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This is currently a work in progress, trying to gather information on Ramtha.
I have been very sceptical, too. Ramtha's story is hard to believe but his school is not about his story, at all. And just judging about what you do not know is actually quite not fair - isn't it?! One things he asks us is to make known the unknown - so just give yourself a chance - he doesn't need one - and get a little more involved in his philosophy. Find out what is behind it b4 saying "new age crap", "money making and brain washing institution" which is definitely not true. well, maybe partly: every institution needs money and RAM sais himself he wants to brainwash us - but only if we do it ourselves. ok?! :P
I think there was some vandalism on this page with repeated mentions of bunny rabbits, most of which I deleted (except in Intro) Saro32 17:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I've split the organizational aspects from this article, as you suggested, so as to leave this one for the "entity" itself. - Tydaj 5 July 2005 21:14 (UTC)
Ramtha (or at least JK Knight channeling it) via the movie What the Bleep has been seen by more than a thousand people, therefore, is probably valid material for Wikipedia. Keep the article. I put links to two places where James Randi comments on Ramtha. Jrincayc 15:04, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
-- Dthogan 14:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC)I have no idea if JZ Knight is actually chanelling Ramtha or not, and that seems to be a highlight of controversy. Quite frankly I do not care as the actual "teachings" of Ramtha are not new except for some basic explanations of the quantum world. I found the same "teachings" in numerous other authors, transcripts, etc. The fact I choose to believe parts of the teachings neither makes me a skeptic or believer in "Ramtha" and the text in Ramtha books continually tell you that "truths" are only what you know and have actualy experience and Ramtha states therefore his teaching are philosophies.
My "indebtness" if you will, to Ramtha was the purchase price of 2 books that I enjoyed reading. I have no need to go take one of the "courses" but those that do I say "More power to them". People part with money in all kinds of ways to make them feel better. There are quite a few that part with it in religion.
If JZ Knight puts on a seminar at a hotel she has to pay for the hotel, or for whatever it takes to put it on. So do countless others that say what they believe in sessions that require money to attend. If you want to have a serious attack on Ramtha to back up your disbelief I would search out a library for FREE use of one of the books.-- Dthogan 14:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"There is no clear proof that J.Z. Knight is a Fraud. That is, proof that his/her followers will belive. There are lawsuits that stated that J.Z. Knight is the only one who can channel Ramtha, which is odd. Also, she copywrited Ramtha. 20/20 did a segment that showed proofs of how Ramtha's school is just taking peoples money." Is there any evidence hinting that JZ Knight isn't a fraud? I'd imagine that any logical person would realize that somebody selling "magic/curative" water is a fraud.
I saw the movie and despite being open minded do like to check my sources. This article has been valuable in that regard. With the number of poeple watching this movie worldwide and the apparent lack of intelligent disection available I think this article is right on the money.
You'll read above that some people believe there is no proof she is a fraud. A great hint would be the fact that she claims Ramtha is from Atlantis. Come on now. Atlantis was written about by Plato allegorically, not to be taken literally! Atlantis doesn't exist and it never did. It is the equivelent of especially desperate people 2,000 years from now believing there is a Lilliput, or Houyhnhnmland, or maybe it would be the lost island of Laputa.It is ridiculous. The fact is she claims she is channeling a person from a fictional place, therefore she is channeling a fictional entity. For Christ's sake has the world gone mad? Maprovonsha172 01:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm reverting this last edit. It's clearly POV. Maprovonsha172 23:32, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm removing the dispute-see talk page notice at the end of the first page of the article. There doesn't seem to be much dispute here. Maprovonsha172 22:38, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
-- Dthogan 14:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)LOL, are you chanelling Plato, since you know his intent?-- Dthogan 14:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Anyone who believes anything this woman says, needs to get their head examined. This is all such obvious nonsense! Cult Watch 07:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
What's even worse is that Ramtha is purported to come from the hyopthetical continent of Lemuria, which was abandoned when scientists becan to understand plate techtonics. Laughinginterror ( talk) 09:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Saying that the nonexistence of Atlantis is well established is besides the point. Most well educated people could make a similar argument about any story of the Bible, but i doubt that you would say that the nonexistence of Noah's Ark is well established, as it was an allegory, and therefore Noah didn't exist, in the Bible article.
First off, whoever you are, if you're going to dispute things here you ought to be a member (it's free, signing up is even simpler than signing up for free e-mail) and put ~ ~ ~ ~ after what you've writeen (without the spaces). That said, the difference between Altlantis and Noah's Ark is that Atlantis was 100% guarenteed written as an allegory, but many people believe that Noah's Ark wasn't. Even though I'm not one of them, many people take the Bible literally. But no credible scholar believes Atlantis exists, or ever existed. That's the differnece. Maprovonsha172 22:35, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I suppose that might be slightly misleading, as I myself am somewhat skeptical of Ramtha. My aunt, however, dose believe that Ramtha is real, and had in fact gone to many of Ms. Knight's "seminars", if you will. I appologise if I'm not entirelly clear on some points... As I said, I am only repeating what my aunt has told me.
Anywho, my aunt had started attending these seminars right around when they first began. Right from the beginning, she said that Ramtha (or rather, Ms. Knight chanalling Ramtha) told them all that he would not want people following him; attending every one of his seminars, and such. Apparently, he said that he would only be here for a short amount of time.
According to my aunt, once Ramtha left, it is possible that Knight was somewhat angered by the fact that a portian of her lifetime had been spent on these seminars. Feeling that she deserved some sort of reward for her wasted life, Knight continued to pretend that she was chanaling Ramtha in order to make some money out of it.
I wish I could elaborate more on why my aunt held faith in Ramtha, but my memory of our conversation over the matter has worn thin. Perhaps, if we ever happen to speak over the matter again, I'll add more to this. I suppose I should add that my father has also attentded a few of these seminars. Take my word for it when I say that my father holds no faith in these supposed "psychics" and "channalers". Often he ridicules them. However, whenever I mention Ramtha, my father grows somewhat uncomfortable and speaks little on the matter. Apparently this Ramtha had struck a few chords (as "he" had spoken to my father in person). Whatever Ramtha said, Father has never told me, but I find it unusual that it was cause so much discomfort in him... Howl 8:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The neutrality of this article was very poor. I have removed most of what I considered non-neutral statments and unreferenced statments. This left the article much more sparce and in need of expansion. Anyone? BobAlmighty 18:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Since my changes were reverted I will clearify exactly what should be changed and why.
It is notable to mention, however, that the non-existence of Atlantis is well established, and so Knight is claiming to channel a spirit from a fictional place.
This does not add anything to the article which is about Ramtha. In fact, if you read the wikipedia page about Atlantis it does not conform to that information. Non-existence is NOT well established. This adds nothing to the article and I removed it. In the second paragraph,
The organization founded by Knight based on the "teachings" of Ramtha is Ramtha's School of Enlightenment in Yelm, Washington in which she has made millions of dollars for her seminars.
This is redundant information. This page was split to specifically address the entity of Ramtha. There is a seperate page that deals with the school JZ Knight founded. I revised this to indicate that.
As for the rest of the paragraph,
The central theme of the Ramtha teachings appears to involve the internalization of deity (God is in Us, You are God, etc.). Ramtha is described as having brought his knowledge to many ancient civilizations in the world. The website suggests that many historical philosophers were influenced by Ramtha, although this is not easy to prove. It's quite ironic, then, that the myth of Atlantis comes from a misinterpretation of Plato's description of it; so it has been said that in fact it isn't philosophers that have been influenced by Ramtha but Knight's conception of Ramtha that has been influenced by philosophers.
I could not find anything on the website to back this up, nor could I in a simple google search. This is unsubstantiated, and although I agree with the theme, it does not have a factual background. I removed it due to this. If you disagree, please cite the sources.
The final sentence in the article is blatently POV.
In court and in newspapers, former students have accused JZ Knight of brainwashing and taking them for every penny they had.
When I went looking for information related to this, I did find court cases. I provided an example and a source. As it stood the previous version had no cited or factual information.
Because the nature of the material it is very important to back your information up and to be as non-pov as possible. If you make additions or changes please cite your reasons! BobAlmighty 20:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Will write some notes on the update, but out of time... 129.93.39.66 22:03, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
129.93.39.66 was actually me BobAlmighty my session musta timed out or something. Move the controversy about Ramtha's existence to the controversy section. Additionally, I made spelling corrections that I missed, and added a bit about the film envolving RSE and Ramtha. BobAlmighty 06:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to revert the first paragraph. Whoever keeps removing the Atlantis sentence can justify it below (as I've argued for it above without dispute): Maprovonsha172 21:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I think we should halt all edits before we can settle disputes here and reach consensus. BobAlmighty, if you're going to post here you should register as a member. You must also justify your edits here. Yes, this article needs work, but you're only making it worse. Maprovonsha172 21:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm fairly new to Wikipedia. I'm not sure what you mean by register. If you mean create a page about myself, then yes I suppose I should. But I am a memeber of Wikipedia in that I contribute to articles and login in to an account.
Reguarding the disputes, I did dispute the article and made a detailed post about it before I made any changes. From the 30th of September to the 8th of October I made significant changes and added talk discussion about those changes. All of the changes were reverted without so much as a comment. On the 4th of october you'll note in the previous section "Disputes and POV" I address that sentence specifically. I left the disscussion for 4 days and when nothing was added I went ahead with some changes, which was then reverted again. I'll repeat my dispute and expand my reasoning on why that sentence doens't belong. "It is notable to mention, however, that the non-existence of Atlantis is well established, and so Knight is claiming to channel a spirit from a fictional place." Disreguarding the structure of the sentence, the content is blatantly POV and irrelivant to the article.
Firstly, The question of the existance of Atlantis is not part of this article, this article is about Ramtha. While it is clear you think that Atlantis as described by Plato does not exist, (which I would agree with) reasonable doubt about the existance of Atlantis does exist. Using the argument that Atlantis does not exist to imply that Ramtha does not exist is flawed. Atlantis's non-existence cannot be taken as fact.
Secondly, the sentence implies a specific POV. That Ramtha does not exist. I agree that Ramtha likely does not exist, BUT that is NOT what this article is about. Claiming that you are removing POV by implying Ramtha's non-existence is just silly.
What would be relivant to the article is that debate about Ramtha's authenticity exists, not the existance or non-existance of Ramtha. Hence, I created the Controversy section of the article. This is where such an observation as the one you have made should be placed, although not as you have done. Your edit is an intrusion upon the netruality of the article, it is an editorialization that is coming from the writer and not and simple statement of facts or information. Reguardless of the POV of such a contribution I feel that it is only a detriment to any article. Such retohrical strategies are best left for essays and editorials. Not a Wikipedia article. BobAlmighty 19:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Ramtha does not claim to be scientific so I think the category pseudoscience is wrong. Please explain or I will remove it. By the way, I have the book by J. Gordon Melton at home so if I have time, I will write more. (I do agree with some of the criticisms of Melton's book and I deeply regret that he did not explain more in detail why he sees the controversy about Ramtha as exaggerated, except by making the usual negative generalizations about critical ex-members). Andries 21:03, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Have you ever seen the movie, Andries? They most certainly do claim their beliefs are scientific. Look at what they talk about. Peptides, atoms, electrons, the brain. They're clearly trying to sound scientific, if only to talk about science and their stupid beliefs at the same time.
This has to change:
This is biased in Knight's favor. However,... sounds authoritarian, and it's a defense of Knight. And, if Knight is to be believed, she never appears in the film. It's Ramtha, right? Instead, perhaps we should say, However, filmmakers claim... Maprovonsha172 23:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
'Ramtha' is an anagram of 'Martha', incidently. Martha means 'Mistress of the house' in Aramaic -more or less, and in the Bible she was the sister to the resurrected Lazarus. Ms. Knight has some interesting etymological constructs to go along with her legends. LEMURIA, her borrowed island and the subsequent stopway from Atlantis straight to JZ KNIGHT's being, is found in Latin-Rome, LEMURIA also known as: 'Feast of the Lemures' was a pagan exorcism holiday celebrated to get rid of the malevolent spirits that hung around your house, town, etc. Her use of Lemuria seems antithetical to her trying to get the spirits hanging around you, your personal god/s, to jump back into you and influence your decisions etc. -Jsulliv 16 Nov 2005
I would just like to add some info that seem obvious to me, that doesn't appear in this discussion, I am not into writing so I have no interest in editing the encyclopedia entry. The first point I'd like to make is that all new concepts are refferred to as cults in their conceptipon, as was christianity. The second is that science is at it's heart the search for the unknown as ramtha encourages. Science is a process of conceptualizing an idea and proving or disproving it, making modifications and trying again. As the wiki writers would say, Ramtha "Claims" to be a 35,000 year acended master, from that "claimed" perspective he can make claims about the nature of reality that are far ahead of the scientific community, that doesn't make him wrong. In fact over the last 18 years many of his concepts are just being discovered by the scientific community. Finally, It's not suprising that Ramtha's legacy has spread and grown beyond the 3000 students as the entry suggests and is now a worldwide phenomenon, it is because it works, if you want to see the latest scientifically published work that revolves around ground breaking phenomenon At Ramtha's school you have to look at this paper published by the American Institute of Physics, which has a rigorous system of peer review to verify scientific authenticity, and if AIP can see the scientific value of the information then I think over a short time, the world will too.
Personal Note: No where else in the world can I learn to do the things I have done at RSE, including learning about our ability to measurably augment our environment with our minds as discussed in the paper. From this students perspective, my scientific process is taking the information given and applying them, when it works for me it's all the proof I need, I just want more. I'll leave it to the slower process of scientific community to catch up and study the phenomenon in greater detail.
Common Sense: As with all the internet, you will always find unhappy people or agendas that flood the internet on any topic, especially hot ones. I hope eventually more emphisis will be on the Message of RSE as opposed to the banterings of peoples opinions for and against.
PS: if this is the wrong place to post an entry like this, don't bite my head off, this is my first time.
Isleprince 02:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Science is not the search for the unknown. It a the search to create models of explanations of the universe. As time goes on our aggregated knwoledge grows and can more eloquently describe what is. You post shows you are not part of this community and that you lack the logical tools to properly evaluate ideas. A simple test would be enough to disprove your "shaping reality" claims. Take a good random number generator and try to force it to be a specific number. Measure how many times your desire number comes up. IF it's not significantly more then chance would allow then your assertion is disproved. Take some statistics courses on identifyign how large a sampel size you need. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
161.184.114.156 (
talk •
contribs)
As I reserched this Ramtha movement, including reading the material and ordering the DVDs and CDs, I'm impressed by the lack of "cultish" information. Is there a 35,000 year old spirit inhabiting JZ Knight? I don't know, and I don't care. I did read that she has been tested by notable scientists (not members of the Ramtha School) and proved legitimate.
the definition of a cult is, "A system of religious worship". This defines many religious groups throughout the world. Ramtha doesn't insist on being worshipped. In fact, the teachings inspire the individual to worship the god within. How wrong is that? To experience more of the teachings, they developed a system for those interested in these belief systems. Does not the richest and most powerful church in the world deman more than that? They demand 12 years of school costing families thousands upon thousands of dollars. They demand money for just about every decision a person makes to insure they will not be damned for all time. And yet, you question a small school that teaches its students that God loves you beyond your wildest dreams. That God loves you even if you don't contribute 10% of your income to the church that you attend. I see no evidence of a cult in the Ramtha teachings. —This unsigned comment was added by 216.49.214.3 ( talk • contribs) 15:49, 6 April 2006.
Hello, everyone; Olivebranch here. I would just like to say a word about the content of this article: hogwash. The first descriptor is there because there is an entire section devoted to 'controversy', which to me is another example of cardstacking propaganda. The unencyclopedic descriptor is there because I think that we need to explore Ramtha here. This is not an article about J.Z. Knight. If it was, her name would be on the top of the page. So, if we could get an expert on this subject it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if we could explore Ramtha's life a little more in-depth (ex: his early life, great accomplishments, how long and where he lived, etc.), since I am thirsty for the knowledge of how he LIVED, not just his afterlife (even though that's cool too :-)].
Actually, there was a 1 year study done on Ramtha and they had a conference about Ramtha in the scientific community. I think its called The Ramtha Phenomenon, and the end result was that they didnt who or what Ramtha was, but they knew that a "decidedly non-local phenomenon" was happening here. Skeptics on Ramtha should read this first, because Ramtha was already studied, and the answer is there. Also, I read a comment here about Random Event Generators and how if Ramtha's teachings were true, the numbers would come out the way you wanted them..... TOO LATE! A scientist named Dean Radin already did that experiment and he found out that intention DID cause the numbers to go different than what was expected... 50,000 to 1 difference. I dont know about you, but Ramtha said all this, and now we are coming to find out that maybe he knows what he is talking about ---- Just a boy.
In what the bleep do we know, J.Z. Knights makes some glaringly ignorant assertions on Zero point energy. perhaps mentioning it and how obviously wrong her assertions are might add to the artcile. intuitors critic might be a good source to start with http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/bleep.html. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.75.33.118 ( talk) 03:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
...how can one person hold copyright over them? Nobody has legal ownership of King Arthur. I would think that he would have that of himself. But now he's dead if he existed, so who cares?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.228.54.78 ( talk) 04:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC).
Hi.
as discussion is ongoing and improvements made, I replaced the multiple tags with one single one, fixed a link and add category/infoboxes to connect it to other topics in this area.
Whether the beliefs are bunk or not, I really don't care, but they look inline with the medium's claims. Would an informed individual make the time to add some specific references and quotes, preferably from academic sources?
<ref name="author">{{cite book | last = lastname | first = firstname | title = | year = | quote = | publisher = | isbn = }}</ref>
Thanks and good luck ... the spirit of Queen Guinevere (Rightful Heir to the Crown of England) aka -- Lucyintheskywithdada ( talk) 08:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have proposed that this page be merged with JZ Knight, as they seem to be covering the same subject; this article claims to be about Ramtha, but is really about JZ Knight (e.g. the Controversy section) and thus should be merged there. As far as I'm concerned, Ramtha is JZ Knight, and does not deserve a separate article: but even if you disagree, it's unarguable that Ramtha has been made famous by JZ Knight, and is only notable because of her. Having too separate pages seems unnecessary to me, and furthermore suggests that Ramtha is entirely separate from JZ Knight, which is quite clearly not the case. If you agree or disagree, please comment below. Terraxos ( talk) 03:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
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This is currently a work in progress, trying to gather information on Ramtha.
I have been very sceptical, too. Ramtha's story is hard to believe but his school is not about his story, at all. And just judging about what you do not know is actually quite not fair - isn't it?! One things he asks us is to make known the unknown - so just give yourself a chance - he doesn't need one - and get a little more involved in his philosophy. Find out what is behind it b4 saying "new age crap", "money making and brain washing institution" which is definitely not true. well, maybe partly: every institution needs money and RAM sais himself he wants to brainwash us - but only if we do it ourselves. ok?! :P
I think there was some vandalism on this page with repeated mentions of bunny rabbits, most of which I deleted (except in Intro) Saro32 17:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I've split the organizational aspects from this article, as you suggested, so as to leave this one for the "entity" itself. - Tydaj 5 July 2005 21:14 (UTC)
Ramtha (or at least JK Knight channeling it) via the movie What the Bleep has been seen by more than a thousand people, therefore, is probably valid material for Wikipedia. Keep the article. I put links to two places where James Randi comments on Ramtha. Jrincayc 15:04, 13 May 2005 (UTC)
-- Dthogan 14:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC)I have no idea if JZ Knight is actually chanelling Ramtha or not, and that seems to be a highlight of controversy. Quite frankly I do not care as the actual "teachings" of Ramtha are not new except for some basic explanations of the quantum world. I found the same "teachings" in numerous other authors, transcripts, etc. The fact I choose to believe parts of the teachings neither makes me a skeptic or believer in "Ramtha" and the text in Ramtha books continually tell you that "truths" are only what you know and have actualy experience and Ramtha states therefore his teaching are philosophies.
My "indebtness" if you will, to Ramtha was the purchase price of 2 books that I enjoyed reading. I have no need to go take one of the "courses" but those that do I say "More power to them". People part with money in all kinds of ways to make them feel better. There are quite a few that part with it in religion.
If JZ Knight puts on a seminar at a hotel she has to pay for the hotel, or for whatever it takes to put it on. So do countless others that say what they believe in sessions that require money to attend. If you want to have a serious attack on Ramtha to back up your disbelief I would search out a library for FREE use of one of the books.-- Dthogan 14:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
"There is no clear proof that J.Z. Knight is a Fraud. That is, proof that his/her followers will belive. There are lawsuits that stated that J.Z. Knight is the only one who can channel Ramtha, which is odd. Also, she copywrited Ramtha. 20/20 did a segment that showed proofs of how Ramtha's school is just taking peoples money." Is there any evidence hinting that JZ Knight isn't a fraud? I'd imagine that any logical person would realize that somebody selling "magic/curative" water is a fraud.
I saw the movie and despite being open minded do like to check my sources. This article has been valuable in that regard. With the number of poeple watching this movie worldwide and the apparent lack of intelligent disection available I think this article is right on the money.
You'll read above that some people believe there is no proof she is a fraud. A great hint would be the fact that she claims Ramtha is from Atlantis. Come on now. Atlantis was written about by Plato allegorically, not to be taken literally! Atlantis doesn't exist and it never did. It is the equivelent of especially desperate people 2,000 years from now believing there is a Lilliput, or Houyhnhnmland, or maybe it would be the lost island of Laputa.It is ridiculous. The fact is she claims she is channeling a person from a fictional place, therefore she is channeling a fictional entity. For Christ's sake has the world gone mad? Maprovonsha172 01:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm reverting this last edit. It's clearly POV. Maprovonsha172 23:32, 3 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm removing the dispute-see talk page notice at the end of the first page of the article. There doesn't seem to be much dispute here. Maprovonsha172 22:38, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
-- Dthogan 14:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)LOL, are you chanelling Plato, since you know his intent?-- Dthogan 14:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Anyone who believes anything this woman says, needs to get their head examined. This is all such obvious nonsense! Cult Watch 07:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
What's even worse is that Ramtha is purported to come from the hyopthetical continent of Lemuria, which was abandoned when scientists becan to understand plate techtonics. Laughinginterror ( talk) 09:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Saying that the nonexistence of Atlantis is well established is besides the point. Most well educated people could make a similar argument about any story of the Bible, but i doubt that you would say that the nonexistence of Noah's Ark is well established, as it was an allegory, and therefore Noah didn't exist, in the Bible article.
First off, whoever you are, if you're going to dispute things here you ought to be a member (it's free, signing up is even simpler than signing up for free e-mail) and put ~ ~ ~ ~ after what you've writeen (without the spaces). That said, the difference between Altlantis and Noah's Ark is that Atlantis was 100% guarenteed written as an allegory, but many people believe that Noah's Ark wasn't. Even though I'm not one of them, many people take the Bible literally. But no credible scholar believes Atlantis exists, or ever existed. That's the differnece. Maprovonsha172 22:35, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I suppose that might be slightly misleading, as I myself am somewhat skeptical of Ramtha. My aunt, however, dose believe that Ramtha is real, and had in fact gone to many of Ms. Knight's "seminars", if you will. I appologise if I'm not entirelly clear on some points... As I said, I am only repeating what my aunt has told me.
Anywho, my aunt had started attending these seminars right around when they first began. Right from the beginning, she said that Ramtha (or rather, Ms. Knight chanalling Ramtha) told them all that he would not want people following him; attending every one of his seminars, and such. Apparently, he said that he would only be here for a short amount of time.
According to my aunt, once Ramtha left, it is possible that Knight was somewhat angered by the fact that a portian of her lifetime had been spent on these seminars. Feeling that she deserved some sort of reward for her wasted life, Knight continued to pretend that she was chanaling Ramtha in order to make some money out of it.
I wish I could elaborate more on why my aunt held faith in Ramtha, but my memory of our conversation over the matter has worn thin. Perhaps, if we ever happen to speak over the matter again, I'll add more to this. I suppose I should add that my father has also attentded a few of these seminars. Take my word for it when I say that my father holds no faith in these supposed "psychics" and "channalers". Often he ridicules them. However, whenever I mention Ramtha, my father grows somewhat uncomfortable and speaks little on the matter. Apparently this Ramtha had struck a few chords (as "he" had spoken to my father in person). Whatever Ramtha said, Father has never told me, but I find it unusual that it was cause so much discomfort in him... Howl 8:39, 26 September 2005 (UTC)
The neutrality of this article was very poor. I have removed most of what I considered non-neutral statments and unreferenced statments. This left the article much more sparce and in need of expansion. Anyone? BobAlmighty 18:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Since my changes were reverted I will clearify exactly what should be changed and why.
It is notable to mention, however, that the non-existence of Atlantis is well established, and so Knight is claiming to channel a spirit from a fictional place.
This does not add anything to the article which is about Ramtha. In fact, if you read the wikipedia page about Atlantis it does not conform to that information. Non-existence is NOT well established. This adds nothing to the article and I removed it. In the second paragraph,
The organization founded by Knight based on the "teachings" of Ramtha is Ramtha's School of Enlightenment in Yelm, Washington in which she has made millions of dollars for her seminars.
This is redundant information. This page was split to specifically address the entity of Ramtha. There is a seperate page that deals with the school JZ Knight founded. I revised this to indicate that.
As for the rest of the paragraph,
The central theme of the Ramtha teachings appears to involve the internalization of deity (God is in Us, You are God, etc.). Ramtha is described as having brought his knowledge to many ancient civilizations in the world. The website suggests that many historical philosophers were influenced by Ramtha, although this is not easy to prove. It's quite ironic, then, that the myth of Atlantis comes from a misinterpretation of Plato's description of it; so it has been said that in fact it isn't philosophers that have been influenced by Ramtha but Knight's conception of Ramtha that has been influenced by philosophers.
I could not find anything on the website to back this up, nor could I in a simple google search. This is unsubstantiated, and although I agree with the theme, it does not have a factual background. I removed it due to this. If you disagree, please cite the sources.
The final sentence in the article is blatently POV.
In court and in newspapers, former students have accused JZ Knight of brainwashing and taking them for every penny they had.
When I went looking for information related to this, I did find court cases. I provided an example and a source. As it stood the previous version had no cited or factual information.
Because the nature of the material it is very important to back your information up and to be as non-pov as possible. If you make additions or changes please cite your reasons! BobAlmighty 20:41, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
Will write some notes on the update, but out of time... 129.93.39.66 22:03, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
129.93.39.66 was actually me BobAlmighty my session musta timed out or something. Move the controversy about Ramtha's existence to the controversy section. Additionally, I made spelling corrections that I missed, and added a bit about the film envolving RSE and Ramtha. BobAlmighty 06:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to revert the first paragraph. Whoever keeps removing the Atlantis sentence can justify it below (as I've argued for it above without dispute): Maprovonsha172 21:45, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I think we should halt all edits before we can settle disputes here and reach consensus. BobAlmighty, if you're going to post here you should register as a member. You must also justify your edits here. Yes, this article needs work, but you're only making it worse. Maprovonsha172 21:53, 11 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm fairly new to Wikipedia. I'm not sure what you mean by register. If you mean create a page about myself, then yes I suppose I should. But I am a memeber of Wikipedia in that I contribute to articles and login in to an account.
Reguarding the disputes, I did dispute the article and made a detailed post about it before I made any changes. From the 30th of September to the 8th of October I made significant changes and added talk discussion about those changes. All of the changes were reverted without so much as a comment. On the 4th of october you'll note in the previous section "Disputes and POV" I address that sentence specifically. I left the disscussion for 4 days and when nothing was added I went ahead with some changes, which was then reverted again. I'll repeat my dispute and expand my reasoning on why that sentence doens't belong. "It is notable to mention, however, that the non-existence of Atlantis is well established, and so Knight is claiming to channel a spirit from a fictional place." Disreguarding the structure of the sentence, the content is blatantly POV and irrelivant to the article.
Firstly, The question of the existance of Atlantis is not part of this article, this article is about Ramtha. While it is clear you think that Atlantis as described by Plato does not exist, (which I would agree with) reasonable doubt about the existance of Atlantis does exist. Using the argument that Atlantis does not exist to imply that Ramtha does not exist is flawed. Atlantis's non-existence cannot be taken as fact.
Secondly, the sentence implies a specific POV. That Ramtha does not exist. I agree that Ramtha likely does not exist, BUT that is NOT what this article is about. Claiming that you are removing POV by implying Ramtha's non-existence is just silly.
What would be relivant to the article is that debate about Ramtha's authenticity exists, not the existance or non-existance of Ramtha. Hence, I created the Controversy section of the article. This is where such an observation as the one you have made should be placed, although not as you have done. Your edit is an intrusion upon the netruality of the article, it is an editorialization that is coming from the writer and not and simple statement of facts or information. Reguardless of the POV of such a contribution I feel that it is only a detriment to any article. Such retohrical strategies are best left for essays and editorials. Not a Wikipedia article. BobAlmighty 19:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Ramtha does not claim to be scientific so I think the category pseudoscience is wrong. Please explain or I will remove it. By the way, I have the book by J. Gordon Melton at home so if I have time, I will write more. (I do agree with some of the criticisms of Melton's book and I deeply regret that he did not explain more in detail why he sees the controversy about Ramtha as exaggerated, except by making the usual negative generalizations about critical ex-members). Andries 21:03, 14 October 2005 (UTC)
Have you ever seen the movie, Andries? They most certainly do claim their beliefs are scientific. Look at what they talk about. Peptides, atoms, electrons, the brain. They're clearly trying to sound scientific, if only to talk about science and their stupid beliefs at the same time.
This has to change:
This is biased in Knight's favor. However,... sounds authoritarian, and it's a defense of Knight. And, if Knight is to be believed, she never appears in the film. It's Ramtha, right? Instead, perhaps we should say, However, filmmakers claim... Maprovonsha172 23:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
'Ramtha' is an anagram of 'Martha', incidently. Martha means 'Mistress of the house' in Aramaic -more or less, and in the Bible she was the sister to the resurrected Lazarus. Ms. Knight has some interesting etymological constructs to go along with her legends. LEMURIA, her borrowed island and the subsequent stopway from Atlantis straight to JZ KNIGHT's being, is found in Latin-Rome, LEMURIA also known as: 'Feast of the Lemures' was a pagan exorcism holiday celebrated to get rid of the malevolent spirits that hung around your house, town, etc. Her use of Lemuria seems antithetical to her trying to get the spirits hanging around you, your personal god/s, to jump back into you and influence your decisions etc. -Jsulliv 16 Nov 2005
I would just like to add some info that seem obvious to me, that doesn't appear in this discussion, I am not into writing so I have no interest in editing the encyclopedia entry. The first point I'd like to make is that all new concepts are refferred to as cults in their conceptipon, as was christianity. The second is that science is at it's heart the search for the unknown as ramtha encourages. Science is a process of conceptualizing an idea and proving or disproving it, making modifications and trying again. As the wiki writers would say, Ramtha "Claims" to be a 35,000 year acended master, from that "claimed" perspective he can make claims about the nature of reality that are far ahead of the scientific community, that doesn't make him wrong. In fact over the last 18 years many of his concepts are just being discovered by the scientific community. Finally, It's not suprising that Ramtha's legacy has spread and grown beyond the 3000 students as the entry suggests and is now a worldwide phenomenon, it is because it works, if you want to see the latest scientifically published work that revolves around ground breaking phenomenon At Ramtha's school you have to look at this paper published by the American Institute of Physics, which has a rigorous system of peer review to verify scientific authenticity, and if AIP can see the scientific value of the information then I think over a short time, the world will too.
Personal Note: No where else in the world can I learn to do the things I have done at RSE, including learning about our ability to measurably augment our environment with our minds as discussed in the paper. From this students perspective, my scientific process is taking the information given and applying them, when it works for me it's all the proof I need, I just want more. I'll leave it to the slower process of scientific community to catch up and study the phenomenon in greater detail.
Common Sense: As with all the internet, you will always find unhappy people or agendas that flood the internet on any topic, especially hot ones. I hope eventually more emphisis will be on the Message of RSE as opposed to the banterings of peoples opinions for and against.
PS: if this is the wrong place to post an entry like this, don't bite my head off, this is my first time.
Isleprince 02:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Science is not the search for the unknown. It a the search to create models of explanations of the universe. As time goes on our aggregated knwoledge grows and can more eloquently describe what is. You post shows you are not part of this community and that you lack the logical tools to properly evaluate ideas. A simple test would be enough to disprove your "shaping reality" claims. Take a good random number generator and try to force it to be a specific number. Measure how many times your desire number comes up. IF it's not significantly more then chance would allow then your assertion is disproved. Take some statistics courses on identifyign how large a sampel size you need. —Preceding
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161.184.114.156 (
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As I reserched this Ramtha movement, including reading the material and ordering the DVDs and CDs, I'm impressed by the lack of "cultish" information. Is there a 35,000 year old spirit inhabiting JZ Knight? I don't know, and I don't care. I did read that she has been tested by notable scientists (not members of the Ramtha School) and proved legitimate.
the definition of a cult is, "A system of religious worship". This defines many religious groups throughout the world. Ramtha doesn't insist on being worshipped. In fact, the teachings inspire the individual to worship the god within. How wrong is that? To experience more of the teachings, they developed a system for those interested in these belief systems. Does not the richest and most powerful church in the world deman more than that? They demand 12 years of school costing families thousands upon thousands of dollars. They demand money for just about every decision a person makes to insure they will not be damned for all time. And yet, you question a small school that teaches its students that God loves you beyond your wildest dreams. That God loves you even if you don't contribute 10% of your income to the church that you attend. I see no evidence of a cult in the Ramtha teachings. —This unsigned comment was added by 216.49.214.3 ( talk • contribs) 15:49, 6 April 2006.
Hello, everyone; Olivebranch here. I would just like to say a word about the content of this article: hogwash. The first descriptor is there because there is an entire section devoted to 'controversy', which to me is another example of cardstacking propaganda. The unencyclopedic descriptor is there because I think that we need to explore Ramtha here. This is not an article about J.Z. Knight. If it was, her name would be on the top of the page. So, if we could get an expert on this subject it would be greatly appreciated. Also, if we could explore Ramtha's life a little more in-depth (ex: his early life, great accomplishments, how long and where he lived, etc.), since I am thirsty for the knowledge of how he LIVED, not just his afterlife (even though that's cool too :-)].
Actually, there was a 1 year study done on Ramtha and they had a conference about Ramtha in the scientific community. I think its called The Ramtha Phenomenon, and the end result was that they didnt who or what Ramtha was, but they knew that a "decidedly non-local phenomenon" was happening here. Skeptics on Ramtha should read this first, because Ramtha was already studied, and the answer is there. Also, I read a comment here about Random Event Generators and how if Ramtha's teachings were true, the numbers would come out the way you wanted them..... TOO LATE! A scientist named Dean Radin already did that experiment and he found out that intention DID cause the numbers to go different than what was expected... 50,000 to 1 difference. I dont know about you, but Ramtha said all this, and now we are coming to find out that maybe he knows what he is talking about ---- Just a boy.
In what the bleep do we know, J.Z. Knights makes some glaringly ignorant assertions on Zero point energy. perhaps mentioning it and how obviously wrong her assertions are might add to the artcile. intuitors critic might be a good source to start with http://www.intuitor.com/moviephysics/bleep.html. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.75.33.118 ( talk) 03:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC).
...how can one person hold copyright over them? Nobody has legal ownership of King Arthur. I would think that he would have that of himself. But now he's dead if he existed, so who cares?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.228.54.78 ( talk) 04:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC).
Hi.
as discussion is ongoing and improvements made, I replaced the multiple tags with one single one, fixed a link and add category/infoboxes to connect it to other topics in this area.
Whether the beliefs are bunk or not, I really don't care, but they look inline with the medium's claims. Would an informed individual make the time to add some specific references and quotes, preferably from academic sources?
<ref name="author">{{cite book | last = lastname | first = firstname | title = | year = | quote = | publisher = | isbn = }}</ref>
Thanks and good luck ... the spirit of Queen Guinevere (Rightful Heir to the Crown of England) aka -- Lucyintheskywithdada ( talk) 08:38, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I have proposed that this page be merged with JZ Knight, as they seem to be covering the same subject; this article claims to be about Ramtha, but is really about JZ Knight (e.g. the Controversy section) and thus should be merged there. As far as I'm concerned, Ramtha is JZ Knight, and does not deserve a separate article: but even if you disagree, it's unarguable that Ramtha has been made famous by JZ Knight, and is only notable because of her. Having too separate pages seems unnecessary to me, and furthermore suggests that Ramtha is entirely separate from JZ Knight, which is quite clearly not the case. If you agree or disagree, please comment below. Terraxos ( talk) 03:55, 8 February 2008 (UTC)