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Khalidi has participated in Palestinian politics at different stages of his career. "I was deeply involved in politics in Beirut" in the 1970's, he said in an interview.[CITE] Khalidi was cited in the media during this period, sometimes as an official with the Palestinian News Service, Wafa, or directly with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. [CITE] Responding to depiction as an official PLO spokesman, Khalidi stated that he "…often spoke to journalists in Beirut, who usually cited me without attribution as a well-informed Palestinian source."[CITE] If some misidentified me at the time, I am not aware of it."[Wash Times IIRC] Subsequent sources disagree on the nature of Khalidi's official relationship with the organization.[CITE]
From 1991 to 1993 Khalidi was a member of the Palestinian delegation to negotiations between Palestinians, Israel and the United States in Madrid and in Washington.[30] He has become increasingly critical of the PLO. He has said that in the PLO's negotiations with the Israelis in Oslo,"the mistakes were horrifying. They made horrible mistakes in governing."[33] He has called the current PLO-led government in the West Bank "thieves, opportunists and collaborators."[34] (Khalidi’s denunciation of suicide bombing to go here, Mackan to insert.) In 2007, Jacob Lassner and S. Ilan Troen wrote that Khalidi's experience as an official in Beirut "exposed him to the corruption and highhandedness of the political leadership, which he acknowledged in public forums--an act of no small courage."
Historicist ( talk) 16:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
"nature or existence" perhaps? Also, maybe we should get a version WITH the citations (and a reflist section) in a collapsable box so we have a markup of text and sources before we put it into the article? -- Avi ( talk) 16:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
{{
collapse top}}
===Heading===
Text with citations
===References===
{{
reflist}}
{{
collapse bottom}}
--
Avi (
talk)
18:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay. Here is the text with some of the proposed citations. I moved to the agreed "nature or existence" phrasing.
User:Mackan, [[User:Wikidemon], I assume that you have the proper citations for several sentences at your fingertips and can insert them easily. On the last sentence of the first paragraph. I put three references. There are probably about a hundred available. I believe that we should try to keep the number down.
Historicist (
talk)
20:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Expand for suggested text and references.
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---|
Suggested text
References
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I've wikified the boxes and grouped these refs as "suggestion" so as not to have "reflist" pull the stuff above. when moving it into the article, we'll obviously remove the group name. -- Avi ( talk) 20:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Also, I'll fill out the appropriate cite templates once we have a working text. -- Avi ( talk) 20:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Take your time. We've been working on this paragraph at high intensity for weeks, and it has been an issue on and off for many months now. A few more days to finally have an acceptable consensus version is perfectly fine :) -- Avi ( talk) 23:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I would like to hear where the above proposal was intended to go, but looking again at the article, it seems to me that a simpler option may be something like the following, placed between the second and third paragraphs of the
Family, Education and Career section:
Khalidi became politically active in Beirut, where he resided through the 1982 Lebanon War. "I was deeply involved in politics in Beirut the 1970's," he has said in an interview. Khalidi was cited in the media during this period, sometimes as an official with the Palestinian News Service, Wafa, or directly with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. After the issue was raised in the 2008 United States presidential election due to a reported friendship with the Democratic candidate Barack Obama, the nature of Khalidi's affiliations during this time remain unsettled. In 2007, Jacob Lassner and S. Ilan Troen wrote that Khalidi's experience as an official in Beirut "exposed him to the corruption and highhandedness of the political leadership, which he acknowledged in public forums--an act of no small courage."
The sentence about the 1991 Madrid conference could then be inserted into the next paragraph, while I'm not sure that the sentence about his time constraints would then be necessary. I'm not certain whether it is a problem that this leaves out the denial, but possibly this would be another option. Mackan79 ( talk) 06:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
April 10, 2008 http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obamamideast10apr10,0,7297945,print.story Khalidi's friend and frequent dinner companion, the young state Sen. Barack Obama. Speaking to the crowd, Obama reminisced about meals prepared by Khalidi's wife, Mona, and conversations that had challenged his thinking. the word friends is used several times. and the relationship is detailed at length. Historicist ( talk) 18:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
A few notes, although I don't mind continuing to work on the other proposal:
by Jennifer Senior New York Magazine January 10, 2005 http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/education/features/10868/ Historicist ( talk) 20:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm interested in any case to hear where the larger proposal is intended to go, although wherever that is, I think will clarify a number of continuing problems with the proposal. Mackan79 ( talk) 20:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Khalidi has participated in Palestinian politics at different stages of his career. "I was deeply involved in politics in Beirut" in the 1970's, he said in an interview.[CITE] Khalidi was cited in the media during this period, sometimes as an official with the Palestinian News Service, Wafa, or directly with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. [CITE] Responding to depiction as an official PLO spokesman, Khalidi stated that he "…often spoke to journalists in Beirut, who usually cited me without attribution as a well-informed Palestinian source."[CITE] If some misidentified me at the time, I am not aware of it."[Wash Times IIRC] Subsequent sources disagree on the nature of Khalidi's official relationship with the organization.[CITE]
From 1991 to 1993 Khalidi was a member of the Palestinian delegation to negotiations between Palestinians, Israel and the United States in Madrid and in Washington.[30] He has become increasingly critical of the PLO. He has said that in the PLO's negotiations with the Israelis in Oslo,"the mistakes were horrifying. They made horrible mistakes in governing."[33] He has called the current PLO-led government in the West Bank "thieves, opportunists and collaborators."[34] (Khalidi’s denunciation of suicide bombing to go here, Mackan to insert.) In 2007, Jacob Lassner and S. Ilan Troen wrote that Khalidi's experience as an official in Beirut "exposed him to the corruption and highhandedness of the political leadership, which he acknowledged in public forums--an act of no small courage."
Historicist ( talk) 18:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I am, as I ever have been, willing to add this material to the bio as a consensus that it well-sourced, not a violation of BPL, or NPOV, and, that it therefore belongs in the article. I am also happy to have it as a subsection of Public Life. Historicist ( talk) 20:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
With all of the discussion we are having, it would be nice if we could get a free-use photo of him for the article. -- Avi ( talk) 17:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The material added by ChildofMidnight is unacceptable for several reasons.
The first paragraph: "Rashid Khalidi was noted by media for working as a spokesman for the PLO in Lebanon between 1976 and 1982 as well as heading Palestinian press agency Wafa.[25][26][27] However, The Washington Times reported in 2004 that Khalidi was denying that he ever worked for the PLO.[28]" Khalidi was not noted by these media for working as a spokesman. He was quoted in these media, under different appellations. To assemble three of these citations and make this kind of statement is original research ( WP:SYNTH), contentious, and unacceptable in a BLP. Second but equally importantly, the Washington Times does not show him denying that he "ever worked for the PLO." The statement is only as to being a "spokesman," and it is a highly partisan source (the article's title: "Arafat Minion as Professor").
The second paragraph: "In his book Palestinian Identity, Khalidi writes of being asked by Faisal al-Husayni, a leader of the PLO, to serve as an advisor if Palestinian-Israeli negotiations were begun.[29] Khalidi agreed to serve at the Madrid Conference of 1991. He was required to travel to the various meeting points - Madrid, Oslo, Jerusalem and Washington D.C. - for weeks at a time over a two year period. Khalidi worked alongside other notable advisors including Faisal al-Husayni. [30]" First, the statement that al-Husayni is a leader of the PLO is not found in the source; including this statement is again a contentious use of original synthesis. Khalidi is widely reported to have served at the Madrid conference; no reliable source that I am aware of states that he served the PLO or connects this to the PLO. This paragraph has no place in a discussion of "Relations with PLO," if such a discussion should exist.
The last paragraph: "Khalidi wrote: "The Palestinian-Israeli negotiations at Madrid, Washington D.C., and Oslo, starting in 1991, appeared to put the process toward statehood back on track, and seemed to justify the highest hopes of, and for, the PLO." [31]" This is pure original synthesis, again to suggest that he was serving the PLO in Madrid, when in fact the statement has nothing to do with Khalidi's service at the conference.
Good faith or not, this material is completely unacceptable. I will remove it so that we can return to discussion about something that could work. Mackan79 ( talk) 02:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm very surprised to see you assert that I haven't discussed the sourced material on the talk page. As you know I've repeatedly suggested altering the content to address any issues you are raising. Wholesale deletion of sourced content is grossly inappropriate. There are many sources in the section I added and they are reliable, scuh as the LA Times. The LA Times says he was a spokeperson, so it's well sourced and if you have another source that condradicts that, please add it. I object to your removing an entire section rather than correcting or clarifying it. Please put the material back with any corrections needed instead of removing all of it. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 05:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Whether fixing material is simple or not fixes need to be attempted. It's not right to just remove a whole section of content and keep out any and all controversies no matter how notable. Where is the accurate version of this information that you are proposing? It's been two months now. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 13:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
The fact that Khalidi worked for the PLO in Beirut before 1983 is well established by reliable, secondary sources. The news articles that mention Rashid Khalidi in his Beirut period between 1976 and 1984 are collected here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rashid_Khalidi/Archive_6#The_Evidence While it is true that some of these articles quote him without describing him as a PLO spokesman, it is equally true that some articles quote him without describing him as a professor. What they do say, however, is that he worked for the PLO. While one article describes him as "close to Al Fatah" and another as "a Palestinian with good access to the PLO leadership," the great majority of these articles, in major news sources including the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times describe him in a straightforward fashion as a “spokesman” “spokesperson” “official” “a director of the (PLO) press agency” or as an academic who “works for the PLO.” In these interviews, Khalidi sometimes describes PLO positions and activities using the pronoun “we” For example, in 1981, he was quoted by the Christian Science Monitor explaining the relationship between the PLO headquarters in Beirut and the Palestinians in Israel.: “we have built up tremendous links with the Palestinians 'on the inside' in different ways. We can render them services, often through our compatriots in the West, that King Hussein, for example, could never match. We've never been stronger there…” Multiple very reliable sources prove that Khalidi worked for the PLO in Beirut. This is a significant part of the man’s career. And an important fact to include in an article about a man whose entire career, after all, has been devoted to writing about Arab nationalism, whose most significant book is a history of Palestinian nationalism, and who is a leading spokesman in English for the Palestinian national cause. Historicist ( talk) 22:23, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Khalidi became politically active in Beirut, where he resided through the 1982 Lebanon War. "I was deeply involved in politics in Beirut" in the 1970's, he said in an interview. [source 1] Khalidi was cited in the media during this period, sometimes as an official with the Palestinian News Service, Wafa, or directly with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. [source 2] However, Khalidi has denied that he was a PLO spokesman, [source 3] stating that he "…often spoke to journalists in Beirut, who usually cited me without attribution as a well-informed Palestinian source. If some misidentified me at the time, I am not aware of it." [source 4] Subsequent sources disagree on the nature or existence of Khalidi's official relationship with the organization. [source 5] In 2007, Jacob Lassner and S. Ilan Troen wrote that Khalidi's experience as an official in Beirut "exposed him to the corruption and highhandedness of the political leadership, which he acknowledged in public forums--an act of no small courage." [source 6]
Comment+query: in general, this version seems ok though I think the sentense about "Subsequent sources disagree" should be clarifid a bit further. It currently reads (to me) a bit like it's more supportive of the 'is not' version and I believe it should actually lean a bit towards the '[soucres say] he is' considering the reliable sources I've encountered personally (e.g. Ehud Yeari). Still, seems like an oversall reasonable version. What were the general objections with this version? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 23:17, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems that everyone recently involved has said in one way or another that they can accept the current proposed version we have been editing of late as the way this article deals with Khalidi's reported relationship with the PLO. See the "Suggested text (under construction)" heading. Can we confirm this and, if so, ask that it be implemented under article probation? I am taking the liberty of adding a note about each person's apparent approval, in italics so it's clear this is just my summary. Feel free to replace this with your actual statement about the matter. Wikidemon ( talk) 01:10, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
(Can someone else propose this? Thx) - Wikidemon ( talk) 01:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I think that the article needs restructuring, but at the moment I see two possible places for the paragraph:
Under the current structure, I think "Views on Israeli-Palestinian conflict" is more appropriate, but I would prefer to see career spun off from "Family and education" and the entire "Public life" section merged into a "Career/Views" section. -- Avi ( talk) 16:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I come back after a near agreement on the following as a consensus edit and find massive edit wars and a locked article. Someone, please clue me in on what happened? -- Avi ( talk) 00:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
User:ChildofMidnight put up a version of the material using not the version we were wroking on but a blunt version that, while sourced, was not couched in language Wikidemon liked. User:Wikidemon locked the page, and started flinging nasty and inaccurate accusations here: WP:AN/I#Article ownership. I suspect that Wikidemon's acton, locking the page and writing this WP:AN/I#Article ownership instead of inviting Child of Midnight to come back to the talk page, or just putting up the consensus language, is evidence of Wikidemon's determination to block this material from ever going on the page. Historicist ( talk) 00:27, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Unacceptable use of citation needed tags [33]
In Resurrecting Empire: Western Footprints and America's Perilous Path in the Middle East (2004), Khalidi takes readers on a historical tour of Western intervention in the Middle East, and argues that these interventions continue to have a colonialist nature that is both morally unacceptable and likely to backfire.[citation needed]
Suitable citation is:- Rashid Khalidi (2005) Resurrecting Empire: Western Footprints and America's Perilous Path in the Middle East Beacon Press, ISBN 0807002356 p v introduction. the book itself in the introduction states what is encapsulated by the article. Whoever placed the citation needed tag may wish to re-read WP:CIVIL before, what appears to be, unnecessary flyby tagging... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
University of California Journal of Palestine Studies current editorial staff. citation for first citation needed tag on Academic work that took 0.22 seconds to find on google.... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:34, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
second citation needed is a spurious tag as the information is contained within the article. Look in the Bibliography
The second tag should therefore be removed as it is disruptive.... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:38, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Third tag in accademic work:-
"There is of course, a great mass of custom-tailored information in books, newspapers and magazine articles. Unfortunately, most of these fall into the categories of pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian propaganda or disinformation ... The exceptions, however deserve the highest praise; whatever their stance or political orientation, their concern was primarily with information and understanding ... The other exception is the Journal of Palestine Studies, published and edited by Hisham Sharabi since 1971, a quarterly magazine that is critically pro-PLO, but invaluable in its documentation of the PLO position. Unfortunately, no comparable journal exists yet in Israel."
- David Kimche, former Director-General of the Israeli Foreign Ministry, writing of sources "on our relations with the Palestinians" <refKimche, David (1991). The Last Option: After Nasser, Arafat & Saddam Hussein: The Quest for Peace in the Middle East. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 322–323. ISBN 0-684-19422-8./ref>
quote taken directly from Journal of Palestine Studies article... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
citation for first citation needed tag Public life Layola University of Chicago Dr. Rashid Khalidi is President of the American Committee on Jerusalem, and editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies. He was an advisor to the Palestinian delegation to the Madrid and Washington Arab-Israeli peace negotiations from October 1991 until June 1993.... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Citation needed number one in the article. And as to "has Khalidi taught at Columbia" even the extremist organisation Campus watch do not challenge Khalidi's academic credentials....
Ismail Khalidi was actually a Saudi citizen, educated in American schools in Lebanon and in the U.S. — including at Columbia, his son Rashid's current pulpit, where the elder Khalidi got his doctorate in 1955.
Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 13:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
The article has been undergoing intense discussions for weeks and weeks now, Ashley. We are very close to a consensus, so some extra patience is called for. Once the article is unlocked, we can address other issues. -- Avi ( talk) 13:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 |
Khalidi has participated in Palestinian politics at different stages of his career. "I was deeply involved in politics in Beirut" in the 1970's, he said in an interview.[CITE] Khalidi was cited in the media during this period, sometimes as an official with the Palestinian News Service, Wafa, or directly with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. [CITE] Responding to depiction as an official PLO spokesman, Khalidi stated that he "…often spoke to journalists in Beirut, who usually cited me without attribution as a well-informed Palestinian source."[CITE] If some misidentified me at the time, I am not aware of it."[Wash Times IIRC] Subsequent sources disagree on the nature of Khalidi's official relationship with the organization.[CITE]
From 1991 to 1993 Khalidi was a member of the Palestinian delegation to negotiations between Palestinians, Israel and the United States in Madrid and in Washington.[30] He has become increasingly critical of the PLO. He has said that in the PLO's negotiations with the Israelis in Oslo,"the mistakes were horrifying. They made horrible mistakes in governing."[33] He has called the current PLO-led government in the West Bank "thieves, opportunists and collaborators."[34] (Khalidi’s denunciation of suicide bombing to go here, Mackan to insert.) In 2007, Jacob Lassner and S. Ilan Troen wrote that Khalidi's experience as an official in Beirut "exposed him to the corruption and highhandedness of the political leadership, which he acknowledged in public forums--an act of no small courage."
Historicist ( talk) 16:28, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
"nature or existence" perhaps? Also, maybe we should get a version WITH the citations (and a reflist section) in a collapsable box so we have a markup of text and sources before we put it into the article? -- Avi ( talk) 16:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
{{
collapse top}}
===Heading===
Text with citations
===References===
{{
reflist}}
{{
collapse bottom}}
--
Avi (
talk)
18:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Okay. Here is the text with some of the proposed citations. I moved to the agreed "nature or existence" phrasing.
User:Mackan, [[User:Wikidemon], I assume that you have the proper citations for several sentences at your fingertips and can insert them easily. On the last sentence of the first paragraph. I put three references. There are probably about a hundred available. I believe that we should try to keep the number down.
Historicist (
talk)
20:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Expand for suggested text and references.
|
---|
Suggested text
References
|
I've wikified the boxes and grouped these refs as "suggestion" so as not to have "reflist" pull the stuff above. when moving it into the article, we'll obviously remove the group name. -- Avi ( talk) 20:46, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Also, I'll fill out the appropriate cite templates once we have a working text. -- Avi ( talk) 20:47, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Take your time. We've been working on this paragraph at high intensity for weeks, and it has been an issue on and off for many months now. A few more days to finally have an acceptable consensus version is perfectly fine :) -- Avi ( talk) 23:41, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I would like to hear where the above proposal was intended to go, but looking again at the article, it seems to me that a simpler option may be something like the following, placed between the second and third paragraphs of the
Family, Education and Career section:
Khalidi became politically active in Beirut, where he resided through the 1982 Lebanon War. "I was deeply involved in politics in Beirut the 1970's," he has said in an interview. Khalidi was cited in the media during this period, sometimes as an official with the Palestinian News Service, Wafa, or directly with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. After the issue was raised in the 2008 United States presidential election due to a reported friendship with the Democratic candidate Barack Obama, the nature of Khalidi's affiliations during this time remain unsettled. In 2007, Jacob Lassner and S. Ilan Troen wrote that Khalidi's experience as an official in Beirut "exposed him to the corruption and highhandedness of the political leadership, which he acknowledged in public forums--an act of no small courage."
The sentence about the 1991 Madrid conference could then be inserted into the next paragraph, while I'm not sure that the sentence about his time constraints would then be necessary. I'm not certain whether it is a problem that this leaves out the denial, but possibly this would be another option. Mackan79 ( talk) 06:55, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
April 10, 2008 http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obamamideast10apr10,0,7297945,print.story Khalidi's friend and frequent dinner companion, the young state Sen. Barack Obama. Speaking to the crowd, Obama reminisced about meals prepared by Khalidi's wife, Mona, and conversations that had challenged his thinking. the word friends is used several times. and the relationship is detailed at length. Historicist ( talk) 18:04, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
A few notes, although I don't mind continuing to work on the other proposal:
by Jennifer Senior New York Magazine January 10, 2005 http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/education/features/10868/ Historicist ( talk) 20:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm interested in any case to hear where the larger proposal is intended to go, although wherever that is, I think will clarify a number of continuing problems with the proposal. Mackan79 ( talk) 20:10, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Khalidi has participated in Palestinian politics at different stages of his career. "I was deeply involved in politics in Beirut" in the 1970's, he said in an interview.[CITE] Khalidi was cited in the media during this period, sometimes as an official with the Palestinian News Service, Wafa, or directly with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. [CITE] Responding to depiction as an official PLO spokesman, Khalidi stated that he "…often spoke to journalists in Beirut, who usually cited me without attribution as a well-informed Palestinian source."[CITE] If some misidentified me at the time, I am not aware of it."[Wash Times IIRC] Subsequent sources disagree on the nature of Khalidi's official relationship with the organization.[CITE]
From 1991 to 1993 Khalidi was a member of the Palestinian delegation to negotiations between Palestinians, Israel and the United States in Madrid and in Washington.[30] He has become increasingly critical of the PLO. He has said that in the PLO's negotiations with the Israelis in Oslo,"the mistakes were horrifying. They made horrible mistakes in governing."[33] He has called the current PLO-led government in the West Bank "thieves, opportunists and collaborators."[34] (Khalidi’s denunciation of suicide bombing to go here, Mackan to insert.) In 2007, Jacob Lassner and S. Ilan Troen wrote that Khalidi's experience as an official in Beirut "exposed him to the corruption and highhandedness of the political leadership, which he acknowledged in public forums--an act of no small courage."
Historicist ( talk) 18:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
I am, as I ever have been, willing to add this material to the bio as a consensus that it well-sourced, not a violation of BPL, or NPOV, and, that it therefore belongs in the article. I am also happy to have it as a subsection of Public Life. Historicist ( talk) 20:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
With all of the discussion we are having, it would be nice if we could get a free-use photo of him for the article. -- Avi ( talk) 17:28, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
The material added by ChildofMidnight is unacceptable for several reasons.
The first paragraph: "Rashid Khalidi was noted by media for working as a spokesman for the PLO in Lebanon between 1976 and 1982 as well as heading Palestinian press agency Wafa.[25][26][27] However, The Washington Times reported in 2004 that Khalidi was denying that he ever worked for the PLO.[28]" Khalidi was not noted by these media for working as a spokesman. He was quoted in these media, under different appellations. To assemble three of these citations and make this kind of statement is original research ( WP:SYNTH), contentious, and unacceptable in a BLP. Second but equally importantly, the Washington Times does not show him denying that he "ever worked for the PLO." The statement is only as to being a "spokesman," and it is a highly partisan source (the article's title: "Arafat Minion as Professor").
The second paragraph: "In his book Palestinian Identity, Khalidi writes of being asked by Faisal al-Husayni, a leader of the PLO, to serve as an advisor if Palestinian-Israeli negotiations were begun.[29] Khalidi agreed to serve at the Madrid Conference of 1991. He was required to travel to the various meeting points - Madrid, Oslo, Jerusalem and Washington D.C. - for weeks at a time over a two year period. Khalidi worked alongside other notable advisors including Faisal al-Husayni. [30]" First, the statement that al-Husayni is a leader of the PLO is not found in the source; including this statement is again a contentious use of original synthesis. Khalidi is widely reported to have served at the Madrid conference; no reliable source that I am aware of states that he served the PLO or connects this to the PLO. This paragraph has no place in a discussion of "Relations with PLO," if such a discussion should exist.
The last paragraph: "Khalidi wrote: "The Palestinian-Israeli negotiations at Madrid, Washington D.C., and Oslo, starting in 1991, appeared to put the process toward statehood back on track, and seemed to justify the highest hopes of, and for, the PLO." [31]" This is pure original synthesis, again to suggest that he was serving the PLO in Madrid, when in fact the statement has nothing to do with Khalidi's service at the conference.
Good faith or not, this material is completely unacceptable. I will remove it so that we can return to discussion about something that could work. Mackan79 ( talk) 02:57, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm very surprised to see you assert that I haven't discussed the sourced material on the talk page. As you know I've repeatedly suggested altering the content to address any issues you are raising. Wholesale deletion of sourced content is grossly inappropriate. There are many sources in the section I added and they are reliable, scuh as the LA Times. The LA Times says he was a spokeperson, so it's well sourced and if you have another source that condradicts that, please add it. I object to your removing an entire section rather than correcting or clarifying it. Please put the material back with any corrections needed instead of removing all of it. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 05:33, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Whether fixing material is simple or not fixes need to be attempted. It's not right to just remove a whole section of content and keep out any and all controversies no matter how notable. Where is the accurate version of this information that you are proposing? It's been two months now. ChildofMidnight ( talk) 13:48, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
The fact that Khalidi worked for the PLO in Beirut before 1983 is well established by reliable, secondary sources. The news articles that mention Rashid Khalidi in his Beirut period between 1976 and 1984 are collected here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rashid_Khalidi/Archive_6#The_Evidence While it is true that some of these articles quote him without describing him as a PLO spokesman, it is equally true that some articles quote him without describing him as a professor. What they do say, however, is that he worked for the PLO. While one article describes him as "close to Al Fatah" and another as "a Palestinian with good access to the PLO leadership," the great majority of these articles, in major news sources including the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times describe him in a straightforward fashion as a “spokesman” “spokesperson” “official” “a director of the (PLO) press agency” or as an academic who “works for the PLO.” In these interviews, Khalidi sometimes describes PLO positions and activities using the pronoun “we” For example, in 1981, he was quoted by the Christian Science Monitor explaining the relationship between the PLO headquarters in Beirut and the Palestinians in Israel.: “we have built up tremendous links with the Palestinians 'on the inside' in different ways. We can render them services, often through our compatriots in the West, that King Hussein, for example, could never match. We've never been stronger there…” Multiple very reliable sources prove that Khalidi worked for the PLO in Beirut. This is a significant part of the man’s career. And an important fact to include in an article about a man whose entire career, after all, has been devoted to writing about Arab nationalism, whose most significant book is a history of Palestinian nationalism, and who is a leading spokesman in English for the Palestinian national cause. Historicist ( talk) 22:23, 20 December 2008 (UTC)
Khalidi became politically active in Beirut, where he resided through the 1982 Lebanon War. "I was deeply involved in politics in Beirut" in the 1970's, he said in an interview. [source 1] Khalidi was cited in the media during this period, sometimes as an official with the Palestinian News Service, Wafa, or directly with the Palestinian Liberation Organization. [source 2] However, Khalidi has denied that he was a PLO spokesman, [source 3] stating that he "…often spoke to journalists in Beirut, who usually cited me without attribution as a well-informed Palestinian source. If some misidentified me at the time, I am not aware of it." [source 4] Subsequent sources disagree on the nature or existence of Khalidi's official relationship with the organization. [source 5] In 2007, Jacob Lassner and S. Ilan Troen wrote that Khalidi's experience as an official in Beirut "exposed him to the corruption and highhandedness of the political leadership, which he acknowledged in public forums--an act of no small courage." [source 6]
Comment+query: in general, this version seems ok though I think the sentense about "Subsequent sources disagree" should be clarifid a bit further. It currently reads (to me) a bit like it's more supportive of the 'is not' version and I believe it should actually lean a bit towards the '[soucres say] he is' considering the reliable sources I've encountered personally (e.g. Ehud Yeari). Still, seems like an oversall reasonable version. What were the general objections with this version? Jaakobou Chalk Talk 23:17, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
It seems that everyone recently involved has said in one way or another that they can accept the current proposed version we have been editing of late as the way this article deals with Khalidi's reported relationship with the PLO. See the "Suggested text (under construction)" heading. Can we confirm this and, if so, ask that it be implemented under article probation? I am taking the liberty of adding a note about each person's apparent approval, in italics so it's clear this is just my summary. Feel free to replace this with your actual statement about the matter. Wikidemon ( talk) 01:10, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
(Can someone else propose this? Thx) - Wikidemon ( talk) 01:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Personally, I think that the article needs restructuring, but at the moment I see two possible places for the paragraph:
Under the current structure, I think "Views on Israeli-Palestinian conflict" is more appropriate, but I would prefer to see career spun off from "Family and education" and the entire "Public life" section merged into a "Career/Views" section. -- Avi ( talk) 16:24, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
I come back after a near agreement on the following as a consensus edit and find massive edit wars and a locked article. Someone, please clue me in on what happened? -- Avi ( talk) 00:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
User:ChildofMidnight put up a version of the material using not the version we were wroking on but a blunt version that, while sourced, was not couched in language Wikidemon liked. User:Wikidemon locked the page, and started flinging nasty and inaccurate accusations here: WP:AN/I#Article ownership. I suspect that Wikidemon's acton, locking the page and writing this WP:AN/I#Article ownership instead of inviting Child of Midnight to come back to the talk page, or just putting up the consensus language, is evidence of Wikidemon's determination to block this material from ever going on the page. Historicist ( talk) 00:27, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
Unacceptable use of citation needed tags [33]
In Resurrecting Empire: Western Footprints and America's Perilous Path in the Middle East (2004), Khalidi takes readers on a historical tour of Western intervention in the Middle East, and argues that these interventions continue to have a colonialist nature that is both morally unacceptable and likely to backfire.[citation needed]
Suitable citation is:- Rashid Khalidi (2005) Resurrecting Empire: Western Footprints and America's Perilous Path in the Middle East Beacon Press, ISBN 0807002356 p v introduction. the book itself in the introduction states what is encapsulated by the article. Whoever placed the citation needed tag may wish to re-read WP:CIVIL before, what appears to be, unnecessary flyby tagging... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
University of California Journal of Palestine Studies current editorial staff. citation for first citation needed tag on Academic work that took 0.22 seconds to find on google.... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:34, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
second citation needed is a spurious tag as the information is contained within the article. Look in the Bibliography
The second tag should therefore be removed as it is disruptive.... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:38, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Third tag in accademic work:-
"There is of course, a great mass of custom-tailored information in books, newspapers and magazine articles. Unfortunately, most of these fall into the categories of pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian propaganda or disinformation ... The exceptions, however deserve the highest praise; whatever their stance or political orientation, their concern was primarily with information and understanding ... The other exception is the Journal of Palestine Studies, published and edited by Hisham Sharabi since 1971, a quarterly magazine that is critically pro-PLO, but invaluable in its documentation of the PLO position. Unfortunately, no comparable journal exists yet in Israel."
- David Kimche, former Director-General of the Israeli Foreign Ministry, writing of sources "on our relations with the Palestinians" <refKimche, David (1991). The Last Option: After Nasser, Arafat & Saddam Hussein: The Quest for Peace in the Middle East. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. pp. 322–323. ISBN 0-684-19422-8./ref>
quote taken directly from Journal of Palestine Studies article... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
citation for first citation needed tag Public life Layola University of Chicago Dr. Rashid Khalidi is President of the American Committee on Jerusalem, and editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies. He was an advisor to the Palestinian delegation to the Madrid and Washington Arab-Israeli peace negotiations from October 1991 until June 1993.... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 11:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
Citation needed number one in the article. And as to "has Khalidi taught at Columbia" even the extremist organisation Campus watch do not challenge Khalidi's academic credentials....
Ismail Khalidi was actually a Saudi citizen, educated in American schools in Lebanon and in the U.S. — including at Columbia, his son Rashid's current pulpit, where the elder Khalidi got his doctorate in 1955.
Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 13:24, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
The article has been undergoing intense discussions for weeks and weeks now, Ashley. We are very close to a consensus, so some extra patience is called for. Once the article is unlocked, we can address other issues. -- Avi ( talk) 13:41, 23 December 2008 (UTC)