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The edit warring IP that most recently reverted me here needs to be reverted in turn. The IP seems fixated on adding claims made by Zacharias because it finds them to be "bizarre". Listing claims made by living people in their BLPs simply because one finds them "bizarre" is a good example of unacceptable behaviour that leads to blocks. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 01:50, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
The article claims that Ravi Z is of Nambudiri descent. This claim without adequate context is bizarre because by Ravi Z's own account in the source cited only one of his great great great grandparents was Nambudiri Brahmin, who converted and married a Christian man. Saying he is of Nambudiri descent without this context is indeed bizarre and misleading. 81.141.94.0 ( talk) 02:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I have no intent to make RZ look ridiculous. I added the information from the original source because without it the article would be factually wrong on the point made and misleading and that section of the article would be ridiculous. 5.80.230.221 ( talk) 00:14, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Obviously a consensus will not be achieved if someone adamantly refuses reason and fact and opposes factual insertions because they don't like it. Your changes have no consensus either, btw.
The question as far as I am concerned is what has RZ said about his ancestry and to represent it properly. RZ does in his talks, his books and his speeches refer to his Brahmin heritage. It is a relevant piece of biographical information because it is something he identifies with strongly as evidenced from the source material.
He has also makes it clear that his heritage was through a distant relation in the source cited. There can be no dispute the additions I made are factual. They are relevant because without it the section about his Brahmin roots would become misleading and incorrect. The details I added were hence not undue nor inappropriate.
Asserting something as undue or inappropriate doesn't make it so, nor do your ad hominem attacks contribute to this discussion.
5.80.230.221 (
talk)
13:37, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
|
I can confirm I am one person- my IP changes. I have as advised created an account. I have a few responses, and yes I would invite external more experienced editors to review this 'edit warring' engaged by FreeKnowledgeCreator who insists on keeping factually incorrect material and misleading content on a page about a living person.
I would like to make the following points:
1. FreeKnowledgeCreator argument is mainly ad hominem. He refuses factual content from the cited source and wants to remove it in favour of incorrect content.
2. He has not engaged in any attempt at a compromise.
3. His argument that non-consensus means factually incorrect should be retained in the article is principally flawed. The existence of one rogue editor with certain motives to keep factual content away from the article and keep misleading claims in an article does not mean an article about a living person should be kept factually wrong.
4. He does not dispute the veracity of the edits, but 'the relevance' and the 'intention' of content.
5. I have explained the relevance of my edit, which he ignores:
5.1 The first edit is to insert information that RZ's lone Nambudiri Brahmin ancestor was his great great great grandmother. The reasons why this is relevant and necessary are as follows:
5.1.1 The original version claims RZ to be of Nambudiri Brahmin descent. This is not technically incorrect since RZ's great great great grandmother was according to RZ a Nambudiri Brahmin as per the source cited. However to say that RZ is of Nambudiri Brahmin descent when 1 out of 32 of his great great great grandparents was one, is I believe misleading.
5.1.2 However from the source cited it is clear that RZ identifies strongly with Nambudiri Brahmin identity, hence while ordinarily the caste or community background of 1 in 32 of his great great great grand-parents is usually not particularly relevant, it is here because of the way he self-identifies with that particular aspect of his family history and background.
5.1.3 RZ in many talks and interviews when asked about his family background talk about his Nambudiri Brhamin heritage, showing clearly that his claim of Nambudiri descent is a relevant when describing his family background. Therefore keeping this aspect of his family background in the article is relevant.
5.2. In the second edit, I clarified that it was his great great great grandmother that was converted by Swiss-German missionaries, not the branch of the entire family. This is a factual error corrected.
6. I do not speculate FreeKnowledgeCreator's motives. However I concede that I can see why a supporter (I don't speculate that FreeKnowledgeCreator is one) of RZ may not like the insertion of factual context regarding his Brahmin heritage claims. This is because RZ in many talks and speeches, not cited in wikipedia, emphasizes his family background as being of Brahmin heritage. Therefore it is possible, some of his misguided supporters may resent the insertion of factual context regarding his Brahmin heritage claims because they feel it seems to make RZ look less credible. However, RZ, as seen in the source cited, has described his family history comprehensively and is the very source of the factual insertions made.
7. FreeKnowledgeCreator's claims that stating that great great great grandparent as 'a distant relative' is unnecessary. This I can compromise on. I don't think it matters much either way. I don't however see why he should object it.
8. I have all respect for RZ and his skills as a scholar and preacher. I made the corrections so that a proper factual context is made regarding this particularly claim, as made by RZ in the cited source. Jabramse ( talk) 03:02, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
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It appears that nobody disputes that that Zacharias is of Brahmin descent, or the fact that the ancestor in question was several generation removed. The only dispute seem to to be whether it is appropriate to include information on how this descent is traced. I can't see any valid reason not to include it, since it seems ot be an important part of Zacharias' identity, provided we can find a reliable source. Since this is a source of some contention, we should probably keep as closely as possible to the wording used by the sources of the claim. Can somebody please quote for me the the wording used in whatever source this genealogy comes from? Mark Marathon ( talk) 04:57, 3 March 2015 (UTC) |
To respond to Jabramse. You complain that I refuse "factual content from the cited source and wants to remove it in favour of incorrect content." The fact that that content may be factual does not mean that it needs to go in the article: see WP:UNDUE. There are endless facts that do not belong in articles because they are trivial or otherwise inappropriate. You have never shown that the content you removed was incorrect. You actually admit that it is not "technically" incorrect. You claim that this bizarre detail is relevant because, "RZ in many talks and interviews when asked about his family background talk about his Nambudiri Brhamin heritage, showing clearly that his claim of Nambudiri descent is a relevant when describing his family background." But the importance of that particular detail depends on what reliable sources say about Zacharias, not so much what he says about himself. Unless reliable independent sources indicate that it's important, there's no reason to place it in the article. Mark Marathon, who offered the third opinion, seems to have absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Frankly, how would you know that this bizarre detail about precisely how Zacharias traces his descent from the Nambudiri Brhamin caste is "an important part" of his identity? The give away here is your concession that we need to "find a reliable source" to show that it is actually an important part of Zacharias's identity. The whole point is that there is no such source. Just a particularly persistent and disruptive editor who decided himself that it was important. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 05:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
At this time, it is a matter of confusion as to whether I am arguing with one person using multiple IP addresses (81.141.94.0 and 5.80.230.221), and now a user account (Jabramse) as well, or whether there are two or three different people. All the relevant IP addresses and the user account need to explain how they are related. If there is a perception that multiple accounts are being used, that may be actionable behavior. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 05:43, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
TMDrew removed the mention of Zacharias's views on homosexuality because they are "irrelevant to Zacharias' career and reason for notability." I find that argument to be nonsense. The views Zacharias has expressed on moral views (whether about homosexuality or anything else) clearly are relevant to his career. His moral views are based on his Christian beliefs, and his career has been based on promoting Christian beliefs. The material should be restored promptly. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 03:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 02:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
WP:BLP says: "Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects." What secondary sources discuss Zacharias’ views on homosexuality? More than a lecture by the subject, we need secondary sources reporting and responding to that lecture. If such sources exist, are those sources as numerous as those that discuss other views he has expressed? BP:UNDUE says, "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence...". Giving weight to the subject’s opinions on waffles because one is interested in waffles is against policy: opinions on waffles belong in articles about waffle experts. I note that you just called a second editor "emotionally over-involved", called his example "bizarre", and you have previously termed my own observations "absurd" and "diversionary waffle and nonsense". If you believe this to be the case, AN/I is thataway ⇒ MarkBernstein ( talk) 15:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm confused. Ravi spends considerably more time talking about evolution and thermodynamics than he does about homosexuality, yet there is no reference to his views on the main page. While homosexuality is certainly topical at the moment, it's hardly central to Ravi's work or history. It seems like a lot more information on his specific opinions and works should be added before this does.. ThealityBites ( talk) 00:41, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
MarkBenstein, I think you are misreading BLP if you think it means that primary sources can never be used in an article. The policy states, "Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." Saying that Zacharias opposes homosexuality, based on what he has said about the subject, seems a perfectly reasonable use of a primary source. I can see why an entire section on Zacharias's view of homosexuality would be undue weight, but it doesn't violate the policy to simply mention his views briefly. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 01:21, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
This information should be maintained in the article. The article has cited both primary and secondary sources for this information, and the secondary source even mentions public controversy and protest surrounding Zacharias' views on the matter. Zacharias' frequent public statements on this issue, in combination with the public controversy his statements have provoked (as noted in secondary sources), make this information notable for inclusion in at least a sentence or two. CurtisNaito ( talk) 16:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
The text reports that Zaccharias spoke at a Veritas Forum at Harvard in 1993. The Veritas web site http://veritas.org/talks/?view=presenters&speaker_id=1947 reports only one Veritas Forum appearance, at Johns Hopkins, in 2013. MarkBernstein ( talk) 21:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
1992 https://www.christianbook.com/the-harvard-veritas-forum/ravi-zacharias/9781612560960/pd/1225BD This CD series contains two lectures and a question and answer session presented to packed audiences at the Harvard Law School. In the first message, Ravi examines the questions "Is Atheism Dead? Is God Alive?," after which he fields questions from the audience. Message two moves to the topic of "Getting to Truth" by addressing the questions "Who is Jesus? (And Why Does it Matter?)." The third message is a question and answer session where Ravi and a select number of Harvard scholars answer tough and thoughtful questions from the audience about the Christian faith. Some have heralded this forum as one of the most significant dialogues on truth on the Harvard campus in the past fifty years. (over 180 minutes) Thistledowne ( talk) 17:01, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I have added a reference to planned participation in the Together 16 meetings. Cpsoper ( talk) 13:30, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
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The ministry trip to Vietnam was flagged twice for clarification needed. Why not remove it, as a minor episode in his ministry anyway? Marfinan ( talk) 12:32, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Marfinan ( talk) 09:37, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Some web sites have reported a lawsuit involving the subject and other parties. As best I can find, no reliable source has yet covered the lawsuit, and the counterparties are clearly not notable. We should not cover this or publicize the lawsuit until and unless it is discussed in reliable sources — not merely in court filings. MarkBernstein ( talk) 00:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Since this started it seems Christianity Today covered this and also Ministry Watch (not sure whether this counts as a reliable source). RZIM has also made a statement on the use of "Dr.". An IP address added some stuff that mingles allowable and unallowable sources. I've filled in (partially) the cites that are reliable (or possibly allowable) and removed the others. The remaining statements I think are supported by the CT article, RZIM's statement, and Ministry Watch-- Erp ( talk) 20:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
I've been in contact with Steve Baughman FriendlyBanjoAtheist ( talk · contribs) for the last couple of months and most recently (March 1) he mailed his supporters (and people like me who think he's more interested in character assassination of a prominent Apologist which many atheists would very much like to see silenced in disgrace) trying to drum up support to get this article protected because his and another's (I assume the anonymous IP) edits were being altered/reverted. I informed him that he had to meet WP:Guidelines and such and that until he did, his changes would be reverted and he was in danger of getting the article protected as he wanted, only it would be against himself and others like him. I promised him that I would advocate for him on Talk if he provided cites that met guidelines for others to review for inclusion. I tried to explain that an edit-war would do nothing for his cause. He has provided this recent: https://www.christianpost.com/news/cma-denomination-decides-not-to-discipline-ravi-zacharias-over-credentials-illicit-relationship-220615/ He says that there are others he can provide so I've requested them but have not yet received them. If he does, I'll append for your consideration of whether or not he is able to provide enough to warrant some type of section inclusion on this topic... enough that he could create trouble for this article (protection and the like) if not included. Thistledowne ( talk) 17:25, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Disagree. Mr. Baughman's claims are all thoroughly documented on his site and he's certainly not alone in raising flags about Mr. Zacharias's behavior and habits of inflating his credentials. (See for example http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/12/04/ravi-zacharias-why-i-dont-think-his-response-at-christianity-today-cleared-things-up/, https://christianresearchnetwork.org/2017/12/04/ravi-zacharias-responds-to-sexting-allegations-credentials-critique/, etc.) Wikipedia cannot ignore these critiques and I propose that we add a section that covers them in overview. (NB: I am not affiliated with Mr. Baughman nor am I on his mailing list. I've just become aware of the critiques of Mr. Zacharias from an unrelated source and was surprised / disappointed to see these concerns suppressed on wikipedia.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metanoia2019 ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 20 January 2020 (UTC) Addendum: I see that the lawsuit and inflated claims are covered in the article. The language could probably be even stronger - it's difficult to argue when the University of Oxford indicates that Mr. Zacharias was never employed by the university. I also disagree with the claim of "character assassination" as Mr. Baughman seems to have given Mr. Zacharias a great number of chances to explain himself, including in real time over a dinner. (Again, I am not related to Mr. Baughman nor am I on his mailing list. I'm just surprised to see a wikipedia editor suppress his researchs.)
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I noted that the reference on Zacharias's web site for the sentence "Zacharias held the chair in Evangelism and Contemporary Thought at Alliance Theological Seminary from 1981 to 1984" no longer listed the connection (removed around December 2017). It was alleged that the "Department of Evangelism and Contemporary Thought" never existed thereby making it difficult for him to have been the chair. Given that the response was to remove the claim from Zacharias's web site I think we need a strong third party source to support putting the claim back in the article. -- Erp ( talk) 02:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Metanoia2019:, would you please stop editing the article disruptively? You have made edits that are dubious under WP:BLP; you need to stop doing that. As for your comments here: no, it is not appropriate to refer to Zacharias as "Mr. Zacharias". It is unnecessary, and indeed completely inappropriate. Please review MOS:HONORIFIC: "In general, honorific prefixes—styles and honorifics in front of a name—in Wikipedia's own voice should not be included, but may be discussed in the article." I am going to continue to remove the unnecessary and inappropriate "Mr". You need to stop restoring it. Freeknowledgecreator ( talk) 02:55, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Freeknowledgecreator: without putting too fine a point on it, you seem to be wishing to advance a particular POV in contravention of Wikipedia's NPOV guidelines. And the honorific guidelines you mention here do rather seem to say that honorifics may be included an article. You need to assume good faith. Would you please do so?
@ Metanoia2019: There is absolutely no way that Pulpit and Pen is a reliable source. It might be right but it is certainly not reliable. Also you seem to be extremely reluctant to bring up a serious discussion here and are skirting very close to the 3-revert rule if not over. Admittedly I found it somewhat amusing though annoying that you reverted my link to an Wikipedia entry that explained exactly why Zacharias's use of 'doctor' is considered inappropriate -- Erp ( talk) 04:44, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
The illness and death section is way to detailed. Can anyone explain why there should be so much detail? Thinks like: "Sarah Zacharias Davis, Zacharias' daughter and CEO of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) announced Zacharias would be returning to his home in Atlanta, Georgia for "whatever time the Lord gives us." " This is way to much information and makes it sound more like a personal note to some grieving friends, not an encyclopedia article. Mateck ( talk) 20:00, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Please can somebody add Kayleigh McEnany and Mike Pence's tribute to Ravi? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MyrddinGaius ( talk • contribs) 19:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
The reference to exaggeration of academic qualifications and sexual misconduct was taken out once. Please keep checking that this does not happen agsin. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 10:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
How should the co-authors be formatted under Bibliography? I've tried to find similar authors as examples, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how to display co-authors. Here, it seems that Vince Vitale and Abdu Murray should not be italicized as though part of the title of the work. (As well, The Logic of God is not co-authored by Vince Vitale, so Vince is not a sub-heading for Jesus Among Secular Gods and The Logic of God.) Redrocketred ( talk) 00:42, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Several contributors have been removing sources which I replaced. This is certainly not acceptable. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 11:59, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Material was taken out due to there being no source Was there a source earlier, which was removed? Proxima Centauri ( talk) 09:58, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
There was a further attempt to remove large amounts of material. Material was restored and the user warned. There is likely to be an ongoing need to check that material is not removed from this article without due reason. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 13:17, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
I just created a Talk-Entry for the redirect RZIM to this Page. I assume no one to notice it if I don't post it here, too
/info/en/?search=Talk:RZIM#Own_Page_for_RZIM,_deteached_from_RZs_Page
-- Thomas1311 ( talk) 10:37, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Another editor added in two places a very pronounced criticism of the US board's not disclosing the name of the board members. [3] I already reduced this to
"Nevertheless, the board was criticzed for refusing to "practice transparent governance" by not disclosing the identity of board members."
The point of this was both to tone the very strong language used and also to present an opinion - and a criticism is an opinion - as such.
However, I do tend to think this is all undue weight. The sole source for the entire issue is an article on the response of the UK branch ("RZIM UK Cutting Ties After US Board Response to Abuse Report Found to Be Inadequate" at https://churchleaders.com/news/390108-rzim-uk-cutting-ties-after-us-board-response-to-abuse-report-found-to-be-inadequate.html), which notes that all the UK board members signed with their names (so much is factual) and then goes on to take this as a comment on the different practice of the US board. IMO, one article is not enough to make this a notable criticism. Str1977 (talk) 18:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I took this out. I feel the law firm that did the investigation was reliable. Further indecent immages on devices is only a small part of the allegations against Zacharias. The rest of the allegations carry weight regardless of the owneship of devices. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 15:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
The sexual misconduct of Zacharias is a horrible thing - but should there be more about that than about his work? The whole article comes across as sensationalist. There is no need to shorten the section about sexual misconduct, but then the article should be as detailed in its description of, say, his apologetic argumentation, or his various travels and debates. There should be no zooming in on the lurid parts. 2.247.241.156 ( talk) 19:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
There is a somewhat lengthier testimony by Ravi on Facebook video (id: 272620220592637), and some other references about Ravi's first time preaching and his sense of how God's hand was on his life for preaching. Perhaps they could be mentioned in the Wikipedia article. Here are some links:
[4]
https://metrovoicenews.com/how-ravi-zacharias-found-christ-at-youth-for-christ/
[5]
https://reachfm.ca/articles/the-man-who-led-ravi-zacharias-to-jesus
72.38.201.181 (
talk)
15:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
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The edit warring IP that most recently reverted me here needs to be reverted in turn. The IP seems fixated on adding claims made by Zacharias because it finds them to be "bizarre". Listing claims made by living people in their BLPs simply because one finds them "bizarre" is a good example of unacceptable behaviour that leads to blocks. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 01:50, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
The article claims that Ravi Z is of Nambudiri descent. This claim without adequate context is bizarre because by Ravi Z's own account in the source cited only one of his great great great grandparents was Nambudiri Brahmin, who converted and married a Christian man. Saying he is of Nambudiri descent without this context is indeed bizarre and misleading. 81.141.94.0 ( talk) 02:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC)
I have no intent to make RZ look ridiculous. I added the information from the original source because without it the article would be factually wrong on the point made and misleading and that section of the article would be ridiculous. 5.80.230.221 ( talk) 00:14, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
Obviously a consensus will not be achieved if someone adamantly refuses reason and fact and opposes factual insertions because they don't like it. Your changes have no consensus either, btw.
The question as far as I am concerned is what has RZ said about his ancestry and to represent it properly. RZ does in his talks, his books and his speeches refer to his Brahmin heritage. It is a relevant piece of biographical information because it is something he identifies with strongly as evidenced from the source material.
He has also makes it clear that his heritage was through a distant relation in the source cited. There can be no dispute the additions I made are factual. They are relevant because without it the section about his Brahmin roots would become misleading and incorrect. The details I added were hence not undue nor inappropriate.
Asserting something as undue or inappropriate doesn't make it so, nor do your ad hominem attacks contribute to this discussion.
5.80.230.221 (
talk)
13:37, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
|
I can confirm I am one person- my IP changes. I have as advised created an account. I have a few responses, and yes I would invite external more experienced editors to review this 'edit warring' engaged by FreeKnowledgeCreator who insists on keeping factually incorrect material and misleading content on a page about a living person.
I would like to make the following points:
1. FreeKnowledgeCreator argument is mainly ad hominem. He refuses factual content from the cited source and wants to remove it in favour of incorrect content.
2. He has not engaged in any attempt at a compromise.
3. His argument that non-consensus means factually incorrect should be retained in the article is principally flawed. The existence of one rogue editor with certain motives to keep factual content away from the article and keep misleading claims in an article does not mean an article about a living person should be kept factually wrong.
4. He does not dispute the veracity of the edits, but 'the relevance' and the 'intention' of content.
5. I have explained the relevance of my edit, which he ignores:
5.1 The first edit is to insert information that RZ's lone Nambudiri Brahmin ancestor was his great great great grandmother. The reasons why this is relevant and necessary are as follows:
5.1.1 The original version claims RZ to be of Nambudiri Brahmin descent. This is not technically incorrect since RZ's great great great grandmother was according to RZ a Nambudiri Brahmin as per the source cited. However to say that RZ is of Nambudiri Brahmin descent when 1 out of 32 of his great great great grandparents was one, is I believe misleading.
5.1.2 However from the source cited it is clear that RZ identifies strongly with Nambudiri Brahmin identity, hence while ordinarily the caste or community background of 1 in 32 of his great great great grand-parents is usually not particularly relevant, it is here because of the way he self-identifies with that particular aspect of his family history and background.
5.1.3 RZ in many talks and interviews when asked about his family background talk about his Nambudiri Brhamin heritage, showing clearly that his claim of Nambudiri descent is a relevant when describing his family background. Therefore keeping this aspect of his family background in the article is relevant.
5.2. In the second edit, I clarified that it was his great great great grandmother that was converted by Swiss-German missionaries, not the branch of the entire family. This is a factual error corrected.
6. I do not speculate FreeKnowledgeCreator's motives. However I concede that I can see why a supporter (I don't speculate that FreeKnowledgeCreator is one) of RZ may not like the insertion of factual context regarding his Brahmin heritage claims. This is because RZ in many talks and speeches, not cited in wikipedia, emphasizes his family background as being of Brahmin heritage. Therefore it is possible, some of his misguided supporters may resent the insertion of factual context regarding his Brahmin heritage claims because they feel it seems to make RZ look less credible. However, RZ, as seen in the source cited, has described his family history comprehensively and is the very source of the factual insertions made.
7. FreeKnowledgeCreator's claims that stating that great great great grandparent as 'a distant relative' is unnecessary. This I can compromise on. I don't think it matters much either way. I don't however see why he should object it.
8. I have all respect for RZ and his skills as a scholar and preacher. I made the corrections so that a proper factual context is made regarding this particularly claim, as made by RZ in the cited source. Jabramse ( talk) 03:02, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
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It appears that nobody disputes that that Zacharias is of Brahmin descent, or the fact that the ancestor in question was several generation removed. The only dispute seem to to be whether it is appropriate to include information on how this descent is traced. I can't see any valid reason not to include it, since it seems ot be an important part of Zacharias' identity, provided we can find a reliable source. Since this is a source of some contention, we should probably keep as closely as possible to the wording used by the sources of the claim. Can somebody please quote for me the the wording used in whatever source this genealogy comes from? Mark Marathon ( talk) 04:57, 3 March 2015 (UTC) |
To respond to Jabramse. You complain that I refuse "factual content from the cited source and wants to remove it in favour of incorrect content." The fact that that content may be factual does not mean that it needs to go in the article: see WP:UNDUE. There are endless facts that do not belong in articles because they are trivial or otherwise inappropriate. You have never shown that the content you removed was incorrect. You actually admit that it is not "technically" incorrect. You claim that this bizarre detail is relevant because, "RZ in many talks and interviews when asked about his family background talk about his Nambudiri Brhamin heritage, showing clearly that his claim of Nambudiri descent is a relevant when describing his family background." But the importance of that particular detail depends on what reliable sources say about Zacharias, not so much what he says about himself. Unless reliable independent sources indicate that it's important, there's no reason to place it in the article. Mark Marathon, who offered the third opinion, seems to have absolutely no idea what he is talking about. Frankly, how would you know that this bizarre detail about precisely how Zacharias traces his descent from the Nambudiri Brhamin caste is "an important part" of his identity? The give away here is your concession that we need to "find a reliable source" to show that it is actually an important part of Zacharias's identity. The whole point is that there is no such source. Just a particularly persistent and disruptive editor who decided himself that it was important. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 05:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
At this time, it is a matter of confusion as to whether I am arguing with one person using multiple IP addresses (81.141.94.0 and 5.80.230.221), and now a user account (Jabramse) as well, or whether there are two or three different people. All the relevant IP addresses and the user account need to explain how they are related. If there is a perception that multiple accounts are being used, that may be actionable behavior. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 05:43, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
TMDrew removed the mention of Zacharias's views on homosexuality because they are "irrelevant to Zacharias' career and reason for notability." I find that argument to be nonsense. The views Zacharias has expressed on moral views (whether about homosexuality or anything else) clearly are relevant to his career. His moral views are based on his Christian beliefs, and his career has been based on promoting Christian beliefs. The material should be restored promptly. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 03:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 02:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
WP:BLP says: "Articles should document in a non-partisan manner what reliable secondary sources have published about the subjects." What secondary sources discuss Zacharias’ views on homosexuality? More than a lecture by the subject, we need secondary sources reporting and responding to that lecture. If such sources exist, are those sources as numerous as those that discuss other views he has expressed? BP:UNDUE says, "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence...". Giving weight to the subject’s opinions on waffles because one is interested in waffles is against policy: opinions on waffles belong in articles about waffle experts. I note that you just called a second editor "emotionally over-involved", called his example "bizarre", and you have previously termed my own observations "absurd" and "diversionary waffle and nonsense". If you believe this to be the case, AN/I is thataway ⇒ MarkBernstein ( talk) 15:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
I'm confused. Ravi spends considerably more time talking about evolution and thermodynamics than he does about homosexuality, yet there is no reference to his views on the main page. While homosexuality is certainly topical at the moment, it's hardly central to Ravi's work or history. It seems like a lot more information on his specific opinions and works should be added before this does.. ThealityBites ( talk) 00:41, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
MarkBenstein, I think you are misreading BLP if you think it means that primary sources can never be used in an article. The policy states, "Exercise extreme caution in using primary sources. Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses." Saying that Zacharias opposes homosexuality, based on what he has said about the subject, seems a perfectly reasonable use of a primary source. I can see why an entire section on Zacharias's view of homosexuality would be undue weight, but it doesn't violate the policy to simply mention his views briefly. FreeKnowledgeCreator ( talk) 01:21, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
This information should be maintained in the article. The article has cited both primary and secondary sources for this information, and the secondary source even mentions public controversy and protest surrounding Zacharias' views on the matter. Zacharias' frequent public statements on this issue, in combination with the public controversy his statements have provoked (as noted in secondary sources), make this information notable for inclusion in at least a sentence or two. CurtisNaito ( talk) 16:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
The text reports that Zaccharias spoke at a Veritas Forum at Harvard in 1993. The Veritas web site http://veritas.org/talks/?view=presenters&speaker_id=1947 reports only one Veritas Forum appearance, at Johns Hopkins, in 2013. MarkBernstein ( talk) 21:26, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
1992 https://www.christianbook.com/the-harvard-veritas-forum/ravi-zacharias/9781612560960/pd/1225BD This CD series contains two lectures and a question and answer session presented to packed audiences at the Harvard Law School. In the first message, Ravi examines the questions "Is Atheism Dead? Is God Alive?," after which he fields questions from the audience. Message two moves to the topic of "Getting to Truth" by addressing the questions "Who is Jesus? (And Why Does it Matter?)." The third message is a question and answer session where Ravi and a select number of Harvard scholars answer tough and thoughtful questions from the audience about the Christian faith. Some have heralded this forum as one of the most significant dialogues on truth on the Harvard campus in the past fifty years. (over 180 minutes) Thistledowne ( talk) 17:01, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I have added a reference to planned participation in the Together 16 meetings. Cpsoper ( talk) 13:30, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
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The ministry trip to Vietnam was flagged twice for clarification needed. Why not remove it, as a minor episode in his ministry anyway? Marfinan ( talk) 12:32, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
Marfinan ( talk) 09:37, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
Some web sites have reported a lawsuit involving the subject and other parties. As best I can find, no reliable source has yet covered the lawsuit, and the counterparties are clearly not notable. We should not cover this or publicize the lawsuit until and unless it is discussed in reliable sources — not merely in court filings. MarkBernstein ( talk) 00:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Since this started it seems Christianity Today covered this and also Ministry Watch (not sure whether this counts as a reliable source). RZIM has also made a statement on the use of "Dr.". An IP address added some stuff that mingles allowable and unallowable sources. I've filled in (partially) the cites that are reliable (or possibly allowable) and removed the others. The remaining statements I think are supported by the CT article, RZIM's statement, and Ministry Watch-- Erp ( talk) 20:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
I've been in contact with Steve Baughman FriendlyBanjoAtheist ( talk · contribs) for the last couple of months and most recently (March 1) he mailed his supporters (and people like me who think he's more interested in character assassination of a prominent Apologist which many atheists would very much like to see silenced in disgrace) trying to drum up support to get this article protected because his and another's (I assume the anonymous IP) edits were being altered/reverted. I informed him that he had to meet WP:Guidelines and such and that until he did, his changes would be reverted and he was in danger of getting the article protected as he wanted, only it would be against himself and others like him. I promised him that I would advocate for him on Talk if he provided cites that met guidelines for others to review for inclusion. I tried to explain that an edit-war would do nothing for his cause. He has provided this recent: https://www.christianpost.com/news/cma-denomination-decides-not-to-discipline-ravi-zacharias-over-credentials-illicit-relationship-220615/ He says that there are others he can provide so I've requested them but have not yet received them. If he does, I'll append for your consideration of whether or not he is able to provide enough to warrant some type of section inclusion on this topic... enough that he could create trouble for this article (protection and the like) if not included. Thistledowne ( talk) 17:25, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Disagree. Mr. Baughman's claims are all thoroughly documented on his site and he's certainly not alone in raising flags about Mr. Zacharias's behavior and habits of inflating his credentials. (See for example http://thewartburgwatch.com/2017/12/04/ravi-zacharias-why-i-dont-think-his-response-at-christianity-today-cleared-things-up/, https://christianresearchnetwork.org/2017/12/04/ravi-zacharias-responds-to-sexting-allegations-credentials-critique/, etc.) Wikipedia cannot ignore these critiques and I propose that we add a section that covers them in overview. (NB: I am not affiliated with Mr. Baughman nor am I on his mailing list. I've just become aware of the critiques of Mr. Zacharias from an unrelated source and was surprised / disappointed to see these concerns suppressed on wikipedia.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metanoia2019 ( talk • contribs) 03:48, 20 January 2020 (UTC) Addendum: I see that the lawsuit and inflated claims are covered in the article. The language could probably be even stronger - it's difficult to argue when the University of Oxford indicates that Mr. Zacharias was never employed by the university. I also disagree with the claim of "character assassination" as Mr. Baughman seems to have given Mr. Zacharias a great number of chances to explain himself, including in real time over a dinner. (Again, I am not related to Mr. Baughman nor am I on his mailing list. I'm just surprised to see a wikipedia editor suppress his researchs.)
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I noted that the reference on Zacharias's web site for the sentence "Zacharias held the chair in Evangelism and Contemporary Thought at Alliance Theological Seminary from 1981 to 1984" no longer listed the connection (removed around December 2017). It was alleged that the "Department of Evangelism and Contemporary Thought" never existed thereby making it difficult for him to have been the chair. Given that the response was to remove the claim from Zacharias's web site I think we need a strong third party source to support putting the claim back in the article. -- Erp ( talk) 02:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)
@ Metanoia2019:, would you please stop editing the article disruptively? You have made edits that are dubious under WP:BLP; you need to stop doing that. As for your comments here: no, it is not appropriate to refer to Zacharias as "Mr. Zacharias". It is unnecessary, and indeed completely inappropriate. Please review MOS:HONORIFIC: "In general, honorific prefixes—styles and honorifics in front of a name—in Wikipedia's own voice should not be included, but may be discussed in the article." I am going to continue to remove the unnecessary and inappropriate "Mr". You need to stop restoring it. Freeknowledgecreator ( talk) 02:55, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
@ Freeknowledgecreator: without putting too fine a point on it, you seem to be wishing to advance a particular POV in contravention of Wikipedia's NPOV guidelines. And the honorific guidelines you mention here do rather seem to say that honorifics may be included an article. You need to assume good faith. Would you please do so?
@ Metanoia2019: There is absolutely no way that Pulpit and Pen is a reliable source. It might be right but it is certainly not reliable. Also you seem to be extremely reluctant to bring up a serious discussion here and are skirting very close to the 3-revert rule if not over. Admittedly I found it somewhat amusing though annoying that you reverted my link to an Wikipedia entry that explained exactly why Zacharias's use of 'doctor' is considered inappropriate -- Erp ( talk) 04:44, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
The illness and death section is way to detailed. Can anyone explain why there should be so much detail? Thinks like: "Sarah Zacharias Davis, Zacharias' daughter and CEO of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) announced Zacharias would be returning to his home in Atlanta, Georgia for "whatever time the Lord gives us." " This is way to much information and makes it sound more like a personal note to some grieving friends, not an encyclopedia article. Mateck ( talk) 20:00, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Please can somebody add Kayleigh McEnany and Mike Pence's tribute to Ravi? — Preceding unsigned comment added by MyrddinGaius ( talk • contribs) 19:24, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
The reference to exaggeration of academic qualifications and sexual misconduct was taken out once. Please keep checking that this does not happen agsin. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 10:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
How should the co-authors be formatted under Bibliography? I've tried to find similar authors as examples, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus on how to display co-authors. Here, it seems that Vince Vitale and Abdu Murray should not be italicized as though part of the title of the work. (As well, The Logic of God is not co-authored by Vince Vitale, so Vince is not a sub-heading for Jesus Among Secular Gods and The Logic of God.) Redrocketred ( talk) 00:42, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Several contributors have been removing sources which I replaced. This is certainly not acceptable. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 11:59, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Material was taken out due to there being no source Was there a source earlier, which was removed? Proxima Centauri ( talk) 09:58, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
There was a further attempt to remove large amounts of material. Material was restored and the user warned. There is likely to be an ongoing need to check that material is not removed from this article without due reason. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 13:17, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
I just created a Talk-Entry for the redirect RZIM to this Page. I assume no one to notice it if I don't post it here, too
/info/en/?search=Talk:RZIM#Own_Page_for_RZIM,_deteached_from_RZs_Page
-- Thomas1311 ( talk) 10:37, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Another editor added in two places a very pronounced criticism of the US board's not disclosing the name of the board members. [3] I already reduced this to
"Nevertheless, the board was criticzed for refusing to "practice transparent governance" by not disclosing the identity of board members."
The point of this was both to tone the very strong language used and also to present an opinion - and a criticism is an opinion - as such.
However, I do tend to think this is all undue weight. The sole source for the entire issue is an article on the response of the UK branch ("RZIM UK Cutting Ties After US Board Response to Abuse Report Found to Be Inadequate" at https://churchleaders.com/news/390108-rzim-uk-cutting-ties-after-us-board-response-to-abuse-report-found-to-be-inadequate.html), which notes that all the UK board members signed with their names (so much is factual) and then goes on to take this as a comment on the different practice of the US board. IMO, one article is not enough to make this a notable criticism. Str1977 (talk) 18:59, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I took this out. I feel the law firm that did the investigation was reliable. Further indecent immages on devices is only a small part of the allegations against Zacharias. The rest of the allegations carry weight regardless of the owneship of devices. Proxima Centauri ( talk) 15:56, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
The sexual misconduct of Zacharias is a horrible thing - but should there be more about that than about his work? The whole article comes across as sensationalist. There is no need to shorten the section about sexual misconduct, but then the article should be as detailed in its description of, say, his apologetic argumentation, or his various travels and debates. There should be no zooming in on the lurid parts. 2.247.241.156 ( talk) 19:49, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
There is a somewhat lengthier testimony by Ravi on Facebook video (id: 272620220592637), and some other references about Ravi's first time preaching and his sense of how God's hand was on his life for preaching. Perhaps they could be mentioned in the Wikipedia article. Here are some links:
[4]
https://metrovoicenews.com/how-ravi-zacharias-found-christ-at-youth-for-christ/
[5]
https://reachfm.ca/articles/the-man-who-led-ravi-zacharias-to-jesus
72.38.201.181 (
talk)
15:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)