convince me, I'm going to re-ad the section I've posted for comment/consensus just below. After that point, if it's removed again, I will report the vandal. You have already been warned against vandalism right inside the article. Apparently some editors here have refined repeated vandalism to an artform.
Here is the section:
--
JimmyCrackedCorn
03:28, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This is the first I've been here. Even an idiot should know any driver suffices in an emergency including an evacuee and Hurricane Katrina was clearly an emergency. School buses even have automatic transmissions. There was also even a young man barely out of his teens who stole a school bus and successfully drove several evacuees to the Astrodome. [16] He is a hero. So don't give me that red herring.
As for your other very weak objection - that this isn't a criticism because no one says "I criticize the Mayor" in the article - you should be reminded the section I added the paragraph to is called "Criticism of Relief Efforts." It is not called "Criticism of Mayor Nagin." Myers very clearly criticized the relief efforts in her article. But in the spirit of concillation I've decided to accept your "point." To remedy the problem you have claimed exists, I will make the Mayor's failure to use the school and RTA buses that were later flooded their very own section in the Nagin article. Do not delete it again or your vandalism will be reported. If you wish to make minor modifications to the new section bring your discussion on the topic here before you do. Someone here posted a Wikipedia rule I've repeated above. See that you don't "forget" it again.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution
-- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Aquillon, are you actively disagreeing with the editor who often appears to be your sockpuppet? I've moved "his" summary to just below this text. As you can see in the article's section on buses, I provided 2 well linked Major Network News sources with a mainstream veteran reporter and even 2 corroberating News Wire services. I've also linked an Official Government Document. All these sources are in agreement on the buses matter. Your "friend" Gorgonzilla says only 1 Network News Source needs to be produced for the bus story to be valid for inclusion. There was no personal opinion in the section I wrote, but if there was I encourage you to point it out here on the discussion page and make whatever minor edits are required to eliminate it. My sourcing goes well beyond your/his requirements. Why are you so worried about people knowing the truth that you would make requirements for inclusion of this section a moving target? Could it be you can't reasonably divorce your Wikipedia edits from your own extreme LW POV? --
JimmyCrackedCorn
18:08, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
GORGONZILLA's TEXT: (summary of earlier debate) Its really quite simple, just find a notable (i.e. top 10 blog, major national newspaper, cable news, network news) source for the claim and do not insert personal interpretation into the statement. The Hurricane is a major news story, the number 1 news story since it occurred. If a theory stands up it will be reported by a notable source somewhere. I suspect the reason the story is not being quoted is that as Mongo points out nobody predicted in advance that it would take FEMA 5 days to arrive at the Superdome. The superdome was expected to weather the storm in one piece. -- Gorgonzilla 14:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Your number of edits means nothing more than you and Gorgonzilla have been sockpuppets of one another for a long time. As for your allegation that I changed Gorgonzilla's paragraph, I changed nothing. I'm not going to say you are a liar. Even though you haven't honored wikipedia's policy of assuming good intentions I'll just say that you and Gorgonzilla are both very prone to make very similar "mistakes" that are all in your favor. Here is a link to the very discussion page edit where Gorgonzilla first put the paragraph in the buses section I cited. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Ray_Nagin&oldid=22844375 and here is a link to where Gorgonzilla adds the line about Mongo. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Ray_Nagin&oldid=22845990 I'll let others determine you are a liar after going to the links. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 17:40, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Follow the link. Gorgonzilla clearly places your requirements under the section of talk labeled "The School Buses Claim." That means you and your sockpuppet will accept the school buses claim as long as someone just find a notable (i.e. top 10 blog, major national newspaper, cable news, network news) source for the claim and do not insert personal interpretation into the statement. I've well exceeded that. So honor your word. Or explain why my 2 Network media sources, 2 news wire sources and an official Government Document aren't as good as your foolisf LW extremist blog - DailyKos. I'm replacing the section and also removing any claim about Nagin's Party affiliation until you or that other vandal finds a source. This article has been junk since your/Gorgonzilla's very first edit here. I've read the history. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 22:15, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
coming from. That is not the way an encyclopedia works.
Don't be a clown. You were the one who whined about the buses being in the criticism section. That was why I granted you special consideration and made it it's own section. Are you now saying you or your sockpuppet made the "mimstake?"
The mayor's party is not "common knowlege" and you have no source. Find one and I'll let the edit slide and even protect your claim against vandals. Don't find one and it stays gone. Clear? I have had a source for everything I've written here. It goes. It is not of sufficient quality for Wikipedia and you should examine your own capabilities. Most of your edits seem to be of insufficient quality. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 00:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
NBC's Lisa Myers is clearly a critic as was the evacuee Connie London. Since bizarrely you claimed Myers was not criticizing the mayor, I accomodated you by moving it to a new section that didn't mention criticism but only gave a staid explanation of the facts. But we both know your real objection is to having the truth about the situation appear in the article, don't we? The mayor was responsible for the evacuation and it was the mayor's charge under the state plan to evacuate the poor using school and other buses. That is clear from the state plan. As such it is clear as long as a Hurricane Katrina section appears in the article, the section about the buses belongs. The fact Nagin didn't arrange evacuation is easily balanced by the fact that Gov. Kathleen Blanco nver arranged for Nagin to send evacuees in non-risk parishes. Nagin is as much victim as villian, IMO. I'm sure Blanco was none to happy with his anti-corruption campaign.
Since you don't agree evacuation was Nagin's responsibility, who do you claim was responsible for New Orleans' evacuation? What is your basis for that claim? Do you have a link to anything beside a lunatic left wing blog that supports your position? Your source for the Mayor's party affiliation says nothing about his switching sides to the Democrat Party, so I still consider his party affiliation unsettled. Here is what your source says about party: "A married Republican with three children, Nagin says a conversation with one of his kids made him want to lead New Orleans. If he succeeded, a mountain of headaches and $110,000 per year awaited." As for the Mayor's photo, it was removed in error, but it is an unflattering photo. But I'd rather it stay for now until something a bit more distinguished can be found. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 03:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hurricane Katrina#Evacuation and emergency shelters already makes specific mention of the school bus situation. Would it make sense to merge with that?
Also, the claims of vandalism here are rather silly. Vandalism, by definition, involves bad faith. What's happening here is an edit war. -- Jasonuhl 07:11, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
If the school bus section is left here also it makes sense to bring the section with very credible references there too. In fact, I think I will. It clearly belongs in the Nagin article too since, as the section points out with reference to official government documents, Nagin, as head of the parish, was responsible for the evacuation and had the authority to use the parishes school buses to execute his charge. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 22:54, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
The school bus photo with caption ran under the Associated Press. That Matt Drudge or the New York Times has referenced it, makes it no less credible. It needs to stay. --HazeGray
138.162.0.46
15:32, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone (won't make any assumptions here) attempted to re-insert the "unused" school buses theory in the article, in much the same manner as LJS, using the very same .jpg as the Drudge Report which I believe LJS did as well. THIS PHOTO DOES NOT SUBSTANTIATE THE THEORY. -- Jentizzle 17:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Somebody quote big article here, i shortened it. -- C.levin 23:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
MONGO, In this article which deals with Ray Nagin, it is appropriate to include his actions, which describe his mindset. For example: " Nagin said the city would open the Superdome as a special-needs shelter today at 8 a.m. He advised anyone planning to stay there to bring food, drinks and other comforts, such as folding chairs, as if planning to go camping.
Citizens must call 568-3200 to verify that they qualify for admittance to the shelter, city officials said. Phone lines will be open at 7 a.m.
Nagin spokeswoman Tami Frazier stressed that the mayor does not want citizens to plan on staying in the Dome -- instead, they should make arrangements to leave the city if possible.
"We don't anticipate having to turn people away," Frazier said. "But (staying in the Dome) should not be a situation that you're counting on."
Nagin added, "No weapons, no large items, and bring small quantities of food for three or four days, to be safe." ( http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml?nola)
So, what was meant by "bring (...) food for three or four days"? It reflects Nagin's mindset in regards to the population of New Orleans. Do you read in that statement, that he was expecting FEMA help within that time slot? If not, why didn't Nagin say, just go to the Superdome if you don't have transportation? FEMA has hot meals and showers ready. A quote from the above article should be included in this article. Whyerd 10:04, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
(summary of earlier debate) The claim that Posse Comitatus prevented action by Bush has been disproved by reference to the Wikipedia article which clearly states that the act can be waived by the President in times of emergency. Anyone wanting to resurect the claim should discuss here in talk first. -- Gorgonzilla 14:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The following theories have floated around the blogosphere but are not considered notable for the reason given:
The Extended comments by Bush and by the Governor are candidates for shortening. This article is not a debate forum in the sense that we are not here to bring the "evidence" of who is right, who is wrong, who gets blamed, based upon lengthy "transcripts". The transcripts are entirely appropriate as external links that the reader can go to which also have the advantage in their original form of being unfiltered. As they are now presented in the article they are POV filtered. That just does't fly.
Again, its totally appropriate for the article to frame that there is a controversy between the White House and the Governor and the Mayor about responsiblity. However, it cannot be framed using opinionated modifying language juxtaposed next to the quotes. The goal as a content provider is to not let the reader be pointed to the writer's personal POV. If a writer has POV - and any journalist worthy of the name does have a POV, then present it with facts, attribution. Let the other side do the same. Then the reader can weigh the facts presented - and that is their right as a reader of an encyclopedia. If I want to convince you that the President, the Mayor, the Governor is at fault for something then I will turn to another media forum where is is perfectly acceptable to do that.
This is not FOX News or the Madison Capitol Times, oppps, sorry, that's POV sockpuppetry. I apologize. Kyle Andrew Brown 16:54, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The quotations from the sep1 interview are excessive. A representative quote and a link to the full transcript would be more appropriate. -- Gorgonzilla 19:08, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Had to give up basically guarding this article with Gorgonzilla for a bit to study for exams. Long John Silver's signature tabloid-news reporter style is so obvious after he's re-written an article it really doesn't matter what alias he uses, does it?
I've told quite a few admin's about this loose cannon rewriting entire articles without a shred of evidence e.g. the sources don't support claims he makes, takes quotes out of context, etc. and worst of all, the way he uses the talk page not to reach consensus with other users but as a soapbox for his whacked theories. Perhaps I'm getting a bit mean now, but this is the sum total of major problems I have had (as well as many others who voice their opinions above) with user's HORRIBLE edits. I can only hope some admin sees this and blocks the MANY different IPs he posts from. -- Jentizzle 02:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I think that it will inflate the size of the article beyond what is appropriate, but the one sentance I have been trying to correct from the nagin criticism portion, the part about the superdome not being supplied, keeps returning.
would a point by point pro/con list be acceptable, e.g.
point 1: federal response
pro: [statistics on federal response] e.g. FEMA's response included: http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18461 "FEMA’s Urban Search & Rescue (USAR) and Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) are also staged for immediate response anywhere in the region. The funding and direct federal assistance will assist law enforcement with evacuations, establishing shelters and other emergency protective measures.
FEMA has deployed USAR teams from Tennessee, Missouri and Texas to stage in Shreveport, LA.. USAR teams from Indiana and Ohio are staged in Meridian, MS. Two teams each from Florida and Virginia and one team from Maryland are on alert at their home stations.
A total of 18 DMATs have been deployed to staging areas in Houston, Anniston and Memphis. There are 9 full DMATs (35 members per team) and 9 strike teams (5 members per team) in these staging areas."...
"Eighteen Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) and 3 Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) task forces have been deployed to the region for further dispatch when needed."
by the 31st "More than 1,700 trucks have been mobilized through federal, state and contract sources to supply ice, water and supplies. These supplies and equipment are being moved into the hardest hit areas as quickly as possible, especially water, ice, meals, medical supplies, and generators. It may, however, take several days for supplies and equipment to reach all victims because of damaged and closed roads and bridges." http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18497
[nagin]con: the federal response to the most dangerous natural disaster in U. S. history was not what could be called "shock, and awe", rather it was seemingly reluctant, disproportionally small, and in many cases put on hold for usually half a week because of red tape when hours and minutes decide the fates of the people unable to escape the path of the hurricane. Nagin has been one of the central figures in the public outcry over the federal government's relief effort.
point 2: superdome (preperation of)
[nagin]pro: stocked with seven truckloads of Meals Ready to Eat, and three truckloads of water
cons: sanitation, underestimation of the number of people to prepare for, lack of generators, airconditioning, national guardsmen, transportation. Supporters of the Federal response have been decrying what they describe, as the local government's failure to properly prepare the superdome, and other shelters for the hurricane.
point 3: superdome (handling of crisis)
pro: after something like a week, they were evacuated
[nagin]con: ignored for days by federal authorities. Nagin has been criticised federal government's assistance with regard to the situation in the superdome
point 4: Local, and State Response
[nagin]Pro: for the most part described as over and above all previous state, and local responses to hurricanes ever before.
cons: republicans from drudge to the President are dumping blame on a group often referred to as "anyone but the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Executive branch of the U. S. Government". Many republicans have lashed out at Nagin, though few have admitted that they're following the adage that a good offense makes the best defense.
point 5: mass transit
[nagin]pro: ???
con: many critics believe, that, in retrospect, that the use of Mass Transit, especially busses, should have been explored to improve the mandatory evacuation effort that was delayed by uncertainty in the mayor's office. this harsh criticism is also one of the points Republicans make to deflect criticism of the Bush Administration's handling of hurricane Katrina.
-- 66.92.144.73 03:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Thats all very well but the criticism should be cited or people end up deleting it for using weasel terms. The section I added on the Evergreen guys criticism has stayed because it is sourced. I am pretty sure that you will find that the guy has sourced most of the criticisms you are refering to here. -- Gorgonzilla 03:32, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
here's what I think is a good candidate:
points(federal response, Superdome(preperation of), Superdome(handling of emergancy), Local and State response, mass transit)
Pro: FEMA's response included: [18] "FEMA’s Urban Search & Rescue (USAR) and Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) are also staged for immediate response anywhere in the region. The funding and direct federal assistance will assist law enforcement with evacuations, establishing shelters and other emergency protective measures.
FEMA has deployed USAR teams from Tennessee, Missouri and Texas to stage in Shreveport, LA.. USAR teams from Indiana and Ohio are staged in Meridian, MS. Two teams each from Florida and Virginia and one team from Maryland are on alert at their home stations.
A total of 18 DMATs have been deployed to staging areas in Houston, Anniston and Memphis. There are 9 full DMATs (35 members per team) and 9 strike teams (5 members per team) in these staging areas."...
"Eighteen Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) and 3 Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) task forces have been deployed to the region for further dispatch when needed."
by the 31st "More than 1,700 trucks have been mobilized through federal, state and contract sources to supply ice, water and supplies. These supplies and equipment are being moved into the hardest hit areas as quickly as possible, especially water, ice, meals, medical supplies, and generators. It may, however, take several days for supplies and equipment to reach all victims because of damaged and closed roads and bridges."
(Nagin)Con: the federal response to the most dangerous natural disaster in U. S. history was not what could be called "shock, and awe", rather it was seemingly reluctant, disproportionally small, and in many cases put on hold for usually half a week because of red tape when hours and minutes decide the fates of the people unable to escape the path of the hurricane. Nagin has been one of the central figures in the public outcry over the federal government's relief effort.
(lifted verbatum from the earlier article) On September 1, 2005, Nagin expressed his frustration and anger at the response of other government officials and the lack of aid to the city of New Orleans in an emotional interview with Garland Robinette, on radio station WWL:
You know what really upsets me, Garland? We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, "Please, please take care of this. We don't care what you do. Figure it out."
[...]
And they allowed that pumping station next to Pumping Station 6 to go under water. Our sewage and water board people ... stayed there and endangered their lives. And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city, and it starting getting to levels that probably killed more people.
[...]
So there's no water flowing anywhere on the east bank of Orleans Parish. So our critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of action.
[...]
There is nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here.
[...]
I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.
[...]
But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.
Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.
[...]
Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.
Expanding on his statements, he added:
The convention center is unsanitary and unsafe, and we are running out of supplies for the 15,000 to 20,000 people. [19]
Mayor Nagin again voiced his criticism of the state's response to the crisis in a CNN interview on September 5, "...what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate." He further defended his response to Katrina in stating, "Look, I'll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens." [20]
(Nagin) Pro: The Superdome was stocked with seven truckloads of Meals Ready to Eat, and three truckloads of water . the national guard had supplies there to provide food and water for 15,000 people for 3 days on the august 28th. as for wether to believe quotes attributed to the deputy director of the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Emergency Preparedness as reported by the times picayune. [21]
Con: "The convention center is unsanitary and unsafe, and we are running out of supplies for the 15,000 to 20,000 people."(Mayor Ray Nagin) [22] As to the human condition in the superdome during in the immediate aftermath, "One guy jumped off a balcony," said Charles Womack [23] a national guard soldier said, "We found a young girl raped and killed in the bathroom. Then the crowd got the man and they beat him to death." as reported by BBC. [24]
Pro: After five days, the Superdome evacuation is complete. [25]
(Nagin)Con: [26]The initial governmental presence in the Superdome consisted of "about 200 other Guard members and a few New Orleans policemen, since Monday." according to the Washington Post. Society broke down in what was supposed to be a haven.
(Nagin) Pro: "When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens." [27] (cut and paste job from the nagin pro section of wikipedia article)
Con:(another cut and paste from wiki article)Bob Williams of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a conservative think tank, criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a Wall Street journal op-ed claiming "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation." [28] However, when asked to confirm the claim that Bush had allegedly persuaded Nagin to order the evacuation Whitehouse press secretary Scott McClellan stated that he had no information to this effect. In fact, the only reported conversation between Bush and Blanco regarding the hurricane prior to its arrival had taken place immediately before the mandatory evacuation was announced at a pre-arranged press conference [29].
Mr.Williams, a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, further raised questions about the extent to which state and city officials refined and developed evacuation plans for the city.
"The Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved."
(Nagin) Pro: ???
Con: Many critics believe that, in retrospect, the use of Mass Transit, especially busses, should have been explored to improve the mandatory evacuation effort that was delayed by uncertainty in the mayor's office. this harsh criticism is also one of the points Republicans make to deflect criticism of the Bush Administration's handling of hurricane Katrina. "WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THE BUSES DURING THE MANDATORY EVACUATION, MAYOR?..." as the drudge report puts it. [30]
-- 66.92.144.73 01:38, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
The statement: "However, in contradiction of the three sources cited above, a document which also appears to be a copy of the governor's request [6] is dated August 28." (in the "Hurricane Katrina" section of the entry) is misleading. There were two letters sent by Governor Blanco, and thus no contradiction. Careful readers of the White House response of August 27th will note that this letter of authorization specifically mentions a number of parishes, but does not mention Orleans Parish or several of its surrounding Parishes. Blanco's second letter to the White House specifically mentions these Parishes which were omitted from the White House authorization. I have no idea why the White House omitted these Parishes in its initial response, or chose to name any Parishes at all rather than simply the state of Louisiana, but I would surmise that the Governor sent the second letter as a clarification, in case the White House had made a mistake.
I'm not editing the entry itself, as I've never done that before, and I'm sure there are other people who could do it more quickly and efficiently (and phrase the edit more effectively) than I could. Whyaduck 03:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
"Also, the news journal Editor & Publisher has criticized several conservative politicians and journalists regarding what it perceives to be their reluctance to place blame on the Bush Administration, or comment on the aftermath Hurricane Katrina at all. [19]"
Critic is cited, criticism is phrased as what news journal "perceives" to have happened. -- Jentizzle 15:07, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Whatever their content, this article section on criticism is loaded with long excerpts from sources. It's fully understandable that the content supports various positions on the Mayor. But I would suggest that it reads like a newspaper article and that the work of preparing a summary based upon facts and placing the long excerpts in links has not been done. It gives the article the appearance of one big POV - and I'll be honest I did not wade through it to determine just which POV viewpoints were presented.
I just don't think this article should be prepared as a newspaper report and I suspect it's not going to hold up. The huge transcript of the Mayor in an interview just doesn't look like it should be presented that way.
You wont see me editing, deleting, reverting it. But it needs to be done. This is not how biography is done in an encylclopedia. It's how its done in a book. Kyle Andrew Brown 15:59, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I noticed the clean up tag on this page. I've been watching the talk page as well. We should come to an agreement and have someone edit this page so we can remove it. I'm not sure if no one has had time to fix it, or that they are afraid to with all the problems it's had. Anyway, I just thought I'd say that Davidpdx 9/11/05 9:03pm KST
The whole evaluation is changing during the blame game. Just to comment: I think local "nincompoops" know a lot more about the abilities and disabilities of the town or city population, and the w2ays out the area than politicians thousands of miles away. Gorgonzilla's point about someone "eating babies" is not far off par considering that Randall Robinson stated: “It is reported that black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive.” Deranged racist crap. Whyerd 18:33, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Well the latest information is that the neighboring city posted armed police to stop people walking out via the interstate. Nagin is real pissed about it and with good reason. It is pretty bizare the number of officials who were paralyzed by fear of lawsuits and legal implications then there are people taking completely illegal actions that kill. Oh and it turns out that FEMA was refusing to allow supplies to be delivered because they didn't have a ticket number, not because they were needed elsewhere. -- Gorgonzilla 21:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/12/103905.shtml Whyerd 17:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone has asserted POV without putting any comment here in talk. Is this just LJS with yet another sockpuppet account?
The extreme POV here is nothing short of what could be expected in a Michael Moore movie. That in looking at the history any change has been repeatedly vandalized including POV and quality warnings is yet further evidence of this. That anyone issuing an objection on this discussion page is regularly attacked on this page is yet more evidence of that extremism. How that EL_C? -- 66.43.173.74 01:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't be deliberately obtuse. Even the Democrat Governor Kathleen Blanco has criticized Nagin. With her claims the evacuation was handled poorly. http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1102467&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 -- 66.43.173.74 13:09, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
What article were you reaing?? This is very clearly criticism from ythe governor's office:
"Shortly before Katrina hit, she sent President Bush a request asking for shelter and provisions, but didn't specifically ask for help with evacuations. One aide to the governor told ABC News today Blanco thought city officials were taking care of the evacuation." -- JimmyCrackedCorn 04:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
"That anyone issuing an objection on this discussion page is regularly attacked..." Anyone? Really? It's plain that you had AT LEAST TWO or more sockpuppets and posted under different aliases. Manufacturing consensus isn't a particularly efficient or honest way to utilize talk. Frankly speaking, if I knew for certain that wiki prohibited use of different aliases to garner support in talk, I would've reported this to an admin already. I think it would've done more for your credibility to stick with one name, argue your points, and let others take issue with what you've said. This means not appearing as as Long John Silver one minute, criticizing someone's edits, then :showing up under another alias and agreeing with yourself later. -- Jentizzle 04:22, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Problem is, (and bear in mind that I support most of Nagin's commentary), that the City of New Orleans had an evacuation plan which included using mass transit and school buses, which were not used. Now, taking everything into consideration, I don't know how important this is, but it probably does deserve mention as those images of the parking lots full of school buses is fairly damming evidence that the evacuation plan wasn't fully followed. However, if we do this, it needs to be noted that as a Mayor, he didn't have the authority to tell neighboring states that he was bringing his city to their city or jursidiction.-- MONGO 20:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Now the revert war/sockpuppet problem is comming under control we need to cleanup the article. In particular I would like to see the long extracts from the radio interview paraphrased, I don't think that two weeks out they really look like they stand the test of time as Nagin's definitive critique of the Federal efforts.
I would like to suggest that people look through the talk to see what they feel is still relevant to ongoing development of the article and copy them below this comment. Then we can archive all the rest. -- Gorgonzilla 21:41, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Oddly even the above text by Gorgonzilla calls for this clean-up. Nagin "expressed anger and frustration" is clearly POV, the selective edit of Nagin's qotes when he has both criticized and sided with Bush. And the lack of reference to Nagin's criticism on the Governor is clearly POV. The text is below. Please suggest non-POV changes. Thanks. -- DKorn 21:29, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Apparently you can if the rules apply equally to all. At this link we see that an entire section of text was removed by Gorgonzilla for POV [31] at least according to Gorgonzilla. My suggested changes were implicit above, as were Gorgonzillas. Did you read what I said? Here again is what I said:
This means the characterization of Nagin's mood should be removed, a reference to his siding with President Bush needs inclusion, and Nagin's criticism of the Governor's failures need to be added. Clear now?
Criticism of Relief Efforts
On September 1, 2005, Nagin expressed his frustration and anger at the response of other government officials and the lack of aid to the city of New Orleans in an emotional interview with Garland Robinette, on radio station WWL:
Expanding on his statements, he added:
Mayor Nagin again voiced his criticism of the state's response to the crisis in a CNN interview on September 5, "...what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate." He further defended his response to Katrina in stating, "Look, I'll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens." [33]
On September 4, President Bush responded to Nagin's criticism by blaming state and local authorities for their response to Katrina, stating that the latter's magnitude "created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities. The result is that many of our citizens simply are not getting the help they need, especially in New Orleans. And that is unacceptable." [34].
Bob Williams of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a conservative think tank, criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a Wall Street Journal op-ed claiming "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation." [35] However, when asked to confirm the claim that Bush had allegedly persuaded Nagin to order the evacuation, White House press secretary Scott McClellan stated that he had no information to this effect. In fact, the only reported conversation between Bush and Blanco regarding the hurricane prior to its arrival had taken place immediately before the mandatory evacuation was announced at a pre-arranged press conference [36].
Category:Wikipedia:Suspected sockpuppets of 66.43.173.74
Paragraph in question:
Bob Williams of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a conservative think tank, criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a Wall Street Journal op-ed claiming "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation." [16] However, when asked to confirm the claim that Bush had allegedly persuaded Nagin to order the evacuation, White House press secretary Scott McClellan stated that he had no information to this effect. In fact, the only reported conversation between Bush and Blanco regarding the hurricane prior to its arrival had taken place immediately before the mandatory evacuation was announced at a pre-arranged press conference [17].
The only reason the Evergreen foundation is relevant here is that they are a partisan organization that is presumed by the networks to be delivering the WhiteHouse talking points. The organization does not list emergency response as a core competency. The organization website makes it very clear that the organization is partisan and the attempt to present their criticism as neutral and unbiased is deceptive and POV.
Since Scott McClelan's refusal to confirm the claims made by Evergreen the organization has not been heard from again on this matter. -- Gorgonzilla 01:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree this is POV and it is deceptive. If you look at their press release section, you'll see the other main issue they have advocated was in terms of the election in Washington where Dino Rossi lost a close election to Christine Gregoire. One of the stories they posted on their website claims felons vote in overwhelming numbers for democrats.
This seems to me to be another version of the highly controversial Swift Boat organization put in place mearly to smear. You will see that I added the paragraph in question to the talk page so that everyone can read it. I move that this come to a vote as to whether the content should stay or not. Davidpdx 9/18/05 2:00 (UTC)
As an addendum to my arguement above, let me state that I am advocate deleting the entire paragraph including the blog comments. The moment you allow POV stuff like this into articles on Wikipedia is the moment this place becomes a trash can (and yes you can quote me on that!).
Please do not put this section back in until a consensus is reached on the talk page. Davidpdx 9/18/02 2:11 (UTC)
Sorry for the miscommunication. I thought I was moving it here at the same time Gorgonzilla was apparently doing the same. As below I vote this straw man be deleted, LW blog sentences and all. -- DKorn 02:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph needs to be deleted completely. Here again Gorgonzilla tries to make a point using bits and pieces only found on the most extreme LW Blogs. The section even includes a blog as a source. There is very little that can be done to remove the extreme LW POV beside shortening. The paragraph:
Bob Williams of the
Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a conservative
think tank, criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a
Wall Street Journal op-ed claiming "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation."
[37] However, when asked to confirm the claim that Bush had allegedly persuaded Nagin to order the evacuation, White House press secretary
Scott McClellan stated that he had no information to this effect. In fact, the only reported conversation between Bush and Blanco regarding the hurricane prior to its arrival had taken place immediately before the mandatory evacuation was announced at a pre-arranged press conference
[38].
Could become:
Bob Williams of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a think tank that describes itself as "a private, non-profit, public policy research organization," criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a Wall Street Journal op-ed with several points. Among them Williams claimed "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation." [39]
and that would remove all POV.
But I'd vote that it be deleted entirely. There are far more criticisms of the Mayor that can be included in the article. Among them was the Governor's public shoot down of the Mayor's plan to forcefully evacuate people who chose to stay in New Orleans flooded and polluted areas. -- DKorn 02:35, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Should I understand by your "logic" a mix of Right Wing Blog and Left Wing Blog nonsense is balanced and therefore neutral and suitable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article? Would you also support inserting a theory that the moon is made of Green Cheese and an offsetting theory that it is actually a hollow vessel full of moon men? That's "balanced" and therefore neutral too, right? It's also as unbalanced as wanting both right wing and left wing blog items in the same article. I hope you are not really that unbalanced, are you? -- DKorn 04:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
That's even more reason to delete the paragraph that you apparantly included as a straw man just so you could knock it down. You made your logical fallacy a circus and lost credibility when you chose your pals in the extreme left wing blogosphere to knock it down with, however. It all needs to go lock, stock and barrel. -- DKorn 04:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
As I said I think the whole paragraph should go, both the reference to the conservative organization and the blog. Neither have a place in the article. Davidpdx 9/18/05 9:44 (UTC)
Let's talk about this instead of edit warring. And the sockpuppets are starting to get annoying. Pick an account and discuss the problem here. If I keep seeing sockpuppets editing here I'm going to start blocking them all. · Katefan0 (scribble) 14:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Certainly, but if that reasoning is being used to imply they don't belong here also it follows the consitution should not be mentioned in an article on US history if there is an article on James Madison that mentions the constitution. It's a non-sequiter. Mention of the Constitution belongs in multiple places as does Nagin's failure to exercise his evacuation responsibility. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 17:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The local government's inability (led by Ray Nagin) to exercise their charge in evacuating the locals without transportation some of whom died as a result is clearly a major part of the disaster. Unlike you/Gorgonzilla, I have never used a blog as a reference despite your canard above. I have confined my sourcing to NBC, ABC, Reuters, the AP, Official Government Documents, and Wikipedia itself whose source was NOAA satellite photos. You're very familiar with blogs, aren't you? But just because your DailyKos nonsense got the axe, that is no reason to continually blank my section sourced with major network sources, wire sources and official government documents. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 17:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Better sourcing than a local TV anchor and an AP photo? If you were to take a closer look at my sourcing, you'd see I have provided 2 'national network (not local) news anchors who are both veterans - NBC's Lisa Myers and ABC's Dean Reynolds. I have also provided excerpts with links from official government documents, and I have provided clear photos from 3 sources - AP, Reuters and Wikinews. While your criticism of Aquillion's DailyKos blog source is somehow absent. Did Wikinews make my other sources invalid?;0) Also sent to your talk page. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 22:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
By "yes" are you saying my use of Wikinews as a source poisoned all the other sources, or are you acknowledging my rundown of the 6 sources as factual? Where did you get the idea I had only a local reporter and one AP photo, anyway? Also sent to your talk page. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Ten you haven't read my Lisa Myers' source or watched the Dean Reynolds video. Both contain clear criticisms of local government. That is the government headed by Ray Nagin. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 22:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I misattributed the POV statement. It wasn't from JimmyCrackedCorn, but from an anonymous source. My apologies. - Yipdw 01:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Yipdw, I saw that as well. It looks like someone is again putting strong POV statements into this article. Maybe it's time the admins follow up on their threat of banning some people. Hell I got yelled at last week from threating to get someone banned. You think the least the admins (yes you know who this is directed at) could do is hold of up their end of the bargin and actually ban the people that are screwing up this article. Davidpdx 9/22/05 1:45 (UTC)
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla misuses the term coexists. The word is coextensive.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla has still not sourced claim the mayor flip/flopped his party alliance despite earlier discussion and his proven fraudulent claim the info was available in a source he provided. It wasn't. Until there is a source reference to Party should go.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla provides no source for Nagin's political contributions.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla provides no source for election results.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's Hurricane Katrine timeline is out of chronological order.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's claim Nagin expressed "frustration and anger" is personal POV
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version completely obscures what Mayor Nagin's Hurricane Katrina responsbilities were under the city, state and/or federal evacuation plans. Without that, any reference to Hurricane Katrina makes no sense.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version makes no mention of the unused buses being cited under the evacuation plans as available for evacuation.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version makes no mention of the flooding of the idle buses.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version makes no mention of Nagin's rejection of the idle buses or his demand somebody send him some Greyhound buses.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version makes the unsourced claim the Evergreen Foundation is "conservative." Since neither the WSJ describes the EF that way, nor does the EF itself, the label can only be personal POV.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version labels the last paragraph "Critics of Nagin" in a clearly POV attempt to make the critics the focus rather than the criticism. This borders on a logical fallacy called poisoning the well. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 04:57, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
So in your fit of hypocrisy hypocrisy you've decided to accuse me of having a sockpuppet while claiming such an accusation is a violation of Wikipedia's policy, eh? Physician heal thyself. BTW - evidence is identical POV, identically spelled misspelled words, one answering for the other, and their posting/editing right after one another as Gorgonzilla and Aquillilon have both done and I have pointed out several times. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 23:37, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
So you hypocritically did "original research" expressed just above after continuing to whine that is what I had done when, in fact, I havn't. That's called " projection". It is still your POV that uses an association member's political registration to characterize his organization. It is also your POV that says Republican=Conservative. I can tell you they are clearly not the same thing. Arlen Specter is a Republican (fact) and is also a liberal (my POV), get it? If you were an Optimist that would not necessarily make the Optimist Club an organisation comprised of a bunch of lunatic fringe left wing extremists. That Bob Williams is a Republican does not necessarily make Evergreen Foundation "conservative." -- JimmyCrackedCorn 18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Then what you have is a liberal paper whose POV agrees with yours. Is anyone surprised? As you said below the appropriate Wikipedia way to use that is by saying "The Washington Daily News (circulation 36, 52 on Sundays) says the Evergreen is a "conservative" organization. It is not a given that Evergreen Foundation is conservative. It is a fact your LW extremist paper describes them as conservative. Do you understand the difference? My guess is no. You've never demonsrated much of a depth of comprehension. --
JimmyCrackedCorn
18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Again a fringe liberal source labels something they think is to the right of them "conservative." and again that is clear POV. Whether or not their POV matches yours makes no difference. It is POV. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
You had posted none in the edit despite my moving that comment here for discussion. Your sockpuppet Aquilion posted only one but one talked about Nagin as a Republican but never made clear he flip-flopped. IOW it made my case, not yours. Do I need to sort through these new sources to find out where your lie is wrt them now? -- JimmyCrackedCorn 18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Odd your "friend" Aquilion misspells buses the exact same way, eh? The way you spelled the word means "kisses." I DIDN'T criticize Nagin in the buses section. I outlined specific facts. Show me the sentence where I criticized him. I included and cited NBC's Lisa Myers' criticism, not mine. I also linked to an ABC Nightline video that shows an evacuee criticizing "local government." Not me. I did exactly what you accused me of not doing. Then you lied to Katefan0 about my sources, claiming I included only a local news anchor and one AP photo, when in fact I had 7 national sources all of which agreed with one another. Why do you and your sockpuppet lack the capacity to grasp this?" --
JimmyCrackedCorn
18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
There are very few times you and I agree but I'm agreed there is very little point in discussing things when you and your sockpuppet continue to use strawmen fallacies to effect your POV, refuse to consider that Nagin's duties are important in an article about Nagin, and falsely claim NBC's Lisa Myers' criticism is my criticism of Nagin. I've repeatedly said Nagin is as much victim as villian. He was clearly victimized by the Governess who didn't set up evacuation shelters in non-risk parishes. That sealed Nagin's and New Orleans' fate more than any sin of omission or comission by Nagin. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
That third tier aspect is precisely why you and your sockpuppet cling to using Evergreen as a source. What good is a
strawman you can't knock down, eh? It's yet another reason why it's clear your composition is sloppy, poor quality and very POV. --
JimmyCrackedCorn
18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Nagin's response to the disaster is obviously fair game for this article, including some mention of criticsm. The challenge is to mention it fairly without overdoing it. I propose:
Most Louisiana lawmakers avoided pointing the finger at local leaders. But Nagin was criticized by some newspaper editorial writers for not handling evacuation procedures properly. In particular, Nagin has taken heat for allowing hundreds of New Orleans' municipal buses — which were to be used for evacuating poor or elderly people — to sit idle in parking lots that eventually flooded. [41] On an appearance on Meet the Press, Nagin said the buses sat unused because there was no one to drive them.
I'm not wedded to this, but it's time to start proposing something instead of mudslinging. · Katefan0 (scribble) 12:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't be insipid. That Nagin said, "...one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here..." is a fact. Encyclopedias don't need a critic to say Nagin said that before it is included. Facts are facts and belong in an encyclopedia just as much as what critics say about people. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 21:29, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
No one stated your interperetation but you. You are again usng the same straw man fallacy you've been corrected on numerous times in both your Aquillon and Gorgonzilla personae. Borrowing from Russell Honore "Don't get stuck on stupid." -- JimmyCrackedCorn 00:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
You characterized SEWilco's interpretation and embedded that characterization in quotes and are now claiming your characterization is an acceptable quote. That is not only a straw man, you have just been caught in an obvious lie, yet again. Lies, especially when in characterization of other's statements, are bad faith. See to it that you and your "friend" Gorgonzilla don't lie again. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 01:43, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Katefan's text is not bad writing. I'd support it as long as it also included the reference to the state document that declares evacuation the responsibility of the local Parish and the item about the 16 year old without a commercial license who drove the 1st group of evacuees in a schoolbus to the Reliant Astrodome. The section should also make clear Governor Blanco did not set up evacuation centers in non-risk parishes for Nagin to take evacuees. -- DKorn 20:34, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Do you often bury facts you find inconvenient? That Nagin was responsible for the evacuation is critical to even discussing Hurricane Katrina under Nagin's bio. Above you claimed that Nagin was responsible for evacuation is tautology. Now you're worried someone might learn the truth and formulate an opinion you find unappealing. Make up your mind. Whould you bury the fact Hitler invaded Poland because that fact tilted to one POV over another? What's wrong with the truth again? A clear and mitigating factor in Nagin's refusal to employ the buses in evacuation was that the Governor did not provide him any evacuation shelters in non-risk parishes as required under the state evacuation plan. Including Nagin's responsibility without mentioning Blanco's would be clear POV. Omitting a description of Nagin's and Blanco's responsibilies is also clearly POV. According to someone I'm sure you admire, Molly Ivans, "The press' sins of omission are more flagrant than their sins of comission." -- JimmyCrackedCorn 01:33, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree wholehearedly that Nagin's responsibilities for Hurricane Katrina don't belong in the criticism section but elsewhere. His resonsibilities are a point of fact not criticism. I think DKorn tried to make the responsibilities it's own section several times due to such objections but Aquillon/Gorgonzilla reverted it out several times in their/his revert war. DKorn even brought that section here on the discussion page for comment. An editor called Jentizzle said naming Nagin head of evacuation was POV and an Admin type agreed with her. Therefore, that statement needed the support of the Louisiana evacuation document. Even if you and I think Nagin's responsibility to evacuate is obvious enough to be tautology apparently many don't see it that way. --
JimmyCrackedCorn
00:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
http://mediamatters.org/items/200509070003
the truth of this assertion rests on Bob William's shoulders. whitehouse.org is mum on the subject. the only call that referances can be found to on google are the sun. sept 28th 9AM call to Gov Blanco.
this doesn't sound like something that belongs on wikepedia. -- 66.92.144.73 07:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Well of course not. However, one editor with multiple personalities loves LW blogs like media matters and DailyKos. --
DKorn
20:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Nagin is now making the rounds via the humor-email network: http://www.ilovekarlrove.com/pix/print_blamegame.pdf
JimmyCrackedCorn recently created Mayor Nagin and the Evacuation By School Buses Controversy, a fork which contains only the disputed bus section. They then created Nagin (disambiguation), which linked only to that article and this one, and redirected Nagin to that disambig. Since disambiguation pages are not ment to be used for multiple articles on the same subject, but for articles on different subjects with names that have a potental to be confused, I went ahead and changed the Nagin redirect back and redirected Nagin (disambiguation) here. The fork is still there for now. -- Aquillion 22:20, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
You have yet to explain what is POV about well sourced facts appearing in either place. Care to take a "Crack" at it? -- JimmyCrackedCorn 00:27, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
So are you Katefan's mini me? She is capable of speaking for herself but neither of you are capable of explaining what is POV, inaccurate or even unsupported text in an article that has no such text. You share that trait of answering for others with your "friend" Gorgonzilla, don't you? It's not surprising you and your sockpuppet would have so much in common. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
This is the same trick that 'Jimmy' tried with ' First Responder'. He is clearly demonstrating that his objective here is to peddle propaganda. He is projecting like mad, what he accuses others of 'lying', sockpuppetry and POV describes only himself. -- Gorgonzilla 12:30, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Apologies if this is not the appropriate place for this, but since it's come up so many times, and happened almost entirely on this page, I thought I should mention that I finally have more or less concrete evidence (or as concrete as anyone is ever going to get) that DKorn ( talk · contribs) and JimmyCrackedCorn ( talk · contribs) are the same person. The similarities in posting style, sequental appearance with a line of other socks and anons, recent registrations, and other behavioral things have all been discussed at length; but I thought I should bring people's attention to these diffs:
Recently, JimmyCrackedCorn accidently posted while not logged in. Note that they were logged in for the earlier challenge to KateFan0 they refer to there, and note that their other contributions while not logged in exactly follow what JimmyCrackedCorn was doing at the time. Therefore, JimmyCrackedCorn is 12.74.187.165.
12.74.187.** is one of the IPs used by Long John Silver, who (thankfully for us) never registered under that name and always posted while logged out, but signed his name and left his IP address visible: [44] [45].
More commonly, though, Long John Silver posted under 209.247.222.**: [46] [47] [48].
And when DKorn made the same mistake as LongJohnSilver and posted while logged out, what did we see? Surprise! DKorn is 209.247.222.**, aka Long John Silver, aka JimmyCrackedCorn. -- Aquillion 02:23, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
To remove any lingering doubt, JimmyCrackedCorn has just been reworking his own statements here, alternately logging in and out as 209.247.222.** Aquillion 03:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't get stuck on stupid. I've already told you My ISP is shared with millions. I use ATT Worldnet as do several others here I'm quite sure. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:43, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
IOW you'd rather divert attention from the article's content to ancillary issues. How typically libertine of you. I'm going to guess you are on Aquillon/Gorgonzilla's buddy list. You seem to come a-runnin' whenever either of those two issue yet another whine. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 06:17, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Gorgonzilla and Aquillion have answered for one another numerous times. They have both been caught in lies and both have identical POV's. If they aren't sockpuppets they are stooges of one aother. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Another addition to this list: Kirby Morgan ( talk · contribs). Not quote so sure about this one; I wasn't even going to mention it at first. They registered at about the same time as many of the socks listed above, and almost immediately came here and reverted during a period when JimmyCrackedCorn had just used 3 reverts, but they've been on a few other articles as well. The thing that convinced me was the edit history for Godwin's law, specifically these two edits: [49] [50]. Account Kirby Morgan is used to make an edit; someone else promptly reverts. Two days later 209.247.222.** arrives, with no other history on the page, and mostly reverts back to Kirby Morgan's version. Mainly bringing this one up because Kirby Morgan was used to vote on the Mayor Nagin and the Evacuation By School Buses Controversy AfD. -- Aquillion 01:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Please explain what you think is POV about the text below. I'm already aware of the objection to placing this in a section labeled criticism and even agree with that objection. I'm looking for specific sentences that are wrong or POV in something akin to the bullet list I provided with what is wrong with the article in its current form. I'm not looking for general complaints or more personal ad hominem attacks. Please place your comments in the section just below. Thanks. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 16:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
City Government Responsibility
The Louisiana State Evacuation Plan [51] declares, "The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating" in Part 1 Section D. The state evacuation plan also assigns evacuation to each Parish with the language {the parish will} "Conduct and control local evacuation in parishes located in the risk area and manage reception and shelter operations in parishes located in the host area" in Part 1 Section D. The responsibility for carrying out the evacuation in Orleans Parish fell upon the Mayor of the Parish - Ray Nagin. [52]
State Government Responsibility
The Louisiana State Evacuation Plan [53] mandates the Governor shall find evacuation shelter in non-risk Parishes to accommodate evacuees from Parishes at risk (Part 1, section D1d) with the following language:
The Federal Emergency Management Agency is responsible for assisting local authorities when requested by the state authorities to respond to natural disasters as a secondary or tertiary responder. State and local authorities are considered first responders.
Use of Buses for Evacuation During and After Hurricane Katrina
The mayor stated on September 1, 2005 that he rejected the use of school buses and insisted that someone provide Greyhound buses. Nagin said in a WWL radio interview, "I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had - they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here. I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans." [54]
Later, on a September 11, 2005 appearance on NBC's Meet the Press responding to a question by moderator Tim Russert, Nagin claimed 550 municipal buses and hundreds of additional school buses at his disposal sat unused because there was no one to drive them. Nagin said, "Sure, here was lots of buses out there. But guess what? You can't find drivers that would stay behind with a Category 5 hurricane, you know, pending down on New Orleans. We barely got enough drivers to move people on Sunday, or Saturday and Sunday, to move them to the Superdome. We barely had enough drivers for that. So sure, we had the assets, but the drivers just weren't available." [55]
However, the very first bus to arrive at the Reliant Astrodome with New Orleans evacuees was a New Orleans school bus driven by an evacuee, 20 year old Jabbar Gibson, who commandeered it. By that time most New Orleans buses were flooded after the hurricane and subsequent levee failure and unable to make the trip. [56] A story [57] that appeared in the Chicago Tribune indicates Laidlaw, Inc was willing to loan the city to help in the emergency but they also could not provide drivers. There is no indication Nagin ever sought volunteer drivers from among the evacuees.
NBC's veteran reporter Lisa Myers reported local authorities had not used New Orleans' school buses or Regional Transit Authority (RTA) buses to evacuate the city's stranded poor during the Hurricane Katrina emergency. The city authorities also parked those buses where they were flooded after the levee break according to Myers. [58] The Associated Press and Reuters have both captured images of the flooded buses. [59], [60] and [61] According to Myers, "A draft emergency plan, prepared by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and obtained by NBC News, calls for '400 buses to ... evacuate victims.' Yet those 200 buses were left in Katrina's path."
The bus situation was not lost on at least one New Orleans evacuee, Connie London, interviewed by ABC's Nightline Reporter Dean Reynolds at the Reliant Astrodome. The evacuee cites the bus flooding as her major criticism of the performance of city and state officials in handling Hurricane Katrina. [62] Video (wmv file, 00:54 seconds)
However, as Jesse Jackson has pointed out on FoxNews' Hannity and Colmes September 13, 2005 there was nowhere the mayor could have sent the evacuees by bus. On the orders of Col Terry J Ebbert, Governor Kathleen Blanco's head of her state's Homeland Security Department. [63] the Superdome in New Orleans would be the city's only evacuation shelter despite the Governor's responsibility to establish evacuation shelters in "non-risk parishes" according to the Louisiana's Evacuation Plan (Part 1, Section D1).
I know at least one person thinks this doesn't belong in criticism. I even agree. The text here is point of fact not point of criticism, or in my opinion also not point of view. But please tell me what the POV text is in your opinion. I'm really trying to understand the objections here. --
JimmyCrackedCorn
16:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for a response. Now can you provide specifics? How does this do any of what you allege? How for example do my Nagin quotes misrepresent Nagin's claims about why he didn't use the buses for evacuation as called for in the state evacuation plan? As for your general criticism - that it's too long for the Nagin bio article - I'd agree. That's why it needs a fork. Not a POV fork, but a fork. We need to remove any POV text that can be identified. That's why I'm asking what is POV or inaccurate about the text. -- 12.74.187.215 17:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
What you may still fail to comprehend from your activist paradigm is I am not making an argument, I am reporting a series of related and interrelated events. That you cannot provide any specifics on what you think is POV, inaccurate, or even unsupported about what I have written although you have labeled it as such speaks volumes. Given your track record what makes you think you have the requisite objectivity to facilitate compromise language?? -- JimmyCrackedCorn 01:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
And I'm not surprised you can't provide any either. There is no POV, inaccurate or unsupported text in the article. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Look, I don't mind compromise, but Katefan0's approach to it is a bit daft. Katefan0 and his/her fellow editors are being a tad exclusionist by stating "Take it or leave it" whith their information, forcing people to waste time reading a large amount of confusing scrabble in order to get anywhere with a contribution. This leads to such things as censorship. If information is pertinent, if information is useful, if information is encyclopedic, if the sources are cited, then information should be included in the article. People are too trigger-happy sometimes when someone they don't know edits "their" article, and this violates the spirit of Wikipedia - after all, we're supposed to be an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. This is Wikipedia's Ray Nagin article, not Katefan0's Ray Nagin article. That is the main reason I made the reverts that I did, regardless of JimmyCrackedCorn's attitude or the attitudes of those arguing with him/her. — Rickyrab | Talk 16:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I have requested that this page be unprotected, on the grounds that Mayor Nagin is involved in a current event or two (Hurricanes Katrina and Rita), even though there may be a dispute between editors about the main page. Agree or disagree? Answer below, please; I initially suggested Wikipedia:Requests for page protection and unprotection as a forum, but it appears they do not want that as a forum. Dang. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I would not normally consider this article a candidate for protection, even if it were not related to an event in the news. There seems to have been some squabbling about content shortly before protection was imposed, but no significant revert warring. One IP number inserted a POV comment about Nagin's leadership abilities. This is really par for the course. I don't understand why there is so much venom on this talk page, or precisely at whom it is directed. Couldn't we have a little assumption of good faith, please? I think you're all doing just fine. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:57, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
It's rhetorical questions like Gorgonzilla's above that make me wonder if we're looking at the same article. The report on WP:AN3 is from 13th September, the article was protected on 22nd September. What you say about a certain editor's behavior may or may not be entirely true, but it doesn't explain why you think the article should be reprotected now. If he's such a bad egg, wouldn't it be giving him undeserved attention to go to the extent of protecting an article that isn't under attack, just because you think that he might do so? -- Tony Sidaway Talk 22:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the whole following bit doesn't really relate to Nagin; it would belong on Blanco's page, Hurricane Katrina, or someplace similar, but is, I'm sure, already covered on all those places. Nagin's name isn't even mentioned anywhere, though, and it seems to have to do with state/federal discussions rather than anything related to the city. The only reason it became as long as it did, I think, is because it was at the center of arguments that spilled onto this page from elsewhere. Does anyone have any reason why these paragraphs...
...shouldn't just be removed from the article? -- Aquillion 06:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
If the army of liberals that run this site are only going to candy coat everything, what is the point of having an encylopedia that anyone can edit?
A bunch of us include quotes that Ray himself, actually said.
Imagine this: I'm a space alien, and I land on this planet, and want to learn about Katrina and Ray Nagin. I go to Ray's entry, and read.
"Wow!" I think. "What the hell is wrong with that American Gov't!? Nagin did all he could, and that lousy GOP-led government screwed over everyone with total mismanagement".
But in FACT, in documented, widely-accepted fact:
Ray Nagin had no experience in handling these disasters Ray Nagin did not follow his own city, state emergency plan Ray Nagin did not use the 215 buses he was SUPPOSED to use Ray Nagin screamed, ranted and raved like a lunatic
No person would learn these historical FACTS if they read the Nagin entry here.
So again, I ask: What is the point?
Why dont' you libs just make up whatever nonesense you want, work your iMacs into a frenzy, and simply rename the site: Libipedia. At least that way, everyone will know that this place is the liberal view of the world.
The issue of the buses will be decided by a committee of enquiry - if there ever is one. It will not be decided here. The New Orleans plan was to evacuate to the superdome. This was done successfully before the storm hit. The problem was the subsequent evacuation of the superdome after the storm. -- Gorgonzilla 04:22, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps there is a better way to record the phone conversation Nagin had in a daughter article. I'm taking it out as it is longer than the biography itself and doesn't add much to the article.-- MONGO 07:59, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 |
Restored RECENT TALK comments that should NOT be hidden in archieve the SAME DAY they are written. TALK is where consensus and respect is given to differing points of view. Kyle Andrew Brown 16:42, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I saw this section some time ago and it cleared up a lot of questions for me. I've added a bit to it with Gorgonzilla's help. He provided me a link to the federal plan that further defined and reinforced the state plan's elucidation of Nagin's responsibilities. Yet a few here who seem to think these verbatim quotes sourced to official government documents are POV and should not be included. I still don't understand their "logic." They have blanked this complete section several times. Please take a look at the section and give me your opinion on what changes should be made and/or why this section should or shouldn't be included in the article: Thanks -- DKorn 05:19, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Mayor Nagin's Hurricane Katrina Responsibilities
Mayor Nagin's responsibility during Hurricane Katrina was to act as chief parish administrator in ensuring the responsibilities of the parish under both the federal plan, called simply the Federal Response Plan, [1] and the state plan, called the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Evacuation and Sheltering Plan [2] were properly accomplished. Chief among the Nagin's responsibilities was to manage designated evacuation shelters and ensure the evacuation of those who could not evacuate on their own.
The federal plan assigns the evacuation responsibility to the local level with this language (p. FSF #8-13) [3]:
The state plan cites the Mayor's responsibility in the following language (Part 1 Section C2b and Part 1, Section D7) [4]:
Other critical paragraphs (Part 2,Section B5 and Part 2 Section B12):
A statement in the plan that defines the Governor's responsibility toward Parishes is (Part II Section B17):
The plan bears the signature of Nagin's predecessor certifying Orleans Parish's agreement or acceptance of this responsibility and the signature of Governor Kathleen Blanco indicating the Governor's agreement or acceptance.
It should be noted, the Governor's responsibility notwithstanding, the Superdome (in a risk Parish), was the only designated shelter for residents of the city of New Orleans. [5] "
I think it hurts the credibility of both the Wikipedia and Nagin if criticisms of him are simply omitted. These criticisms are being made, and so they should on some level be presented here, regardless of whether we consider them valid. Instead, we are simply acting as a sounding board for the mayor's own opinions, rather than providing a neutral perspective on the controversies surrounding him. Moreover, I happen to think that most of the criticisms weighed against Nagin are invalid, and by neglecting to mention them, we have the additional effect of perpetuating them. On the other hand, if we balance out all of the unverified claims with statements to the effect that "the accuracy of this claim has not been verified", etc., we avoid the possibility that people will suspect the Wikipedia of sharing these unverified claims. This seems to me, the much better approach.
And to say that the neutrality of the article is not in dispute is ridiculous. It clearly is. 65.241.152.139 21:24, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
DUDE, I've read this article and many articles in the history. It appears a very well sourced (to an official Louisiana Document) section on Nagin's responsibilities under the evacuation plan keeps being deleted. There was a comment I read that this came from a Right Wing blog yet the truth is the section came from the official document. Why is that section objectionable?? Criticism of Nagin, sourced or unsourced, makes no sense unless what he was supposed to do is explained. I'm clearly stating here and now that's why I'm re-adding the section. If you or anyone else removes it or reverts to an article without the section, I expect you or they to clearly state why that has been done. Or do rules only apply to certain people? -- DKorn 01:14, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
GORGONZILLA, I'd like to remind you of a Wikipedia policy I just happened upon and you have apparantly ignored
[7]
In other words, you would like to MISdirect everyone away from the issue of Nagin's responsibilities and toward a personal attack. My ISP is ATT Worldnet. It is shared by millions of others. I am not the person you claim I am. However, even accurately making such a claim is in direct violation of Wikipedia's rule prohibiting Presonal Attacks. Here is that rule (2nd item in the list) [8]:
Your personal attack has been reported and your refusal to defend your edit here before you chose to make a personal attack has been noted. Comments also placed on Aquillon's talk page. Aquillon has yet to reply on my talk page as per Wikipedia's strongly suggested practices. Has this place always been a sewer? -- DKorn 19:21, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
WRONG. Not Long John Silver, but more importantly your thesis is wrong as well. My referencing two official government documents isn't original research. Anyone can follow my sources and find the same things I used in my edit. I not only provided links, I provided page numbers and sections as well. Original research is something that can't be verified, such as if I were to post my statistical study on the effect of Hurricanes Ivan, Jeanne, Francis and Charley on the Atlantic Kingfish populations. In the latter case, you would have no access to my raw data and therefore could not verify my conclusions. Once published I can link my study as a reference as it will then be available to all. Capice?
Didn't you even read what you linked? It clearly says:
My quotes were verbatim excerpts of the official documents (I even used Adobe's C&P feature on the federal one) available to all just one click away. Not original. -- DKorn 22:03, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I didn't issue any conclusions in the section. I merely provided what the documents define Nagin's responsibilities to be and added one of Blanco's responsibilities that impacted upon Nagin. That's not a conclusion. A conclusion would involve an analysis of whether Nagin successfully accomplished his responsibilities. That clearly wasn't in the section. -- DKorn 05:36, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Beyond, CLEARLY STATE WHAT YOU ADD AND REMOVE TO AN ARTICLE. If you edit parts about criticism AND when the requests for federal assistance came, SAY SO! As a heads up, people (or maybe just one person) have been routinely replacing whole sections of the article, removing lots of properly sourced info and then neglecting to mention it.
If your criticism of Mayor Nagin is based upon your vast knowledge of the Mayor and New Orleans as so conveyed by the national media since Katrina, then you are as unqualified to give commentary as the reporters calling the I-10 bridge the Causeway, stating that water flowing over a levee at one point was flowing into, rather than correctly out of, the city, calling the 9th Ward "a section of the French Quarter". Let the story play itself out and the let the chips fall where they may. But you will see in the end that Ray Nagin did an excellent job given the hand he was dealt, and nobody who's sole source of information has been the national media at this point has any business whatsoever in casting stones at the Mayor.
All this talk about "preparing the Superdome" to be an evacuation center is ridiculous. Any New Orleanian knows it was a "shelter of last resort" and knows it was a place to seek self-supplied refuge from the elements and knows it was meant only for those who had absolutely no way out of the city. Who had no way out of the city you may ask. Not the poor. New Orleans is a driving city. A perpetual summer heat index of 115 degrees makes it so. Everyone either has or knows someone who has a car. Too poor to pay for a hotel? Shelters are always available and, though they may not be the most pleasant environment, they are as comfortable as the school buses people suggest having been used. It's just too bad hurricanes don't cause profuse sweating days in advance, maybe people would have used their cars to get out of the city and Nagin would only have had to deal with the people who genuinely could not have gotten out.
Then regarding his supposed delays for evacuation, did any of you actually see the press conferences before the hurricane or is it just what you heard was supposedly said via the media? Did any of you hear him begging people to leave, telling them this is a killer storm, telling them he could not order a "mandatory evacuation" solely because of legal reasons but that you have absolutely no business being here despite this formality. Does anyone realize that Orleans Parish has its own set of laws seperate from those of its neighboring parishes which very well could have caused him to not act as they did. Does anyone here know about the details of the contraflow plan mandating an order by parish of evacuation. I didn't think so.
I'm getting the idea now. This is a pro-Nagin article. Any link that criticises Nagin is insufficient. Anyone that criticises Nagin is a "sockpuppet" or a pawn or any of the other names that people here are called. And now, we are being told that "Encyclopedic articles are not the the place for such criticism"? Fine. Will the George W. Bush article be changed to reflect that? Of course not.
Anyone care to look at this Wall Street Journal article "Blame Amid the Tragedy - Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin failed their constituents" [9]? I quote, "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation."
"...even though the city has enough school and transit buses to evacuate 12,000 citizens per fleet run, the mayor did not use them"
Oh, I forgot - no link is sufficient to claim that the phone call existed, or that the school busses were under water. Even Yahoo pictures are insufficient, huh?
"Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed"
Has Gorgonzolla violated the 3RR rule? How many times has he violated it?
I'm beginning to get the picture, and I NOW understand Wikipedia. The purpose of this is to present biased and prejudiced political opinions. Anyone that questions those opinions is attacked.
It cracks me up now that some of the same documents I originally referenced - documents such as the New Orleans evacuation plan, and Bianco's letter on her .gov website - are now being referenced by CNN, Fox News, and MSNBC. Corwin8 00:36, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
O.K., Aquillion, maybe I mispoke. If, for example, I wrote something like: Reporter John Smith remarked that Mayor Ray Nagin failed to put the toilet seat down. [10] Is that the proper format? Corwin8 05:46, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The POV deletions I have made do not imply that the content deleted is inaccurate. However, as an encyclopedia article content must be constructed that refrains from appearing to be the opinion of the writer. The article can state that an individual said ____ regarding _____. But the content cannot make conclusions based upon those statements. The statements must speak for themselves. Deletions do not imply a bias against Nagin. Deletions are an indication to writers that content must be factual and not opinionated. When, for example, the Governor is quoted as saying "I think the mayor..." that is her opinion and is appropriate for inclusion in the article. To begin the quote saying "The mayor flip flopped when he" is an opinion by the writer of the action. However, to state, "When the mayor did ___ then ____ was the result" that is a statement of fact. Journo 101. Kyle Andrew Brown 07:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
This is the "Dueling Criticisms" which has been removed from the article for POV:
Thats alright, we have all seen it again, and again and again and again. Long John Silver keeps reverting to the version of this article he wrote several days ago and has been rejected as POV by every single other editor apart from his sockpuppets. It isn't even repeating GOP talking points (which would be notable even if POV) it is his own set of personal theories based on rumours he read on Powerline and Little Green Footballs. -- Gorgonzilla 14:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
(summary of earlier debate) It is really quite simple. If you want to report criticism of the article simply state who is making the satement. 'Some people say' is not an acceptable citation for partisan criticism in a dictionary. The Evergreen Foundation has been circulating most of the blog conspiracy theories to the mainstream media including the Wall Street Journal and CNN. So this is not all that hard. A comment in Powerline blog is NOT notable criticism -- Gorgonzilla 14:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
(Response to Corwin8) by KAB: The POV deletions I have made do not imply that the content deleted is inaccurate. However, as an encyclopedia article content must be constructed that refrains from appearing to be the opinion of the writer. The article can state that an individual said ____ regarding _____. But the content cannot make conclusions based upon those statements. The statements must speak for themselves. Deletions do not imply a bias against Nagin. Deletions are an indication to writers that content must be factual and not opinionated. When, for example, the Governor is quoted as saying "I think the mayor..." that is her opinion and is appropriate for inclusion in the article. To begin the quote saying "The mayor flip flopped when he" is an opinion by the writer of the action. However, to state, "When the mayor did ___ then ____ was the result" that is a statement of fact. Journo 101. Kyle Andrew Brown 07:11, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
I've noticed that all of the criticisms of Nagin so far just state that "people" have criticized him, or that he has "faced criticism". This is unencyclopedic; criticisms need to be traced to a specific source before they can be placed in an enyclopedia article. Likewise, if they don't have a specific source, they can't be here--people can't just come up with their own criticisms of Nagin and put them in the article. Aquillion 20:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
What is wrong with AP & Reuters photos backed with an NBC report from a veteran NBC reporter? Especially after certain editors here have readily accepted LW blog BS from only one extremely biased LW blog. That bit of maniacal "selectivity" clearly seems like biased POV. Is there some kind of organised group of LW morons here? I'll wait exactly 2 hours for someone to convince me why the 3 mainstream media sources, including a veteran reporter, all saying the same thing are somehow illegitimate while lunatic leftist blogs aren't. Then, if you fail to convince me, I'm going to re-ad the section I've posted for comment/consensus just below. After that point, if it's removed again, I will report the vandal. You have already been warned against vandalism right inside the article. Apparently some editors here have refined repeated vandalism to an artform.
Here is the section:
--
JimmyCrackedCorn
03:28, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This is the first I've been here. Even an idiot should know any driver suffices in an emergency including an evacuee and Hurricane Katrina was clearly an emergency. School buses even have automatic transmissions. There was also even a young man barely out of his teens who stole a school bus and successfully drove several evacuees to the Astrodome. [16] He is a hero. So don't give me that red herring.
As for your other very weak objection - that this isn't a criticism because no one says "I criticize the Mayor" in the article - you should be reminded the section I added the paragraph to is called "Criticism of Relief Efforts." It is not called "Criticism of Mayor Nagin." Myers very clearly criticized the relief efforts in her article. But in the spirit of concillation I've decided to accept your "point." To remedy the problem you have claimed exists, I will make the Mayor's failure to use the school and RTA buses that were later flooded their very own section in the Nagin article. Do not delete it again or your vandalism will be reported. If you wish to make minor modifications to the new section bring your discussion on the topic here before you do. Someone here posted a Wikipedia rule I've repeated above. See that you don't "forget" it again.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution
-- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Aquillon, are you actively disagreeing with the editor who often appears to be your sockpuppet? I've moved "his" summary to just below this text. As you can see in the article's section on buses, I provided 2 well linked Major Network News sources with a mainstream veteran reporter and even 2 corroberating News Wire services. I've also linked an Official Government Document. All these sources are in agreement on the buses matter. Your "friend" Gorgonzilla says only 1 Network News Source needs to be produced for the bus story to be valid for inclusion. There was no personal opinion in the section I wrote, but if there was I encourage you to point it out here on the discussion page and make whatever minor edits are required to eliminate it. My sourcing goes well beyond your/his requirements. Why are you so worried about people knowing the truth that you would make requirements for inclusion of this section a moving target? Could it be you can't reasonably divorce your Wikipedia edits from your own extreme LW POV? --
JimmyCrackedCorn
18:08, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
GORGONZILLA's TEXT: (summary of earlier debate) Its really quite simple, just find a notable (i.e. top 10 blog, major national newspaper, cable news, network news) source for the claim and do not insert personal interpretation into the statement. The Hurricane is a major news story, the number 1 news story since it occurred. If a theory stands up it will be reported by a notable source somewhere. I suspect the reason the story is not being quoted is that as Mongo points out nobody predicted in advance that it would take FEMA 5 days to arrive at the Superdome. The superdome was expected to weather the storm in one piece. -- Gorgonzilla 14:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Your number of edits means nothing more than you and Gorgonzilla have been sockpuppets of one another for a long time. As for your allegation that I changed Gorgonzilla's paragraph, I changed nothing. I'm not going to say you are a liar. Even though you haven't honored wikipedia's policy of assuming good intentions I'll just say that you and Gorgonzilla are both very prone to make very similar "mistakes" that are all in your favor. Here is a link to the very discussion page edit where Gorgonzilla first put the paragraph in the buses section I cited. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Ray_Nagin&oldid=22844375 and here is a link to where Gorgonzilla adds the line about Mongo. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Ray_Nagin&oldid=22845990 I'll let others determine you are a liar after going to the links. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 17:40, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
Follow the link. Gorgonzilla clearly places your requirements under the section of talk labeled "The School Buses Claim." That means you and your sockpuppet will accept the school buses claim as long as someone just find a notable (i.e. top 10 blog, major national newspaper, cable news, network news) source for the claim and do not insert personal interpretation into the statement. I've well exceeded that. So honor your word. Or explain why my 2 Network media sources, 2 news wire sources and an official Government Document aren't as good as your foolisf LW extremist blog - DailyKos. I'm replacing the section and also removing any claim about Nagin's Party affiliation until you or that other vandal finds a source. This article has been junk since your/Gorgonzilla's very first edit here. I've read the history. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 22:15, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
coming from. That is not the way an encyclopedia works.
Don't be a clown. You were the one who whined about the buses being in the criticism section. That was why I granted you special consideration and made it it's own section. Are you now saying you or your sockpuppet made the "mimstake?"
The mayor's party is not "common knowlege" and you have no source. Find one and I'll let the edit slide and even protect your claim against vandals. Don't find one and it stays gone. Clear? I have had a source for everything I've written here. It goes. It is not of sufficient quality for Wikipedia and you should examine your own capabilities. Most of your edits seem to be of insufficient quality. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 00:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
NBC's Lisa Myers is clearly a critic as was the evacuee Connie London. Since bizarrely you claimed Myers was not criticizing the mayor, I accomodated you by moving it to a new section that didn't mention criticism but only gave a staid explanation of the facts. But we both know your real objection is to having the truth about the situation appear in the article, don't we? The mayor was responsible for the evacuation and it was the mayor's charge under the state plan to evacuate the poor using school and other buses. That is clear from the state plan. As such it is clear as long as a Hurricane Katrina section appears in the article, the section about the buses belongs. The fact Nagin didn't arrange evacuation is easily balanced by the fact that Gov. Kathleen Blanco nver arranged for Nagin to send evacuees in non-risk parishes. Nagin is as much victim as villian, IMO. I'm sure Blanco was none to happy with his anti-corruption campaign.
Since you don't agree evacuation was Nagin's responsibility, who do you claim was responsible for New Orleans' evacuation? What is your basis for that claim? Do you have a link to anything beside a lunatic left wing blog that supports your position? Your source for the Mayor's party affiliation says nothing about his switching sides to the Democrat Party, so I still consider his party affiliation unsettled. Here is what your source says about party: "A married Republican with three children, Nagin says a conversation with one of his kids made him want to lead New Orleans. If he succeeded, a mountain of headaches and $110,000 per year awaited." As for the Mayor's photo, it was removed in error, but it is an unflattering photo. But I'd rather it stay for now until something a bit more distinguished can be found. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 03:45, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Hurricane Katrina#Evacuation and emergency shelters already makes specific mention of the school bus situation. Would it make sense to merge with that?
Also, the claims of vandalism here are rather silly. Vandalism, by definition, involves bad faith. What's happening here is an edit war. -- Jasonuhl 07:11, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
If the school bus section is left here also it makes sense to bring the section with very credible references there too. In fact, I think I will. It clearly belongs in the Nagin article too since, as the section points out with reference to official government documents, Nagin, as head of the parish, was responsible for the evacuation and had the authority to use the parishes school buses to execute his charge. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 22:54, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
The school bus photo with caption ran under the Associated Press. That Matt Drudge or the New York Times has referenced it, makes it no less credible. It needs to stay. --HazeGray
138.162.0.46
15:32, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone (won't make any assumptions here) attempted to re-insert the "unused" school buses theory in the article, in much the same manner as LJS, using the very same .jpg as the Drudge Report which I believe LJS did as well. THIS PHOTO DOES NOT SUBSTANTIATE THE THEORY. -- Jentizzle 17:49, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Somebody quote big article here, i shortened it. -- C.levin 23:41, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
MONGO, In this article which deals with Ray Nagin, it is appropriate to include his actions, which describe his mindset. For example: " Nagin said the city would open the Superdome as a special-needs shelter today at 8 a.m. He advised anyone planning to stay there to bring food, drinks and other comforts, such as folding chairs, as if planning to go camping.
Citizens must call 568-3200 to verify that they qualify for admittance to the shelter, city officials said. Phone lines will be open at 7 a.m.
Nagin spokeswoman Tami Frazier stressed that the mayor does not want citizens to plan on staying in the Dome -- instead, they should make arrangements to leave the city if possible.
"We don't anticipate having to turn people away," Frazier said. "But (staying in the Dome) should not be a situation that you're counting on."
Nagin added, "No weapons, no large items, and bring small quantities of food for three or four days, to be safe." ( http://www.nola.com/search/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml?nola)
So, what was meant by "bring (...) food for three or four days"? It reflects Nagin's mindset in regards to the population of New Orleans. Do you read in that statement, that he was expecting FEMA help within that time slot? If not, why didn't Nagin say, just go to the Superdome if you don't have transportation? FEMA has hot meals and showers ready. A quote from the above article should be included in this article. Whyerd 10:04, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
(summary of earlier debate) The claim that Posse Comitatus prevented action by Bush has been disproved by reference to the Wikipedia article which clearly states that the act can be waived by the President in times of emergency. Anyone wanting to resurect the claim should discuss here in talk first. -- Gorgonzilla 14:49, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The following theories have floated around the blogosphere but are not considered notable for the reason given:
The Extended comments by Bush and by the Governor are candidates for shortening. This article is not a debate forum in the sense that we are not here to bring the "evidence" of who is right, who is wrong, who gets blamed, based upon lengthy "transcripts". The transcripts are entirely appropriate as external links that the reader can go to which also have the advantage in their original form of being unfiltered. As they are now presented in the article they are POV filtered. That just does't fly.
Again, its totally appropriate for the article to frame that there is a controversy between the White House and the Governor and the Mayor about responsiblity. However, it cannot be framed using opinionated modifying language juxtaposed next to the quotes. The goal as a content provider is to not let the reader be pointed to the writer's personal POV. If a writer has POV - and any journalist worthy of the name does have a POV, then present it with facts, attribution. Let the other side do the same. Then the reader can weigh the facts presented - and that is their right as a reader of an encyclopedia. If I want to convince you that the President, the Mayor, the Governor is at fault for something then I will turn to another media forum where is is perfectly acceptable to do that.
This is not FOX News or the Madison Capitol Times, oppps, sorry, that's POV sockpuppetry. I apologize. Kyle Andrew Brown 16:54, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
The quotations from the sep1 interview are excessive. A representative quote and a link to the full transcript would be more appropriate. -- Gorgonzilla 19:08, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
Had to give up basically guarding this article with Gorgonzilla for a bit to study for exams. Long John Silver's signature tabloid-news reporter style is so obvious after he's re-written an article it really doesn't matter what alias he uses, does it?
I've told quite a few admin's about this loose cannon rewriting entire articles without a shred of evidence e.g. the sources don't support claims he makes, takes quotes out of context, etc. and worst of all, the way he uses the talk page not to reach consensus with other users but as a soapbox for his whacked theories. Perhaps I'm getting a bit mean now, but this is the sum total of major problems I have had (as well as many others who voice their opinions above) with user's HORRIBLE edits. I can only hope some admin sees this and blocks the MANY different IPs he posts from. -- Jentizzle 02:15, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I think that it will inflate the size of the article beyond what is appropriate, but the one sentance I have been trying to correct from the nagin criticism portion, the part about the superdome not being supplied, keeps returning.
would a point by point pro/con list be acceptable, e.g.
point 1: federal response
pro: [statistics on federal response] e.g. FEMA's response included: http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18461 "FEMA’s Urban Search & Rescue (USAR) and Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) are also staged for immediate response anywhere in the region. The funding and direct federal assistance will assist law enforcement with evacuations, establishing shelters and other emergency protective measures.
FEMA has deployed USAR teams from Tennessee, Missouri and Texas to stage in Shreveport, LA.. USAR teams from Indiana and Ohio are staged in Meridian, MS. Two teams each from Florida and Virginia and one team from Maryland are on alert at their home stations.
A total of 18 DMATs have been deployed to staging areas in Houston, Anniston and Memphis. There are 9 full DMATs (35 members per team) and 9 strike teams (5 members per team) in these staging areas."...
"Eighteen Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) and 3 Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) task forces have been deployed to the region for further dispatch when needed."
by the 31st "More than 1,700 trucks have been mobilized through federal, state and contract sources to supply ice, water and supplies. These supplies and equipment are being moved into the hardest hit areas as quickly as possible, especially water, ice, meals, medical supplies, and generators. It may, however, take several days for supplies and equipment to reach all victims because of damaged and closed roads and bridges." http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=18497
[nagin]con: the federal response to the most dangerous natural disaster in U. S. history was not what could be called "shock, and awe", rather it was seemingly reluctant, disproportionally small, and in many cases put on hold for usually half a week because of red tape when hours and minutes decide the fates of the people unable to escape the path of the hurricane. Nagin has been one of the central figures in the public outcry over the federal government's relief effort.
point 2: superdome (preperation of)
[nagin]pro: stocked with seven truckloads of Meals Ready to Eat, and three truckloads of water
cons: sanitation, underestimation of the number of people to prepare for, lack of generators, airconditioning, national guardsmen, transportation. Supporters of the Federal response have been decrying what they describe, as the local government's failure to properly prepare the superdome, and other shelters for the hurricane.
point 3: superdome (handling of crisis)
pro: after something like a week, they were evacuated
[nagin]con: ignored for days by federal authorities. Nagin has been criticised federal government's assistance with regard to the situation in the superdome
point 4: Local, and State Response
[nagin]Pro: for the most part described as over and above all previous state, and local responses to hurricanes ever before.
cons: republicans from drudge to the President are dumping blame on a group often referred to as "anyone but the Federal Emergency Management Agency, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Executive branch of the U. S. Government". Many republicans have lashed out at Nagin, though few have admitted that they're following the adage that a good offense makes the best defense.
point 5: mass transit
[nagin]pro: ???
con: many critics believe, that, in retrospect, that the use of Mass Transit, especially busses, should have been explored to improve the mandatory evacuation effort that was delayed by uncertainty in the mayor's office. this harsh criticism is also one of the points Republicans make to deflect criticism of the Bush Administration's handling of hurricane Katrina.
-- 66.92.144.73 03:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Thats all very well but the criticism should be cited or people end up deleting it for using weasel terms. The section I added on the Evergreen guys criticism has stayed because it is sourced. I am pretty sure that you will find that the guy has sourced most of the criticisms you are refering to here. -- Gorgonzilla 03:32, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
here's what I think is a good candidate:
points(federal response, Superdome(preperation of), Superdome(handling of emergancy), Local and State response, mass transit)
Pro: FEMA's response included: [18] "FEMA’s Urban Search & Rescue (USAR) and Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) are also staged for immediate response anywhere in the region. The funding and direct federal assistance will assist law enforcement with evacuations, establishing shelters and other emergency protective measures.
FEMA has deployed USAR teams from Tennessee, Missouri and Texas to stage in Shreveport, LA.. USAR teams from Indiana and Ohio are staged in Meridian, MS. Two teams each from Florida and Virginia and one team from Maryland are on alert at their home stations.
A total of 18 DMATs have been deployed to staging areas in Houston, Anniston and Memphis. There are 9 full DMATs (35 members per team) and 9 strike teams (5 members per team) in these staging areas."...
"Eighteen Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) and 3 Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) task forces have been deployed to the region for further dispatch when needed."
by the 31st "More than 1,700 trucks have been mobilized through federal, state and contract sources to supply ice, water and supplies. These supplies and equipment are being moved into the hardest hit areas as quickly as possible, especially water, ice, meals, medical supplies, and generators. It may, however, take several days for supplies and equipment to reach all victims because of damaged and closed roads and bridges."
(Nagin)Con: the federal response to the most dangerous natural disaster in U. S. history was not what could be called "shock, and awe", rather it was seemingly reluctant, disproportionally small, and in many cases put on hold for usually half a week because of red tape when hours and minutes decide the fates of the people unable to escape the path of the hurricane. Nagin has been one of the central figures in the public outcry over the federal government's relief effort.
(lifted verbatum from the earlier article) On September 1, 2005, Nagin expressed his frustration and anger at the response of other government officials and the lack of aid to the city of New Orleans in an emotional interview with Garland Robinette, on radio station WWL:
You know what really upsets me, Garland? We told everybody the importance of the 17th Street Canal issue. We said, "Please, please take care of this. We don't care what you do. Figure it out."
[...]
And they allowed that pumping station next to Pumping Station 6 to go under water. Our sewage and water board people ... stayed there and endangered their lives. And what happened when that pumping station went down, the water started flowing again in the city, and it starting getting to levels that probably killed more people.
[...]
So there's no water flowing anywhere on the east bank of Orleans Parish. So our critical water supply was destroyed because of lack of action.
[...]
There is nothing happening. And they're feeding the public a line of bull and they're spinning, and people are dying down here.
[...]
I don't want to see anybody do anymore goddamn press conferences. Put a moratorium on press conferences. Don't do another press conference until the resources are in this city. And then come down to this city and stand with us when there are military trucks and troops that we can't even count.
[...]
But we authorized $8 billion to go to Iraq lickety-quick. After 9/11, we gave the president unprecedented powers lickety-quick to take care of New York and other places.
Now, you mean to tell me that a place where most of your oil is coming through, a place that is so unique when you mention New Orleans anywhere around the world, everybody's eyes light up -- you mean to tell me that a place where you probably have thousands of people that have died and thousands more that are dying every day, that we can't figure out a way to authorize the resources that we need? Come on, man.
[...]
Don't tell me 40,000 people are coming here. They're not here. It's too doggone late. Now get off your asses and do something, and let's fix the biggest goddamn crisis in the history of this country.
Expanding on his statements, he added:
The convention center is unsanitary and unsafe, and we are running out of supplies for the 15,000 to 20,000 people. [19]
Mayor Nagin again voiced his criticism of the state's response to the crisis in a CNN interview on September 5, "...what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate." He further defended his response to Katrina in stating, "Look, I'll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens." [20]
(Nagin) Pro: The Superdome was stocked with seven truckloads of Meals Ready to Eat, and three truckloads of water . the national guard had supplies there to provide food and water for 15,000 people for 3 days on the august 28th. as for wether to believe quotes attributed to the deputy director of the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Emergency Preparedness as reported by the times picayune. [21]
Con: "The convention center is unsanitary and unsafe, and we are running out of supplies for the 15,000 to 20,000 people."(Mayor Ray Nagin) [22] As to the human condition in the superdome during in the immediate aftermath, "One guy jumped off a balcony," said Charles Womack [23] a national guard soldier said, "We found a young girl raped and killed in the bathroom. Then the crowd got the man and they beat him to death." as reported by BBC. [24]
Pro: After five days, the Superdome evacuation is complete. [25]
(Nagin)Con: [26]The initial governmental presence in the Superdome consisted of "about 200 other Guard members and a few New Orleans policemen, since Monday." according to the Washington Post. Society broke down in what was supposed to be a haven.
(Nagin) Pro: "When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens." [27] (cut and paste job from the nagin pro section of wikipedia article)
Con:(another cut and paste from wiki article)Bob Williams of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a conservative think tank, criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a Wall Street journal op-ed claiming "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation." [28] However, when asked to confirm the claim that Bush had allegedly persuaded Nagin to order the evacuation Whitehouse press secretary Scott McClellan stated that he had no information to this effect. In fact, the only reported conversation between Bush and Blanco regarding the hurricane prior to its arrival had taken place immediately before the mandatory evacuation was announced at a pre-arranged press conference [29].
Mr.Williams, a former state legislator who represented the legislative district most impacted by the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980, further raised questions about the extent to which state and city officials refined and developed evacuation plans for the city.
"The Gov. Blanco and Mayor Nagin cannot claim that they were surprised by the extent of the damage and the need to evacuate so many people. Detailed written plans were already in place to evacuate more than a million people. The plans projected that 300,000 people would need transportation in the event of a hurricane like Katrina. If the plans had been implemented, thousands of lives would likely have been saved."
(Nagin) Pro: ???
Con: Many critics believe that, in retrospect, the use of Mass Transit, especially busses, should have been explored to improve the mandatory evacuation effort that was delayed by uncertainty in the mayor's office. this harsh criticism is also one of the points Republicans make to deflect criticism of the Bush Administration's handling of hurricane Katrina. "WHY DIDN'T YOU DEPLOY THE BUSES DURING THE MANDATORY EVACUATION, MAYOR?..." as the drudge report puts it. [30]
-- 66.92.144.73 01:38, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
The statement: "However, in contradiction of the three sources cited above, a document which also appears to be a copy of the governor's request [6] is dated August 28." (in the "Hurricane Katrina" section of the entry) is misleading. There were two letters sent by Governor Blanco, and thus no contradiction. Careful readers of the White House response of August 27th will note that this letter of authorization specifically mentions a number of parishes, but does not mention Orleans Parish or several of its surrounding Parishes. Blanco's second letter to the White House specifically mentions these Parishes which were omitted from the White House authorization. I have no idea why the White House omitted these Parishes in its initial response, or chose to name any Parishes at all rather than simply the state of Louisiana, but I would surmise that the Governor sent the second letter as a clarification, in case the White House had made a mistake.
I'm not editing the entry itself, as I've never done that before, and I'm sure there are other people who could do it more quickly and efficiently (and phrase the edit more effectively) than I could. Whyaduck 03:21, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
"Also, the news journal Editor & Publisher has criticized several conservative politicians and journalists regarding what it perceives to be their reluctance to place blame on the Bush Administration, or comment on the aftermath Hurricane Katrina at all. [19]"
Critic is cited, criticism is phrased as what news journal "perceives" to have happened. -- Jentizzle 15:07, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Whatever their content, this article section on criticism is loaded with long excerpts from sources. It's fully understandable that the content supports various positions on the Mayor. But I would suggest that it reads like a newspaper article and that the work of preparing a summary based upon facts and placing the long excerpts in links has not been done. It gives the article the appearance of one big POV - and I'll be honest I did not wade through it to determine just which POV viewpoints were presented.
I just don't think this article should be prepared as a newspaper report and I suspect it's not going to hold up. The huge transcript of the Mayor in an interview just doesn't look like it should be presented that way.
You wont see me editing, deleting, reverting it. But it needs to be done. This is not how biography is done in an encylclopedia. It's how its done in a book. Kyle Andrew Brown 15:59, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I noticed the clean up tag on this page. I've been watching the talk page as well. We should come to an agreement and have someone edit this page so we can remove it. I'm not sure if no one has had time to fix it, or that they are afraid to with all the problems it's had. Anyway, I just thought I'd say that Davidpdx 9/11/05 9:03pm KST
The whole evaluation is changing during the blame game. Just to comment: I think local "nincompoops" know a lot more about the abilities and disabilities of the town or city population, and the w2ays out the area than politicians thousands of miles away. Gorgonzilla's point about someone "eating babies" is not far off par considering that Randall Robinson stated: “It is reported that black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive.” Deranged racist crap. Whyerd 18:33, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Well the latest information is that the neighboring city posted armed police to stop people walking out via the interstate. Nagin is real pissed about it and with good reason. It is pretty bizare the number of officials who were paralyzed by fear of lawsuits and legal implications then there are people taking completely illegal actions that kill. Oh and it turns out that FEMA was refusing to allow supplies to be delivered because they didn't have a ticket number, not because they were needed elsewhere. -- Gorgonzilla 21:19, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/12/103905.shtml Whyerd 17:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Someone has asserted POV without putting any comment here in talk. Is this just LJS with yet another sockpuppet account?
The extreme POV here is nothing short of what could be expected in a Michael Moore movie. That in looking at the history any change has been repeatedly vandalized including POV and quality warnings is yet further evidence of this. That anyone issuing an objection on this discussion page is regularly attacked on this page is yet more evidence of that extremism. How that EL_C? -- 66.43.173.74 01:31, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't be deliberately obtuse. Even the Democrat Governor Kathleen Blanco has criticized Nagin. With her claims the evacuation was handled poorly. http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1102467&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 -- 66.43.173.74 13:09, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
What article were you reaing?? This is very clearly criticism from ythe governor's office:
"Shortly before Katrina hit, she sent President Bush a request asking for shelter and provisions, but didn't specifically ask for help with evacuations. One aide to the governor told ABC News today Blanco thought city officials were taking care of the evacuation." -- JimmyCrackedCorn 04:13, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
"That anyone issuing an objection on this discussion page is regularly attacked..." Anyone? Really? It's plain that you had AT LEAST TWO or more sockpuppets and posted under different aliases. Manufacturing consensus isn't a particularly efficient or honest way to utilize talk. Frankly speaking, if I knew for certain that wiki prohibited use of different aliases to garner support in talk, I would've reported this to an admin already. I think it would've done more for your credibility to stick with one name, argue your points, and let others take issue with what you've said. This means not appearing as as Long John Silver one minute, criticizing someone's edits, then :showing up under another alias and agreeing with yourself later. -- Jentizzle 04:22, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
Problem is, (and bear in mind that I support most of Nagin's commentary), that the City of New Orleans had an evacuation plan which included using mass transit and school buses, which were not used. Now, taking everything into consideration, I don't know how important this is, but it probably does deserve mention as those images of the parking lots full of school buses is fairly damming evidence that the evacuation plan wasn't fully followed. However, if we do this, it needs to be noted that as a Mayor, he didn't have the authority to tell neighboring states that he was bringing his city to their city or jursidiction.-- MONGO 20:32, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Now the revert war/sockpuppet problem is comming under control we need to cleanup the article. In particular I would like to see the long extracts from the radio interview paraphrased, I don't think that two weeks out they really look like they stand the test of time as Nagin's definitive critique of the Federal efforts.
I would like to suggest that people look through the talk to see what they feel is still relevant to ongoing development of the article and copy them below this comment. Then we can archive all the rest. -- Gorgonzilla 21:41, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
Oddly even the above text by Gorgonzilla calls for this clean-up. Nagin "expressed anger and frustration" is clearly POV, the selective edit of Nagin's qotes when he has both criticized and sided with Bush. And the lack of reference to Nagin's criticism on the Governor is clearly POV. The text is below. Please suggest non-POV changes. Thanks. -- DKorn 21:29, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
Apparently you can if the rules apply equally to all. At this link we see that an entire section of text was removed by Gorgonzilla for POV [31] at least according to Gorgonzilla. My suggested changes were implicit above, as were Gorgonzillas. Did you read what I said? Here again is what I said:
This means the characterization of Nagin's mood should be removed, a reference to his siding with President Bush needs inclusion, and Nagin's criticism of the Governor's failures need to be added. Clear now?
Criticism of Relief Efforts
On September 1, 2005, Nagin expressed his frustration and anger at the response of other government officials and the lack of aid to the city of New Orleans in an emotional interview with Garland Robinette, on radio station WWL:
Expanding on his statements, he added:
Mayor Nagin again voiced his criticism of the state's response to the crisis in a CNN interview on September 5, "...what the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate." He further defended his response to Katrina in stating, "Look, I'll take whatever responsibility that I have to take. But let me ask you this question: When you have a city of 500,000 people, and you have a category 5 storm bearing down on you, and you have the best you've ever done is evacuate 60 percent of the people out of the city, and you have never issued a mandatory evacuation in the city's history, a city that is a couple of hundred years old, I did that. I elevated the level of distress to the citizens." [33]
On September 4, President Bush responded to Nagin's criticism by blaming state and local authorities for their response to Katrina, stating that the latter's magnitude "created tremendous problems that have strained state and local capabilities. The result is that many of our citizens simply are not getting the help they need, especially in New Orleans. And that is unacceptable." [34].
Bob Williams of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a conservative think tank, criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a Wall Street Journal op-ed claiming "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation." [35] However, when asked to confirm the claim that Bush had allegedly persuaded Nagin to order the evacuation, White House press secretary Scott McClellan stated that he had no information to this effect. In fact, the only reported conversation between Bush and Blanco regarding the hurricane prior to its arrival had taken place immediately before the mandatory evacuation was announced at a pre-arranged press conference [36].
Category:Wikipedia:Suspected sockpuppets of 66.43.173.74
Paragraph in question:
Bob Williams of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a conservative think tank, criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a Wall Street Journal op-ed claiming "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation." [16] However, when asked to confirm the claim that Bush had allegedly persuaded Nagin to order the evacuation, White House press secretary Scott McClellan stated that he had no information to this effect. In fact, the only reported conversation between Bush and Blanco regarding the hurricane prior to its arrival had taken place immediately before the mandatory evacuation was announced at a pre-arranged press conference [17].
The only reason the Evergreen foundation is relevant here is that they are a partisan organization that is presumed by the networks to be delivering the WhiteHouse talking points. The organization does not list emergency response as a core competency. The organization website makes it very clear that the organization is partisan and the attempt to present their criticism as neutral and unbiased is deceptive and POV.
Since Scott McClelan's refusal to confirm the claims made by Evergreen the organization has not been heard from again on this matter. -- Gorgonzilla 01:20, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I have to agree this is POV and it is deceptive. If you look at their press release section, you'll see the other main issue they have advocated was in terms of the election in Washington where Dino Rossi lost a close election to Christine Gregoire. One of the stories they posted on their website claims felons vote in overwhelming numbers for democrats.
This seems to me to be another version of the highly controversial Swift Boat organization put in place mearly to smear. You will see that I added the paragraph in question to the talk page so that everyone can read it. I move that this come to a vote as to whether the content should stay or not. Davidpdx 9/18/05 2:00 (UTC)
As an addendum to my arguement above, let me state that I am advocate deleting the entire paragraph including the blog comments. The moment you allow POV stuff like this into articles on Wikipedia is the moment this place becomes a trash can (and yes you can quote me on that!).
Please do not put this section back in until a consensus is reached on the talk page. Davidpdx 9/18/02 2:11 (UTC)
Sorry for the miscommunication. I thought I was moving it here at the same time Gorgonzilla was apparently doing the same. As below I vote this straw man be deleted, LW blog sentences and all. -- DKorn 02:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph needs to be deleted completely. Here again Gorgonzilla tries to make a point using bits and pieces only found on the most extreme LW Blogs. The section even includes a blog as a source. There is very little that can be done to remove the extreme LW POV beside shortening. The paragraph:
Bob Williams of the
Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a conservative
think tank, criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a
Wall Street Journal op-ed claiming "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation."
[37] However, when asked to confirm the claim that Bush had allegedly persuaded Nagin to order the evacuation, White House press secretary
Scott McClellan stated that he had no information to this effect. In fact, the only reported conversation between Bush and Blanco regarding the hurricane prior to its arrival had taken place immediately before the mandatory evacuation was announced at a pre-arranged press conference
[38].
Could become:
Bob Williams of the Evergreen Freedom Foundation, a think tank that describes itself as "a private, non-profit, public policy research organization," criticized Nagin's preparation for the hurricane in a Wall Street Journal op-ed with several points. Among them Williams claimed "Mayor Nagin had to be encouraged by the governor to contact the National Hurricane Center before he finally, belatedly, issued the order for mandatory evacuation. And sadly, it apparently took a personal call from the president to urge the governor to order the mandatory evacuation." [39]
and that would remove all POV.
But I'd vote that it be deleted entirely. There are far more criticisms of the Mayor that can be included in the article. Among them was the Governor's public shoot down of the Mayor's plan to forcefully evacuate people who chose to stay in New Orleans flooded and polluted areas. -- DKorn 02:35, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Should I understand by your "logic" a mix of Right Wing Blog and Left Wing Blog nonsense is balanced and therefore neutral and suitable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article? Would you also support inserting a theory that the moon is made of Green Cheese and an offsetting theory that it is actually a hollow vessel full of moon men? That's "balanced" and therefore neutral too, right? It's also as unbalanced as wanting both right wing and left wing blog items in the same article. I hope you are not really that unbalanced, are you? -- DKorn 04:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
That's even more reason to delete the paragraph that you apparantly included as a straw man just so you could knock it down. You made your logical fallacy a circus and lost credibility when you chose your pals in the extreme left wing blogosphere to knock it down with, however. It all needs to go lock, stock and barrel. -- DKorn 04:56, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
As I said I think the whole paragraph should go, both the reference to the conservative organization and the blog. Neither have a place in the article. Davidpdx 9/18/05 9:44 (UTC)
Let's talk about this instead of edit warring. And the sockpuppets are starting to get annoying. Pick an account and discuss the problem here. If I keep seeing sockpuppets editing here I'm going to start blocking them all. · Katefan0 (scribble) 14:46, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Certainly, but if that reasoning is being used to imply they don't belong here also it follows the consitution should not be mentioned in an article on US history if there is an article on James Madison that mentions the constitution. It's a non-sequiter. Mention of the Constitution belongs in multiple places as does Nagin's failure to exercise his evacuation responsibility. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 17:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The local government's inability (led by Ray Nagin) to exercise their charge in evacuating the locals without transportation some of whom died as a result is clearly a major part of the disaster. Unlike you/Gorgonzilla, I have never used a blog as a reference despite your canard above. I have confined my sourcing to NBC, ABC, Reuters, the AP, Official Government Documents, and Wikipedia itself whose source was NOAA satellite photos. You're very familiar with blogs, aren't you? But just because your DailyKos nonsense got the axe, that is no reason to continually blank my section sourced with major network sources, wire sources and official government documents. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 17:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Better sourcing than a local TV anchor and an AP photo? If you were to take a closer look at my sourcing, you'd see I have provided 2 'national network (not local) news anchors who are both veterans - NBC's Lisa Myers and ABC's Dean Reynolds. I have also provided excerpts with links from official government documents, and I have provided clear photos from 3 sources - AP, Reuters and Wikinews. While your criticism of Aquillion's DailyKos blog source is somehow absent. Did Wikinews make my other sources invalid?;0) Also sent to your talk page. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 22:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
By "yes" are you saying my use of Wikinews as a source poisoned all the other sources, or are you acknowledging my rundown of the 6 sources as factual? Where did you get the idea I had only a local reporter and one AP photo, anyway? Also sent to your talk page. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:03, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Ten you haven't read my Lisa Myers' source or watched the Dean Reynolds video. Both contain clear criticisms of local government. That is the government headed by Ray Nagin. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 22:52, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I misattributed the POV statement. It wasn't from JimmyCrackedCorn, but from an anonymous source. My apologies. - Yipdw 01:17, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
Yipdw, I saw that as well. It looks like someone is again putting strong POV statements into this article. Maybe it's time the admins follow up on their threat of banning some people. Hell I got yelled at last week from threating to get someone banned. You think the least the admins (yes you know who this is directed at) could do is hold of up their end of the bargin and actually ban the people that are screwing up this article. Davidpdx 9/22/05 1:45 (UTC)
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla misuses the term coexists. The word is coextensive.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla has still not sourced claim the mayor flip/flopped his party alliance despite earlier discussion and his proven fraudulent claim the info was available in a source he provided. It wasn't. Until there is a source reference to Party should go.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla provides no source for Nagin's political contributions.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla provides no source for election results.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's Hurricane Katrine timeline is out of chronological order.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's claim Nagin expressed "frustration and anger" is personal POV
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version completely obscures what Mayor Nagin's Hurricane Katrina responsbilities were under the city, state and/or federal evacuation plans. Without that, any reference to Hurricane Katrina makes no sense.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version makes no mention of the unused buses being cited under the evacuation plans as available for evacuation.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version makes no mention of the flooding of the idle buses.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version makes no mention of Nagin's rejection of the idle buses or his demand somebody send him some Greyhound buses.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version makes the unsourced claim the Evergreen Foundation is "conservative." Since neither the WSJ describes the EF that way, nor does the EF itself, the label can only be personal POV.
Aquillion/Gorgonzilla's version labels the last paragraph "Critics of Nagin" in a clearly POV attempt to make the critics the focus rather than the criticism. This borders on a logical fallacy called poisoning the well. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 04:57, 22 September 2005 (UTC)
So in your fit of hypocrisy hypocrisy you've decided to accuse me of having a sockpuppet while claiming such an accusation is a violation of Wikipedia's policy, eh? Physician heal thyself. BTW - evidence is identical POV, identically spelled misspelled words, one answering for the other, and their posting/editing right after one another as Gorgonzilla and Aquillilon have both done and I have pointed out several times. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 23:37, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
So you hypocritically did "original research" expressed just above after continuing to whine that is what I had done when, in fact, I havn't. That's called " projection". It is still your POV that uses an association member's political registration to characterize his organization. It is also your POV that says Republican=Conservative. I can tell you they are clearly not the same thing. Arlen Specter is a Republican (fact) and is also a liberal (my POV), get it? If you were an Optimist that would not necessarily make the Optimist Club an organisation comprised of a bunch of lunatic fringe left wing extremists. That Bob Williams is a Republican does not necessarily make Evergreen Foundation "conservative." -- JimmyCrackedCorn 18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Then what you have is a liberal paper whose POV agrees with yours. Is anyone surprised? As you said below the appropriate Wikipedia way to use that is by saying "The Washington Daily News (circulation 36, 52 on Sundays) says the Evergreen is a "conservative" organization. It is not a given that Evergreen Foundation is conservative. It is a fact your LW extremist paper describes them as conservative. Do you understand the difference? My guess is no. You've never demonsrated much of a depth of comprehension. --
JimmyCrackedCorn
18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Again a fringe liberal source labels something they think is to the right of them "conservative." and again that is clear POV. Whether or not their POV matches yours makes no difference. It is POV. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
You had posted none in the edit despite my moving that comment here for discussion. Your sockpuppet Aquilion posted only one but one talked about Nagin as a Republican but never made clear he flip-flopped. IOW it made my case, not yours. Do I need to sort through these new sources to find out where your lie is wrt them now? -- JimmyCrackedCorn 18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Odd your "friend" Aquilion misspells buses the exact same way, eh? The way you spelled the word means "kisses." I DIDN'T criticize Nagin in the buses section. I outlined specific facts. Show me the sentence where I criticized him. I included and cited NBC's Lisa Myers' criticism, not mine. I also linked to an ABC Nightline video that shows an evacuee criticizing "local government." Not me. I did exactly what you accused me of not doing. Then you lied to Katefan0 about my sources, claiming I included only a local news anchor and one AP photo, when in fact I had 7 national sources all of which agreed with one another. Why do you and your sockpuppet lack the capacity to grasp this?" --
JimmyCrackedCorn
18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
There are very few times you and I agree but I'm agreed there is very little point in discussing things when you and your sockpuppet continue to use strawmen fallacies to effect your POV, refuse to consider that Nagin's duties are important in an article about Nagin, and falsely claim NBC's Lisa Myers' criticism is my criticism of Nagin. I've repeatedly said Nagin is as much victim as villian. He was clearly victimized by the Governess who didn't set up evacuation shelters in non-risk parishes. That sealed Nagin's and New Orleans' fate more than any sin of omission or comission by Nagin. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
That third tier aspect is precisely why you and your sockpuppet cling to using Evergreen as a source. What good is a
strawman you can't knock down, eh? It's yet another reason why it's clear your composition is sloppy, poor quality and very POV. --
JimmyCrackedCorn
18:20, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Nagin's response to the disaster is obviously fair game for this article, including some mention of criticsm. The challenge is to mention it fairly without overdoing it. I propose:
Most Louisiana lawmakers avoided pointing the finger at local leaders. But Nagin was criticized by some newspaper editorial writers for not handling evacuation procedures properly. In particular, Nagin has taken heat for allowing hundreds of New Orleans' municipal buses — which were to be used for evacuating poor or elderly people — to sit idle in parking lots that eventually flooded. [41] On an appearance on Meet the Press, Nagin said the buses sat unused because there was no one to drive them.
I'm not wedded to this, but it's time to start proposing something instead of mudslinging. · Katefan0 (scribble) 12:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't be insipid. That Nagin said, "...one of the briefings we had, they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here..." is a fact. Encyclopedias don't need a critic to say Nagin said that before it is included. Facts are facts and belong in an encyclopedia just as much as what critics say about people. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 21:29, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
No one stated your interperetation but you. You are again usng the same straw man fallacy you've been corrected on numerous times in both your Aquillon and Gorgonzilla personae. Borrowing from Russell Honore "Don't get stuck on stupid." -- JimmyCrackedCorn 00:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
You characterized SEWilco's interpretation and embedded that characterization in quotes and are now claiming your characterization is an acceptable quote. That is not only a straw man, you have just been caught in an obvious lie, yet again. Lies, especially when in characterization of other's statements, are bad faith. See to it that you and your "friend" Gorgonzilla don't lie again. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 01:43, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Katefan's text is not bad writing. I'd support it as long as it also included the reference to the state document that declares evacuation the responsibility of the local Parish and the item about the 16 year old without a commercial license who drove the 1st group of evacuees in a schoolbus to the Reliant Astrodome. The section should also make clear Governor Blanco did not set up evacuation centers in non-risk parishes for Nagin to take evacuees. -- DKorn 20:34, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Do you often bury facts you find inconvenient? That Nagin was responsible for the evacuation is critical to even discussing Hurricane Katrina under Nagin's bio. Above you claimed that Nagin was responsible for evacuation is tautology. Now you're worried someone might learn the truth and formulate an opinion you find unappealing. Make up your mind. Whould you bury the fact Hitler invaded Poland because that fact tilted to one POV over another? What's wrong with the truth again? A clear and mitigating factor in Nagin's refusal to employ the buses in evacuation was that the Governor did not provide him any evacuation shelters in non-risk parishes as required under the state evacuation plan. Including Nagin's responsibility without mentioning Blanco's would be clear POV. Omitting a description of Nagin's and Blanco's responsibilies is also clearly POV. According to someone I'm sure you admire, Molly Ivans, "The press' sins of omission are more flagrant than their sins of comission." -- JimmyCrackedCorn 01:33, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree wholehearedly that Nagin's responsibilities for Hurricane Katrina don't belong in the criticism section but elsewhere. His resonsibilities are a point of fact not criticism. I think DKorn tried to make the responsibilities it's own section several times due to such objections but Aquillon/Gorgonzilla reverted it out several times in their/his revert war. DKorn even brought that section here on the discussion page for comment. An editor called Jentizzle said naming Nagin head of evacuation was POV and an Admin type agreed with her. Therefore, that statement needed the support of the Louisiana evacuation document. Even if you and I think Nagin's responsibility to evacuate is obvious enough to be tautology apparently many don't see it that way. --
JimmyCrackedCorn
00:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
http://mediamatters.org/items/200509070003
the truth of this assertion rests on Bob William's shoulders. whitehouse.org is mum on the subject. the only call that referances can be found to on google are the sun. sept 28th 9AM call to Gov Blanco.
this doesn't sound like something that belongs on wikepedia. -- 66.92.144.73 07:08, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Well of course not. However, one editor with multiple personalities loves LW blogs like media matters and DailyKos. --
DKorn
20:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Nagin is now making the rounds via the humor-email network: http://www.ilovekarlrove.com/pix/print_blamegame.pdf
JimmyCrackedCorn recently created Mayor Nagin and the Evacuation By School Buses Controversy, a fork which contains only the disputed bus section. They then created Nagin (disambiguation), which linked only to that article and this one, and redirected Nagin to that disambig. Since disambiguation pages are not ment to be used for multiple articles on the same subject, but for articles on different subjects with names that have a potental to be confused, I went ahead and changed the Nagin redirect back and redirected Nagin (disambiguation) here. The fork is still there for now. -- Aquillion 22:20, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
You have yet to explain what is POV about well sourced facts appearing in either place. Care to take a "Crack" at it? -- JimmyCrackedCorn 00:27, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
So are you Katefan's mini me? She is capable of speaking for herself but neither of you are capable of explaining what is POV, inaccurate or even unsupported text in an article that has no such text. You share that trait of answering for others with your "friend" Gorgonzilla, don't you? It's not surprising you and your sockpuppet would have so much in common. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:46, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
This is the same trick that 'Jimmy' tried with ' First Responder'. He is clearly demonstrating that his objective here is to peddle propaganda. He is projecting like mad, what he accuses others of 'lying', sockpuppetry and POV describes only himself. -- Gorgonzilla 12:30, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Apologies if this is not the appropriate place for this, but since it's come up so many times, and happened almost entirely on this page, I thought I should mention that I finally have more or less concrete evidence (or as concrete as anyone is ever going to get) that DKorn ( talk · contribs) and JimmyCrackedCorn ( talk · contribs) are the same person. The similarities in posting style, sequental appearance with a line of other socks and anons, recent registrations, and other behavioral things have all been discussed at length; but I thought I should bring people's attention to these diffs:
Recently, JimmyCrackedCorn accidently posted while not logged in. Note that they were logged in for the earlier challenge to KateFan0 they refer to there, and note that their other contributions while not logged in exactly follow what JimmyCrackedCorn was doing at the time. Therefore, JimmyCrackedCorn is 12.74.187.165.
12.74.187.** is one of the IPs used by Long John Silver, who (thankfully for us) never registered under that name and always posted while logged out, but signed his name and left his IP address visible: [44] [45].
More commonly, though, Long John Silver posted under 209.247.222.**: [46] [47] [48].
And when DKorn made the same mistake as LongJohnSilver and posted while logged out, what did we see? Surprise! DKorn is 209.247.222.**, aka Long John Silver, aka JimmyCrackedCorn. -- Aquillion 02:23, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
To remove any lingering doubt, JimmyCrackedCorn has just been reworking his own statements here, alternately logging in and out as 209.247.222.** Aquillion 03:52, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Don't get stuck on stupid. I've already told you My ISP is shared with millions. I use ATT Worldnet as do several others here I'm quite sure. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:43, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
IOW you'd rather divert attention from the article's content to ancillary issues. How typically libertine of you. I'm going to guess you are on Aquillon/Gorgonzilla's buddy list. You seem to come a-runnin' whenever either of those two issue yet another whine. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 06:17, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Gorgonzilla and Aquillion have answered for one another numerous times. They have both been caught in lies and both have identical POV's. If they aren't sockpuppets they are stooges of one aother. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:53, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Another addition to this list: Kirby Morgan ( talk · contribs). Not quote so sure about this one; I wasn't even going to mention it at first. They registered at about the same time as many of the socks listed above, and almost immediately came here and reverted during a period when JimmyCrackedCorn had just used 3 reverts, but they've been on a few other articles as well. The thing that convinced me was the edit history for Godwin's law, specifically these two edits: [49] [50]. Account Kirby Morgan is used to make an edit; someone else promptly reverts. Two days later 209.247.222.** arrives, with no other history on the page, and mostly reverts back to Kirby Morgan's version. Mainly bringing this one up because Kirby Morgan was used to vote on the Mayor Nagin and the Evacuation By School Buses Controversy AfD. -- Aquillion 01:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
Please explain what you think is POV about the text below. I'm already aware of the objection to placing this in a section labeled criticism and even agree with that objection. I'm looking for specific sentences that are wrong or POV in something akin to the bullet list I provided with what is wrong with the article in its current form. I'm not looking for general complaints or more personal ad hominem attacks. Please place your comments in the section just below. Thanks. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 16:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
City Government Responsibility
The Louisiana State Evacuation Plan [51] declares, "The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating" in Part 1 Section D. The state evacuation plan also assigns evacuation to each Parish with the language {the parish will} "Conduct and control local evacuation in parishes located in the risk area and manage reception and shelter operations in parishes located in the host area" in Part 1 Section D. The responsibility for carrying out the evacuation in Orleans Parish fell upon the Mayor of the Parish - Ray Nagin. [52]
State Government Responsibility
The Louisiana State Evacuation Plan [53] mandates the Governor shall find evacuation shelter in non-risk Parishes to accommodate evacuees from Parishes at risk (Part 1, section D1d) with the following language:
The Federal Emergency Management Agency is responsible for assisting local authorities when requested by the state authorities to respond to natural disasters as a secondary or tertiary responder. State and local authorities are considered first responders.
Use of Buses for Evacuation During and After Hurricane Katrina
The mayor stated on September 1, 2005 that he rejected the use of school buses and insisted that someone provide Greyhound buses. Nagin said in a WWL radio interview, "I need reinforcements, I need troops, man. I need 500 buses, man. We ain't talking about -- you know, one of the briefings we had - they were talking about getting public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out here. I'm like, "You got to be kidding me. This is a national disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans." [54]
Later, on a September 11, 2005 appearance on NBC's Meet the Press responding to a question by moderator Tim Russert, Nagin claimed 550 municipal buses and hundreds of additional school buses at his disposal sat unused because there was no one to drive them. Nagin said, "Sure, here was lots of buses out there. But guess what? You can't find drivers that would stay behind with a Category 5 hurricane, you know, pending down on New Orleans. We barely got enough drivers to move people on Sunday, or Saturday and Sunday, to move them to the Superdome. We barely had enough drivers for that. So sure, we had the assets, but the drivers just weren't available." [55]
However, the very first bus to arrive at the Reliant Astrodome with New Orleans evacuees was a New Orleans school bus driven by an evacuee, 20 year old Jabbar Gibson, who commandeered it. By that time most New Orleans buses were flooded after the hurricane and subsequent levee failure and unable to make the trip. [56] A story [57] that appeared in the Chicago Tribune indicates Laidlaw, Inc was willing to loan the city to help in the emergency but they also could not provide drivers. There is no indication Nagin ever sought volunteer drivers from among the evacuees.
NBC's veteran reporter Lisa Myers reported local authorities had not used New Orleans' school buses or Regional Transit Authority (RTA) buses to evacuate the city's stranded poor during the Hurricane Katrina emergency. The city authorities also parked those buses where they were flooded after the levee break according to Myers. [58] The Associated Press and Reuters have both captured images of the flooded buses. [59], [60] and [61] According to Myers, "A draft emergency plan, prepared by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and obtained by NBC News, calls for '400 buses to ... evacuate victims.' Yet those 200 buses were left in Katrina's path."
The bus situation was not lost on at least one New Orleans evacuee, Connie London, interviewed by ABC's Nightline Reporter Dean Reynolds at the Reliant Astrodome. The evacuee cites the bus flooding as her major criticism of the performance of city and state officials in handling Hurricane Katrina. [62] Video (wmv file, 00:54 seconds)
However, as Jesse Jackson has pointed out on FoxNews' Hannity and Colmes September 13, 2005 there was nowhere the mayor could have sent the evacuees by bus. On the orders of Col Terry J Ebbert, Governor Kathleen Blanco's head of her state's Homeland Security Department. [63] the Superdome in New Orleans would be the city's only evacuation shelter despite the Governor's responsibility to establish evacuation shelters in "non-risk parishes" according to the Louisiana's Evacuation Plan (Part 1, Section D1).
I know at least one person thinks this doesn't belong in criticism. I even agree. The text here is point of fact not point of criticism, or in my opinion also not point of view. But please tell me what the POV text is in your opinion. I'm really trying to understand the objections here. --
JimmyCrackedCorn
16:39, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for a response. Now can you provide specifics? How does this do any of what you allege? How for example do my Nagin quotes misrepresent Nagin's claims about why he didn't use the buses for evacuation as called for in the state evacuation plan? As for your general criticism - that it's too long for the Nagin bio article - I'd agree. That's why it needs a fork. Not a POV fork, but a fork. We need to remove any POV text that can be identified. That's why I'm asking what is POV or inaccurate about the text. -- 12.74.187.215 17:08, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
What you may still fail to comprehend from your activist paradigm is I am not making an argument, I am reporting a series of related and interrelated events. That you cannot provide any specifics on what you think is POV, inaccurate, or even unsupported about what I have written although you have labeled it as such speaks volumes. Given your track record what makes you think you have the requisite objectivity to facilitate compromise language?? -- JimmyCrackedCorn 01:19, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
And I'm not surprised you can't provide any either. There is no POV, inaccurate or unsupported text in the article. -- JimmyCrackedCorn 05:36, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
Look, I don't mind compromise, but Katefan0's approach to it is a bit daft. Katefan0 and his/her fellow editors are being a tad exclusionist by stating "Take it or leave it" whith their information, forcing people to waste time reading a large amount of confusing scrabble in order to get anywhere with a contribution. This leads to such things as censorship. If information is pertinent, if information is useful, if information is encyclopedic, if the sources are cited, then information should be included in the article. People are too trigger-happy sometimes when someone they don't know edits "their" article, and this violates the spirit of Wikipedia - after all, we're supposed to be an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. This is Wikipedia's Ray Nagin article, not Katefan0's Ray Nagin article. That is the main reason I made the reverts that I did, regardless of JimmyCrackedCorn's attitude or the attitudes of those arguing with him/her. — Rickyrab | Talk 16:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
I have requested that this page be unprotected, on the grounds that Mayor Nagin is involved in a current event or two (Hurricanes Katrina and Rita), even though there may be a dispute between editors about the main page. Agree or disagree? Answer below, please; I initially suggested Wikipedia:Requests for page protection and unprotection as a forum, but it appears they do not want that as a forum. Dang. — Rickyrab | Talk 23:41, 25 September 2005 (UTC)
I would not normally consider this article a candidate for protection, even if it were not related to an event in the news. There seems to have been some squabbling about content shortly before protection was imposed, but no significant revert warring. One IP number inserted a POV comment about Nagin's leadership abilities. This is really par for the course. I don't understand why there is so much venom on this talk page, or precisely at whom it is directed. Couldn't we have a little assumption of good faith, please? I think you're all doing just fine. -- Tony Sidaway Talk 17:57, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
It's rhetorical questions like Gorgonzilla's above that make me wonder if we're looking at the same article. The report on WP:AN3 is from 13th September, the article was protected on 22nd September. What you say about a certain editor's behavior may or may not be entirely true, but it doesn't explain why you think the article should be reprotected now. If he's such a bad egg, wouldn't it be giving him undeserved attention to go to the extent of protecting an article that isn't under attack, just because you think that he might do so? -- Tony Sidaway Talk 22:06, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, the whole following bit doesn't really relate to Nagin; it would belong on Blanco's page, Hurricane Katrina, or someplace similar, but is, I'm sure, already covered on all those places. Nagin's name isn't even mentioned anywhere, though, and it seems to have to do with state/federal discussions rather than anything related to the city. The only reason it became as long as it did, I think, is because it was at the center of arguments that spilled onto this page from elsewhere. Does anyone have any reason why these paragraphs...
...shouldn't just be removed from the article? -- Aquillion 06:40, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
If the army of liberals that run this site are only going to candy coat everything, what is the point of having an encylopedia that anyone can edit?
A bunch of us include quotes that Ray himself, actually said.
Imagine this: I'm a space alien, and I land on this planet, and want to learn about Katrina and Ray Nagin. I go to Ray's entry, and read.
"Wow!" I think. "What the hell is wrong with that American Gov't!? Nagin did all he could, and that lousy GOP-led government screwed over everyone with total mismanagement".
But in FACT, in documented, widely-accepted fact:
Ray Nagin had no experience in handling these disasters Ray Nagin did not follow his own city, state emergency plan Ray Nagin did not use the 215 buses he was SUPPOSED to use Ray Nagin screamed, ranted and raved like a lunatic
No person would learn these historical FACTS if they read the Nagin entry here.
So again, I ask: What is the point?
Why dont' you libs just make up whatever nonesense you want, work your iMacs into a frenzy, and simply rename the site: Libipedia. At least that way, everyone will know that this place is the liberal view of the world.
The issue of the buses will be decided by a committee of enquiry - if there ever is one. It will not be decided here. The New Orleans plan was to evacuate to the superdome. This was done successfully before the storm hit. The problem was the subsequent evacuation of the superdome after the storm. -- Gorgonzilla 04:22, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps there is a better way to record the phone conversation Nagin had in a daughter article. I'm taking it out as it is longer than the biography itself and doesn't add much to the article.-- MONGO 07:59, 5 October 2005 (UTC)