|
Quote:
- "Ratite chicks tend to be more omnivorous at 4 metres (13 ft)."
What is this meant to mean? I suspect a block of text has been removed here, leaving 2 sentence fragments. Someone could check the history for an errant deletion? Liam Proven ( talk) 13:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
someone added some sentences on how ratites developed in Gondwana because mammals "evolved in the northern hemisphere." First of all this is wrong Gondwana had mammals, secondly, there isn't anything about lack of mammalian predators allowing the evolution of ratites (except in specific cases like in NZ) in the ref at end of the paragraph, and as this is a fairly substantial claim made without reference to published references I am deleting it. Amdurbin ( talk)
oops, I misread the citing, it's a book that I haven't checked, but since the claims made are based on the fundemental assumption that there were "fewer" mammals in the southern hemisphere is wrong, and the paragraph is wrong in other ways, eg
"The existence of mammalian predators alongside smaller flightless birds has proven disastrous to these populations as evidenced by local and widespread extinctions of some Ratite species as these predators were introduced to different islands. Most Ratites evolved into larger and faster animals to escape the limited number of predators. Kiwis are an exception to this rule as they coped with predators by being secretive forest dwellers."
Kiwis didn't evolve in response to mammalian predators...what is evidence for ratites evolved into larger and faster animals specifically to escape a 'limited' number of predators...first sentence here implies that 'island ratites had trouble with introduced mammals' (humans included?) is evidence for ratites requiring absence of mammals to evolve...etc. so it still needs deletion Amdurbin ( talk)
I have merged the page Struthioniformes here, since the two were talking about the same group, and ratite appears to be the common name. It may be that I made the move in the wrong direction, though, and somebody more familiar with birds should confirm which name is in wider use. Some of the content has been removed, but it was a survey of the particular species included here, and so is repeated on their pages. I am not sure where the moas fit into the suborders given here.
Changing article text below:
To:
Reference: Kiwi Myths
Tabor 23:19, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The kiwi is described as "stroppy." I can't seem to find a meaning for this word. Is it from New Zealand English? Wachholder0 15:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Stroppy: Obstreperous, noisily and stubbornly defiant (Brit). [dmelliott: 20060304]
Could the types be presented in some logical order, presumably size?
Could all the same information capsules be presented for each type: height, weight, egg size, habitat, behaviour (ostriches are extremely agressive, while, though not small, the emu is shy, and the kiwi is "stroppy"), etc. Presumably, this is a comparative section. [dmelliott 20060304]
While current thinking on NZ pre-European settlement is moving towards an understanding that the first settlers arrived in the 13th century, this is not universally accepted in the mainstream. Some (eg Jim Williams (Ngāi Tahu), of Otago University) would still place the earliest settlement at around 850 AD. DNA analysis of kiore (Polynesian rats) indicates that the rats were in New Zealand about 2000 years ago. This points to a very early landfall, as they must have been brought here by humans, but the belief that there was actual settlement here at that time or earlier is the province of off-the-wall alternative New Age theorists. Copey 2 23:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody know of any instance of hybridization between ratites (Emu X Cassowary, Ostrich X Rhea, Greater Rhea X Lesser Rhea, etc.)? I have searched the internet endlessly and have found nothing on the subject. Has it been tried by ratite farmers? If nobody knows, I would at least like to hear opinions on the matter.
I have been checking this entry daily for weeks and still no answer. PLEASE!!!!!!! the next person to look at this discussion, write your opinion.
I suggest changing the first sentence to identify ratites as an " order" rather than a "diverse group." Ratites are an order of birds, and the article does not even suggest this fact until the discussion of its evolution. r3 13:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Is there any actual source that describes Chocobo as ratites? Or is the the assumption of fans based on the fact that it's a flightless bird? If the later, how do you know it's not a Mihirung or something? As this article illustrates, there are many, many forms of flightless birds besides ratites. Dinoguy2 15:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Some chocobos are capable of flight. This would seem to preclude their being ratites. I suspect it's just a guess. In earlier FF games, Chocobos were often thought to be more like large chickens, not the ostrich-like representation in the later and more graphically capable games. M0ffx 15:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I got the idea that they're a ratite from the Wiki article on Chocobos, but if they fly, which, yeah, some species do, then I guess they don't qualify. :) Perhaps it's a different genus, or something. What do I know from avis chocobii? :) -- Unsigned
Calling chocobos ratites is based on them being large, flightless birds with powerful legs for both running and kicking, all traits which are shared by the ostrich (which is the fastest living two-legged terrestial animal, and might even make a good riding animal in real life if not for its temperament). However, they differ from ratites in a number of morphological aspects, notably the shape of the beak and tail. The top of a chocobo's body is concave with a smooth curve from neck to tail, while the top of a ratite's body is convex and then turns upward at a sharp corner when you reach the neck.
Wee, applying rigorous scientific analysis to fictional species is fun! -- Milo
"Extinct by 1500 due to hunting by human settlers, who arrived around 1000, although at least one species may have survived past this date and maybe was seen by early European settlers."
"At least" can't go with "may" like this. What's the currently accepted theory - were they all dead or weren't they? Aaadddaaammm 21:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Can the different Ratites (Ostrich, Emu, Rhea) be kept together in the same enclosure, or free range?. - 01:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the systematics section. First, it was only from the discussion that I figured out that the ratites might not be monophyletic.
In view of that, can we say anything on speculations about closer relatives, such as the herons mentioned above?
"DNA analysis appears to show that the ratites diverged from one another too recently to share a common Gondwanian ancestor" Recent divergence means recent common ancestry, so it's consistent with a common Gondwanan ancestor. Should that say "diverged from each other too long ago"?
"However, recent analysis of genetic variation between the ratites conflicts with this [Gondwanan monophyly]: DNA analysis […] suggests that the kiwi are more closely related to the cassowaries than the moa." I don't see what which ratite is closest to the kiwi has to do with the monophyly of the whole group. And I think the sentence would be better as "the kiwi are more closely related to the cassowaries than the moa is", but I didn't change it because it might mean "the kiwi are more closely related to the cassowaries than to the moa".
I think more needs to be said about Palaeotis, at least that it could fly.
"Research continues, but at present the ratites are perhaps the one group of modern birds for which no robust theory of their evolution and paleobiogeography exists." Does that mean that perhaps no robust theory exists, or definitely no robust theory exists and perhaps the ratites are the only group without such a theory? I'd have trouble believing the latter—the AOU says incertae sedis about several groups.
"Struthioniformes sensu stricto": Can't we call this "Struthionidae" independent of all controversies? — JerryFriedman 04:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
In the intro section it says
What does it mean? I understand that there are living Ratite's so presumably it means the closed living relatives of some particular prehistoric ratite species? Billlion ( talk) 11:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Under "behavior - reproduction" there is this sentence, "Ostriches are the only ratites where they female incubates, and with them, they share the duties, with the males incubating at night. Kiwis stand out as the exception with a monogamous relationship."
It makes no sense to me at all and I would correct it except I have no clue what to correct it to.
Can an expert or someone with the proper knowledge please correct this sentence and provide a citation?
Thanks. 98.247.77.63 ( talk) 13:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
supposedly, I have read, from people here, that struthioniformes, rheiformes, apterygiformes, casuariiformes, Lithornithiformes, aepyornithformes, dinornithiformes, are all seperate orders, wheras in the past some of these were below struthioniformes. I can't find a source for this to verify. can someone point me in the right direction speednat ( talk) 00:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
New research has the extinct moa species as being most closely related to the tinamous rather than to other ratites. Big implications for this article. First the NZ Herald version, then the paper it derives from:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/science/news/article.cfm?c_id=82&objectid=10623539
http://sysbio.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/59/1/90
Kahuroa ( talk) 04:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Surely that's true of any group of animals, such as, say, the reptiles, and is not notable. Perhaps "many of them recently extinct"? 81.131.32.148 ( talk) 09:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
It makes a lot of sense to have separate lists of footnotes and references when one has numerous citations to different pages of the same source(s). Then one can substitute a long list of notes with short entries and a short list of references with long entries for a long list of references with long entries.
However, it really does not make sense to have separate lists of notes and references when there is only a single entry for each source in the notes list. Then the notes list is simply redundant, and just makes it harder for the reader to go from the point in the text where the citation occurs to the reference entry. WolfmanSF ( talk) 03:36, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
In the Evolution section:
"The longstanding story of ratite evolution was that they share a common flightless ancestor that lived in Gondwana, whose descendants were isolated from each other by continental drift,..."
This should say plate tectonics, as it does later in the section. Continental drift was an early 20th Century theory that the continents drifted around on the ocean. It's not the same as plate tectonics, which is the currently accepted theory. 24.59.58.64 ( talk) 02:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
In the article ratites are described as a polyphyletic group which excludes the tinamous, but I would argue that due to genetic evidence of their place in the clade, it makes more sense to describe ratites as a mostly flightless monophyletic group including the tinamous as the flighted exception which illustrate that flightlessness evolved convergently within the clade multiple times. 204.58.180.206 ( talk) 19:48, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
|
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
Quote:
- "Ratite chicks tend to be more omnivorous at 4 metres (13 ft)."
What is this meant to mean? I suspect a block of text has been removed here, leaving 2 sentence fragments. Someone could check the history for an errant deletion? Liam Proven ( talk) 13:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
someone added some sentences on how ratites developed in Gondwana because mammals "evolved in the northern hemisphere." First of all this is wrong Gondwana had mammals, secondly, there isn't anything about lack of mammalian predators allowing the evolution of ratites (except in specific cases like in NZ) in the ref at end of the paragraph, and as this is a fairly substantial claim made without reference to published references I am deleting it. Amdurbin ( talk)
oops, I misread the citing, it's a book that I haven't checked, but since the claims made are based on the fundemental assumption that there were "fewer" mammals in the southern hemisphere is wrong, and the paragraph is wrong in other ways, eg
"The existence of mammalian predators alongside smaller flightless birds has proven disastrous to these populations as evidenced by local and widespread extinctions of some Ratite species as these predators were introduced to different islands. Most Ratites evolved into larger and faster animals to escape the limited number of predators. Kiwis are an exception to this rule as they coped with predators by being secretive forest dwellers."
Kiwis didn't evolve in response to mammalian predators...what is evidence for ratites evolved into larger and faster animals specifically to escape a 'limited' number of predators...first sentence here implies that 'island ratites had trouble with introduced mammals' (humans included?) is evidence for ratites requiring absence of mammals to evolve...etc. so it still needs deletion Amdurbin ( talk)
I have merged the page Struthioniformes here, since the two were talking about the same group, and ratite appears to be the common name. It may be that I made the move in the wrong direction, though, and somebody more familiar with birds should confirm which name is in wider use. Some of the content has been removed, but it was a survey of the particular species included here, and so is repeated on their pages. I am not sure where the moas fit into the suborders given here.
Changing article text below:
To:
Reference: Kiwi Myths
Tabor 23:19, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The kiwi is described as "stroppy." I can't seem to find a meaning for this word. Is it from New Zealand English? Wachholder0 15:21, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
Stroppy: Obstreperous, noisily and stubbornly defiant (Brit). [dmelliott: 20060304]
Could the types be presented in some logical order, presumably size?
Could all the same information capsules be presented for each type: height, weight, egg size, habitat, behaviour (ostriches are extremely agressive, while, though not small, the emu is shy, and the kiwi is "stroppy"), etc. Presumably, this is a comparative section. [dmelliott 20060304]
While current thinking on NZ pre-European settlement is moving towards an understanding that the first settlers arrived in the 13th century, this is not universally accepted in the mainstream. Some (eg Jim Williams (Ngāi Tahu), of Otago University) would still place the earliest settlement at around 850 AD. DNA analysis of kiore (Polynesian rats) indicates that the rats were in New Zealand about 2000 years ago. This points to a very early landfall, as they must have been brought here by humans, but the belief that there was actual settlement here at that time or earlier is the province of off-the-wall alternative New Age theorists. Copey 2 23:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Does anybody know of any instance of hybridization between ratites (Emu X Cassowary, Ostrich X Rhea, Greater Rhea X Lesser Rhea, etc.)? I have searched the internet endlessly and have found nothing on the subject. Has it been tried by ratite farmers? If nobody knows, I would at least like to hear opinions on the matter.
I have been checking this entry daily for weeks and still no answer. PLEASE!!!!!!! the next person to look at this discussion, write your opinion.
I suggest changing the first sentence to identify ratites as an " order" rather than a "diverse group." Ratites are an order of birds, and the article does not even suggest this fact until the discussion of its evolution. r3 13:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Is there any actual source that describes Chocobo as ratites? Or is the the assumption of fans based on the fact that it's a flightless bird? If the later, how do you know it's not a Mihirung or something? As this article illustrates, there are many, many forms of flightless birds besides ratites. Dinoguy2 15:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Some chocobos are capable of flight. This would seem to preclude their being ratites. I suspect it's just a guess. In earlier FF games, Chocobos were often thought to be more like large chickens, not the ostrich-like representation in the later and more graphically capable games. M0ffx 15:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I got the idea that they're a ratite from the Wiki article on Chocobos, but if they fly, which, yeah, some species do, then I guess they don't qualify. :) Perhaps it's a different genus, or something. What do I know from avis chocobii? :) -- Unsigned
Calling chocobos ratites is based on them being large, flightless birds with powerful legs for both running and kicking, all traits which are shared by the ostrich (which is the fastest living two-legged terrestial animal, and might even make a good riding animal in real life if not for its temperament). However, they differ from ratites in a number of morphological aspects, notably the shape of the beak and tail. The top of a chocobo's body is concave with a smooth curve from neck to tail, while the top of a ratite's body is convex and then turns upward at a sharp corner when you reach the neck.
Wee, applying rigorous scientific analysis to fictional species is fun! -- Milo
"Extinct by 1500 due to hunting by human settlers, who arrived around 1000, although at least one species may have survived past this date and maybe was seen by early European settlers."
"At least" can't go with "may" like this. What's the currently accepted theory - were they all dead or weren't they? Aaadddaaammm 21:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Can the different Ratites (Ostrich, Emu, Rhea) be kept together in the same enclosure, or free range?. - 01:28, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the systematics section. First, it was only from the discussion that I figured out that the ratites might not be monophyletic.
In view of that, can we say anything on speculations about closer relatives, such as the herons mentioned above?
"DNA analysis appears to show that the ratites diverged from one another too recently to share a common Gondwanian ancestor" Recent divergence means recent common ancestry, so it's consistent with a common Gondwanan ancestor. Should that say "diverged from each other too long ago"?
"However, recent analysis of genetic variation between the ratites conflicts with this [Gondwanan monophyly]: DNA analysis […] suggests that the kiwi are more closely related to the cassowaries than the moa." I don't see what which ratite is closest to the kiwi has to do with the monophyly of the whole group. And I think the sentence would be better as "the kiwi are more closely related to the cassowaries than the moa is", but I didn't change it because it might mean "the kiwi are more closely related to the cassowaries than to the moa".
I think more needs to be said about Palaeotis, at least that it could fly.
"Research continues, but at present the ratites are perhaps the one group of modern birds for which no robust theory of their evolution and paleobiogeography exists." Does that mean that perhaps no robust theory exists, or definitely no robust theory exists and perhaps the ratites are the only group without such a theory? I'd have trouble believing the latter—the AOU says incertae sedis about several groups.
"Struthioniformes sensu stricto": Can't we call this "Struthionidae" independent of all controversies? — JerryFriedman 04:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
In the intro section it says
What does it mean? I understand that there are living Ratite's so presumably it means the closed living relatives of some particular prehistoric ratite species? Billlion ( talk) 11:22, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Under "behavior - reproduction" there is this sentence, "Ostriches are the only ratites where they female incubates, and with them, they share the duties, with the males incubating at night. Kiwis stand out as the exception with a monogamous relationship."
It makes no sense to me at all and I would correct it except I have no clue what to correct it to.
Can an expert or someone with the proper knowledge please correct this sentence and provide a citation?
Thanks. 98.247.77.63 ( talk) 13:13, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
supposedly, I have read, from people here, that struthioniformes, rheiformes, apterygiformes, casuariiformes, Lithornithiformes, aepyornithformes, dinornithiformes, are all seperate orders, wheras in the past some of these were below struthioniformes. I can't find a source for this to verify. can someone point me in the right direction speednat ( talk) 00:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
New research has the extinct moa species as being most closely related to the tinamous rather than to other ratites. Big implications for this article. First the NZ Herald version, then the paper it derives from:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/science/news/article.cfm?c_id=82&objectid=10623539
http://sysbio.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/59/1/90
Kahuroa ( talk) 04:23, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Surely that's true of any group of animals, such as, say, the reptiles, and is not notable. Perhaps "many of them recently extinct"? 81.131.32.148 ( talk) 09:36, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
It makes a lot of sense to have separate lists of footnotes and references when one has numerous citations to different pages of the same source(s). Then one can substitute a long list of notes with short entries and a short list of references with long entries for a long list of references with long entries.
However, it really does not make sense to have separate lists of notes and references when there is only a single entry for each source in the notes list. Then the notes list is simply redundant, and just makes it harder for the reader to go from the point in the text where the citation occurs to the reference entry. WolfmanSF ( talk) 03:36, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
In the Evolution section:
"The longstanding story of ratite evolution was that they share a common flightless ancestor that lived in Gondwana, whose descendants were isolated from each other by continental drift,..."
This should say plate tectonics, as it does later in the section. Continental drift was an early 20th Century theory that the continents drifted around on the ocean. It's not the same as plate tectonics, which is the currently accepted theory. 24.59.58.64 ( talk) 02:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
In the article ratites are described as a polyphyletic group which excludes the tinamous, but I would argue that due to genetic evidence of their place in the clade, it makes more sense to describe ratites as a mostly flightless monophyletic group including the tinamous as the flighted exception which illustrate that flightlessness evolved convergently within the clade multiple times. 204.58.180.206 ( talk) 19:48, 10 February 2024 (UTC)