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How can one be sunni if one does not consider Hassan ibn Ali as kuhlafa rashidun. Sunnis do consider Hassan to be kuhlafa rashidun. That is why they say in urdu panch yaar haaq(five rigthly guided friends). Any comments? -- Imranal 20:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
That isn't right. There are only 4 rightly guided Caliphs. Abu Bakr, Umar ibn al-khattab, Uthman bin Affan, and Ali ibn Abi talib. The people became treacherous during the caliphate of Uthman. Hassan was only caliph for a very short time then he turned it over to Mu'awiyah. -- CherryBlossom93 ( talk) 23:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the part that's talking about Al Hassan ibn Ali due to the fact that the reference link doesn't work and no one in the Islamic (sunni) world calls him that. P.S. there is no such thing called "Wahabi". --Regards,( Alpha4th ( talk) 12:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC))
In addition to this, there are several views regarding additional rashidun: * Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib, who was the eldest son of Fatimah the daughter of Muhammad, briefly succeeded his father Ali as caliph in 661 CE and is recognized by several historians who? as part of the Rashidun. [1] Hasan ibn Ali abdicated his right to the caliphate in favour of Muawiyah I in order to end the potential for ruinous civil war. [2] [3] * `Umar ibn `Abdul-`Aziz, who was one of the Umayyad caliphs, has often been regarded by Sunni historians as one of the Rashidun, as quoted by Taftazani. More rarely, the Ottoman caliph Fatih Sultan Mehmed (Mehmed II) is also sometimes regarded to be among the rightly guided caliphs. In the Ibadi tradition however, only the first two caliphs, Abu Bakr and Umar are considered to be the "Two Rightly Guided Caliphs". * Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani also includes the Abbassid caliphs, including Harun al-Rashid, in his enumeration.
IMHO, none of these belong into the article. Apart from the lack of a accessible source for Hasan, the "Rashidun" are a group of four specific rulers. Saying that Hasan or somebody should be included doesn't change that. Also, while there are apparently some who argue for their inclusion, it is unclear if the argument is actually for these individuals to be legitimate Caliphs, or for classifying them as "rightly-guided" (a value judgment) or as part of the group called "Rashidun Caliphs". Only the latter argument is relevant here but it seemes the areas are mixed up. Str1977 (talk) 09:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
The term is used in both sunni and Shia Islam although there is a difference in (Tafseer)the explination of the term.-- Aziz1005 20:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someoen clarify this?
The article states "Another reason for this support for Ali as the first caliph is because he had the same relationship to Muhammad as Aaron had to Moses"
In the Hebrew Bible (Jewish and Christian) Moses and Aaron are brothers. According to the article, Ali is Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law. In the main article about Ali states:
Non-Muslim views Edward Gibbon (British 18th century historian)is Quoted: "From the first hour of his mission to the last rites of his funeral, the apostle was never forsaken by a generous friend, whom he delighted to name his brother, his vicegerent, and the faithful Aaron of a second Moses."
Gibbon is describing Ali's loyalty, not the reason he was chosen as Caliph.
I suggest deleting or changing the first statement, Rgbutler ( talk) 23:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
After clarifying any possible errors in pronunciation or dialects, Uthman sent copies of the sacred text to each of the Muslim cities and garrison towns, and destroyed variant texts. It is also important to mention that this text was not questioned by any of the followers of Islam, even those who were alive during the time of Muhammad This statement is asking for a citation, but I feel it should be deleted outright as it assumes too much that is unverifiable. Comments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silverstairs ( talk • contribs) 01:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
This article seems to consist of editor's own opinions about the early caliphs. Very little of it is backed up by citations. I doubt its neutrality.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 08:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
It seems that Rashidun and Rashidun Caliphate cover the same topic. Shouldn't they be merged? Marcocapelle ( talk) 09:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
@ DA1: Firstly, the quotations which are not straight are meant to reflect the fact that the Arabic names, such as 'علي' and 'عثمان', have letters that do not usually have equivalents in the English language, the letter 'ع' in the case of these 2 names, which is pronounced from the throat, and they do not necessarily make it harder for users to search for those names, since links for these 2 men exist without the apostrophe, so it doesn't matter if you insert the apostrophe or not, it should still return the same result when searching.
Secondly, Hasan ibn Ali's role in the end of the Rashidun Caliphate and rise of the Umayyad Dynasty, that is, that he was the Caliph who negotiated the transfer of power to Muawiyah I, to end the First Fitna, is too important to ignore, from a historical POV. Leo1pard ( talk) 16:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
And here is the reference on Hasan being a "Rightly Guided" Caliph, even if his rule was temporary. [4] Leo1pard ( talk) 04:14, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)
عصام محمد شبارو 1995
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Madelung1997
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Leo1pard ( talk) 04:14, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm hopefully going to work on this article over the course of the next few weeks to improve the presentation of Shia views. I'll discuss any major changes in this section. In particular, some of the content is unsourced and should be either removed or cited. Albertatiran ( talk) 18:38, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
I'll soon change the first paragraph of Ali's section into a short bio, dotted by qualifications, instead of my earlier edits which, in the hindsight, looks like a laundry list of distinctions. Albertatiran ( talk) 09:54, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I'd like to remove the following questionable content from Abu Bakr's section. The first source is primary and the second one is from an unreliable publisher.
...In which Ali ibn Abi Talib and Zubayr ibn al-Awam replied, "and we believe that Abu Bakr is the righteous successor of the Messenger of Allah". [1] When Ali and Zubayr give bay'ah to Abu Bakr and this fitna ended, Fatimah, the daughter of the Prophet Muhammad and wife of Ali, was happy and satisfied with Abu Bakr and Umar, This event is mentioned in both Shia and Sunni academic books. [2]
Another unsourced and questionable sentence that I'd like to remove:
...since the religious function and authority of prophethood ended with Muhammad's death according to Islam.
References
I have begun cleaning up the references and citations. I started by adding what was missing and moving book with harvtxt references into a bibliography. I expect to return and continue that work.
I would also like to convert the verbose <ref>{{harvtxt|name|year|page}}</ref>
into easier to maintain {{sfn|name|year|page}}
. I will do so if there is no objection raised.
ref: Template:Harvard citation text and Template:Sfn —¿philoserf? ( talk) 15:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused about the precise scope of this article; it seems to overlap with Rashidun Caliphate a lot. Even the title adds to this: is it about the Righteousness of these caliphs as a concept? A collective bio? The caliphate generally? The first of these seems to make the most sense, but the lead really doesn't make that clear, and the subsequent contents then wander all over the place. If this can't be cleared up, perhaps the article should be merged outright? 109.255.211.6 ( talk) 07:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Rashidun article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
How can one be sunni if one does not consider Hassan ibn Ali as kuhlafa rashidun. Sunnis do consider Hassan to be kuhlafa rashidun. That is why they say in urdu panch yaar haaq(five rigthly guided friends). Any comments? -- Imranal 20:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
That isn't right. There are only 4 rightly guided Caliphs. Abu Bakr, Umar ibn al-khattab, Uthman bin Affan, and Ali ibn Abi talib. The people became treacherous during the caliphate of Uthman. Hassan was only caliph for a very short time then he turned it over to Mu'awiyah. -- CherryBlossom93 ( talk) 23:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the part that's talking about Al Hassan ibn Ali due to the fact that the reference link doesn't work and no one in the Islamic (sunni) world calls him that. P.S. there is no such thing called "Wahabi". --Regards,( Alpha4th ( talk) 12:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC))
In addition to this, there are several views regarding additional rashidun: * Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abi Talib, who was the eldest son of Fatimah the daughter of Muhammad, briefly succeeded his father Ali as caliph in 661 CE and is recognized by several historians who? as part of the Rashidun. [1] Hasan ibn Ali abdicated his right to the caliphate in favour of Muawiyah I in order to end the potential for ruinous civil war. [2] [3] * `Umar ibn `Abdul-`Aziz, who was one of the Umayyad caliphs, has often been regarded by Sunni historians as one of the Rashidun, as quoted by Taftazani. More rarely, the Ottoman caliph Fatih Sultan Mehmed (Mehmed II) is also sometimes regarded to be among the rightly guided caliphs. In the Ibadi tradition however, only the first two caliphs, Abu Bakr and Umar are considered to be the "Two Rightly Guided Caliphs". * Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani also includes the Abbassid caliphs, including Harun al-Rashid, in his enumeration.
IMHO, none of these belong into the article. Apart from the lack of a accessible source for Hasan, the "Rashidun" are a group of four specific rulers. Saying that Hasan or somebody should be included doesn't change that. Also, while there are apparently some who argue for their inclusion, it is unclear if the argument is actually for these individuals to be legitimate Caliphs, or for classifying them as "rightly-guided" (a value judgment) or as part of the group called "Rashidun Caliphs". Only the latter argument is relevant here but it seemes the areas are mixed up. Str1977 (talk) 09:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
The term is used in both sunni and Shia Islam although there is a difference in (Tafseer)the explination of the term.-- Aziz1005 20:05, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Can someoen clarify this?
The article states "Another reason for this support for Ali as the first caliph is because he had the same relationship to Muhammad as Aaron had to Moses"
In the Hebrew Bible (Jewish and Christian) Moses and Aaron are brothers. According to the article, Ali is Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law. In the main article about Ali states:
Non-Muslim views Edward Gibbon (British 18th century historian)is Quoted: "From the first hour of his mission to the last rites of his funeral, the apostle was never forsaken by a generous friend, whom he delighted to name his brother, his vicegerent, and the faithful Aaron of a second Moses."
Gibbon is describing Ali's loyalty, not the reason he was chosen as Caliph.
I suggest deleting or changing the first statement, Rgbutler ( talk) 23:09, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
After clarifying any possible errors in pronunciation or dialects, Uthman sent copies of the sacred text to each of the Muslim cities and garrison towns, and destroyed variant texts. It is also important to mention that this text was not questioned by any of the followers of Islam, even those who were alive during the time of Muhammad This statement is asking for a citation, but I feel it should be deleted outright as it assumes too much that is unverifiable. Comments? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Silverstairs ( talk • contribs) 01:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
This article seems to consist of editor's own opinions about the early caliphs. Very little of it is backed up by citations. I doubt its neutrality.-- Toddy1 ( talk) 08:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)
It seems that Rashidun and Rashidun Caliphate cover the same topic. Shouldn't they be merged? Marcocapelle ( talk) 09:42, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
@ DA1: Firstly, the quotations which are not straight are meant to reflect the fact that the Arabic names, such as 'علي' and 'عثمان', have letters that do not usually have equivalents in the English language, the letter 'ع' in the case of these 2 names, which is pronounced from the throat, and they do not necessarily make it harder for users to search for those names, since links for these 2 men exist without the apostrophe, so it doesn't matter if you insert the apostrophe or not, it should still return the same result when searching.
Secondly, Hasan ibn Ali's role in the end of the Rashidun Caliphate and rise of the Umayyad Dynasty, that is, that he was the Caliph who negotiated the transfer of power to Muawiyah I, to end the First Fitna, is too important to ignore, from a historical POV. Leo1pard ( talk) 16:54, 4 June 2017 (UTC)
And here is the reference on Hasan being a "Rightly Guided" Caliph, even if his rule was temporary. [4] Leo1pard ( talk) 04:14, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
{{
cite web}}
: Unknown parameter |deadurl=
ignored (|url-status=
suggested) (
help)
عصام محمد شبارو 1995
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Madelung1997
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Leo1pard ( talk) 04:14, 5 June 2017 (UTC)
I'm hopefully going to work on this article over the course of the next few weeks to improve the presentation of Shia views. I'll discuss any major changes in this section. In particular, some of the content is unsourced and should be either removed or cited. Albertatiran ( talk) 18:38, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
I'll soon change the first paragraph of Ali's section into a short bio, dotted by qualifications, instead of my earlier edits which, in the hindsight, looks like a laundry list of distinctions. Albertatiran ( talk) 09:54, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
I'd like to remove the following questionable content from Abu Bakr's section. The first source is primary and the second one is from an unreliable publisher.
...In which Ali ibn Abi Talib and Zubayr ibn al-Awam replied, "and we believe that Abu Bakr is the righteous successor of the Messenger of Allah". [1] When Ali and Zubayr give bay'ah to Abu Bakr and this fitna ended, Fatimah, the daughter of the Prophet Muhammad and wife of Ali, was happy and satisfied with Abu Bakr and Umar, This event is mentioned in both Shia and Sunni academic books. [2]
Another unsourced and questionable sentence that I'd like to remove:
...since the religious function and authority of prophethood ended with Muhammad's death according to Islam.
References
I have begun cleaning up the references and citations. I started by adding what was missing and moving book with harvtxt references into a bibliography. I expect to return and continue that work.
I would also like to convert the verbose <ref>{{harvtxt|name|year|page}}</ref>
into easier to maintain {{sfn|name|year|page}}
. I will do so if there is no objection raised.
ref: Template:Harvard citation text and Template:Sfn —¿philoserf? ( talk) 15:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused about the precise scope of this article; it seems to overlap with Rashidun Caliphate a lot. Even the title adds to this: is it about the Righteousness of these caliphs as a concept? A collective bio? The caliphate generally? The first of these seems to make the most sense, but the lead really doesn't make that clear, and the subsequent contents then wander all over the place. If this can't be cleared up, perhaps the article should be merged outright? 109.255.211.6 ( talk) 07:33, 3 October 2022 (UTC)