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I'm just deleting stuff for now, but if someone can come along and work on this constructively, I'll be happy to help. I don't know too much about this aspect of the war, but I can recognise unsourced propaganda when I see it.-- Киро ( talk) 19:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
One source (a newspaper article) is not available. Other source is just a simplified list, presumeably worksheet for students. It's blatently wrong in a few things - claims 150,000 victims of the war, but research accept by all sides shows 100,000. If it's wide of the mark 50% on this, no reason to take it seriously for anything else. Also claims Yugoslavia was part of A-H and: "Serbs (the good guys back then) fought with Allies (See movie Underground). Tito led Serb communist resistance in mountains." A schoolchild in Yugo cannot take this seriously. (Like saying Ireland is part of UK and America fought Nazis alone, so obviously wrong it is.) Just not credible.-- Киро ( talk) 20:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Cleared the low hanging errors. Will work more on the article later.-- Киро ( talk) 20:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The first sentence of the lead says, "[d]uring the Bosnian War, many women of both sides were raped." The rest of the lead, and indeed the article, proceeds to only talk about the Serbs' raping of Bosniaks... Shouldn't both sides be covered? — Ed (Talk • Contribs) 03:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
(out) - Emir, I get what you mean now. However, you have reverted my copyediting twice now; could I politely ask you to stop? I know that you are reverting to remove the {{
POV}} tag, but you shouldn't do that anyway until this is resolved.
Also, perhaps (to avoid creating multiple articles on what are virtually the same subject) the name of this article should be "Rape in the Bosnian War" and its scope be directed towards all of the rapes that ocurred. —
Ed
(Talk •
Contribs)
00:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I've boldly redirected this to the main Bosnian War, which contains all the necessary info. This article was an unnecessary POV fork. Please consult with me before reverting. Thank you. – Juliancolton | Talk 04:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I think you made a mistake. As you can see above, there is discussion going on, not finished yet. I've seen no argument for your action, it's just your personal feeling. If we used your logic, there is a hundred articles related to Bosnian War that could be just like that boldly redirected to the main Bosnian War. The same thing for Croatian war, Kosovo war, Israeli-Palestinian conflict etc. Emir Arven ( talk) 19:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
It is not possible to list all the individuals that committed crimes. Thus, "Serb" is used, and whenever possible, distinctions such as "Serb authorities". Ottava Rima has made clear on the Articles for Deletion page, on this mainspace, that he find the article 'racist' because it names a race rather than individuals.
How, then, do we explain the following deletions of individuals names? They were convicted by the ICT; their arrests, convictions, and sentences are a matter of public record. And their listing aids in distinguishing the fact that not all Serbs are guilty of these crimes. Ottava's deletions:
Ottava, your 'contributions' to this page are conflicted at best. Requiring that the article not name Serbs as a people when it takes a mass of people to commit mass crimes is unwise. Removing mentions of individuals after berating others for not mentioning individuals is questionable. Requiring of other editors that they discuss changes while you yourself are not part of the discussion, although it is all too common, is most irregular. I suggest you take a little time off to reflect on what exactly it is you want from this page, and why. Anarchangel ( talk) 00:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Reads the current article:
"Before the Bosnian war started Bosniaks in Eastern Bosnia had already begun to be removed from their employment; be ostracised and their freedom to move was curtailed. At the outset of the war Serb forces began to target the Bosniak civilian population. Once towns and villages were secured the military, the police, the paramilitaries and, sometimes, even Serb villagers continued these attacks. Bosniak houses and apartments were systematically ransacked or burnt down while civilians were rounded up, sometimes being beaten or killed in the process. They separated men and women and detained many of the men in local camps." The text cites this, FYI.
The source reads:
"Before the armed conflict had started, Muslim civilians were removed from their social and professional lives, their salaries remained unpaid or they were told that their services were no longer needed. Most Muslim men were disarmed. Complete ostracism soon followed with their freedom to move about and to gather critically curtailed." (and then a paragraph later:) "Once towns and villages were securely in their hands, the Serb forces - the military, the police, the paramilitaries and, sometimes, even Serb villagers – applied the same pattern: Muslim houses and apartments were systematically ransacked or burnt down, Muslim villagers were rounded up or captured, and sometimes beaten or killed in the process. Men and women were separated, with many of the men detained in the former KP Dom prison."
Well, that's pretty much taking from the text with some unimaginative playing with words. Excusing the grammar errors in the Wikipedia text, could someone explain to me why Bosniaks = Muslims? We understand that most Bosniaks are Muslim, but it just seems idiotic (for lack of a better word) to refer to Bosniaks in general. Of course, if Bosniaks in general suffered in the way the source describes, then there would be no issue, but that's not what the source says ... am I just being too picky? Also, would there be any objection to me basically cutting down on this and cutting out some of the detail?
Also, in the same section - "Background" - the article reads "During the early investigations by the United Nations, in 1992, it became apparent that systematic rape was not random and had the support of commanders and local authorities." Well, the Bosnian War started in 1992, so how is that part of the background?
Me being a picky sort of a person and also someone who is unfamiliar - okay, clueless when it comes to the Bosnian War, I'd really appreciate someone's feedback and advice. Icy // ♫ 00:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
"During the Bosnian War, mass rape and sexual enslavement were conducted by the Bosnian Serb armed forces against Bosniaks (commonly referred to as 'Bosnian Muslims'),[1][2] a rape camp system was used as an instrument of terror.[2] Many women were raped on all sides, but the largest number of reported victims were Bosniaks.[3] Serb forces conducted a sexual abuse strategy on thousands of Bosniak girls and women."
The new text would read, "During the Bosnian War, multiple and systematic rape and sexual enslavement were conducted by not only members but also leaders of the Bosnian Serb armed forces against Bosniaks (commonly referred to as 'Bosnian Muslims'),[1][2] a rape camp system was used as an instrument of terror.[2] Women on all sides of the conflict were raped, but the largest number of reported victims were Bosniaks.[3]" Note, once again, the deletion of the last of the three sentences, replaced by the word 'systematic' in the first.
At the very least I would like to reword it to: "Women on all sides of the conflict were raped, but the largest number of reported victims were Bosniaks.[3]" Anarchangel ( talk) 06:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Let us just get this completely straight up front. This article will never be neutral in the sense that it will give equal coverage to rapes on all sides, unless some amazing as yet uncovered evidence emerges. However, that said it does need some coverage of rapes by other sides. The openning section should be changed away from the current bias, which I will do shortly. I have already removed an entire section that was still tagged as not neutral. I will rewrite the header so at least the article does not start off not neutral. If anyone wishes to contribute by adding material to the article to make it more balanced then that would be good. It would not be constructive if contributions are to delete large amounts of well sourced material in the hope of getting rid of the artilce. I am not in favour of changing the name of the article. Anyone who wants to change the name of this article should jointly argue this with changing the name of the section in the Bosnian War article. I can produce so many highly reliable references that say there was mass rape I think a name change is unnecessary. If you wish to change the title to sexual enslavement then as far as I am aware only Serb forces were convicted of this so the article only stands to become less neutral. This is not an article on the UN court cases, it is not a legal article. Yes it covers this as a major part but it is not restricted to this. The arguments on the title seem to have been along the lines of, that is not the specific crime. That is nonsense this is not an article on specific individual crimes. Let us call it what it is and what CNN, BBC, US Senate, ICTY President etc. have all called it. Please be constructive. Polargeo ( talk) 06:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I have completely neutralized the lead section. I will put much of this back into the article but the lead section just needed a fresh start so the article can in no way be accused of starting off with a NPOV bias. Polargeo ( talk) 06:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I am proposing an article move to 'Rape in the Bosnian War'. This is an inclusive title that should be able to meet all needs of this article and be a clean break from the previous POV. It can include mass rape, sexual enslavement and all other aspects. I will give this a couple of days but as I was the only person who objected to a change of title I hope this will meet with agreement from all. Polargeo ( talk) 16:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I'm just deleting stuff for now, but if someone can come along and work on this constructively, I'll be happy to help. I don't know too much about this aspect of the war, but I can recognise unsourced propaganda when I see it.-- Киро ( talk) 19:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
One source (a newspaper article) is not available. Other source is just a simplified list, presumeably worksheet for students. It's blatently wrong in a few things - claims 150,000 victims of the war, but research accept by all sides shows 100,000. If it's wide of the mark 50% on this, no reason to take it seriously for anything else. Also claims Yugoslavia was part of A-H and: "Serbs (the good guys back then) fought with Allies (See movie Underground). Tito led Serb communist resistance in mountains." A schoolchild in Yugo cannot take this seriously. (Like saying Ireland is part of UK and America fought Nazis alone, so obviously wrong it is.) Just not credible.-- Киро ( talk) 20:09, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Cleared the low hanging errors. Will work more on the article later.-- Киро ( talk) 20:40, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
The first sentence of the lead says, "[d]uring the Bosnian War, many women of both sides were raped." The rest of the lead, and indeed the article, proceeds to only talk about the Serbs' raping of Bosniaks... Shouldn't both sides be covered? — Ed (Talk • Contribs) 03:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
(out) - Emir, I get what you mean now. However, you have reverted my copyediting twice now; could I politely ask you to stop? I know that you are reverting to remove the {{
POV}} tag, but you shouldn't do that anyway until this is resolved.
Also, perhaps (to avoid creating multiple articles on what are virtually the same subject) the name of this article should be "Rape in the Bosnian War" and its scope be directed towards all of the rapes that ocurred. —
Ed
(Talk •
Contribs)
00:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
I've boldly redirected this to the main Bosnian War, which contains all the necessary info. This article was an unnecessary POV fork. Please consult with me before reverting. Thank you. – Juliancolton | Talk 04:50, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
I think you made a mistake. As you can see above, there is discussion going on, not finished yet. I've seen no argument for your action, it's just your personal feeling. If we used your logic, there is a hundred articles related to Bosnian War that could be just like that boldly redirected to the main Bosnian War. The same thing for Croatian war, Kosovo war, Israeli-Palestinian conflict etc. Emir Arven ( talk) 19:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
It is not possible to list all the individuals that committed crimes. Thus, "Serb" is used, and whenever possible, distinctions such as "Serb authorities". Ottava Rima has made clear on the Articles for Deletion page, on this mainspace, that he find the article 'racist' because it names a race rather than individuals.
How, then, do we explain the following deletions of individuals names? They were convicted by the ICT; their arrests, convictions, and sentences are a matter of public record. And their listing aids in distinguishing the fact that not all Serbs are guilty of these crimes. Ottava's deletions:
Ottava, your 'contributions' to this page are conflicted at best. Requiring that the article not name Serbs as a people when it takes a mass of people to commit mass crimes is unwise. Removing mentions of individuals after berating others for not mentioning individuals is questionable. Requiring of other editors that they discuss changes while you yourself are not part of the discussion, although it is all too common, is most irregular. I suggest you take a little time off to reflect on what exactly it is you want from this page, and why. Anarchangel ( talk) 00:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Reads the current article:
"Before the Bosnian war started Bosniaks in Eastern Bosnia had already begun to be removed from their employment; be ostracised and their freedom to move was curtailed. At the outset of the war Serb forces began to target the Bosniak civilian population. Once towns and villages were secured the military, the police, the paramilitaries and, sometimes, even Serb villagers continued these attacks. Bosniak houses and apartments were systematically ransacked or burnt down while civilians were rounded up, sometimes being beaten or killed in the process. They separated men and women and detained many of the men in local camps." The text cites this, FYI.
The source reads:
"Before the armed conflict had started, Muslim civilians were removed from their social and professional lives, their salaries remained unpaid or they were told that their services were no longer needed. Most Muslim men were disarmed. Complete ostracism soon followed with their freedom to move about and to gather critically curtailed." (and then a paragraph later:) "Once towns and villages were securely in their hands, the Serb forces - the military, the police, the paramilitaries and, sometimes, even Serb villagers – applied the same pattern: Muslim houses and apartments were systematically ransacked or burnt down, Muslim villagers were rounded up or captured, and sometimes beaten or killed in the process. Men and women were separated, with many of the men detained in the former KP Dom prison."
Well, that's pretty much taking from the text with some unimaginative playing with words. Excusing the grammar errors in the Wikipedia text, could someone explain to me why Bosniaks = Muslims? We understand that most Bosniaks are Muslim, but it just seems idiotic (for lack of a better word) to refer to Bosniaks in general. Of course, if Bosniaks in general suffered in the way the source describes, then there would be no issue, but that's not what the source says ... am I just being too picky? Also, would there be any objection to me basically cutting down on this and cutting out some of the detail?
Also, in the same section - "Background" - the article reads "During the early investigations by the United Nations, in 1992, it became apparent that systematic rape was not random and had the support of commanders and local authorities." Well, the Bosnian War started in 1992, so how is that part of the background?
Me being a picky sort of a person and also someone who is unfamiliar - okay, clueless when it comes to the Bosnian War, I'd really appreciate someone's feedback and advice. Icy // ♫ 00:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
"During the Bosnian War, mass rape and sexual enslavement were conducted by the Bosnian Serb armed forces against Bosniaks (commonly referred to as 'Bosnian Muslims'),[1][2] a rape camp system was used as an instrument of terror.[2] Many women were raped on all sides, but the largest number of reported victims were Bosniaks.[3] Serb forces conducted a sexual abuse strategy on thousands of Bosniak girls and women."
The new text would read, "During the Bosnian War, multiple and systematic rape and sexual enslavement were conducted by not only members but also leaders of the Bosnian Serb armed forces against Bosniaks (commonly referred to as 'Bosnian Muslims'),[1][2] a rape camp system was used as an instrument of terror.[2] Women on all sides of the conflict were raped, but the largest number of reported victims were Bosniaks.[3]" Note, once again, the deletion of the last of the three sentences, replaced by the word 'systematic' in the first.
At the very least I would like to reword it to: "Women on all sides of the conflict were raped, but the largest number of reported victims were Bosniaks.[3]" Anarchangel ( talk) 06:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Let us just get this completely straight up front. This article will never be neutral in the sense that it will give equal coverage to rapes on all sides, unless some amazing as yet uncovered evidence emerges. However, that said it does need some coverage of rapes by other sides. The openning section should be changed away from the current bias, which I will do shortly. I have already removed an entire section that was still tagged as not neutral. I will rewrite the header so at least the article does not start off not neutral. If anyone wishes to contribute by adding material to the article to make it more balanced then that would be good. It would not be constructive if contributions are to delete large amounts of well sourced material in the hope of getting rid of the artilce. I am not in favour of changing the name of the article. Anyone who wants to change the name of this article should jointly argue this with changing the name of the section in the Bosnian War article. I can produce so many highly reliable references that say there was mass rape I think a name change is unnecessary. If you wish to change the title to sexual enslavement then as far as I am aware only Serb forces were convicted of this so the article only stands to become less neutral. This is not an article on the UN court cases, it is not a legal article. Yes it covers this as a major part but it is not restricted to this. The arguments on the title seem to have been along the lines of, that is not the specific crime. That is nonsense this is not an article on specific individual crimes. Let us call it what it is and what CNN, BBC, US Senate, ICTY President etc. have all called it. Please be constructive. Polargeo ( talk) 06:05, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I have completely neutralized the lead section. I will put much of this back into the article but the lead section just needed a fresh start so the article can in no way be accused of starting off with a NPOV bias. Polargeo ( talk) 06:21, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
I am proposing an article move to 'Rape in the Bosnian War'. This is an inclusive title that should be able to meet all needs of this article and be a clean break from the previous POV. It can include mass rape, sexual enslavement and all other aspects. I will give this a couple of days but as I was the only person who objected to a change of title I hope this will meet with agreement from all. Polargeo ( talk) 16:47, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |