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Anyone know why cutting weapons fell out of favor with the Euros? I was always taught that thrusting puts you off balance but there are advantages to using the point. Is there a general consensus that it us so advantageous that slashing would logically be removed altogether from swordplay? Or was it part of just a useless stylistic trend like many of the other designs of the era? Jarwulf 08:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Hope this helps
David Latapie (
✒ |
@)
11:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
29 April 2006 Deleted following: "The rapier was a light and effective weapon on the battlefield when it (or its varients) were used. Due to its light wieght and very sharp edge it was good at sliding under plate mail and thruogh kinks in heavy armor, thin variations like the epee or escot could cut clean through chain mail when well placed. For most of its period of use, the rapier was double-edged, but some later rapiers were single-edged (with a sharply triangular blade) or edgeless. A rapier is capable of both cutting and thrusting attacks, but the thrust is the main attack in all rapier fighting styles." Ventifax 04:23, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
10:13 21 November 2005 Moved rapier instructors to its own page. Added a separate category for rapier instructors to pull it out of the body of the main article. (My opinion is that the main article should refer specifically to the topic of the rapier. Instructors may be a useful piece of information but I see it as secondary.)
NOTE 15:32 18 November 2005 Arzach 2 - Is there a reason you moved Maestro Andrea Lupo Sinclair and Ramon Martinez in a list that is alphabetical?
I personally question why it is necessary to make a list of instructors under the rapier heading, but I'm not going to be the one to remove the entire list. Perhaps a separate article is in order?
NOTE 18:54 18 October 2012 i think thrusting is better because its like the rapier is an extension of your arm though it can get stuck Edited last April 10 2003, Ken Mondschein, editor@corporatemofo.com -The previous version was a little small, and a little off in its facts and implications. I made a page on European dueling swords a little more thoroughly (though I lost the references section, I'll have to recreate it).
-In this process we lost a minor reference to the estoc, which properly belongs as an inspiration for the rapier.
The
European dueling swords page is commendable, but gives little detail as how to recognize a rapier from quite a long way away. Maby the swords should be given their own articles, as the mode of operation and construction varied quite considerably through time, and instead have a
European dueling page covering th social and historical aspects of this use of the weapons? --Anders Törlind
-Thank you. I would dearly love to get photographs or perhaps diagrams showing cross-sections, etc., though once you starting discussing variations you can go for a huge distance. The early rapier is just a thinner broadsword; then it starts getting longer and develops its own specialized contruction techniques and becomes the standard rapier, at least a meter long. And then it shrinks again as it transitions to the smallsword. And of course all along there were numerous schools of fencing with similar or widely variant ideas; many of these schools are known only by name.
-I do think the previous Rapier entry had grown redundant.
--Also, the evolution of the dueling swords, which forms a separate path from the evolution of military weapons and is a technical rather than a social field, deserves its own article.
the librarian
-I rewrote this page to be actually factual and ended up reconstituting it as European dueling sword. Someone enamored of their own prose and unable to distinguish fact from fancy restored it, and I see that 213.114.131.107 just modified it to be internally inconsistent. Since I'm not going to get involved in a childish editing war, I will merely list a few glaring problems:
I have read several Italian and German fenching manuals from the 16th and 17th century and examined the drawings in countless more. While there is a definite perference for the thrust in most of them, at no time was the cut ever discounted as a viable tactic. Furthermore, it would be nonsensical to think that someone fearing for his life would give himself such an obvious disadvantage as to not use a blunted weapon.
I am not familiar with the estoc, but I find it highly unlikily that it is the inspiration for the rapier. It certainly wasn't used by the Bolognese school of fencing and is wholely incompatible with the techniques taught by Achille Marozzo or Capo Ferro.
As for being ineffectual at slashing, I find that claim to be downright laughable. As I said above, all of the fencing manuals that I've seen from the 16th and 17th century taught the use of the cut. While I seriously doubt one would be hacking off many limbs, that isn't exactly necessary either. Much like a modern kitchen knife, the later masters taught that the effectiveness of the cut comes more from drawing the blade than it does from the initial impact. Grauenwolf ( talk) 02:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Come now, Librarian! No need to get overly defensive: If an article contains errors, by all means go ahead and correct them! Removing information, however, has long been a no-no on the wikipedia, and as I still saw a use for an article about a rapier (being a rather famous sword type in and of itself) I simply reinstated the article, hoping that you would perhaps correct it. Oh, well. --Anders Törlind
Just two notes about some statements above:
Rapier has definitively a two edged sharp blade. But it has not to be confused with the earlier Spada da Lato (Sidesword) in use before it, more cutting oriented therefore with a broader sharp blade.
This statement is not accurate. Rapier was in use until the end of the XIX century in Italy, in many different shapes but still fulfilling the basic criteria of what is a rapier. -- Arzach 2
No, it wasn't. The court-sword, smallsword, epee, and even duelling sabers were used in the 1800's, but not anything I, nor academia, would classify as a rapier. Sethwoodworth 18:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
omg people like it matters, any info i get that gets me a good grade on my project is all i and every other teen cares about. history aint completly acurate sometimes, deal with it! you people are freakin out over a stupid sword that no one realy cares about. did you know theres a whole word outside your house? go explore it! and stop being nerds in history. here do me a favor, get off this site now, open a news paper and find out about the more important problems the rest of the world has, jesus you people are so sad its pathetic. grow up and get a life! -Soccerboi-16
This page is for the discussion of the subject at hand -Soccerboi-16. Many of us want greater accuracy than what an average HIGH SCHOOL teacher would demand. Wikipedia should be held up to the same standards as other Encyclopedias, not to the standards of some teenage brat. I'm surprised you even visited this page, since this is a discussion page for a "stupid sword" nobody cares about. If you are uninterested in this particular area then that is fine with me, however, there is no need to go out of your way to tell other people they should be uninterested in this area. Contrary to your beliefs, many of us do have "lives" and are quite aware of current events (probably far more so then you). It seems someone who randomly goes into the middle of academic discussion pages (about fairly obscure topics too) and preaches about how the participants have "no lives" and should "grow up" doesn't have many (possibly any) other productive things to do with their time. Honestly, stop being so immature. -Anonymous-
Might I suggest we move Darkwood armory to the top of the commetial links list? They are usualy the de-facto rapier and sidesword manufacturer for custom swords. Relik's is simply a reseller for an indian factory (one of many) and the last isn't wide spread beyond it's personal section of the sca rapier market. Darkwood also has a wider selection than the other two. What is the standard here? Is there a wiki policy already on the concept?
This article gives information on the length and breadth of a rapier, but how much does an average rapier weigh? Marksman45 07:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My understanding... no more than 3 pounds. 1 Kilo seems about right. Dave ( talk) 07:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to adjust the beginning dates for rapiers, which are a bit off. The first use of the term rapier was in 1474. The spanish refered to it earlier as espada ropera, around 1469. The Italians claim that they invented rapiers even earlier, however the Italians called it only spada, "sword," so verifing their claim is a little harder. 1450 - 1460 for the Italians.
I'll add some references, but a quick Google search for "rapier 1474" has a lot of relavent hits, so this might effectivly be "common knowledge" and left uncited. The earlier dates I'll try to track down. --- Markspace 23:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Obviously, they are the same word from different languages. Just to note, the french word "rapière" has no meaning in french other than rapier because it comes from the spanish "ropera". The same thing happens with the word rapier in english. But in spanish ropera means "of clothes" or "dressing" and has a clear meaning. So from an etimological point of view it is clear. Yes, espada ropera has also the meaning of a sharp older sword (often the words have more than one meaning), it sometimes happens because there is always an older term when importing words, but the rapier is a espada ropera however you want to look at it unless you are blind. I am not saying that the rapier was first made in Spain, I dont know that, I am just saying that the swords are obviously the same and that the term is spanish in origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.48.239 ( talk) 21:08, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
I modified the links to reflect the authors who wrote the articles rather than what web sites hosting the articles. These articles were written by men, not by the web site that host the articles!
I came to this page whilst tying to find information on the UK Rapier surface to air missile ( Rapier_missile). Maybe some sort of "could also refer to" is needed?
Brainz42 08:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Although this might be more for the Capo Ferro page here on wikipedia, the most credible spellings that i can find and know all agree on the Capo Ferro spelling.
Scans of Capo Ferro's original text I see no reason to dispute how he spelled his own name.
The Capo Ferro Translation Project
The recently published Italian Rapier Combat: Ridolfo Capo Ferro
While Capoferro may be a modern translation of his name, it would be more correct and returns the most correct results on google, to use Capo Ferro in the beginning of the article as it is used in the rest of the article and in the reference materials also linked to in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vectorb ( talk • contribs) 18:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
He spelled his own name as one word, as is apparent from Latinizations of his name, and references by other masters of the time. It wouldn't be more correct to spell it as two words, doing that just perpetuates an error made years ago by part of the English-speaking (and more importantly, Italian-ignorant) WMA community. Don't quote the title of a poor modern translation: Italian Rapier Combat: Ridolfo Capo Ferro Clearly the translator of that book had only the crudest of Italian skills--his translations are clunky at best and often times plain wrong. Yet, you'll take that over Jacopo Gelli's spelling? That is Gelli, who was a fencing historian and bibliographer who also happened to be a native Italian speaker? Do you read Italian well enough to make that judgement? Others who do side with Gelli. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marozzo ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
User 68.237.193.195 please stop saying that there are unbroken rapier traditions. Although there have been a number of claims, not a single living person has ever produces a clear line back to one of the rapier masters. Ranp 14:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone is still editing the article to say that there is unbroken lines to rapier masters. This person neither states who has such an unbroken line nor do they state their name. If someone makes the claim of an unbroken line then please cite who they are and supporting documentation. If there is nothing to cite then please do not edit the article. Ranp 16:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I relocated the image of the rapier from the first section to the opening, for better formatting. I hope nobody minds -- DFRussia 04:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
On the history page of this article the User 68.237.193.195 stated that "...an internet editorial by John Clements is not citable evidence. This looks to be free advertising for ARMA." I want to point out that this article currently has two other references to Internet articles. Plus, there is even a reference to a class hand-out by Tom Leoni. Citing the article by John Clements is cleary within the standards used throughout this article.
User 68.237.193.195, you appear to have a personal issue with both John Clements and ARMA. That's OK. However, it is not ok to delete a section of an article just because you don't like the message or the messager. By the way, who are you? Ranp 19:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Maestro d'armi Sean Hayes recently stated that: "...claims of living tradition in "historical" weapons require that the burden of proof be on the claimant. When someone claims to have been taught a complete survival of an historical weapon, that's an extraordinary claim, and it requires extraordinary proof" (
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=84299). In other words, saying that there are no unbroken rapier traditions does not require proof, rather it is the claim of an unbroken rapier tradition that requires clear proof. Therefore, I have removed the [citation needed] tag from the line "unlike some eastern martial arts, there are no unbroken traditions reaching back to the time when these arts were put into martial practice".
Ranp
23:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Given that the user Oglach98 (another nameless person) has not made a single contribution to Wikipedia I find it completely ridiculous for him/her to suggest that this article be deleted. If I was to take a wild guess I would say that this is related to the "unbroken tradition" issue. In any case, I am removing the Nominated for Deletion tag. A Nominated for Deletion tag should only be added by someone with real authority on Wikipedia or someone who has at least made significant contributions to Wikipedia. Ranp 17:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This article was subject to an AfD debate. The result was speedy keep. J Milburn 19:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The user Dingleberry1117 deleted very valid and important inforamtion from the article without explaining his actions. That information has been re-inserted. Given that Dingleberry1117 has not edited a single other article in Wikipedia it appears that his actions were nothing but another simple case of vandalism in which any reference to or by John Clements or ARMA are deleted without reason. Ranp ( talk) 16:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the statement "However in the Historical Fencing community his view is widely criticized for lack of historical evidence" that was inserted by the user Dingleberry1117 for two reasons. First, where two views on rapier classification (ie, the view of Tom Leoni and the view of John Clements) are presented in breif statements it makes no sense to insert an undocumented rebuttal statement. Second, the statement was actually inserted to appear that John Clements was say the statement about his own work. Again, given that the user Dingleberry1117 has made no other contributions to Wikipedia his/her actions can only be view as an attempt to take a cheap shot at discrediting John Clements rather than as a valid attempt to improve the article. If the user Dingleberry1117 is truely interested in improving the article then let him/her start by stating clearly who they are. Ranp ( talk) 16:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Another round of vandalism by the user Dingleberry1117. Ranp ( talk) 18:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
And another round of vandalism by the user Dingleberry1117 Ranp ( talk) 14:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I've removed some critique of the description from the Description section. I thought the comments were valid, but the way to fix the problem is to fix the problem with appropriate re-writes-- not to throw in some criticism mid-section. Beastiepaws ( talk) 05:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Pappenheimer links to this article, that is not good because the pappenheimer hilt is of minor importance in this article, while other articles exist like: the Pappenheimer family, general Pappenheimer (from the 30 years war). It needs a disambiguation page, but I do not know how to make one so I'm signalling it here, maybe someone can take care of it? 194.78.102.186 ( talk) 15:01, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that "rapier" was misspelled as "raper" in most instances in this article. This looked like obvious vandalism to me. (Ha ha, raper, very funny... not.) Just to be thorough, I checked with Google to see if "rapier" is ever commonly spelled "raper" and didn't find any evidence. Also, the edit seems to have been made by an anonymous person who left no comment or explanation for the edit. So I reverted "raper" back to "rapier". I didn't change the word "raper" in a block of Latin text; I think that is correct.
Changing "rapier" to "raper" seems like the sort of vandalism that may be repeated. Watch out for it in future. Steveha ( talk) 07:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I removed L'Abbat from the list of rapier schools, as he's normally regarded as a smallsword master. 87.210.0.196 ( talk) 21:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I think we should merge Spada da lato here, as the Spada da Iato and Espada ropera are just early rapiers. Tinynanorobots ( talk) 02:37, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
This article claims "It is important to remember that the word "rapier" is a German word to describe what was considered to be a foreign weapon", citing the work of Joachim Meyer. It should be noted that many regard Meyer's "rappier", to be a very different weapon to the rapier.-- ZarlanTheGreen ( talk) 17:28, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
I purchased a cup rapier from the estate of a collector. Unfortunently all his wife new about the one I got was that he brought it back from Europe probably 50 years ago. The only marking I can find on it is at the base of the hilt just under the cup engraved into the sword is the forearm of a man holding up a christian gothic style cross in its fist. Is anyone familiar with this makers mark?
thx Cooper552012 11-8-12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooper552012 ( talk • contribs) 02:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
This is blatantly false. Conventional metal armour persisted until the 19th century, as it was more than adequate against firearms until the advent of the conical bullet and even then was sufficient against small arms. During the renaissance it did get substantially lighter due to a change in tactics, and more often than not armour was reduced to just a helmet and cuirass, but it still persisted. The complete lack of truth behind this combined with the lack of citation makes me suspect this was just snuck in by somebody with no knowledge in the matter who wanted to insert their bullet-worshipping nonsense into an article that couldn't possibly justify it. 50.123.104.96 ( talk) 08:58, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
This may be a good source to draw from for the expansion of the "Off Hand Weapons" section: http://moondragon.info/wiki/Basic_Rapier_Fighting_Styles 12.109.196.138 ( talk) 13:30, 16 April 2014 (UTC)spudman2
"WikiProject Cutlery, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of knives, swords, and blades"; this would seem relevant to this article as it is to other articles on types of sword.-- Johnsoniensis ( talk) 15:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
For those that haven't checked the above mentioned discussion in the projects page: The issue has been resolved, with the project changing its name to "Blades", rather than "Cutlery".-- ZarlanTheGreen ( talk) 17:38, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Here's the part of the text which I'm concerned about;
First of all there's a consensus in the world of Historical European Martial Arts that lighter blades are not automatically faster. The cited source: http://www.historynet.com/weaponry-the-rapier.htm is based on an article written in 1996 and unfortunately features some outdated beliefs about arms & armor. We read lines like "The knightly harness was now a liability, and with its demise followed the decline of weapons designed to combat it–the mace, the war hammer and swords whose efficacy depended as much on percussion as on edge." - which is basically nothing more than repeating the myth Medieval swords were blunt and heavy for breaking through armor and crushing bones. Nothing of it is even remotely accurate. Also lines like "Since armor was no longer a consideration, and the rapier's design allowed for a much wider range of movement, the new competition became one of vying philosophies of defense, or, as the term evolved, 'fence.'" - reveal an outdated point of view, ignorant of Late Medieval/Renaissance fencing manuals & treatises and mobility of original 14-16th century plate armor armor as well. -- Gladifer ( talk) 19:56, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
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This article needs to reference Bronze Age rapiers. Any mention of them is entirely omitted.
https://finds.org.uk/guides/bronzeage/objects/rapiers-and-dirks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.185.183.141 ( talk) 03:00, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone actually use the term "espada ropera" in English? I've never seen it used outside of discussions of the origin of the name, and I teach rapier fencing professionally. The Jade Knight ( talk) 03:35, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Sword signed Madrid Hallmark looks like boar & 150 and tests for silver. Also personalized. 64.138.210.101 ( talk) 20:47, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
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Anyone know why cutting weapons fell out of favor with the Euros? I was always taught that thrusting puts you off balance but there are advantages to using the point. Is there a general consensus that it us so advantageous that slashing would logically be removed altogether from swordplay? Or was it part of just a useless stylistic trend like many of the other designs of the era? Jarwulf 08:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
Hope this helps
David Latapie (
✒ |
@)
11:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
29 April 2006 Deleted following: "The rapier was a light and effective weapon on the battlefield when it (or its varients) were used. Due to its light wieght and very sharp edge it was good at sliding under plate mail and thruogh kinks in heavy armor, thin variations like the epee or escot could cut clean through chain mail when well placed. For most of its period of use, the rapier was double-edged, but some later rapiers were single-edged (with a sharply triangular blade) or edgeless. A rapier is capable of both cutting and thrusting attacks, but the thrust is the main attack in all rapier fighting styles." Ventifax 04:23, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
10:13 21 November 2005 Moved rapier instructors to its own page. Added a separate category for rapier instructors to pull it out of the body of the main article. (My opinion is that the main article should refer specifically to the topic of the rapier. Instructors may be a useful piece of information but I see it as secondary.)
NOTE 15:32 18 November 2005 Arzach 2 - Is there a reason you moved Maestro Andrea Lupo Sinclair and Ramon Martinez in a list that is alphabetical?
I personally question why it is necessary to make a list of instructors under the rapier heading, but I'm not going to be the one to remove the entire list. Perhaps a separate article is in order?
NOTE 18:54 18 October 2012 i think thrusting is better because its like the rapier is an extension of your arm though it can get stuck Edited last April 10 2003, Ken Mondschein, editor@corporatemofo.com -The previous version was a little small, and a little off in its facts and implications. I made a page on European dueling swords a little more thoroughly (though I lost the references section, I'll have to recreate it).
-In this process we lost a minor reference to the estoc, which properly belongs as an inspiration for the rapier.
The
European dueling swords page is commendable, but gives little detail as how to recognize a rapier from quite a long way away. Maby the swords should be given their own articles, as the mode of operation and construction varied quite considerably through time, and instead have a
European dueling page covering th social and historical aspects of this use of the weapons? --Anders Törlind
-Thank you. I would dearly love to get photographs or perhaps diagrams showing cross-sections, etc., though once you starting discussing variations you can go for a huge distance. The early rapier is just a thinner broadsword; then it starts getting longer and develops its own specialized contruction techniques and becomes the standard rapier, at least a meter long. And then it shrinks again as it transitions to the smallsword. And of course all along there were numerous schools of fencing with similar or widely variant ideas; many of these schools are known only by name.
-I do think the previous Rapier entry had grown redundant.
--Also, the evolution of the dueling swords, which forms a separate path from the evolution of military weapons and is a technical rather than a social field, deserves its own article.
the librarian
-I rewrote this page to be actually factual and ended up reconstituting it as European dueling sword. Someone enamored of their own prose and unable to distinguish fact from fancy restored it, and I see that 213.114.131.107 just modified it to be internally inconsistent. Since I'm not going to get involved in a childish editing war, I will merely list a few glaring problems:
I have read several Italian and German fenching manuals from the 16th and 17th century and examined the drawings in countless more. While there is a definite perference for the thrust in most of them, at no time was the cut ever discounted as a viable tactic. Furthermore, it would be nonsensical to think that someone fearing for his life would give himself such an obvious disadvantage as to not use a blunted weapon.
I am not familiar with the estoc, but I find it highly unlikily that it is the inspiration for the rapier. It certainly wasn't used by the Bolognese school of fencing and is wholely incompatible with the techniques taught by Achille Marozzo or Capo Ferro.
As for being ineffectual at slashing, I find that claim to be downright laughable. As I said above, all of the fencing manuals that I've seen from the 16th and 17th century taught the use of the cut. While I seriously doubt one would be hacking off many limbs, that isn't exactly necessary either. Much like a modern kitchen knife, the later masters taught that the effectiveness of the cut comes more from drawing the blade than it does from the initial impact. Grauenwolf ( talk) 02:20, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Come now, Librarian! No need to get overly defensive: If an article contains errors, by all means go ahead and correct them! Removing information, however, has long been a no-no on the wikipedia, and as I still saw a use for an article about a rapier (being a rather famous sword type in and of itself) I simply reinstated the article, hoping that you would perhaps correct it. Oh, well. --Anders Törlind
Just two notes about some statements above:
Rapier has definitively a two edged sharp blade. But it has not to be confused with the earlier Spada da Lato (Sidesword) in use before it, more cutting oriented therefore with a broader sharp blade.
This statement is not accurate. Rapier was in use until the end of the XIX century in Italy, in many different shapes but still fulfilling the basic criteria of what is a rapier. -- Arzach 2
No, it wasn't. The court-sword, smallsword, epee, and even duelling sabers were used in the 1800's, but not anything I, nor academia, would classify as a rapier. Sethwoodworth 18:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
omg people like it matters, any info i get that gets me a good grade on my project is all i and every other teen cares about. history aint completly acurate sometimes, deal with it! you people are freakin out over a stupid sword that no one realy cares about. did you know theres a whole word outside your house? go explore it! and stop being nerds in history. here do me a favor, get off this site now, open a news paper and find out about the more important problems the rest of the world has, jesus you people are so sad its pathetic. grow up and get a life! -Soccerboi-16
This page is for the discussion of the subject at hand -Soccerboi-16. Many of us want greater accuracy than what an average HIGH SCHOOL teacher would demand. Wikipedia should be held up to the same standards as other Encyclopedias, not to the standards of some teenage brat. I'm surprised you even visited this page, since this is a discussion page for a "stupid sword" nobody cares about. If you are uninterested in this particular area then that is fine with me, however, there is no need to go out of your way to tell other people they should be uninterested in this area. Contrary to your beliefs, many of us do have "lives" and are quite aware of current events (probably far more so then you). It seems someone who randomly goes into the middle of academic discussion pages (about fairly obscure topics too) and preaches about how the participants have "no lives" and should "grow up" doesn't have many (possibly any) other productive things to do with their time. Honestly, stop being so immature. -Anonymous-
Might I suggest we move Darkwood armory to the top of the commetial links list? They are usualy the de-facto rapier and sidesword manufacturer for custom swords. Relik's is simply a reseller for an indian factory (one of many) and the last isn't wide spread beyond it's personal section of the sca rapier market. Darkwood also has a wider selection than the other two. What is the standard here? Is there a wiki policy already on the concept?
This article gives information on the length and breadth of a rapier, but how much does an average rapier weigh? Marksman45 07:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
My understanding... no more than 3 pounds. 1 Kilo seems about right. Dave ( talk) 07:02, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to adjust the beginning dates for rapiers, which are a bit off. The first use of the term rapier was in 1474. The spanish refered to it earlier as espada ropera, around 1469. The Italians claim that they invented rapiers even earlier, however the Italians called it only spada, "sword," so verifing their claim is a little harder. 1450 - 1460 for the Italians.
I'll add some references, but a quick Google search for "rapier 1474" has a lot of relavent hits, so this might effectivly be "common knowledge" and left uncited. The earlier dates I'll try to track down. --- Markspace 23:06, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Obviously, they are the same word from different languages. Just to note, the french word "rapière" has no meaning in french other than rapier because it comes from the spanish "ropera". The same thing happens with the word rapier in english. But in spanish ropera means "of clothes" or "dressing" and has a clear meaning. So from an etimological point of view it is clear. Yes, espada ropera has also the meaning of a sharp older sword (often the words have more than one meaning), it sometimes happens because there is always an older term when importing words, but the rapier is a espada ropera however you want to look at it unless you are blind. I am not saying that the rapier was first made in Spain, I dont know that, I am just saying that the swords are obviously the same and that the term is spanish in origin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.49.48.239 ( talk) 21:08, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
I modified the links to reflect the authors who wrote the articles rather than what web sites hosting the articles. These articles were written by men, not by the web site that host the articles!
I came to this page whilst tying to find information on the UK Rapier surface to air missile ( Rapier_missile). Maybe some sort of "could also refer to" is needed?
Brainz42 08:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Although this might be more for the Capo Ferro page here on wikipedia, the most credible spellings that i can find and know all agree on the Capo Ferro spelling.
Scans of Capo Ferro's original text I see no reason to dispute how he spelled his own name.
The Capo Ferro Translation Project
The recently published Italian Rapier Combat: Ridolfo Capo Ferro
While Capoferro may be a modern translation of his name, it would be more correct and returns the most correct results on google, to use Capo Ferro in the beginning of the article as it is used in the rest of the article and in the reference materials also linked to in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vectorb ( talk • contribs) 18:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
He spelled his own name as one word, as is apparent from Latinizations of his name, and references by other masters of the time. It wouldn't be more correct to spell it as two words, doing that just perpetuates an error made years ago by part of the English-speaking (and more importantly, Italian-ignorant) WMA community. Don't quote the title of a poor modern translation: Italian Rapier Combat: Ridolfo Capo Ferro Clearly the translator of that book had only the crudest of Italian skills--his translations are clunky at best and often times plain wrong. Yet, you'll take that over Jacopo Gelli's spelling? That is Gelli, who was a fencing historian and bibliographer who also happened to be a native Italian speaker? Do you read Italian well enough to make that judgement? Others who do side with Gelli. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marozzo ( talk • contribs) 20:21, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
User 68.237.193.195 please stop saying that there are unbroken rapier traditions. Although there have been a number of claims, not a single living person has ever produces a clear line back to one of the rapier masters. Ranp 14:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone is still editing the article to say that there is unbroken lines to rapier masters. This person neither states who has such an unbroken line nor do they state their name. If someone makes the claim of an unbroken line then please cite who they are and supporting documentation. If there is nothing to cite then please do not edit the article. Ranp 16:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I relocated the image of the rapier from the first section to the opening, for better formatting. I hope nobody minds -- DFRussia 04:06, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
On the history page of this article the User 68.237.193.195 stated that "...an internet editorial by John Clements is not citable evidence. This looks to be free advertising for ARMA." I want to point out that this article currently has two other references to Internet articles. Plus, there is even a reference to a class hand-out by Tom Leoni. Citing the article by John Clements is cleary within the standards used throughout this article.
User 68.237.193.195, you appear to have a personal issue with both John Clements and ARMA. That's OK. However, it is not ok to delete a section of an article just because you don't like the message or the messager. By the way, who are you? Ranp 19:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Maestro d'armi Sean Hayes recently stated that: "...claims of living tradition in "historical" weapons require that the burden of proof be on the claimant. When someone claims to have been taught a complete survival of an historical weapon, that's an extraordinary claim, and it requires extraordinary proof" (
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=84299). In other words, saying that there are no unbroken rapier traditions does not require proof, rather it is the claim of an unbroken rapier tradition that requires clear proof. Therefore, I have removed the [citation needed] tag from the line "unlike some eastern martial arts, there are no unbroken traditions reaching back to the time when these arts were put into martial practice".
Ranp
23:35, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Given that the user Oglach98 (another nameless person) has not made a single contribution to Wikipedia I find it completely ridiculous for him/her to suggest that this article be deleted. If I was to take a wild guess I would say that this is related to the "unbroken tradition" issue. In any case, I am removing the Nominated for Deletion tag. A Nominated for Deletion tag should only be added by someone with real authority on Wikipedia or someone who has at least made significant contributions to Wikipedia. Ranp 17:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
This article was subject to an AfD debate. The result was speedy keep. J Milburn 19:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The user Dingleberry1117 deleted very valid and important inforamtion from the article without explaining his actions. That information has been re-inserted. Given that Dingleberry1117 has not edited a single other article in Wikipedia it appears that his actions were nothing but another simple case of vandalism in which any reference to or by John Clements or ARMA are deleted without reason. Ranp ( talk) 16:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed the statement "However in the Historical Fencing community his view is widely criticized for lack of historical evidence" that was inserted by the user Dingleberry1117 for two reasons. First, where two views on rapier classification (ie, the view of Tom Leoni and the view of John Clements) are presented in breif statements it makes no sense to insert an undocumented rebuttal statement. Second, the statement was actually inserted to appear that John Clements was say the statement about his own work. Again, given that the user Dingleberry1117 has made no other contributions to Wikipedia his/her actions can only be view as an attempt to take a cheap shot at discrediting John Clements rather than as a valid attempt to improve the article. If the user Dingleberry1117 is truely interested in improving the article then let him/her start by stating clearly who they are. Ranp ( talk) 16:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Another round of vandalism by the user Dingleberry1117. Ranp ( talk) 18:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
And another round of vandalism by the user Dingleberry1117 Ranp ( talk) 14:13, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I've removed some critique of the description from the Description section. I thought the comments were valid, but the way to fix the problem is to fix the problem with appropriate re-writes-- not to throw in some criticism mid-section. Beastiepaws ( talk) 05:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Pappenheimer links to this article, that is not good because the pappenheimer hilt is of minor importance in this article, while other articles exist like: the Pappenheimer family, general Pappenheimer (from the 30 years war). It needs a disambiguation page, but I do not know how to make one so I'm signalling it here, maybe someone can take care of it? 194.78.102.186 ( talk) 15:01, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I noticed that "rapier" was misspelled as "raper" in most instances in this article. This looked like obvious vandalism to me. (Ha ha, raper, very funny... not.) Just to be thorough, I checked with Google to see if "rapier" is ever commonly spelled "raper" and didn't find any evidence. Also, the edit seems to have been made by an anonymous person who left no comment or explanation for the edit. So I reverted "raper" back to "rapier". I didn't change the word "raper" in a block of Latin text; I think that is correct.
Changing "rapier" to "raper" seems like the sort of vandalism that may be repeated. Watch out for it in future. Steveha ( talk) 07:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I removed L'Abbat from the list of rapier schools, as he's normally regarded as a smallsword master. 87.210.0.196 ( talk) 21:00, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
I think we should merge Spada da lato here, as the Spada da Iato and Espada ropera are just early rapiers. Tinynanorobots ( talk) 02:37, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
This article claims "It is important to remember that the word "rapier" is a German word to describe what was considered to be a foreign weapon", citing the work of Joachim Meyer. It should be noted that many regard Meyer's "rappier", to be a very different weapon to the rapier.-- ZarlanTheGreen ( talk) 17:28, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
I purchased a cup rapier from the estate of a collector. Unfortunently all his wife new about the one I got was that he brought it back from Europe probably 50 years ago. The only marking I can find on it is at the base of the hilt just under the cup engraved into the sword is the forearm of a man holding up a christian gothic style cross in its fist. Is anyone familiar with this makers mark?
thx Cooper552012 11-8-12 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cooper552012 ( talk • contribs) 02:59, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
This is blatantly false. Conventional metal armour persisted until the 19th century, as it was more than adequate against firearms until the advent of the conical bullet and even then was sufficient against small arms. During the renaissance it did get substantially lighter due to a change in tactics, and more often than not armour was reduced to just a helmet and cuirass, but it still persisted. The complete lack of truth behind this combined with the lack of citation makes me suspect this was just snuck in by somebody with no knowledge in the matter who wanted to insert their bullet-worshipping nonsense into an article that couldn't possibly justify it. 50.123.104.96 ( talk) 08:58, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
This may be a good source to draw from for the expansion of the "Off Hand Weapons" section: http://moondragon.info/wiki/Basic_Rapier_Fighting_Styles 12.109.196.138 ( talk) 13:30, 16 April 2014 (UTC)spudman2
"WikiProject Cutlery, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of knives, swords, and blades"; this would seem relevant to this article as it is to other articles on types of sword.-- Johnsoniensis ( talk) 15:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
For those that haven't checked the above mentioned discussion in the projects page: The issue has been resolved, with the project changing its name to "Blades", rather than "Cutlery".-- ZarlanTheGreen ( talk) 17:38, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Here's the part of the text which I'm concerned about;
First of all there's a consensus in the world of Historical European Martial Arts that lighter blades are not automatically faster. The cited source: http://www.historynet.com/weaponry-the-rapier.htm is based on an article written in 1996 and unfortunately features some outdated beliefs about arms & armor. We read lines like "The knightly harness was now a liability, and with its demise followed the decline of weapons designed to combat it–the mace, the war hammer and swords whose efficacy depended as much on percussion as on edge." - which is basically nothing more than repeating the myth Medieval swords were blunt and heavy for breaking through armor and crushing bones. Nothing of it is even remotely accurate. Also lines like "Since armor was no longer a consideration, and the rapier's design allowed for a much wider range of movement, the new competition became one of vying philosophies of defense, or, as the term evolved, 'fence.'" - reveal an outdated point of view, ignorant of Late Medieval/Renaissance fencing manuals & treatises and mobility of original 14-16th century plate armor armor as well. -- Gladifer ( talk) 19:56, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
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This article needs to reference Bronze Age rapiers. Any mention of them is entirely omitted.
https://finds.org.uk/guides/bronzeage/objects/rapiers-and-dirks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.185.183.141 ( talk) 03:00, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone actually use the term "espada ropera" in English? I've never seen it used outside of discussions of the origin of the name, and I teach rapier fencing professionally. The Jade Knight ( talk) 03:35, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Sword signed Madrid Hallmark looks like boar & 150 and tests for silver. Also personalized. 64.138.210.101 ( talk) 20:47, 21 April 2023 (UTC)